>> as always, i'm thinking you for watching the katie phang show. velshi starts right now. right now. >> today on velshi, as the january six committee huddles this weekend to vote on criminal referrals, i take you on a tour of all the investigations that are closing in on the twice impeached vice president. later in, they show talking about the new congress, working with republicans. the 2024 presidential race, and. more in breaking down roe v. wade wasn't enough. the disturbing new tactic that the antiabortion movement has deployed, to make it even harder to access abortion in this country.

velshi starts now. good morning, this sunday december. 18th i'm ali velshi. tomorrow will be the january six committee's final public hearing ahead of releasing a full final report on the insurrection. the committee has done meticulous work of piecing together what happened in the weeks leading up to january six. during a riveting series of public hearings this, year those hearings gave us an inside look at the work the committee was doing to uncover the extent to which donald trump was willing to go in a desperate bid to cling to power. and while the january six committee will come to an end to the couple of weeks, donald trump's legal problems. one the twice impeached disgraced ex president is the focus of multiple investigations and multiple jurisdictions, which will continue into the new era. taking a closer look at the legal peril that he faces. let's begin right here in, new york where donald trump's business practices have been

under intense scrutiny into supporting best occasions over the past few years. just 12 days ago, the trump organization was convicted on 17 counts of criminal tax fraud stemming from the company's tactics of giving up perks to its executives, while paying taxes on none of. them this is the result of a criminal investigation that began in 2018, with the then district attorney -- he is the man on the left. here when vance chose not to run for reelection, he was succeeded by alvin bragg, who brought this case to trial against the trump organization this fall. an important figure here is the trump organization's chief financial officer, allen weisselberg, who was invited on tax fraud charges last year. weisselberg's case did appear to be heading to trial, but reached a plea deal with prosecutors in august, requiring him to give crucial testimony in brags, case against the trump organization.

even though a conviction was reached in this case, this not affect donald trump personally. backs cases against the trump organization, not against donald trump the individual. sentencing is scheduled for january 13th. it is expected that the trump organization will be made to pay a financial penalty. because it is not a publicly traded company, the maximum penalty that faces as one point $6 million. that is a drop in the bucket. but the other new york case could have other serious consequences. in, september the new york state attorney general letitia james filed a civil lawsuit against donald trump, the three oldest children don junior, ivanka and eric. and the trump organization. james accuses them of, fraud and of deceiving lenders and insurers, by routinely over valuing their assets for insurance, and borrowing purposes. undervaluing the pretax purposes. james has been investigating the trump organization's in 2019. she also deposed donald trump

this summer, during which he pled the fifth more than 400. times she is seeking a harsher penalties, including banning all four of them from running a business in new york state, ever. again she also wants to see trump's from their company, replacing them with an independent monitor who ran the business. additionally, she wants to buy them from acquiring real estate in new york for five years. meanwhile, 700 miles away in georgia, fulton county district attorney's fani willis is conducting a grand jury investigation, related to the effort to interfere with and overturn the results of the 2020 election, and that. stay willis began her investigation about two years, ago shortly after donald trump's infamous phone call to georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger. during that call, trump implored raffensperger to find the 11,780 votes that he needs to win the state. willis's investigation, by the, way is also looking at the georgia fake elector ski.

which may donald trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, a target of an investigation. and, possibly also john eastman. the pro trump republican who served as the fake elector. they granted jury in georgia has pursued the testimony of other key trump allies. like south carolina centerline z graham, trump's former chief of staff mark meadows. and trump's former national security adviser, michael thin. all of whom were ordered to cooperate in the investigation. it is unclear right now where donald trump fits into this case, but we can find out pretty soon. the grand jury there is winding down its investigation, has begun writing its final report. that gets us one step closer to finding it what charges fani willis might pursue. then of course there -- is the january six. investigation or just days away from releasing its own final. apart tomorrow afternoon, the group is going to hold its own final hearing during which it is expected to announce its decision on legislative recommendations and criminal

