ht and get healthier with golo. hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. i'm alisa menendez in for nicolle wallace. on an anniversary in american society it has been ten years since the lives of 20 children and six teachers were tragically

taken away at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut. the toll of gun violence has soared and the country has witnessed a seemingly never ending wave of mass shootings practically every public space imaginable. churches, synagogues, grocery stores and night clubs and spas. just to name a few. there have been at least 628 mass shootings this year alone according to one count. that is just a small fraction of the gun deaths happening every day in every corner of this country. the brady campaign reports that over 40,000 people die from gun violence every year to say nothing of the survivors of gun violence, a number that grows by tens of thousands every year and the families and communities forever changed by these shootings. even as we are in the midst of this epidemic it is fair to say in the ten years since sandy hook the terrain has shifted in american politics when it comes to guns. just a few years ago a youth movement centered on gun reform

organized protests across this country in an army of activism everyday americans pushed for change at the state and federal levels. nbc news reports what a difference a decade makes for america's gun laws. killing sprees have become more frequent and public support for tougher firearm laws has grown the gun lobby on capitol hill has shown cracks. congress passed the first federal safety gun law 30 years in june to tighten background checks and offer grants for states to keep guns out of the hands of potentially dangerous people before they commit violence. on a state level 525 significant gun safety laws adopted in the decade since sandy hook according to a new report by the giffords law center to prevent gun violence. the books columbine and parkland, quote, gun safety wasn't buried in newton, connecticut. the modern movement was born that day.

sandy hook unleashed a slow motion tsunami of determination that culminated this june in the first significant act of congress and gun safety in nearly three decades. 15 republican senators broke with the nra unthinkable in the old political landscape, the first time in decades. republicans in congress are taking our demands seriously and finally less afraid of the nra than they are of us. let's bring in dave, a journalist who has covered mass shootings across the u.s., his book "parkland birth of a movement" and with me executive director of guns down america, here at the table former managing editor of "time" and state department official msnbc political analyst rick stengel. dave, i want to start with you. we read from your piece in "the times." can you walk us through what happened in the aftermath of sandy hook and why gun safety advocates were able slowly to change the game?

>> sure. it came at a fortuitous time where the gun control neechlts lasted half a century was crumbling and they had just commissioned the first sort of like big -- the phrase gun control they were using was terrible, toxic. and they needed a new concept, no idea what. also those people, it was pretty much guns. the very day after sandy hook, shanann watts, a stay-at-home mom in indianapolis, started a facebook group that went viral very quickly and became moms demand action. over ten years, it's now -- it merged with bloomberg's group to become every town. nearly double the size of the nra. nothing in nra's history had been remotely as large as it. nothing like a million or something. now it's twice as big. also at the same time, not realizing shannon was starting

something gabby giffords was two years out from being shot in the head herself decided i have to do something and three and a half weeks after sandy hook after meeting with the families started a group which became the forerunner of giffords. now giffords and every town are the two lobbying groups for gun safety and never been anything like it. they have a completely different approach and new leaders, new tactics and new organizing principle around this idea of safety which actually appeals to gun owners as well, which is, you know, for a lot of different reasons, now very slowly under the radar, so most people didn't know what was happening, argue with hosts that something is coming and they were like completely skeptical, here we are. and, you know, this is stage one of, you know, many, many more to come. >> i want to talk about those future stages, but i do have to ask you, i mean, i hear the hope, i understand it's still ten years, and i one wonder if

you're surprised by how little or how much have changed since sandy hook? >> not really. as i said in the piece, too, i was a doubter too and distraught. they cut back a little bit. even five years out, i've heard about every town and giffords and skeptical that they would amount to anything significant. it was only when parkland happened and i spent that year with the parkland kids and saw them interacting with both groups, working together with gabby personally and her group and also with every town and seeing -- and then sort of like digging deeper and discovered what had been going on, that giffords an every town were having success in some cases at the state level where nearly all the battles on gun legislation has been fought. they were going from losing everything, to winning here and there. so they were figuring it out. but once i saw those, the

parkland kids and what happened that year, and what happened in the midterms where gun safety include the nbc exit polls, first time ever, it ranked as one of the top issues, and also prior, nearly everyone voting on guns voted on the other side for the nra. this is the first time more people said they were voting for gun safety. that was a dramatic change. shannon told me that year that her number of people tripled from 2 million to 6 million in that year. that is the year they vaulted past the nra and now they're up to 10. after that year, it was like -- and spending a lot of time with these groups and discovering like oh, there's something going on, and by the way the next year in 2019 the first year in the history of any of this that they beat the nra in gun legislation at the states. they went through a whopping reversal in that year. so the signs of it have been

coming. of course it's slow and, you know, actually i asked jackie one of the organizers of march for our lives after the shooting before the march on washington, i said, you know, how long do you think this is going to take? i don't know what i was expecting from her. she's 17. she thought and goes, well, the civil rights movement took a generation. i think this is going to probably take a generation. >> whoa. >> i was like yeah. wow. and then i was like wow. like you are getting it. the adults aren't. we're looking for something next week and the next election cycle. no. not a generation to do one thing, but to get to where they're trying to go. this is a long-term generational thing, 20, 30, 40 years, perhaps to do this. if you're looking for like next week or in the next cycle, no, that's not happening. >> as someone who is in the

work, what does today mean to you and other gun safety advocates? >> you know, today i think of all the families lost. i think of my friend abby clemons a kindergarten teacher who saved her classroom. i think about survivors across the country. brandon wolffe who testified before the house oversight committee. he's a survivor. michael anderson a club q survivor who delivered eloquent testimony. i take the point about incredible progress our movement has made over the last ten years, but i think we have to be clear-eyed about the challenges ahead, about the fact that this supreme court this year completely redefined the second amendment, making it so much more difficult for gun violence prevention laws to survive scrutiny. the fact that we see americans across the country buying guns in ever increasing numbers

demographics who had not previously purchased guns, so we have a lot of work left to do to educate americans about the innate dangers of firearms, the fact that when you brung a gun into your home, you're bringing something incredibly dangerous. we have to have a long-term plan about what we will do about a supreme court that is intent, absolutely intent, on putting our lives at risk. >> igor, to your point about keeping the families front and center, i want to play something for you. this is isiah, a survivor of sandy hook, he lost his sister anna grace in that shooting. this is a note he wrote to his sunger self. take a listen. >> as you grow up and deal with your loss, one of the biggest struggles you'll have is telling others about it. in fact, at times she will choose to tell new people you're an only child when they ask. you'll think about anna all the time, but any words you have to say about her will be unable to come out of your mouth. don't feel bad about that.

