trump haters, trump lovers if there are any of those and of course the national political press corps all waiting at this hour still unbelievably ongoing despite repeated promises we would have the committee's full report in our laps yesterday and then today and now still today, we are -- don't have it. we want to get our eyes on this document, 800 pages, the unprecedented report on the insurrection at the united states capitol on january 6th. a document that could not just be the fullest accounting of what the committee did over the course of 18 months but also a road map for the department of justice in laying out its potential criminal indictments against a former president of the united states for the first time in history. we don't got it. so, we do have something else, though. we're going to talk about what we do have from the committee. but before we get to that, you can see that shot right there. we're expecting to hear from

president biden imminently from the white house's cross hall and what the administration is calling a christmas address. supposed to start right about now, not run for very long, but you never know joe biden may take questions. he has a lot to talk about as we come to the year end. presidents often before holiday break take a victory lap. joe biden has a lot to be proud of this year politically. you may hear some of that in the speech and with reporters you don't know. while we wait, we return to the major story that's been occupying our minds for the last couple days, started on monday with the last meeting of the 1/6 committee. we have been waiting to advance that story and what has happened over the course of the last 24 to 36 hours, while we've been waiting for the 800 page report. in lieu of that we've gotten a number of previously unseen

transcripts of interviews from the committee's investigation. that started coming out of the committee last night and has been trickling out over the course of time since then. the most recent release, two interviews with cassidy hutchinson, we knew her recollection was an enormous help to investigators but what we didn't know is her first lawyer tried to influence her testimony. in her first meeting she said he provided this advice, quote, the less you remember, the better. and that's just scratching the surface of what we learned. some lawyers may call that sub boarding perjury. we'll ask about that in a minute. earlier the committee released 30 other interview transcripts. the theme of those transcripts, one, i plead the fifth, two i don't recall. those are the headlines in the

transcripts. yet there are still key insights buried in the transcripts as well. so waiting for the president to speak. joining us now luke broadwater and andrew weissman, a senior member of robert mueller's special counsel. and here at the table with me, this happens every so often, ari melber host of "the beat" also the author of the forward to the official print edition of the january 6th committee's report. apparently the forward is written. >> it is written. >> the forward is written. there it is. >> it's a forward on the conspiracy, people can get it at melber book.com. people can get the report for free when it comes out on the government website. this is my breakdown of the document that this was not a one-day event. >> we're waiting for a lot here.

>> yeah. >> we had the long executive summary on monday we poured over, 160 pages, not your typical executive summary, which is usually a page or two and a few bullet points. but curious about two things just to start. one, do you have the faintest clue why we don't have the committee's full report yet? it's rare when a washington committee, one that has been as rigorous and careful and calculated in the way it's progressed as this committee has been. we've lauded it for how it conducted its business. when they have made promises in the past they generally landed on the dot. now they missed the deadline twice that they set for themselves. what's going on with that? >> it's a great question and one that distracted from what they wanted today and yesterday to be about. which is the findings they spent so long building. i think they have said publically that they are trying to finalize what is a complex

800-page document, get to the printers and back, there's a government process for that. i checked in with the printer today and that's what they continue to say. that's what they said in public. as for what is going on behind the scenes we don't have a lot of reporting on that. we know this has compromises. we know they were saying they weren't going to do criminal referrals, i remember when the majority of the members were talking that down, in the end they did that. >> luke, you're a man who's broke a lot of news on the 1/6 committee, its processes and finding. if there's anybody, one thing i'm eager to know, what is going on with the report? in my years of reporting one thing that washington has never been ill equipped to do is produce large quantities of paper, in this case they seem to be having a problem. what's happening? >> my understanding they're

still proofing it and they caught some things today they want to fix. still a chance it gets out today but given how late it's getting, there's a potential it could push till tomorrow. you know, the committee originally said the report would be done in september. so, you know, it's been several months since the original publishing goal. look, it's still a congressional committee, right. they've done many things very efficiently. they've broken new ground in terms of how to hold hearings and how deep and wide an investigation can go, but congress stills runs on like real firm deadlines and it would not surprise me if we see a friday omnibus deal and a friday release of the ways and means report and a friday release of the january 6th report. so look, we all want it today. i want to see it like you guys want to see it, 800 pages to pour through, but we have to wait longer. >> let me ask you the follow-up on the question that ari raised

a second ago. as a matter of substance there's a million teapots where people were expecting a certain thing, didn't get what they want, the press is impatient but in the end the substance trumps everything. do you think there's possibility that ari is right, at least in suggesting the possibility, that this kind of delay could in some way impede the committee, lessen the impact of it in some way that as we get closer to the holiday, this may not get the attention it deserves and that they were expecting? >> i think certainly, you know, as a congressional committee producing a report like this, you want to consider the news cycle that it lands in and the closer you get to the holidays or the weekend or friday night, that's the worst time to try to release your news. so i'm sure there's a pressure to get it out before then. that said, i think, you know, especially with this story, big news will trump, you know, the

routines of the news cycle. i can think of certain friday nights or releases, things that came out at midnight that were still bombshells and captivated the news cycle the entire next day or several days. so if the report delivers in terms of substance, i think that that will alleviate any concerns about how long it's taking to get it out. >> we'll see. i think this is becoming an interesting challenge for what the committee wants to do, which is galvanize public interest and change the equation at the doj and perhaps in other jurisdictions where prosecutors are weighing, gosh, if we indict the chief of staff of the former president or the president himself is that bad or dangerous, or dangerous not to if there's a dangerous case to do so. it's a friday news dump for a reason, you bury it on friday. the slowest friday of the year is tomorrow. >> right. it's a friday, it's headed into not just a weekend but a holiday weekend. and this is, and ari, correct me

if i'm wrong about this. no one has been promising bombshell revelations from this document. the expectation has been we'll learn important things potentially from it but the big bombshells have been part of the committee's -- >> exactly. >> -- presentation before. so this is presumably a report that the committee would benefit from people having time, the press having time to sink their teeth into it. >> you make a subtle point that is important to what they're trying to do. which is the bombshells the breaking stories they used the hearings for, we lived through that. the conclusion was the fuller accounting which is more subtle. so if i may -- >> yes, please. >> -- we're not fancy people, keep it real here but you're raising a point, how does the fact finding of the committee connect with the country and does it change how we learn what happened. again, let me say in all fairness, john. if it was a random riot where only the militias were the

problem, and some of them were indicted and convicted already, the doj is done with the work, fine. but the chairman said in an interview with a colleague here, they found people who were committing they say rampant elector fraud at the behest of the outgoing and sitting president of the united states, the doj hadn't even talked to them yet, let alone tried to build a case, indicted them. then we have a two-tier system of justice, something we reported on before, why we wrote this forward about the conspiracy. i wrote there were eight plots, many unconstitutional, many criminal and they planned it. and right now no one who was not present has been charged with a crime relating to any of those election plots. that's a question for america. and the report, if it works, is to lay it out for the american people. and if it gets buried, we'll

find out. i'm working tomorrow, shout out to deadline, i'm working this hour tomorrow. >> thanks for being here. >> that's the big question. but an unpunished failed coup can become a training exercise. >> andrew wiseman, do you know what the word apistological means? >> i have to go to my dictionary. >> the control room is asking me, it says according to google, relating to the theory of knowledge, special with regards to methods, validity and scope. i've never heard that word so i have no idea what that is. >> andrew will tell you, can it be that it was all so simple?

