>> coming up on t hour of a man,he kevin mccarthy can't get his act together and it's hurting his chance to be the next speaker of the house, then it might be the most important senate race of 2024. the growing challenge to kyrsten sinema's reelection

bid. and free speech for me but not for the, elon musk misunderstands the first amendment and it's hurting all of us. i'm michael steele, in for ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. this hour, we are continuing our focus on january 6th final report. nbc news reports that the panel has yet to make a decision for criminal referrals for donald trump. but it's actively considering recommending charges for insurrection. for obstructing up an official proceeding and conspiracy. all three recommendations are possible but three different sources involved in the january six committees the liberation's tell nbc news that a final call has not been made yet. more on that in just a moment. i we want to talk about republican house leader kevin mccarthy, yes, we need to talk about kevin. you've heard never trumpers?

well what about never? cabins i vowing to stick together against him. threatening his candidacy for house speaker while simultaneously tearing the gop apart. republicans men -- met rosendale, and ralph norman have made a pledge so goes one, so goes all. and mccarthy will have to flip all five of these never kevin's in order to become speaker. that's because republicans have slim house majority. mccarthy can only lose four republicans if he wants the votes for the speaker's gavel, meaning he won't get it without their support. -- >> it's no surprise then that mccarthy is getting increasingly desperate. this week, he made the unusual move of pushing the races for committee leadership spots until after the speaker's election on january 3rd. the thinking is that mccarthy

could use that as leverage to lockdown support from disgruntled members. remember, mccarthy has been on a years-long quest to become house speaker. and now, it less than three weeks before the vote that would seal the deal for him, he cannot get his own party on his side. the wall street journal editorial board put it best. quote, republicans are beginning but could not shoot straight, except at one another. they cannot even find the votes to elect the gop speaker, much less agree on budget strategy or much of anything else. joining me now is democratic congressman ted lieu of california. he is a member of the house judiciary and foreign relations committee. congressman, it is good to see you again. let's start with that speaker vote. what is your reaction to the gop disarray at this point. >> thank you, michael, right now we have democrats in a array and gop in this gray.

one reason, i think, is because of kevin mccarthy himself. i served with kevin mccarthy when we were both in california state legislature -- and many of us actually don't know what he stands for. so, for example, right after the insurrection, he spoke the truth about what happened and that donald trump was responsible. a few days later, he completely reverses course and bends the knee to donald trump. so, i think his own members are seeing that and they have -- understanding what his principles are. >> your colleague, congresswoman nancy said this week, that she would not support removing democrats from committees, a step that kevin mccarthy has vowed to take if he gets the speakers gavel. what do you make of that dissension, especially from a more moderate voice inside the republican party? >> democrats are focused on putting people in politics and

safer communities, lower costs and better paying job. jobs. and what is kevin mccarthy focused on? revenge. and if you look at his twitter account, he has penned his twitter account what he thinks is the most important thing for republicans next term. and that's hunter biden's laptop. actually, he's even more stupid than that. it is what twitter said about hunter biden's laptop. so, that is where the republican party. is revenge and what under biden said about his laptop. the gop barely holds the majority that they tried to get anything done. so, how can the democrats use this opportunity. certainly, the infighting that we see among republicans, to their advantage, in the next congress, to try to shift the way things flow. >> democrats had the best performance in midterm since mid fdr and as a result the republicans in the majority only have a sense of a five seat advantage. that's a very slim majority.