one day, you'll begin to realize that a way you can keep her alive is through your words about her. the words will come. you will learn that by keeping her alive you are calling attention to all those who have senselessly lost their lives to gun violence and the inaction of our nation's leaders. >> we often rely on what is measurable in this conversation, the number of shootings and lives lost, but the impact of gun violence, something isiah and anna's mom calls preventable grief. that is immeasurable, and it speaks to the cultural work that needs to be done to reposition guns in our society. >> yeah. that's absolutely true. there's no organizations in our movement that are really trying to tackle this issue from a cultural lens, right. getting young people to really understand that guns don't make us safer, we need that work to continue. that's really the key. frankly, it's the voices of

survivors like the one you played that should be leading it. >> i am struck by the generational piece of this, right. i remember being in parkland a year after that shooting and interviewing students there. they were very casual about the fact that since they were in pre-k, since in kindergarten they had been practicing active shooter drills. i'm not that much older than them and 20 years ago that wasn't a part of our educational reality in the united states. it is unsurprising to me the amount of this work that has been led by that generation and unsurprising that first gen-z member of congress, maxwell frost, comes to the work through that movement. >> and remember, they were overly optimistic about what effect they would have. they thought this is a rubicon that's been crossed. we will get sensible gun measures passed, and there have been a lot of improvements over the last 10 and 20 years as we've talked about, even discussing it in terms of gun

safety as opposed to gun control makes a difference, but the number of shootings has continued to increase. i would say the normalization of shootings is what has weirdly brought sort of common sense to parents around the country. nobody wants to send their kid to school and think, oh, my god, i might not see her or him when i come back. there's been a kind of return of common sense. we saw that in the midterm elections. i think we saw that in the passage of the bipartisan safe communities law. there's still a long way to go, banning of assault weapons and things like that, but i think the nra, even the republican leadership, is out of tune with people on the ground who are saying, even republican gun owners in favor of red flag laws and the reforms that still need to be done. i think that is the way that it will happen. >> do you think that those who continue to cling to it cling to it as a social proxy issue? >> yes, like everything else in our society, but what's been smart about the advocates we

talked about, they don't try to question the second amendment, they don't try to question your right to own guns. what they try to question is the safety of children, the safety of communities and that resonates with people. >> dave, take a listen, this is senator chris murphy as you know who has been at the forefront of the push in congress spoke on the floor of the senate today about the bill that was passed this summer. take a listen. >> what we communicated this summer to those kids and the parents is that we care. our answer isn't nothing. right. and so as much as i experienced this as a father, i also know that we've made progress and that progress has been logistical and practical but meta physical, it's been emotional. what we did this summer just gave kids in this country, parents in this country, a little bit of a feeling, right, that we're going to be there for them and hopefully more in the

future. >> dave, do you agree about that as a signal? >> oh, yes. you know, one of the things he said right after the bill passed was that -- i'm paraphrasing -- politics is a momentum game, and winning begets winning, especially with the first win, because your strength politically when your side feels it's hopeless, adding one of the big things that's happened so many years you when it seemed hopeless, after sandy hook, if you're a voter, why would you waste your vote for an issue that's hopeless, that's never going to happen. if you're a politician why would you risk your career running on an issue that is hopeless. neither did and there was a catch-22. no one is voting for gun safety because no one was running on it or just on background checks that they realized wouldn't work. we were in this hoepzness

begetting hopelessness that was self-fulfilling. now you get one win and proves to people who were doubters, maybe i should, quote, waste or expend my vote in this issue. if i'm running for congress maybe it is worth running on this. so, you know, we're moving things along. by the way, the key thing i make this point the reason it passed this summer is because chris murphy helped and mitch mcconnell peel off 15 republican senators. nobody thought they could get 10. they needed 10. how could we get to 10. they got to 15. the reason they got to 15 including their leader mitch mcconnell is because -- and i told the story in the piece and, you know, it was important -- is they had a closed-door meeting where mitch commissioned a pool of gun owners, that showed overwhelming support, by republicans and gun owners, for all these measures, and he told his conference, the reality,

we're losing and there will be no more red waves, i'm paraphrasing here, without the suburbs and we're losing them. we have 15 of his people including himself to switch sides and talk on the nra for the first time because they see which way the wind is blowing. mitch mcconnell knows how to read the tea leaves and know they have to do something. they don't want to do a whole gun safety agenda, but they have to do more things because their voters will start turning on them, too, and that's why we will continue peeling off more. >> igor, i have about 30 seconds left. your final thoughts. >> well, look, what i'm also really happy to see is we have such a rich tapestry of organizations and advocates, groups like mine working to push corporations to prioritize this issue and groups that focus on investing in communities closest to the pain of gun violence and it's going to take all of us. >> all of the above.

dave, igor, thank you so much. rick stengel, you're staying with me for the rest of the hour. when we come back on capitol hill, combatting the rise of violence and hateful rhetoric aimed at the lbgtq community in america. the emotional and powerful accounts from activists and those who experienced the attacks firsthand. we'll talk with one survivor what can be done about it. florida governor ron desantis investigating crimes and wrongdoing surrounding covid vaccines. another alarming move politicizing health care in that state. later in the show we know what caused the death of the late sports reporter grant wahl. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. hen "deadline white house" continues after this as an independent financial advisor, i stand by these promises: i promise to be a careful steward of the things that matter to you most. i promise to bring you advice that fits your values. i promise our relationship will be one of trust and transparency.

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words have consequences. unbridled hate comes at a cost. our stolen loved ones are not a talking point. they're missing faces at birthday parties, empty seats at dinner tables. they paid the price for militarized hate in this country. it is high time that congress get serious about the cost of anti-lbgtq hatred and commit to honoring those in its cross hairs with real actions. a simple truth is this, we just want to live. is that so much to ask? >> in the midst of an ongoing crisis such an important conversation on capitol hill today. the first of its kind and not too soon. the house oversight committee held a hearing on what should be a fundamental right, the ability of people in the lbgtq community

not only to be safe, but to feel safe, to be equal and feel equal. providing testimony experts and survivors of dreadful bigoted terrorism as well. club q shooting? colorado wasn't even a month ago, after all. federal crime data shows since 2015 an explosion in hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation or gender identity. such violence is one avenue of growing discrimination. also harmful the drumbeat of bigotry in state houses this year from the hill, quote, republican lawmakers in more than two dozen states introduced over 340 bills seeking to restrict access to gender affirming care for transgender youth, ban transgender athlete from sport and limit how identities and issues can be talked about in school. joining us is brandon wolf, we just played some of his testimony, he's the press secretary for the civil rights organization quality florida and a survivor of the pulse night

club shooting in orlando. thank you for making time to be with us. i wonder what you took away from today's hearing and hope elected officials took away from you? >> thank you for having me. a really important conversation today. one thing i took away was the courage of the club q folks, who so vuller inbly shared their stories, as you said it's not been very long, it was very raw and fresh for them. i know how that feels an the fact that they could stand there with such poise and such grace and share so vuller inbly spoke to my heart. then the question of what other people got from today. i could tell the democrats were laser focused on creating a world that is better for all of us. they seemed really engaged today. i noticed republican lawmakers didn't hurl the same bigotry they're willing to traffic online at survivors of mass violence. maybe the humanizing of people behind the rhetoric and the discourse in this country, might have gotten through to them. i also hope that people around

the country heard a message that this is a moment, this is an opportunity for us to elevate our expectations, not just of our elected officials, but of ourselves. we have to do better as a country to treat people with dignity and respect. i am hopeful this started that conversation. >> brandon, let's talk about some of that rhetoric you referenced. i want to play something from today's hearing and ask you about it. this is michael anderson, a survivor of last month's club q shooting. >> to the politicians and activists who accuse lbgtq people of grooming children and being abusers, shame on you. as leader of our country it is your obligation to represent all of us, not just the ones you happen to agree with. hate speech turns into hate action and actions based on hate almost took my life from me at 25 years old. i beg you all to consider your words before you speak them, for someone may use those words to justify action, action that may take someone's life.

