and made the decision long before she made the announcement. it's been in the works for a long time. the timing is interesting. i'm told that she purposely waited until after all of the midterm races were concluded. we saw this two days the announcement came after senator raphael warnock won reelection. and that was very purposeful. she didn't want to be seen as interfering in any of the midterm races, but it will change a lot. look, she's going to -- i know that leadership and chuck schumer and others are insist ing that not much will change. they think she'll vote in a similar way. she'll no longer be part of the democrats. the majority is in tact, given warnock's win created more comfort to democrats. when it comes down to it, i'm told that she just wanted to be unburdened of the expectations

of her party. we have seen that as she's tried to broker deals in a bipartisan way. there's the reelection aspect. she gets rid of any idea of having a primary challenger now. >> this seems more about her effort in 2024 than the senate right now. alayna treene, thank you so much, and thank you to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we talked about everything urn the sun, and i was left with the impression that this is an intelligent passionate, compassionate, humble, interesting person, a patriotic person, but above all, authentic. >> a u.s. ambassador gives his impressions of brittney griner after helping bring home the wnba star who was locked up for ten months in russia. it comes as president trump admits he rejected a deal to release another american who was wrongfully imprisoned by the

kremlin. what we're learning this morning about a phone call between president biden and the president of ukraine last anything. also ahead, the latest from capitol hill as lawmakers have just five days to find a deal to prevent a government shutdown. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, december 12th. with us we have former white house press secretary now an msnbc host, jen psaki, the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, author and nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss, and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. thank you, all. >> richard haass, we're so sorry, but we have to start with what happened yesterday with the giants. i guess i should ask you, what happened with the giants yesterday? >> joe, we don't have to start there, just to be honest. it was, wow, they weren't even in the same zip code yesterday. probably the best team in the nfl against a team that had been

played way way over its head, and somehow the truth came out. it was ugly. could we like move on to any war story, really. >> he doesn't even want to talk about it. >> i don't think so. jalen hurts is just really become the surprise breakout star this year. the eagles are by and far, like you said, they're just on a different level than everybody else in the nfl. and i will say also jonathan lemire, it hurts to see tom brady fall this quickly, but my god, just think how far his star has fallen. just a brutal year. you actually have wide receivers looking at tom brady going, come on, it's not that hard of a pass to throw. brady has nobody to blame but himself. he's got receivers that he just can't execute. that's fine. he's like 67 or something.

nobody would have faulted him. he's got his aarp card. he's been in medicare for a couple of years. he should have just, you know what, gone to the big house. just like celebrate. he's another one of these guys that came back and plays one year too long. >> he's got those social security checks to bank on. last year, had a great year, second in the mvp voting. had a wonderful playoff game. that would have been a nice walk-off, and we thought he did. he said he was going to retire. but then he came back a few months later. hard to imagine he doesn't regret it. it's been a tough season professionally. that buccaneers team is not good. he has had moments of brilliance, including the comeback on monday night football but he wasn't good yesterday against a great 49ers defense, a defense that looks super bowl caliber, and as far

as jalen hurts, he's probably your nfl mvp with eagles and chiefs looking like the two best teams in the league. >> they're really good, and again, yeah, the bucs aren't a good team this year. i love tom brady. when those cataracts start coming in, willie, you don't have the vision to scan the field. >> leave him alone. >> it doesn't work out that well. while we're talking about numbers, let's talk about somebody going in the opposite direction. >> i know where you're going here. >> and that is joe biden. it seems to me the more on twitter or other parts of the internet, let's look into hunter biden, while they're doing all of that, while they're attacking joe biden for bringing an american home, actually, giving a damn about an american.

yeah. >> we'll get to that in a second. donald trump of all people letting the north korean brutalize and kill an american student, and then writing love letters as he said it to the guy who killed the american students. not giving a damn. >> i think he scurried off with the letters. >> we don't need lectures from a guy who lets american students get beaten up. while all of this craziness is going on on the far right, joe biden's numbers keep going up. rasmussen has him as 50. cnn has him going up higher than he's been for quite some time. is that just the effect of the midterm. what's going on there? >> well, i have to give a tiny plug for joe burrow. since you're talking about football, i didn't want to be left out. >> good for you. >> nobody can crash joe burro.

>> twitter is not america. 20% of the country is on twitter. when you see people fretting about things like bringing brittney griner home, which, by the way, is a positive story. i have been there two times where american citizens have been brought home. no deal is ever perfect. there's somebody who is given up in a deal. that's what happened here with the exchange with the russians. there is unfortunately often american citizens who don't come back in the deal, what happened with paul whelan. what i will tell you, also a good sign, trevor reid came home this summer. we had brittney griner come home last week. this means there's an open line of communication. you saw roger carstens say over

the weekend, his next thought is to get paul whelan back. i think the american people like seeing things get done, and that's what we're seeing happen now. >> and obviously anger from the whelan family, not at joe biden, but donald trump. said he didn't give a damn about their brother. never said anything about him. whether you're talking about russia, russia kidnaps paul whelan, they kidnapped an american student or north korea kidnaps an american student, beats him to death, and sends him home to die, and what does donald trump do? he keeps cozying up to the very people that kidnap americans, and whether it's vladimir putin or whether it's kim jong un, it's really sick and this is a guy, again, who is actually lecturing joe biden on bringing americans home. this is the thing, he doesn't

understand americans actually celebrate when other americans come home. sometimes it's not a perfect deal. ronald reagan had to deal with the iranians. sometimes it's not a perfect deal. americans celebrate. unless you're donald trump, the freaks on the far right that are trumpists who never said whelan's name once. never asked why donald trump was falling in love, writing love letters to a north korean dictator who beat an american student from ohio to death. maybe they don't get it, but americans get it. they believe americans should come home. and they're happy when they do. >> wnba star brittney griner is recovering after spending near ten months behind bars in russia. even as the white house does celebrate griner's release, official says they are not relenting in their efforts to

bring home paul whelan from russian captivity. his brother david is speaking out on why president biden was able to do something former president trump wasn't, to your point, bring the former u.s. marine home. >> i think we understood that there was -- there were really two options, one option for brittney griner to come home, and one option for nobody to come home, and i think president biden made the right choice. the trump administration was not prepared to or interested in working on wrongful detention cases, and the tools didn't exist during the first two years of policy detention. we are seeing that change. the biden administration is much more engaged in wrongful detentions. >> david whelan tweeted quote former president trump appears to have mentioned my brother paul whelan's wrongful detention more in the last 24 hours than he did in the two years of his presidency in which paul was held hostage in russia, zero, i

don't suggest he cares anymore now than he did then. and we learned that former president trump actually had a chance to bring paul whelan home from russia, but didn't. in a post on truth social, trump wrote in part, i turned down a deal with russia for a one on one swap of so called merchant of death for paul whelan. i wouldn't have made the deal for a hundred people in exchange for someone who has killed untold members of people. >> it is so rich, michael beschloss, this comes from the man who releases 5,000 taliban terrorists. >> i think he wanted to have a party with them. >> and invites the taliban to camp david on the anniversary of september 11th. so letting the leaders of the country that actually harbored al qaeda to allow the attacks on 9/11. so suddenly, this guy, again,

this guy lecturing us, as paul whelan's brother, he doesn't give a damn about paul whelan. he doesn't give a damn about anything but himself. when vladimir putin invades ukraine, he celebrates. calls putin brilliant, and unfortunately, a lot of people on the far right do, and i'm just wondering, michael, look at this entire episode, and talk about american presidents, how, you know, they -- a lot of times they look at this like marines look at warfare. you don't leave anybody out there. if you're americans, you bring them home. >> that's exactly what we do. thinking of what donald trump is saying, it's so ridiculous, and it's so ugly, and it's so un-american, and out of our tradition, just as you were saying, that it reminds me of

the saying, we survived four years of that presidency. we're now watching this ridiculous side show of him running for president again, just grasping at any opportunity to get into the news. here's a real life demonstration of the saying that the first time was tragedy, the second time looks like ugly. 60 years ago this year, the soviet convicted spy, rudolph able was released on that bridge in germany for the u2 american pilot, francis gary powers who has been imprisoned by the russians and i just checked this the other day to make sure i was right. almost unanimously people said, yes, we hated able, but this was a good trade, something for america's benefit. that was the way it was in this country. but to have a president, an ex-president like trump, it's even hard to use the president in the same sentence as someone who made these accusations about this trade for brittney griner.

thank god that she is home, you know, there's a tradition in this country when this happens, everyone says thank god for those who benefitted, let's go on, all to the glory of america. >> to the glory of america as so many people, so many people, i mean, they celebrate when things go well with americans. and they celebrate when other americans come home unless, again, you're so twisted by ideology. you can always have a debate about hostages. it's legitimate. this happens with every government. it happens in the united states where we make these decisions, and usually one leader doesn't second guess another leader because they understand things are always different. it doesn't just happen with the united states. it happens with canada, and of course there's a fascinating piece in the "new york times" this morning, richard haass. max fisher talks about how

countries that decide to take this approach of kidnapping, kidnapped citizens from other countries are the ones who ultimately end up paying. we can of course look at major case, 1979, the iranian hostage crisis. they never recovered from that. they have been an isolated pariah on the international scene. you look at what china did with canadians twice, and they seize three canadians, and before they did that, because they wanted an executive release, chinese executive release, before they did that, canada was going to do -- go into billion dollar trade deals. we're trying to open up trade and have a more positive relationship with the chinese. after that, chinese lost all of those trade deals, and you had the canadians that were leading actually the response against china to have a more united

approach against china's expansion. so the costs of these deals in the long run, aren't they usually pretty devastating against the countries that break international norms? >> absolutely. it's one of the things that makes a pariah a pariah. look at the countries involved in this sort of stuff. it's china, russia, north korea, iran. that's not exactly a group you would want to be a member of. this is the pariah international, and this is one of the ways they define themselves, and whatever the details of particular exchanges. in the long run, the damage this does to relationships, economic ties, diplomatic ties is enormous, so on something like this, you know, we can argue the details of letting this bad guy out, but does this fundamentally change anything about russia's relationship for the better with the united states, with europe. does it advance russia's goals with ukraine? absolutely not.

this just further pushes russia off to the sidelines of international relations and in the long run, it actually makes it even more difficult, i would argue, to normalize things with russia, so long as they continue to do this sort of thing. this is another example where they don't respect the norms of international law. >> with paul whelan and others being held, i know jonathan capehart's show yesterday said there would be a meeting at the white house today about paul whelan. what more do you know about what the white house plans to do next. they have certainly claimed they will not give up on remaining hostages around the world, and paul whelan who was sort of left behind in this deal. >> we heard from president biden at the end of last week, celebrating the return of brittney griner, acknowledging there was more work to be done. aides portrayed it as a difficult decision. it was one or none.