and if they cannot be unified, which we are seeing about because they cannot even get a speaker then it's going to be very hard for republicans to pass anything of the house floor, without democratic support. which means democrats have a lot more leverage in these next two years that we normally would have. >> i want to get your reaction to the goings on down in mar-a-lago. because this new york times investigation showed visitors at mar-a-lago were partying within feet of where top secret government documents were stored after donald trump left office. this is the washington post reported just last week that an outside team working with trump 's lawyers in a quarter that search had found two additional documents marked classified in a florida storage unit. so, from your perspective, how concerning is all of this? >> not only am i concerned, but i am angry. i had a security clearance before congress. i served in the united states military. anyone who has security clearance that came even close to doing what donald trump did would be in prison. and in fact, we sent a federal employee to prison earlier this year because she brought some secret documents to her hotel

room. donald trump's actions are far worse. he had documents way above the secret level at the sci, top secret, level and they were all over the place at mar-a-lago. it is an embarrassment to the united states of america of donald trump, when he cannot even get his act together and keep these documents in a classified location at a skiff. but they do have it over mar-a-lago is a federal crime. so, talk about federal crimes. nbc news is reporting that the january 6th committee is actively considering recommending three potential criminal charges against trump,

including insurrection and others. do you support those recommendations if they go forward with them? >> i do. i was a house impeachment manager for the second impeachment. i think it's hilarious that we started to identify which impeachment because a former president was just that bad. but it was very clear that in that proceeding that donald trump got people to come to washington d. c. on january 6th with the purpose of stopping the certification of the election for joe biden by congress. and so that is a federal crime. it's essentially conspiracy to defraud the united states government, an action that interferes with legitimate governmental activity. and congress certifying the electoral college results was a legitimate government activity.

and also, obstructing an official act, which, in this case was that certification, was also a federal crime. >> so, congressman, before i let you go, what would you like to see from the final january six committee hearing here and the final report? how do you think all of this should be packaged? >> so the committee members are doing a fantastic job on january 6th committee. because i'm not on the committee, i'm not going to speak for them, as to how they should vote or not vote. but i do know that whatever vote they take should be based on the best interest of the united states of america, in contrast to what donald trump ever does. >> congressman ted lieu of california, thank you very much. i appreciate you. i want to turn now to my saturday night panel, democratic pennsylvania state representative malcolm kenyatta. it's good to see you again, malcolm. david rohde, executive editor editor of the new yorker. com and msnbc contributor. and raquel willis, award-winning writer and activist. welcome to you all. glad to have you in the house tonight. so, representative malcolm kenyatta, you and i have had a chance to chat over these many months. let's start in your backyard with your reaction to the january six committee actively considering three criminal charges against donald trump, including insurrection. how do you see it? >> i see this very much in the threat of the two impeachments.

when those were done, we knew there would be an uphill battle in the senate. but it was important to lay the historical marker about what this president did. and i think this is important, responsible. in pennsylvania, actually introduced legislation in the state house to make january 6th a day of remembrance, a day of mourning for our country. if we don't recognize how sacred and how fragile our democracy is, we can lose it. you have only to look around the world, where people thought they had rock-solid democracies and now find themselves in autocracies or even worse. and so we are in a position now where we know the former president was involved in multiple crimes against his country, against our democracy and this congress has to say for now and forevermore that this is what he did, that it was illegal, and that it

shouldn't have been allowed to happen. >> so, david, the recommendations are just that, right? recommendations. at the end of the day, what do you think the justice department is going to do in response to the referrals from the committee? >> i think they will try to not do anything publicly. but i think it will increase the pressure on the special counsel jack smith and on merrick garland to make the final decision to move ahead with criminal charges of donald trump -- of the three charges -- obstructing an official proceeding -- that seems to be the clearest case in terms of encouraging the mob, to storm the capital, conspiring to defraud the u. s. government. that seems to be focused on this effort to have fake electors, to have these alternate slate -- quote unquote alternate,

completely false electors, trying to, essentially, steal the presidential election -- i think insurrection would be a more difficult charge to prove in court in that you would need an element of trump himself. one of the things that helps him is, remember, he wanted to go storm the capital but the secret service stopped him. that actually helps him lead the fact that he didn't enter the capital -- legal case against insurrection. but i want to recognize what we just said. this was extraordinary. we are talking about a past president of the united states being referred to the investigative investigated for insurrection against the government. it's just unprecedented. >> it is unprecedented. and raquel, au do you see it? what do you think the committee's final hearing report -- the impact it will have, certainly, with the public --

