as always, i'm grateful for your time and thanks for watching the katie phang show. i will be back tomorrow morning live at 7 am eastern, live, on msnbc. velshi's nest. >> today, until, see the very latest breaking news on the three criminal charges that the january six committee is actively considering recommending against donald trump. plus, it took less than two months for the self proclaimed, free speech, absolutist who brought twitter to start kicking journalists off the platform. what elon musk's latest escalation means. and a special edition of the velshi banned book club, we will show you who is really behind a wave of book bans. spoiler alert, it is not a grass roots movement of concern moms. velshi starts now. >> good morning, it is saturday,

december the 17th. i am ali velshi. we now know the committee investigating the january six instruction is actively considering sending multiple criminal referrals of donald trump to the justice department. nbc news has learned that while no former decisions have been made, the committee is weighing whether or not to make three criminal referrals for the twice impeached ex president. the charges they are considering include conspiracy, obstruction of an official proceeding, and inciting an insurrection. remember, that last charge is important. multiple sources stressed to nbc news that all three options remain on the table. nothing is resolved, just yet. sources also tell msnbc news that the committee is expected to meet at least twice over the weekend, before making this decision. on monday, the committee is planning to vote on its final report, and on any potential referrals. that is what we know about the referrals, but what does the actual evidence tell us? about a year ago, trump, lawyer john eastman, filed a civil suit to block the january six

committee from obtaining emails. you'll remember, he was a instrumental figure in the fake electoral plot which was attempting to send separate slates a pro trump electoral college votes to college congress. that would've allowed, on january six, if you wanted to, mike pence to do something that would have overturn the results of the election. not only did eastman sued to block the committee from getting the emails, and it failed, but u.s. district judge, david carter, concluded in march that the fake electors plan was obviously illegal. judge carter wrote, quote, every american, and certainly the president of the united states, knows that in a democracy, leaders are elected, not installed. president trump, knowingly, try to subvert this fundamental principle based on the evidence the court finds. it more likely, than not, had president trump corrupting and attempting to disrupt the joint session of congress on january six, 2021. and quote. to be clear, judge david carter

's ruling was strictly about whether the committee could access john eastman's emails. but it is the ruling that they take very seriously. members have said that ruling during their public hearings. the january six committee has been floating the possibility of referring the former president to the department of justice for sometime now. while it would be a dramatic step, the idea of sending a criminal referral of trump to the doj is not a complete surprise. what is new here is the content of these potential criminal referrals. as the new york times reports, quote, it had been widely expected. the panel would recommend charges against mr. trump for obstruction and official proceeding of congress and conspiracy to defraud the united states. the panels members have already argued in federal court that they believe it was likely that he committed those two felonies. but, the addition of an accusation of insurrection was a new development. remember, inciting an insurrection was the subject of donald trump's second

impeachment, last year. convicting a former president of inciting an insurrection would be an extraordinary challenge for prosecutors, and, a criminal -- january six committee is just that. it is a referral. but, this is new ground. we are on it. i want to bring in paul butler, former federal prosecutor, an msnbc legal analyst. a real pleasure to see you, in real life, paul. you and i talked a lot from a distance. let's start with insurrection. it is tough. now, what are the advantages of an insurrection charge if successful? two people prosecuting donald trump, you cannot hold office if you have been convicted of insurrection. it is a big win for the future of this country but of those three, possibly the toughest. >> definitely the toughest. incitement is the claim that trump set the mob, which he knew was armed, on congress. in order to stop the votes from being counted. trump's defense will be he is being prosecuted for his words

and that he is being prosecuted for thought crimes or free speech. in order to win the craze prosecutors will have to prove that trump's words were intended to cause violence, and also, likely to cause violence. they have some receipts. like, his statements at the rally that you have to fight like hell. if you do not you are going to lose your country. >> tell me about the distinction between what the committee knows and the way they gather that information and evidence? and what the department of justice would have to do once they receive these criminal referrals, however many there are. what can they do that information? is it a roadmap? is it a sign of who is around? can they actually use any of the testimony as a reference? >> so, ali, when i was a federal prosecutor we got tons of referrals from everybody. we usually did not pay them much mind. we are not, legally, obligated to do so with the justice department. that, think of this referral as a road map with receipts. we are talking, millions of text messages, and emails.