one hostage released, prisoner released. and the russians weren't willing to talk whelan yet, accusing him of espionage. the white house is not giving up hope. we're going to hear from national security adviser jake sullivan who's leading the meeting today. he's going to be speaking to the press this afternoon for an update on where things stand with whelan, and there is some degree of hope within the white house that despite the war in ukraine, there is at least this channel of communication that the washington and moscow are at least talking about this, about prisoners, and in fact, we even heard from president putin over the weekend in an otherwise rather blustery appearance but said that, yes, he thought there could be other deals made to release americans in exchange for russians. now, what that means precisely, we'll have to find out. we heard from the whelan family express a hopeful note, they believe paul whelan can come home at some point. the administration has vowed to make that happen. this is certainly something that's going to remain at the

top of the president's agenda in the weeks ahead. >> so, jen, tell me how it works. i know a lot of people are asking how the back and forth works with the united states negotiating with the russians. i know obviously uae played a key role and acted an as intermediary, but are we to assume there's also these back channel conversations, negotiations going on regarding ukraine? >> i will say that as it relates to detained americans, what is so hard, and what's going to be so hard for everybody in the weeks and months ahead is that the united states, even with jake sullivan out today will see very little because the challenge is the more you say, the more you put the possibility of bringing the american home at risk. i remember, joe, i was at the state department when "the washington post" journalist was

detained in iran, and we could say hardly anything. i had one or two lines i could say every day, we're doing everything we can to bring jason home. it felt unsatisfying even to me, but we did that because behind the scenes, you have people like negotiators, intermediaries, other countries who are working with us to strike deals and bring people home. what is important to also remember and a couple of people have touched on this, including richard haass, while there is this channel that putin has confirmed is open to have conversations about other american citizens, he is still drinking champagne while talking about targeting civilians in ukraine. this is the complicated nature of international diplomacy. they are targeting civilians in ukraine while there is still a conversation happening about bringing paul whelan, an american citizen home from russia. >> yeah, it's so complicated. >> it is. and michael beschloss, of course

you've resident about the war before. you know, fdr, harry truman. they had to deal with perhaps along with hitler the most evil leader of the 20th century. joseph stalin. but they did it, understanding who he was, because they had to award a win. >> that's exactly right. and, you know, as has been said many times, you know, if an american president has to disqualify dealing with any other power because they have a bad leader, there's not going to be too many diplomatic relations between this great superpower and others. and the other thing is, you know, jen was talking about bang channels, that's something that's turned out to be extremely important in history, just two quick examples. 1961 and 1962, jfk diffused the berlin wall crisis, and also the cuban missile crisis by having

his brother bobby meet with a lower level diplomat who was actually a soviet intelligence officer in washington, and make certain deals and assurances that spared us probably having 60 million human beings in the northern hemisphere, incinerated in nuclear war. we have seen the tip of icebergs as jen was saying. for instance, when richard nixon went to china, that looked as suddenly he sent a postcard to beijing, and mao had written why not come to china. there had been talks for years, not only under nixon, but kennedy and johnson, and the polish ambassador and pakistanis, this the way a great power behaves. when you have someone like donald trump, a chronic campaigner, throwing rocks at the president who tries to do this, despite the fact, as you

mentioned, that trump has been amazingly tolerant of putin, and what he has done in ukraine far beyond the tolerance of most americans, including many of his supporters, that's what we're dealing with. we're in a politics we can't take very seriously. all right, here's a look at some of the other headlines making news this morning. a libyan man accused of being involved in making a bomb that destroyed pan a.m. flight 103 over scotland 34 years ago is now in united states custody. two years ago the u.s. government charged abu ajilah mazud for his alleged involvement in the bombing. the attack on december 31st, 1988 killed 270 people as the bomb detonated over the scottish town of lockerbie. one was convicted, the other

acquitted. libyan media reported last month that he had been abducted from his home by armed men. he is expected to make an appearance in washington, d.c. in a courthouse there today. a rioter who assaulted police officers at the capitol during the january 6th insurrection has been sentenced to five years behind bars. 35-year-old ronald sandlin of tennessee was sentenced friday after he pleaded guilty in september over conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and assaulting, resisting or impeding officers. authorities say he adhered to the qanon conspiracy theory and traveled with two other men from tennessee to d.c. with a rental car full of weapons. prosecutor says he let the mobs charge against officers at the capitol, shoving and attacking officers, he also smoked marijuana in the rotunda of the capitol. and stole a book from an office. >> and michael beschloss, we

were talking about democracy and obviously a lot of concerns over the last six years, the election deniers, the people that were trying to stop peaceful transition. all of the lies that were told about the 2020 election. we keep seeing these rioters, these insurrectionist, these terrorists are getting convicted, sent to jail because they believe donald trump's lies. you see time and again, the supreme court, this very conservative federalist society-led supreme court time and time again. when it comes to the rule of law regarding donald trump, regarding elections, straight down the line, they rule for the rule of law.

i'm just curious how you're feeling post election, with all the election deniers losing, with terrorists, insurrectionists, whatever people want to call them, going to jail for what they did on january 6th. for the federal courts holding strong time and time again, whether it's the 11th circuit or the u.s. supreme court, conservative courts, wondering if you're feeling that americans have initially passed perhaps the most severe part of the test of democracy. >> totally agree with you. i have totally enjoyed last month, not because democrats won, but i knew, and you, mika knew, and joe and others on our. what if those election deniers had been elected as governors, secretaries of state, members of state legislatures, key ones in those five or six battle ground

states that will be crucial, for instance, in 2024. we would have lost a lot of our democracy because we would be looking at a 2024 election that would be sabotaged by people in states who don't want to see the winner installed as president and other offices. the other thing you were saying, absolutely true about the supreme court. this is a court that is one-third appointed by donald trump. if you think about it, you know, this lawless marginal figure appointed three justices on the supreme court who are making decisions. yet, despite that, they are ruling in favor of the rule of law. that's the way it's supposed to work, and just in case they don't, you know, for instance, the respect for marriage act of this past week, congress said we're worried about the supreme court. clarence thomas, you know, made a little comment about perhaps

marriage equality should be revisited, so the congress rolled in, assigned by president biden, that not only will we preserve marriage equality but marriage between people of different races and other rights we're entitled to. that's the way the system is supposed t work. as i said and as others have said, anyone who ever bets against the american democracy will lose if you look through american history. sometimes we take a step back, but we always step forward. >> michael beschloss, thank you very very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," republican kari lake launches a new legal fight after losing the race for governor of arizona. plus, we'll be joined by arizona congressman ruben gallego who has teased a possible senate run in the wake of kyrsten sinema leaving the

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we don't like to say perfect, but it's pretty perfect. booking.com, booking.yeah. it's 32 past the hour, a live look at the white house dressed up for christmas, you can barely see it as the sun has yet to come up over washington. time to get to work, everybody. we have great must reads this morning. the "wall street journal" has a new opinion piece entitled "why the smart party never learns", and it reads in part this, the most obvious change in american politics this century is the sorts of voters along educational lines. the democrats are increasingly

the party of educated urban elites. the gop belongs to white working class. if you're on the right, you simply can't isolate yourself from the habits and attitudes of left liberal progressivism. they are everywhere. the conservative voters who follows nothing but right wing accounts on social media still sees cnn as a captive audience at airports. he attends a concert by the local symphony orchestra and has to listen to a four-minute lecture about systemic racism or climate change before the music starts. there is no bubble. no silo for such person. the left liberal outlook as triumph across american culture, but that has robbed progressives to criticism themselves or doubt their own righteousness. progressives have become, if i could put it bluntly, incurious

and lazy. wow. >> by the way, i've got to say -- >> what? >> this is one of the most fascinating op-eds i have read in a long time. >> incurious and lazy? >> this is a guy talking about people living in a bubble who is perhaps in the biggest bubble of all. first of all, as a southern baptist from the deep south who went to southern state schools, i can tell you the left, i mean, if you think the left owns the media and academia and hollywood now, grow up when i grew up when you had three news channels, "the new york times," "the washington post." i mean, seriously. and i went to southern state schools. i didn't have a single conservative professor. this was like 30, 40 years ago. like things have changed and

actually, there has become more ideological diversity now than ever before. but, jen, this is what almost made my head explode. i'm reading this, and you have a guy in 2022 saying, oh, people on the right, they can't live in a bubble like progressives. and you're right, a lot of progressives live in bubbles, and they usually lose elections unless they're from the most woke parts of brooklyn. progressives live in bubbles, we'll all admit it. it drives us crazy but to suggest that people on the right wing can't live in bubbles, like he's writing this at the age when a lot of my friends from earlier days, a lot of my church members from earlier days, a lot of my family members, still family members, they come at me

with election denying nonsense. we hear people talking about jewish lasers seriously. we hear people talking seriously about some italian dude with a satellite that stole elections. we hear people talking about bamboo and ballots in arizona. we hear people talking about that suitcase lie in georgia. we have people that get their news. a lot of them get their news from chinese religious cults that run sites in america. we have people, they get their news from the plandemic. all of these anti-vaxx lies that like hippies in san francisco used to talk about. now they're in these extraordinary bubbles. and for somebody on the right to say, oh, we on the right, we can't live in bubbles, i have never seen people live in a bubble the way people on the far

right, the trump right live now. and let me say it again, for my friends and family members living on the far right, i'm trying to do you a favor. you keep losing elections when you live in that bubble. get out of the bubble. stop fearing people who actually think differently than you, and like me, learn from them. jen, i'm sorry, that's my speech for today. that anybody in the "wall street journal" could say, oh, the right, they can't live in a bubble. all of my friends and family members, the conspiracy theories are bizarre and they live in this bubble that causes them to lose elections year in and year out. >> yes, i mean, if you're writing with a $200 pen on like long form at "wall street journal" op-ed, you may be a little disconnected from where the country lives. bubbles exist, to your point, joe, on all sides.

it's not just on the right. there's bubbles on the left. what is very true of the right, which you were just touching on is that there is this belief that nothing will change in the country, that people will not evolve, and that is just flat out wrong. and republicans pursue the same right wing policies at their own detriment. look, i worked for john kerry in 2003 when he ran for president. back then, which was less than 20 years ago, we had to find a slow bird to shoot to prove that he was for guns. you would never do that in democratic primary right, today, it's also true in that same election, and i bet you, joe and mika, you remember this, and other people on the panel, there were about a dozen states where gay marriage was a divisive issue hurting democrats on ballots across the country. the country has evolved, and if you are disconnected from that, on those issues specifically, and others, and if you're in this right wing bubble, you are

going to lose because you're going to be out of whack with the country. we saw that play out in such a way, with election denialism. everybody in the bubble on the right wing thought could not be defeated and it was a little over a month ago. >> at some point we're going to need to learn about the process about the measure of the speed of a bird to make it appropriate for john kerry to shoot it out of the sky. this will require a deep dive in a later snow. >> how do you do that, and how much practice did it take? >> back then in 2004, everybody had a barn jacket on the democratic side, right, one of those looking rural barn jackets, even if that wasn't actually who they were, and everybody went out and showed they could shoot a gun. that would never happen in a democratic primary today. >> certainly that has changed. to jen's point, there are bubbles on the left as well. it seems this is a particularly pervasive problem, joe, on the

right. this is the republicans now, it is going more extreme and the circle is getting smaller. and it's almost like they're talking to themselves often in code, like the big guy, plandemic, things that most of the country doesn't know unless you're an extremely online person on the right, subscribe to qanon or watch certain fox news prime time evening opinion hosts and they become more extreme and out of step with the american public, on issues like abortion. on issues like guns. it's certainly on issues like democracy, and that's where the democrats and the white house in particular have zeroed in on, trying to paint them as out of step, and that's going to be the play book going forward, as the calendar turns to january and republicans have control of the house, that is what they're going to be talking about, how extreme and out of touch and insular the republican party has become, and a slow moving self-destruction of the gop.

