running again in 2024, he had dinner with a white supremacist, suggested he wanted to terminate the constitution, his business has been found guilty in a civil court in new york, more legal investigations closing in, and most importantly, he's got the whiff of a loser, so many candidates lost in november's midterms. interesting to say the least where this goes from here. politics reporter, lachlan mckay, we appreciate it as always. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. madame speaker, you and i have disagreed politically on many things over the years, but we were never disagreeable to each other, and madame speaker, i have to say my girls told me, tell the speaker how much we admire her.

you have been incredibly effective as the leader of your caucus. you know, the younger generation today has a saying, game recognizes game. >> former house speaker john boehner in a touching tribute to nancy pelosi as she prepares to end her historic tenure as speaker. wow. plus, the latest on efforts to prevent a government shut down as lawmakers buy more time to hammer out a deal. we'll have the latest from capitol hill, and we're also digging into the latest polling that shows donald trump way behind florida governor ron desantis for the next republican presidential nomination, and ron desantis hasn't even said whether he's running or not. >> right? >> the numbers also come with a warning sign that may explain why the governor is constantly trying to prove that he can out trump trump. and we'll explain that. >> yeah, it's really something. you even look at the hill

headline this morning about a quinnipiac poll that has donald trump at his lowest approval rating since 2015. he's down to 31%. i heard lemire coming in. you know, you got the movie, i think it was the pacino movie "scent of a lady." >> "scent of a woman." >> where is this going? >> well, lemire has a movie title for donald trump "whiff of a loser," he said he's got a whiff of a loser. wow, boston misses a couple of trades, and this guy, the teeth come out. >> there's a bitterness there, isn't there, just coming through everything. >> "scent of a woman," "whiff of a loser" starring donald trump. john boehner wasn't speaker of the house that long ago, and you know, that's the way when i was

there and before i got to congress after i left congress, that's the way leaders treated each other, republicans and democrats. i remember newt gingrich, by the time he left was loathed. i remember having so much respect for democrats who newt had tried to destroy, individuals in the chamber when he was saying good-bye, giving him a standing ovation out of respect from someone who chose to serve their country. it worked with him sometimes. this is, by the way, what republicans used to do. what john boehner did when they didn't lose elections every year. let me say that again. they think it's weak, like who's the guy who wants to be speaker now. kevin, my kevin. kevin mccarthy didn't go to nancy pelosi's fairwell speech.

that would have never happened before he was busy. >> yeah, he was busy. may have been in a meeting with steve miller. you tell your staff, i need to be on the floor when nancy pelosi has her farewell address. you don't worry. if people in your caucus don't like that, you say, listen, i'm in the game to win here, and there's nothing wrong with being nice and respectful to people we work with. it sounds radical to republicans, but, again, these republicans are republicans that lose every year now, so maybe they should try being, like, nice. respectful. decent. at least pretend even if they don't feel it in their heart s. >> that was a striking moment, not just because it was kind of sweet to see but for the exact reasons you laid out. john boehner was the speaker of the house until fall of 2015. that was only seven years ago. think of where we are now, and

what a marker that speech was yesterday to remind us how low the republican party has sunk where just two months ago, less than two months ago, you had prominent republicans mocking nancy pelosi after her husband was almost killed inside their house by a man who was looking for nancy pelosi, perhaps to assassinate her. just think about that space of seven years. john boehner, a man who now weeps for speaker pelosi because of the way he feels about her, what she represents, the example she set for his own daughters, and now you have members of the republican party mocking nancy pelosi in an assassination attempt at her home. it is a really stunning snapshot of what's happened to the party in such a short time. >> and that's what they did. en kevin mccarthy, remember his statement, when he was handing the gavel to then speaker pelosi. >> don't even. >> saying that he wanted to hit

her in the head or something like that. this is third grade stuff, you think you're going to get a laugh from something like this, when actually people just look at you and say, you don't deserve to actually represent anybody. again, mika and i did something last night. we practiced mindfulness, we watched a couple of shows on another network, and it really is extraordinary how stupid they are. >> no, you're supposed to accept they're trying their best. >> they're trying their best, when it comes to what they think, like, strategy is. like what will work for them. they think they're owning the libs and they're not. you just sit there going, come on. >> you have to accept they're doing the best they can. >> they need to do better. not for me, not for you. for themselves. >> yeah. >> and again, well, they need to recalibrate because when they think, willie, that they're

owning the libs, when they think they're like, getting a shot off at their political opponents politically. they're just shooting themselves in the foot, and i put my head in my hands last night going oh, my god, the washington generals, they're never going to be able to stop meadowlark lemon like this. >> joe, you've got to stop watching that. go back and watch arrested development, something that brings joy to your life, bateman, and arnett, let them guide you through your evenings. we're going to talk about donald trump's poll numbers sliding the party. look at the results of the midterm elections. people looked at this and said no thank you. on the other hand, for people you're talking about their ratings in that world are good. they got people listening to their podcast, the echo chamber is echoing back to them, and

giving them things they want out of it. i don't think they'll stop. if you're a politician, a republican interested in winning elections, there's just a whole lot of evidence it's not working for you right now. >> along with joe, willie and me. >> 2017 they lost, 2018 they lost. >> i'm hoping someone will hear you. ronna. >> 2020 they lost. >> kev. >> 2022. at the reagan library was a disaster. it was an absolute disaster, and it was a disaster. >> the thing is donald trump doesn't care. >> well, no, and the thing is -- >> he doesn't care about anybody. >> especially you, republicans, who are still for some reason walking the plank for him. along with joe, willie and me, we have former white house communications director under president obama, jen palmieri, she's the cohost of show time's "the circus," presidential historian, jon meacham is with us this morning, and the host of

"way too early," whose next book is called "whiff of a loser," white house political bureau, jonathan lemire. is donald trump's reality show about to be cancelled. another poll shows the former president who in recent weeks dined with a holocaust denier and anti-semite, and who expressed his desire to cancel constitution because he lost the 2020 election is now being rejected by some of the same republican base that had stood by him over the past six years. the new poll from the "wall street journal" shows florida governor ron desantis cementing an early lead over donald trump in the race for the next presidential nominee. desantis leading trump by double digits, 14 points. he also hasn't even announced he may not run for president. desantis beats trump in terms of likability.

86% of republicans hold a favorable view of the governor, compared to 74% for trump. trump leads desantis by 16 points, among republican voters who describe themselves as very conservative. while desantis leads among those who describe themselves as somewhat conservative. this comes on the heels of a usa today suffolk poll showing trump trailing desantis by 23 points. >> jon meacham, ronald reagan famously said that democracy has to be fought for every generation. that every generation has to remain vigilant. that said, i do wonder whether if the past six years, if the past six years have been, perhaps, the greatest threat to american democracy, where you have a president openly talking about his attorney general arresting, his presidential candidate, trying to bribe foreign leaders, and, oh, my

god, trying to stop the peaceful transition of power. i'm wondering if these polls suggest that maybe, just maybe, that the doomsday clock has ticked become from 5 to 12 to maybe 11:45. >> i hope so. and i think that there's something both thrilling and terrifying about that proposition. it's thrilling because it means that american democracy may, in fact, survive and even thrive. and that's what a lot of us have been arguing for and pounding on our highchairs about for a long time now. it's terrifying or unsettling i should say because, i was thinking about this last night, i was not watching what you were watching, it occurred to me

because -- because the worst did not happen, it's going to be incumbent on thoughtful engaged citizens to bear in mind how close we have come to the abyss. because it's going to be easy for those who were in the enabling caucus to say, oh, you all were, you know -- you were exaggerating, it was chicken little. but just because something horrible did not fully come to fruition does not mean that something horrible did not very nearly come to fruition. >> and still could. >> how fascinating that the same people who said, oh, we were always hyperventilating, catastrophizing, over playing the trump threat are the same people who were deadly silent when donald trump calls about terminating the united states

constitution. so everything we warned about, whether it was his racism, his anti-semitism, whether it was his bigotry, has all been confirmed over the past several weeks. i do wonder, jon, because your lincoln book is extraordinary, and i don't have favorite children, and i don't have favorite jon meacham presidential biographies, but if i did, this one would be right there. i'm wondering what do you learn about this moment over the past six years from the year or two that you spent with abraham lincoln? what has he taught you not only about the past five, six years, but about the years to come, how vigilant we need to be? >> that democracy is entirely a human enterprise, and it's as fragile and as fallible as we

are. you know, the substance of our laws is vital. i mean, we have to have that. but there's also the spirit of it. lincoln said, as i would not be a slave, so i would not be a master, that expresses my definition of democracy, and if we don't recognize each other as inherently equal and dignified, then the enterprise collapses. if power is the most important thing as opposed to any kind of principle, and i'm not playing the organ here or the kettle drums, this is pretty straightforward, you just have to believe something other than i should be in power. and that's what the 45th president believes. and if you have that moral commitment, then you are more likely to do the right thing in extremists and in hours of crisis, which is what lincoln did. we're in exactly the season that

i think shaped us ever since, which is that there was a compromise on the table, in 1860, 1861, to extend slavery to the southern parts of the western territories and therefore avoid war. it was the kind of thing we always did. that was the kind of compromise we used to strike, and lincoln said no. and everybody around him was saying yes, and his reason was we have said that slavery is wrong and cannot be extended. they believe the white south that slavery is right and should be, and on that question hangs the entire union. and he was like winston churchill in 1940, he knew that appeasement had not worked and that's a vital lesson for us now, and it's really tricky. people don't like being told that they were wrong. but people have -- but we owe a duty to the truth, a duty to the facts of the matter to remember

how close we have come, and i think that, as you say, it's not over. >> it's not over. >> but it is, look, this is a better december than we've had in six years. >> yes, it is. >> so, you know, obviously the sense that perhaps the show is shutting down, the trump show, you know, it starts with the january 6th convictions that we're seeing along the way, the results of the midterm elections, these polls showing ron desantis beating trump in a match up that doesn't even exist because ron desantis hasn't even announced. >> hasn't decided what he's going to do. >> some experts would see this like the fish flapping on the dock, but the fish could fall back in the water. >> that's one way to put it. >> here's donald trump announcing -- >> doing a little flopping, flipping and flopping here, take a look. >> on his platform. >> america needs a superhero.