>> brandon, what went through your mind as you listened to that testimony? >> it's so true and so gut wrenching. we've said all along that the troeps about lbgtq people, this insinuation that we're a threat to children by simply existing, being trafficked in by the way by powerful people like the governor of the third largest state in the union, that would come at a cost, you heard spr someone who paid the price, who had to go through hell and back and lost people in the process. they pay the price for that unmitigated, unbridled hatred. my heart breaks for those who have had their worlds shattered and ripped apart, and i'm hopeful people hear those cries for a better discourse, us to hold ourselves accountable and challenge our elected officials and say that bigotry has no place in our politics. >> we know it has consequences. it's not happening on some far right reaches of the internet. it is propagated by people who have positions of power.

>> yes. by the way, brandon's testimony was very powerful today. yes there are legitimate political leaders who are trafficking in this, but two things. one, these are old tropes as he said, go back decades, centuries even. conspiracy ther are yous themselves are like a virus. what we saw in the last segment, return to common sense, the local communities have rejected a lot of these laws proposed by extremist lawmakers outlawing this and realizing i have more important things to worry about than a law, you know, preventing discrimination against lbgtq people. i think there's a return to common sense and regular people are realizing this is no threat to ordinary people and there are more important things to worry about. >> i am so struck by something that you said i believe it was in your testimony, brandon, the idea of militarized hate and strikes me that conversation we were having about gun safety and the conversation that we are

having now about hate aimed at the lbgtq community you can have those conversations in silos but there's a lot of overlap between those two conversations. >> yeah. they're fundamentally interconnected because the truth is we know that hate is dangerous. we know that emboldening it and inflaming it can ultimately put people's lives at risk. it increases young people's risk of bullying an depression and anxiety. and then when you take hate and you happened it an assault weapon and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, you end up with something that is catastrophic, you end up with club q, you end up with pulse night club. i've said before and testified in 2019 and my urge to congress then was to see these things as interconnected. it feels like as a country, we've made a decision rather than snuff hate out, rather than take it head on, we've emboldened it, subsidized it and handed it an assault weapon. that is catastrophic and deadly especially for those in its cross hairs. >> brandon i wonder how you're processing the duality of this

moment, today is the first day in america where protections for same-sex couples, interracial couples, are protected and codified in our federal law and the fact that you were on capitol hill on that same day, testifying before congress about the real risks that are out there to your community? >> yeah. the juxtaposition tells me a lot about the progress we've made. because let's be honest, the reason that we're feeling such a backlash, the reason that politicians in this country are trying to convince people that the greatest threat they face is a drag queen singing lady gaga hits down street the reason because lbgtq people have made progress and people believe that same-sex marriages deserve the same legal recognition as everyone else's. people in this country believe that lbgtq people are deserving of dignity and respect and nondiscrimination protections as well. that is progress we've made over the last several decades, and as it progress that terrifies right wing, dreamists and the

politicians who traffic in that same extremism. that's why we're feeling this backlash. i'm thinking about the juxtaposition but as i've said to my friends, when push comes to shove my money is always on progress. >> yes. i want to talk about what he said about hate speech. the problem now in our society is if people who care about the first amendment, see the first amendments as the point is to protect had hate speech, that's a problem. we're seeing that flooding and there is ramifications to it. >> brandon wolf, thank you for being with us. when we come back the governor of florida falling deeper into the rabbit hole, announcing plans to create liss own so-called health agencies. we'll talk about what mixing health policy with his political ambitions looks like. ons looks e ♪ well the sun is shining and the grass is green ♪ ♪ i'm way ahead of schedule with my trusty team ♪ ♪ there's heather on the hedges ♪ ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪

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will hurt public health. the first a committee to counter federal health recommendations led by florida surgeon general whose questionable advice includes not vaccinated children for covid, rhetoric against the advice from the fda, the cdc, the american medical association, american academy of pediatrics and perhaps feeling left out of their other bogus investigations republicans in congress are promising desantis wants a grand jury to investigate any and all wrong doing in florida with respect to covid vaccines. dr. pa tell served in the obama white house as health policy director an msnbc medical contributor. the chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university as well as a msnbc analyst, rick stengel. dr. patel the announcement came hours after a study that found

covid vaccines have saved 3.2 million lives in the u.s. you wonder how you think his efforts continue to bolster vaccine info and make the job harder? >> i've been in touch with colleagues in florida and nobody was surprised that desantis did something as kind of bold and audacious, state appeal for a grand jury investigation. i think what people were surprised by, though, the second piece of this is that he names -- i read the 20 pages of the petition to the state supreme court. he names everything from the scientists to your point, all the way to prescribers. so opening this door to saying if you prescribed a vaccine or administered a vaccine, that you would actually potentially be part of this investigation, and that there could be some actions taken against you, and haven't we had like this theme of 2022 where doctors are now forced to -- people, politicians are interfering with the relationship that i have with

the patient. this is kind of just insane that we're at this point right now. i -- it's so laughable, but it's real. it's black and white. also just a shot against the bow to the trump administration, which was part of developing operation warp speed. so it's -- yeah. it's hard to believe it's happening, but it is. >> eddie, dr. pa tell led me where i was going to go, is this about anything other than 2024, both, you know, you have polling showing that voters are considering desantis and there is, for him, an advantage in driving a wedge between th -- the extremists and trump vaccines, there's a lane he seems to be creating himself. >> absolutely. it's crude and crass, political opportunism, given what he's saying earlier and now, and we need to be very, very clear, over 3 million people that the vaccine has saved but we have to acknowledge the million plus who are dead, over 83,000 dead in

florida. and the kind of opportunism of the politicians playing games, who are appealing to the base, are in some ways contributing to the number of dead. it's not only -- it's beyond irresponsible. it's unconscionable and we have to understand it for what it is. this is really important, that we have to kind of -- we've been describing the problem as trumpism and donald trump, but you see a lot of republicans will vote for desantis. he's trafficking not just simply in trumpism, trafficking in a series of positions and views as we see here that i think cut to the heart of the republican base. i mean this is horrible in every way imaginable. >> right. he is putting migrants on planes to martha's vineyard. he has his election police task force out in full force. there is more than one way to present trumpism. there was dr. fauci today on the uncertainty about what desantis