>> let's compare what this incoming republican house is talking about. >> oh, my god. >> and what our republican house in 1994 was talking about. >> can't say some of it on the air, actually. >> you look now, and they're talking of course about hunter biden's laptop. they're in the middle of this twitter thing that i swear i've tried to read through a thousand times and figure out exactly what they're trying to prove, and if they're proving anything, what, maybe that twitter made decisions that they didn't like. well, facebook does the same thing. again, whether they're right, the obsession with hunter bide biden's laptop, being angry an american got released. and marjorie taylor greene giving a speech this past weekend, if she had run the january 6th revolution, they would have won, and her exact

quote, i want to get it right, it would have been armed. it would have been armed. now, they think that's cool. and here's the thing, my dear sweet republican brothers and sisters, you think you're owning the libs when you say that. and maybe, yes, there will be people on msnbc that will scream and yell and you'll get their heads to spin. that's fine. they'll be preaching to the choir. the choir will like it. fox news preaches to the choir. the choir likes it. i'm talking about the swing voters that made you lose in 2017 and 2018 and 2019, and 2020 and made you lose again in 2022 and radically underperform by 40 or 50 seats in 2022 in the house. and richard, you compare that to '94. yeah, gingrich obviously a very

complex character, let us say, but in '94, we came in, people said, what are you running for. running for balanced budget amendment, running regulatory reform, running to bring down the costs of health care. he have ten things we are going to limit, term limits, we were for term limiting committee chair people. we were for term limiting the speaker of the house. we were for making the loss of washington apply to the rest of the country. i could go on and on and on. here i am 30 years later. i can still remember the ten things, what are you for, and every one of them was an issue that americans said, that sounds good. and these clowns are running around talking about bringing guns to january the 6th. obsessing over twitter. hunter biden's laptop, and just the craziest of things that don't relate to quality of life, that don't relate to making our

streets safer. that don't relate to inflation. >> that's absolutely right. the only thing you left off the list. they're also going after tony fauci who's stepping down after a long distinguished career of public service. that's what's so odd about this. you just had the midterms and you have a set of issues, the border issue, inflation and the economy, the fact that millions of americans have never come back to work, crime in the cities. if there was a moment republicans could run on the issues, you would think this is it, instead they're dealing with hot house issues. what worries me about this moment in american history is you have respective sets of bubbles. here in new york, you've got one party government in new york city. and what worries me is this is a country, when you think about it, was founded on an idea. the idea is certainly things that were held in common. now everybody has their own media ecosystem, their own

social media ecosystem, they live in communities and go to churches that tend to be one dimensional, they watch fox. people we no longer have the social mobility we did. i do worry there's a separateness in the political science literature, sorting, that increasingly we're leading separate lives in america, and i actually think that's really danger for the fabric of this society. it's one of the arguments for things like national service and so forth. we need some ways to get americans out of their separateness and to give them some common experiences. if not, we're going to continue to drift apart. i think that's really unhealthy for the future of this country and for our ability to govern and live together. >> great point. >> it is a great point. and again, what we have all said here is there are bubbles on both sides, bubbles on the left. there's bubbles on the right. but when you obsess, when your leaders are inside that bubble,

you lose elections. the trump bubble has cost republicans time and time again. in 2012, republicans were in a bubble as well. mitt romney, everybody on the campaign, they watched fox news all day. they looked at gallop polls. they thought they were ahead of barack obama by eleven points. they read drudge. they were certain late into the evening they were going to win. i remember karl rove saying those numbers can't be right because even karl rove was inside a bubble, an information bubble. he's not in that bubble now, but we can get in our bubble if we're not careful, but right now, it's the right that's losing election after election after election. >> why can't they see that? what are they saying inside their bubble about their elections? >> jen, i sometimes wonder, and i'm serious about this.

i sometimes wonder whether they would like to think they're owning the libs more than winning elections. like i've said it before on this show, like, my parents taught me, like, to win. there was no losing. i remember one time i had like a 450 average in senior leagues. >> they were a little hard on you. >> i struck out with bases loaded to end a game. i threw the bat down. i went to the car, i sat in the backseat, and i said, i'm just going to quit. my mother driving off coolly and calmly says, well, if you're going to embarrass yourself and your family that way, i wish you would. right? this is the same family that got angry when i only got 73% of the vote in my first reelection vote. like there were no participation trophies, but that's what i used to say republicans are like. it was about winning.

right? >> maybe they want to be a constant underdog. >> i don't understand why they're more interested in being victims than winners. we're seeing it time and time again, jen, and i'm serious, it's baffling to me. >> yeah, first of all that tough love parenting as the parent of a 4 and 7-year-old, is no more, joe. beyond that, now, we just like love on them and ask them what they want to do to make themselves feel better about their baseball game. >> exactly. >> one of the developments, of course, has been the rise of twitter, social media, as a force for how people also raise money. right? so the extremism, extreme comments, crazy things people are saying on the right has been incentivized, because they get more likes, they get more followers. they can send out outrageous fundraising e-mails to raise more money. and they have decided a number of republicans, not all, for a

long period of time, and some in a different way, less evil on the left is that is the way to effectively run campaigns. but what we have seen that has disputed that, of course, is how a number of candidates ran successfully. look at raphael warnock who just won last week. he was not thinking about how to be extreme online and raise money that way. he went out, he went to every part of the state, including red counties where he had no probably business of going, where there were hardly any democrats, he campaigned his heart out, kept his head down, talked about the issues, and he won. the model can be that. i think more democrats hopefully saw that as a model. on the republican side, to your point, they are running to satisfy twitter. to satisfy the extreme, to send out fundraising e-mails to their detriment. >> jen psaki, thank you so much

for coming on this morning. the artemis moon mission ends with a splash down. nasa administrator bill nelson will join us with what's next for space exploration. and the miami dolphins get a roughing the passer penalty. >> do you know what you call that, it's a tackle. this is not a roughing the passer. seriously? >> a little hard on him. >> no, lemire, help me out here, this is ridiculous. >> we'll take a look at what happened. >> we're going to ask lemire and haass and talk about the giants. >> "morning joe" will come right back. >> wow, the giants got flushed. d . sirloin salisbury steak and all-natural salmon. perfect for lunch or dinner. only at ihop. download the app and earn free food with every purchase. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪

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from the 24. he's got heat on this one. he's got knocks.

touchdown. the fake, the throw, all alone for the touchdown, trenton erwin. >> up the middle, into the end zone for the touchdown. vikings territory, goff going deep, on first down, and it's caught. and take it in for a touchdown by d.j. >> second and 11, lawrence looking deep in the end zone. touchdown. hurts, lofts it for smith. it's a touchdown. devonte smith. >> he's missed the past seven games with surgery. first and goal, tries and scores. >> see what andy reed wants to do with something like that. it plays to the opposite side. mahomes will chuck it ahead.

it's caught. has the next gear. touchdown. >> for tampa bay, they're going to run it to mccaffrey right up the middle. mccaffrey for 6. >> a fake to foreman, and a throw and a catch and a touchdown. >> those are some of the biggest touchdowns scored by winning teams across the nfl yesterday. the league leading eagles are now the first team to clinch a spot in the playoffs after beating the new york giants, 48-22. was expecting a good game there. didn't get it. the l.a. chargers hosting the miami dolphins on sunday night football. held the dolphins to 219 yard. quarterback justin herbert, and a touchdown, the 23-17 victory moves l.a. into position for the berth ahead of the new york jets. that will be short lived if the

patriots beat the cardinals tonight. a lot to talk about. jonathan lemire, deshaun watson experiment not going well in cleveland. the texans, what a heartbreaker, you knew they were going to end up losing that game even though they led most of the way. the eagles, incredible, just an incredible team. i just got to say, how about those lions, though they are1 in 5, i was asking jack, sitting watching the lions, how does a 1 in 5, 1 in 6 team look like one of the most exciting teams in football. they are right in the hunt, and they took down a 10-2 vikings team yesterday. >> a fraudulent vikings team, doesn't take away from how good the lions have been, an explosive offense. they have had that most of the year. jared goff, reborn as the rams

qb who lost the super bowl a couple of years ago, pretty limited. now the defensive line has picked up. they have a ton of draft picks coming, including that matthew stafford trade that got them goff. the rams won a super bowl with the rams are one of the worst teams in the league and the lions get their pick. they're going to get an early pick from the rams. they are set up to be a force going forward. it would be fun, great to see detroit have a good team again. you mentioned the browns, off season baggage, coming with the deshaun watson deal, a huge contract, he doesn't lose much when suspended and he has been down right terrible in the first two games with cleveland. >> he has been terrible. when a team tries to look the other way on a character issue as bad as deshaun watson has, it

never pays off, and certainly not paying off here. i want to show you this roughing the passer call. you have been an envoy to northern ireland. you have settled disputes. settle this dispute for me, if you will. >> make the call. >> you tell me what this defensive line could have done differently. how is that roughing the passer? >> not only he couldn't have done anything different, he shouldn't. there's one thing i understand to protect quarterbacks, but you might as well turn this into flag football. and there's just nothing wrong with this. actually, the nfl has a real officiating problem this year. there's a degree of shall we say inconsistency that i think has got to be addressed. the idea that something like this happens is preposterous. >> it's ridiculous. what you call that is gravity. a guy is going to tackle somebody, and yeah, gravity is going to pull a 320 pound

lineman to the ground. we're not going to talk, richard, about the giants other than to just say that the eagles are the best team in football. but really quickly, before we go on to the other football, i just really quickly want to ask you about the front page article about growing unrest among the young in china. what do you make of it? >> that's a really interesting story. it's quite a segue. it's a really unrest in new york, unrest in china. >> show yourself, baby, come on. >> the problems in china go beyond the zero covid. you've got tens of millions of young people unemployed. and even more, in some of these authoritarian countries, you see it in russia, a lot of people are voting with their feet. a million have left. you see what's going on in china. you see the protests in iran. these younger people see no future in these authoritarian countries. they're pariahs, isolated from

