hi there, everybody. buckle up, it is 4:00 in new york. there is blockbuster new reporting on the ex president's reckless handling of classified documents, and it could be a determining way he kept government records that never belonged to him containing some of the most sensitive

intelligence including based on news report intelligence about iran and china. a stunning new investigation conducted by the "new york times" takes an in-depth look at trump's private residence and club and how easy it would have been for the thousands of guests at mar-a-lago to get to the government documents. "the new york times" reports that people were within feet of the materials. here is how it is classified at one point topped 300 were found. quote, most of the classified documents in august were found in a storage area which is accessible through two sets of arch doors. this is according to people familiar with the property. and this is what keeps national security officials up at night. the "times" also found that outside of those arched doors leading to its storage area, there were many large scale gatherings near the pool area and outdoor patio during the time nat documents were on the property. photos from some of the events show the arch doors being

partially or fully open. suggesting that guests may have had access to the storage area. as for his office, where more classified were found, the "times" reports that since leaving the white house, trump has had scores of visitors to his mar-a-lago office. and guests have shared the images here on their social media accounts. trump has transformed a one time bridal suite into a stop for republicans with easy access to national security documents as a place that's been known for notoriously lax security. politico described it back in 2017, trump's mar-a-lago is heaven for spies. ania look at how the ex president left the national security secrets exposed is where we start with our favorite reporters and friends. mike submit is back and john heilemann and producer of showtime the circus and host of

the hell and high water podcast for the recount, clint watts is also here he works as a consultant to the fbi and now at the foreign policy research institute. all three are msnbc contributors. mike schmidt, take me through the recreation of a possible crime scene. take us through what the "times" has found. >> so one of my colleagues at times were able to take basically a blue print of what mar-a-lago looks like and take photos that individuals have posted online and we all know that mar-a-lago was a place that trump supporters and republicans flock to and that there is often a lot of events at. and to put them together to tell the story of where these documents were, and not only where they were, but how often people were coming into contact,

you know, in that area, right around then. and you don't need to be, you know, peter struck to know that classified documents need to be protected and held because if anyone gets to them, the damage could be severe to national security. and not only was mar-a-lago a place that trump supporters have gone, it is also a place that foreign business folks go and foreign officials go. and they go to meet with trump and to ingratiate themselves with him and it has been a counterintelligence nightmare as one person described it to me at one point. for the intelligence community. because it is just such an open place and the president so willing and i mean as we've seen in recent weeks, to literally meet with anyone. so you have a president willing to meet with anyone who is

storing these documents very close to areas that people are coming through, literally almost parading through. it is just a remarkable way to look at it and to look at the pikes that people have posted and say, well, at that time, those people were very, very close to these documents. >> yeah, i mean, john heilemann, the juxtaposition that mike is describing between what is by design trump trophying or showcasing the relics of a presidency that he refused to acknowledge even now he lost ahold of by losing support among the american people. the idea that he would not have show cased state secrets and anything else that he thought was a neat relic or memento is more unbelievable and less credible than the idea that all of the people that traipsed through mar-a-lago would have been close to if not shown these classified secrets. >> right.

and, hi, nicolle, happy friday. mike used the phrase that has been running through my mind since i read the story, which is atrib urting to in an intelligence official, a counterintelligence nightmare. he's a walking, talking, if you could call what comes out of his mouth talking, but he's a per ambulating, blathering national security risk. he has been. and if you combine the personality, lack of respect for the institution of the presidency and the united states itself, cavalierness about everything. the extraordinary degree of eco -- of ego mania and his boastfulness. he's both narcissistic but has an uncontrollable tourette's like desire to boast about himself. bringing people into his office

and showing them all of the magazine covers he's been on and he can't stop talking about himself and how he's greatest this that and other thing in the world. now it is through with president and been able to abscond with a bunch of stuff that he has no respect for, it is potential value to our adversaries, he has no-he's cavalier about the consequences and has no respect for the institution and what rules are that are supposed to govern an ex president and combine that with the boastfulness of trump, this is what you get and you get the "new york times" deploying their now famed digital columbo unit to put this back together for all of you kids out there who haven't seen columbia, you could check out that on google and find out. but this team at the "times," the combination of mike's colleagues who are the reports along with this digital team that did all of the this work back on recreating the 1/6

attack on the capitol, they've done it again here. i mean, they've laid it out now in a way that is not chilling. it has to chill you to your toes to think about what has been going on down there given the way that donald trump conducts himself and has been conducting himself with top secret materials over the last two years. >> clint, i want your thoughts on the risk to national security, but i want you to weigh in on these comments from one of the lawyers who may have been in hot water for attesting that the documents have been returned and they really hadn't. her name is christina bob. and this comment is a lie. now what we don't know is whether she flew she was lying but this investigation by the "times" renders these comments a lie. let me show them to you. >> certainly mar-a-lago is secure in and after itself. just getting on to the compound is hard and then it was a locked door and getting backed down

into the basement. there is security, you can't just walk down there. ome certain members of staff could get there and there is only one key. so yes, it is a very limited number of people that have access down there and it was enough to where president trump believed or our team believed that it was secure enough. they asked for one more lock, add another lock, which we did. and then for whatever reason they decided that they still needed to raid the place. >> now we don't need to fact check that, clint watts, because doj does it for us on june 8th. as i indicated to you, mar-a-lago does not include a secure location tlorzed for the storage of classified information. as such it appears that since the time classified documents were removed from the secure facilities at the white house, and moves to mar-a-lago on or around january 20th, 2021, they have not been handed in an appropriate manner or stored in a appropriate location. we ask that the room at mar-a-lago are the documents have been stored be secured and

you all of the boxes that were removed from the white house to mar-a-lago along with any other items in that room be preserved in that room and in their current condition until further notice. so the investigation closed the gap between a public know and are able to access and what doj seems to have known for a little bit longer. >> that is right, nicolle. i think that the comments by trump's lawyer there was by a limited number of people, they meant everyone at mar-a-lago could have access based on the pictures where the door is open. it is absurd. like, every house in america is more secure for those documents. anybody that has a home security system has better control of the premises than that facility which is still filled with unknown people. and we know this even back four years ago, we would be talking on your show about random individuals being arrested at mar-a-lago, we don't know why they're there.

they're foreign national as, taking trips there for money. and there were a couple of cases in 2019. so everyone knows this is a -- a siv for secrets. we don't know who has access to them. the most curious now with the fbi investigation if this were to go to formal charges is what the sources were that they knew the documents were there because that could be revealing if the fbi was talking to people that were in mar-a-lago and in these spaces and saw documents out on the floor and in the office, in the storage facilities, if they had those kind of sources, it is a very damning case i think for whole trump organization and the president himself. going to some of john's comments, look, the danger of these documents is not just about national secrets, it is about sources and methods and who are the sources that collect this information. this is totally left out of president trump's thought process which is if someone were to take these documents, who might die on the other end of

these situations or about the american taxpayers which he seems to have no regard for. if it is a satellite image or some sort of technical collection platform, that may cost hundreds of millions, billion dollars that could be lost in an instant with some of the documents that could have been viewed. so it is broad recklessness and not thinking about what is go for the country, what is good for the safety of american sources, agents, that are out there trying to gather this information, what is good in terms of our technical ability to prevent other attacks and know what our adversaries are doing, that is thrown out the window and that is out of the wend for four years and it is a flagrant right to doo whatever you want with this information. and that sets a norm, by the way, for every prosecution and investigation after this. they could point to it and said