wants to investigate exactly. take a listen. >> i don't have a clue, kate, what he's asking for. we have a vaccine that unequivocally is highly effective and safe and has saved literally millions of lives. i'm not sure what they're trying to do down there. >> it really is a move to say, we have questions but we're not going to share exactly what those are. we want answers but i'm not going to tell you what those are either. >> that makes it smack of being a political stunt, which it is, and eddie quite rightly put it in a moral context and maybe these guys are responsible for what's happened to people. but if i -- i'm wearing my political consultant hat i would say, what he's doing is just trying to set himself up as the candidate of federalism, the classic republican devolve power from the federal government to the states. here's what i did in my state, i did this, i did that, and so i

think that is what is behind it all, what's behind the stunt. i think the discrediting of science, which we played the old clip, he understand that vaccine saved millions of lives, but he's positioning himself for 2024. >> right. understanding that it has consequences to your point. >> yes. or not understanding. >> perhaps. dr. patel, i want your thoughts on the last hearing today from the house committee investigating covid. they released a report finding the trump administration's politics hurt the u.s. response, representative steve scalise tried to get randi weingarten to testify about school closures. wearing your public health hat, where you think we're headed in the next congress? >> i think it's not shocking to me this is the conversation we're having, when we should be having a conversation about the fact that covid numbers are going up again and congress has not passed any funding to allow for tests and vaccines after people have been literally dying from this, still 400 plus people

dying each day. wearing my public health hat, this is us defusing and obfuscating from talking about public health issues. i would love if somebody would say here are the lessons we have learned and how we're doing things together. this is all about shame and blame and embarrassment. i will say the trump administration, by no means, do i have like this loss kind of sense of how much they were involved in creating those numbers that eddie mentioned and the sad lives we've lost, but i want to hear people talking about what are we doing now and moving forward and i have yet to hear any of that. >> right. eddie, that is certainly the conversation we need to be having. >> well, absolutely. and one of the things we have to be mindful of and careful about, is not getting caught up in the 2024 horse race. because desantis, we know he has presidential ambitions and we understand that we could easily fall into what -- a shot over the bow of donald trump and get caught up in that and lose sight

of policy or a gesture or stunt that could lead to people dying. we need to be clear about that in our role. yes, it's important politically but what this man is trying to do will lead to folks dying and we need to understand the policy moving forward as the covid numbers are beginning to shoot up again. >> dr. patel, eddie, rick, you're staying with me. up next for us, renowned soccer journalist grant wahl pasted away at 49 covering the game he loved and got millions of others to love as well. how his wife wants us all to remember him. that's next.

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to become a guardian of liberty today. to know that he was so loved by so many people, it makes me feel a little bit less alone. it feels like, you know, that's a warm hug, when you really need it. for him soccer was more than just a sport. it was this thing that connected people around the world. there's so much about the culture, the politics of sport, of soccer. to him it was a way of really understanding people and where they were coming from. i want people to remember him as this kind, generous person who was really dedicated to social justice. >> that was dr. celine gounder the wife of journalist grant wahl this morning on cbs telling us how she wants her husband to be remembered.

dr. gounder confirmed the cause of his death, according to an autopsy, done back home in new york, the acclaimed 49-year-old soccer journalist died from an aortic aneurysm, a burst blood vessel. prompting speculation on social media there was foul play involved in his death. after wahl's reporting led up to the world cup was shown a spotlight on human rights violations in the host nation. we are back with dr. patel and rick stengel. dr. patel, before we get to the medical piece which i want you to walk us through, your thoughts as someone who knows dr. gounder. >> what [ inaudible ] i mean, i'm getting emotional and i couldn't have held it together. it shows you not only her grace and class, but how much love. they've been married for 20 years and they had so much love. grief is love. i mean just what you saw, was that expression of this

incredible love. i mean, man, what a -- and he did bring so much joy. that lebron james cover in "sports illustrated" where he wrote about this high school kid and this basketball phenomenon, it brought so much joy and he's done that. she really honored that. it's incredible. >> that's the capacity you know him, right, rick? >> yes. when i was at times "sports illustrated" was a sister magazine he was one of the great "sports illustrated" writers as dr. patel mentioned. he wrote the big first piece on lebron james. he was a master of more sports than just soccer. he brought a lot of joy to people talking about the larger meaning of sports. i remember him in that capacity. >> dr. patel, there has been a lot of conversation about cause of death here. dr. gounder said this morning in regard to the aneurysm it's one of those things that had been likely brewing for years. now that we know the official cause of death, can you talk us through what an aortic aneurysm does, how it present itself? >> yeah. so i'll just say the aorta is

the largest blood vessel in the body, largest artery and looks like a candy cane coming out of the heart. in that upper part of the candy cane at the hook, that's the ascending part or the part that grant had where they develop a weakness in the wall of the aorta and that wall and that weakness, it can get bigger and bigger and at a certain size if you're monitoring it and know about it you can get surgery. it can be well controlled with surgery. but likely what happened is that that weakness in the wall was there, he's a really young, healthy guy, didn't have really any symptoms, didn't seem to have any background that would cause a doctor to screen for that weakness in the aorta, and it had been brewing and at some point just burst. when it does, if you can get to a hospital and make that diagnosis in a timely manner, there is a surgical repair. people who can get that do recover. but this was so many unfortunately young guys diagnosed with bronchitis

before, so many things that he didn't have diagnosed and now we're learning about. >> i want to ask you about another part of that interview with dr. gounder she talks about soccer for him was a way of understanding people and the world. that tells us so much about who he was. >> absolutely. sport is a metaphor for human doingings and sufferings. the great c.r. james told the story of colonialism through the sport of cricket. we saw the game between france and morocco, and it was layered, burdened with history. now we will see france and argentina in the world cup and grant wahl, when i read its, he understood that sport was a window into the and it offers us opportunity to think about heroes. it gives us an opportunity to understand what loss means, what we can learn from victory, and what we can learn from defeat.

so you have these great writers who understand that sport is an entree into the human endeavor. and i'm not trying to be overdramatic here, but i just want to underscore how important his work was, and how sad his loss is. >> now dr. patel, i've been struck by the outpouring of love and support, the word "kind" i peering in almost everyone's description to the point about grant being loved. it's also true for us socially, culturally as we process these moments. >> it is. and i think we need to actually stop and acknowledge that we have to process these moments. and by the way, it's not linear. it's not like today i process and tomorrow it gets better and goes away. it is forever there. it's like the pebble in your shoe that sometimes you feel and sometimes it's just there and you don't realize it. i think what grant represents, it also represents just dealing with our own mortality. we're all saying the same thing.