the house panel interviewed 1000 people. the justice department will get all of those transcripts. this is not just, hey guys, take a look at this. this is, we have serious evidence that the former president, of the united states, should be prosecuted for three felonies. >> from a legal standard perspective, let's say they decide these thousand witnesses, they will prosecute some of these referrals. they will use some of those witnesses. they will have to re-interview them. they will have to subject them, if there is a trial, to cross-examination. something that did not really have an of the january six committee. there will be other people that, maybe, they did not get at the end of the process of a criminal conviction subpoena. >> so important. so, you talked about the judge saying that there was probable cause. i think that trump, and eastman, and others, with this big lie, they committed felonies including some that the house is going to recommend to the justice department.

but, proprietor ins of the evidence, that is like 51%, to win in a criminal court, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is required. the justice department is not going to bring this case unless they think they can persuade 12 people on a jury. all they have to get is reasonable doubt from one person. and they lose. this is high stakes. >> so, what then happens here? let's say these three things we think are going to be referred get referred on wednesday. i do not know what the mechanism is. a letter, a package, boxes that go to the department of justice. someone, including jack smith, the special prosecutor, are they compelled to look at this? >> they are not compelled, but, since all of the evidence suggests that they are very seriously considering criminal charges, they are going to want to roll out these thousands of pages to make sure that they have not missed anything. to think about whether or not they want to bring some of these witnesses into the grand jury to get their statements on

record. the house panel has some people on videotape, transcripts of others, but the department will want to pause all of this t's and dot all its eyes to make sure it knows every single thing. there has never been a prosecution of a president, or a former president. this will be historic. the justice department will want to make sure, again, that they win the case, if they actually bring it. >> well, thank you so much. it is good to see you in real life. a former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. the republican party has an extremism problem. it all leads back to the ex president. so much so that some of its former allies are considering running against him in 2024. one of those people's former national security adviser, john bolton, who is standing by. he joins me next to discuss the pretentious presidential bid, extremism inside the gop, the war in ukraine, and a lot more. plus, for the first time ever scientist have done a successful fusion reaction. this breakthrough could be an

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two and a half weeks and republicans officially retake the house of control of the group of representatives, when a new group of lawmakers sworn and on capitol hill. republicans will have a slim nine seat majority of the house. far fewer than the 60 seats the house republican leader, kevin mccarthy, had predicted that his party would be able to flip this year. and, part of the blame for that rests with donald trump. the divisive, and disgraced former president who's many scandals and political grievances had become a liability for the republican party in the last three election cycles. but, trump has undeniably energized a new generation of republican politicians. 24 of the 48 republicans elected to congress for the first time, this year, are election deniers who supported, or echoed, trump's big lie. three of them were in

washington d.c. on january 6th as the insurrection of the capitol unfolded. max miller of ohio was actually subpoenaed and interviewed by the january six committee because he helped organize the rally. where trump spoke, former to the mob storming the capitol, derek norton, and in the coming wisconsin congressman, attended that rally, as well, before marching to the capitol. the representative-elect, george santos, who flipped his district in new york from blue to red, was also at the rally. he remarked at the time that, trump was quote, at his full awesomeness that day. his full awesomeness. those three will be in good company when they arrive on the help. many of the republicans already in congress are election deniers, themselves. in the weeks after the 2020 election, at least 34 republicans texted with trump's former chief of staff, mark meadows, about overturning the election results. according to talking points memo's reviewed, of those text messages, mark meadow turned over to the january six committee. one congressman, ralph norman