the president of the united states did this and he was never charged or convicted and i think that is the dilemma for the doj, because it sets a dangerous precedent for the behavior after that. >> mike, to clint's point, "the new york times" reporting adds to our understanding it seems of both parts of what we know about the doj probe. the investigation into the underlying crime of taking classified documents and what we know to also be an investigation into obstructing that very probe. the "times" has reported on mr. nurputo and some footage around the storage area. where do you put what the "times" is reporting, do you it is more of an interest though toz building the obstruction case or the original crime case? >> i'm not sure. my guess is that, look, the feds have a very good detailed sense of this much better than we did. and we wore sort of piggy

backing off of the government documents in our own reporting to sort of recreate this. what i wonder about disclosures like the presentation of my colleagues have put out today is that how much does that continue to build on the public's sort of belief and understanding of this. so, if you talk to former prosecutors about whether donald trump would be prosecuted, one of the things that they say is that to bring a case you would have to be something that people could easily understand. and that if you're going to indict someone like trump, it is something that the country could digest and say i get it and this is not not a nebulous idea but this is a concrete thing that the average jury could get their head around. and if you look at it the other way, my guess is that some people will look at this presentation and not that everyone in the country is going to see it, but those who look at

it and say, to sort of clint's point, well what happens if you don't prosecute trump? not only what does that say to the public, but what does that say to other individuals in cases in the government. people throughout the federal government have been nailed on classified -- mishandling classified documents at an increasing rate and it is something that has sped up. and so if you look at this presentation and you say, man, there were so many different people that could be so close to these things and if these documents are as sensitive as people have made them out to be, how is it that that happened? how did this happen? >> you look at that letter from june of 2022, where the justice department knows everything and some sense that stuff is there and it still takes more time for

them to go get -- and you say where doesn't they move faster if the documents were so close to harm's way. >> all of this, heilemann, bill barr has already ahead of where all of had a hand wringing about where we should be or shouldn't be. he's asserted that the crime has taken place in full view and doj has the goods if they choose to proceed. let me show you that. >> what people are missing is that all of the other documents taken, even if they claim to be executive privilege, either belong to the government because their government records, even if they're classified, even if they're subject to executive privilege, they still belong to the government and go to the archives. i think the driver on this from the beginning was you know loads of classified information sitting in mar-a-lago. people say this was unprecedented, it is also unprecedented for a president to take classified information and

put it in a country club, okay. >> i show that, john heilemann, because there is some asymmetry that served him well but if someone had taken classified material, he would have been locked up and charged. so the idea that there is all of this -- and what do you think is going on? >> yes. well, i mean, look, i don't think it is right for us to be wanting the justice department to -- to abandon standards and say, you know what, what he hate about republicans or what we hate about people with no principles or ethics or what we hated about bill barr was that he was a political hack and if democrat were on the other end he would have thrown them in jail and thrown away the key.

we should do that. i don't see how anybody could think that is the right place to be. we should all want our justice department under any administration to proceed cautiously and proceed with a degree of care about making sure they have a case they could prosecute and that it makes sense to prosecute it. and barr, although he's utterly bankrupt, after he makes the points on how the law trump is clearly indictmentable. and said there is a political question here. and that not even a political question, a normal question about whether or not you want to take the country through this, whether the country could understand it, the point that mike made before which isn't a question about whether a prosecutor could make the case, because the country will need to understand it, but whether you could -- you want this case to be a case that is -- that people not only understand, but they recognize the gravity of it and that people of all people of good will could say, yes, this is a extraordinary thing that is

happening, a president did an extraordinary thing and we have to take an extraordinary action. and we understand why and where we could be if we didn't take the action and to take time to build that public consensus is a good thing. we shouldn't say if republicans were in or a democrat, te would have thrown away the key a long time ago. i like that their taking their time. i think it is noble and we should have high standards but i think it is at the point where it is quite clear, you know, what is happened here. the president has done an extraordinary thing, former president has done an extraordinary thing. he's broken the law quite clearly. and the consequences of not indicting him are as clint and mike and you and i have laid out in the past. there are precedent set in either direction and if he's not indicted, it seems just absolutely god awful to me. the last thing i'll say to go back to what clint said before before the difference between mar-a-lago and people's homes, talk about something people could understand, as far as i

know, i bet all four people on this panel would never let a stranger wander into their house. if someone shows up, you know the person or they're there to fix the toilet or deliver a pizza. the only standard for getting into mar-a-lago is are you willing to pay and that is about how secure that place is. anybody with a big enough bank account or credit card could get into mar-a-lago. that is the definition of an unsuckure facility. and i'm going to come back to this point like a dog with a bone. prosecutors will also privately mull whether there is wisdom, the political question of charging a former president. and i good he is my larger point is the obstruction of this investigation has taken place brazenly. it is taken place in full view of the public. it is taken place as a talking point in conservative media, obstructing the fbi, endangering

the lives of people involved in this investigation and potential prosecution, is the feature of trump's response to possessing and lying about returning classified documents, it is not a by product of it, it is how he's playing this. what does the government, what should the government do about that and i on what sort of time line from a national security perspective, clint? >> yeah, again, we find that the fbi caught in the cross-hairs of a political fight that really is about an underlying crime. this was the entire look into the russia investigation, whether it was collusion and then obstruction, what was the tactic it was to destroy the institution. and think we're looking at another era of that. we saw it again, the playbook is go after the fbi, go after the algt agents, try to discredit them and go and doj and something that does going to trial and political warfare which is run for president. and so what we have right now is

someone who at least saying that at this point that their planning to run for office and try to turn it into a political fight and in the process erode the very institutions that that person, the former president, said he wants to be in charge of again. which just i think speaks to the path that we're on in 2023. if there is going to be some indictment that is rolled out, and think it has to happen quickly. it is not something that is going to get better with time. we've got two years just less than two years until election day. we know what the case is and "the new york times" lays it out very quickly and in terms of the national security. if we worried about this, if somebody popped up and said, hey, foreign spies, they did get some of the documents there or pictures were leaked from it, it would be the worst spy movie ever made. it would be called mission possible. meaning it was totally probable that information was leaked. there is no -- it is so in your face and clear from that "new

york times" digital story today that it just is how do you not do something in terms of either prosecuting or moving it toward some sort of action. i think very quickly, one thing i've known about the special counsel is i don't -- compare it to the russia investigation, there were tons of unknowns. people didn't know what happened. it went on for months. this is very clear. it is already out in the public. it is already in search warrants, we know a lot of the details. so i think if they wanted to charge, they could do it and they could do it very quickly. >> i think if they wanted to, based on your analysis, all three of you, being the operative phrase there. to your colleagues and i second what john heilemann said about this video, it goes along way toward helping us understand what happened to all of them and thank you for starting us off. john and clint stick around longer. but when we come back, the next battle ground in combatting hate and extremism could be on your kid's ipad. a new study about video games

shows themes of white supremacy and harassment skyrocketing as we sit here. lawmakers are asking game makers what they plan to do about it. and the president making himself the butt of just about every joke, including mike flynn is auns no announcing today. if the republican party actually have had enough. and later in the show, the january 6 select committee sprawling an unprecedented investigation comes to a close on monday. p we'll look at where that leaves doj. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e. i promise to be a careful steward of the things that matter to you most. i promise to bring you advice that fits your values. i promise our relationship will be one of trust and transparency. as a fiduciary, i promise to put your interests first, always.