>> we are in third grade. i mean, we are in third grade. >> i thought there was going to be -- that's what it was? >> willie, you better take it. i'm about to -- i'm about to start laughing uncontrollably. >> it's heartbreaking in a way, isn't it? it's heartbreaking for him. jen, you look at there's going to be a major announcement. who knows what that will be tonight, but this clearly, if you look at the data, if you look at these polls from the last couple of days, there have to be meetings going on in tallahassee where ron desantis and his team are saying, we're up by 20 points on this guy, maybe we don't miss our moment. maybe we jump in the race. it's going to take a nerve to cross the guy who helped him get in. they have to be having those conversations at this point. >> just figuring out when is the right time.

right now you see trump is just sort of flailing and doing nothing to help himself. i mean, at other times, he's found an ability to sort of recalibrate. you know, i could imagine him having gone, you know, maybe after walker lost to georgia in the runoff. go to each of these states where people lost and point out all the things that these candidates did wrong, the people he endorsed, they failed him. only i can fix this. right. that's a big thing. only i can fix it. he could have torn down the candidates and, by doing so, sort of get at the pseudo trump that desantis is. he tried that a little bit, he called him ron desanctimonious, i thought that was pretty good. right? but he's not showing any of that game. meanwhile, in tallahassee, desantis did try to push out a couple of nights ago, talking about hitting lockdowns and

mandates and getting that covid, and how he might attack trump by allowing, you know, by having these federal lockdowns during covid. you can see desantis is feeling this out. but, you know, desantis may fall in the same trap that a lot of the trump endorsed republican primary candidates did in 2022, which is whatever he has to do to win the primary may kill him in the general. and, you know, desantis was great at owning the libs in florida, and having a strategy for that. he's very good at synthetic issues, stop woke act, which was a bill to deal with made up problems, something that does not exist. but that deny work anywhere outside the state of florida, a lot to calibrate for them. >> and that's the thing again.

and good lord, just keep talking about it for republicans, and i just wonder, when they're going to stop putting their hand on the hot stove. it burns, right? >> right. >> so you go out, you do these stupid things, you go too extreme. you jump up and down, playing to your base. you're in your little bubble. you get this feed back loop that makes you feel really good, like the romney campaign. >> you get fake confidence. >> and then you run a general election, and then voters in the northern and now southern suburbs of atlanta go yeah, no, those progressive democrats, they make me uncomfortable on some of their issues. but you're just crazy. and that's what happens in the suburbs of philly. that's what happens in the suburbs of pittsburgh. that's what happens in the suburbs of atlanta.

that's obviously what happens in maricopa county. that's what happens in tucson, that's what happens in clark county, nevada, and that is why republicans keep losing. i feel like i'm preaching to the choir and they're all asleep. because they just keep losing, mika. doing the same stupid things. >> you can do the list, but instead, why don't we talk to you about a little bit of governor desantis, and what we're seeing. yesterday, we reported on the announcement from governor desantis that he's forming a new sate committee to counter policy recommendations from federal health agencies, and he's requesting a statewide grand jury investigation into alleged quote crimes and wrong doing related to the coronavirus

vaccine. >> that will own the libs. >> it's also very stupid. >> and now it seems desantis is against something he was once for, look. >> today is the day we're going to hit our 2 million senior vaccinated and i couldn't think of a better fellow to be able to have that honor so i think we have the pfizer vaccine ready to go. >> i had also the privilege to be able to actually sign for the vaccines from fedex. >> it's a single dose you, take it one time. you don't have to worry about it. >> florida, to be at 50% statewide, that's much better than probably 45 or 46 other states. >> we're going to give them more because we want the shots to go in the arms. >> i'm confused. >> i got to say, jen will understand what i'm talking about here. maybe we can get him wind sailing and flip him back and forth and back and forth, and then we can say, ron desantis was for the vaccine before he was against the vaccine. this is so stupidly transparent,

especially after all peer reviewed studies show that millions of americans lives were saved by the vaccine, and ron desantis knows that. that's why he was pushing floridians to get the vaccines as quickly as possible, jonathan lemire, but now, i mean, this is a play against donald trump, ron desantis, for the vaccine before he was against the vaccine, and now he's going to use this, again, to try to own the libs and try to make gains with a part of the republican base that will take him over the cliff just like they took republican candidates over the cliff. wait for it. wait for it. wait for it. in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and

2022. >> the list goes on, and you're right, desantis's flip-flop would be a good fodder for a jon kerriesque ad. he won't say whether he got a booster. even trump admitted to doing that. he feels like this is a winning argument in his ongoing quest to own the libs. that's what this campaign has been about so far. gestures and using the levers of government to make political statements as we covered yesterday, some of those have been walked back since. he got the headlines he wanted on fox news and other places. he comes in at a position of strength. poll numbers look good. to be clear, desantis has not been nationally vet. he's right now a blank canvas. republicans can project their hopes and dreams and have trumpism without the baggage of donald trump. you would rather be ron desantis at this moment than donald trump. on trump, people around him are baffled at the utter inertia.

nothing has happened. he hasn't had a campaign. we ticked through the steps, the whiff of a loser, including the election failures in the midterm, but after his terrible announcement and misguided dinners with white supremacists and truth social posts where he says he wants to terminate the constitution. he hasn't gone to the states and said, these candidates let you down, i can fix it. he hasn't done anything. he has simply been at mar-a-lago rage posting and yelling at aides. we get the announcement today, joe, to wrap up here, you'll recall he expressed regret when he left walter reid medical center after recovering from covid that he didn't open his shirt to reveal the superman logo, that's what you're seeing in that graphic. he's finally getting a chance to do that. >> that's his regret. >> there's speculation it could be about his business, maybe he announces his return to twitter.

who knows, the odds are, though, it's not going to change much in the polls right now. >> just to put an exclamation point on the desantis conversation, remember in 2008, rudy giuliani was a lock for the nomination. he felt like, looked like the guy who should be the nominee and should be the president. it's very early, and desantis is only the alternative to donald trump right now. we'll see if more republicans smell the weakness on donald trump or the whiff of a loser, as lemire put it, and say maybe i should get in the race too. also on desantis where he did well during the pandemic was talking about excessive lockdowns and getting kids back into school and our businesses need to be open. people understood that and liked that, but now you're saying that people who made the vaccines in record time, the geniuses, scientists, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, the politicians who helped push it through, they're the villains, the people who saved all of these lives with the vaccine that you supported for a couple of years. they're the bad guys now? he's taken a step into a new place.

>> well, and it's really a stupid place because, again, there will be a small slice of the far right that will be all in with him. which will make up about 15%, 20% of the population, and you're going to have people who actually know how to read and read newspapers instead of those people who know how to read the 15%. but they read web sites run by chinese religious cults and by qanon fanatics and by people who don't care about the fact, but 3 million people's lives, according to the latest study, were saved by the vaccine, and you also look at the fact that it's very interesting, even at the height of all of this garbage that people are saying about the vaccines and it's horrible, and it's going to make you grow a third arm and a

fourth nose, and all of this crazy, crazy stuff. 90% of senior citizens. 90% of senior citizens took the vaccine. you know why? because talk is cheap and they understood, as ross perot would say, where the rubber met the road, and they knew in their gut, they got off of facebook. >> listened to their doctor. >> they listened to their doctor, and said, yeah, okay we're going to do this and save our lives. that's where americans are. they may not love the vaccine but most americans, unless they're really caught up in this qanon swirl, unless they're really caught up in the conspiracy theories, they know the vaccine saves lives. i'm not sure where ron desantis is going, but wherever it is, it ends in a cul-de-sac on a street in alpharetta, georgia, and it doesn't end well. still ahead on "morning

joe" -- >> that's a suburb in atlanta. it's time to make a major change to the state's election system. we'll explain why the move could get a lot of support from voters. also ahead, the markets are deep in the red following the federal reserve's latest interest rate decision. steve rattner is here to break down the latest hike and whether it signals we're headed for a recession. and it appears congress will keep the government from shutting down for now. we'll tell you where negotiations stand on a new spending bill. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. ♪limu emu & doug♪ it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. showtime. whoo! i'm on fire tonight. (limu squawks) yes! limu, you're a natural.

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shopping. >> as we go past the comcast commerce trade. you know what he says. papa, papa. let's go in and get uncle willie clogs for sunday today. >> he does like the clogs that willie wears. >> we go in there. he likes the willie geist approved "sunday today" clogs. >> are they comfortable, willie? >> very. they're fur lined. you're going to love them, mika. i didn't know we had clogs, but if we do, they sound great. the image of little jack at your knee, tugging at your sleeve, papa, papa, take me inside. >> he's 6'4". >> this is as good time as any if you want the sunday "today" mug. pop into the store, go online. >> the clogs match the mug. they're yellow as well. it's just a great look. >> slightly hideous. >> check that out and look for that on the nbc experience web

site. elon musk. >> speaking of clogs. >> at some point jack is going to walk in from school, all 6'4" of him, and he's going to push me into the wall and say, oh, man, stop using that voice on me. >> that's going to happen. elon musk says that he is taking legal action against a twitter user. >> come on, elon, make rocket ships to mars, please. stop this. stop this. >> on musk's private jet. >> you're owning yourself. stop. >> yesterday musk suspended the account where a 20-year-old, jack sweeney posted publicly available flight data. musk tweeted he will suspend any account doxxing realtime location because it's a physical safety violation. he went on to claim someone attacked a car that was carrying his child. last month musk said his commitment to free speech extended to not blocking the account.

meanwhile, the guy who runs the account told the daily beast he has not received any legal notices from musk or his reps. >> you look at that headline, and when matt drudge. >> what's he doing? >> is putting you at the top of the headline and calling you the world's richest hypocrite, willie, maybe at that point it's time to go back to making rocket ships. >> please. >> and turning your car company around. again, let me just say, i really -- twitter has been a nice experience. it's good. i've got a lot of friends there. but we could all do without twitter. >> yeah. big time. >> he's got bigger fish to fry than continuing to wallow around in that hurting his businesses, harming his reputation, harming his brand. >> it's a question we have been asking for months now. we have asked smart people. we have asked business people. we've asked people who know elon musk, why, why, why, what is he

doing with this thing he over paid for, why is he getting down in the sewers of twitter and fighting with people, and owning the libs and everything when he is, as you said, he is objectively a genius, right? he's driven the electric vehicle market, taken it to new places, sending us back to places like where we've never been. getting us to mars and all of the rest he's doing with spacex, so i still don't have a good answer to the question of what he's doing. steve rattner is here, we're not going to ask him again. we asked him yesterday. he threw up his hands, former treasury official, "morning joe" economic analyst. i assume you don't have a new answer since we asked you 24 hours about about what elon musk is doing with twitter. >> i don't. the weird thing about the latest episode, if you have an airplane, you can block the tail numbers so no one can find it in the faa database. i don't understand why he's doing this so publicly this way when there's another way to do it. >> presumably someone can tell