of south carolina, texted meadows saying, quote, we are at a point of no return. saving a republic, our last hope, is invoking martial law. please urge the president to do so. that is how he spelled martial law. norman some bent taxed, by the way, on january the 17th of 2021. 11 days after the insurrection and three days before president biden's inauguration. three days before the inauguration they are talking about putting martial law into place. last month he was elected. he was reelected, by the way, to the house. the georgia congresswoman, marjorie taylor greene, was identified as one of the people in contact with meadows, as well. a week ago at a gala hosted by the new york, run young republicans clause. she told the crowd, quote, steve bannon and i had organized, that meeting, january six, we would have won. not to mention, it would have been armed. these are the types of people that donald trump has attracted to the republican party. his combated attitude and open,

abrasive, unfounded conspiracy theories have made the gop a welcoming place for extremists. and trump's far-right presidencies have also thrown his campaign, for the 2024 presidency, into utter chaos. in just the past month he died with an and tie summit and a holocaust denier at his own home and a week later he declared that the constitution should be terminated while continuing to debate baseless claims of election fraud. his -- swift rebuke from the white house, also got the attention of trump's own former national security adviser, john bolton. my colleague kristen said that if other prospective presidential candidates do not repudiate trump, it will be, quote, one thing that will get me to get into the presidential race, and quote. the former national security adviser and former investigator to the united nations, john, bolton joins me now. thank you for joining us. >> great to be with you. >> you are not a regular on our

show. for some obvious reasons, we do not see eye to eye on a number of issues. but, i do want to ask you about some things having to do with what we just talked about. about the republican party and its prospects going forward. after herschel walker's loss to senator raphael warnock in georgia, you tweeted, quote, the outcome in georgia is due, primarily, to trump who cast a long shadow over this race. has meddling and insistence that the 2020 election was stolen will deliver more losses. trump remains a huge liability and the democrats best asset. it's time to disavow him and move on. now that that is over, do you think any of that message is getting through to your republican colleagues? >> i think it is getting through, overwhelmingly. i think trump has been on a downhill slope within the republican party since the 2020 election. certainly, since january the six. i think it continues and i think all around the country, and i have talked to i don't know how many republicans since

november the 8th, there is little doubt that while there were other factors involved, the trump factor was the primary reason why republicans did not do as well as expected on november the 8th. i think it is like, frankly, turning a light switch off for trump's prospects. he certainly has not done anything to help himself. since then, talking about terminating the constitution, and most recently, this week, with his nft gambit. so, trump's influence is declining. that hurts some people's feelings. they want to use trump to -- the whole republican party. but that gambit will not work. >> i thought it was going to get through this weekend without talking about those nft trading cards, but they are quite something. the idea that donald trump has figured out how to sell something for $99 with absolutely zero overhead. there is no cost that goes into that whole thing. kind of amazing, even by donald trump standards. if you, john bolton, were to pursue a presidential run, first of all, how serious are you about the potential of that?

and, would your marine purpose be to dispel donald trump's presidency bid? we'll be right on some particular issues? >> look, i considered running very seriously in 2016. i did a lot of the preliminary things that one does. i want to cattle shows in iowa and new hampshire. i traveled around. i talked to a lot of people. i brought my family to new hampshire at one point. i, ultimately, decided not to run. but my point is, i have looked at how this arduous process works. i know it is a very serious decision. it is one you have to consider seriously. what i was disappointed in was the lack of affective reaction. this was to trump's comments about terminating the constitution. so, i have talked to a lot of people. i have been to texas, california since then. if i do get in it will be to win the nomination. not simply to prove a point. that is a serious, difficult decision to make and i will consider it in a prudent fashion. >> one republican who did

address those comments, donald trump's comments about terminating this, with senator leader, mitch mcconnell. let's listen together to what he said. >> let me just say that anyone thinking about the presidency thinks that the constitution could, somehow, the suspended, were not followed, it seems to me would have a very hard time being sworn in. this would be as president of the united states. >> that was a bit interesting. twisting oneself into a pretzel. he, notably, did not say donald trump's name. he did not say there was no room in the republican party for donald trump. he said antisemitism and white nationalism. kevin mccarthy did not address the matter at all. he scored an around. no one should have dinner with nick, type thing. donald trump loyalists, election deniers, and extremists have infiltrated this party that you are, possibly, considering running to represent. a lot of republicans i talked to say the republican parties