>> i definitely agree that if we hear accountability being made about what occurred on january 6th, then it will definitely serve as that marker, as representative kenyatta said. and -- a statement that we will not be tolerating the political violence that has continued to be stoked in the wake of january 6th. of course, the lgbtq+ community in particular is still steaming from what happened at colorado springs. and i think, for communities on the margins, it's very important for us to hear the message that our country, our government, will not tolerate this political violence. >> appreciate that. i will ask the panel to stay right there. because, coming up, my take on senator sinema's defection from the democratic party. but first, richard louis is here with the headlines. hey, richard. >> hey, michael. some of the stories we are following right now. ftx founder sam bankman-fried is expected to -- arrested in the bahamas justice. week he will face multiple charges if he returns to the u. s., including fraud and money

laundering. an update now on the man accused of last month's mass shooting at a colorado lgbtq+ club. a judge in the 2021 kidnapping case involving the same suspect -- one shooter could be planning violence. judge robin cheatham of el paso county warned that the suspect may be stockpiling weapons and planning a shoot out. and surely eckhart, the singer songwriter who wrote songs for cher enablers has died. she found lasting fame after writing bonnie rates hit something to talk about. she was 66 years old. there's more ayman right after the break. an just a car. (vo) through the share the love event, subaru retailers have supported over seventeen hundred hometown charities. (phil) have i witnessed and seen the impact of what we do? you bet i have. (kathryn) we have worked with so many amazing causes and

made a difference. (vo) by the end of this year, subaru and our retailers will have donated over two hundred and fifty million dollars to charity. (brent) it's about more than just selling cars. >> one week after announcing (phil) the subaru share the love event going on now.

that she has left the democratic party to become an independent, senator sinema has already filed a statement of candidacy with the federal election commission for

possible 2024 senate run, noting that her party affiliation is now independent. senator sinema has yet to formally announce a reelection bid but this makes it easier for her campaign to fund-raise so, where does this leave kyrsten sinema supporters, who backed her 2018 democratic campaign? one former kyrsten sinema supporter told the atlantic, quote, she made an idiot out of me and i made an idiot out of the people i spoke to. but i, for one, have not been that surprised by the senators move, quite frankly. and you have some local arizona reporters, including ron wright's nick of 12 news, the nbc news affiliate in mesa, arizona, where he had this to say to chuck todd last week on meet the press now. >> this was an inevitable move. she has been going in this direction for at least the last decade, i believe, since she won her seat in congress in

2012. >> let's bring back our panel. so, representative kenyatta, i just read a former sinema supporter saying that the senator made an idiot out of her. as a politician, how do you read that? how do you see and hear when a person says that, a supporter says that? >> let me say this. as a politician, i see this as what it is. it's about politics and it's not about some particular principle that the senator is holding. listen, at the end of the day, the senator can be a member of whatever party she wants to be a member. of the question is, what is she delivering for the people of our zone. and i think we have seen this

in the polling and certainly we know it's even in places like arizona. most americans don't believe and most arizonans don't believe that we should be doing everything we can to stand up for the wealthiest and well connected, most well connected. most of them believe that people should pay their fair share. and yes, the democratic party is able to deliver some of that in the inflation reduction act. but there is a lot more that we needed to do in terms of carried interest and other things. and these are substantive issues that the senator was the person who blocked these efforts. and so i don't know if being an independent makes her better able to deliver for her wealthy donors. but the question for me and for people in arizona, i assume, is, are they going to be able to deliver for them? and i see this as more of a

stunt than a substantive policy exercise. >> so, david, on the flip side of the stunt, do you see the point that arizona reporter brian raz nick, is making, that this was senators senator kyrsten sinema's pat all along? >> i guess i can see that from her voting record. she frustrated the democrats. she's going to have less power now, in the senate, where the democrats have 51 votes instead of 50. so, i guess, maybe she thinks this is the only path you think she has to win. but in a democratic party, in a three-way race, representative reuben gallego, a democratic progressive house member, there is part top of him running, potentially, as a democrat -- i think in a three-way race, in arizona, given how tight the races were in the midterms, that could help republican win this senate seat -- so, yeah, maybe it's, again, kyrsten sinema thinks this is the only way she can hold the seat.