him that. maybe he's just enjoying the fight. let's talk about interest rates, rate hikes perhaps threatening a new recession. they went up again, what's the pattern you're seeing here with the fed? >> sure, they went up again by this time, a half percentage point, we've had four rate hikes at 3/4 of a percentage point. the fed is slowing down. getting closer to where it needs to be. you can see on the chart how high it's taken it, the highest since back in the 2000s, and what i would note here, and it's not a prediction, is that if you look at the first two rate hike runs on the left side, one is right before the dot com implosion, rate hikes of this magnitude and if i went back further, you would see a similar problem. rate hikes of this magnitude are often, if not usually, associated with a recession. 11 out of 14 times the fed has engaged in a rate hike episode like this has ended in a

recession. i'm not necessarily predicting it today. i think most economists think it's likely. >> was that about where you thought it was going to be? the half a point, steve? >> the half point was totally in line with the market. what was less in line with the market is some of what the fed said they expect to have happen. >> high rates for a longer period of time. >> and more of an economic impact. the inflation numbers we talked about yesterday were slightly better than expected. that was good news. we talked about that. they weren't, however, good enough for the fed to not raise rates and to issue a total set of projections, which we'll talk about in a second. on the right, you can see in the blue and dark colored dotted lines, they predict rate hikes, tell us what they think is going to happen, and this is what they thought was going to happen over the last several months, the bottom being june and september and now current, you can see each time they have made a set of projections, it has been higher rates for longer, and

they have gradually come to the realization that dealing with inflation is going to take a little bit longer. the red line is what the market, the bond market basically thinks is going to happen. it's somewhat more optimistic than the fed, both have been optimistic throughout this period of time. >> as you mentioned, steve, the fed expressed pez miss -- pessimism. >> we all liked that number, but it wasn't good enough, as i said, so the fed also issues a set of projections every three months from where they think the economy is going, and what this basically, again, takes your june, your september, december projections like blue, middle blue and dark color and lines them up. you can see on inflation, the fed has become consistently more pessimistic, 2.7% expected inflation, up to 3.5%.

it's taken the gdp growth estimate to .5%. not quite a recession. you can see on the right, it's taken expected unemployment number up higher to 4 1/2%. that's the basis for which those higher rates appear to be going longer. the fed has not predicted a recession. most economists have predicted one in there. even in the fed's view, we're going to be scraping along the bottom. >> jon meacham, we talked about ronald reagan earlier, and lincoln. it's interesting. you look at how this is lining up. we all remember the stories of morning in america in 84. i remember the ad, everybody thought, god, the economy has really turned around. things are going so wonderfully. you go back and look and unemployment was at 7.4%. wasn't doing that strong.

it was all relative, and sometimes, and i'm sure 41 told you this a great deal, whenever you had discussions with him. sometimes it's just all about timing and the economy turned around the fourth quarter of 1992, if it had turned around a quarter or two earlier, george h.w. bush would have been reelected and beaten bill clinton. it's all about timing. you look at these numbers, they seem to be lining up fairly well for joe biden, if he decides to run for reelection in '24. the inflation and the recessionary problems get washed out in '23, and by '24, looks like we're moving the way we were in 1984. >> i think that's right. steve has forgotten more about this than i know. but, yes, i think that the infrastructure pieces literally and figuratively, are in place.

and to connect these two parts of the conversation, you know, what president biden offers is sanity and stability, and even if you don't agree with him on 100% of policy, you know he's not going to suspend the constitution one afternoon because he is grumpy. and that's kind of a low bar, i guess, for an american president, but as you say, everything is relative. you know, it's been a remarkable couple of years. to me, the really interesting question, and you and i have talked about this before, is are too many people -- are there too many people who have a reflexively partisan disposition, no matter what the facts are, they can't vote for a democrat or a republican, is

there something that's so ingrained. what we saw, it seems to me, in the midterm was people saying that they were worried about some issue, perhaps it was dobbs, perhaps it was somebody else, plus this threat to democracy, and i don't know if the democracy issue was the single driver. anecdotically, i doubt it. i think it was part of a matrix of decision, and i think what the president offers here is a restoration of a conversation about where we should be and where we should go as a country. that's a conversation that may not be perfect, but is rational and durable. and what the 45th president represents is the end of that conversation and the replacement of it at first with political laser tag and that political laser tag then became physical

insurrection. and the choice is pretty clear here. >> pretty clear, and so clear that i suppose the one thing, jen, that we can thank donald trump for is the return of ticket splitters. i mean, let's go state by state. you look at georgia. georgia voters elected a republican governor, a democratic senator, a lot of people that voted for that republican governor voted for the democratic senator, you go to arizona, they said all of these statewide candidates are crazy and they went all democratic. when they were voting for members of congress, they found some people that weren't crazy. they voted for those members of congress. pennsylvania, a hell of a lot of people that voted for dr. oz also voted for governor shapiro there. you can go to wisconsin. in close races, a democratic

governor, a republican senator. ticket splitters in every single swing state. >> yeah, and i mean, first of all, i have to say i'm still processing the news that patty smith is going to be on the show that i'm going to be on. it's like, i'm overwhelmed. i texted with willie about it, and he noted that the show is so long, i'm in d.c., i could actually get on the shuttle and get to new york in time to meet patty smith at 30 rock. >> take a train. >> it's literally true. >> i mean, it's literally true. but, i mean, i think about the ticket splitters, it shows that, you know, voters are smart. they are capable of holding a few ideas in their heads at the same time, and they are very concerned about democracy, and the democratic candidates managed to make that a real issue, a real present issue for people, in their lives, and that was a question about whether or not democrats could do that.

you know, the last six years of trumpism made democrats great. we talk about how trump had picked bad candidates to endorse in the 2022 midterms, and the democrats had good ones, good candidates, but we don't really talk about how those things are related. we have been so freaked out by trump and the threat that trump and trumpism represents. we picked very good candidates, candidates worked really hard. democrats worked together on the ground to support each other. we put up an entire infrastructure around challenging the votes and how you protect the votes and how you challenge them, protect them in courts and all the way along the way to congress, if you need to. and so this -- and it wasn't just that we defeated candidates that were bad, democrats proved in 2022 that they can defeat trumpism. and it included a coalition of sometimes republican voters, moderate voters, i don't know

that that coalition can come together again in 2024. maybe it can, but the point is, for democrats, what happened was when the chips were down, right, they met the moment and they proved they could put the coalition together. they could make the right arguments, they understood what was happening in the country. they understood as meacham says the threat that was present, and were able to deliver, even ticket splitters. i found it to be one of the most positive things coming out of 2022. that and the fact that republicans who lost were actually willing to concede. all right. jon meacham, thank you so much for coming on this morning. his new book, of course. >> by the way, this book, it just may be his best. >> it's a good christmas present. >> it's an incredible christmas present. >> "and there was light abraham lincoln and the american struggle." >> that is what you want for christmas. >> i can count on 12 of

meacham's books, and paul mccartney books. >> i know what i'm going to get you. >> and mccartney has a new book coming out too. >> i'm going to get you "laminated charts" by steve rattner. >> i'm like a dork fruitcake, i can just be there in the house and anybody who comes by, you can hand them one, so we're in good shape. >> i can pass them to everybody. >> "whiff of a loser" "dork fruitcake" "laminated charts." >> we're going to get rattner's charts. i don't want them laminated. i want to send them off and wall paper the entire house. >> let's start with the bathroom. >> well, what did you think i was talking about? i was trying to be polite. steve rattner, two straight days of charts is going to cover half the wall. >> that's what my grandmother

would call gracious plenty. it's fantastic. still ahead on "morning joe," we saw a unanimous show of bipartisanship agreement in the senate yesterday. we're going to tell you what issue drew that extremely rare feat as we look at a beautiful shot. >> absolutely gorgeous. >> shot of new york city this morning. >> new york in december, so gorgeous. >> "morning joe" will be right back. >> wow. morning joe" will be rigt back. >> wow my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of

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stephen twitch boss known to millions as the long time dj on the ellen degeneres show has died by suicide at the age of 40. nbc news senior national correspondent kate snow has the reaction from loved ones and fans. >> reporter: he was a regular on the ellen show for years. >> over a decade ago, i met someone who changed my life. >> stephen twitch boss, twitch, was the dj, but more. ellen's favorite dancer and partner eventually executive producer. when the show was ending back in may, twitch reflected on his time there on "today." >> it was so emotional, and what was crazy, though, it was like, you know, it was a lot of the little things that started to really get me, not even the big moments. >> as recently as sunday, twitch was dancing with his wife allison holker in front of their christmas tree. they just posted celebrating

their 9th wedding anniversary. friends and fans stunned by the news he took his own life tuesday. he was the backbone of our family, the best husband and father and an inspiration to his fans. to say he left a legacy would be an understatement. his death adding to a devastating trend. suicide rates up nationally over the last two decades, the highest spike in recent years among black americans. >> one of the things that we will hear oftentimes in the black community is just this pride in not looking like what i'm going through. so folks don't know when they're struggling. >> in may, twitch was overcome talking about his time on the ellen show. >> a place where i can just be myself. >> when we say good-bye after the show, we both say love you, love you much, and i say love you, and so he's never going to be out of my life. >> ellen writing, i'm heartbroken, twitch was pure love and light. to many following along on

social media, the 40-year-old father of three seemed so full of joy. a reminder that pain can remain hidden. his wife writing, stephen, we love you. we miss you. and i will always save the last dance for you. >> nbc's kate snow with that report. coming up, exclusive new reporting on the missed opportunity by the federal government in 2020 responding to the covid crisis. plus, the second ranking senate democrat dick durbin will be our guest as lawmakers give themselves one more week to prevent a government shut down. also ahead, the american diplomat who brought brittney griner back to the united states is our guest this morning. we'll ask the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs about the prisoner swap with russia as well as what the administration is doing to bring home paul whelan. "morning joe" is back in a moment. l whelan "morning joe" is bacink a moment

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new "wall street journal" poll says that in a hypothetical gop primary match up, desantis beats the former president 52% to 38%. yay? also maybe boo. it's hard to know who to root for here. >> okay. welcome back to "morning joe." hour two, guys, it's thursday, december 15th. >> just a beautiful sunrise over new york city, by the way. it's 7:00 a.m. there as we look at the comcast building, of course mika's penthouse. >> if you're not up, time to get up. let's go, let's work out. jonathan lemire and jen palmieri are still with us. thought she was going to get a shuttle to come up to new york. >> that's next hour. she'll still have time. >> and joining the conversation, we have professor at princeton

university, eddie glaude jr., i congratulate you for getting a flu shot. thank you for being an example for many. we need everybody to get their flu shot, and we've got the host of "on brand" with donny deutsch podcast, donny deutsch doing a little brand up, brand down for us? >> i think we are later on. i think we are later on, donny. >> i like it. >> i have been talking for the past six years about -- it seems -- i don't know, have you ever -- have you ever worked with a company because obviously you were like the top ad guy, the top branding guy, have you ever worked with a company that just keeps losing and comes back to you and says, let's try that again? i mean, any company, like new coke, and then said, you know, that went so badly, let's try that again next year. >> let's try purple coke. >> and i say this seriously, like the republican party they

just keep losing. and you listen to people making arguments and they're still playing to the echo chamber. they still playing to the bubble. they're still playing -- and by the way, there are progressives that do that too. but when democrats run, guess what, they pick joe biden in primaries, they pick only moderate guy in primary because they want to win. they pick eric adams in primaries. even in new york city because they want to win. but the republicans, i'm just dumbfounded by the fact they keep losing, they keep making the same stupid arguments. we're talking about ron desantis. ron desantis is deciding to run against the vaccine. which i'm sure will really inspire about 7% of americans. like, why wouldn't he just talk about what he did in schools. why are they going back to the hot stove and placing their hand

on top of it. when will they ever learn? >> you know, it's hard to find a commercial analogy because the company would be bankrupt. you can't keep doing this. if new coke kept coming out, and there would be no more coke. i don't think we can look into the world of capitalism to find that because it doesn't exist. joe, you know, as far as why desantis does what he does, you know, you've called it, you know, politics of gesture, i'll call it politics of stunting. it seems, you know, owning the libs, he backs off in the end. as far as why the republicans continue to just kind of bow to the god of this extreme right, and, you know, because the leaders are worried about their next election run, and getting primaried and losing because that 15, 20% of the base votes, it's insanity, there is no rational explanation. >> it is. it is insanity. >> and jen, go ahead, i'm sorry.