the rest of the world. they don't have much economic opportunity. life is boring. life is limited and these authoritarian countries haven't figured out how to deal with that in this age of social media. it's actually, i think, a really urn appreciated situation. north korea might be the only country that can kind of get away with it. look at price they pay for it. look at the poverty. look at the isolation. the chinas, the irans, the russias can't quite control things to that degree. what they are seeing is increasing frustration. they are losing the next generation. it's not quite clear that these regimes are long-term sustainable. all three are ultimately in play. >> yeah, so front page of the "wall street journal" has a story about how ukraine levels a hotel that's used to house russian troops. obviously this war is growing more fierce by the day. the journal also talking, richard, about a topic we

discussed offline, and that is the united states and european allies, how are we standing shoulder to shoulder moving forward into the winter? >> i think we're okay in the short run. underneath the surface, joe, there's a really uneasy difference of opinion, and the question is what's the definition of success here? is it that ukraine be an independent sovereign entity? does it have to recover every last inch of its territory going not just to 2015, and 1991. does it have to recover arms using long-term sanctions and diplomacy. i think this shows a real unease, a lack of firm consensus. i think over time, this is obviously something putin is look at. whether some of the splits in the west come out. i think these are legitimate issues. we can't say if you raise these questions you're unprincipled or unpatriotic. i think there's real issues about how do define success, what's our time line, what are

the means to achieve it. under the surface, what's there, sooner or later we're going to have to success these more directly? >> it doesn't just break one away, like europe wants to be more permissive than the united states. you look at the baltic states, you look at poland, of course finland, or actually going to take -- we can already predict, they're going to want to take a tougher line against russia than even the united states. you ask any leaders of those countries that i just mentioned, how do you define victory, and it's all russian troops are out of ukraine. >> every inch. >> every inch. there's no exception to that. the united states is not going to take as absolutist a position, just like countries in central europe are. explain how this is not just sort of a u.s. versus europe, that you actually have divisions inside of europe. the further you are away from

russia, perhaps some more permissive you might be on what those settlement terms might be. so there are going to be a lot of countries pushing and pulling to try to get ukraine's ear for any settlement that might come this spring. >> 100%, you have splits within europe. you have splits within the united states. again, whether every square inch of territory has to recover, if so through the use of military force. you've got splits about war crimes, about accountability. about the willingness to still do business with putin. you've got economic reparations issues, whether that should be part of the mix. so i think, you know, all of this is there. these are legitimate subjects and putin has reintroduced threats. we'll exacerbate conversations. the question is going to be how demanding, how aggressive are we to be in our definition of war aims, now that he has reintroduced the nuclear threat. this never gets resolved, and i

think on both sides of the ocean, these are real, and these are serious issues. >> richard haass, thank you very much. as we dive right in to the second hour of "morning joe." one of the most prominent voices on the far right made alarming comments over the weekend about the attack on the capitol. >> and by the way, not just one of the most outspoken voices on the far right, but also one of kevin mccarthy's closest allies. she's emerged as one of kevin mccarthy's closest allies, and him getting the speakership. georgia republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene gave a speech at the new york young republican club on saturday night. she brought up a number of topics, some of them very disgusting, and pornographic and then the topic of january 6th, and past accusations that she gave capitol tours to donald trump's supporters in the days leading up to the insurrection.

greene then reportedly said quote then january 6th happened and next thing you know i organized a whole thing along with steve bannon. greene went on to say, i will tell you something, if steve bannon, and i organized that, we would have won, not to mention it would have been armed. as joe said, her comments matter because of her influence with the ultra conservative freedom caucus and the group's ability to block kevin mccarthy's bid to become speaker of the house. >> jonathan lemire, as you were talking about earlier, at the end of your show, "axios" is reporting that she has been working very closely, very closely with kevin mccarthy, and she is now one of kevin mccarthy's most important allies in becoming speaker, and this is a woman who had said, you know, if she had been in charge of the

january 6th riots, they would have won, and they would have been armed. that's kevin mccarthy's republican party. >> one of mccarthy's top lieutenants. mccarthy has made a play to the far right of the republican house caucus since january 6th. since he condemned briefly donald trump. and he has realized he needs to curry favor with the right in part in order to make sure that donald trump is still on his side to support his speaker ship bid. he has spent now nearly two years trying to down play some of the terrible things the extremists have said, to not punish them, when other leaders would have dolled out strict committee assignments or punished republican members for saying or doing some of the things they did. instead, he has placated them, wooed them, courted them because he knows he needs their support, and marjorie taylor greene knows

that, and she knows she has a lot of power coming in. she's trying to garner support for mccarthy to get him across the finish line, to become speaker. he will be in her debt and her power will only increase, and that what we just heard, those terrible remarks, that will be given a place of prominence in the republican party as it takes control of the house in a matter of weeks. >> we've got a great group to talk about this, msnbc contributor, mike barnicle joins us, adrienne elrod, and former aide to house speaker paul ryan, and house speaker john boehner, brendan buck, now an msnbc political analyst. good to have you all on board this morning. >> brendan, you know about house leadership races and the deals

people make and the deals people walk away from. kevin mccarthy is staking his speakership on a whom who says if she were in charge of the january 6th riots, her side would have won, and they would have been armed. how does that define kevin mccarthy moving forward if he continues to cozy up to somebody who's talking about an armed insurrection? >> you got to go back and look at the fact that kevin mccarthy was inches away from being speaker in 2015, had it taken away from him by the freedom caucus, he has vowed that's not going to happen again. it's the far right threatening him. he needs somebody to go in there, and you're talking about envoys, marjorie taylor greene is his envoy to the people on the far right. his strategy from the beginning is give them anything they want. my jaw dropped i remember thinking about when he named jim jordan to be on the intelligence committee, if you remember during impeachment. jim jordan is going to be the chairman of the judiciary

committee. marjorie taylor greene is going to get his committees back. he doesn't have any other path forward other than giving them what they want. they're going to make a bunch of demands, his argument is i have given you everything. there's nothing else you can ask for me, and hope the rest of the conference loses patience with them. >> mike barnicle, it wasn't so long ago that steve king had his committee assignments taken away from him by republican for saying things that look very mild compared to what marjorie taylor greene said this weekend. and again, you're something talking about an insurrection, talking about how it should have been armed. >> you know, joe, there seems to be a consensus that kevin mccarthy is of limited ability, and he has made so many deals thus far, just listening to brendan reminded me of this, he has made so many deals in the past three or four years in his pursuit of becoming speaker, he can no longer remember what deals he made.

if you want to know the future of the republican party as you were discussing articulately last hour, take a look at the cover of the "new york post," "eyes on the spies," the intelligence community is pursuing the hunter biden story. if you're out there worried about your heating oil bill, your grocery bill, the status of your kids in school. >> they can't help themselves. >> we have to get to the bottom of the hunter biden story. we have to bring in clapper and brennan and find out why they lied. >> haven't we seen this before, they go after joe biden's remaining son. people like joe biden. we've gone through this. haven't we gone through this? >> the thing is, let the chips fall where they may. if hunter biden has done anything wrong, the doj is

investigating him. let the chips fall where they may, but the singular obsession, as i said before, they're in a bubble, and it causes them to lose. as everybody knows, the "new york post" is the official paper of "morning joe." i will say they got way ahead of themselves on durham's hilariously bad investigation just like the "wall street journal" and some op-ed writers. every time they go down this path and they want to investigate the investigators, they want to attack the fbi, they want to attack the cia, they want to attack the intel community, it never pays off for them. and jim, if you look at this, the obsession, again, the obsession among these house republicans on hunter biden's laptop, the obsession on twitter, adrienne. the obsession on january 6th because they think we're

training the rioters, the insurrectionists. and then you've got one of the most important players in getting kevin mccarthy the speakership, saying her regret is that they didn't bring guns to the insurrection. i mean, again, this is just proving my point. republicans are in a bubble. they're going to keep losing elections because they're not talking about inflation. they're not talking about health care costs going up. they're not talking about how hard it is for first time home buyers to get a house. they're not talking about the kitchen table items that matter the most to americans who decide elections. >> yeah, joe, you're exactly right. news flash to marjorie taylor greene and kevin mccarthy, the tactics you have been using, the rhetoric you have been espousing over the past six years has not been working. joe, you talked about this time and time again on this show.

republicans have lost consecutively since 2015. every cycle has gotten worse. 2022 was not a good midterm cycle for them at all. historically a bad midterm cycle, and it doesn't seem like they're getting the memo. you have marjorie taylor greene using this crazy divisive dangerous rhetoric because you mentioned making lewd comments, pornographic comments. this is not what the american people told elected officials, politicians in washington that they wanted in the 2022 midterms. they told elected officials we want government to work. we want an effective and efficient government that's fighting for us that is working on the policies that matter to our american families. this is not what they stood for, and look, you know, i heard you guys talk earlier about president biden's numbers going up. his approval numbers going up significantly over the past few weeks. a lot of that has to do with the fact that americans are looking at what the republicans are

saying. they're saying our top priority is to investigate hunter biden's laptop. i think the more and more they try to get these frivolous matters out there and say this is what we want to talk about, meritless matters for that matter, it's only going to make biden's approval numbers going up. he is delivering for the american people, and that is what people signed up for in the 2022 midterms. >> now it's hunter and everybody else. do you remember their obsession, we have to get rid of obamacare and they had nothing. >> they had no alternative. >> they bring nothing. >> you can't beat something with nothing unless you're running against kari lake in arizona, and then you don't have to campaign. thank god for that. i say that as an american that loves democracy. >> she won. >> she won. that's fine. but usually you can't beat something with nothing. and to talk about just how lost

this republican party is intellectually. we go back to 2020, my former party, your party didn't even have a platform in 2020. they had no ideas other than let's just follow the reality tv show host. >> politics has become entertainment, and that's what you see with marjorie taylor greene. that's what happens when you elect an online troll to congress. ideas matter a whole lot less. i agree with adrienne. at large, the american people are not asking us to get to the bottom of the hunter biden's laptop. the problem for republicans is a lot of republican voters are asking that. that's the world a lot of members live in. they live in deep red districts where they're watching tucker carlson and sean hannity talk about this every night. that's what they're having to respect to this. i don't think kevin mccarthy thinks there's a national security threat from hunter

biden, and they're responding to voters. this is the stuff they're asking about. they can't break out of the cycle. we're going to continue to do things people don't care about. >> i came from a district that jerry falwell said was the most conservative district in america. you hold town meetings, talk to people about these things. they say things like they can pry my gun from my dead cold hands, you go, thank you very much for your comment. let me tell you what i'm doing on capital gains, and how i believe it's going to grow the economy. it's not that hard, and as long as they are captive to these bright red districts, and they can't do two things at once, they're going to keep losing, and they're talking now about guns on january 6th. they're going to try to help rioters and terrorists from january 6th. they're going to do all of these crazy extreme things. they're going to focus and