but it is a real problem for democrats. because i do think a three-way race helps republicans in arizona. >> raquel, in a recent interview, senator sinema was asked if changing her party affiliation would impact democrats and a majority, which we have alluded to. would which she then dismissed by saying, then, quote, it's a decision to worry about? -- to vote for john fetterman in pennsylvania and raphael warnock in georgia? because it is a d. c. thing to worry about. >> well, i think it's very unfortunate. but you know her statement. but it definitely shows what he actually thinks about her constituents. if you think she is acting and speaking over their best interests, that they maybe don't have the capacity to understand her political maneuvering. but i think all of us are seeing very clearly who she is. i think she is a testament to how a title does not always tell us what a person's values are. and how is she actually going to show for folks when she is pulling a bit of a bait and switch? so, i think it's very unfortunate. when i think about the filibuster, how she could not be counted on on that, that's a

perfect example of how her constituents have really not been able to count on her and will continue to not be able to count on her. >> raquel, you get the code of the night for me so far. a title does not tell us you a person's. in my years of politics that is so true. on that point, representative kenyatta, congressman ruben guy ego says that substantive subsequent democrats have been urging him to run against kyrsten sinema in 2024 and that he has not made a -- used by the fetterman and warnock campaigns. what are your thoughts on possible gallego challenge and what would be some of the ramifications for the democrats in terms of holding the senate in 2024, especially given what date to david noted about the problem of splitting that vote in arizona? >> i would say, as if holly auto bynum reported it, it's probably true.

i would also say, congressman guy a go is a example of someone who does stand up for arizona. i don't think anybody in congress who knows his record or who knows him knows that he is a straight down the line vote for democrats every time. what he is is a vote for the people of his district. and i think what we see from him is somebody who is willing to stand up for the things that democrats have achieved for working families in congress. and he is the type of person that, i would think, i would be happy to see, as part of the democratic caucus. because somebody who has fought hard for working families, for democratic values, is not taking every moment to try to make it about them.

he's making it about the people who desperately need government to work. and that's what you wanted an election official. and that's what i see in the congressman. >> all right, panel, i will ask you to stick around. because up next, the texas attorney general is requesting the private information of members of the lgbtq community. we are going to get into that more after that. so every day, you can say... ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. moderate-to-severe eczema. it doesn't care if you have a date, a day off, or a double shift. make your move and get out in front of eczema with steroid-free cibinqo. not an injection, cibinqo is a once-daily pill for adults who didn't respond to previous treatments. and it's proven to help provide clearer skin and relieve itch fast. cibinqo continuously treats eczema

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♪ ♪ >> to the politicians and activists who accused lgbtq people of room and children and being abusers, shame on you. as leaders of our country, it is your obligation to represent all of us, not just the ones you happen to agree with. hate speech turns into hate action and actions based on hate almost took my life from me at 25 years old. >> that was michael anderson. that brave young man survived the club q attack and spoke truth to power this week, calling out bigotry before the house oversight committee during a hearing on the recent surge in anti lgbtq violence. and only did hate crimes spike in 2022. but hateful rhetoric and discriminatory policies also took center stage within scores of republican-controlled state

houses. that with me as my satellite panel. raquel willis, i want to start with you on this one. what's your reaction to the news that texas attorney general ken paxton saw state that on the number of transgender people in the state? he has compiled information on more than 16,000 individuals. what are we to make of this? >> i think it is very concerning, even just the -- the that general paxton has been trying to curtail the rights of trans youth and trans people in general. but of course, also, was very much involved with trying to put forward this idea that supporting or being affirming of young trans people was child abuse. so, we have seen this