>> it's insanity, you take ronna mcdaniel. i remember, like, republicans sometimes they would fire people who even had great midterms, even had great elections, it's time to move on. but with the republicans, they keep losing, and they've turned this rnc position, it's like it's a club. it's like it's a social club. they don't give a damn whether they win or lose. let's pick her again. yes, she lost in '17, yes, she lost in '18, yes she lost in '19, yes, she lost in '20, yes, she lost in '22, let's pick her again. people talking about washington being a club, being swampy. >> it's like a loser swamp. >> you lose for five years in a row, and the club keeps picking you because they don't care

about winning, they just want to keep their club together. >> yeah, i mean, i hadn't considered it in that way that it is like the swampiest thing, ironically, it is the swampiest thing ever, and mcdaniel, i mean, i'm not sure it's really her fault, right, that it is that -- i think trump is more to blame for what happened in 2022 than what the rnc chair was going to do, but in moments like this, when you do have big losses, the normal thing to happen, the healthy thing to happen is for new leadership to come forward and to try to put the party in a different direction, whether that's democrats or the republicans. and there were people who won in tough races for republicans during the 2022 midterms. you know, they won in wisconsin, that was a tough senate race. they won in ohio, that was a tough senate race. they won in north carolina, that was tough too. there's a lot of house members. there's house members from republicans from new york that won. any one of those leaders or

their consultants could be coming forward to say here's a new path, and we want to challenge ronna mcdaniel, and instead, what you have is a majority of the individuals that are members of the republican national committee making the decision, signing a letter, making the decision that they want to continue to back ronna because there's nothing underneath the sort of broken party that trump blew up. there's not anything else there, and the only person who is sort of emerged as somebody to possibly challenge ronna, though people tend to be sticking with her, a woman named dillon from california, her big issue, she came to the floor by being an anti-vaxxer, lock down, mandate person. even further down that rabbit hole, but this is, you know,

we're not seeing what parties do to make themselves healthy after -- as you have pointed out a few times, joe, six years of losing. >> six years of losing, willie, and this is the party of hailey barber. she used to have this position. like that guy was about three things. winning, winning, and winning. and you got out of the way really really fast. now they're just about losing. it's their brand. they're losers, they lose elections, and they do nothing about it. >> we played the clip in our last hour of former speaker john boehner weeping as he talked about speaker nancy pelosi. he was speaker of the house seven years ago, consider that where the party was seven years ago and where it is now. another poll this morning, from quinnipiac shows donald trump with 31% approval rating in the

country down to 70% among republicans. remember, he's lived up at 90, 95%. so clearly there's some slippage there. it doesn't mean he won't win the nomination. we have learned too many hard lessons about writing him off, but clearly republicans are looking for some alternative. for the moment, that's ron desantis. maybe it will be someone else down the road. >> alternative personality, but not necessarily alternative policy. ron desantis is playing that card in interesting ways. beyond the political horse race stuff, we need to be very clear that these positions, this policy, this stunting has resulted in people being dead. over a million americans are dead from covid. dr. hotez has a new book coming out saying that he can account for 200,000 people dying as a result of donald trump's policies, and florida, over 80,000 people dead from covitd, and look at this. beyond the politics, we need to think about the moral and ethical implications of this

political stunting. >> what's also incredible, in this moment in time coming off the losing streak, what are republicans focused on right now, hunter biden's laptop. that's their big play right now as they come off this losing streak. that's what the american public cares about, that's what's going to get us to the promised land. they forgot one thing. they forgot the voter. we have said many times, they're losing and, that's going to wake them up. it has not woken them up. they're in a sleeping beauty sleep, and hunter biden is not going to be the solution for them. republicans, now that they have the house has signalled that that's their priority. it's the border, dr. anthony fauci who we had on the show this week, retiring, yet they still want to haul him before congress and grill him about his missteps during the pandemic.

he, to his credit said of course he would appear, but more republicans are going nervous about this strategy. i'm being told. and it's coming against the back drop of kevin mccarthy fighting for his life to try to get the speakership. republicans have boxed themselves in. they have been talking for so long about hunter biden's laptop, about impeaching cabinet officials, about impeaching president biden, and their voters have heard this for so long from elected officials and also being repeated on fox news, conservative media sites, on social media, that's what the base wants even though the broader electorate doesn't. republicans are talking to a smaller and smaller percentage of the voter, which is going to hurt them in elections down the road, but they have created the situation where they're be holden to the republicans, the hard core republicans who do now want to see them have these investigations and potentially will hold accountable republicans who don't see them through. they have created this monster, and some republicans fear, and

now it's gotten away from them, and they're going to have to, joe and mika, go through with the recommendations even though it could be to their detriment. >> when i was a member of congress, i have people go, oh, he's talking about congress. would you rather i was talking about when i was a football coach. i can talk about coaching baseball if you want to. it doesn't apply here. if i was in congress, if i took a step that people in my district may not have liked, you know what i did, i held town hall meetings, and i said, this is why i'm doing this, and i went there, and i talked through it. let me explain to you. no, i didn't get booed. people appreciated me being there. held a lot of town hall meetings. it's amazing the difference they would make. i probably held a hundred my first year. i'd go in and say, i know you like newt gingrich, first

speaker in 40 years, brought the republicans to the promised land, i understand it. i'm working to get him out as speaker an here's why. maybe they didn't all agree with me, but they understood my thinking, that it was to further the conservative cause. what i don't understand, if i'm a member of the republican congress and i actually want them to win, we've got a $31 trillion debt. we have got to figure out how to curb spending over the next decade. we have to have a plan out there. small businesses, they're getting hammered right now. we need to pass tax cuts for small business owners. for entrepreneurs, for the family restaurants. for family hardware stores on main street. we need to focus on them. and, yes, we need to strengthen our national defense. boom, those thee things, and you

push crazy to the side. these people are acting like we haven't always had crazy. you know it. democrats have crazies. republicans have crazies, you know what you do, they ask a question at a town hall meeting, you go, thank you so much for being here. i greatly appreciate it. now, let me tell you about how we need to cut spending with a $31 trillion -- i mean, it's not that hard. these people are going, oh, what can we do, the base is crazy. well, you educate the base and make them a little less crazy in every town hall meeting, and you stay on your message that wins the suburbs, that wins the elections, that wins the presidency. i don't know why nobody in the republican party can do that. >> the republican base has believed more crazy views in the last few years because it's what republican politicians tell them. i've spent enough time -- they created this people.

people respond to leadership. they respond to what they hear, and i have spent enough time at trump rallies or, you know, within republican candidates, with republican voters out on the street, talking to people in, you know, northwest georgia, red parts of the country. people are smart, thoughtful, very concerned about the fact of the country, and they believe what republican leaders tell them. i talk to this guy in arizona who didn't think biden won the election. i don't know, maybe biden won, and if he did, he should be president, and i wish him well, but we just can't know. these are people who are believing what they are told, and if the republican politicians would come and do what you said, and said, hey, you know, the republican party needs to conduct oversight, and i know that a lot of people, a lot of attention has been paid to hunter biden's laptop, we also want to make sure the infrastructure bill is being implemented well and your money

is being spent well. we want to look at this inflation reduction act and see how that money is spent. and be a check on the democrats, and you know, those are legitimate issues that i think actually affect real people's lives, and you can push some of the crazy oversight stuff. i mean, i've seen this story many times before. i know how this ends. this ends when republicans go overboard on investigating and there's like nothing underneath, there's not any real problem. whether, you know, it was benghazi or whatever, what the republicans want to look at now, it ends with frustrated voters turning them out of office and reelecting democratic presidents. okay. that is what happened in '96. that is what happened in 2012 after the republicans took over the house in 2010. like, that is how this ends. so try something different. and have some faith in voters that they will respond to what

you tell them because they are doing that, and right now, what it's resulted in is them believing crazy things that are not true that have made the republican party hostage to trumpism. >> right. and the greatest example of this, mika, impeachment. you look what happened in '98. impeachment. democrats were supposed to get wiped out. it was just like this time. everybody was talking about the red wave. it never came. '98, just like 2022, the red wave never came, and republicans got brutalized for impeachment. and by the way, we continued and bill clinton left office with a 65% approval rating. again -- >> that should tell you everything you need to know. >> that's all you need to know. like when are they going to learn. it doesn't work. investigate, as jen said, investigate the waste, fraud, and abuse in some of these huge

programs. >> be conservative. >> investigate the waste, fraud and abuse in some of the covid relief bills. they keep working, oversight, to figure out what's happening with the southern border. those are issues that people do care about. crime, those are issues. they care about that. hunter biden's laptop, nobody gets it. >> you can do it if you want to. >> like you guys can all have a big, like a cheer. >> go for it. >> even if hunter biden ends up in prison, nobody is going, hey, i'm going to vote republican because they spent two years getting hunter biden to jail. it's about the issues at the end, and it's about who's serious about governing, and that's the end of the day. inflation, crime, $31 trillion debt. strengthen america's national defense. those are issues republicans would traditionally run on and win. the house subcommittee on the coronavirus crisis held its final hearing yesterday focusing