>> andrew, tell me what you are thinking about this, whether the delay is a problem on a legal level, on a prosecutorial level, is this in the way of anything or much ado about nothing that we've been waiting around, chomping at the bit to get this and we're frustrated because we live in the bubble? >> i think the answer is both. i think in terms of the data and what we do with it, more importantly what doj does with it, i think this is much ado about nothing. they're waiting to see, really, the substance of what's there. but to ari's point, part of this is convincing the american public of something. and obviously just not ideal to have this delayed until, you know, holiday vacations, in terms of getting people to focus on it and read it and think about it. so, you know, it's not ideal. the one tipoff here that it's not just a sort of -- you know,

zelenskyy issue that they put it off because of that, if you look at the 160-page executive summary, there are actually a fair number of typos and a place they make -- they left in a note to themselves that wasn't taken out. so there's a real sense that they may have just looked at it and said, you know what, when we issue our final report it has to be clean. so it may be a lot of proofreading and making sure that kind of stuff isn't in there. it sounds mundane but as a lawyer, those are the things you get paid a lot of money to make sure that doesn't happen, that things are really perfect when they get put out to the public like this. >> that's one of the reasons i was never going to be a lawyer, like ever term paper i wrote had those kinds of errors in it. >> luke, i want to get back to the transcripts i mentioned cassidy hutchinson earlier, maybe the most impactful of

witnesses, surprise witness this summer, did an incredible amount of damage in some ways to donald trump, an unexpected witness, surprise witness, credible. told stories largely corroborated to this point. what did we learn about her today from reading her transcripts? >> so in the waiting for this report we have gotten almost 40 transcripts released both yesterday and some more today. and i understand there's more coming probably before we're even done on the show. but the -- cassidy hutchinson was the standout witness of the january 6th committee. and we did get additional information from these transcripts today that she didn't testify to publically yet. one of them was just exactly who was pressuring her in her words to be less than truthful with the committee. she mentioned how her previous lawyer had told her to protect donald trump, protect the president, and to protect other people.

she said that a chief spokesman for mark meadows had called her attempting to influence her. and she told several anecdotes both from mark meadows, john radcliffe and others where people said they had spoken with donald trump and donald trump had told them he knew he lost but that he wanted to still fight the election results anyway. so here's more evidence coming out as we're going through the transcripts. >> here comes -- sorry, i have to cut you off right here. joe biden is coming to the podium right now, let's listen to him giving what they're calling a christmas speech. how silently, how silently the wondrous gift is given. there's a certain stillness at the center of christmas story. silent night, when all the world goes quiet. and all the glamour all the noise, everything that pits us against one another, everything, everything that seems so

important but really isn't, it all fades away in the stillness of the winter's evening. and we look to the sky to a lone star shining brighter than all the rest. guiding us to the birth of a child. a child christians believe to be the son of god. with us here on earth bringing hope, love, and peace and joy to the world. yes, it's a story that's 2,000 years old but still very much alive today. look into the eyes of a child on christmas morning. listen to the laughter of a family together this holiday season after years of being apart. just feel the hope rising in your chest as you sing, hark the herald angels sing, even though you've sung it countless times before. yes, even after 2,000 years christmas has the power to lift us up, to bring us together, to

change lives, to change the world. the christmas story is at the heart of the christian faith. but the messages of hope, love, peace and joy, they're also universal. it speaks to all of us, whether we're jewish, christian, buddhist, indue, any other faith or no faith at all, it speaks to all of us. we're here on this earth to care for one another, to look out for one another, to love one another, the message of christmas is always important but it's especially important through tough times. like the ones we've been through the past few years. the pandemic has taken so much from us. we've lost so much time with one another, we've lost so many people. people we loved. over a million lives lost in america alone. that's a million empty chairs, breaking hearts and homes all

across the country. our politics has gotten so angry, so mean, so partisan. and too often we see each other as enemies, not as neighbors. as democrats or republicans, not as fellow americans. we've become too divided. as tough as these times have been, if we look a little closer, we see bright spots across the country. the strength, the determination, the resilience, that's long defined america. we're surely making progress, things are getting better. covid no longer controls our lives. our kids are back in school. people are back to work. in fact, more people are working than ever before. americans are building again, innovating again, dreaming again. so my hope this christmas season is that we take a few moments of quiet reflection, find that stillness in the heart of christmas, it's at the heart of christmas, and really look at

each other. not as democrats or republicans. not as members of team red or team blue. but as who we really are, fellow americans. fellow human beings worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. i hope this holiday season will drain the poison that's infected our politics and set us against one another. i hope this christmas season marks a fresh start for our nation because there's so much that unites us as americans. so much more that unites us than divides us. we're truly blessed to live in this nation. and i truly hope we take the time to look out, look out for one another. not at one another, for one another. so many people struggle at christmas. a time of great pain and terrible loneliness. i know like many of you know, it was 50 years ago this week that

i lost my first wife and infant daughter in a car accident. my two sons were badly injured when they were out shopping for a christmas tree. i know how hard this time of year can be. but here's what i learned long ago. no one, no one can ever know what someone else is going through. what's really going on in their life. what they're struggling with. what they're trying to overcome. that's why sometimes the smallest act of kindness can mean so much. a simple smile, a hug. an unexpected phone call, a quiet cup of coffee. simple acts of kindness that can lift a spirit, provide comfort and perhaps maybe even save a life. so this christmas let's spread a little kindness. this christmas let's be that helping hand, that strong shoulder, that friendly voice. when no one else seems to care for those who are struggling, in

trouble, in need. it might be the best gift you can ever give. be sure to remember the brave men and women in uniform who protect our nation. many of them are away from their families at this time of year. keep them in our prayers. you know, i believe christmas is a season of hope. and throughout the life of this country, it's been during the weeks of december, even in the midst of some of our toughest days that some of the best chapters of our story have been written. it was during these weeks back in 1862 that president lincoln prepared that emancipation proclamation that he issued on new year's day. christmas, 1941, in the weeks of pearl harbor. frank dell nor roosevelt hosted winston churchill in this white house. together they planned the strategy to defeat autocracy. it was 1968, the most terrible year of years, the year of assassination and riot and war

and chaos, that the astronauts of apollo 8 circled the moon and spoke to us on earth, on a silent night on christmas eve. they read the story of christmas creation from the king james bible when in the beginning god created heaven and earth and god said let there be light and there was light. that light's still with us. illuminating the way forward as americans and citizens of the world. a light that burned in the beginning and at bethlehem, a light that shines still today, in our own time, in our own lives. as we sing o holy night as law is love and gospel as peace, i wish you, and for you and for our nation, now and always, is that we'll live in the light. the light of liberty and hope. of love and generosity. of kindness and compassion.

of dignity and decency. so from the biden family, we wish you and your family peace, joy, health and happiness. merry christmas, happy holidays, and all the best in the new year. god bless you all, and may god protect our troops. thank you. >> mr. president -- and that was joe biden giving a brief, heartfelt, nonpartisan, nonpolitical -- entirely nonpolitical holiday speech. when the white house puts out word they're going to send the president out to give a christmas speech or holiday speech one assumes they're thinking victory lap, joe biden has had a lot of accomplishments in the last two years, a good midterm, even president zelenskyy here yesterday,

something that joe biden could easily brag about in a fullsome way about keeping the western alliance together helping ukraine against russia. none of that in this speech here. a long tradition of presidents about to head off on the christmas or holiday break. president obama would do a brief speech followed by a press conference before he headed off to hawaii and other presidents in the past have done a similar thing. one expected that perhaps of joe biden maybe taking questions but having a speech that was on both holiday themes and filled with oblique references to politics and policy. none of that here with the exception of biden's frequent, traditional well known to his aspiration that the partisan bitterness and toxicity be leeched out of our politics and we return to a more forgiving politics, a more pragmatic politics, a politics that lives at the center rather than on the

polarized edges. joe biden did say he hopes that happens this holiday season. i think as he says that he knows it's unlikely to happen this holiday season. but that is a speech that almost no american, no matter what their political persuasion is will find much to criticize, you never know on fox news, though. that is what we got to see from joe biden today in this holiday speech. how much minutes was that? how many minutes did he talk? nine minutes. only nine minutes. and that is it. off the man goes. and having made the point i would love to have the conversation see if there was any other political agenda that was being pursued here that eludes me, but i think that was joe biden just being joe biden. and trying to speak to, in his most nostalgic and heartfelt way to the spirit of the season. and now we're back. here they are.