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today democratic lawmakers are demanding answers and action from top video game companies about a clear rise of hate and extremism among the online communities and they site a startingle report by the anti-defamation league that finds that 77% of adults and 66% of teens and 60% of kids ages 10 to 12 are reporting experiencing harassment in online games. 15% are nearly two in ten young gamers aged 10 to 17 and exposed to white supremacist ideology in the last year. lawmakers write this to 14 gaming companies. quote, white supremacist actively use online games as recruitment spaces for their ideology using text chat to on-ramp people to their beliefs often targeting vulnerable

youths people looking for online games are vulnerable to that and especially used are still learning and forming their world views. let's bring in steven tillio. steven, i have an 11-year-old, he played multi-player games, i pick it up, and i read all of those exchanges. it is the wild, wild west, while ware talking anyone with a kid age 8 to 18 is likely doing exactly that. that is where a lot of the games are as -- as opposed to being on disks. describe how unregulated this space is and how it works. >> sure. nicolle, thank you for having me. the adl study that you cited in our open is hopeful in putting numbers that games have had, certainly ones i've spoken to or

discussed this online, that it is always been nobody that when you play games online, it could be treacherous. the good news, we could talk about this, the industry has created ways to protect yourself and your kids. but what people are talking about is that it feels like the worst kinds of behaviors have become more normalized and the wort people are feeling emboldened in how they community not just on video games so the adl and the congress folks they are looking at the game industry which has not been as transparent as could be about what they're doing, how much resources they're putting into what they're doing, about this kind of behavior and i think it will be good for everybody to find out a bit more. >> so moms, if you're listening and dads, here is what is happening and where. this is the adl report. 10-year-olds who have experienced harass amount. val or ant, 80% of 10 to

17-year-olds have been harassed. doda. 71%. fortnight, destiny 65% of 10 to 17-year-olds have been harassed. pubg battleground, 65%. >> what is it? say it. >> pug g. player unnobody battleground. >> 65%. kids have been harassed. world of warcraft, i know that one. 64%. call of duty, another one that is ubiquitous, all kids have that one, final fantasy, grand theft auto, these are huge numbers. like 60% to 80% of kids are getting harassed online. and that they know of. do you think they're reporting

it to a parent. >> certainly not. people have experienced toxicity and sexism and geno phobia for playing online. and a lot of gamers felt underheard and was wanted industry to do more and we've seen more parental controls. parents don't know about all of these so i would encourage parents who are listen to this to read up to do some extra research on the fact that you could take a voice chat off an xbox or a playstation and you could deactivate how you kids can interfere when playing fortnight. but there isn't a consistently transparent approach in terms of reporting the kind of abuse and behaviors that happen. and harassment is one thing and that is vile enough. but what the adl is looking at is the worst behaviors when it comes to white supremacy, racism, and all of this is

terrible. but they're seeing a rise there and i would point out it is not just something that kids are experiencing. there is even worse numbers when you look at the numbers on what adults are experiencing in terms of harassment and abuse. and if you look at it, it is not common but we do see signs of some radicalization. the man who attacked paul pelosi. he said in writings that he was radicalized by the online gaming community. about a decade ago, he was in his 30s. he wasn't a kid being exposed to hateful ideology. he was a grown up and we see what he's alleged to have done. so the problem is in any space where millions of people are congregated and that is what video games are, a social space. people could say anything or do anything and the cultures that develop within in there either self-police or don't, and effectively are moderated or their not. and in gaming it is, as you

said, a wild west. it is a battleground in a lot of ways for people who play online. companies are eager to say we're doing things about it. we have policies an we have content policies on our websites. microsoft just put out an xbox transparency report where they talk about banning millions of accounts and in a six month period this year. and we have companies saying they're working on artificial intelligence that they could harness to go into to detect the misbehavior and abusive language. so they are seeking solutions, with what is valuable about the gaming community overall in terms of this letter being sent by the people from congress is that it is pressing game companies to continue to be accountable, to be more accountable for a lot of people gaming is a foreign country, it is something that you're not familiar with, it is a musical instrument that you don't know how to play but you don't know how to do it yourself. and i understand that it could be scary and intimidating if

you're in the community. and so it is challenging to understand what is happening and i think that the silver lining for people when they think about gaming isn't just the amount of positive experiences most people have when they play games, it is that there mechanisms. you're not helpless if you're a parent, you do have some resources, the parental control systems and we'll see what becomes of this. this is a congressional letter. sometimes te get ignored an sometimes they get responded to. they have until january 9th to explain what their doing. >> clint watts, i want to read one more line from the ald report. our results suggest that the inability to build safe respect tfl space for users has made communities within online game platforms so rival with hate that they rival the worst places on internet such as four chan. so we're not talking pg-13, i

can't can't watch a porno or through any other medium. some of them are beingin dunn ated with it in the gaming arena. what do -- what sort of responsibility do we have to elevate this so that policymakers understand it. there isn't even a debate happening because it is not clear everybody understands it. >> and nicolle, i think it is very different than the social media conversations, these are insular and small and the more violent the games, more likely you are to find extremism. and this isn't not a new phenomenon. if with you were looking in al qaeda or isis groups ten to 15 years ago, they would often times say, hey let's go play this video game together. both in terms of just nostalgia, but also in training and in some cases. when you fast forward to today, many of the extremist groups that you see in the younger

generation insell groups, white supremacist groups and excel groups that want to bring about a second civil war and they have a gaming presence and you'll see correctives known for their gaming knowledge. i think the big challenge when you're policing this is how would you detect it. these are largely gaming communities or groups where using tools of automation are difficult in the beginning. you're also talking about multi-media and it is text like with your son's chat. it is video in terms of what you see symbolically in the game. it is audio, and you have to be a member of the group to get in oftentimes in a lot of these. which means you have to have human intelligence. that is going to really -- it is a tough challenge. it reminds me more of the mid 20 thous when we were trying to

tackle counter terrorism. >> thank you for following us and understanding and thank you for adding all of the national security layers on to this. we're grateful to both of you. up next. >> michael steele, this former republican party involves costumes and trading cards. yes. costumes and trading cards yes. happy anniversary. (customer) for what? (burke) every year you're with us, you get fifty dollars toward your home deductible. it's a policy perk for being a farmers customer. (customer) do i have to do anything? (burke) nothing. (customer) nothing? (burke) nothing. (customer) nothing? (burke) nothing. (customer) hmm, that is really something. (burke) you get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. see ya. (kid) may i have a balloon, too? (burke) sure. your parents have maintained a farmers home policy for twelve consecutive months, right? ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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coming and this makes a great christmas gift. [ laughter ] >> even the most die hard trump supporters were like okay now i'm worried. they're like classified documents, you have to catch them all. >> that is jimmy fallon last night. reassuring his audience that what they were seeing was real. the guy was president for four years and that was his major announcement. he teased it earlier in the day. and nfts, digital trading cards that he's selling for $99 each. you can't make this stuff up. they are poorly photo shopped images of himself as an astronaut, of himself as an a nascar driver, of himself as ael -- as an elephant tamer and you could buy four of them and go to a gala at a trump resort but you have to cover our own travel

costs. his latest grift and cash grab from what remains of his base. just another symptom of his superhero complex and his delusions of reality while he faces multiple criminal investigations and fading attention within the gop. joining us is michael steele and john heilemann is with us. and i didn't cover this yesterday because it was too low for me to no go. and even today i have extreme discomfort doing it. but i did remember and during my whole show, i'm checking twitter to see if he's been indicted and all i see is he mentioned the cards. what is interesting to me is i remember when he survived covid and he came back and there was that reporting i believe in "the new york times" that he wanted to pull off his dress shirt and have on a superman costume underneath. his fetish with superhero

outfits is an established fact. and i wonder if we should go back to questions about fitness. dining with kanye west and nick fuentes said a lot about you and the lack of support in the real world and perhaps your instability. >> okay. so, nicolle, there is no longer any question about his fitness. >> hasn't been for a while. >> he disabused of any notion there was concern about his fitness a while ago, number one. number two, he's a carnival barker. this is a perfect thing for him to do. i mean, we still want to put donald trump in some typical traditional political box and expect him to behalf like other announced candidate for president. he didn't like the last time. he's not this time. in fact, he knows that.