referrals. according to nbc news sources, the committee is not made any final decisions. yet but members are actively considering recommending three criminal charges against donald trump, one for conspiracy to defraud the government, another for obstruction of an official proceeding of congress, and a third for insurrection. the january six committee is just an investigative group, as. you know whatever criminal referrals at the side situation hold no legal weight. in and of themselves. ultimately, the decision in the power to make indictments rests with the department of justice. which is conducting its own separate parallel investigation of the insurrection. attorney general merrick garland has previously called it the most wide-ranging investigation in the apartment history. that investigation is now being led by the special counsel, jack smith. smith is also in charge of the criminal investigation into trump's improper handling of classified government records. the government spent, months you will, recall trying to approve records from trump

before the fbi finally conducted a search of mar-a-lago. recovering dozens of boxes of documents. and a search warrant, government cited three laws. the espionage act, obstruction, and concealing or destroy government documents. as the basis for their investigation. these are the main ongoing trump investigations that we are continuing to keep our eyes on. to discuss, them joining me now are two of the brightest legal minds we have. joyce vance is a former united states attorney. and a professor at the university of alabama law school. [interpreter] -- it's also a former united states attorney and professor at the university of michigan law school. they are both coasts of the sisters in law podcast, and msnbc legal analyst and friends of the show. getting up at this hour to do, tv you have to be in front of the. show good morning to both of you, thank you for being with. us joyce, let me just start with. you this insurrection, matter even augustus to the other day, it is a big deal. because in theory, depending on how you read the constitution,

and you are charged with, this and you are convicted of it you can't hold office. from a lot of our viewers the biggest concern is donald trump, presently and states again. other saying that you cannot see qualify somebody for running for office, even if they're charged. what's your take on this? >> so, it is an interesting situation because there is no mechanism for enforcing this provision that removes people, who were involved in insurrection for future office. we don't know what that requires. does it require conviction? is it somehow self executing? the real problem here is that congress has never put some sort of a legal mechanism in place. and even if they were to do, that right now, it would be a little bit. late there will be extensive tests and a pellet provision. while this is something that makes a lot of sense, right, no one who is involved in an insurrection should be able to turn around and warm their way back into government. by the same token, it is

unlikely to be a particularly helpful provision in this instance, no matter how much sense it makes. >> barb, there are two articles. article two, section one of the constitution. which determines who can run for president. and the 14th amendment, that says if you are involved in an insurrection, you can't hold office. you also point out that there is the first amendment, and that is what donald trump will use in his defense, most. likely let's give it a fiery speech. that's what i do. that is protected speech. if the government to charge him with insurrection, they're going to have to prove that it was more than his speeches or tweets. >> yes. and that's, why i think, ali, there is a difference between making the referral for the crime, especially this, crime and actually choosing to prosecute it. if you look at the language of the statute, it simply makes it a crime to incite insurrection. and frankly, i think the evidence shows that is exactly what donald trump did. he was on the, ellipse he was

telling people to fight like. how you're not to have a country anymore. marched on pennsylvania avenue. you all those, things i think, do contribute to a finding that he absolutely incited insurrection. as you, pointed out the first amendment puts a very high bar between prosecution and free speech. that's because we want to encourage people to speak their minds when it comes to politics, especially. which is a very high level of protection. people talk about fighting for your rights all the time. and i think there is one phrase that donald trump tossed in there, whether it was an added by steven or somebody else, where he used the word peacefully. and i think he would point to that to show, i had no intention of actually inciting anything, here. the test of the court has said came in called brandenburg versus ohio, which says the government may not prosecute somebody for political speech, unless they intend to incite eminence, lawless action, and that the speech has the result of causing that imminent