unfixable at the moment. >> well, i think that position is delusional. i think that this whole idea that there is a trump movement out there is simply wrong. the fundamental point in politics's philosophy. everything else flows from that. donald trump has no philosophy. donald trump does not think in policy terms. there is no trumpism and there is no real succession to trump. i think one real piece of evidence for that point flowing from the 2000, from the november 2022 election, is that so many trump endorsed candidates loss. and with a few rare exceptions there have been no election contests, no lawsuits contesting the losses, and people had accepted the losses, conceded, and moved on. there are exceptions but they are notable by the fact that they are in sections. i think this whole thing represents what is fundamentally a reality about donald trump.

he is an admiration in american politics. it is the job, not of the liberal media, not of the democratic party, it is the job of republicans to repair the damage he has done and that is what we are about. >> i think you are absolutely right about that. it is the job of the republican party. i will say, in your time as a republican, i don't know whether you think you are a mainstream republican. i always sort of thought you might be a couple ball rooms to the right of that. but now you are not. right now you are outflanked by a whole bunch of people in the republican party. they are nowhere near where you are. >> this is not an ideological contest. the fact is, my kind of conservatism, the kind that i supported with barry who won for president, and when ronald reagan ran for president, is the mainstream republican party. these outliers, and there are some, there are a virus of isolationism within the party, it is not a conservative philosophy. it is not a philosophy at all. it is performance art.

that is what donald trump wants. >> all right, we will talk a little bit more about the lot philosophy in positions when you come back. you are someone who has had a lot of experience in both of these major issues, right now. stick around. after the break i want to head overseas and get your thoughts. including on things abroad. including ukraine. including the unrest in iran. we will be right back. >> trying to control it trying to control i enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

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to the iran human rights organization. it comes as the u.n. nuclear watchdog says the rim continues to collect the enrichment of uranium. they have expanded to 60% purity and our one technical step away from having weapons range uranium at 90% purity. under the terms of the 2015 iran nuclear deal the range enrichment was limited to about -- iran was in compliance with the deal, according to the international atomic energy agency, one in 2018 the then president, donald trump, withdrew the united states from the agreement and reinstate sanctions on iran. all of that comes as iran has formed a full-fledged defense partnership with russia. according to the white house moscow is providing tehran with, unprecedented levels of military support and expertise, along with weapons. russia has been receiving and using iranian-made self destructive bombing drones. several hundred of them in total. abc news has learned that iran

has not learn to help russia manufactured those drones on russian soil. still with me is the former national security adviser, john bolton. he is a former united states ambassador for the united station under george bush. he is not want to be shy when it comes to his views on foreign policy. ambassador, thank you for sticking with us. let's talk a little bit about the war in ukraine, how you think it is going, the american role in it, and we put 20 billion dollars into, it's so far. we are now considering giving you cream patriot missiles. that really tells the military fields against russia, so far, as it is not already tilted. is that your opinion? >> i think we have to start back in february. the u.s. and the west, as a whole family, failed to deter the invasion to begin with. i think there are a lot of lessons we should go back to their. at an appropriate time. in any event, pace post that failure. yes, we have given ukraine

considerable assistance. i think, most importantly, of all, intelligence assistant. they have used it very effectively. i think, unfortunately, into many cases, the aid has been a day late and $1 short. certainly, in favor of giving them patriot missiles, i would do more to assist them, to. i think this act of unprovoked aggression by the russians needs to be countered. not simply to defend ukraine but for the signal that sons around the world. particularly, to beijing. >> this used to be a nonstarter for republicans. i mean, it was the main starter for republicans, russian aggression. are you at all concerned that kevin mccarthy and a few republicans coming into congress have said that we should not be doing as much as we are doing? probably, we should be doing less and we are not focusing on domestic failures because so much money has been going to ukraine to fight russia? >> well, i think there is a virus of isolation within the party and i think it is a very small minority. i think it is a total non sequitur to say that we should