i mean, he knows it so well. he's not a stupid man. he sees all of this noise out here about the desantis and people running away. and he's like, okay, i'll make a few bucks while you guys chew on that. and everybody is like, well, no, his base is fallingaway from him. and they're not going to spend money on this. yeah, they will. a lot of it. and he knows it. so, you know, right now, you know, we're expecting him because he's announced that he's running, that we're going to see like people were saying, we thought he would come out with some policy. what policy. there is no policy for him to announce. >> he didn't do that as president. >> right. >> let me push back just a teeny bit. he's trying to make money. there is no evidence he's a successful businessman either, michael steel. and when melania rolled out her suite of nfts, she bought them all back. i got out of the trump prediction making game back in

2016 but i will note that melanie trump tried to make waves with nfts closer to the market peak and wound up buying her own offering. but it wasn't a really cool picture for dressing like a football player standing on the 45 yard line. i think now all the curtains have dropped. he was not a presidential president even in the eye of his supporters. he was not a very good business man and it appears he's not a particularly good superhero, about. >> >> but he raised $250 million after he left office. >> right. from a grift. >> there is that. the grift is the grift. you can color it and dress it any kind of way you want, but at the end of the day, it is still the grift. at his core he's a carnival barking reality tv show character. and who happened to stumble into the white house with a help of a

lot of americans. some of whom want to put him back there. and so while this is all kind of entertainment in one level, sad pathetic sort of shakespearean daniel mall if you will, in another, the reality of it is he's still writing the script. he's still writing the script for reports to report, the establishments to churn their stomachs over and for the base to hand out some dollars here and there when he calls on them, in the final hour, to charge up the hill, what do you think they're going to do? and so, it is -- desantis or anyone else who thinks they want to be a better form of trump, they still have to deal with the original. and he's showing that right now. and i think that, you know, for me, i think what republicans need to do is really have in come to their heart moment where they go not just say we don't

want racism in the party, we don't want this. we don't need trump and trumpism as a part of our republican story because it is not electable. we do a lot of losing with him. we do a lot of what you see rolled out yesterday with his -- his is a announcement. and party is sitting there at docks waiting for the ship to leave that has a thousand holes in it. >> yeah. but i mean, listen, heilemann, michael steele is taking the absolute idiocy of trump and make a profound point not just about his base but about our country, not -- >> not mine. >> you have many gifts. but i'm sure people did buy these -- this foolish stuff. i'm sure it worked for a whole lot of people. >> yeah. i have a number of things to say, nicolle. are you ready? here we go. >> i'm ready.

>> first of all i want to congratulate you on your restraint. i enjoyed that. yesterday when this story came up, i didn't want to sink this low. but today -- >> here i am. here i am, baby. >> it is friday and i don't -- i have a lot of news on the rundown so i'm happy to go this low on a friday with you and michael steele. so thanks for that. >> second of all -- >> you're right, fair. burned. >> second of all, say that amount of restraint that i just, the half restraint, just next week when you're away and i'm sitting in that chair, there will be no restraint. there will be no restraint whatsoever. no one could look forward to an unrestrained week. third, i'll say, yes, it is the thing about this, the nfts don't cost anything to make. every dime, it is a great profit margin. there is no innovation. you don't have to pay anybody to do them. there is no raw materials. this is free stuff.

and so any idiot who pays for those things it is going to straight into trump's pocket. so he's not a good business man but he's a good grifter and as michael steele just pointed out. and then the last thing i'll say is you say some people have bought them. i'll tell you who bought them. i'm going to buy them. i'm first in line. because you know, i have an enemies list at christmas. i have the people that are naughty and people that are nice. people that are nice, they get nice things in their stocking, what do i give the people i hate. i got you, you could send them a lump of coal. a polisheded turd. now i have the perfect gift for everyone i despise. and everyone who's on that list, you know who you are, that's what i'm getting for christmas from me. >> i'm sure sales just skyrocketed. >> i have to go find my dignity. we'll squeeze in a quick break. up next for us, house democrats with another attempt to make sure that the ex-president stays far away from

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being reported that they want to recommend at least three counts of criminal charges against former president trump. how that's -- how that is positioned in front of the country, it's going to be a bit of a popcorn moment. we are going to, all of us, together, cross the rubicon on something that we've never seen before or heard from a congressional committee. and it's going to be an important moment, because i think the one thing this committee has done exceedingly well, it has managed its narrative. it has managed its relationship with the american people, such that the american people trust the information that they put in front of it. and i think that was born out by the nbc "wall street journal" polling the last week before the election, that showed democracy was the number one issue for a lot of voters who were planning to vote that following tuesday. and i think that's in large part because of the work of this

committee. and in a particular way, the way of liz cheney has evolved in this space. and clearly separated the political from the personal from the process. and i think for me, that's going to be a very telling moment about what happens next, because then the ball, as you know, john and nicole, is going to be in the doj's bucket. >> yeah, i mean, liz cheney first read from the federal criminal code a year ago, john heilemann. and she read the text of the statute against obstruction of an official proceeding. she's gone on in interviews to turn up the heat even higher, saying if he's not prosecuted, it would show that there's no rule of law in america. congressman jamie raskin said on this program this week that the standard will be the crimes for which they've amassed fountains of evidence. and i think to a person, this committee feels like there are, indeed, mountains of evidence.

they've also been bolstered by a federal judge, who said trump and eastman likely committed felonies. >> right. and you know, nicole, i was about to say, great minds think alike. but i look back, literally, before the show today, to try to remind myself when it was that when liz cheney first really suggested in a public way that she had -- that trump may have committed a federal crime, and it was december 14th of last year, just a year ago plus two days that she first kind of introduced that into the public dialogue. and really, the question ever since that day to today, and you and i both seized on that at the time and said, this is a huge moment that she has -- is pushing in this direction. there was some reticence on the committee about it at the time. i think there's not as much reticence now, now that we've seen all of this evidence, the committee seems to be where liz cheney has been for basically a year. and to michael's point, i agree with michael. i think that you can say, what's going to be a big week, we'll see what the political consequences of all of this are,

what the fallout is like, what the political reaction is like to -- who are they going to recommend criminal charges against. we've discussed this on this show. is it going to go beyond trump, if it's going to be trump, what are the charges going to be? all of those questions, but really in the end, that is the big kahuna, right? it's not a popcorn moment, it's a bring your full wet bar moment. i have a lot of really good tequila in the studio next week, because it is -- nothing we've ever seen before. it has no legal consequence, whatsoever. but like everything else that this committee has done, it has a huge political consequence. and how they make the case, how they bring this historic set of -- this historic work of their committee to a close and tie this up and say, this is what it's all about, we've done important work here. but in the end, it will be incomplete work here if the following things do not happen, specifically related to donald trump. that is a matter of enormous historic importance and we should all be, even if we think that we know what the outcome is going to be on the basis of

certain reports that we hear between now and then, we should all really care not just what the outcome is, but how it's presented to the country. that's what this country has done so well. it's made the case in public, it's made arguments that have moved the public and thereby created the context in what the doj decides what it's going to do, ultimately, on the legal front. >> and as someone who has covered them, they have surprised us at every turn. john heilemann, michael steele, thank you so much. we will continue this conversation in the next hour. much more on the january 6th select committee's final public meeting on monday and those votes on criminal referrals very likely against the ex-president and his closest allies. that story is next. ident and his closest allies that story is next