he was amazing and kind. life is too short. that is normal, natural. and i highly encourage people to just talk about it, because repressing it or denying it just creates more of a problem. so in grant's spirit, i think we all deserve a moment to say what's important to us, what's important to the people who love us, and how can we love them back? >> keep that front and center. thank you all. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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right corner, spins around. into the box. got to be careful. and france has their second. [ cheers and applause ] >> that goal did put france in the final after their 2-nil win over morocco this afternoon. the final matchup of the world cup is set. it will be france, the incumbent champion who, four years ago, trying to repeat against a strong argentina team, featuring one of, if not the greatest soccer players on the planet, lionel messi. they'll square off sunday morning. that does it for me this hour. thanks for watching. jason johnson picks up the next hour of "deadline: white house." a look at those upcoming january

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when true democracy goes away, people get hurt. it has real-life consequences. it's not some abstract political science question. we are all affected. and we take this for grant it, and we can't. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. i'm jason johnson in for nicolle wallace. a stark warning from former president obama last month ahead of the midterm elections when american democracy was on the ballot. although democracy did prevail

in most races, obama's words remain relevant, because the american experiment needs to stand tall on the world stage as a beacon of what it looks like to consistently fight for a functional democracy, as we see other nations grapple with power struggles and the forces of autocracy. in brazil, supporters of brazil bolsinaro attacked the headquarters after brazil attacked the election results, and was the latest showdown following weeks of protests. "the washington post" reports --

>> last week, peru saw its president try to undermine an impeachment government by installing his own government. he was ousted and arrested. but demonstrations have erupted from the a.p. >> meanwhile, anti-democratic forces in the united states continue to undermine faith in our elections. as the january 6th select committee readies its final report on the capitol insurrection, the committee will host its final meeting monday

where criminal referrals against the former president and allies for attempting to overturn the election results are expected. let's bring in my guests now. with me here onset is brian reynolds, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security, as well as a co-founder of the political party forward. jackie, i'll start with you. what do we know about what we can get out of this january 6th final report? what kinds of things are they going to have in this final report? why are they making criminal referrals? lay this situation out for us. >> yeah, jason, i think it's still a little bit of a question mark at this moment in time, as there are few days heft before monday's preliminary hearing, and what's going to be the final

hearing for the committee, where they will vote to adopt the final report. and then make criminal referrals along with some other referrals. for example, they will potentially refer some members to the ethics committee for review, make recommendations to the s.e.c., make reforms to campaign finance. then on wednesday, we are to expect the actual, final report. it's supposed to be eight chapters long and expected to mirror what we have seen in the public hearings. that sort of arc of the former president's attempting to overturn the results of the election and narrowly focused on former president trump. but that debate over what is going to be left on the cutting room floor is one that is still playing out amongst committee members and investigators right now, as they do work to finalize it. you know, we have been told that there is going to be a lot of information potentially included in theappendixes, whatever is

sourced in the actual report. but we also have been told and previously reported that some of the chapters that flesh out some of the intelligence failures, some of the ways that trump allies and republican allies tried to fund the efforts to attend the stop the steal rally on the ellipse, and some of the research and expert briefs done and depositions with excerpts on extremism, me lis militia group. that material is still in question about whether or not we're going to see it next week. >> i'm curious about this. when i hear jackie lay out this report, it's almost as if, and i thought this all along, that january 6th did the homework for the doj and they're kind of sliding it to them now. how do you think the sort of reaction is going to be?

the department of justice is going to accept this criminal referral, but how does this actually play out? do they give it directly to the attorney general? does it go to the special prosecutor? what is the process by which this final report is actually going to get in the hands of the men and women who are investigating these issues? >> well, in terms of just the formality, it goes to the office of legislative affairs at doj. but the big point is this cache of information is, you know, thousands of pages, and doj gets it not a second before the general public, which was an interesting kind of wrinkle. i think people have accurately said that, you know, doj is going to make an independent judgment, and in that sense, it doesn't have a big impact. but i think also people have begun to realize, including on the committee, it serves an independent function in terms of

the committee is reporting to the people what happened, and i think the latest, the notion that this is going to be not just trump, but it looks like four others who were the sort of villains of the individual set pieces that they presented so effectively over the course of the summer and fall. it's important, because it drives home to the public that trump did not act alone. there were, as in other scandals, willing participants. that's a big part of the story. so i don't think all of a sudden it has a thunderous when it lands on the floor of doj. but nevertheless, it's important for its own reasons, and i think the committee is going, you know, along those lines. that's part of what is happening, members of the committee want to focus like a spear on trump himself. others want to put in some of these other things that are important but in the overall

theme of things maybe secondary. and there seems to be a tussle behind the scenes on that basis. >> so miles, to me, what else are we doing over the summer except watching the hearings? this is sort of the novelization of something we have seen. if you gave me a book and said this is a the novelization of "a christmas story," i already know that ralphie got his tongue frozen. so what is the political impact of this? the public will review this. this may be more interesting than the mueller report. what is the political impact once this is out in writing? >> i think the honest answer, i think the actual political impact is a roar shack test. people are going to use this report to point to wrongdoing, and people who dismissed the select committee the entire time are not going to open the website or the pdf and they're

not going to share the report and try not to pay attention to it. so i think that's the political impact. i want to go back to what you said about the starr and mueller reports, and other congressional reports from the 9/11 commission. this is more significant than all of those. we might have a bipartisan, congressional committee, potentially making a criminal referral of an ex-american president or senior officials that were tied to him for potentially trying to overthrow a lawful election. this is a massively significant congressional report. what we often see in law enforcement investigations is that people who did wrong are often going to get held accountable for bread and butter reasons. basic fraud and corruption. those are the things that ultimately get folks in the end. as jackie pointed out, the things that are left on the cutting room floor are things that a future democratic congress might want to go back to, especially those intelligence failure it is that doesn't make it in.