lawless action. that would be the. test i think that is a close call. and prosecutors, especially when you're facing somebody like a former president, i think are going to shy away from untested legal serious. >> however, joyce, this is something that liz cheney comes to the. what. it doesn't actually rely on whether or not donald trump incited violence or didn't. there were superseding the disposed to occur, a lawful person even supposed to take place, which looks to run as president. and donald trump tried to obstruct that proceeding. having the peaceful peace will become a relevant when there is an actual charge at the department justice wishes to pursue? >> in many ways it is a step down charge. barbara's absolutely right about the difficulties involved in charging insurrections. there's a lot of circumstantial

evidence here. trump does nothing in terms of a long period of time, we are rioters or over running the capitol. but that is a very difficult ascendant. and prosecutors have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. it is and not a situation where the target is to the runner. the charge that you are talking about which is the midpoint here. interference with an official proceeding, it seems likely sort of charge that prosecutors might be far more likely to believe they could convict beyond a reasonable doubt. because so much of trump's conduct was public. so much of it was on videotape. so many conversations leading up to january switch six, including the entirety of his perpetuation of the big lie. there is an entire trajectory of eminence here that could be used. it doesn't mean it is important to say the trump would be without defenses. and again, we've all talked exhaustively about the fact that trump would point to his sincere and legitimate belief

that he had won the election, and that there was fraud and prosecutors would still have to overcome that. but it seems to be less heavy of a lift in the insurrection charge on the evidence, here. >> barbara, i want to point to the trump prediction, everybody says big deal. it's not him personally. it's the, company is the maximum fine. 1.6 million. dollars allen weisselberg made a consequence. i want to say that joyce wrote the other, day in, substack when she said the bubble of visibility because i was doing to protect trump's criminality burst today. you wrote in an msnbc opinion piece on december 7th, that for one thing it achieved some measure of accountability, and sends the message that some traitors, at least, are eventually you both seem to think, barbara, that there is consequence to this funding with the trump organization. >> absolutely. i think that the conviction in prosecutors. even when he's talking about resuscitations against donald trump, he had this cloak of

invisibility which caused him to say, i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue in straight, somebody and not losing supporters. it kind of seems true that he could beat all the odds, in part because of his popularity. in part because of his willingness to put this information. i think prosecutors wondered whether you could ever find a group of 12 strangers who could find, beyond a reasonable doubt, unanimously, that donald trump was guilty of a crime. i think this case shows that absolutely, they. can in fact, they found in a pretty short order. you convinced the company of 17 accounts, and they did it within about an hour or so. i think that that will embolden prosecutors to realize that convictions can be made against the trump organization, and trump himself, the prosecutor argued in closing arguments, the donald trump sanctioned fraud. so i think that gives hope for the prosecutors. >> both, if you think this morning for helping us understand where we are. joyce, vance barbara kate are both former united states

attorney and msnbc legal analyst. both co-host of the sisters in law podcast. we're gonna continue to dissect all the details of the trump investigations, including a breakdown of what you need to know what the january six committee's plans for tomorrow's historic. meaning plus, senator bernie sanders joins the show. he will help us understand what to expect from the incoming congress, including the committee he is decides to lead, and they terrifying new tactics that the antiabortion movement is deploying, that could further restrict abortion access across the country. and cut off the safest alternative for women. who are already living under abortion bans. that's coming up on velshi. on velshi with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy.

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america who does not feel the same overwhelming grief than i do. and the majority of folks who died today were children. beautiful little kids between the ages of five and ten years old.