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the special counsel will conduct parts of the first investigation i just mentioned. the investigation into whether any person or entity unlawfully interfered with the transfer of power following the 2020 presidential election, or with the certification of electoral college vote held on or about january 6th. this does not include prosecutions that are currently pending in the district of columbia or future investigations and prosecutions of individuals for offenses committed while they were physically present on the capitol grounds on january 6th. >> hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. when attorney general merrick garland appointed special counsel jack smith, he made sure to include the clarification that smith's work goes well beyond those who were physically present and committed their crimes at the u.s. capitol on the day of the insurrection. that everyone involved must be held to account. in just a few days, the stakes

of the special counsel's task will be raised. that's because the january 6th select committee is set to hold its final public meeting on monday, where it will be wrapping up its year and a half long investigation into the capitol insurrection and voting on criminal referrals, very likely against the ex-president and some of his closest allies. congressman jamie raskin, a member of the select committee and the subcommittee that's recommending the referrals told "the new york times" this. quote, we are focused on keep players, where there is sufficient evidence or abundant evidence that they committed crimes. we're focused on crimes that go right to the heart of the constitutional order. such that the congress cannot remain silent. while these referrals won't carry any legal weight, they are significant and legally, especially against the next president, as "the times" reports, quote, in the case of trump, an official finding that a former president should be prosecuted for violating the law would be a rare and unusual step for the legislative branch to take. monday's public meeting will be

the culmination of a sprawling probe into the biggest attack on our capitol in more than 200 years. more than 1,000 witnesses interviewed, millions of documents collected and analyzed, and nearly a dozen public hearings explaining and illuminating their findings. here's just a taste of what we as a country have learned from this remarkable bipartisan congressional investigation. >> over multiple months, donald trump oversaw and coordinated a sophisticated seven-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the chance for presidential power. >> i made it clear that i did not agree with the idea of saying that the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which i told the president was bull [ bleep ]. >> we found evidence that the trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for. so not only was there the big lie, there was the big rip-off. >> the select committee has obtained never-before-seen

photos from the national archives that show vice president pence sheltering in a secure underground location, as rioters overwhelmed the capitol. >> the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engle grabbed his arm. said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. >> he said, so suppose i do this, suppose i replace him, jeff rosen, with him, jeff clark. what would you do? i said, mr. president, i'm going to resign immediately. >> reporter: president trump did not fail to act during the 187 minutes between leaving the ellipse and telling the mob to go home. he chose not to act. >> it's where we begin the hour with a man who is very well experienced in the ways of donald trump and questions about criminality, having served his counsel to the democrats during both of the impeachments of

donald trump. barry burke back. thank you for being here. >> it's a pleasure to be here. >> you're not just here at this moment when the country is literally on a cliff, waiting for monday's january 6th select committee, where they're expected to vote on criminal referrals, including for the ex-president. you're here at an hour where the churn, and i'll just pull back the curtain a little bit, three or four news organizations have reported on what they are. nbc news isn't there yet in their reporting. let's talk about what would be on the table. and if you could take me inside what the conversations sound like. having been involved in the second insurrection, i asked congressman raskin this week about the evidence that he had then compared to what the committee was able to probe and produce and subpoena and interview. and sort of that body of evidence. and he described it, as he does in "the times" and as he did in this show earlier this week, it's layer upon layer upon layer that confirms a lot of what they knew from open source reporting in the second impeachment. >> nicole, that's exactly right. and hearing jamie say it brings

me back to the room as we were preparing for that trial that we had for the second impeachment. and we thought we really did want to treat it like we were prospecting a criminal case, inciting a violent insurrection, which is what we were doing while the standard was whether they were impeachable offenses, it was the same thing. we spent a lot of time, jamie, myself, the rest of the staff, the other house managers in talking about the proof. and it was substantial. and now the committee has done such a tremendous job in building that up, forcing people to come testify and be interviewed or face contempt by a doj that was actually enforcing the law. they now have a tremendous body of evidence. and what they can do, going back to the original trial that was the impeachment trial. then the trial that they've had over many, many days. this is their chance to give a closing argument, tying together the damning conduct and showing how donald trump's intent was so clear from the testimony of those closest to him, but also how his desperation shows how he was committing the offenses.

but then the punch line, what you're getting to is, so what? and so while it is symbolic, the committee does not have the ability to charge him, by saying "we believe the evidence meets a standard beyond a reasonable doubt and the president should be prosecuted for sending a message to the american people, they're saying why it matters, and they're sending a message tonight department of justice, which, of course, is already investigating. and to this, i'll say one thing. the committee has already spoken. we know, when they saw john eastman's e-mails and arguing why the crime fraud exception applies, they say there was probable cause to believe that the president with john eastman's help, right, used his advice in order to obstruct an official proceeding, a federal crime, also to defraud to united states, and the judge agreed with them. >> so, that's -- that's judge carter, who said that there were -- >> exactly. >> and that was -- i don't know what the legal word would be, a charging document. they basically submitted the kind of evidence that you might include in an indictment.

and a federal judge said, yes, it is likely that trump and eastman committed crimes. if your doj and the judiciary has spoken on the likelihood that trump committed felonies and that congress has spoken on the likelihood that trump commit committed felonies, what impact does that have? >> for the department of justice, that does two thing. first, they say, do we have a chargeable offense that we can prove? and i think here the evidence is overwhelming. as someone who defends people, this is about as strong a case as they can bring. much stronger than many other cases they regularly bring. second, though, the question is, should they bring the case? should they indict a former president of the united states, for the first time in our history? that is a big decision. and that is driven by a number of considerations. to me, the most important is saying, no one is above the law. just because he held this position, he doesn't get a pass. what do you say to all those other people that comply with the law or are held to that

standard. but to the extent that the american people understand it and there's a belief that this will not be misunderstood. to the extent that another branch of government has laid out the evidence so powerfully, both factually and legally, that has to be a factor. i have no doubt that the department and the independent attorney general will make their own decisions, separate and apart from any political considerations, but it is more than symbolic that a member -- that a committee of another branch of government is laying out a case so strong and that they did go to the judges, because they went to judge carter, and while the standard is different, it's only probable cause, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it shows that this is real and not political. so i do think that it's going to be powerful. and we know that they're preparing this very large report. and now, i'll tell you, the dirty secret about these reports. >> tell me! tell me all the dirty secrets! >> so i was involved with a great group of colleagues writing the report for the judiciary committee in the first

impeachment. it was a spectacular report. >> maybe one of hundreds that read it. >> the good journalists will read it. historians will read it. the department of justice may read it. but the american people are not going to take the time to read it. so monday's hearing gives the committee a chance to give the -- >> to story tell. >> to tell what's in the report, the bottom line, to close in a dramatic way and show how everything comes together. and i think it's going to be a powerful day, and the committee has done such an awesome job in presenting it, that this will be a high moment where the american people will be reminded about why this matters. and just like they seemed to care at the midterms, that people have to stand up to defend our democracy and our free and fair elections, especially when they're under attack. and in such a public way, if the former president isn't held accountable, all of these other folks out there, who are again claiming elections were stolen, will feel like they have a free pass. i believe this is not only important for the rule of law, for our country, but for our democracy and say that this dark

stain in our history will never happen again. while people may think that they can get away with it, if they believe they may actually go to jail, most people are scared of jail. >> can you explain this theory in criminal justice about a prosecution being a vehicle to make sure the crime isn't committed again? because i think with trump, if he were a car thief, he's saying he's going to thief another car in 2024. can you take me through a basic principle of criminal justice? it seems for all the of the weightiness of prosecuting an ex-president, there's the equal danger to the republic of letting someone who's already said that he's going to do it again and is moving the chess pieces around the board to do it more successfully in 2024. >> you again put your finger right on it, nicole. there are specific deterrents and general deterrents. and that is at the center of the criminal justice system. and ultimately, decisions about whether crime should be prosecuted turn on that very question. specific deterrents. do you need to bring a case,