>> jackie, you said, okay, things are on the cutting room floor. is there a possibility that extra bits and pieces of this report, instead of being handed to the doj, they might go to local law enforcement, they might go to law enforcement in a particular state, another agency and say look, we're not going to give this information, but this person, you know, made illegal use of federal property when they printed out documents for the january 6th insurrection or something like that, is there a possibility that the committee is handing out smaller versions of this to local law enforcement in order to get criminal prosecution, because we never know when the doj is going to do anything? >> that is a really good question. we do know that the committee does have their sights set on potentially recommending that various lawyers involved in the effort to overturn the election are disbarred. so that information and evidence, while aired to the general public, it could also go to these local entities that would eventually proceed with

what it would require to disbar certain characters that were, again, involved with the former president's attempts to try to obstruct congressional proceedings, and disrupt the electoral certification on january 6th. people like john eastman have already been disbarred, so we could be hearing a lot of names that were are not familiar with, lawyers in battleground states who had signed on to various suits, maybe engaged in unethical or criminal behavior that, you know, the committee thinks that the doj might not necessarily take up that. there have been types and other punishment imposed in other ways, but i am curious to see on monday how much the committee actually turns over when they do make these criminal referrals, as we discussed previously the department of justice has been

waiting for the mountain of evidence from the congressional committee. they haven't gotten that yet. and while it's quite possible the doj already has gathered this material and potentially more on their own, you know, there could be still some stones unturned on their end, and i think they will be watching monday and report on wednesday as closely as we all are. >> i'm going to may you some sound from committee witnesses, speaking out basically how corrupt this guy is. i want to get your thoughts on the other side. >> even his lawyer, john eastman, admitted in front of president trump that this plan would break the law by violating the electoral count act. >> did john eastman ever admit, as far as you know, in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral count act? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> did you tell the president in

that second call that you supported him, that you voted for him, but that you were not going to do anything illegal for him? >> i did, sir. >> i overheard the president say something to the effect of, i don't care that they have weapons, they're not here to hurt me. take the "f"-ing mags away. let me people mar to have the capitol, and take the "f"-ing mags away. z >> harry, when you hear that, this is -- it's sort of the super cut of what we heard over the summer. when you hear that, is there any way that the doj could accept this and say yeah, yeah, we knew this already, we're just adding to it. or do you think the rerelease of this kind of information and testimony from trump's own people saying yes, he did that. we know it, we were there, do you think that lights a spark under the doj or the special prosecutor to move ahead with this process, especially since the house has split the republicans? >> yes. although i think the spark has already lit and is really

burning. it's kind of a conflagration there to see what they have done since smith has taken the reins of the investigation. so i don't think there's lack of resolve there, but your point is a good one, because there's some evidence that they developed that the doj for legal reasons hasn't been able to duplicate. and when it comes our way, of course, there's other stuff that they have that we don't. so we have just seen about a half of the meadows' nexts, and they are mind bending and made clear there's some very willing participants. they presumably have or will get the other half. but there's no doubt that it has the same impact on them, what the doubt is, has it already had that? are they already hot on the trail? and, you know, it's a bit of a black box, but to indications, they are and it has. >> miles, this is what gets me.

i'm always very skeptical of saying the united states is the beacon of the world. but it does matter that while we're battling an attempted coup by a former president, you have a former president, bolsonaro in brazil attempting the same thing. in peru, the former president attempted to dissolve congress. and his own people took him to jail, and now you have the whole country being taken over. what does it do to the rest of the world when the united states is imbroiled in its own battles, do you think that has much of an impact or are these parallel coups happening for no reason? >> any student of mystery would see we have gone through other periods where autocrats band together around the world. look at world war i, world war ii, the cold war, nation states band together with like-minded

states. democrats with a small d and autocrats band together. but now the supporters are connecting online and across boarders. we are seeing people on the far right, whether it's in latin america, whether it's in europe and elsewhere connecting with each other, sharing tactics, techniques and procedures to commit acts of violence. that's what is alarming here. i don't know that we have seen evidence that those direct connections between far-right movements here and in brazil and other places with regard to these recent attacks. but it would not surprise me, because these groups are connecting, and it's being driven by leaders at the top. the sore loser phenomenon is traveling around the world. >> frankly, what you have in brazil is a situation where the far-right candidate is saying i don't like this, i'm taking over. in peru, it's a former left wing

president. the other thought is, do you think this is impacted by the fact that having seen what happened in america over the last couple of years, some of the right-wing movements are like, they're not going to do with anything. we're no longer afraid that america may step in economically, let alone militarily, and shut this down. is that a possibility? >> it is. i want to go back in time. we sort of saw this broad cast before donald trump even became president. steve bannon was out there, very actively saying he wanted to go foment populous movements around the world. throw out far right or far left, he wanted to foment these populous movements around the world. in the beginning of the trump years, the president named him on the national security council. and my former boss, john kelly, almost had a heart attack. we persuaded the white house to pull him off the national security council so he wouldn't be in those sensitive foreign policy discussions, but a lot of those maga figures are making their way back into different

places in government, including the new republican majority in the house. >> most definitely. thank you so much for spending time with us today. miles taylor is sticking with us for the hour. when we return, chaos at twitter, as elon musk shakes up the social network platform's legal team and considers ending severance packages. plus, new signs that republicans just might be ready to dump trump. we say this all the time, but seriously, it might happen this time. and concern over the supreme court's growing politicalization was already bad. now it's getting worse as brett kavanaugh parties with a who's who of top leaders with the conservative right. "deadline: white house" continues after a break. house" continues after a break. for you, like making them softer and fresher. plus, downy fights fading and stretching. make your laundry softer, fresher,

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six weeks into elon musk's tenure at twitter, now he reportedly can't pay the bills. "the new york times" reports that, to cut costs, twitter has not paid rent for its san francisco headquarters or any of its global offices for weeks. three people close to the company said. now twitter is discussing not paying severance for all those people musk fired. the times adding, twitter's leaders have also discussed the consequences of denying severance payments to thousands of people who have been laid off since the takeover. two people familiar with the talks said. this comes amid increasingly erratic behavior from musk that could have dangerous real-world consequences.

in what "the washington post" says is a move intended to counter criticism of his early stewardship of twitter, the number of moderators on the lookout for inappropriate content has been slashed. and just a few experts on child exploitation remain. musk lashed out over the weekend, forcing the former head of safety to flee his home. musk also disbanding the trust and safety council. i think we can safely say that the former richest man in the world, getting booed at a chappell show and slashing the staff that keep your $44 billion acquisition functional, maybe she's not playing 3-d chess after all. i never believed that elon musk was playing 3-d chess, but what

the heck is going on there? i mean, i know high schoolers that are working night manage shifts at wendy's that are doing a better job than what he appears to be doing. what is the thought process behind some of his decision making when it comes to slashing the security and protocols people overlooking the site? >> look, i think musk is throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what works. and this is -- this is part of his rein. he is reining in a veryrratic m. he is making news every day. he's doing shock decisions, whether that's being former president trump back on the platform or anti-vaxers or criticizing fauci or today he banned the person who has been tracking his personal jet as it travels. he is trying every day to make sure that twitter ends up in the

headlines, taking a lot of oxygen out of other reporting. and hoping that drives eyeballs. that's maybe a charitable way of looking at it, that this is strategic, that a lot of these moves are meant to shock us. when it comes to paying the bill, look, he has made the overpaying that he did for twitter, the $44 billion that he spent on the platform, it's now twitter's problem. twitter has to assume that debt, and that comes in with interest payments worth more than $1.2 billion a year at a variable rate. so this is -- this is a really extreme financial burden for the company. and he's been alienating advertisers and changing the business model. so i think that this is just a really troubling time at twitter. a lot of the former employees have been very concerned about the future of the platform. you know, it doesn't sound like he has a very coherent plan.