they had their entire lives ahead of, them both face and graduations. weddings. it's a veteran. kids of their own. among them were also teachers, men and women who committed their lives to helping children fulfill their dreams. >> president barack obama wiping a single tear from his eye, joining in the nation's grief over the murder of 20 children and six educators in the sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. president obama calls december, 14th 2012 the darkest day of his presidency. the weeks and months following the massacre were also a challenge. for, once the by the administration works to pass gun reform, a bipartisan bill to expand federal background checks, something that has long had overwhelming bipartisan

support among the american public. only to see that bill die on the senate floor. president obama's tears were replaced with animosity, over the senate's failure to act on a life or death piece of legislation. >> families that no unspeakable grief, summon the courage to petition their elected leaders. not just to honor the memory of their children, but to protect the lives of all of their children. a few minutes ago, the minority in the united states senate decided it was not worth it. they blocked a common sense gun reforms, even while these families walked on from the senate gallery. >> you probably knew the future president the united states standing behind obama. at the time, vice president joe biden was tapped to lead the administration's efforts to pass that very bill. his efforts were defeated. ten years, later though, president joe biden leaves the

same nation with the same gun problem. this year, another mass shooting in an elementary school reopened the wounds that were still healing from sandy hook. 19 children and two teachers that in their classrooms at robb elementary school. and uvalde, texas. according to the gun violence archive, there is been a 611 mass shootings in the u.s. this, year alone. making 2020 to the second worst year for gun violence, since 20. 13 the archive defines a mass shooting as four or more victims shot, either injured or killed, in a -- event. it is easy to feel like nothing has changed, or like things have gotten. or's but the truth is better than that. this, here congress has passed their first federal gun safety law in decades. the legislation includes incentives for states to pass so-called red flag, loss and background checks. the bill provides a narrow set of gun safety measures, but it is still the most significant step toward strengthening federal gun laws in 30 years.

what is arguably more impressive is what is going on in the state level. a new report by the giffords law center to prevent gun violence, led by gabby giffords and who survived a shooting herself in 2011, found that 525 significant gun safety laws have been adopted on the state level in the decade since sandy hook. according to the report, nearly 700 states in the nation of passed a significant gun safety law in the past ten. years 21 states pass community violence intervention. which includes laws that direct funding to community centered programs and build relations between residents, social services and law enforcement. 37 states took up domestic violence prohibitions and 20 states embraced red flag protection measures, which allow authorities to temporarily remove weapons. people who may be a threat to themselves or others, until a judge adjudicate the issue. 29 states and background checks,

18 states approved laws giving children and young adults marxist firearms. it also found that gun deaths rose 46% in the five states with the week's gun laws. and rose 7% in the seven states with the strongest gun laws. so it has been quite the decade for america's gun policy. when joe biden was taxed with passing the federal gun legislation in 2012, and undertaking the accomplished ten years later, he took on another role. one equally as important as passing legislation. then, vice president biden held dozens of calls. families of the sandy hook -- mike barton, whose son daniel was killed at sandy hook elementary, tells politico that to this day he stores the advice that joe biden gave him at the time. which was, quote, keep a notebook on his bedside table. and each night, grab a pen and write the day on a scale of 1 to 10. he recalls biden telling him,

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things were looking, got a good outlook. u.s. secretary janet yellen told 60 minutes there would be a major inflation cooldown next year, citing punching gas, prices a decrease in shipping costs, and shorter delivery. lags on, tuesday we got some numbers to backup. yellen's statement saying that

inflation was going to be lower seem to. bad but inflation on tuesday was announced to be lower than expected in a, november you consumer price index which was a key inflation barometer showed that prices were up 7.1% from a year ago. that is a lot. it is lower than a 7.7% back in october. on wednesday the federal reserve unascertained christine its benchmark interest rate by half a percentage point, which again is big. but until then, it had been increasing worries at three quarter percentage point of every opportunity. class four times. interest rates are now at their highest in 15, years and even they are going up at a slightly slower rate than they. were the feds moved increasing lee, increasing the cost of borrowing and investing. when consumers and business loans are more expensive, they spend less, money demands decreases, and that helps to tame inflation. that was all the relatively good news. and then there was thursday. that's where we got some troubling news with retail sales. u.s. congress tomorrow reported retail sales dropped six tenths

of a percent in november, which is more than expected, especially during the holiday season. they lower than expected retail number is -- spooked investors. because consumer behavior is one of the strongest indicators of how an economy is doing. that is the gist of it. i want to get into the needy gritty at the chief of investigative media.com. he's been covering the u.s. economy for decades. talking about what i. no good to see. you the fed interest rate hikes have been going on for a while. who is leveling 15 years, the only question is -- >> victor poisonous what the friday. say hi inflation which is very difficult, especially for lower income families or high interest rates. look, ali. the fed interest rates this aggressively, 4.2 5%, that's not. normal 45 bass hikes, the fight is really ramping. up haven't seen that since they. 70s >> if you go back here you have some of it here in the