throughout this year that ken paxton has it out for the community. and that's very concerning, that they would be collecting this data. because we can pretty much guarantee that it would not be used for positive reasons. and i think it's also just very devastating that we continue to see these attacks against the community writ large. whether it's on the cultural front, where we have figures like a j. k. rolling or dave chappelle or even elon musk, just last week saying ridiculous things about trans people, to what is happening, obviously, with our politicians, like ken paxton and so on -- i really have my heart out there for trans youth in this time. because it's a very different landscape than it was for me when i was in my youngest year, starting this younger transition. >> representative, raquel

willis kind of lays out the -- there. my guess my question for you is, what is it about this year in particular that seems to have ginned up so much hate against members of the lgbtq community? >> i just want to give raquel, quickly, her flowers. she's one of the most important voices in this nation not only for trans folks but folks in the lgbtq community. i will say this. if there are folks who believe that there is a political benefit to these hateful attacks, i'm here to tell them they are wrong. on this issues of treating people with respect and dignity, we are the majority and we are ruling. america is a better place when it is fair. and to see these people, like general paxton use the government as a bludgeon against people, to try to identify people on the list, to do god knows what with, is proven yet again that all the things they march about, say they care about, freedom, america, our values -- this is not american values.

this is not freedom, they say that if you are not a part of my cult, then you don't have a place in america. if you don't believe like i believe, you don't have a place in america. we have that place and you cannot disappear the lgbtq community. we are here, we are going to win. and i think it's about politics as well as bad policy. >> on that idea of bad politics versus bad policy, and certainly what the representative said about a political benefit, david rohde, there certainly has been an increase in, quote unquote, acceptance of the lgbtq community in the last two decades in this country. so, what are your thoughts as to why republicans have leaned so heavily into these attacks? and quite honestly, found success with them? >> it baffles me. because i think extremism -- the kind of cultural more extremism that the republicans ran on in 2020 -- legalize gay marriage.

so, i agree with representative kenyatta that this makes no sense to me politically. maybe it appeals to ken paxton 's base. but america is sort of -- this is not the country, i think, most voters support. again, that was very clear in the midterms. this is just cynical politics. it is using hate and fear to try to get votes. and i don't think it works. i was surprised at the midterms. but it was such a clear repudiation of far-right extremism. so, if republicans choose to follow this, i think it is a very bad political choice on their part, based on what we just saw from american voters. >> i tell take raquel, david's point. it makes sense, in a theoretical sense and in a political sense as well. but the reality of it is, the response that people have very, very different, and somehow very personal. so my question for you is, do you think there's a need for the lgbtq community, and particularly activists, to adapt their messaging around trans issues? i mean, there is really clear messaging on some things, but not others.

so, for example, marriage equality, saying love is love, is a powerful, simple message to understand, right? how can i say -- well, you don't love him, or you don't love her? i don't get to control that. because love is love. it seems like this is an opportunity to do something very simple similar. easy messaging around trends matters and issues that can help change the way people perceive the community and understand it -- what are your thoughts there, to sort of helping to break the stranglehold of negativity that has been pushed out by far-right bigots and so forth? >> well, i definitely see your point. i have the benefit of studying journalism. and i definitely believe that our words, our stories, our organizing tools -- and i also am very aware that, i think, our general public, unfortunately, has not been, often, exposed to the experience of trans people. i think when we discuss lgbtq+ a quality, what we often mean is a quality for cisgender gay and lesbian people who, in many

ways, had a big head start before other folks within our community. you know? so, i think we are talking about some different things here. but i will say, i think that what i hope to impart to folks when i discussed my experience as a black trans woman, is that i understand that my experience may not be the most common experience. i understand that folks may not understand what it means to be assigned a different gender at birth and for me to be a woman now. but i do think that everyone can understand what it means to be counted out, to not be heard, to be told that we aren't who we say we are. i think that we have an issue around discussing gender in important, complex ways, that all the ways that we restrict how men are we supposed to move to world move through the world, whether they are sister trans, how women are supposed to move to the world, whether they are cis or trans -- our nonbinary community, as well, getting all these jokes about pronouns, when there is -- gender experience and we have got to figure out how we

