>> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. it took years and one court

ruling after another. appeal upon appeal. and even a trip to the knighted state supreme court. but today the american public finally has its hands on something donald trump as so doggedly sought to conceal. his tax returns. six years worth. and an unprecedented window and steube's financial picture. this public release, which, among other things, shows the don trump paid relatively little in taxes in the years before and during his presidency, is the end product of an effort undertaken by the house ways and needs committee. after securing their returns, which cover the years 2015 to 2020, that panel voted along party lengths to hand redacted versions of the returns to the public. before we get into what these thousands of pages reveal, in a way those who are who are not accountants can understand, it's worth noting how the committee got its hands on these returns in the first place. is the end result of its investigation into an irs

policy that mandates audits of returns filed by presidents and vice presidents. from nbc's reporting on this part of the story, quote, the committee found that the irs had largely not followed its own internal requirements. beginning to examine trump's returns only after the house panel inquired about the process. just one year of trump's returns was officially selected mandatory view while he was in office. and that audit of trump's 2016 taxes was not complete by the time he left the white house. according to the report. now, in addition to new information on his income and other financial figures, there are a number of new revelations. for instance, despite repeated boasts having to do with charitable donations, trump reported zero dollars in charitable giving in 2020. he also maintain foreign bank accounts while he was the president of united states. predictably trump spent his day throwing a fit, releasing statements, some buy video, suggesting the release is quote

going to lead to horrible things for so many people, and quote. and whether or not that's a threat of retaliation and one to be taken seriously, one thing is for sure, this is a day that donald trump hoped and merge very hard to make sure would never come to pass. it's where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. harry lippman is here from the u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general, and the host of the talking feds podcast. also joining us, russ beaten or, nor times reporter on investigations. his byline is on the new york times blockbuster reporting on the personal finances of donald trump. i think most of what we knew before today we learned from your journalism, your investigative reporting on this topic. so tell me what you learned today when these were released. >> thanks, nicole, for that. i think we learned that the trends we have seen in looking at 20 years of his tax returns before and the money inherited from his father, that continued

during his years in the white house the one thing that jumped out at me from this is that you see in this six years of returns to the one year we had a positive income was 2018, he reported like $24 million in taxable income. that was first time in a decade he had reported positive taxable income, according to our documents. and when you look at the documents closely, that all came $26 million of it, from assets that he had inherited from his father that he sold in that year. so even in the one year where it looks like he has turned the corners and is doing well, it's really a continuation of business business as he runs himself and built himself, not doing very well and be able to stabilize that with half a billion dollars inherited from his father and the other half billion dollars he got tied to his role on the apprentice and the endorsement deals that bought. >> in addition to all of the

sort of forensic accounting that has been done by you and your team at the time what came out today, there is a bigger piece of the story that i think you are getting at, ross, which is that the way he cane president was to convince americans that he could run the country's successful easy as businesses. anyone. enough people accepted that. it seems like between what you've reported that in what is clear today, is that none of that was ever true. he has wealth, but it is not because he was a superb businessman making lucrative unsuccessful deals like his company as potentially. >> you see that is history, not just when he ran for president, in stillness 22 was telling reporters he had already taken over ownership of his father's company. it was not true it will not be true for another 20 years. but that was how he presented

himself, and i think that's why he fought so hard to hide these documents from public view. that's just a huge part of his psyche, just the idea that he is wealthy on his own and it everything he's got he built himself, and it was through his business excellence. it's just wholly untrue. these businesses are losing tremendous amounts of money. you see that here again in the old post office where in 2020 and lost another $60 million. he, over his life and ownership of that building from the documents we have, was investing eight to $9 million in new cash every year just to keep that thing afloat before he finally got to sell it. to your point, it's right, sort of the fundamental lie of donald trump's life. >> russ, when you look at, it other than taking away his bragging rights, is there anything that confirms the claim he made over and over

again that the reason he couldn't release his taxes while he was a candidate for the presidency was because of an audit? >> a great question. you don't see that in the report that the house ways and means committee released. what they assert is that the presidential mandatory audit policy was not followed during his presidency. that seems true. but there's also a reference in there to something we reported, which is a massive refund of $73 million that he claimed starting tax year 2009. that audit had not been resolved by the time this window begins. committee's report makes reference to that, saying the audit period 2009 in 2013 were still unresolved and still lingering. they're unresolved issues in that. they never come back to that. we would not be uncommon for, and they say that is a reason the 2015 audit was delayed and would not be uncommon, from