we're going to pick up our conversation where we left off before. andrew and luke -- you both popped up on my screen, now we return to our originally scheduled program. luke you were in the middle of talking about cassidy hutchinson when we broke away. apologize for breaking away so quickly. talk about that. andrew i know you want to talk about the cassidy hutchinson transcripts also. go ahead. >> i like a nice holiday break, too. but the key findings from the transcripts, one was the pressure campaign against cassidy hutchinson to get her to change her testimony or not be fully forthcoming with the committee. the other was evidence she put forward about people who spoke to trump and conveyed to her that he knew he lost and wanted to keep fighting anyway and was

angry and depressed and full of wrath over having lost the election and he was fully aware of that. i thought those were the two takeaways from me as i read the transcripts. >> talk about what you saw reading through cassidy hutchinson's transcripts. what were the implications of the takeaways? >> i had the same takeaways. let me give flavor for something that luke eluded to. which is this idea of pressure on her to play ball and to be on the same team. one of the things that seemed really straight out of what i used to prosecute the mob was a call she describes from ben williamson, senior adviser to mark meadows, i think the day before her second deposition with the january 6th committee. and during that call, she is

told that mark meadows is aware she's about to go in and testify, she's going to be counted on to protect him and the boss that they're all on the same team, part of the same family. we understand that you're loyal. that it's not something to be worried about. you can just say you don't recall it was just an array of things that, you know, in my prior life as a prosecutor, i would look at as at least potential obstruction of justice grounds to charge people like mr. williamson and potentially others. so those people need to get lawyers if they don't have one already. that's sort of the stick side. there were also some carrots. there was a reference to getting

her a job, and a name that appears frequently is someone named alex cannon. and some of the viewers may remember hearing about him because he has the same last name as judge cannon. and if you remember, he is somebody who appeared because he refused to sign the certification that all documents had been given back to the archives. so he appeared previously in the public's attention as sort of a good guy. somebody who is not willing to sign off on something that could be false. but here in cassidy hutchinson's testimony, he appears as someone either wittingly or unwittingly participating in part of this obstruction campaign by saying we can get jobs lined up for you. it's very hard not to think of what happened with monica

lewinsky where the same thing happened, we can get you a job. in that case it was at revlon. and so there was a real carrot and stick effort that is described by cassidy hutchinson. you can be sure if they're doing it with cassidy hutchinson, they're doing it with numerous other people. so this is a lot of food for the special counsel to be investigating and pursuing this line of evidence. it can be incredibly promising for prosecutors to bring these charges. >> it's a complicated thing, ari, the way that luke and andrew were talking about the implications of this. as we try to -- we're going through the transcripts, for example, we can talk about this too, a lot of focus on the number of people who took the fifth and how often they took the fifth. it's an interesting thing people can understand that. we have donald trump's sound saying if you do that you're obviously guilty. the mob takes the fifth.

so we have a look at the document, charlie kirk, pleading the fifth to every question except what state he lives in. arizona. nick fuentes, in the white nationalist anti-semite community, 40 pages of fifth amendment claims. but the stuff around cassidy hutchinson, and the ways the trump people tried to lean on people, cassidy hutchinson the most vivid example but probably more as andrew suggested. you don't remember anything, tell them you don't remember. that's an enormous consequence because there are crimes that could be charged off of that, that are maybe not as high profile as donald trump getting charged with a criminal indictment but they're important and can build a case against those further up the chain. >> cassidy hutchinson proved to be one of the most damning

witnesses which is why we got her live testimony in the hearings. but we have to remember on january 7th when people woke up the next day and it was fresh and horrible, mcconnell and mccarthy were condemning him, he was being written off. people looked at this and what they saw was absolutely without precedence one of the worst things a president could be involved with. and he was impeached for it. we didn't know what other accounts told us, as the thing was going down he tried to physically join it. he wanted to physically lead the insurrection in the way that we've seen, tragically in other countries with a higher body count usually, where the resistance or leader is there and marching in. and what would those officers -- what terrible choice would have be fallen those capitol officerers if they're supposed to hold the perimeter but donald

trump gets ahold of the wheel or gets agents to get them there. that crystallized what it was, an attempted coup that failed. if you look at the footnotes of the first 150 pages we have. there's a driver of the car not named listed as corroborating her account and her account and this other stuff. reference was made earlier i believe to the mafia style lawyer to ask the mafia question in "the godfather" who benefits. why the money and offers for people who knew about that? it wasn't that many people, it was the agents, ms. hutchinson, meadows who's been loyal and a couple others. she was in their view a weak link or what prosecutors call a star witness. >> i mentioned the notion of these people pleading the fifth we talked about this on monday

we saw in the documents we have, the transcripts have flushed that out. talk about the -- go to the implications of whether that is beyond kind of a superficially damning whether there is greater meaning or future consequences that can be deduced from some of the ways on which people pled the fifth and topics they pled the fifth. >> it's important to understand that the assertion of the fifth amendment is a constitutional right. as a lawyer, and as somebody who was at the department of justice, i just don't engage in the idea that if you assert your constitutional right that there's something wrong with that, it's your right to do that. and it puts the department, though, in an interesting position. what i think they're going to do with those transcripts is, one, they're going to look at the questions that were asked. because those can be quite revealing. and they can see whether

there's -- there are things they want to follow-up with. so, for instance, as we talked about yesterday, garrett ziegler is asked a question about didn't you tell your wife to make sure she is out of town on january 6th? the import being that he knew that there would be such violence that you would not want to be there. so that's something that if you're at the department you're going to be interested in following up. but the other is, you can decide, either you may be able to make a criminal case against some of these people but if you're not able to. one of the things the department can do is immunize people and force them to testify. once you are immunized you cannot plead the fifth because the idea is you can't be prosecuted based on anything you say or leads based on anything you say. so if there's somebody who looks like they have really important information who is a lower level

player, who could help the department get higher level people, such as a mark meadows or rudy giuliani or a jeff clark or a donald trump, they can immunize that person and put them in the grand jury and at that point, there will be a lot of pressure on that person to just tell the truth. because it's really their get out of jail free card. so that's what i think the department does with all of those assertions. they know that, in court, the assertion of the fifth amendment can't be used in any way, shape, or form at all. >> luke, our colleague here at nbc news, ali vitali caught up with jamie raskin in the hallway not too long ago and asked him, where's the report. raskin said it's coming -- oh, we have the sound, i don't have to read it. fantastic. listen to raskin right now talking to ali vitali. >> can i ask, where's the report

now? >> well, the report is very much on its way. i don't know what time exactly it will arrive. >> is this the most famous printer jam in congressional history? >> i think you will have the report today. i believe it's en route. remember we're dealing with a skeleton crew now. we're overwhelmed with what's going on on the floor. we had president zelenskyy here last night. which was wonderful. but the staff is working real hard to get it out today. i have confidence they'll get it out today. >> so, luke, i don't like to parse too much here but i will say, i think you'll have the report out today. i believe it's en route. and i have confidence that they'll get it out today. none of which are actually statements of the fact it's going to come out today. note a lot of conditionals and aspirational language there. as we sit and wait for it and

you've had the time to look, as we all tap our fingers on the desk and tap our toes, you had the ability to study the transcripts. we talked about cassidy hutchinson. reading the transcripts, are they pointing you towards giving you greater clarity what you look for when the final report comes in and are there things in the transcripts that were potential veins or lines of reporting? scenes you want to mine, that you have story ideas and your reporting is going to lead you towards in the days to come? >> yeah, absolutely. one thing i've been very interested in from the start is the false electors scheme. we saw some evidence come out from the transcripts yesterday through the questioning, because through subpoenas, the investigators had obtained text messages and emails and they would read some of these to the noncooperative witnesses

pleading the fifth. one of them was the transcript of mike roman, a trump campaign field director. he received messages where he's directing his deputy to go to the capitol and deliver materials about the false elector scheme directly to the capitol where they were trying to get the electors accepted instead of the actual electors for joe biden. i know that's one thing the justice department is simultaneously looking at. they sent out subpoenas to seven of the states involved and the trump campaign was involved in this. with we're going to see information about how widespread this was from the trump campaign to get into these different state capitols with the electors. organize these bans of people willing to say donald trump won my state when joe biden actually did. i believe there's some, you know, criminal liability there