respect each other and allow each other to live, love and chart our own destiny is the way that we observe. >> we are going to put an exclamation point on raquel's point right there. panel, please stick around. they're -- a one-man negative headline machine. gender experience and we have got to figure out how we respect each other and allow each other to live, love and chart our own destiny is the way that we observe. >> we are going to put an exclamation point on raquel's

point right there. panel, please stick around. coming up, our worst headline of the week. a one-man negative headline machine. machine. wow! what'd you get, ryan? it's customized home insurance from liberty mutual!!! what does it do, bud? it customizes our home insurance so we only pay for what we need! and what did you get, mike? i got a bike. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪holiday music playing♪ let's go! ♪♪ mom, let me see your phone. ♪♪ ♪♪

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so, you can both stay comfortable all night. save $1,000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed, queen >> it's time now for the last now only $1,999. ends thursday. worst of the week of 2022. usually, when ayman does this segment, he compares to equally awful people and then our panel picks who is worse. but this week, we are doing something different. for this year's final installment, we are going ahead early and picking the winner -- or loser, if you will. quote unquote, free speech warrior elon musk. this week, the new twitter ceo banned multiple tech journalists, including cnn's donie o'sullivan, and the washington post drew her well. musk accused the journalists of doxxing his location. but in reality, the journalists were merely reporting on musk's banning of twitter accounts

that tracked and share the location of his private jet. information, by the way, that is publicly available -- following massive backlash from media outlets and twitter users of all political stripes, musk set up a twitter poll to ask when the journalists should be reinstated on the platform. when a majority voted for their immediate return, musk, in what you can only call as a -- republican move, wanted to do over. once again, the majority voted for the immediate reinstatement. as of today, most of those reporters accounts have been reinstated, except for one. that account belongs to linette lopez at business insider, who has been investigating musk's business practices for years. lopez told the daily beast that she nearly tweeted about the private tracker and has not received an explanation as to why she has been banned. meanwhile, musk has been welcoming back actual

controversial figures on twitter, like my pillow ceo mike lindell, who celebrated his return by, get this, calling for voting machines to be melted down. now, there is a twitter thought. and because elon musk has skin as than as donald trump's, when independent journalist barry weiss, who musk had -- twitter filed reports, criticizes reporters fans, musk attacked her and then unfollowed her on twitter. but wait, there is more. because there is always more with musk. musk has reportedly stopped paying rent at twitter's offices and has been telling staff not to pay vendors. there you go, that will fix you. and it seems he started linking to qanon, tweeting a rabbit emoji, which the extremist emoji has adopted as its own. musk has mocked the idea that the emoji means anything. but qanon supporters seem to think he is sending a message

loud and clear. and that is all just happened this week. look, elon musk, now you get why we only have one contender for worst of the week. more with the panel after this -- them all. for over 120 years, mercedes-benz vans have been built, upfitted and ready to go. because we believe dreams - should never stay that way. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control.

now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala. >> elon musk may claim to be a

champion of free speech. but his twitter bans show he has zero understanding of the first amendment. after he attacked apple for changing their advertising plans on the platform, i had to explain to him -- quote, the first amendment applies to actions by federal, state and local governments, not privately owned entities like twitter. apple may not like the tenor of the speech on this platform

since you bought it and is free to go elsewhere. in other words, the first amendment don't apply here. let's bring back the panel. so, representative malcolm kenyatta, how can musk claim to be such a free speech warrior when he is engaging in these anti speech bands? >> the free speech absolutist -- you know, the emperor has no clothes. he never cared about free speech. this was about whether or not he could have a platform that embraced hate speech. and we need to understand, there's two very different stories here. there is the unserious story of yet another billionaire with interesting proclivities, who says things that are off the charts and does it to get attention. that's the and serious out of this. but the serious side is what you talked about in the end, which is his embrace of qanon and these conspiracy theories, who not only push lies about our democratic system and our elections, but who are, in large part, to blame for the anti-lgbtq, the antisemitic,