prosecute him for it, to make sure that that individual doesn't commit that crime or other crimes again? and again, you see that former president trump not only saying that he was right before, but still maintains that the election was stolen and he should be reinstated, despite all the evidence of everybody around him showing and telling him why that's not true and he knows it. now he's running for president again and he's making similar claims and also encourage others, like for the race of governor in arizona to claim it was stolen. specific deterrents, you have a home run of evidence, general deterrents, again, we saw in the last election, all of these people following the trump, you know, path and saying that i believe the election will be stolen, could be stolen, and making claims even after the election, and our system, and often doing it in ways that are not proper and trying to persuade counties not to certify, despite the law requiring that. so that sort of conduct, you have to deter. because i will tell you, as i've said in different ways, i always believe that the laws and rules governing or democracy were engrained in our system. and i came to realize through

the impeachments and also representing states like pennsylvania in the 2020 election, that they're not engrained. >> they're norms. >> they're guidelines. and no one in the history of our nation never, ever had the temerity to challenge them, because they recognize that they are central to our system of government. what makes our system so and our elections so important to the integrity of our system of government. now that you have someone challenging that, you look at all of these states and they have rules set up based on the premise that both parties will have people of good faith that will agree that the candidate that gets the most votes will win. when you have people trying to undermine that, the system is not set up for it. the department has to speak to say, when people are going to violate the law or take steps that are otherwise crimes, they have to be prosecuted, because our democracies and elections depend on it. >> you could also make it a drinking game or a board game, a norm or a law. and because of four games with trump, we know exactly which are laws and which are norms. he's being investigated for much of the things that are illegal and the things that are norms,

he bulldozed through. i want you to take us inside the room. the four members that have made the recommendations for criminal referrals are people very familiar to you. congressman raskin, congresswoman zoe loftgren, liz cheney, and congressman adam schiff. let me know if i have that wrong. but i want to show you -- i tried to pull out of congressman raskin earlier in the week what the raskin standard was. and i think the committee is to disciplined and that's another part of the story that i want to talk to you about, but he didn't want to get ahead of him. let me show you what he said. >> the way i'm thinking of it is we need to have clearly abundant evidence, evidence even more than sufficient evidence to believe that this crime was committed. we want to be identifying key players in the operation. we want to make sure that nobody falls through the cracks and we

want to make sure that the crimes that we're addressing have sufficient magnitude in gravity that the congress of the united states needs to pronounce upon them. obviously, congress is the legislative branch. we don't prosecute crimes. we can't prosecute crimes. but just like everybody else in the country, when we've come into possession of evidence that crimes have been committed, and if those crimes go right to the heart of our constitutional order, and its survivability, then we believe we have an obligation to turn it over to the department of justice and the proper executive branch authorities. >> you speak jamie raskin. which crimes is he talking about, you think? >> so i know. let me just say that jamie raskin presents as such a person of integrity, because he is. and he wants to get it right. and i will tell you a story. when we were in the middle of the second impeachment trial, we were hearing back that so many of the republican senators were so concerned about trump not

only, you know, not doing anything to stop the insurrectionists as they were attacking the capitol, but egging them as they were attacking his vice president. and they were asking, is this part of the impeachable offense, and it is. jamie raskin took that so seriously. we have to get it right, look at the criminal laws and make sure that even though it's not a crime, we're being rue to those principles. and in the same way, what he is laying out is the consequence of events, if they can show that he sought to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power and the vote of congress, those are crimes. now, i don't know how high he's going to go. and often, the charging -- the department of justice or in this case congress giving advice, they don't have to go to the highest crime you could prove, but at minimum -- would that be like seditious conspiracy? >> or inciting insurrection. and if you remember, the judge who refused to dismiss a complaint against trump for inciting insurrection said, there is supported evidence. again, different standard, but he found some support for

inciting an insurrection. but what jamie raskin is saying, is if we see that donald trump is interfering with the proceeding, there are crimes that would have been committed and it's our duty to say that. that at minimum covers obstruction of an official proceeding, because that's what the certification of the vote is, and clearly that was obstructed in a whole range of ways. it's a big conspiracy. and the other is defrauding the united states. and you can go back from the very beginning, when donald trump lost all the lawsuits and then he went and tried to persuade state officials, like brad raffensperger to do things that were improper. he tried to weaponize his department of justice to use the criminal laws to try to effect the election. he then tried to weigh in on his vice president known to do things against his oath. and when it was all done, he used the violence and words of violence to encourage incitement by the people who were told to come down when he knew he had no other way of preventing this. so when you look at that, i think what the american people should see is a set of facts that support crimes and support serious felony crimes by the

former president of the united states. and where the committee lands on how serious to go, i'm not sure is so important as is the hearing when they walk through all the evidence and they actually stand up there and say, we believe a former president should be prosecuted for these crimes. and how important it is. and i think we're definitely going to hear that. and given how thorough and thoughtful the members of this committee have, given how they've shown sort of that they want to appeal to a broad group of people, i think it's going to be really a detailed, nuanced, nonpolitical presentation. >> and to your point about doj seeing it as a non-political move on monday, when they are likely to refer donald trump criminally, for at least the things that you're talking about, two of the republicans on the committee lost their jobs. this is ant political -- it's the opposite of political, right? cheney, it has cost them their political careers to gather this evidence and present it to the country, the vast majority of it from

lifelong republicans. does that -- where do you see their work sort of meeting what is known to be through subpoenas for the fake electors, participants, that become public, where do you see their work focused almost exclusively on donald trump with what we know, what's sort of in the public churn from jack smith's probe into the efforts to overturn the election? >> so what i see -- so they are profiles in courage. so many members of their party had the exact same views, but didn't speak out for political reasons. what i think they have done so well, and i give both of them tremendous credit, is the most-damning witnesses throughout most of these proceedings have been republicans. lifelong republicans. people who weren't anti-trumpers, they were working for trump. they were with him. they still support him. and they were the witnesses. and that is so important for the department of justice, because when they're looking at any criminal case, the question is, can my witness be attacked for bias? oh, they don't like trump, that's why they're saying it. oh, they're making that up. they have a vendetta. the strongest, most powerful

witnesses to these crimes and the sequencing of events that shows the intent that anybody would be prosecuted came from his closest allies, including the people that were recently his counsels, who were forced to testify on the grand jury, even though he didn't want to because there was no executive privilege. if you're looking at it from the republicans' perspective, they say, let's tell the story through the words of republicans, their own stories, powerful to the american people. takes it out of the public realm. but for the department, those are extraordinary witnesses to put before a jury, because they have no bias. they don't want to be there. they're just testifying as to the truth. >> and they're bias towards their party, toward the guy they voted for and worked for. it's so amazing to get to talk to you any day, but especially as we sit in this gap between what we think might happen and what we know. this committee has surprised us every time they've done something. so it's just invaluable to have you here. thank you so much. >> thank you, nicole. it's an honor to be here. >> no, it's an honor to have you here. thank you very much. when we come back, another barrage of missile strikes by

russia against cities all across ukraine, including the capitol city of kyiv, but there is some hope today that a new missile defense system supplied by us, the united states, could begin to turn the tide. general barry mcraffy and michael mcfaul will be our guests. plus, a new development involving brittney griner, what she's hoping to do to win the freedom of paul whelan and other americans wrongfully detained in russia. plus, an emotional president joe biden paying tribute to his late son, beau, just days ahead of the anniversary of the tragic accident that completely reshaped his life. how a man who has built his private and political career and life around the pillars of loss and grief and faith is approaching a crucial decision about what he will do next. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪things are getting clearer♪ ♪i feel free to bare my skin♪