that the justice department is very interested in that. so i think we'll see more evidence in this report. that's one of the things i noticed yesterday. another was calls -- there was evidence from some of the witnesses about calling state officials to try to say stop the count on election day. so you can see this type of interference going on with elections from these pro-trump allies. >> ari, you're a lawyer and a political analyst and someone who looks at this in the most careful way of the network. day-to-day basis no one has been on this more than you. we are in the position right now waiting for the documents we want to see. there are many things important about this committee. policy implications that extend long beyond donald trump, nothing to do with donald trump, about national security, how to secure the government make sure another insurrection doesn't happen in the future. but in the end, the question of donald trump's criminality and

whether or not he will be held responsible. and the precedence it will or will not set for future presidents. i'd love for you to talk about that and how between what we've seen, the executive summary and these transcripts and what we're about to see. what the picture is that you're trying to pull together to make clear just how central that issue is. >> i think that's the big question, you say that it all comes down to. and as a nation we began the week with history being made. it will be in history books no matter what happens, for the first time ever, congress, on a bipartisan basis, with liz cheney involved. referred the former president for serious charges, four total. and the question becomes is there overwhelming evidence, that's what prosecutors want, against donald trump for one or more of those crimes and does the doj decide it is more dangerous to let that sit as an

invitation for future coups and another president who lawfully does control the military and the nukes and the national guard until the 20th. is that more dangerous than acting? because lawyers love precedent, the precedent has been we never -- nixon was a complex case. we never saw the indictment of a president. we've got to see what the report is going to do, but that is ultimately for teaching the nation and thus the environment around the justice department, was he culpable. i think it is remarkable, as we sit here with so much having happened in the open. our colleague mentioned the electors. if you had an elector plot and that's the only thing that happened, i don't know, it's close to politics and free speech. that was part of the pretense

that ron johnson we know was trying to physically hand to the president on the day of the violent insurrection and no one has been charged on that. there are poor people, black and white, more black than white, sitting in prison on a single instance of voter fraud, a paperwork violation, but you have republicans and maga elites doing brazen elector fraud on the same day of the violent insurrection and none of those people have been called in for a charge. i say, it's my job, if charged they're presumed innocent until trial we have to see what happens. but when i see that imbalance over this long a period of time, there's an imbalance around the justice department and questions around the courage and independence of him and the special counsel we'll see if they do anything. >> we won't get into the other equities of all of those, people sitting in jails all over

america for smoking a blunt. >> yeah. >> it used to be the wall street fraudsters, none of them were prosecuted. this is going to be -- if nothing comes of this, this is equivalent to this. a case study in how the rich and powerful, in politics, finance, or wherever they reside, can operate by a different set of rules than the rest of us. >> was it not jay-z who said, those who make the laws, i'm going to always have smoke for them. in a song about these double standards. don't ask me how. >> i just kept going. we were supposed to break a while ago. we hadn't had a jay-z reference so i kept going until i got one from ari. luke, andrew, and ari, thank you for citing jay-z. ari will be back in a little over an hour for "the beat". maybe we'll have the report. when we come back, donald trump's tax filings raising

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history and also at the same time questions and red flags being thrown all over the field about the conduct of the irs. according to a joint release by the committee on taxation. then president trump paid nothing, zero, zilch in taxes in 2021 after paying $1.1 million in federal income taxes during the first years of his presidency. the committee saying the irs also failed, maybe didn't fail, neglected, to conduct audits of his taxes in the first two years of office even though they were mandated to do so. they subjected biden and odate. let's start right there with suzanne craig who was just with us the other day, "new york times" investigative reporter and trump tax expert whose work covering his finances earned her and her colleagues at "the times" a pulitzer prize and tim

o'brien, one of the rare people on planet earth until now who had seen any of donald trump's taxes back in the day. suzanne, i want to throw up just real quickly, for the normal people out there, the biggest -- what did trump make? that's what people want to know, and we've got so much going on in the last couple of days. 2015, 31 million, 2016, 32 million, 2017, 12, 2818, 24 million, apparently in 2020 -- i guess a couple of these others were loss years, in the red. a loss of 31 million in 2015, a loss in 32, i didn't see the red ink there. i'm color blind. makes 4 million in 2019 loses money again in 2020, and the income taxes, boy, 641,000 in 2015, then you got these streaks, we talked about this on the air the other day, 750 bucks, that's it, nearly a million dollars in '18.

133,000 in 2019, and then that big goose egg in 2020. you know, i remember the one jobs report on barack obama when there was zero jobs. it can't just be zero. zero seems impossible. what you have learned? we saw you right when they were about to come out. tell us what the big takeaways for you have been? >> well, i was going to interrupt you midstream there to say there's a lot of red ink with some of the negative signs. he loses a lot of money. what i think is kind of one of the most interesting things we found and i'm dying to talk about the irs, the notes that we found out from the irs about what they -- you know, about the back and forth. but the main thing from 2018 is it looks like he had a great year, and i think just the nugget in there is that the reason he had a good year that year is because he had a gain from the sale of some real estate, and the real estate that he sold that year happens to

stem from an investment his father made in the early 1970s in a public housing process. donald trump has lived a frictionless life because of his father fred trump. he died in 1999, but he inherited millions from him, and then he also got millions from his role in "the apprentice", and he has -- outside of those two things, lost so much money. and just to see in 2018 to see fred trump again make an appearance to boost his son's financial position was wonderful. >> so i want to stick with you real quick because we're going to get up to the 5:00 break, i want to get to that stuff you were so excited to talk about, the stuff related to the irs that the ways and means committee wrote about. you said there's incredible stuff in there. talk about that. >> well, it just was incredible to see the notes. you know, he has to go through these presidential audits. he didn't go through two. first of all, they only had one or tw people assigned to do it,

and then when you see the notes, you just see how willing they were to accept certain things and not push back. and one of them was -- you know, because i want to hear from tim, but i just love this one and i'll read from it. they said that the irs audit files again stated that the use of professionals to prepare the returns ensured accuracy. they were willing to take his word because he had professional preparers. this is a guy, keep in mind, his organization just got convicted of fraud, and so they're saying he has professional filers. so we're -- you know, we're not going to look anymore. and there was another one. the report covers some of the findings that we had in 2020 in our reporting when we got decades of his tax returns. one thing we found out was there was these consulting payments to his children specifically we were able to establish ivanka got some because she's an employee, there's potential problems that she's also getting consulting payments, and they said in the filings that, you

know, for them to have to sort all that out, the money just wasn't enough for them to put the resources behind it. it's just incredible to see that they weren't willing to investigate further when it was right in front of them in our reporting. >> tim, there are a million things we could talk about it and if it wasn't for joe biden giving his christmas speech today, we would have had a lot more time to talk about all of them. i want to focus on one thing, in some ways donald trump as being a crappy businessman and a guy who tries to cheat on his taxes, neither one of those things surprises anyone. i think what stuns people is that the irs decided not to audit him. that seems like in some ways maybe the biggest story to come out of this. what to make of that, like what is going on there and what should be looked at here? it does seem like there might be something rotten over at irs headquarters. >> well, john, we'll still have to wait to find out the full answer. we don't know why exactly they didn't do it. we'll need more reporting on that. either answer is a bad one. either it's because they were

inept and unsophisticated and underresourced and couldn't do it or it's because they chose not to. i think the reporting that's come out that they audited obama and then they audited biden, but there's this weird gap when a man who has x tons the amount of money and more complexity than either obama or biden doesn't get audited suggests that it was a choice. but i think we'll have to find out more about that. i think, you know, the mandated audits got put in place in the wake of watergate to make automatic audits a kind of function of good government so it wasn't left up to individuals inside the irs to decide to do this. so you could try to a certain extent depoliticize it, as long as it was automatic, it didn't matter who was in the oval office. and yet, it didn't get triggered for trump. so that smells, and we need to get more information about it. i think the other -- you know, when you dive into this as well as sue pointed out, all the back

and forth between trump's lawyers and the irs, you have steve mnuchin, the treasury secretary getting involved. i think the other thing in there is you wonder how much attention they would have paid to this had sue and her colleagues not done their epic landmark indispensable reporting on this. throughout those reports there are numerous references to "the times" reporting. the whole thing taken together shows an institution, the irs is not up to a role it needs to supervising the president's finances. >> thank you, guys, you both have a lot to say. this is a really important story. small businessmen, republicans, democrats, joe biden, barack obama they all get audited and the one fraudster, he doesn't get audited in four years of president. it stinks. thank you for coming on.