>> i want to follow up with this. i don't know how to run a billion dollar tech company, but it doesn't appear that he has a plan from internal people. are there outside observers who say hey, look, this is normal chaos, we're just hearing about it because elon musk likes being in public, are there outside people who are normally objective who see this as being a rough start and this will clean itself up? >> i wouldn't call them objective, but former ceo jack dorsey penned a blog post yesterday saying he's been supportive of some of the new things that musk is trying, trying to fix this idea that twitter has too much control over content. but then he goes today and bans the account tracking his personal jet. so i think what we have heard over and over from our sources, people want to give him the

benefit of the doubt. he can be charming. he has good ideas and good questions. when you're in person with musk, he can bring you along for the ride and make you believe that it's going to work out. and then he goes and tweets something, and everything seems to be set aflame. so i think that is really the contrast we're seeing. it was described today in business week as shakespearean. this is like a cult of personality around this guy. he's alienating some, driving other supporters on the right especially. and i think that the result of it is just a constant whiplash for everyone involved, including those who he owes money to. >> miles, elon musk has gone from willing, you kno -- lots

of people said twitter is a hell site, this, that, and the other. but the implication of problematic people, people kicked off because they were abusive to everybody in the club, because they were doxing people and now we're seeing more weird gambling ads and things like that, from a political perspective, how dangerous is it that elon is now sticking his thumb on the scale and amplifying problematic beliefs on the biggest forum on the planet? >> i'm going to caveat this by saying life-long conservative with a small c, i'm all for the free market. he can drive the thing into the ground if he wants to. but i want to give you the national security perspective. after i left government, i ran national security relations and policy over at google, and i worked with a lot of these trust and safety people that elon musk has fired. these folks are mission critical. even if you are not on twitter and laughing at this dumpster fire, this affects you, and here's why. foreign adversaries actively

manipulate this platform to start debates, to warp american politics. this is happening. this isn't a fantasy. it's a nightmare, not a fantasy. but russia, china, these other nation states, iran, are manipulating that platform to manipulate our political system. >> there were saudi spies who were -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> twitter isn't real life, we know that's not true. otherwise he doesn't get booed on stage. but how does that manifest itself? you have people who say, well, they're starting these fake conversations, we don't know what to do with them. how with we seen that manifest itself? is it just qanon, attacks on january 6th? what are some examples of how twitter can be manipulated and have real-world consequences? >> we saw it in 2016 where the

russians were trying to get people to go to protests, trying to inflame racial tension in the united states. so it can jump the tracks from virtual to violent and real world very, very quickly. i don't know if we have seen too many examples of that yet, but elon musk is saying one thing to the users, and another thing to advertisers. i used to love elon musk. now he's telling the users, unlimited free speech, go crazy, then saying to the advertisers, don't worry, trust in safety. we will protect this platform. so i don't think we quite know what he's doing with this yet. so if there was one piece of branding advice, it would be to people outside of twitter. now is a good time to start a competitor to twitter. users want out and want safer, better and more civil. >> we're trying to brand miles as the ryan reynolds look alike. sarah, this is something that i think also affects journalism.

i'm a journalism professor at morgan state university. people getting into this business are saying hey, without twitter, how do i do journalism? if you're 1, 19 years old, you grew up saying i have to build a following. what is the impact of this sort of dissolution of twitter on the ability of people to conduct journalism? i'm learning about the protests in peru, i find that information all over the world on twitter. if this is no longer a safe space from an informational standpoint, how does that affect journalism? >> i think you have to be upping your ability to verify everything that you hear, especially as we know that those verification badges that are currently on government accounts are going away within a few months, according to elon. so trust by verify, make sure that the information you're

getting is solid. don't just repeat things that you see on the internet, even if you think that this person has a lot of followers, it doesn't mean that they are the most verifiable source of information. rely on public records, on documents, internal document it is you must, because this is -- this is a company just from rely on sources. twitter no longer has a communications team. so i think that this is -- this is one of those moments where, if somebody says yeah, there are more users on twitter or this is happening, that is happening, you have to find people who have witnessed it and know what's really going on. i think it makes the job harder and makes the promotional job harder. a lot of journalists have relied on twitter to build the chamber -- the echo chamber of people who will respond to their reporting. but there are other platforms

for that. there's instagram, linked in, a lot of journalists are on tiktok now. so i think that really is just -- go back to first principles of journalism and make sure when you write something, that you have done as much as you can to verify it. >> so we're going back to old school journalism. sarah, thank you for spending time with us on "deadline: white house." miles is sticking with me. when we return, fresh off of the mostly disastrous midterm elections, where some of the disgraced ex-president's -- republicans might be ready to move on, sort of. that story after a quick break. k - to put the financial well-being of you and your family first. i promise to serve, not sell. i promise our relationship will be one of partnership and trust. i am a fiduciary, not just some of the time, but all of the time. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people

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is that's really the worst scenario. that's almost the scenario that biden wishes for. i've said very clearly, i think the republican party ought to go a different direction. i'm going to work hard to make sure there's the right choices in there and we make the right selection. so i think it's time to move on, and i think there's many that will join in that effort. >> it's bound to happen if you destroy enough basic principles of trust, if you drag your party to the ground, even today's republican party might not tolerate it a third time. that was asa huchenson who appears to be stepping away from donald trump.

if the midterms weren't proof enough, voters are ready, too. "the wall street journal"'s poll view ron desantis more favorably, and more than half would give him their vote. just 38% would vote for trump. joining our conversation is matt dowd, and cornell belcher, pollster and miles is back, as well. cornell, i'll start with you. we all look like we're about to go carolling. >> and we are. right after the show. >> here's the thing. i understand this idea that some prominent republicans are going to say they're moving away from trump, because they want his job, right? if you're going to run against him, you're going to say hey, i think we're moving beyond trump, et cetera, et cetera. does that mean your regular rank and file primary voter is moving against trump? i'm skeptical that's happening.