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russian forces continue to brutally pummel ukrainian energy infrastructure today. it's an attempt to make life a living hell for the ukrainian civilian population, as temperatures plunge below freezing with the official start of winter just days away now. the entirety of ukraine was put under an air raid alert as moscow launched more than 60 missiles all across the country, including at the nation's capital city of kyiv for the second time this week. according to ukraine's armed services prompting large scale blackouts to the energy grid to conserve power. these attacks come as new fears arise for what the war may bring in the new year. in an interview with the guardian, ukraine's defense minister said that there was

evidence that president putin was planning for a major new offensive in 2023, looking to reassert his forces after a few humiliating defeats on the battlefield since the war began. joining us, nbc international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul is back, now an msnbc international affairs analyst. with me on set, retired four-star general, barry mccaffrey is here, commander of the 24th infantry during operation dessert storm, a member of the national security counsel, now an msnbc military analyst. i was saying to you in the break, and i'll say it on tv, you've been right in all of your predictions and your assessments of what you see happening, especially on the russian side. do you agree with ukraine's defense minister, that russia is gearing up for a major new offensive? >> i think it will be something that they will try. they're desperate. strategically, i think they've already lost the war. operationally, they're not able to deal, essentially, with a very active, aggressive ukrainian military force.

now they've defaulted to a position where they'll destroy much of the civilian infrastructure in ukraine. but i cannot see them regaining the initiative to seize odessa, trying to seize car kyiv, or -- i don't think it's going to happen. these people have lost too much equipment, too many people, and they haven't learned from their mistakes. their logistics are a mess. their manufacturing base can't keep up with the war they're fighting. as long as the west stays with ukraine, which i think is going to happen. >> ambassador mcfaul, the ukrainians i think would offer the same assessment. but i think their pain at seeing their country obliterated by the indiscriminate bombing of infrastructure and civilian targets. people are still dying in ukraine just about every day of the week. what is -- do you think the west has the appropriate level of pressure on russia right now?

>> no, i don't. i think the support from the west and the united states in particular, our military assistance has been great, fantastic, outstanding, historic, and needs to be more. the sanctions that the west has put in place with the united states oftentimes in the lead has been great and needs to be done much, much more. and third, now ukrainians need more humanitarian assistance. i was just on a call yesterday with several ukrainian colleagues. and listening to their stories about how they are enduring these terrorist attacks from putin. remember, putin can't advance on the military field, so he's resorting to terrorism against civilians. they need desperately new humanitarian assistance. so, great job so far, but now we have to lean in even greater. >> they have sought -- president zelenskyy has sought and speaker pelosi and congressman jim himes, very prominent democrats were supportive of a state sponsor of terror decision for

vladimir putin and russia. is that appropriate? >> well, i think the answer is "yes." there's some legal implications to it that i'm not quite clear on. but at the end of the day, the real problem we're facing right now is that the the primary target of putin, putin can't back out of this campaign. strategically, he can't win it. he's turned to a terror campaign, as ambassador mcfaul says. the outcome, it seems to me, is going to get decided militarily. and in the long run, the russians can't keep this up either. so i think the shortfall that i'm concerned about is we need to give ukraine offensive military technology to increase the pain, not just on the russian army, but politically on putin. it's all well and good. we're sending one battery of patriot missiles, the u.s. army has 50 batteries of patriot missiles. but they need longer, in-depth, deep fires, they probably need the m1tanks, and they certainly

need lethal drones. without which this thing could grind on until next summer, with huge loss of life by the civilians. >> and that's putin's best hope, at this point? >> yes. >> ambassador mcfaul, let me read from some of this reporting about the patriot system. this is from nbc's reporting. the system will not only give ukraine vital new strength to defend its cities against missile attacks, but also illustrates that the kremlin's grinding effort has dope little to erode western's supports for kyiv's cause. the war has become a battle over who has the most ammunition. experts said the likely patriot offer comes after months of intense russian attacks that have pushed ukrainian defenses mostly cold war era equipment it inherited from the breakup of the soviet union to be on their limit. when ukrainians, you know, come to our air waves and try to be extremely diplomatic and grateful, in case any u.s. policy makers happen to be watching, it seems that this is what they're trying to navigate. it only becomes clearer to

outsiders when you read the reporting that they've been underresourced. what is their actual wish list, if you know, i'm not trying to be polite. what is the difference between what they have and what they need to win? >> let me say two things, first. it's great the patriots are coming now. but why didn't they come four or five months ago, when many of us were talking about that they needed them, right? and i would say that you could have that same debate about every weapons system. general mccaffey just told you what the ukrainian wish list was. they want tanks, they want firefighter aircraft, even if they have to have mig 29s retrofitted, they want weapons that can go on the offensive. what they fear the most, when i talk to ukrainians, is a long stalemated war, that could go on and on and on, that we lose interest in. and two things happen. we lose interest, and ukrainians die. remember, if those patriots had been there before, maybe

ukrainians that were just bombed in the last 48 hours might not have died. so, i think we've got to get out of this notion that we, you know, fear of escalation. we all agree with that. but i think we've overestimated the fear -- the threat of escalation from mr. putin. i don't think he has a lot of great escalatory steps available. and the faster -- the fastest way to end this war is to give the ukrainians the weapons they need to repel the invading army. if we just keep to the stalemate, i fear that we'll lose interest and a lot of ukrainians will die. >> so we have to sneak in a break, but on the other side, david letterman, president zelenskyy, we'll see their conversation. there's also a big announcement to tell you about from brittney griner, newly freed from months of unjust detention in russia. all of that's next. don't go anywhere. us rsia. all of that's next don't go anywhere. at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive,

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>> we're back with former ambassador michael mcfaul, retired four star general, barry mccaffey. i've become a student and a huge fan of president zelenskyy's leadership and communication. and the most available logic. someone who sits at a table that long to avoid getting the coronavirus does not seem like someone with an appetite to die. it's painfully obvious it's probably right. >> well, i agree with president zelenskyy. and i think he is a fantastic communicator. but i think we also need to

understand that putin threatens to use nuclear weapons to deter the west. by doing that, he is deterring us from providing those weapons systems that you were talking about earlier in your program, right? that's what he is doing. he's not some lunatic threatening to blow up the world. he doesn't want to die, i agree with president zelenskyy. but he does throw it out there as a way to deter nato from providing certain weapons systems. and i think we have to admit, east been successful at that. >> and what's the remedy for that? he's obviously manipulating the last to make us afraid of nuclear war. and what the ambassador is trying to say is it's working. >> i've dealt with russia for years and i was a lead nuclear arms negotiator on on a rational basis, there is zero chance of putin employing tactical nuclear weapons in ukraine. what would the target be? would it be the city of kyiv? trying to find a battalion out in the open and nuke them? so on an intellectual basis, it

can't possibly happen. having said that, i think biden and lloyd austin and blinken are properly concerned about watching this man, is he unstable, if the ukrainians seize crimea and capture the black sea fleet, what would putin do? so there is room to be extremely concerned about his mental state and how all of this will play out. i think at the end of the day, ambassador mcfaul's entirely correct. this is just a threat to deter the west. but to some extent, we have to take a lookout. >> ambassador mcfaul, i want to ask you about brittney griner's commitments. i know you watched these comments very closely about other americans who were still legally detained in russia. he talked about paul whelan, but what aid can she give?

she's going to return to playing basketball, but she will stay involved in trying to help other detained americans. >> first, to remind everybody, i think it's fantastic that she's free. anytime an american is free from captivity in a wrongly captured, we should all celebrate. i do not like the way this has been a partisan issue. and second, i applaud her. she has a giant platform. she has millions of people who care about her, and to work for people like paul whelan, and i hope mark fogle, who do not have as big as platforms, i think that's a heroic act and i'm very grateful she's doing it. >> and what can we deduce about griner from the exchange? >> i do believe there's a certain extent in enhancing these own vulnerabilities to these kidnappings by having them dealt with at the highest level. i've been in and out of places like columbia where kidnapping is a major industry. and in putin's case, it's a political act.