on how to ensure the nation is better prepared for potential future pandemics. the final report includes 30 recommendations, including further investment in vaccines and treatments to defend against new variants. there's also new focus from -- on the response to u.s. intelligence agencies. here's what then president trump said in january of 2020 about working with china to combat the spread. >> we think we have it very well under control. we have very little problem in this country at this moment. five. and those people are all recuperating successfully, but we're working very closely with china and other countries and we think it's going to have a very good ending for us, so that i can assure you. >> that was not a good ending. >> working very well with china. >> all of these people -- >> and he praised president xi

for cooperating with him. only five people, and now millions, how many deaths later. >> nearly 4,000 people in michigan alone would be dead from the virus in just four month's time. and you remember what he told bob woodward about, you know, basically not addressing this pandemic because he didn't want to scare people. okay. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian with new exclusive reporting on how the intel agencies handled the response to the covid outbreak. ken, what can you tell us? >> good morning, mika. this report i obtained is the product of the two-year deep dive by democrats on the house intelligence committee, and what they learned, first of all, they confirmed, as you just played there that donald trump was misleading the public about what he was being told about the seriousness of the covid pandemic early on because what

this report says is the intelligence community warned fairly early that this thing was going to be very serious, was getting out of control. as soon as december 31st, that was the first -- december 31st, 2019, right when it was emerging from china, that was the first intelligence report that mentioned a possible pandemic this new report finds, but there's a bit of a nuance here. then the report goes on to criticize the performance of the intelligence community because what it says is the spies didn't pivot and start spying on chinese officials and glean the kind of insights that would have really helped policy makers understand what the chinese were not saying in the early days of that pandemic, where they were saying there wasn't human-to-human transmission. who knows what donald trump would have done with this information. there were people in the white house and at the national security who were urgently trying to figure out what was happening in the early days, and the spies just could not produce information, and this report doesn't get into it because it's

classified, i can say from my own reporting that one of the issues is the national security agency is listening to the communications and monitoring e-mails of various chinese officials. you can't just turn on a dime, and start doing that with another group of people, for example, health officials. it takes months and years of preparation to lay the groundwork for that, and they just weren't structured to do it. and further the report goes on to say that the intelligence community, intelligence agencies are not really prepared for the next pandemic because there's a cultural issue. they don't see bio threats as a hard threat. even though it killed millions of americans, they don't see it as a top tier threat according to this report. and that's a cultural problem that the biden administration is trying to change, they say, but has not been able to completely change it, and so it's a worrisome conclusion here that the intelligence community is not ready for the next pandemic. >> nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent. >> thank you, ken. >> ken dilanian, thank you so

much. and there were people all around donald trump talking about how serious covid was going to be when he was saying there's nothing to see her. matt pottinger came to the white house because he had extensive contacts in china. he said this is going to be a serious problem. it may be your biggest national security threat. and matt pottinger was ridiculed for wearing a mask around the office while donald trump was saying nothing to see here. even that crazy guy on trade, that keeps getting arrested here. even navarro. maybe he's only been arrested once. i don't know, has he been arrested? i want to make sure i get that right. >> i don't know. let's pull that back. >> he does wave the arms a lot. go with that.

>> i waive my arms, and i don't want to get arrested. >> navarro does his interviews standing up so he can wave his arm. >> yeah, i guess he was. anyway, that's not really my point. my point is -- >> indicted. >> peter navarro wrote a memo early on, he said 500,000 people could die from covid. now, at the time, that was seen as radical. but now, of course, we know over a million people have died from covid. there were people all around donald trump warning donald trump. trump admits to woodward he knows it's going to be bad but he's going to lie to the american people because he doesn't want to mess up the economy. it's extraordinary. >> malpractice. >> mr. navarro hasouple of time believe arrested. we can go down that cul-de-sac a different time. listening to donald trump there, in january of 2020, late january, five people were going

to be fined. from that point, one million americans have died of covid. if you said that at the beginning of the pandemic, there was the first statement, dr. fauci and others were at the podium saying if we don't get our arms around this, it could be 200,000, 240,000 people. my gosh, a million people died, and donald trump was being told, deborah burks was there at the briefing. he was running a presidential campaign, and did not want to be blamed for this. thought it was going to be get in the way of his reelection. you can imagine, a guy who likes to fancy himself a leader, a general, a leader of men, if he had actually been a leader in that moment and said, here's what we got to do. take a couple of months or a month here. we got to get this thing under control, and we're going to be okay by the summer. he every in did that. he het it go, and it

metastasized into 1 million deaths in this concern. >> imagine if joe biden was in that position. >> joe biden actually wrote an op-ed along with ron klain. >> i think it was in january. >> warning about how bad things were going to get. they were pressing it. they warned this was going to get bad. it was all there, and it ended up that what joe biden and ron klain were saying was the same thing people all around donald trump were saying. he was just lying to everybody, which, again, just is, not only it seems criminal as bob woodward has said. it's also stupid. basic public relations. you get the facts out on the table as quickly as possible. we have a pandemic that is coming from china. we don't know how it's sorted. we do know this, though, i've got health experts telling me that anywhere from 500,000 to a million people could die from this pandemic. we don't know a lot about it,

but what we do know, we're going to tell you when we get it. we're going to use the full power of the federal government along with public, private partnerships, to do everything we can to get through this together. and it's going to be hard. you know, that's one thing that winston churchill always knew. everybody says how churchill was such a great leader, and talk about, never never never give up, the thing about churchill is if grow back and listen to the speeches, he always warns the british people of how bad things are going to be. the battle for france is over. the battle for britain has begun, and he talked about the sacrifice the british people were going to face. it prepared them. it helps them beat the nazis. donald trump just couldn't trust the goodness of the american

people. that he couldn't tell them the truth, and because of it, how many people died. >> so many. >> so many people died. it does seem criminal. but again, this is just a basic public relatives mistake. forget the immorality of it. we've talked about that time and time and time again. but this is just one more case of just stupidity. get it out there. tell them the truth, they can handle it. one of my ex-clients, was tylenol, people don't remember, that's how good a job they've done. and they came forward and said, look, we've sealed our packages and, they're safe now. look, donald trump, he's a sobering thought. donald trump would still be president if he handled this right. he was a wartime president, and he failed the war. had donald trump acted in a

competent, responsible way that leaders behave, he'd be president. i mean cost him his presidency, and several hundred thousand lives and he's got blood on his hands, and i agree with bob woodward. that was the defining moment for his presidency, and he failed in stunning colors. the only silver lining in this morose crowd is he would still be president, and thank god he's not still president. >> donny deutsch, thank you very much sobering thought it is. >> just the tragedy of it. all the families that lost their loved ones and were lied to. >> his decisions led to more than a million deaths. >> well, no, no, no. this pandemic was going to kill a lot of people no matter what happened. but you know what, you can mitigate damages. >> right. >> you can do your best to mitigate damages. >> and there were ways to do it. >> at the very least, tell

americans the truth. i always learned, trust voters. trust americans. give them the information. give them the truth. they'll do the right thing with it. >> okay. it's a debate we can have, but had people had information and used it, there would be less dead people. >> right. i agree with you there. >> but i disagree that when you say a million people died because of donald trump, no, they died because of covid. less people, though, would have died if he had done the right thing. >> i'll meet you in the middle at far less people would have died. the possible next speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy has suggested a republican controlled house next year could pull back on funding for ukraine. we'll talk to a former u.s. ambassador to the u.n. about that and the state of the war. and we'll be joined by a top official at the treasury department for more on the latest rate hike from the fed and what it means for the u.s. economy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe."

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(groan) (growling) (chuckle) ...you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. (beeping) learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. welcome back to "morning joe." look at that rainy scene on capitol hill. 34 past the hour. time to go to work, everybody. come on, get to it. or work out. nearly two months ago, reporters from punch bowl news asked house minority leader kevin mccarthy about further aid to ukraine from a republican controlled congress. mccarthy said quote, i think people are going to be sitting in a recession, and they're not going to write a blank check to ukraine. they just won't do it. it's not a free blank check, and then there's the things the biden administration is not

doing domestically. not doing the border. >> do we have to read, just unintelligible, seriously. >> ukraine is important but at the same time they can't be the only thing they do and it can't be a blank check. okay. kev, keep working on that speaker thing. joining us now, u.s. aid administrator, samantha power, good to see you, good to have you on the show. let's talk about where we are with aid to ukraine. there is a great deal being done, but this war has a pretty long runway. >> yeah, i mean, something major actually happened this week in europe beyond what is happening every day in ukraine and the bravery of the ukrainian people, which is europe has now just stepped up to agree it has to get formally across the finish line, but basically to agree on next year providing $19 billion in direct budget support to the

government of ukraine, so, you know, putin has thought that he could weaken the resolve of the ukrainian people, he thought thought that all along, he also thought he could divide the allies, we see not only moves on capitol hill to move forward with additional security and financial assistance but also in europe at scale. it's very important. >> ms. ambassador, let's talk a little bit about the status of play in ukraine. it's been debated about weapons systems, the agreement may come as soon as today. weigh the specifics on that, if you will, but more than that, what you're seeing in the situation on the ground. we know that russia has escalated their attacks on civilian targets, particularly trying to put ukraine into darkness as a very cold winter sets in. what sort of humanitarian crisis could we be looking at? >> it's pretty stark.

i mean, the stated objective of the russian federation is so-called deelectrification. they're very open about in a sense, embodying a war crime in a military objective, attacks on civilian infrastructure in an intentional way. i mean, that's war crimes 101. so what we are focused on at u.s. aid is how do we help the ukrainians repair that infrastructure when it goes down. they're unbelievably fast. they're unbelievably resilient. again, the drones keep coming, the missiles keep coming and that's why the supplemental request actually pending before congress that i hope will get done before congress breaks is really important because it's additional assistance to help us at u.s. aid buy generators, to buy and miles of pipes to facilitate the repairs. the ukrainians will do the work. it's just a question of giving them the support day need. with regard to the patriots, that's not my lane, certainly,

and it's not something that we have an announcement on at this time. >> ambassador power, this is eddie glaude, i wanted to ask you about the u.s./africa leaders summit. why now? what is significant? what will be some of the deliverables? we know the belt road initiative, china has had a really serious impact in africa as well as in the caribbean, why this particular summit at this moment, and what should we expect from it? >> well, first of all, africa has so much potential to unlock. the youngest continent in the world, fastest digitizing continent, vast natural resources, and also right now, of course, there are a lot of needs exacerbated by putin's invasion of ukraine. food insecurity, food prices, fuel prices skyrocketing. so this summit, we hear mainly about the former, mainly about the opportunities. there was a big deal room yesterday with private sector leaders engaging with heads of

state. cooking up deals, you know, on the digital, on drawing investment and other capital to africa. i mean, the growth rates before the pandemic were off the charts. these are real opportunities in emerging markets for u.s. companies so there's that dimension of it. and u.s. aid tries to facilitate that, facilitate electrification in places where there hasn't been access to renewable energy and so forth. at the same time, somalia, for example, is facing famine in parts of the country. trying also to use the summit to issue a call to the world to provide humanitarian support to help them get through this very difficult time, at the same time those larger investments are made to unlock the potential longer term. >> administrator power, what does the united states need to do when congress reconvenes, when the president and congressional leaders are meeting, what is the greatest need for the people of ukraine right now? what can we do?