2000s. 75 basis points, three quarters of a percentage point at the time, doesn't feel good. >> not normal at. all they are slowing the pace of, it and probably will slow the pace of. it going into 2023. but inflation remains steady high. especially for food and shelter costs. >> let's talk. inflation 7.1. percent that is more than anybody, generally speaking, was racist. gone is much lower than what we've. saying this is the consumer price index. we're talking about the. 70s all the way back to the, 70s and 80s, where inflation was at 15%. we are not there. we are in the seventh at this point. but -- it is high. >> the fed once inflation went to. percent there is a difference between -- when the 2% on the federal reserve wants. it they keep raising rates in 2020, three or probably do it a couple more times. as you, said the interest rates put pressure on companies, just look at the housing market and all.

that lower existing sales all year long. will probably continue into 2020. three >> that's the other thing. you think ratify house, you don't buy a house all the sudden. it gets a while to get into the other parts of the. economy sometimes it takes many many months. the feds increasing rates, take a look at inflation. 9.1% in the middle of the, air now work now at 7.1%. that's good. but is there a danger that as they increase these rates, as spending slows down too much and company start letting people off, within two hour session. >> we are already hearing -- beat around because the federal reserve raises interest rates, there is usually -- before you start to feel. and it's up five or six terms already this. here will feel in 2023. that's what everybody is talking about a recession, seeing the housing market. starting to see a new car sales markets. retail sales in november, as you mention, that's unusual going into the -- wear into parts of the economy, slowing down, but not the labor

market. there's still a lot of demand for jobs, available for every worker, drops out there. >> when you have interest rates going, back to that -- kevin, the first one that we. got one of the things that happened, it were sessions do come as a result of the fed raising interest rates. they can drop those interest rates very, quickly in order to try to get us out of it. it becomes a weird waukee economy, but at least some gas and a tank. >> fed chair powell has not been lower rate in 2023. which is why i think the stock market has -- up of it is everybody talks about. they're in a keeper, tie or keep them where they are until they're gonna say that number. >> they've dropped to one point 97.2, one and two is where they want this to be. >> most of that is energy prices. as well as wiling.

gas >> it's much lower than they. work, caleb thanks 1 million for helping us through. this caleb silver is laser in chief of investigative media. still to, county latest post roe battle for reproductive rights. if you thought overturning roe was the worst anti-abortion movement that could happen, think again. think again. a new clinical study showed that centrum silver supports cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say... ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. [baby yawning]

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for the anti-abortion movement. the result of decades of. workers believe, it or not it was not the end of their battle for -- abortion rights activists are relying on to keep the new post roe era from being as dangerous and deadly for women as the time before roe is the existence of abortion pills, medicaid. abortion the thinking, was that

this time, around women living under abortion bans could turn to abortion pills rather than back alley practitioners. so, naturally the antiabortion crusaders who brought down roe are now coming for the abortion pills. now, the actual names of the medication are my so crystal my so pro stowe. according -- to the washington post, one major pill supplier in mexico estimated that her organization would help terminate 20,000 pregnancies by years, and while another europe group said that after the supreme court, decision it received roughly 3600 queries per month, with about two thirds of those coming for a moment in the united states. even before, dobbs medication abortion accounted for more than half of all abortions in the country. according to analysis by the -- institute. the impact of this war on abortion pills could reach well beyond the states where abortion is already banned. carolina kitchener's excellent reporting raced on the