what i've been told from people who work at the irs, for subsequent audits to be put on hold until something of that size had progressed. but the upshot, you're right, is that he was not completely audited during those years. the irs makes clear they have no aspiration to complete the audit in the focusing on a few companies. it does seem that this lingering issue that could total hundred million dollars in liability to him if he had to give that money back is still lingering 12 years later and after he's left the white house. >> you know, the other thing that lingers is a perception problem. i think at best. and some real questions, maybe oversight questions at worst. for the irs itself. your paper has also reported on extraordinary audits of andrew mccabe, coincidentally, in the span of 24 months, received audits that are described as autopsies without the benefit of death. this sort of way that we got this release, the mandatory

required audits of the sitting president hadn't happened. what are the legitimate questions on the table now for the irs? >> i think it's an excellent question and when i just alluded to is wide as the president, former president, and the irs still have an unresolved issue over 100 million dollars from 12 years ago? obviously the irs is not back down on that. trump has not backed down on it. why is it still lingering? why did the iris not sign more people to do this? there's a remarkable line in some of the reports that they initially have one person looking at these tax returns. there are 500 tax, business trends taxes trump files everywhere. it's impossible to look at those with one person. after our article bag assigned a total of three people to it. it's kind of embarrassed me to say the new york times had three of us working on this for almost six years. and we're not the irs.

it's insane that's where we are. these kind of questions are lingering for more than a decade, with that kind of money on the table, while he has influence over the irs. and the irs is really not doing anything to look, in total, at his businesses, and how money flows between the two entities. >> harry, it is at this point only fair to say we don't know what we don't know, but from the outside it looks exactly as russ described it, that new york times could devote three people and to investigate this, it happens to be the same number of people the irs had. what is your reaction? and then i want to go through some of the things we've been talking about, about how we now know for certain that the reputation of a successful swashbuckling businessman was always a hoax. >> sure. look, we don't know what we don't know, but everything we have learned has not taken us by surprise. there has been a peace with the

fundamental man that he is, the brazenness, the shamelessness and the dishonesty and we did have of course because of russ and his colleagues have a good reporting already, the top line here has to be, well, two things i would say, the losses are gargantuan. we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars year after year after year. that's true losses. his vaunted empire was simply gushing red ink and that's all it was doing. the only way, as best i can tell, he ever made any money at all, was from cashing in things that his father had given him or a couple of deals where real estate appreciated. that's it. but what you were just talking about is at least the second headline here is what the hell? he's a complicated taxpayer, fine. but not doing it at all? and then only assigning one

person? and even to this day the iris is basically saying, oh it's so complicated that kind of throwing out up their hands. how can pour a little us be doing this, were outgunned by being mr. taxpayer trump. that is bizarre and not credible. so it turns out the very reason that this motion to get the taxes initiated, to find out about the audit program was very well taken, notwithstanding everything you hear trump and marjorie taylor greene saying today. it's a very good, thing on top of everything else, that we learned about this kind of massive failure to go forward with a required mandatory audit. >> harry, i want to turn to his foreign bank account, but let me first play what he said in a presidential debate in 2020. what >> we don't know all of his business dealings, but we

have been told, to investigative reporting, that he owes about 600 and $50 million to wall street and foreign banks. or maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he has paid nothing in federal taxes because the only years anybody's ever seen as a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he's trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax -- >> that makes me smart. >> that was as much a part of his identity as anything, harry litman. from the start he has been asked not what you do for your country asked wet for your country can do for you. i just want to repeat, everyone's donning their green eyeshades and going through the fine print, and that's going to come discords lots and lots of revelations but at its most

basic, we have known this since back then. we've known it from the smog, non denial of a smile or denials of. it we've known that he has been hiding things, and that was the real reason he wanted to avoid, and none of this takes us by great surprise. and it fills in a picture that has really emerged this year, with increasing specificity, the it's time for accountability to follow. but this guy is just, at worst he looked to be, years ago and everything the reporters, found everything is denied, and it just turned out to be true and he turned out to be, to have a secret power of shamelessness and lying. >> ross, i want to play one more soundbite from the debate a few years later.