like jamie raskin we remain hopeful in the spirit of the season that the january 6th committee will make our faith rewarded by presenting its final and full report to us before this day ends. we don't know. another hour of news is next right after this quick break. right after this quick break or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. stand up to your symptoms with rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that tackles pain, stiffness, swelling. for some, rinvoq significantly reduces ra and psa fatigue. it can stop further irreversible joint damage. and rinvoq can leave skin clear or almost clear in psa. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq

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your career and your life on your terms. choose change, california, and find medically proven treatment options at choosechangeca.org. the president said something to the effect of i'm the effing president, take me up to the capitol now. to which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engel grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need take your hand off the steering wheel, we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge towards bobby

engel and when mr. ornato reaccounted the story to me he had motioned towards his clavicles. >> in the great words of ren and stifrp stimpy, happy, happy, joy, joy. a jaw dropping moment from the january 6th series of public hearings when former aide to mark meadows cassidy hutchinson recalled the story that she heard about former president trump on january 6th that reveals a lot about his mind-set on that day. and we are just learning today that it almost wasn't told to the public. the committee today releasing transcripts of its follow-up interviews with hutchinson in september where she explains that months earlier her lawyer at the time told her not to tell that story. i remember saying to stefan, tony ornato and i were close to the white house. tony told me this incident happened, stefan said, no no,

no, no, no, he sat back in his chair and he's like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want to go there. we don't want to talk about that, end quote. her lawyer continued, it's a headline. a cool story for the committee. it will be on the news for a couple days. i don't want you to have to tell that story just because he told you doesn't mean that you need to share that with them. the transcript of hutchinson's interview revealing how much intense pressure passantino put on his client to avoid revealing damaging details about donald trump. hutchinson said, quote, i want to make this clear to you, stefan never told me to lie. he specifically told me i don't want you to perjure yourself, what i don't recall isn't perjury. you don't know what you can and can't recall. her story reads like something out of the godfather with passantino pushing her not to make the boss look bad.

she explains how she felt during her first interviews. it wasn't just that i had stefan sitting next to me, it was almost like i felt i had trump looking over my shoulder because i knew in some fashion it would get back to him if i said anything, he would find disloyal. and the prospect of that genuinely scared me. you know, i've seen this world ruin people's lives or try to ruin people's careers. i had scene how vicious they can be. meanwhile, we here at "deadline white house," msnbc and the whole of the political press corps and much of the political world still waiting for the release of the 1/6 committee final full report, all 800 pages of it which could be released to the public and us any minute now. committee member jamie raskin told our colleague ali vitali from nbc news that he still expects it to come today. as we wait with bated breath, and our green eye shades on and our magnifying glasses, joining us now nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles,

hopefully he's going to say, hey, i got it. ryan, you got it? if you don't have it, where is it? >> reporter: the first time we've been on together and i don't want to disappoint you, but unfortunately i'm going to have to. my thumb is raw from trying to refresh my email over and over again to get this report. it just simply has not dropped yet. we do not know how soon it could come. there is a good chance that it slides into tomorrow. we don't exactly know the reason for the delay. we had originally thought it at least had something to do with president zelenskyy's visit here on wednesday. that was the day that it was originally supposed to be released. so you know, it's just a waiting game at this point. but you know, when the report actually does come out -- go ahead, john. sorry, ryan -- >> reporter: the point i was going to make, yeah, the point ifrs going to make, when the report does come out, we don't really expect that many more bombshells right? the committee has spent last 18 months really methodically

laying out their case in a very public and transparent format holding ten different public hearings where they heard from witnesses in great detail, where they've revealed much of this transcript information, even showing videos of these transcripts, and then, you know, piecing together all the different aspects of this into one neat package where they release that executive summary on monday to kind of present their central thesis, that they believe that as much as it was a problem that there were all these people at the capitol and that they, you know, illegally stormed the capitol on that day to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, none of it would have happened if it weren't for donald trump encouraging them to do so based on the false premise that the election was stolen from him. that's been their general thesis. we've always known that for some time. they laid it out on monday. this is just going to be all the supporting documentation that we're waiting to see, and this is, you know, in many ways, john, an effort for them to put something down in the history books. they want historians to be able to look at this great detail of

information that they've put together as the definitive narrative of that period of time in american history a because they want to make sure that it goes on the record so that something like this doesn't happen again. >> ryan, i apologize for interrupting you there briefly. there was something in my ear that was telling me something had just happened, and i thought, oh, my god, they've just dropped it. i heard the committee has dropped -- and i went, wait, what? it turns out they have dropped five new transcripts in the time you've been talking. >> yes, i see it now. >> there it is. that's that little belch of mine, wasn't literally a belch, so we got some more transcripts. when we find out the identities of them, maybe someone in the control room can tell me who they are. >> i can tell you, chris krebs, stephen ayers, mark esper, ken cla cow ski, and sarah matthews who's of course one of the other staffers from inside the west wing in the oval office during that period of time. so klukowski is one of the

former lawyers connected to the effort to overturning election, chris krebs talking about the lengths the administration was going to during that period of time. this is what it's going to be like between now and really the end of the year when the committee is dissolved where we're going to see them kind of trickling out these transcripts little by little. there are somewhere in the range of 300 transcripts. they conducted more than a thousand interviews, but not all of those interviews were under oath is and transcribed, many of them were informal conversations, more kind of investigative stages. 300 transcripts, many of them hundreds of pages. there's a lot of people in there that we haven't heard the full breath of their interviews, people like bill barr, general milley's transcript is one that we'll look for, all these different people that were very important and key players during this whole time that are going to be very interesting to see when they finally come out. >> ryan, i'm hopeful that this

isn't how it continues until the end of the year. there was an intimation that we might be waiting for the report until the end of the year. it's thursday, december 22nd, at the rate they're going right now if this epic paper jam continues, we could get all 300 of those transcripts in the next 48 hours the way they're putting them out right now. i'm utterly befuddled by what's going on down there in washington, d.c., i'm going to let you go and also read those five new transcripts. brief us on what's there. thanks for spending a couple of minutes with us now. joining us to talk about this a little more, anna palmer, cofounder and ceo of o'punch bowl nauz and an msnbc contributor. also with us, the man, myth, legend, harry litman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general and ash pa monoga pa, former fbi agent, and a senior lecturer at yale jackson school, and former

republican and msnbc political analyst, david jolly. they're all here to help us muddle through in the absence of this report that we've been expecting now for two straight days. harry, i want you to start with us off here, you've been tweeting up a storm about cassidy hutchinson and her testimony. we all thought it was interesting enough, but then we look at the litman twitter feed, and it's so interesting that i keep waiting for elon musk to kick you off the platform. tell us what you saw, harry, and what it meant as you read the hutchinson transcripts and why they matter so much. >> i did get pretty hot and bothered because it seemed to me this is not as passantino would have it just kind of a normal hedging or protection of the client. when he said, when you said at the top, john, well, i didn't tell her to perjure herself or even hutchinson says that, but i