not be concerned about what is happening in ukraine because the biden administration is not doing things right, in some other area. there are many other problems to correct in washington, today. they should be corrected but that does not diminish the importance of what we are doing in ukraine. i think part of the problem, here, is that many of the isolationist, including the isolationist on the left with the democratic party, think that what we are doing, the assistance we are providing ukraine, is some kind of charity. that we are taking it away from america. that is not the case and i view this as something in america's direct national security interest. i think if people understood that there would be even more support for helping the ukrainians than there is already. it remains overwhelming. i think we have had a failure of political leadership, again, in both parties, for a sustained period of time. they have not treated the american public like adults. they have not addressed the problems we face and said what

we need to do to defend against it. i think the americans are oh that explanation. i think, as we have shown historically, given the facts, given the reality, we will do what is necessary to protect our interests. >> however, joe biden may go down as the president who brought americas traditionally greatest adversary to its knees. donald trump keeps on talking about other things he would have done, but donald trump is pretty chummy with russia. >> look, if donald trump were still president the russians would be in kyiv already. there is no doubt about that in my mind. actually, just for the historical record, the american president brought the soviet union to its knees, and that was ronald reagan. >> i sort of saw that coming from you. >> glad to do it. >> let me ask you about iran. you definitely did not like that iran nuclear deal. but, in fact, it was working. it was a very narrow deal. it was meant for something very, very specific. it was to control iran's nuclear weaponry aspirations.

do you worry now that we have no leverage over iran because we pulled out of that deal? iran is being able to nuclearized self and help russia in this war? >> i think you have that completely backwards. the deal was fundamentally flawed. let me address a point i heard you raise in the introduction. the deal permitted iran to enrich uranium to get a concentration of the u2 35 isotopes every after grade levels between three and 5%. that did not permit them to go to weapons-grade enrichment levels. those are 90%. that sounds like two numbers that are very far apart. they are not. when you allow enrichment of uranium to reactor grave levels of you 2:35 you are permitting the amount of work equivalent to 70%, 70%, of what it takes to get to 90% levels.

that is why when the united states leases nuclear technology for civil nuclear reactors it typically requires licensing and countries to agree not to enrich uranium and not to process plutonium. in fact, our friends in the -- united emirates, and other places, will not allow us to enrich rate uranium. but they say you have allowed the iranians. that is why they took the deal. that is why it was a mistake in 2015. it has not gotten any better with age. >> to be clear, in that deal the u.s. would have had, potentially, some leverage, hopefully, with a run. we do not have it now. iran has a more hard-line government than it did when that deal was made in 2015. do you agree with that? there are more hard-line than they were then? >> no, i do not. i do not agree with that it. all >> you do not think that the government is more hard-line than the one before? >> when you let me answer the question thank you very much? just stop talking and i will

answer the question. there is no evidence whatsoever for the last 25 years that there has been any division at the top of the iranian government to achieve deliverable nuclear weapons. whatever they are disagreeing on on theological matters, or other things, the determination, the strategic decision to get nuclear weapons, and never wavered. we lost leverage when we signed the 2015 deal by and freezing, perhaps, up to 150 billion dollars of frozen iranian assets. and by releasing the sanctions. that is when they were free. then, not only to continue to engage in their nuclear weapons program, but to engage in a dramatic increase in terrorism around the middle east. this regime is a threat in multiple ways. suffering under the illusion that it helped resolve the nuclear problem, which we had not, we actually freed the iranian government up to engage

in more mischief in the middle east, and around the world. >> if i may, i just want to get clarity on this point. engaging in mischief was not part of the deal. not purifying uranium was part of the deal. and you will agree that until we pulled out of the deal that part was being adhered to by iran? >> no, i will not agree. how are you >> how are you disagreeing with this -- >> it certainly was not. because there were indications that iran was violating parts of the deal dealing with weaponization. and going to point to you is, which i guess i did not make clearly enough, the 3.6 7% limit was a mistake. it was effectively no limit at all. that is why the iranians knew it. if you go back to the early 2000s with tony blair, and the europeans, when they first started negotiating, their bottom line in 2002, 2003, was that iran would not be