strategies of the antiabortion movement is employing, here. it is a cocktail of lies, gets, it's a careful gaping of trump appointed judges. , first the far-right has filed lawsuits vocally food and drug administration's approval of the abortion pill, mifepristone, which they claim was inappropriately fast-track more than 20 years. ago the argument of this case defies years of research showing, that the medication is extremely safe and effective. safer than tylenol, apparently. despite solid evidence of the drug safety legal experts say that there is a strong chance that the court will rule against the fda, since the case was intentionally filed in texas. which is a district with a trump appointed judge. the appeals court, above, hannah is the ultimate conservative. circuit a ruling revoking the fda's approval of this drug would ban health care providers from prescribing, abortion in both red and blue states. such an outcome would lead in person surgical abortions in

those states, as the only safe and legal. option in that, events advocates worry that the few remaining clinics will be overwhelmed to the point of paralysis. a second strategy the conservatives are gearing up for would be straight out of an episode of -- the deep, where it is not so. pernicious the far-right is notorious for climate denial, and usually in favor of environmental regulation. it wants to go after abortion pills by invoking environmental laws, and water safety. get this, students leading antiabortion group plans to systematically test public, water in several of your large u.s. cities, searching for contaminants they say result from medication, abortion. this is despite the fact that environmental experts have dismissed their arguments. and there is no direct evidence that abortion pills cause any kind of wonder contamination. finally, conservative lawmakers and texas are also pushing legislation that would require internet providers to block abortion pill websites. and the same way that they censor child pornography.

based on a law where kenneth 1873. before women had the right to vote in america. a lot going on. here joining me now is caroline, kitchener the reporter behind -- she's a washington post political reporter where she covers abortion. also today's elizabeth, nash principle policy associate of state issues at the guttmacher institute. she cracks state policy and reproductive rights. good morning to both, have you thanks for being with. us there's a lot to talk about. here let me start. with you there is a, real deep history of legislators trying to restrict medication abortion. tell us a bit about that. >> what we have seen is going back, a decade, state legislatures have been trying to limit access to medication abortion. take out the tele-health, for medication abortion. that was real trouble that we saw around 2011 and 2013, when we are also seeing efforts to lead access to medication

abortion, by limiting who can provide medication abortion. we make the provision of medication abortion only to physicians, and basically blocking out folks like physician assistants, certified nurse midwives, and nurse practitioners. >> caroline -- sorry about, that go ahead. >> and, then more recently, we've really seen these efforts around limiting how medication abortion can be provided, by essentially having clinical regulations to medication abortion. so, really hammering home the message that medication abortion can't be available to people. >> caroline, the abortion pill has long been recognized as safe by groups like the world health organization. in your reporting, do these antiabortion activists believe that they can get it bans, by testing the public water system? or is this more of a political strategy to get people talking about the idea of abortion

pills, in the water. and the way to stoke fear? >> i think they certainly believe they have a chance. and if i have learned one thing it is that you should not dismiss an idea that seems a little bit out there, because the anti-abortion movement in this country has a long history of trying really unorthodox things. and having them work. so i think that there is some optimism about how this fta case and texas could break out. i do think there is some momentum around the, light protection of the environment. and we are really going to see in 2023, really, how these things play out. and whether they will have a bearing on a future medication abortion in this country. >>, elizabeth there are times as we discuss but the abortion groups to provide this controversial 1873 comes dark

laws. this is a federal law that if revised will ensure access to not only abortion, but even information about. abortion can you explain about this, law and if there is any shot of this happening? >> sure. talking about a law than 149 years old, and in the interim there of an important cases. really the abortion provision around it. the problem is that if the winds change federally, right now congress is in a mixed bag of control, the democrats have control the presidency. if all of that changes, there is a real chance that we can be seeing the law come back in force, around abortion. and particularly around abortion information. what that would mean is limiting access to information for people who share

information about abortion. facing federal penalties. the other issue here is that even by just talking about the -- there is a threat out there that people perceive information about abortion is in some way illegal. and they can scare them away from seeking out information about abortion, criminals or access to care. there is a real danger around even talking about the law, because people get an impression that this information is already unavailable. >>, elizabeth caroline, hold on for. moment i want to take a quick break and continue this conversation on the other side. r side leon's saving up for his first set of wheels... nice try. really? this leon's paying for his paint job on the spot... and this leon, as a chase private client, he's in the south of france,