how can we make a difference in their daily lives? >> i think we have the template, continuing support, every phase of this military battle on the ground is different, so the context that general austin, secretary austin, and, you know, our military advisers, the intelligence relationship, all of that is incredibly important for one battle front. which is the obvious one, the military battle front, but at the same time, there's another battle front, which is ukraine is still getting on with the business of strengthening its democracy, and that's where the other forms of assistance come in. for example, what u.s. aid does. we're helping them vet judges, build anticorruption institutions, that's important for the assistance going in. we want to make sure it's well spent. we're supporting an independent media, they're looking into not only what the russians are doing in terms of war crimes, but holding the ukrainian government

and authorities to account. we have seen that so much of the strength of this war effort comes from the self-organization that goes on community by community, you know, to shelter people who have been displaced, to help farmers who have lost their machinery get access to loans so they can replace that machinery to get back to plowing their fields and harvesting their grains. there are two fronts, when you ask about congress, the packages have been comprehensive. people focus on which weapons system, this day or that day but all of the support to help the ukrainians pay first responders, keep the lights on, repair those pipes when they go down, have heating facilities to, again, enhance that resilience over winter. all of this goes together as a package. >> u.s. aid administrator, samantha power, thank you for coming on the show this morning. we really appreciate it. and now we turn to the state of the u.s. economy here in the

u.s. the federal reserve yesterday raised interest rates by another 1/2 point. in its ongoing fight to curb inflation. joining us now, deputy secretary of the treasury, wally audiarmo, the latest rate hike causes a reaction. there's a lot of talk about this being more of a soft landing, what are officials in the u.s. government feeling about the strength of the u.s. economy moving forward? >> well, thanks for having me. it's good to be back on the show, and we feel good about the strength of the u.s. economy. we have created more jobs in the first few years of president biden's administration than at any time in the last 50 years. we see a great deal of momentum in the economy, in terms of consumer demand is still strong. i have had a chance to sit down with ceos who tell me from their perspective, they are still getting orders from consumers,

from other businesses, they feel good about their order books and sitting down with leaders from africa and over the world in the last few weeks, they are amazed by the strength of the american economy which isn't something that happened without the hard work and determination of the american people and the policy choices we have made to get out of the covid epidemic. and we also need to think about what the ukrainian people are doing for all of us in terms of not only defending the values we all stand for, but the reason that energy prices have been so high, and the reason the food costs are so high is partly because of russia's invasion of ukraine, and their weaponization of both of those things, so ending that war as quickly as possible, making sure that vision ends is not only good for our values, but also good for our economy. >> hey, wally, good morning, jonathan lemire, i showed the stock futures board, lots of red there. you mentioned something i wanted to follow up on, gas prices have been falling, you have been

quick to point that out. food prices less so. a real strain on consumers when they go to the grocery store, day in and day out, what more can be done about that particularly as we head into the holidays? >> one of the most important things is making sure we end russia's invasion of ukraine as quickly as possible. it's important to remember that ukraine is one of the largest producers of wheat in the world, and many of these markets are global. what that means is if people can't get their wheat from ukraine and europe and africa, they're buying it from somewhere else and increasing costs in countries like the united states. so that's why we're focused on making sure we give the ukrainians the resources they need to make sure they can end the war as quickly as possible. in addition to doing that, it comes down to making sure we take the steps to increase the supply of the things that are needed to produce agriculture in our country and focused on making sure we do that. one of the key inputs to everything is gasoline. it takes gas and diesel to move the food that is produced and those costs are embedded in

food. a big part of the goal is to bring down the costs of fuel, and as you pointed out, we have seen fuel costs increase by 1.50 since their peak this summer, and we are going to take every step we can to reduce supply constraints in the economy. a year ago i was in long beach, california, visiting the then mayor, and congressman and i looked at the port and you could see a hundred ships that were unlabel to load, which leads to higher costs. today, that is diminished to almost zero because the work we have done to decrease supply chains. we're going to keep doing that. >> deputy secretary of the treasury, wally adevemo, thank you very much for coming back on the show this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," the american diplomat who helped bring brittney griner home is our guest, plus, senator dick durbin is joining us at the top of the hour. we'll talk to him about the negotiations to fund the government next year. and the other headlines from capitol hill. and also the latest harry and meghan netflix documentary

is out. >> it's causing some problems. >> millions and millions of people watched the first installments, but here, harry blames the media for his wife's miscarriage, says the guardian, and talking about william screaming at him. the bbc reporting that she was -- that he was scared when harry was screaming at him. >> we'll have a full report on this. >> princess diana felt the same way about royal life as meghan markle, it looks like, again, the continued efforts to compare meghan markle to princess diana. we'll have that story and much more. should we ask dick durbin about harry and meghan. >> no, but we will just cover it. >> okay. >> okay. we'll be right back. okay. >> okay. we'll be right back. when you're through with powering through, it's time for theraflu hot liquid medicine. powerful relief so you can restore and recover.

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a new revelation from the netflix series "harry and meghan." he blames "the mail on sunday" for his wife's miscarriage two years ago. although he says the couple doesn't know for sure that caused it. >> sounds like he does. >> markle sued the tabloid in july of 2020 for breach of prif privacy and copyright. the prince saying in the lawsuit she suffered from stress and lack of sleep because of what the tabloid was doing. markle won the lawsuit last december. here's nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons with the latest. >> reporter: three more episodes with the wedding and then increasingly negative headlines,

palace tensions and the duke describing in the strongest ever terms the breakdown with his brother saying there's a furious row at a family summit. >> it was terrifying to have my brother screaming and shouting at me and my grandfather quietly sit there and sort of take it all in. >> reporter: prince harry said he was blocked from seeing the queen alone. >> saddest part is this wedge between myself and my brother so he is on the institution side. >> reporter: and accuses the press officials of briefing the media against him and his wife. >> i couldn't believe happy to lie to protect my brother. and yet for three years they were never willing to tell the truth to protect us. >> reporter: we watched with broadcaster and author. >> this i think really busts

open in a dramatic way the relations between the two brothers. >> this is a good old-fashioned fallout between two brothers and the wives are dragged into it. >> reporter: critical press coverage the couple say led the duchess to question her life. >> this will stop if i'm not here. >> reporter: they talk about that period. >> i remember her telling me that, that she wanted to take her own life. that's not an easy one for a mom to hear. and -- >> i didn't deal with it particularly well. i dealt with it as institutional harry opposed to husband harry. looking back on it now i hate myself for it. >> reporter: but it is harry and william's clearly broken

relationship that will leave questions. we see him receiving a text from prince william. >> wow. just going to text his brother. >> reporter: we are not told what it said. >> wow. that drama, though -- i mean, obviously a lot of people in the uk are furious that they -- although it raises the question about the monarchy and the debate about it. but there's some major allegations coming out of this and sort of allusions to racism along the way. >> yeah. well, the majority of the reaction in britain is overwhelmingly negative and hostile toward this documentary. overwhelmingly hostile and negative to most of the reports. that said if they wanted to

create a netflix special to get people watching they have succeeded in that. i think the numbers for streaming were record breaking. so they have got that going for them. it is a lot of people in the uk wondering why it's necessary to bring family fights out into the open here. and why a guy who served in afghanistan proudly and bravely was terrified by a fight he had with his brother. >> yeah. i'm by no means a royal expert. i haven't seen the series and don't want to pass judgment on it but speaking publicly in this way about my own brother -- i don't have a brother but not something i would do but they had signed a huge deal with netflix and had to give them something to deliver.

harry seems like a good guy. served his country a couple of times. i don't know what he is up to here but a provocative documentary and airing the family's laundry publicly. >> we haven't known meghan markle for that long. we have in a sense grown up with prince harry and always been a favorite and always seemed to be a really good guy and served his country proudly. again, though, a lot of people in britain asking the same thing you are asking. why in the world would you dish on your family members and say such provocative things. >> one might have been because of what happened to his mother and the trauma endured because of the paparazzi and the media. i think there's a good conversation to be had. i will keep an open mind about

it and watch how this unfolds but i think they are raising some really good questions but you can also question their intentions. >> again, in britain people wondering why they had to take the family fights public. >> okay. >> but again, got a huge audience. it is going to get a huge audience again because again it's very provocative stuff. you talk about the father and brother, the king of england and the next king of england and all them liars and say they're screaming at you and throw that out there people will watch. again, what's the reaction to this? i fear for them because i'm cheering for them but might be tougher in britain even now. keir simmons will join us live

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this is a really well organized back line. patience is important for france. >> a slip! into the middle! mbappe might have another chance. hernandez scores! >> the world cup finals now set. france eliminated. incredible morocco team yesterday. now ice an opportunity to be the first team to retain the title since brazil in 1962. france will meet argentina and i

think one of the most exciting world cup finals going into the match. that's sunday at 10:00 a.m. jonathan lemire, my god, that morocco team, what an incredible story. for a large chunk of the game they controlled the pitch. a really great french team. they were so organized, so disciplined. the first flynn country, first muslim country to be in the semifinals. it was a cinderella story. i was thinking there are kids there that will be telling the grandchildren in morocco about that match. so historic. >> yeah. the u.s.-african leader summit in washington. people glued to the phones watching the morocco game yesterday and credit to them. they played really well. in that game. they were toe to toe with

france. france got the early goal and then held it. mbappe, the run led to the second goal to make it 2-0. and then a dream final. two countries with storied soccer traditions. france and argentina and the young guard mbappe with a world cup title and then lionel messi but may the greatest player. one thing missing on the resume. he had a spectacular world cup. his assist the other day some of the prettiest i have seen. it's going to be such a fun sunday. >> it is. this is the matchup most people wanted at the beginning of the tournament. messi so great in the semifinal. it might be his last world cup match on sunday. a chance to see the guy that

many believe to be the greatest of all. to go back to the point about morocco, so much talk about an underdog team and the first team from africa to appear in a world cup semifinal and belonged on the field with france. 1-0 until near the end of the game. toe to toe with maybe the best team in the world. they looked great and hopefully the future is bright for moroccan soccer. >> let's hope so. eddie, it was a great game. france scored two goals on deflections. they kicked the ball around. deflections went in that's extraordinary moves. and then a quick cleanup act by france. both goals. i was so moved by morocco