obsess on hunter biden's laptop. again, jonathan lemire, it's not like i'm hiding my cards here. i keep saying to my former republican brothers and sisters, i'm trying to help you win elections. >> they definitely are not listening. >> jonathan, if you can help me out here. >> here we go. >> help me out here. using this approach, this trump approach, help me out here. in 2017, did republicans win or lose the off year elections in virginia, and the local races in 2017. >> they lost. >> they lost. okay. 2017. let's go to 2018. the midterm elections. did they win or>>hey lost that . >> they lost. okay. hold on a second. >> you would think this would be over soon. >> so in 2019, there were governors races in places like louisiana, kentucky, the reddest of the red states, i'm sure they

won those, right, did they win or lose. >> checking here, no, looks like they lost. they lost. >> okay. that's a surprise. i'm sure they learned their lesson, though, by 2020 because they lost these governorships, and they lost the -- how did 2020 go, did republicans win or lose in 2020 using these tactics? >> i have no choice but to report that they lost again. >> okay. all right. so they lost in 2017, 2018, okay, by my calculations i'm really good at this, carry the three, divide by four. it looks like then donald trump would have been the first president since herbert hoover. >> biggest loser. >> to lose the house, is that the and white house in one term, right, so i'm thinking by 2022. i know kevin mccarthy was saying

he was going to win 60 seats. they're going to win by 60 seats. >> red wave. >> and the senate, i heard there's going to be a massive red wave, 2022, did they win or lose? >> they had historical trends in their favor, the party out of power rolls this those off year elections. that didn't happen. they captured. house by a couple of seats. the democrats actually -- >> by 60. >> the democrats increased their margin. no, it was a handful, joe, just a handful. the democrats increased their margin in the senate. >> if i'm not mistaken, they hasn't, like, lost, the sitting president had not had all of the senators for his party return since 1934, fdr, is that right? >> yeah. >> so it seems to me, jonathan, that these republicans that are living in this bubble, living in

this bubble. >> a bubble of loserdom. >> you would think that they would learn after 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, carry your four, over three, that's about six years of flat out losing. you would think they would learn by now, and serious question here, i got to believe the white house is just thrilled that they keep making the same mistake, they keep living in this bubble. and they must be pretty happy too, that biden's approval ratings are going up. >> during this exercise here, the republicans donald trump was compared to herbert hoover and the bidens were compared to fdr. that's a pretty good historical parallel. this white house would embrace that. yes, of course they are. they want the republicans to be as extreme as they'd like. they worry about the impact on the country. they worry about what that means

in terms of legislative gridlock. the republicans are painting themselves in a corner. this connects to our conversation last hour about the bubbles and how the republicans' bubble is getting smaller and more extreme, and it seems out of step with the rest of the american people. and this is the republicans have been trying now for six years to recreate what they had with the hillary clinton e-mails which they were able to, take the merits of the scandal off the table here, in terms of political tool, they were able to use it effectively by wikileaks and russia, to win in 2016. and they have been desperate to find a sequel to that ever since. they have settled on hunter biden's laptop, didn't work in 2020, it didn't work in the 2022 midterms. they're still going full steam ahead for 2023 and they risk being further out of touch than ever before. >> that's what i can't believe. the extremism, they seem to get

more extreme by the day, and mike barnicle, there are voices on the right. there are voices in the united states senate, republicans in the united states senate trying to bring the republican party back a bit more center to where swing voters will be more comfortable voting for them because it's not like swing voters are happy with progressives, and are like, hey, that's the direction i want to go. it's not. but democrats are feeding off of this republican extremism. we were critical actually of the democratic groups spending a lot of money for the most maga election denying people in the primaries but they did it and it worked. time and time again, the extremists that won the primaries lost. at this point, republicans should figure it out, wait, they're using our extremists against us. maybe we need to push these

people to the side. >> if you do the autopsy, and you just did a brief autopsy of the past several elections from '16 on, '16, '18, 2022, the lesson that has been unlearned by the republican party and continues right through up until this very moment, you can't win anything, really, if everything you do is based on two issues, resentment and revenge. and that's what they seem to be into at every level of the republican party. if it's not, you know, hunter biden's laptop, it's, you know, how did ms. griner get released, why did we do that. it's terrible. if you read some of the comments about both issues, uttered from elected republicans in the house and some in the senate, mostly in the house, you wonder, my god, do they not know how real people live, that people worry about fuel bills, and grocery

bills, their children in elementary school and high school, going to college, how can they afford these things. do they not realize there's real americans that don't care about hunter biden's laptops. they are happy that ms. griner was freed, finally released. it's a mystery. >> there's this obsession, they aim politically to own the libs, and end up just shooting themselves until the foot every single time. every single time. >> let's bring in jackie alemany into the conversation, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," and msnbc contributor. you coauthored a new article for the post entitled "congressional republicans divided on attacking trump mvgs investigations."

and those who have started to quietly inch away from the former president widened last week, as top gop leaders laid out the party's investigative priorities. the emerging split raises another sign of trump's uncertain position in the party. after a month in which he was widely blamed for a disappointing midterm and drew criticism for controversial statements. >> jackie, talk about the divide. what is it? >> yeah, well, we had an interview, my colleague, with senator lindsey graham, one of former president trump's most outspoken allies who distanced himself from the former president and said when he replaces chuck grassley as the ranking member on the senate judiciary committee he's not going to view his role as sort of an arm to defend the former president in terms of attacking the fbi and the department of justice.

you have james comer who's going to lead the powerful oversight committee which has subpoena power, and he'll also be a chairman as well, since the house gop is taking over the majority, and he told cnn in an interview that he also didn't view his priority to attack and continue to investigate the department of justice on their investigation into trump's mishandling of classified materials. that being said, there are still very loud voices. jim jordan, ron johnson, along with some new house gop members joining these committees who as brendan, i think, really, you know, points out in an insightful way, have bought into these perverted incentives to try to exploit the news cycle to attack targets that don't actually exist, and so, yes, this chasm is starting to split and get a little bit more noticeable. but at the end of the day, you're still going to see

attacks writ large against the fbi and the department of justice, sort of along the themes of politicalization at the department of justice, which does ultimately help the former president but, again, you are seeing some prominent former trump allies at least saying we're not going to explicitly attack some of the more criminal investigations that the department of justice is now looking at with regards to the former president. >> as a former republican, i campaigned in support of the intel community. we always would bring up the church commission, the church commission that we thought did damage to the intel community for years. it is so interesting, talk about just the changes. how you have republicans, the house republicans especially, the trump republicans, attacking institutions, attacking the fbi, the men and women of the fbi, attacking the department of justice. attacking the united states military saying they're woke and

some senators saying, i wish we were more like the russians. it's insanity. but, again, if you don't mind picking up on the theme, pick up on the theme on how discordant that is when you have formerly, a conservative party, and some of its leaders just obsess on attacking the intel community of the united states armed forces. >> it's hard to square the party that we were even ten years ago, that was running on strong national security. look, there are people, i think, in the house who do find this stuff uncomfortable and don't want to see the house go down this route. my problem is that those people don't tend so stand up for themselves. we had flurry of the moderates talking about how they're going to reassert their authority in the house. i have to shake my head at that. i have heard them say they don't like the direction we're going quite a bit but they never really do anything.

the tuesday group, you know, the governing majority they call themselves, rarely speak up for themselves, try to urge the party to go in a different direction. that's what i'm going to be looking for. the reality is republicans don't think we've had bad elections and that's the real rub here. republicans took away the 2016 election, you can ignore the middle, you can offend whoever you want, as long as you turn out enough base republicans. they interpreted that, again, as it's working for them, at least in the house it's working for them. they don't care who you offend. they don't care if the elites in washington think you should be protecting the intelligence community. they think the elites are attacking their constituents or at least the constituents think that. they have internalized the elections as wins for them, and that's the paradox we're facing. obviously they weren't good elections, from where they lived, in their district, the

type of politics they're playing is working for them. >> interesting. >> there's the democratic party, the house republican party and then the senate republican party because obviously senators, republican senators look at what's going on across the way and just roll their eyes and can't believe how much it's hurting their chances to retake the senate. >> except in reaction to this, you're seeing the house or the senate look a lot more like the house. you had a bunch of senators stand up and say they want to challenge mitch mcconnell, one of the few people in congress who is looking out at the bigger picture, who understands who you nominate in your primaries matters, and for the first time you had a public challenge to his leadership. that's stuff you see in the house. i don't see people learning lessons. they're looking to cast blame on other people. maybe the senate can right our ship here. obviously that was a very disappointing outcome, but there

are signs that's it's drifting the other way as well. >> brendan buck, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. and "the washington post's" jackie alemany, thank you as well for your reporting from the "washington post." >> you know, mika, it's almost like -- >> yeah. >> they don't hate losing as much as my mother did. >> well, they like mini winning. >> just like in certain areas. i don't know. i don't really see how -- >> when your district lose the country. >> it seems shortsighted, but still ahead on "morning joe," nasa administrator bill nelson joins us on the heels of the successful artemis mission. we'll talk to him about what it means for plans to put humans back on the moon. and the united states isn't the only country milwaukeeing -- making strides in space, a new initiative from the united

arab emirates. plus a look at the morning papers, including a new effort in one state to address a teacher shortage. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... ...for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor

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. time now for a look at the morning papers at 37 past the hour. in kentucky, the lexington herald leader reports that the government will stop subsidizing the covid-19 treatment pill paxlovid next year. nearly 6 million americans have taken the pill for free to prevent covid related hospitalization and death. health officials say it will result in fewer people receiving life saving treatments. in new jersey, the courier news reports that a task force has been created to counter a troubling trend of teacher shortages. it aims to boost the quality and quantity of the state's educational work force. among its members are a variety of school administrators and

representatives. the times union reports that new yorkers will soon be able to order cannabis products to their door steps. state regulators unveiled rules. deliveries can be made by bike, scooter or car. >> how are we going to get hilman into the attitude owe. >> he'll never make it. the atlantic journal constitution addresses the gas prices. >> thanks, biden. >> averaging $2.94. >> put a sticker on the pump. >> that's a 35% drop since prices peaked in june. by the way, on twitter, which i get on twitter, it looks different, it feels different. i don't know. i'm trying to figure it out. i don't think it's going to work out. >> but, you know, it looks different and feels different. everybody on twitter is talking about twitter. >> something is going on on the -- >> it's just kind of boring.