did say your watch word, your go-to is the way he put it is i don't recall. that is perjury. if her account is accurate and my lord do we know more a more credible witness in the cosmos now than cassidy hutchinson, he basically pushed her to lie and, in fact, that's what she said during the really emotional meeting for her. she came back and said i'm effed, i'm effed, i lied, i lied. he pushed her to continue to give that refrain, and then on the very specific more inflammatory pieces you also talked about that up top to do the same thing. that does happen every day that at least witnesses say they don't recall when they do, but for a lawyer to actually counsel -- more than counsel, push to do it is not only kind of mob tactics, you know, not even the godfather, i would say a lesser novel, but really

criminal. you can't -- you just can't do it, and i've seen different kinds of lawyers do different things, but this is way beyond the pale. asha i'm going to ask you a question in a second just to give you a sense of the full picture of it here that harry's been talking about. basically threats, pressures to lie, promises of being taken care of if she's loyal. one of the most striking things here in addition to the mob like quality of all of this is this quote of hutchinson in the transcript where she talks about passantino essentially saying trump world is paying. she says he was like if we even think about engaging with them, there's -- this is hutchinson, if we even think about engaging with them, meaning the committee, there's no way that we could do this without a second subpoena. trump world will not continue paying your legal bills if they don't have that second subpoena. so that was the first moment in my mind where i had sort of corroborated, now i had my strong suspicions that the funding was coming from trump

world. he never gave any indication that it was, the actual financials that it was coming from trump world until he said it that night. i don't know what people's standards were for what they thought was going to be interesting potentially in the final report versus what we already know and from the executive summary, but a lot of the stuff in this hutchinson transcript is not just explosive but and in fleshing out the story in very vivid and powerful ways, but also i think has potential legal implications for a bunch of people. what do you think? >> yes, definitely for some of the people. i think you see basically a spectrum of obstruction, some of which may be criminally actionable and some which may not be. so you had many witnesses stonewalling, taking the fifth amendment. that's their right. it definitely suggests some consciousness of guilt or wanting to conceal something, but that's not actionable, and

then at the other end you have these actions of actively perjury by this lawyer. i want to just emphasize what the implications of this is. if cassidy hutchinson had gone along with her lawyer's avice and we didn't know about this incident with tony ornato, for example, that is a very key piece of evidence about trump's state of mind, what his intentions were with regard to, you know, this crowd. ornato may not have been followed up with to give more testimony, he's now been found not credible by this committee. there's so many implications in terms of the ripple effects of this type of obstruction, so i definitely hope that the justice department will look at her situation very closely. >> anna palmer, you are a student of washington and its byways and its odd codes of

speech. stefan passantino, we've been talking about him, he has put out a statement defending himself against the allegations that come through in her testimony. and then notes as he goes and says -- i will not read the entire statement because it's mostly ped fog ri. he said i was honorable, i was ethical, i was consistent with, blah blah and was basically like look, hey, man, i did nothing wrong. that's what it all says. interestingly, at the end, he's also taking a leave of absence at his law firm to avoid being a, quote, distraction. i'd like you to do a little translation there anna when you see a lawyer leaving their law firm because they become a distraction. what matters more, the taking the leave from the law firm or all of the defense that they put into the blandly worded statement that we see up here on the screen right now from cassidy hutchinson's original lawyer? >> well, it certainly is interesting, i think in particular when you look at the fact that he has left the law firm. i mean, i don't know that that

is any acknowledgment of wrongdoing, but it certainly an instance where when all of a sudden a lawyer starts costing a law firm or their place of employment, business feeling like maybe they aren't in the up and up, there you can often see that kind of transfer out, right? and i think that is one example, especially in washington where your word being truthful, very important, i know there's a lot of people that might not think that, but especially when it comes to some of the operators who have been here for a long time. and stefan passantino is somebody who had been in washington for a long time. i used to cover lawyers almost 20 years ago skrgs he was one of those figures in the conservative law movement that had a lot of clients doing a lot of different things around lobbying and ethics and things like that. and so going to be very interesting to see what happens to him next, not just on the criminal face of things, but certainly what is the future of him in the law profession sprks and where do clients see he's a credible lawyer and whether he

has their best interests at heart. >> you know, i will say david jolly that i obviously anna's right, i'm not meaning to suggest anything criminal operate of cassidy hutchinson's lawyer, but i will say that one of the great lies in politics is i'm going to quit my job to spend more time with my family. another is i'm going to take a leave from my law firm because i've become a distraction. these are things to get rid of smoke because there's often fire. go to this mob behavior thing one more time. there's a quote in the hutchinson transcript where she's talking about a conversation with ben williamson. hutchinson says, he said something to the effect of, well, mark wants me to let you know that he knows you're loyal and he knows you'll do the right thing tomorrow and that you're going to protect him and the boss. you know, he knows that we're all on the same team and we're all a family. do well. let me know how it goes. i mean, again, man, it's just

right out of the godfather, it's just the kind of language that if you wrote it in a hollywood script for a gangster movie, it's cliche, it's an amazing picture she paints of the way in which this whole ecosystem operates? >> in a more traditional department of justice forum perhaps actionable for tampering with a witness, if you will. it is clear that this was the mob mentality of the trump white house. we have heard that now from witnesses, and i'm intrigued by the release today, john, of the sarah matthews transcript. not only does she back up cassidy hutchinson's testimony, she's also one of the very few people who actually resigned on january 6th, and she said she did so because she saw donald trump fail to act and basically revel in the events of that day. listen, everybody had to reach their own conclusion on their own time line. sarah matthews' testimony i think could be fairly intriguing for the fact that she left

specifically because of trump's state of mind that day, and ultimately that's kind of the dispositive question for whether or not the department of justice could decide to bring any type of action against the former president. >> we're going to take a quick break here. we're going to come back and go around the horn again so we can hear more from each of these brilliant analysts. anna palmer may be leaving. thank you for starting us off. you're the only one we're losing. i wish you could stay, but you have somewhere to go, damn you. when we come back, we'll have much more on the latest release by the january 6th select committee new transcripts. hot off the presses, freshly baked. some of the more than a thousand witnesses that went before the committee. plus, at the end of the show, we will have a big recap of a big week in washington with the one and only nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss, "deadline white house" continues after a quick break, so please hang in there.

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all you had to do is ask. i am down to my last life. when you only have one life... that's what makes it special. go get 'em tiger. we are back with harry, asha and david, our tinkers, evers, and chance for today's show for you really old time baseball fan will know what that means. the rest of you will be lost by that reference. harry, you're diving headlong into the sylvia matthews -- sarah matthew testimony from that transcript, you think there's some interesting stuff in there. i have been on the air for the last hour and 23 minutes. i have no idea what's in there, but i hear you found some stuff. go. >> a little bit of stuff. these are the saddest of

possible words. yeah, so you know, she's talking about trump's excitement and jubilation on january 5th, the night before the rally. she's talking about his acknowledging his loss, this she's giving knowledge of his having lost. those are the couple snippets, and of course like hutchinson is responsive the way through rather than the kind of deafening silence of the 34 they released yesterday. >> asha, i think one of the things that was always a defining characteristic of the trump era, which i guess we're still living in is the kind of tension between trump evil genius political savant con spire psyist. and he's an idiot. he's out of his mind, he can't control himself, he's crazy and he's done.