permitting any enrichment, at all. when it became clear in the negotiations before 2015 that iran would not agree to a deal unless we gave in on that, the obama administration gave in. it was a stupendous mistake. we are still paying the consequences. >> all right, if you go for president, you run for president, you said it might become your problem. every single day there are ships and planes that go across the median line of the taiwan stream. it looks like a test, every single day, it looks like a test. joe biden has said some things and sometimes stands outside of official u.s. policy implying that if china goes into taiwan america will stand with taiwan. do you agree with that policy? >> well, you know, one would think that the president actually sets u.s. policy but maybe that is not sure in the biden administration. i think the defense of taiwan is a vital american national interest. again, i would say the best way to accomplish that is to create

structures that deter the chinese from attacking or from creating the pretext to try and take control of taiwan. i think we are way behind in that. i think that time may be short. i think that there are a lot of things we need to do to help prevent the attack from taking place in the first instance. but, i think we are going to have a lot of support in the region from japan, from south korea, from australia, from single poor, the whole indo-pacific is very worried about china, as we should be. time maybe sort but, i think, we can still do what we need to do. >> we are talking about iran and you mentioned france in the middle east and saudi arabia. but you continued the relationship that the united states has with saudi arabia if you are the president? >> of course. i think that any argument to the contrary is badly mistaken. i was once in moscow meeting with putin, shortly after the murder became public of khashoggi. and putin put it right on the line. he said, you know, i hear people in the united states

want to cut off the state of weapons to saudi arabia and go ahead, i will be able to sell them weapons. >> thanks for joining us this morning john bolton, a former security adviser for the united states and then ambassador to the united nations. he is the author of a room where it happened and surrender is not an option, defending america at the u.n. and abroad. all right, elon musk has reinstated most of the journalist he kicked off twitter earlier this week. how did he make that decision you ask? of course, by a twitter poll. you cannot make that stuff up. contestants ready? go! only pay for what you need. jingle: liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. moderate-to-severe eczema. it doesn't care if you have a date, a day off,

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arizona senator, kyrsten sinema, has officially filed paperwork to run as an independent. sinema final statement of candidacy with the federal elections commission on thursday, so she can run as a candidate in here is on this 2024 senate race should do decide to ultimately run for reelection. tomorrow, i'm going to talk to arguably, the most well-known independent and recent history, vermont senator, bernie sanders. we will get his thoughts on the lawmakers decision to leave the democratic party, and much more. bernie sanders, as you know, remains an independent with caucus, with democrats. that is tomorrow on velshi at 8 am eastern. stay right where you are for more. more now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting flu symptom relief. hot beats flu.

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i have been looking forward to the story all day. the world is now one step closer to dropping dirty fossil fuels, forever. thanks to u.s. scientists who announced a major scientific breakthrough, this week, in the field of nuclear fusion research. the u.s. national ignition facility, a government laugh in livermore california, made history on december 5th when it's scientists achieved a fusion reaction that produced more energy than it consumed. that is a crucial process known as ignition. scientists say that this first step means me we are mere decades away from solving the world's energy problems with a single technology that amidst zero greenhouse gas and mission. along with clean energy the fusion experiment has strong

implications for the u.s. military. it could also lead to say for testing of modern nuclear -- [interpreter] fusion is known as the holy grail of energy production. it is the same process that powers the sun and other stars. it promises to usher in a limitless source of clean energy. the process occurs won a pair of hydrogen atoms undergo forced coalition, fusing together and unleashing an enormous amount of energy. for nearly a century scientist have been trying to harness fusion power. they had yet to cross a threshold in which more energy was created by a fusion reaction than the energy used to produce it. that was until this week. that is what the department of energy, scientists, and livermore california said. they fired 142 lasers into a peppercorn sized pellet containing two forms of hydrogen atoms. the pulse of energy heeded the pellet 150 million degrees centigrade. it can pressed it with a