>> somebody tweeted they just landed in miami, and it is the worst airport they have ever experienced in their life. >> it's horrible. >> thanks, ron desantis, for your terrible airport, disgusting, urine on the floor. i'm not joking. he could do something. >> you think he could? >> yes, there are things you can do, ron desantis, to fix the miami airport. >> it's heinous. it rated near the bottom along with laguardia. >> they fixed up laguardia. >> jonathan lemire, did they fix up? >> you get in there, and you have to walk to pennsylvania. >> joe, you could use the walk. >> every time i land at laguardia, i'm going to see amish people taking the bags off because i'm in lancaster. we got to walk back.

i see harrisburg. >> it's good for you, the walk. i can put you in the suitcase and pull you, if you like. >> it's the longest walk. >> who thought of it. >> i love the walk. >> who said we're going to make a laguardia that stretches to lancaster county. >> i'm impressed that fort lauderdale's lobbying operation continues to score such points on this show as the alternative to flying into south florida. >> no, no, no get out. hold on a second. the three or four lowest rated airports. >> is fort lauderdale there too? >> yeah, fort lauderdale, miami, newark, and laguardia. >> thanks, ron desantis. >> if you're flying out of new york into south florida, lots of luck. >> so gross. >> here's the deal with laguardia, it was governor andrew cuomo push. >> oh, a governor did something. >> two things, as we say on the

show, two things can be true at once. laguardia is much nicer than it used to be, but also much bigger. that's a common complaint about how long it takes to get from one side to the other. they have those little carts. perhaps you could take a ride. >> you could ride a cart. >> i want to tell you of everybody here this morning, i'm at laguardia more than all of you combined, and i can tell you, if you've got one of those things on your phone counting your steps, your phone will explode going from gate to getting out of the airport. it's incredible. >> it's insane. >> you wonder, you worry about really elderly people getting to the gate and then getting from the gate back out to the airport to the corner to get a cab. the distances are almost overwhelming from the entry to the airport to the gate. >> it's absolute insanity that there are times that you can get

from midtown out to laguardia faster than you can get from the parking lot to your gate inside. again, whoever planned this out, thank god they're not in office anymore. four world cup teams remain in qatar. chaos as croatia scored an equal izer before eliminating the five time champions in penalties. it's what croatia does. argentina, had a two-goal advantage before the netherlands forced extra time. by the way, the set piece. i have never seen anything like it. but argentina would survive the shootout. moouch two wins away from the first title since 1986. that set piece, i have never seen anything like it. saturday's action started with a huge massive win defeating portugal to become the first african team to reach the semifinals.

a massive moment for them, and the defending champion france will continue its bid to repeat its title after beating england 2-1. such a sad, sad moment for western civilization. play resumes tomorrow afternoon. the semis between croatia and argentina, france will meet morocco on wednesday. let's bring in ceo of soccer box.com gary hopkins, the author of "star spangled soccer," and i will say, gary, despite the fact that it was sedon who brought me, pulled me into soccer in 2006, watching him in the world cup against brazil in the quarter finals, just extraordinary, other than the u.s., we're all in for england. what a heartbreaking game for you and for an entire nation of self-hating brits when it comes to soccer.

>> i've worked it all out, after 50 years of watching soccer in england, we're too polite. we had french beaten, most of the possessions, great shots, and goals. we dominated play for long periods, and somehow didn't sort of make the substitutions ands we needed to kill them off. that goal classic goal in front of the two top centers in the country, and maguire was unlucky there. it deflected off his shoulder. and harry kane, how to explain this, when it comes to penalties, and you know, you can't. i mean, that's hard to explain. >> it's also hard to explain, gary, and i'm not being facetious, the second that went over, i said that's going to follow him for the rest of his life. i mean, if you understand what

this game means in england. people can remember, i mean, remember missed penalty kicks. >> absolutely. >> but you said something that's fascinating that they had them beat. i came into this tournament thinking actually france was the best team in the tournament. thought they were going to win it all. i will tell you, england played better than france up and down the pitch. i was shocked. just like i'm used to cheering for the u.s., understanding they don't belong on the pitch with most teams. this year they did. i cheer for england, always knowing they're going to be a step down from brazil, a step down from argentina, a step down from the french. this year, england may have had the best team in the tournament this year. >> revolutionized the team after

brazil and the debacle there. the outlook, the personality, the youth, the style of the team. we had croatia, italy beat at wembley in the euros, didn't finish it off. we had france beat, and in my view, we were just a little bit too -- though we get we didn't win, we had them beat. they were the other world champions. they were clinical and ruthless. their first goal was a beautiful goal. it was a foul before that on soccer. look, you know, a definitely foul. a great first goal. second goal was bread and butter premiership goal. we played so well in that game. normally we give up hope because hope killed us in the past. with this group of players, there's a future for the team. he may stay, he may go. this is a young team. 2026 will be great. again, we should have won.

>> i hope he stays, i really do. it was quite a performance. by the way, i can say this as an american or outsider, horrible, horrible reffing. just horrible officiating. i cannot believe that a game on that level had as bad officiating, as bad reves that it had. but they did. jonathan lemire, i have to ask you. we have to bring up the set piece in the 100th minute, the dutch, the brilliant orange, what they were able to do in the 100th minute against argentina. just absolutely crazy. >> yeah, spectacular. i'm sure we'll see it again here. the beautiful pass. they were down 2-0. all out assault to try to get in. get one, make it 2-1. we're in extra time in the hundredth minute, the pass to set up through the line, kick into the empty corner of the

net. just a perfect pass. certainly, gary, france, england was the highlight, but there are plenty of other stories from the weekend. renaldo's international career likely over. there's the set piece we were talking about. just gorgeous at the hundredth minute of the game. messi, the other living legend moves on with a goal in the penalties, and one in the pks at the end as well. preview for us, what we have coming up this weekend, we have messi trying to get his first world cup win in likely his last world cup, and lots of story lines in the france/morocco game as well. >> so much passion in the argentinian team, might be too much. croatia was ruthless. they have a great middle field. they're strong, and they will not lie down easily.

could be a shock there. french, morocco, the danish win in '92, when they weren't expected. those were underdogs. everyone kept saying they're going to get beat. they're going to be found out. they weren't. they went on to win it, so, look, no one thinks really that france will lose to morocco, but that guy there, to score that goal, the crowd out there for the mor rock -- morocco support is huge. sometimes momentum is important. you got to think france is going to come through that one. argentina, croatia. croatia is a tough team to bit, and if argentina get too emotional, beat. but again, an argentinian-france final would be something special. >> gary hopkins, thank you so much. we have this terrible news to report. american soccer journalist grant

wahl died friday in qatar. he was reportedly in an area for reporter in the quarterfinal and quote fell ill and tended to on sight by paramedics and taken to the hospital. the cause of death is still unclear. in a post unweek he said he felt sick and that medical personnel at the world cup told him he probably had bronchitis. he said he was given antibiotics. his wife tweeted late friday that the news came as a complete shock. he was covering his eighth world cup. he was 49. >> it's hard to overstate his impact on football, on soccer in america. also, the shock roger bennett talking about it in tears a couple days ago.

the shock of the passing of a young man who was healthy until going to qatar. >> truly, truly tragic. my brother knew grant. it was always said what a generous soul he was. he was so kind to colleagues and competitors alike. he was one of the great ambassadors for soaker in the united states. talked about the game with passion and such a shame. he won't be with us to celebrate the world cup coming to the united states in 2026. he was an outspoken critic of the host of qatar there. certainly the americans have said that they want to -- securing his body to bring it home. the brother is emotional saying he seemed healthy until a few days ago. it is such a terrible loss and

did so much more for the sport in america and we'll miss him deeply. >> we'll turn to a big development in space travel. nasa's orion capsule returned to earth after completing an uncrewed trip around the moon. the spacecraft had a picture perfect splash down yesterday in the pacific ocean off the coast of san diego. the next step in the mission to send a crewed flight around the moon scheduled for 2024. jonning us now nasa administrator bill nelson looking at the picturing of the splash down happening. tell us about the success of the trip. were there any challenges that need to be addressed? what's next? >> unbelievably very few what they call funnies happened and those glitches that did they

were able to overcome in a near perfect mission. but this is just the first. this is the beginning of the new beginning. the artemis generation not only going back to the moon but to learn to live, to work, to invent, to create to go further out and to go to mars by the end of the decade of the 2030s. >> senator, we grew up in an age of space exploration. i grew up, my family just absolutely transfixed by the apollo program and mercury. so what do you say to people who say we thought we left that behind? what's the purpose of the new program? why is this so important for the united states to pursue?

>> when all of this started 60 years ago with president kennedy giving that great speech in rice stadium he said we go to the moon and do other things not because it is easy but because it is hard. and space is hard. and it's, joe, part of our dna to explore, to have a frontier, to constantly learn. that's why people are so fascinated about space and space flight. is that it's the unknown. it's almost like making the impossible possible. that's what we are doing. look at the other things. look at the james webb space telescope. hitting the asteroid dead eye.

so that we could protect or planet in the future with a killer asteroid coming at us. you have seen the rover on mars and then the little helicopter flying around and a 1% atmosphere. so indeed this is a golden able of space and space flight but there's a lot out there in the universe to discover. >> senator, there's no question that there are enormous benefits and mysteries being solved by the space program and the steps we are taking as a nation in outer space but on the other hand there are people in this country i think many who wonder about the cost of the programs and the cost benefit to them when america can't pass a child care tax credit. what do you say to those people who say why are we doing this?

it's so expensive. >> of course, mike, i was there in the senate voting for those programs, as well. but if you ask why, number one, jobs. look at the 400,000 direct jobs from nasa. you talk about the economy. look at the $72 billion in the economy direct from nasa. that's not even indirect. give you an example of an indirect. everybody in their pocket, a cell phone. they take pictures all the time. that camera on a chip would developed by nasa for precise photography. so the spin-offs in our economy, the pharmaceutical research on the international space station, the improvement of the development and production of

cancer treatment drugs, it goes on and on and you have to remind people of these things but if you doubt people's fascination with space just walk in a classroom of elementary school kids and watch how their little faces brighten up. >> yeah. >> it is amazing. >> nasa administrator bill nelson, thank you so much for joining us this morning and congratulations on the first phase. the united states isn't the only country making strides in the space program. yesterday the first arab-built moon rover launched by the united arab emirates part of a focus on space technology with the goal to build a human settlement on mars by the year 2117. here now with more on that, the

chairwoman for the uae space agency and the minister of state for advanced technology. we are talking about mars and not just touching down but a settlement. please share more if you could. >> very good morning to everyone and thank you for hosting me. this long-term approach is an emerging space nation is rooted in international collaboration. we saw the successful launch on a spacex launch vehicle within a capsule or lander to land on the moon developed by a commercial space provider from japan in collaboration with several countries and the u.s. on boarded is a rover built and designed in the united arab emirates. this is a true reflection of global collaboration needs to be

and for us where space exploration needs to be pushed. this program requires the continuous global dialogue and cooperation in new ways. that's what the mars 2117 program is about and what the space program from the global context is about. >> and so, this is a long, long-term project but can you describe the human settlement on mars, how much of a footprint it would have? what is the goal? >> it is towards the technologies to get us there. i'd like that talk about the next ten days. we are in orbit to mars. we are today also working on developing and designing a mission to the asteroid belt for a grand tour of the asteroid

belt by venus. there's a large investment going into developing the private space sector that today we see great advances in exploration and furthering the agenda of governments to spend on and ensuring that it has an impact on the private space. last week we held the abu dhabi space debate. the space debate brought together people with different backgrounds that influence space with the space sector to discuss issues of great importance. today it is things that are up and coming. the number of players in the space sector has grown exponentially. from the beginning of the space race with two nations accessing space to having more than 70

nations with space agencies and programs. all of this development today gets us to discussing the challenges happening in low earth orbit and the debris issues. continued usability of space and ensuring not to bring in the current world into furthering space development and advancement. >> that's what's so exciting. i think groundbreaking about this is the united states having the program. russia having its program. china. and this case you have -- it is an international approach. >> that's right. >> also a private/public partnership. this is it seems to be the first of its kind and i think it's really positive blueprint for how you do this moving forward. >> the chairwoman of the space program, thank you. >> thank you so much.