what i think emerged in some ways over the course of this committee's investigation is a picture that brings those two, both of those things together, elements of truth in both of those pictures. at least when it came to this insurrection, it's quite clear, this comes from part of what harry was talking about, that trump knew what he was doing. he may not have been the best coup plotter ever, he may not been highly competent, but he was not a blithering idiot, and he was not so out of it that he did not understand what his objectives were and the pieces he put in place to try to accomplish them. seems like that is a significant legal consequence when it comes to charging the former president. >> yes, i mean, when it comes to manipulating the truth and understanding how his rhetoric impacts an audience, trump is incredibly savvy, and it is a mistake to underestimate him. he knew exactly what he was doing every time he tweeted, when he would repeatedly say things you know, out loud that he had been told by his advisers

were not true about voter fraud, about stuffed suitcases, about, you know, the election being rigged. and i think that what this gets to, the big question for me is will the justice department charge trump with incitement to insurrection, 18 usc 2383. there's a high bar there that requires, you know, showing that he intended for lawless action to happen and that it was likely to happen, but all of these other pieces about the kind of -- the foresight and his actions after the fact, the tweeting about mike pence losing courage, the wanting to be there with the crowd. in my mind clears the first amendment hurdle, but i wonder if the department of justice has the cajones to take that on. i'm curious what harry has to say. we've debated this offline. >> let's take a look at one piece of sound we put together here. this is kind of like a greatest

hits mashup from the hearings that go to this question of what trump was saying versus what was real and it illuminates just how aware he was of the reality and the contrast with what he was saying. so let's play this just as a reminder for anybody. it's kind of a greatest hits from these committee hearings. let's take a look at that. >> president trump is a 76-year-old man. he is not an impressionable child. just like everyone else in our country, he is responsible for his own actions and his own choices. >> mike pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn't, that will be a sad day for our country. >> did john eastman ever admit as far as you know in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral count act? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> that was a rigged election, but we're still fighting it, and you'll see what's going to

happen. >> i told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public were bull, was bull, that the claims of fraud were bull [ bleep ]. >> but you can't ever accept when they steal and rig and rob. can't accept it. >> mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said essentially that's not what i'm asking you to do. what i'm just asking you to do is just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. >> so harry comes back to the question that asha just posed, basically debating this amongst yourselves. the question of a lot of people that some of the obstruction, some of the things that trump -- some of the charges in which he's being referred to the doj are close to open and shut cases in some ways. the insurrection case is a tougher call. talk about that. >> it's very tough because you don't have the previous

agreement, and it's got a very checkered history. it's also -- and this is too much to talk about now, but it really dovetails. you can tell this from what raskin and cheney were saying with a potential effort to disqualify him under the constitution. he did say, well, we're going to try to be peaceful here. he did try to, you know, feather his nest, but i think the overall -- the charges are strong, but they have -- they're always very hard and are fraught with first amendment type defenses. this will be jack smith's number one most difficult call, and i think it will have something to do with whether or not they're going to really go for the gold ring of actually disqualifying him under the constitution. that's the number one upside of doing the charge. otherwise they have two very solid ones that they can just rest on. >> david, i guess i ask you this question as we kind of come to

the -- as we sit here again, we come desperate to kind of put some more meat on these bones. i'm going to ask you the highest level kind of question. i know you were digging into what we get, as it comes off the presses, you're reading these transcripts and taking a look and looking for insight into both what they tell us more that we didn't know about trump world and how it operated on one level, how this insurrection played out on another, and then what the legal implications are. i'm interested in what your biggest takeaways are as we get more and more of this information and you get more and more time to study it on all of those fronts and any of those that are particularly important to you. >> it's an important conversation, it is clear by the january 6th committee's work that donald trump violated the spirit of the law, and when asha and harry are referring to is the department of justice actually proved he violated the letter of the law, but the january 6th did something very important for the american people. they issued conclusions. now, we'll see how it appears in

the report, but by making the referrals, what they did is they issued essentially conclusions of law, not -- but from the january 6th committee's perspective, they said all the evidence, we believe that donald trump committed these following four violations of law, and we believe that others conspired in that as well, meadows and others, and the reason that's so important, john, and what they did for the country is so critical is consider the moeller report, moeller. ham strung by department of justice policy and by attorney general barr's obfuscation, i can't issue conclusions. here's the information i have, but i can't help you understand it. the january 6th committee told you, no, we're going to tell you what we believe happened. we believe the former president incited an insurrection. the interesting thing is for the department of justice to prove it, much of the focus is around january 6th and the days immediately preceding.

i actually think this started long before the election. donald trump laid the predicate saying the election would be stolen if he didn't win. he reminded the american people this was stolen and then he issued the invitation for people to come to d.c. around january 6th. nobody knows what happens on january 6th, only the president created this narrative that you must come to the capitol for a very specific purpose, and then he went and issued the charge to go to the capitol as a strength, not a weakness. that is an effort to incite an insurrection. what the january 6th committee showed us is the former president is guilty as charged. >> david we had a little bit of audio issues with you there, but i think your message came throw loud and clear. thank you for taking this time with us. all of you are brilliant and fabulous. after the break, from high stakes visit by a world leader to criminal referrals for an unprecedented coup plot, we saw a massive pileup on the highway of history.

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life, freedom and security of ukrainians. it will define whether it will be a democracy of ukrainians and for americans, for all.

this battle cannot be frozen or postponed. it cannot be ignored hoping that the ocean or something else will provide a protection. the world is too interconnected and interdependent to allow someone to stay aside and at the same time to feel safe when such a battle continues. our two nations are alive in this battle, and next year will be a turning point, i know it, the point when ukrainian courage and american resolve must guarantee the future of our common freedom, the freedom of people who stand for their values. your money is not charity. it's an investment in the global security and democracy. >> ukrainian president volodymyr

zelenskyy in his address last night to congress laying out what he believes is at stake in the war to russia and ukraine casting that battle as one for freedom and democracy, the future of the world in some ways at stake. it was just one incredible moment in what has become one of the most significant weeks for the future of democracy here in the united states in recent history. this week the january 6th select committee, of course, recommended criminal charges for the former president of the united states, donald trump, after finding him responsible for fomenting an insurrection against his own government to overturn a free and fair election in the united states. joining us now to recap the week, we have nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss. michael, i want to talk to you about zelenskyy and i want to talk to you about trump, but the first thing i want to talk about is zelenskyy and trump. in this week in which the juxtaposition between zelenskyy and the symbolic import of him in the world as kind of an

avatar of freedom and democracy, a job that what used to belong almost exclusively to presidents of the united states. on the other side, donald trump someone who has become seen, that the committee basically says is a vandal and a desecrater of those same democratic norms, institutions and aspirations that zelenskyy's now synonymous with, it's just the juxtaposition is like about as cinematic as anything i've seen in my life covering politics, and i'm curious what your thoughts are of seeing those two stories playing out on a split screen. >> it's almost like a tv show where you've got two plots and each reinforces the other, and what is the lesson. you know, go back to thomas jefferson with all of his flaws, he was one of the inventors of democracy, and he hoped that democracy would work so well in the united states and, you know, enliven the minds of men and women so that what he called the contagion of liberty would spread around the world, and if jefferson were to come back, he

would love the fact that ukrainians love freedom, love democracy so much that they're willing to give their lives for it and have been doing. one of the things i loved about last night, john, do you remember when zelenskyy was referring to bastone and the battle of the bulge as an example of when democracy was in danger and americans fought and finally prevailed, americans and western allies. it reminded me of the fact that in july of 1961 john kennedy was president, and nikita khrushchev and the russians were saying we're going to take over all of berlin, including west berlin, even though international law did not give them that right, and kennedy went on tv, and he said i know people are saying that west berlin is military -- militarily indefensible, he said, but so was bastone, the same town in belgium that americans and western allies

helped to preserve during the battle of the bulge, and i love the fact that zelenskyy used exactly that example. >> let's hear that now, actually, michael, just because you cite it and it was a powerful moment in the speech. let's listen to zelenskyy comparing the ukrainian fight going on now with the battle of the bulge. >> wonderful. >> the russians' tactic is primitive. they burn down and destroy everything they see. they send thugs to the front lines. they send convicts to the war. they threw everything against us similar to the other tyranny, which is in the battle of the bulge. through everything it had the free world, just like the brave american soldiers which held their lands and fought back hitler's forces during the christmas of 1944, brave ukrainian soldiers are doing the

same to putin's forces this christmas. [ applause ] ukraine holds its lines and will never surrender. >> so michael, you know, the word that gets applied to zelenskyy is churchillian, there's a time you would have said that seems like an overstatement, now not, right? the guy has gone in ten months from being someone who was seen as not up to the job and in some cases kind of was worse than that among ukrainians and others to someone who's genuine churchillian. it took churchill 70 years to become churchillian, that's 70 years from his birth to the point where world war ii is happening. this guy went from nothing to churchillian genuinely in ten months.