throughout this entire tournament. just how extraordinarily well they played yesterday against a great french team who could walk away with the cup on sunday. >> i'm not a big soccer guy but i had to root for morocco. it went viral a player dancing with his mom after the victory and to hold the way they did and play the way they did. france and morocco. the colonial relationship between the two countrys. it was just high drama. my wife who is jamaican is so excited. i have to watch it now so i'm excited about it. >> you got no choice. given the fraught history between the two countries did you notice how respectful the

players were to each other? >> absolutely. >> they'll swat them away. the sportsmanship on the field yesterday was so moving. i was thinking about that fraught history. and despite the fact it's almost like the players understood that was the backdrop. they understood that they wanted to show the world the best sportsmanship they could possibly show. the scenes afterwards beautiful. french player that is won the last world cup and moroccan players embracing each other. >> many of the players probably play on teams in the respective leagues and know each other. as i was watching i was thinking about this book on cricket and became for him the way to talk about the colonial empire

britain and the like. sports focus attention on the heroic and the agony of defeat but there's an element of geopolitics behind it and watching it and the players battle. feel the way they felt in losing. and it was something about it that made me smile. >> very nice. let's get to the top story this hour. the senate unanimously passed a bill to ban tiktok on all government devices amid fear that is the app owned by a chinese company collects data from users that beijing could use for spying purposes. according to the lawmakers it protects americans to block all transmissions from social media companies under the influs of

china, russia and countries of concern. last month janet yellen said the app presents legitimate national security concerns to the united states and several states prohibit tiktok on government devices. it has denied turning over data to chinese officials but acknowledged that chinese employees have some access to it. the bill still needs approval from the house and president biden's signature to become law. >> let's bring in the democratic majority whip senator durbin of illinois, chairman of the judiciary committee. tiktok now obviously one of the most popular social media sites in america and across the world. talk about your concerns about it. should we tell our children and everybody we know to take it off the devices? >> i would.

maybe we realize that the innermost secrets, privacy security at stake. not just a matter of a commercial operation with information to make a buck but a question of whether china is going to be able to do the same thing in ours. >> that is a piece of advice. willie? >> that's something echoed by chris krebs. let me ask you about the government shutdown. wednesday a short-term funding bill was passed. is the government going to be open a week from now, two weeks from now? >> i'm hoping so. we are on a path to do that. there's an element that's still unresolved but not at the highest level. we are agreed on the big numbers and tracking them in to the individual appropriation bills and leaving today and we have to

leave because the bill takes sometime to put together and i'm hoping early next week to pass a bipartisan basis the budget for the fiscal year. but warning, rough seas ahead. the incoming leadership in the house suggested that it's going to be an era of confrontation and government shutdown. that's not good for the country, the economy or the people. i hope they reconsider that as time passes. >> senator durbin, good morning. i was hoping an update on two things that would be in this bill. one, funding to ukraine. secondly, the electoral count act to reform the process that the trump administration tried to take advantage of. where do things stand? >> nothing is final until it is final. i've been around enough budget processes to see predictions falter. i think both elements are included in the bill and should

be. we need to stand by the ukrainians. some dissenters among the house republicans don't reflect what many republicans in the senate feel and i think we have enough force of presence in terms of the ukrainian war to fund that. so there's a positive feeling moving forward. i'm told the electoral count act is included. >> this is eddie. shifting the subject for a quick second. dana douglas was confirmed, judge douglas, to be appointed to the 5th circuit. talk about the work of you and the committee to confirm judges. >> i'm proud of the senate judiciary committee. we have seen 97 federal judges approved. we have another 29 on the calendar and i have 7 or 8 in committee ready to be reported. in a 50-50 senate a committee

divided 11-11 and the bottom line is diversity. not just in race and gender but in backgrounds. we are putting women and men on the bench and started with women focusing on them serving who come to it with different backgrounds. i'm not against the white male prosecutors. they did a wonderful job for america but it is time to have other voices in the chambers. >> the numbers of the first two or three years of the trump administration looking at federal prosecutors, if you looked at judges, donald trump's election overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male. and in a disproportionate way. i'm with you. this is not about quotas but it was about quotas with donald trump. it was shocking how many of his

selections were white males. >> and let me remind you he made no bones about it. his selection list for judges to the top supreme court appointments was cleared by the federalist society headed by leonard leo to get the dobbs decision approved the supreme court. there's a backlash across america. joe, the bottom line is how many times have you heard about democrats with a garbled message. don't give us an essay. here's the message. we are the party of inclusion and diversity. we believe we should honor the american population making sure the government reflects the diversity. the appointments are changing the federal courts in america. i want to continue along that path the next two years. >> can you just talk for a

second? i do think it's remarkable that republicans, a large number of republicans have made it a singular focus through the years to overturn roe v. wade. in one poll after another you can go back decades only like a third of americans ever wanted it overturned and up into the 70s did not want it overturned. isn't it ironic the thing they have been chasing for as long as they have separated them from most americans, from main street america, from people who used to be the most ri liable voters? >> yes. many believe that america was coming their way on the pro-life side and i have to say that is not the case and there's a backlash against that school of

thought coming down to it. it was really felt in the last election. you have to ask yourself what is at stake here? republicans believe they want to favor a morally elite group in the country with a point of view generated by religious belief to the exclusion of the majority. it's a difficult question why when does life begin in they think that decision needs to be made by the woman, the doctor, the family and the conscious. and i think that is the dominant feeling across america and dobbs brought it to the fore. we have to deal with it in so many different ways. i was with the group with the president signing the indication of marriage. a few republicans stood up with us but largely a democratic

driven issue. tammy baldwin and kirsten sinema played a critical role to play that point but it's a different view of america. we reflect what america is all about. >> senator dick durbin, thank you once again for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> good to be with you. >> thank you. one week after the release from a russian penal colony brittney griner is readjusting to life in america. in an interview yesterday her agent said the cliptd is doing really well and is already back on the court. her first move a dunk. joining us now one of the u.s. officials who helped bring brittney griner home. special presidential envoy at the state department roger carstonson. thank you for being on the show.

let's start with paul whelan. you spoke with him on the phone last week. the white house making clear there's a huge effort to bring him home. what more can you tell us? >> thank you for having me on the show this morning. as you said i talked to paul whelan last friday. i landed in san antonio, texas, 4:30 in the morning and 9:30 paul called. we spoke for about 30 minutes. expressed the frustration as you might imagine and i said we were in the military and told us if we're captured keep the faith. i said, paul, keep the faith. the president's focused on the return and the secretary of state. i certainly am focused. we're working hard and coming to get you. this past monday we hosted a fight meeting and we invited elizabeth whelan to participate

and give us insights and thoughts on how to progress and that's important to us. what i tell families taking a case is this is not government as usual. we'll partner with you. we'll cry with you. if you need to call someone at 10:00 on friday night with an idea you had or need to call someone to cry call my team. we'll be there with you every step of the way. i think the monday meeting is good thoughts. we have a few of our own naturally and progressing to take alternatives to the bargaining table. >> good morning. there's been some talk about a russian assassin in prison in germany. i know you won't talk about an ongoing negotiation on national television but are you confident that you have bargaining chips left? >> i'm so grateful you saved me

from saying i can't say it so respect. we have arrows in the quiver. things we have talked to the russians about to adapt and great ideas. this is ongoing. i have been working on the whelan case over two years now and not something to lay down. we're going to bring him back. >> what can you tell us about the treatment now that you have spoken to brittney griner and debriefed her about the treatment received over the ten months, especially in the last month in the penal colony? >> we know i talk to paul once every two weeks or so. talking to brittney griner i want her to tell the story in her own words but you're in a russian prison. not going to be a good affair. finally getting out to the ik area it is tough. you expect the things to just imagine taking place.

but i want her to tell that story if i may but what i would like to say she is getting good treatment now. she is right now in army south with good care of the department of defense. we have great colleagues down there in post isolation support activities. they are working with her to essentially reintegrate her into life. >> good morning. jonathan lemire. paul whelan's plight has the headlines but there's a case of marc fogel. he's a pennsylvania teacher arrested and spent time in russia on marijuana charges. can you talk about his case and plight and what efforts are being made to get him home? >> i appreciate the question. the state department requested a

humanitarian release for marc fogel. we take it seriously. it is not passive. it is an active process. we reviewed the cases of every single american held in prisons overseas to look for indicators of wrongfulness. we don't shy away from taking a case. if i get ten more i hire another person or two to deal with it. we are looking into the cases. >> roger, if you could just explain because you have talked to paul. you talked to brittney griner obviously. and others. i understand you can't talk about the exact nature of your conversations but can you tell us how important it is that those in prison know that they

have a white house that's fighting to get them home, to get them back to america? the whelan family very upset with the last administration because they never said paul's name. never made the effort. talk about the difference and what you hear from those that are in prison that they know that america and the american president is fighting to bring them back home to america. >> i will tell you a story. going to venezuela i had a chance to see the sitgo six and the prison and i walked into the prison system why they took me to a room. i walked in. the executives in the room and i started to introduce myself. i said i'm roger. they said we know who you are and a gentleman here in washington couldn't believe it and got up and he came toward me and the hands shaking and put the hands around my face and

said i wanted to make sure that this is real. i usually cry when i tell that story so i'm making progress in the therapy. >> it is a lot, yeah. >> it is important to them. it toos first time in four years. it means the world to hand them a picture from the family. with matthew heath took him a copy of -- here's a gift. some books your parents wanted and the secretary and secretary of state knows who you are and working hard to bring you home and here we are and we have brought back nine people from venezuela but keeping the morale up is letting them know that the u.s. is not forgetting them and working to bring them home. >> boy does he have stories. >> yeah. >> thank you. thank you so much for being with

us and thank you -- >> for your service. >> to those imprisoned across the globe. "the times" leads with the deadly tornadoes in louisiana. at least three died. more than a dozen injured after at least six tornados touched down yesterday. they were part of a severe weather outbreak in the eastern part of the country. the threat of severe weather this morning in mississippi, alabama and parts of florida. "the atlantic journal constitution" covers the rise of respiratory illnesses in georgia. the surge in patients has been driven by children who are extremely ill with viral infections and an uptick in traumatic injuries. "the saint lucy news tribune" leads with the struggling citrus

harvest. harvesting 20 million boxes of oranges this season, a 30% drop from the prediction. and "the buffalo news" reports nfl owners approved buffalo's 30-year lease for the $1.4 billion stadium. it is scheduled to be bit across the street from the current facility in time for the 2026 season. the bills are finalizing other parts of the agreement with state and county governments committed to spending $850 million on the project. and still head on "morning joe," last year ron desantis praising covid vaccines. >> he did. bragging about it. >> now he is trying to appeal to

anti-vaxxers. we'll explain what's happening down in florida. appears donald trump is feeling pressure. poll numbers show he is losing ground to ron desantis with republican voters. what the former president has planned for today. chuck schumer makes a bold prediction for 2024. plus, rock n roll hall of famer patty smith is our guest in the fourth hour of "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ this... is a glimpse into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪

the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪

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another poll this morning shows former president trump who in recent weeks dined with a holocaust denier and anti-semite

and expressed the desire to cancel the constitution because he lost the 2020 election is now being rejected by some of the same republican base that had stood by him. over the past six years. the new poll from "the wall street journal" shows florida governor desantis cementing an early lead over donald trump in the race for the next republican presidential nominee. desantis leading trump by double digits. 14 points. has not announced. he may not rub for president. also beats trump in terms of likability. 86% of republicans hold a favorable view of the governor compared to 74% for the trump. trump leads desantis among republican voters that describe themselves as very conservative. leading among those who describes themselves as somewhat conservative desantis. this is on the heels of a "usa

today"/suffolk poll showing donald trump trailing. >> ronald reagan said democracy has to be fought for every generation. every generation to be vigilant. that said i do wonder whether if the past six years have been perhaps the greatest threat to american democracy where you have a president openly talking about the attorney general arresting his presidentia leade- trying to stop the peaceful transition of power. i'm wondering if the polls suggest that maybe, just maybe, that the doomsday clock ticked back from five to 12:00 to maybe