>> thank you. we have jumped past the top of the hour. we want to get to the top stories this morning. wnba star brittney griner is on the road to recovery after spending nearly ten months behind bars in russia but as the white house celebrates officials say they are not relenting to bring home paul whelan from russian captivity. his brother david is speaking out on why president biden was able to do something former president trump wasn't. bring the former u.s. marine home. >> i think we understood that there was -- there were two options. one for brittney griner to come home and one option for nobody to come home. i think president biden made the right choice which is that an american should come home if they can. the prior administration not

prepared to work on detention. we are seeing that change. the biden administration is engaged in wrongful detentions. >> david whelan tweeted this on friday. former president trump appears to mentioned my brother's wrongful detention more in the last 24 hours than the 2 years of his presidency. zero. >> didn't mention it once because then that would offend vladimir putin. >> wouldn't want to offend his friend. >> who kidnapped him. >> i don't suggest he cares now anymore than he did then. zero. former president trump had a chance to bring paul whelan home from russia but didn't. in a post on truth social, trump wrote in part i turned down a deal with russia for a one on

one swap of the so-called her chant of death for paul whelan. i wouldn't have made the deal for a hundred people. >> again, mike barnacle, this comes, of course, from the same man who let 5,000 members of the taliban go for nothing. who wanted to invite the taliban to camp david on september 11th. it also comes from a man who was so scared of vladimir putin would never say a cross word and didn't bring up paul whelan's name one time after vladimir putin kidnapped him. just like he refused to push kim jong-un who he said he wrote love letters to to release the

ohio college student beaten to death and then shipped home to the united states. this guy is a last guy in the world to ever go to to consult on how you take care of hostages. >> let's consider what we have seen and talked about in the last two minutes. we have seen and heard an amazing moment of grace from paul whelan's brother about his brother still in captivity in russia, a moment where he told the truth about donald trump. not mentioning his brother's name in donald trump's last two years of his presidency and then wrote yesterday on his platform truth social. this is a man among us of some

import unfortunately every moment in public takes it to damage the damage he's already created within the american government, within our country, with our institutions of government. all he does each and every day take the field to hurt the united states of america, to damage the united states of america. why? because this is all about him. it is not about the country. it is not about paul whelan. it's not about anything other than him and his own twisted ambitions. >> this is the guy who of course a week or so ago talking about terminating the united states constitution. >> before that -- >> lost an election. >> had a white nationalist at mar-a-lago. weekly gutter behavior. >> it is every week. attacks the united states military. attacks the fbi. attacks the professionals in the intel community all because it doesn't serve his purposes.

>> does seem like it is worse. >> of course it is. >> with the different legal challenges closing in on him is he acting out knowing the personality? >> he knows that election deniers all lost. he tried to get the party to follow him. they all lost the elections. so history is moving past him. it is something again that he is very 'em bittered. >> only way to stay out of jail is to win the presidency. wouldn't the presidency protect him from that? he starts to get -- spazzing out. >> we'll let the justice department do the work and the inspector general in virginia do her work, the inspector general in new york do her work.

>> doj -- >> let the legal chips fall where they may. >> yeah. >> i will say there's an ugliness, the fact that donald trump and a lot of his supporters cannot celebrate an american coming home is something that maybe people in the far right bubble can understand but the rest of america can't understand it. when you bring an american home americans celebrate. in this case we heard wonderful stories about brittney on the way home. she said i want to talk to you guys. i have been listening to -- we heard how gracious and kind she was. i have a contact on the runway during the prisoner exchange. >> traumatic. >> he said it was shocking. he shook her hand and said so

sorry you have been through this and must be terrible and so glad you are able to go home. she said something along the lines of, you know what? it was a life experience. i have learned from it and so grateful, so grateful to be going home. he was blown away by the positive spirit, optimistic spirit. he said he was part of a lot of these deals and people didn't usually have this countenance about them but she did and so grateful to come home to america. >> yeah. i was on set with mika on thursday and i think we welled up with tears, so thrilled for her and grateful to president biden and tony blinken and jake sullivan and after several hours of wonderful news and had an extra pep in the step to see some of these republicans

criticize the deal and the fact that an american came home and the government worked, by the way, in the middle of an intense war, to get her home, the criticism is just -- it is a reiteration why the republican party are in this bubble, the base is shrinking. very little room to really -- certainly not trying to grow the base. the only way to get the base excited is to say crazy things and also of course included in the crazy things to criticize an american coming home who was destined, in a penal colony in siberia, destined for several years of just absolute and unandible circumstances and

torture and such a big deal. some republicans criticizing. you cannot believe what you hear is what they're saying. >> i know. let me say again to my republican friends, republican brothers and sisters, it is okay to celebrate an american coming home. >> you can do it. >> you can do two things at once. i'm not sure i would make that deal but it is wonderful an american is coming home. they can't do it. that's why they're incapable of winning elections. >> let's take that to a whole new level with georgia republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene with influence over the ultra conservative freedom caucus and the group's ability to block

kevin mccarthy's ability to become speaker of the house. greene gave a speech at the new york young republicans club on saturday night bringing up the topic of january 6 and past accusations she gave tours to donald trump supporters in the days leading up to the insurrection and then said january 6 happened and next thing i organized the whole thing with steve bannon. i will tell you something. if steve bannon and i organized that we would have won, not to mention, it would have armed. >> again, this is not a back bencher anymore. >> oh my god. >> talking to someone from axios earlier and mtg is one of kevin mccarthy's most important allies in becoming the next speaker out

house. be clear here. one of mccarthy's most important allies who will be shaping the direction of this house republican caucus is talking about how they should have brought guns to the january 6 riots and if she had been in charge she would have had everybody bring guns and they would have quote won that riot which means they would have overthrown the united states government and a peaceful election, ended 240 years of peaceful transitions between presidents. that is, that is the face now of the house republicans. >> as kevin mccarthy's tries to scrape together votes to become spooker marjorie taylor greene is an emissary to the freedom caucus and the extreme maga right of republicans to be in

the majority. he is courting her now for nearly two years and knows he needs her support. he's looked the other way saying hateful, heinous things in the past and he'll look the other way on this one, too. he cannot afford to alienate her. if he is to be speaker she is guaranteed a place of prominence of power. she will be one of the top faces of the gop for the next two years. >> joining us is congressman of arizona. it is great to have you on. you get a sense of just how much marjorie taylor greene owns kevin mccarthy that she can go on stage and there are some things on the stage i can't

repeat that were utterly disgusting. >> focus on what you can. you won't say it though -- talk about the guns. >> she talked about how had she run the january 6 attack on the capitol they would have been armed to the teeth and won. what do you make of kevin mccarthy allowing this to pass by? does she really own him that much? >> you said an interesting word. ally. and when you use the word ally you have joint interest with joint common goals. what does it say about kevin mccarthy with greene? what is it you get from her and what does she think she will get from you? what greene is opposite of all american values and whatever kevin mccarthy he has no values. just a power hungry washington,

d.c.-ite to do anything including align himself with someone like greene. that is a scary combination for this country. >> it is just like january 6 kevin mccarthy attacked donald trump. >> he did. he called him up. >> called him out. he screamed at him on the phone. and then he goes down licking his boots getting his picture taken with him at mar-a-lago. >> because i guess it's people like greene and this is the base. but at the same time, congressman, you talk about the scary combination for the country. these are the people running committees, how do you work with them? >> look. for the sake of the country there will be some republicans i will work with because there are some common values and do have to get things done for the country but some people i will not -- i can't work with

insurrectionists and others. i don't think they have functionally anything for the country to do. secondly we don't know if kevin mccarthy can pull this off. the circus put up the tent and now the clowns are running around and not organized so let's see what happens. at the end of the day we may have something to work with. these members of congress are more interested in power and not what they can do for the country. >> congressman, will you work with them on issues like ukraine? you see what's happening there and what's necessary and what joe biden is navigating on the world stage there and then you have people like marjorie taylor greene and others in the republican party who are threatening that aid in some way, shape or form and saying

things that signify they don't have a sense of what's at stake. >> look. i just organized a trip. we have many republicans that still believe in supporting freedom, a free country like ukraine against an autocratic country like russia. i think we can work with them. there's a small minority of republicans that may hold the agenda on ukraine and overwhelm the moderate to conservative members of the republican party. it is worth the fight. we were there. took a long time to get there and you speak to the ukrainians and ukrainian military, civil society. they want to fight. they believe in the free dorm. better what i heard is after the war. they want to return to a country that's better than when it started free of corruption,

closer to the west and an ally. we should be there to support. >> congressman, your name is in the papers over the past couple of days. in relation to sinema going from being a democrat to the independent. many say you're considering a run for that seat in 2024. what are your thoughts? >> look. i have been very clear about me interested in this race. by nature i'm a marine first and a member of congress. i'm preparing for this. she decided to move to an independent. i think that's not the end of the world but she doesn't match arizona values anymore. i'm going to go back and listen to the constituents of arizona. i have a town hall tomorrow. i have them consistently. something that she hasn't had in

three years and i will listen to them and my latino family over the holiday that is will come in over christmas. going to be very, very crowded house but then after that making a decision and based on what's best for arizona and what i hear from the constituents and my family. >> let us know. >> i will. >> the family will chime in. >> absolutely. >> thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. joining us now editor of "the new republic" and the new piece is entitled "the case for hoping the gop nominates trump" i'm no republican but i do have a rooting interest here hoping that trump does not win the party's nomination in 2024.

the first reason and more obvious one is that if he's the nominee there's a risk he may become president again and we shouldn't play with that kind of fire. simply the soober the body politic reject it is pathogen that is trump the better. i'm quite sympathetic to both arguments but it is straightforward. he is the most beatable republican out there by far. >> you know what he does? he loses. >> also -- >> he just loses. he admitted that. he would have never won on any other day. >> mike barnacle with us in new york. has a first question. mike? >> michael, i understand where you are coming from on this.

but why would you want to put the country through a carnival of chaos and destruction? that's what the man brings. why putt the country through that when you could have a more even matchup president biden or another democrat against another candidate? >> it is a fair question, mike. there are days i take the other view but on balance i take the view in the column. yeah, it would be a carnival of chaos. there's no question about that but he would lose. he would lose. he drew a 1 in a million inside straight in 2016 running against a candidate who had bad approval numbers and republicans spent 25 years convincing americans was corrupt. as joe has said many times he

has a losing streak that rivals washington generals if we remember who they are. he would lose to joe biden and probably any other democrat and then i think drubbed and then after that maybe knocking on wood the republican party would finally go into a period of self examination and it might, might, emerge again as a sane and reasonable conservative party. >> adrian here. look. as somebody who worked on hillary clinton's campaign we learned to never underestimate donald trump. there's been speculation that if donald trump had a three or four-way primary that would be harder to overcome but 16, 18-way primary like starting in 2015 going to 2016 that he would

sort of blast through and barrel through and become the defacto nominee. how do you see that? do you see a crowded primary being less or more beneficial for him? >> the more candidates the better for trump. i looked at the 2016 republican primary results and did a rough math. if you look at the first four early states, he lost iowa of course to ted cruz and won the next three and he won them with an average of 34.3% of the vote. now, what does he have support among republicans today? well, i would say about 35% of the party seems like they are still strongly committed to

donald trump. something around that. in a multi-candidate field 30, 35% is plenty. but in a smaller field it is not and one difference between 2024 and 2016 that i would bet on is that i think the field might winnow faster. the republicans stayed in a long time because nobody could believe that donald trump would be the nominee. could be a one on one race faster and trump would have a lot of trouble. >> all right. thank you very much. adrian, thank you, as well, for being on this morning 34 years after the terrorist bombing of pan am 103 over scotland a former libyan intelligence operative is in u.s. custody this morning. we're back in a moment.