he's carrying out. but to echo ambassador mcfaul, it's obviously a good news that bill richardson and the state department were able to get griner out. others will remain hostage. but we shouldn't tee this up as driving u.s. policy. now, having said that -- >> because it endangers americans -- >> it just makes us all more vulnerable. if you go to columbia or ecuador or peru, people buy ransom insurance before they go down there. so we want to try to keep this out of the public discussion. ambassador mcfaul knows all about this. i think the other thing you have to realize is that putin is so desperate on the war in ukraine, that his actions are in many cases illogical. and we ought to be concerned about that, looking for it. what is he capable of doing, as the war grinds on, without any success. how long can you explain it on russian state tv, that the

three-day campaign now entering its tenth month is just going hunky-dory. will the russian army break, is the other question in my mind? and they're not going to break until we give more offense i have tools to the ukrainians, who are capable of taking these people apart. >> and winning. >> and winning. yeah. >> all right. it's great to have both of you. great to have you here in the studio. former ambassador michael mcfaul, general barry mccaffrey, thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, how fate and grief and loss, the factors that have long-shaped president joe biden's political career could inform the decision he's expected to make regarding another white house campaign. that reporting after a quick break. don't go anywhere. reporting afk break. don't go anywhere. r eight lives? hola señorita, do you like gazpacho? the wishing star will give me my lives back. is the great puss in boots asking for help? you ok? si. i am good. the dark forest.

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so when we cover or talk about president joe biden, it's important to do so in the context of his near super-human ability to comfort other people, regardless of their political affiliation, to soothe and address and speak to grief in souls who have experienced unimaginable loss. and it's no secret -- he makes no secret of the fact that that ability on his part comes from his own past, his own lived experience. so with that in mind, sunday marks the 50th anniversary of the accident that killed his first wife and infant daughter. that alone would be enough for anyone to deal with, but today another burden on a heavy heart. the president delivered a powerful speech on the pact act

that helps veterans harmed by toxic burn pits. he delivered that speech at a national guard base in delaware this afternoon. to be more specific, the major joseph r. beau biden iii national guard reserve center. hallowed ground, named after the president's son, who died of cancer thought to be caused by such a burn pit. here's the president from earlier today. >> i ride by this building a lot, wanting to fly back and forth to washington or wherever i'm going. and it always leads a little lump in my throat. my wife's last warning today. she said, joe, don't get emotional. not that i ever get emotional. but, it means so much to me. and it meant so much to beau. >> let's bring in the most perfect people, nbc news white house correspondent, mike memoli, plus the reverend al

sharpton, host of nbc's "politics nation," and the president of the national action network. mike memoli, you know the president. you know what this day, this moment was like. take us inside. >> well, nicole, for the last few weeks, we've heard president biden ask repeatedly about his political future, and he's really offered a consistent answer each time. the first is to say that he intends to run for re-election, but there's been a but, and he says, i'm also a respecter of fate, and a lot of people doesn't know what he meant by that. but when i've been talking to people close to the president, they point to as you make plans and god laughs and that's been president biden's experience through his whole life, you know, 50 years at this time he was a senator elect, a real bright spot for democrats at a time they just seen george mcgovern lose 49 states in nixon's re-election. and then the bright future he

was beginning to plan was totally shattered by the death of his wife and his infant daughters, two sons, of course, both badly injured. anticipate that gave him obviously what you talked about, this well of empathy that we talked so much about. it is really forged his career in working along bipartisan lines, the relationships he built from that support network he ended up building in the senate when he joined it. but it also given him a different set of factors that i think had been less appreciated which is a perspective of what really matters. it's also sort of an ability to crowd out the noise. and so as he's heading in now to decide what to do in 2024, all signs point to him running for re-election. he recognizes that there is a hidden hand of fate that might still weigh in here. he's recognizing that. and so we're going to see president biden return to wilmington. they'll mark that anniversary as they have for each of the last 49 years, privately and with each other. and it's one of the many times we're going to see them gather as a family and consider their

future as well. >> it's such a nuance but vital piece of this man. and it's something that you stair up close. we talked last week about who you're often the first person to go to a family that lost everything. that doesn't necessarily have access to the media or the legal system. but it is so rare. we don't talk about it enough. this idea that yourlouvre can -- life can change in an instant. >> people forget, even people in movements, forget these are human beings and who didn't plan to be thrust into the spotlight. they didn't plan to be considered victims. but i must say this in all sincerity. in the decades i've done this, i never seen anyone more effective with a family than joe biden.

in 2020 when george floyd had been killed in minneapolis, biden had just about clinched the nomination and everyone knew he was going to be the democratic nominee. he called and said he wanted to come to houston where we were having the last funeral for george floyd. he said, al, i don't want to come on the day of the funeral. there are secret service. i don't want to get in the way of having people have to be wanded and all that. we came the day before. we arranged for him to meet the family in a soul food restaurant in houston. the family was a little late because of the car, couldn't get through, whatever, to get there. i sat with him and dr. jill for about a half hour and when the family got there, he did not make a pitch about legislation. he didn't make a pitch about photo ops for him. he talked to them as one grieving person when lost a child, two children and a wife.

and the pain that they were going through. i felt like i had another minister in the room. then in the middle of us talking, we brought up the issue we wanted him to raise in the campaign. he got up and went over and brought the little girl that -- at that point she was a young girl, maybe 6 or 7, george floyd to the side. and he said how are you doing? and he started talking to her. and it was at that point she said my dad is going to change the world which he told the world that she had said. and he had her there when he signed the george floyd executive order. as much respect as i had for joe biden through the years i knew him since '88 when he first ran for president, i never, ever saw a more compassionate person. my respect for him increased. it is not playing to the cameras. this is who he is. i think this experience 50 years

ago changed him forever and it drives him. and it's sincere. something you can't conjure up. you know, i was told by people that they can feel before you they can hear you. can you feel that from joe biden. >> mike, the rev mentioned dr. jill biden. do you have any sense either reported out or intuitive from knowing the first family what her views are about another run for the white house? >> well, we spoke to her just a few weeks ago to really kick the tires on where she stands. we know there is no more important influence, more important adviser than the first lady. and she made it clear. she thinks that the president is still the most experienced, the best person to be president at this particular time. and i think the larger context that she herself has seen, remember, in 2013, vice president biden just re-electhood perhaps what he

thought was the best chance to be elected president. and what happened just as this team was setting up for a potential 2016 bid was beau biden was diagnosed with cancer and ended up being the reason did he not run. well, dr. biden is among those in the family who were told are fully supportive of re-election bid. and some of the factors, nicole, that we might think the family is considering at this time, you know, can he win again? what is the competition going to look like on the other side? those are all secondary issues to this family as it's been put to me. they know what real losses look like. losing a campaign is not that. it's whether he still has more to offer to the country and they feel he does. >> mike, thank you for covering this white house. reverend al sharpton. thank you both for having this conversation with us. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. ing me a million different ways i should be trading. look!

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we're so grateful. the beat starts right now. happy friday. >> happy friday. you have any plans next week? just hanging out? >> i'm taking my family away. we've been in the country the first time since covid. >> and john made clear that because he's here everything will go up in flames. so we'll see when i'm back on the 27th. >> i think i sympathy he for not all but some msnbc viewers who feel that nicole wallace should never be gone on any week day because there say lot of government and other news. and i'll speak for the other

side. good lawyers can go both sides