11:45. >> i hope so and i think that there's something both thrilling and terrifying about that proposition. it's thrilling because it means that american democracy may survive and thrive and that's what a lot of us have been arguing for and pounding on the highchairs about for a long time now. it's unsettling because -- i was thinking about this last night. i was not watching what you were watching but it occurred to me because the worst did not happen it's going to be incumbent on thoughtful, engaged citizens to bear in mind how close we have come to the abyss because it's going to be easy for those who were in the enabling caucus to

say, oh, you all were, you know, exaggerating, chicken little. but just because something horrible did not fully come to fruition does not mean that something horrible did not very nearly come to fruition. >> still could. >> how fascinating that the people who said we were always hyper ventilating, overplaying the trump threat are the same people who were deadly silent when donald trump called about terminating the united states constitution. so everything we warned about, whether it was his racism, anti-semitism, the bigotry has all been confirmed over the past several weeks. i do wonder because the lincoln book is extraordinary and i

don't favorite children or jon meacham presidential biographies but if i did this one would be right there. i'm wondering what do you learn about this moment over the past six years from the year or two that you spent with abraham lincoln. what has he taught you not only about the past five years but the years to come and how vigilant we need to be? >> that democracy is entirely a human enterprise and as fragile and fallible as we are. the substance of the laws is vital. we have to have that but there's also the spirit of it. lincoln said i would not be a slave so i would not be a master. if we don't recognize each other

as equal and dignified then the enterprise collapses. if power is the most important thing as opposed to any kind of principle. i'm not playing the organ or the kettle drums. this is straightforward. you have to believe something other than i should be in power. that's what -- >> yeah. >> the 45th president believes. if you have that moral commitment then you are more likely to do the right thing in extremist and hours of crisis. we are in the season that i think shaped us ever since which is that there was a compromise on the table in 1860, '61 to extend slavery to the southern parts of the western territories and avoid war. the kind of compromise we used to strike. and lincoln said, no.

everybody around him saying yes. and his reason was we have said that it is wrong and cannot be extended. the white south believes slavery is right and hang it is question of union. he was like winston churchill. he knew that appeasement had not worked. that is a lesson for us now and tricky. people don't like being told they were wrong. but people have -- we owe a duty to the truth, a duty to the facts of the matter to remember how close we have come. i think that as you say it is not over. >> not over. >> but it is -- look. this is a better december than in six year. we'll go live to capitol hill. the developments straight ahead

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welcome back. in a bid for attention former president trump is teasing a quote major announcement that he's expected to reveal today. on his social media website he teased a video and wrote america needs a superhero. take a look. >> america needs a superhero. ♪♪ >> we are in third grade. we are in third grade. [ laughter ] >> that's what it was? oh my god. >> willie, you better take it.

i'm about to -- i'm about to start laughing uncontrollably. >> heart breaking in a way. for him. there's going to be a major announcement. this clearly if you look at the data and the polls from the last couple of days there have to be meetings going on in tallahassee where desantis and the team are saying we are up by 20 points on this guy. maybe we don't miss the moment and jump in the race. that will take nerve but they have to be having those conversations about this point. >> yeah. figuring out what is the right time. trump is flailing and doing nothing to help himself. other times he's found an ability to sort of recalibrate. i imagine him having gone maybe after walker lost in georgia go to the states where people lost and point out the things that

they did wrong, the people he endorsed. failed him. only i can fix this. right? that's a big thing with him. he could have torn down the candidates and by doing so sort of get at the pseudo trump that desantis is. he called him ron de sank moan you. pretty good, right? he is not showing that game. in tallahassee desantis did push out a couple nights ago talking about hitting lockdowns and mandates and getting the covid and might attack trump by allowing and having these federal lockdowns during covid and see desantis feeling this out. but you know, desantis may fall in the same trap that the trump

endorsed republican primary candidates did in 2022 which is whatever he has to do to win the primary may kill him in the general. and desantis is great at owning the libs in florida and having the strategy for that. very good at synthetic issues and stop woke act. something that does not exist. but that didn't work in '22 anywhere outside the state of florida. still ahead, we'll check in with the cnbc. what the rate hike means for the economy in the new year. "morning joe" is back in a moment. >> this year 75% of people plan to buy gifts from small businesses. which explains this ad i saw. >> support a local mom and pop shop. amazon. we know what you're thinking. how does that family business

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ugh! but, we found other interests. i guess we have. [both] finch! let's go! oh yeah! it's not the same. what could you do to solve the problem? we could get xfinity? that's actually super adult of you to suggest. i can't wait to squad up. i love it when you talk nerdy to me. guy, guys, guys, we're still in session. and i don't know what the heck you're talking about. yesterday we reported on the announcement from governor desantis that he is forming a new state committee to counter policy recommendations from federal from federal health agencies. he's requesting a statewide grand jury investigation into alleged, quote, crimes and wrongdoing related to the coronavirus vaccine. >> that will own the webs. also very stupid. >> desantis is against something he was once for. look. >> today is the day we're going to hit our 2 million senior

vaccinated, and i couldn't think of a better fella to be able to have that honor. i think we have the pfizer vaccine ready to go. >> yeah. >> i had also the privilege of signing for the vaccines from fedex. it's a single dose, you take it one time, you don't have to worry about it. florida to be at almost 50% statewide, that's much better than almost probably 45 or 46 other states. and we're going to give them more because we want the shots to go in the arms. >> i have to say, maybe we can get him wind sailing and flick him back and forth and back and forth, and then we can say ron desantis was for the vaccine before he was against the vaccine. this is so stupidly transparent, especially after peer reviewed

studies show that millions of americans' lives were saved by the vaccine and ron desantis knows that. that's why he was pushing floridians to get the vaccine as quickly as possible, jonathan lemire, but now, i'm, this is a play against donald trump, ron desantis for the vaccine before he was against the vaccine. and now he's going to use this again to try to own the libs and try to make gains with the part of the republican base that will take him over the cliff just like they took republican candidates over the cliff -- wait for it, wait for it, wait for it -- in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2022. >> the list goes on. and you're right, desantis' flip-flop certainly would be good fodder for a john kerry ad.

desantis has tried to stake a position to the right of trump on the pandemic. he won't even say whether he got a booster. he feels like this is a winning argument in his ongo ing quest to own the libs. that's what this campaign has been about so far, gestures and using the leverage of government to make political statements as we covered yesterday, some walked back since. but he got the headlines he wanted on fox news and other places. he comes in in a position of strength. those poll numbers look pretty good. but to be clear, desantis has not been nationally vetted. sort of a blank canvas. republicans have projected their hopes and dreams they can have trumpism without the baggage of donald trump. but you'd rather be ron desantis at this moment than donald trump. on trump, people around him are sort of baffled at the utter inertia. nothing's happened. he hasn't had a campaign. we ticked through those missteps which has given him a whiff of a

loser given the failures in the midterms. but after a few misguided dinners with white supremacists and special posts saying he wants to terminate the constitution, he hasn't done anything. he hasn't gone to states and said these candidates let you down, i can fix it. he's simply been at mar-a-lago rage posting and yelling at aides. now we get this announcement today, joe, to wrap up here, you'll recall that he had expressed regret that when he left walter reed medical center after recovering from covid that he didn't open his shirt to reveal the superman logo. that's what you're seeing in that graphic. he's finally getting a chance to do that. >> that's his regret. >> yes. there's speculation it could be about his business or his return to twitter, who knows. but the olds are it won't change much in the polls. >> just to put an exclamation point on the desantis conversation, remember in 2008 rudy giuliani was a lock for the

nomination. he felt like, he looked like the guy who should be the nominee and should be the president. it's very early and desantis is only the alternative to donald trump right now. we'll see if more republicans smell the weakness on donald trump or the whiff of a loser as le v you put it, and say maybe i should get in the race too. also on desantis, where he did well during the pandemic was talking about excessive lockdowns and getting kids back into school and our businesses need to be open, people understood that and liked that, but now you're saying people who made the vaccines in record time, the geniuses, the doctors, the pharmaceutical companies, the politicians who pushed it through, they're the villains that supported the vaccine, they're the bad guys now. he's taken a step into a new place. >> it's a stupid place because, again, there will be a small slice of the far right that will be all in with him, which will

make up about 15%, 20% of the population. and you're going to have people who actually know how to read and read newspapers instead of those people who know how to read the 15%, but they read websites run by chinese religious cults and by qanon fanatics and other people who don't care about the lies. but 3 million people's lives were saved by the vaccine according to studies. even at the height of all this garbage people were saying about the vaccines and it's horrible and it's going to make you grow a third arm and a fourth nose and all this crazy stuff, 90% of senior citizens, 90% of senior citizens took the vaccine.

why? because talk is cheap. an they understood as ross perot would say where the rubber met the road. and they knew in their gut, they got off of facebook -- >> listened to their doctor. >> -- listened to their doctor and said we'll do this and save our lives. that's where americans are. they may not love the vaccine, but most americans unless they're really caught up in this qanon swirl and the conspiracy theories, they know the vaccine saves lives. so i'm not sure where ron desantis is going, but wherever it is, it ends in a cul-de-sac on a street in georgia. and it doesn't end well. coming up, we'll go live to the southern border where thousands of migrants are crossing into the u.s. from mexico.

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