pressure of twice that found at the sun center. altogether the tiny plays lasted less than a billion of a second. the fused atoms released three point 15 mega jewels of energy. the number is not important but it is important to realize that that three point 15 mega jewel with about 50% more energy than had been used to heat the palate. speaking at a press conference on tuesday u.s. energy secretary, jennifer granholm, called the achievement one of the most impressive scientific feats of the 21st century. the results haven't excited the global community, particularly the private sector, and while the does not mean that this is a viable power source, the breakthrough is a big deal. it shows that the science works. earlier this year, the u.s. energy department released a decade long road map to bringing commercial fusion to electricity markets. private investors like bill gates and jeff bezos have already poured billions of dollars into companies developing commercial plates

that are powered by fusion. last, year alone, the private sector raised more than 2.8 billion dollars. that is according to the fusion in are just free association. a survey of the industry conducted by the fuse industry -- predicts that fusion energy will be commercially viable by 2040. that brings us closer to permanently ending our dependency on planet-warming fossil fuels. with me, more on this major scientific breakthrough, i'm joined by dr. cam view del. the director of the largest board in laboratory where the experiment occurred. she shares the responsibility of providing the president with an annual, institutionalist sussman of the state of a nuclear stockpile, in terms of safety, security, and effectiveness. welcome to the show. thank you for being here. congratulations on what you have achieved. >> thank you so much. it is wonderful to be here. >> my team and i tried very hard to make that explanation as accessible as we could, to people who do not study atoms and fusion. tell me what we missed their.

what is the biggest part of this discovery? >> i think the biggest part of this discovery is the long journey we have been on to control all the elements of these experiments, that are required to get to this point. you know, we take a laser that is as big as three football fields. we focus all the energy that it creates onto a target that is about that fake. this creates the conditions that are necessary to drive these reactions. and, you have to have incredibly precise delivery of that energy. you have to have targets that are perfect. you have to have them perfect in every element so that they implode, and push on the fusion pool, very slowly. you have to do it very fast without the compression beats the race and allows the heating to go very quickly. so, it is just such a remarkable marvel of science and engineering. i think you captured the of it pretty well. the number of different scales of size that are involved in this experiment our mind bending. >> yes, this is the high end of

what we say comes as not rocket science. but it is. let's talk about what the implications are for us. if this were to be able to be scaled and applied to the things that i was discussing, in the introduction, in terms of usable energy, what could happen? how could the world look different? >> the world could look very different. so, fusion uses fundamentally different processes than vision. the standard nuclear energy form that most people are coming familiar with this vision. it uses hydrogen fuel which is abundant and clean. it does not produce the kinds of waste in large quantities that a vision plan provides. it provides stable base load energy which is, really, the key for future clean energy environments. and so, if we are able to harness this process or produce these fusion reactions, at ten times a second, and capture that energy, we will have a

really great, new scheme for a power plan. >> so you are saying, you think we are able to. obviously, something was demonstrated on december 5th. something, that by the way, but the department of energy, and livermore, and a lot of people with private enterprise in the private sector, sought would be possible. are we still on that trajectory? and if we can do that what does it look like? what are the big hurdles that stand in the way of commercializing and making this available to everyone? >> we do these experiments one time a day. we can only do this so many times and fire it up. this laser is, fundamentally, built on pretty old technology. it is built on the 19 80s laser architecture. we need to really advance the state-of-the-art and use modern laser technology that can fire many times per second instead of these longtime cycles between shots. we need to make the targets simpler and cheaper. we are going to be viable for commercial fusion energy. these are very complex targets. they are complex because we have not been able to ignite them, yet. so, we really do not yet know

how to make the capabilities for the knowledge of any time now, to begin to turn the levers of any parts that were -- there is a lot of science to be gun. you can understand how to do this, more simply, and more reputedly. and there is a lot of engineering to be done to build all the systems that will be required to do this at the repetition rate that will be required for commercial fusion energy. i think it is important to remember that we have not been doing that technology development for a long time. it is not that we do not have ideas, or concepts to pursue, but we are pretty much in the early days of developing the component commercial plant. the good news from the his discoveries that the process is possible. we demonstrated the fundamental physics and how they work for calculations that suggest we will be able to get to the kinds of high games he would need to have a ply