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we have great must reads this morning. "wall street journal" has a new opinion piece entitled "why the smart party never learns" reading the most obvious change in american politics is the sorting of voters along educational lines. the democrats are increasingly the party of educated urban elites. the gop belongs to white working class. if you're on the right you simply can't isolate yourself from the habits and attitudes of left liberal progressivism. they are everywhere. they still see cnn as a captive audience as an airport. their to listen about climate change before the music starts. there is no bubble.

so silo for such a person. the left liberal outlook triumphed across american culture. progressives have become if i could put it bluntly incurious and lazy. wow. >> by the way, i have got to say, i have got to say. >> what? >> this is one of the most fascinating op-eds i have read in a long time. people in a bubble that was perhaps in the biggest bubble of all. as a southern baptist from the deep south who went to southern saint schools i can tell you, if you think the left owns the media and academia and hollywood

now, grow up when i grew up when you had three news channels, "new york times," "the wall street journal." seriously. i went to southern state schools. i didn't have a single conservative professor. things have changed. and actually there has become more ideological diversity than ever before. jen, this is what -- this is what almost made my head explode. i'm reading this and you have a guy in 2022 saying, oh people on the right, they can't live in a bubble like progressives. a lot of progressives live in bubbles and usually lose. progressives live in bubbles but

to suggest people on the right can't live in bubbles? >> yeah. >> he is writing this when a lot of my friends from earlier days, a lot of my church members and family members, still family members, come at me with election denying nonsense. we hear people talk about jewish lasers and italian dude with a satellite that stole elections. bamboo in ballots in arizona. people talking at the suitcase lie in georgia. we have people that get the news a lot of them get the news from chinese religious cults that run sites in america. >> yeah. >> people that get the news from the plandemic.

family members that would -- the anti-vax lies that hippies in san francisco used to talk about. they're in these extraordinary bubbles and for somebody on the right to say we on the right can't live in bubbles? i have never seen people live in a bubble the way people on the far right, the trump right, live right now. and let me say it again for the friends and family members on the far right i'm trying to do you a favor. you lose elections when you live in that bubble. get out of the bubble. stop fearing people who actually think differently than you and like me learn from them. jen, i'm sorry. that's the speech for today that anybody in "wall street journal" could say the right, they can't live in a bubble when the friends and family members the conspiracy theories are bizarre.

and they live in this bubble that causes them to lose elections. >> yes. if you're writing with a $200 pen on long form at "wall street journal" op-ed you might be disconnected where the country is. bubbles exist on all sides. there's bubbles on the right and the left but what's true of the right is there's a belief that nothing will change in the country, people will not evolve. republicans pursue the same right wing policies. i worked for john kerry in 2003 running for president. back then less than 20 years ago we had to find a slow bird to shoot to prove he was for guns. >> slow bird. >> right? today. >> yeah. >> also true in that same

election, i bet you remember this, a dozen states where gay marriage was divisive hurting the democrats. the country evolved. if you are disconnected and in this right wing bubble then you will lose because you will be out of line with the country. we saw that play out with election denialism. everybody in the bubble thought could not be defeated and it was. coming up, as the holiday season ramps up the government could be shutting down. live to capitol hill where the government is struggling to reach a funding deal. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪wow, uh-huh♪ now she's got a whole team to help her get the most out of her plan.

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really quickly want to ask you about the front page article of growing unrest among the

young in china. what do you make of it? >> the problems in china go i don'tened the zero covid and the economic growth. you have tens of millions of young people unemployed. even more. you see it in russia. people voting with the feet. you see what's going on in china and the protests in iran. they see no future in the authoritarian countries. they're isolated from the world. no political freedom. not much economic opportunity. life is boring, limited. the authoritarian countries don't know how to deal with it. it's actually i think an underappreciated situation. north korea might be the only country to kind of get away with it. look at the poverty and the isolation. they can't quite control things to that degree and seeing therefore is increasing frustration.

they lose the next generation. not clear to me the regimes are long term sustainable. i think all three are in play. >> yeah. so front page of "wall street journal" has a story of how ukraine levels a hotel used to house russian troops. this war is more fierce by the day. the journal talking about topic that we discussed offline and that is the united states and european allies. how are we standing shoulder to shoulder moving into the winter? >> there's a really uneasy difference of opinion and what's the definition of success? is it that ukraine be an independent, sovereign entity? does it have to recover every inch of the ter irto 2014 or 1991. using arms to maybe long-term

sanctions? it shows there's a real unease, a lack of firm consensus and this is something putin is looking at. whether the splits in the west come. i think they're legitimate issues and can't say you're unprincipled to raise the issues. there's real issues about how do we define success? what's the timeline? what are the means to achieve it? what is there we will have to have to discuss them more directly. >> doesn't just break one way that europe wants to be more permissive. look at poland, finland. are actually going to take -- we can predict they will want to take a much tougher line against russia than even the united states. you ask any leaders of those

countries that i mentioned how do you define victory and it's all russian troops are out of ukraine. >> every inch. >> no exception to that. the united states is not going to take as an absolutist of a position just like countries in central europe are. explain how this is not just sort of a u.s. versus europe but there are divisions in europe. so they're going to be a lot of countries pushing and pulling to get ukraine's ear for any settlement that might come this spring. >> 100%. splits within the united states. whether every square inch of territory to be recovered. you have splits about war crimes, accountability, the willingness to do business with

putin, economic reparations issues and should be part of the mix. all of this is there. these are legitimate subjects and the fact in the last 72, 96 hours putin reintroduced the nuclear use. how aggressive ought we to be with the nuclear threat? this never gets resolved. these are real and serious issues. coming up, the next guests say there's a new fringe on capitol hill. the few members willing to break party lines to get things done. what a so-called democracy caucus would mean for the country just ahead on "morning joe."

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over the course of her

25-year career in the beer and alcohol industry, the ceo of heineken usa has been often been the only woman in the room. today heineken has released a new behind-the-label, report on fostering inclusion in the alcohol and beverage industry. the company surveyed 500 americans employed by these manufacturers, and the numbers said they have experienced personal bias was eye opening. and maggie was on the inaugural 50 over 50 list. i'm curious, it's great to have you on the show, what did you find? and how did your findings compare to other industries and workplaces? >> good morning, mika. great to see you. we did find that bias was present, and that didn't surprise us, but what surprised us since our last report which was last year is that people see that the movement is happening. they see that representation is

in c-suite levels and that their companies are making concerted efforts to do better in de&i and as a result belonging. fostering belonging is a universal truth. no matter what industry you're in, people want to feel like they belong. >> what this found is that some of the numbers were pretty good, but then the answers that that feeling of belonging wasn't there, what are you learning about what can be done, especially in, you know, an industry that once potentially was male dominated like your industry, perhaps it's changing a lot, but how do you fost they're belonging? >> i think three things. this came out of the report and didn't surprise me. i put it under the framework of art -- authenticity, representation, and transparency. the greatest gift you can give someone is to allow them to be themselves at work. it's okay to be yourself at work. second is representation. people want to see themselves,

diverse representation, can they see themselves reflected in others? the third is transparency. that breeds trust. so advancement, how do i get to the next job, pay equity analysis, am i being paid fairly. so the campaign finance reform of zero communication, people think that companies have something to hide. >> exactly. also they can't read your mind. i always say you have to go in and say something because they can't read your mind. >> they can't. >> sometimes it's on both sides. >> it's on both sides. but also, mika, the why, an absence of a why, people say, oh, maybe this or that, and they go down to the negative path versus the positive one. companies need to tell people why things are happening. the good whys and the whys may not be good news for people. it's okay. >> last year heineken released a white paper addressing gender disparities in your industry.

and traditionally a male-dominated field, obviously. still lagging behind a little bit. but are you making headway? and if so, how? >> i think we are. i mean, it's only been a year since we did the first behind-the-label report. what's happened is we've sparked the conversation. we still have a long way to go, but the movement is happening. we see networks of women's groups across the industry, you know, forming. and let me tell you, i'm reading blogs and they're talking about diversity in the industry. the movement has happened and we've sparked the conversation. >> so i saw you at last week's 50 over 50 luncheon, and i love asking women in the know your value community this question -- when you were -- i don't know, you're 25, 20-year-old self, did you ever imagine your career in your 50s? >> never. and mika, you were the one who said it last week. you said when we were in our 20s and 30s and you see women in their 50s, my sister was in her

50s, i thought oh my god, she's so old. then you get into your 50s and you have so much energy and you see that runway, and you say, okay, we need to light that runway up for others, and also another good 20 or 30 years left in us to contribute to society, to our lives, and make the world a better place. >> at least let's light it up. ceo of heineken usa, maggie tominey, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> if you're interested in hearing more about maggie's rise to the top, head over to knowyourvalue.com. i spoke to her for our women in charge fair. we talked a great deal about maggie's unconventional upbringing, which is often the motivation for success. it's an amazing piece about an amazing woman. thank you, maggie. up next, we'll tell you about the prisoner swap that former president trump turned down which could have brought

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well, i would defer to john in his role as national security adviser, but it just -- >> we -- >> we weren't in the business of a prisoner swaps, in the business of this kind of an uneven trade, john. so i wouldn't question that at all as having been the case. >> they didn't like uneven prison swaps. >> oh, no. >> where you would trade one for another. what they liked to do is they were in the business of letting 5,000 taliban terrorists go free. >> yeah. >> gh