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kitchener, covering. abortion elizabeth, nash principle policy associations at the guttmacher institute. she tracks state policy and reproductive rights. welcome back to both of, you you've been reporting on the state of abortion in this country for a long time. is there anything particularly alarming to you about how this debate is playing out today. compared to where was pre-dobbs? >> that is a good question. i think we really do not know where it was coming. we have to remember that it's only been six months since a

decision happened, and the state is changing so quickly. court case after court case, and law after law. i think a lot remains to be seen in 2023, about what it will actually be like to be a woman facing unexpected pregnancy in this country. and how accessible care will be. >> elizabeth, you recently wrote something in the magazine around the narrative surrounding abortion bans, focusing so much on whether there are exceptions. let me just read what you. wrote inadvertently ranking the validity of peoples reasons for seeking abortion care challenges their agency and right to bodily autonomy. in the long time this feeds into the anti abortion movements false and dangerous narratives to legitimize what people have abortions well allying abortions for anyone anywhere and for any reason. give me a little more on that. >> sure.

what we, see really, it is a statement of abortion over the decades. and what these exceptions really get that is the idea that some abortions are more appropriate, or illegitimate than others. which is just false. it's an issue that we are contending with right now, i think this really gets into the politics of abortion, too. >> in these conservative legislatures that have banned abortion or seeking abortion, we are now having this debate around abortion because these conservative legislators have to deal with their base, and their base wants an abortion ban without exemptions. with the vast majority of the american public, they support abortion rights and want to see abortion access. and these conservative legislatures, and are trying to thread this needle, so to speak, around abortion and abortion

rights and trying to pass abortion bans and trying to inflate service essentially the idea that somebody can get an abortion in a state where they're planning on getting an abortion. >> caroline, i suspect some of my viewers are pretty up on the topic and would be surprised by some of the tactics that we have some described in some of the ways in your city described the movement which has a -- with but jobs. in your, reporting to abortion rights activists, are they prepared for these tactics? why they prepared for having these as well? >> i think they, awe but it is impossible to consider what the other, side, exactly is going to do. i was certainly surprised about some of the things that came up and i was really surprised there was already an anti abortion law, texas creating a

team of investigators who set on finding people breaking these laws. that was a surprise. i do think that there will be more and more things that are increasingly restricted. as we go into the 2023 legislative sessions, as they are really start to come back. >> thank you to both of you for your time this. morning we appreciate. you caroling kitchener is a national political reporter. a principle policy associate of state issues at the guttmacher institute. straight ahead, what you need to know ahead of the january six committee's final public meeting tomorrow. plus, four months bernie sanders joins the show. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. good morning to you it is somber december the 18th 9 am in the east 6 am on the west i'm ali velshi, on wednesday

the january six committee will published its final report, which is expected to focus on the central role that donald trump played in the insurrection. the committee and its investigation has been a thorn in the twice in peach insurrectionist president side for most of the past 18 months as it publicly presented his findings. while the commission will be dissolved by years and, there are a number of other investigation for the disgraced ex president to worry about. let's start right here in new york, where donald trump's businesses have been under scrutiny in two separate investigations over the past two years. two days ago, the trump organization was convicted on 17 counts of criminal tax fraud, stemming from the company's practice of giving luxurious -- and paying no taxes on those benefits. then district attorney cyrus fan junior on the left of the screen. he decided not to run for reelection, he was succeeded by alvin bragg, who brought this