the islamic phobic islamophobia, the -- this is driven by folks like nick fuentes and others, kanye west, his good friends. and this has real implications for the health of our democracy and for the safety of elected officials, the safety of individual citizens. i just re-tweeted something about a 63-year-old jewish man who was attacked in a park and said, kanye 2024. this is someone who elon musk let back on to his platform, knowing that he embraced the sort of hateful language. and that is the serious part of this. and we, as a people, have to figure out how we are going to deal with billionaires buying up the public domains for

exchange and using them to embolden and lift up the worst impulses of the american people. so, david, musk briefly spoke with several tech journalists on a twitter spaces stream before abruptly leaving. he just got up and left after being revealed grilled on the reporter bans. twitter spaces was lever later shut down for several hours after that. it kind of feels like there was an obvious trump comparison going on here. what are your thoughts? >> i think that he does not quite understand. we are sitting here -- we are lucky to be speaking to a large audience of people, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. i work at the new yorker. when we publish a story, all of us faced the challenge of defamation lawsuits. and if we smear someone and defame them, they can file lawsuits against us. and right now, dominion voting system has filed a 1. 6 billion dollar defamation lawsuit against false fox news, because of false stories there, that caused death threats to dominion voting systems employees. so, this world that he thinks

exists of free speech, he does not understand. it all media organizations have the threat of libel lawsuits and defamation lawsuits. we have a fact checking department at the new york times. so, speech has consequences. and i agree, again, with representative kenyatta, hate is incredibly dangerous. hate causes violence. and maybe he will learn. but it's just been an incredibly disappointing tenure so far by elon musk. >> it raises a number of interesting questions for me, raquel. one of them is the fact that it looks like musk is essentially turning twitter into truth social two point oh. it's this kind of -- oh, you whacked out crazy, right wing, segregationist, nationalist types, hang out with me and bring your pillow. what do you think is going on here? it is something more than profits. because it ain't profits. that's how not how you make a profit, doing what he's doing. am i missing something? >> you didn't miss something. i thought you were going to make up my pillow joke. but you didn't. and that's okay. [laughter] >> [laughter] >> but i want us to be clear. i think there's a way that we

talk about -- that he is some little boy that doesn't know what he is doing. this is a grown blank man. he knows exactly what he is doing. and he is definitely basking in his privilege. and when i hear about all of this discussion of free speech, i hear often from people like elon that they want to be able to and act their hate, their ignorance without any repercussions. they don't want to be held accountable. because accountability is something that is stifling to them. it threatens their power. and so, from my experience on twitter, even before elon was in the twitter, it was very difficult to be a person on the margins. it was difficult to be a black woman and be faced with white supremacists, whether they were in a flash like real people, or bought farms, to be faced with trends misogynists and transphobic and queer foams and antisemites and all these different folks. it was always difficult to be on the margins and it's just worse now because elon is emboldening this. and i think part of that is that he is, basically, a new

age rupert murdoch. let's be really clear about this. it's about making sure that the general public does not have access to facts, because when you are an informed, you can be swayed any which way. you can be turned against any type of person who is different from you. and how we fight this is that we continue to speak up. but we also continue -- those of us who have the privilege or platform -- to push alternatives. i love that people are having more discussions about, okay, well, we will we go if this completely goes down in flames?

or, i am going to continue to fight truth to power, even when it is difficult, even when i might get my account locked or kicked on -- i mean, i might not be on twitter after saying all of this. let's be clear. >> [laughter] i think we all need to check our counts after this one. i want to thank all of you so much for being a part of the conversation tonight. it really helped us understand a little bit better about each other and what we need to be focused on. pennsylvania state representative malcolm kenyatta, david rohde and raquel willis, i thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you for making time for us, by the way. come back tomorrow night at eight eastern on msnbc, i will be joined by representative gerry connolly and and the kuster and we will discuss can trump's continuing hold on the

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