i don't know that i've ever seen -- i mean at least not in my lifetime, someone that is this steep where he's genuinely earned the accolades that he has gotten, universal accolades, and he's earned it genuinely, he's earned it very quickly. i don't know that i've ever seen a performance quite like this. it's really quite astonishing how far he's come and what he's accomplished for his country and for the cause of democracy in just ten months. >> totally agree, and if i might make a seasonal holiday reference to the film "it's a wonderful life," 1946, you know, the whole idea of that film is what would the town of bedford falls have been like if harry bailey had not existed. so i would say the same thing about zelenskyy. what would have happened in ukraine if the russians had invaded and they had a different kind of person as their president than zelenskyy, someone who was less courageous, who was less articulate, who was

less forthright, and was less willing to give up his life if necessary, which zelenskyy has been doing every single hour, not least in traveling to the united states. that's a very dangerous trip he took. you know, there was maximum security, but you can't ever protect someone 100%. >> and here's the other thing, michael, i go back to my trump question. we can talk all day about donald trump, you and i have in the past, and we probably will again in the future, but the thing about zelenskyy is that it's been that almost every time you learn something new about him, your appreciation for him grows. in this period when he has stepped into the breach, into a moment of great crisis, opportunity to be a hero, and he has taken on and become a hero by being brave, by being resourceful and brave and committed and passionate, all those things. the more you learn, the more you admire him. donald trump it seems like is the exact opposite in the sense that the more that we learn, the more that comes out from the 1/6 committee and all of the other

investigations, the more we realize just what a betrayer of democratic ideals and traditions and norms he was, and just what a vandal he was against our constitutional order. it just -- every time you think you couldn't think worse of him you get some new information and it makes you think even worse. >> look at this, you're absolutely right, zelenskyy who grew up in ukraine which had all sorts of governments during his relatively short lifetime loves democracy. wants to reject oppressors like the russians, is willing to give his life for it, is willing to motivate other ukrainians to do the same. now, you know, let's take that whole lesson to the united states and donald trump. has donald trump ever said or done anything that gives you, john, the idea that he understands what democracy is? that he values it, that he knows where it came from, that he reveres it, that he feels it's essential to the united states. you know, he's either

indifferent to democracy or contemptuous of it or both, best example of that was the sixth of january, which i see, i think you'd agree with me, as an extremely close call. vice president pence, according to the january 6th committee was, what, 40 yards away from an advancing mob. other leaders of congress were in danger of being killed or taken hostage or maybe even tortured according to various different stories. you know, that's how close we were, and there is always the possibility, which we will never know, that donald trump was intending to react to all of this by saying there's this order, i'm going to respond by declaring martial law and who knows what's going to happen then. maybe we'll have to suspend the presidential inauguration of joe biden. we don't know that it would have happened, but it might have happened. that's how close we came. anyone else who has been president of the united states and we've had some good ones and

some terrible ones, would have said, you know, my political career is not important enough to jeopardize democracy in this country and possibly for it to turn into an authoritarian brutal system. donald trump every indication is from these january 6th hearings will find out more with the report, that he was happy to do that in two seconds if necessary. >> mike, we're going to take a break. i will say one other difference, not only does zelenskyy understand democracy and trump gives evidence that he does, zelenskyy is willing to die for his democracy every single day and for his country, and there's never been any evidence that donald trump would come remotely close to doing the same. >> trump has told people who work with him that people who jeopardize their lives for their country, the united states are chumps and suckers. >> there you go. >> and to get back to "it's a wonderful life," that's exactly what mr. potter said of people who are willing to live their lives the ogre of that film. >> not churchillian. after a bombshell report by

"the new york times" suggested that key details of congressman elect george santos's biography might be fiction, there's new reporting casting doubt on even more lemts of his back story, his biography, michael beschloss is sticking with us. is this guy just a garden variety pathological liar or does he stand out in the whole historical pantheon of pathological liars that have populated our politics. we'll ask michael beschloss that after the break. after the break. ♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪

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for eight seasons back in the early you may remember a popular television show in america called "house." it starred hugh laurie, and his motto was something that i think pretty much everyone realizes is true, the motto was everyone lies, and that truth applies i would say even more to politics than other professions, but i got to say, george santos, that man is in a whole other category of preverication and fab ewe lichl and down right bs-ification. santos was the subject of a scathing "new york times" report suggesting that he lied to voters about where he went to school, his charity work, his former employment, pretty much everything and it turns out there's more. it's really kind of everything.

nbc news has not independently verified these reports, but "the daily beast" reveal that santos who ran as an openly gay republican never disclosed that hen finalized his vote to a woman just two weeks before he launched his campaign, and the forward reported this today, santos' emotional narrative of having jewish grandparents who fled europe during world war ii also appears to be untrue. the website myheritage.com lists santos's grandparents as having been born in brazil before the nazis rose it power. we're back with michael beschloss and david jolly, and i got to say, michael, i teased this in the previous block, but you got santos out on twitter today, he says the people of new york 3 district #nyo3 i have my story to tell. i want to assure everyone that i will address your questions that

i remain committed to deliver the results i campaigned on. happy holidays to all. thank you, congressman santos. >> and a happy holiday to you too. >> happy holiday to you too my friend. look, i mean, maybe all of it -- maybe this is all wrong, maybe, i don't think so. what we know right now, michael, i keep pointing out, you know, we have resume inflaters and liars and frauds and cheats throughout our politics on both sides over the history of america, one of the most common things we've ever seen. but this dude does seem like he's in a different category. i'm curious about that historically. how does he rank so far on the basis of what we know? >> this guy looks like as if he's in a stratosphere of his own, and i bet you that david jolly who's served in public life with a lot of good people would feel the same way. how much does it take for you to have the utter gal and the disgusting character to pretend that you have grandparents who fled the holocaust when you

really don't, and that's just the least of it. this guy, it's like out of a hitchcock film. oftentimes in politics you'll find someone who exaggerated their resume or didn't finish at a college that they claim they had a diploma from. that shouldn't be the case. we should know everything truthfully about everyone in public life, but i have never seen so much loaded -- so much alleged by someone that looks as if it was not true, and i believe the new york state attorney general is looking into this, investigating it, and she certainly should. the real danger is -- and we have no evidence of this yet, but you know, if you can put in these phantom people and stick them in congress, god knows who might control them. the whole idea of america is that we find out as much as possible about the life experience and background and views of a candidate for public

office, and this just flouts that rule. >> i'm going to ask jolly a question, we have a minute, but i want you to think, who before santos and trump was the biggest, fattest fraud in the history of american politics. think about that. jolly, very quickly, is any of this going to matter in terms of this guy's career in congress? what's it going to take for this guy to get kicked out? what happens now? >> yeah, great question, john. look, through the traditional lens of politics, the windows quickly closing on him to prove himself anything but a fraud, right? one or two media cycles without refuting the facts within "the times" story, the guy will forever be known as a frud a. through the nontraditional lens, can he create a national constituency around his own victim hood, being attacked by the deep state and the press like marjorie taylor greene, and laurie boebert, he more than likely will just be a one-term member of congress from the state of new york. perhaps he can nationalize a constituency around his own

fraud. >> jolly, you're down, beschloss about 15 seconds for you, biggest fattest fraud in the history of american politics before trump and santos? go. >> there's so many of them, john, you'll have to bring me on for three hours, but no one like this. all it reminds me of is roman ruska, the senator from the midwest who said that mediocre people should be represented on the supreme court. therefore a mediocre nominee was okay. given what david is saying, maybe this guy figures there's a lot of frauds in america, and they'll all be for him, they'll support him and make sure he stays in congress. >> beschloss, jolly, you're great. i'm done, i'm going to hang it up. thank you for being with us on this big day of news. "the beat" with ari melber, it starts right after this quick break. create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need

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