>> let's level set for a moment. there's a lot of conversation about how terrible some of the republican candidates were in the past election. and they want to blame trump for it. you know, the voters, the primary voters of georgia picked herschel walker. the primary voters of arizona picked kari lake. so primary voters are picking these candidates. so i don't know how far you can move away from trump if the primary voters are choosing those candidates. it is a little bothersome to me that they are now moving away from trump. it wasn't racism, it wasn't misogyny or any of the divisiveness. it's they don't see him as, as, as positive for them from an electoral standpoint. i think it's bankrupt. but i will -- my last point here is, careful about these early polls. i'm a pollster. polls to this point, they are -- they're not worth the paper that they're printed on. go back to 2004. at this point, a guy by the name

of general wesley clark was leading in the polls, and so careful with these polls. i still think trump has a strong hold on the base vote of the republican party. >> i think this is a key thing that cornell is talking about here. it doesn't matter if donald trump is the head of the ticket or the leader of the party. as long as trumpism is still a motivating factor in pennsylvania, in wisconsin, in georgia, and in arizona. trumpism is still going to lead to crazy, nutty candidates that the national party can't stop. so is moving away from him really doing something if your local voters are thirsting for that kind of candidate? >> well, my fear, i think you're right, but my fear is moving away from him, is not going to go towards something better, but something worse because of how the party has evolved. as i always have said, and others have said this, if trump

didn't change the republican party, he reflected the republican party. in 2016, give him credit. he understood the republican party as it existed then, better than any of the other republicans who held office, including jeb bush, marco rubio, chris christie. they didn't know what the republican party had become, donald trump did. now he's magnified it to a large degree. i think some of donald trump's support among the rank and file has deteriorated some. but let me give you -- i tweeted this out earlier today. donald trump is more popular today among republican primary voters today than he was when he won the nomination in 2016, in may of 2016. he's more popular today among republicans than he was then. second, as more republicans want him to run for a second term, democrats want joe biden to run for a second term. think about that. more republicans want donald trump to be their nominee. and democrats want joe biden,

who is the incumbent president, want joe biden to be the nominee. so these polls, i agree with cornell. you have to take these with a grain of salt. but these respect reflective of the dynamic that is about to exist. if you look at polls in 2015 that were one on one, every single republican at the time in 2015, if it was one on one, was beating donald trump. the problem is, if this is a multicandidate field, anywhere close, even half as large as it was in 2016, donald trump is going to get 38, 40% of the vote. if that's split up among a bunch of trump, juniors, which is what it is likely to be, including ron desantis, and i don't expect ron desantis to wear well over time, just watching him in florida. if it's a multicandidate field, 40% of the vote wins every primary. that's the problem, unless they

coalesce around one candidate and take on donald trump now or in january or february. donald trump, if he wants it, if he wants the nomination, he's going to have the nomination, unless the republicans do that. >> miles, when i think of the idea of a bunch of mini trumps running against the original, people like the original recipe flavor. it's just going to be a bunch of people throwing slurs at each other and trump will win that contest. two things, why would anyone think that they have a chance against him in the primary? and two, look, you helped found the forward party. will there be republicans that say i hate this guy, i can't vote for the democrats, is this a chance for a third party person to be effective or it's either the crazy guy or the semi functional democrats? >> we are seeing people leave the republican party in droves. most of those people won't go to

the democratic party, because they have spent their lives over in one tribe. but if we can create, in general, more tribes for them to go into in the independent space, that's a good thing for democracy, because it makes it easier for those people if the democrats are the pro democracy party to caucus with the democrats. so now half of americans say they're political independents and not democrats or republicans. that tribe needs some homes to go to. otherwise, they will be won over and they are cede the battlefield to the extremes. matthew dowd said it so articulate just now, one of the points that i want to foot stomp, i want to go back 250 years and hat tip one of the founders. i think it was madison in the federalist papers said ambition needs to be made to counteract ambition. that was one of the best defenses against trump. people hoped he would be impeached or booted out with the

25th amendment, and i witnessed those conversations. none of those things worked. what worked? beating him at the polls. that's the best hope to get donald trump out of our politics is in the primary. don't write him off yet. people want to write his political eulogy, while his supporters still love him. but i think the bigger concern is, as you know, jason, the mini trumps. we are seeing a lot of mini trumps emerge. this is a generational challenge for conservatives of conscience around the country who want to take the party back. >> structural, it's money. another founder said money speaks. but it's money. trump right now has a huge money advantage. and for third party people, i wish i could be a third party, but it's a $100 million game. >> when we return, why justice

brett kavanaugh friday night plans are raising concerns about the politicalization at the united states supreme court. "deadline: white house" returns after a break. t. "deadline: white house" returns after a break. hola señorita, do you like gazpacho? the wishing star will give me my lives back. is the great puss in boots asking for help? you ok? si. i am good. the dark forest. we step through as one. one, two... after you. wait, what? [ screams ] dog? still alive? only in theaters. ♪ well the sun is shining and the grass is green ♪ ♪ i'm way ahead of schedule with my trusty team ♪ ♪ there's heather on the hedges ♪ ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? timber... [ sighs heavily ]

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helpnokidhungry.org and help feed hungry kids today. amid grave concerns about the growing politicalization of the court, justice brett kavanaugh attended a hollywood party of matt sclapp. "the washington post" points out

that this is part of a disturbing trend on the part of conservative justices. appearing only in front of echo chambers, writing, conservative justices seen lately inclined to favor friendly institutions. justice alito appeared at the heritage foundation. amy coney barrett spoke last year at the university of louisville's mcconnell senator, named for the senator who engineered her hasty confirmation. justice thomas spoke at a conference at the manhattan and hoover institution, and attended a celebration of his 30 years on the bench. everybody is back. matt, i'm going to start with you. i am beyond i'm beyond concerned about the supreme court, from just a pure symbolic and imagery standpoint. is it that these justices are just trolls the american people? do they not care about

pretending to look objective anymore? i'm not saying that the justices don't have ideological leanings, but that's entirely different than continually running to maga and conservative events and basically thumbing your nose at the public that you're actually going to go into different kinds of rulings. >> i think you're right. of all the disturbing things that happened over the last seven years related to the politics we're in, what happened to the supreme court to me is the most dangerous and most disturbing. to me it's two this inns that have fundamentally happened. happened. one, what we saw for most of our life is that an ends justifies the means has completely infiltrated our politics, which is do whatever it takes to get the ends you want, even if that i corrupt and illegal. that's seeped into the supreme court. we want to get this done, it

doesn't matter the means by which we do that. the second thing is this lack of accountability on a lifetime judicial appointment is incredibly problematic. what incentive or disincentive do they have not to do these things? justice thomas doesn't even recuse himself on decisions that involve his wife, who is involved in trying to overturn an election, has schemed to overthrow an election. he's making decisions based upon things his wife was roofed with. we have gotten to the point where the court completely the ends justifies the means and i would argue is a base of christian nationalism in america. second is, with no accountability, it's going to run wild. until there's some level of guardrails, which i always thought was on the supreme court, there were some guardrails on the supreme court, maybe self-imposed, but now we realize that they no longer work in america. we saw that with the former

president trump, we've seen it with republicans in leadership. self-imposed guardrails don't work. until those are imposed, we're going to continue seeing this. >> matthew daoud, cornel belger, and miles, thank you for your time today. a quick break and we'll be right back. time today a quick break and we'll be right back ♪ from santa claus, indiana to snowflake, arizona and everywhere in between. we're holiday ready with fast and reliable delivery, serving every address in america. the united states postal service. a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days! cold coming on? zicam is the number one cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula.

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thank you for joining us this wednesday. nicolle returns tomorrow, to quote li'l john, all i want for christmas is "the beat" with ari