this was still opaque to the voting public. but what we do learn, i think today, and again, it's something that was pro, but i believe this was the most clear it is. that he had a bank account in china, from 2015 to 2017, according to his tax returns. let me show you what he said when my colleague asked him about doing business in china in a presidential debate. >> a report this week, which was referenced, does indicate that your company is a bank account in china. so how can voters know that you don't have any foreign conflicts of interests? >> i have many bank accounts and they're all listed in their all over the place. i was a businessman doing business. the bank account you referring to, which is, everybody knows about, it it's listed, the bank account was in 2013. that's what it was. it was open in 2013. it was closed in 2015, i believe. and then i decided, because i

was thinking about doing a deal on china, like millions of other people, i was thinking about, it and i decided i'm not gonna do it, didn't like, it decided not to do it, and an account open, and then i closed it. excuse me. and then, unlike him, where he's vice president and he does business, i then decided to run for president after that. that was before. so i closed it before i even ran for president let alone became president. big difference. >> russ, those are statements on the debate stage aren't true. >> that china account were stayed open for a long time. he was referring to an article we written a couple of weeks before that. he does open accounts in most places where he has any kind of cash business he has accounts in scotland, in the uk, in the different countries where he has licensing deals. i don't know that there's a nefarious thing in that.

it is interesting how widespread his businesses are. there are 1 million ways that if someone wanted to get him cash and have it look like a business transaction but not really be one, that would be very simple. you don't need unaccounted china to do that. you could just read to thousand rooms at the old post office hotel for the weekend and not show up. and that would be a huge gift to him that would have the patina of legitimacy to it and would be not discoverable by our financial disclosure forms or even these tax returns. >> you know, harry, to your point before about a bigger picture, there was a sense when questions of trump's criminality dominated the conversation about his presidency. the norm busting sort of receded. but in a lot of ways the norm of releasing your taxes and your candidate for a public office, that norm falling without a human cry, lead to

some of the biggest lingering questions about possible corruption of the trump era. you still had jared kushner at the trough of middle east sovereign wealth. you had steve mnuchin raising money from people who was treasury secretary, he was a policy maker of great influence to their fortunes. all of that became secondary to questions about criminality and coordination with russia. but i wonder if you think the country has the appetite to debate having stronger laws around disclosures and transparencies when it comes to a candidate's finances. >> to your point, it's just spot on. all of the, in the first few months i would say, going to maybe the firing of comey in march, of 2017, all the themes were out there on the table. the important points were an open hand for us, and they just

continued to play out in increasingly precarious and republic threatening ways. but they were all before us and part of what historians will be doing is excavating the role of the american people and look, we are coming along way, it's the end of the year, a lot of people are saying we have turned a corner. i think we have. we still have to reckon with the fact that minutes after the insurrection, some 120 plus republicans vote to nullify the election. some are still in that camp. but it's all been done. there's no way than any of those apologist can say well, it took us by surprise. it really was laid out so clearly. do american people have the appetite? i think so. this is what happened after watergate, a general move for transparency. it's hard to be against

transparency. the real question is, whether the gop will permit it. if there were a, still, a democrat majority in the house, i think they would go for more transparency and be a very hard thing to object to. but that, the sort of more specific of republican politics, still the candidate for president, astonishingly, and are the bigger impediments rather than the will of the american people. this year, and i think the last midterms, showed the american people still did have the interest and the will to know what happened and reject the assault on democracy the trump represents. >> it is always good to remind ourselves of that pocket of good news. but really before today most of what we knew was from russ's reporting in his colleagues. and when asked both to stick around a little longer. when we come back more on the release of donald trump's taxes and the final end of the ex

presidents campaign to hide them from the american public. a member of the committee that won this legal battle over his taxes, congresswoman judy chu will join the program, plus stunning intelligence and concerns over optics, in conversations between a sitting united states supreme court justice and his wife. we have new details on the capitol insurrection and the trump coup plot from the testimony of key witnesses to the january 6th select committee. later in the program, we'll talk to the man who starting revelations back in 2019 made the push to see trump's taxes even more urgent. we are talking about, of course, don trump's former fixer michael cohen. all those stories and more when the white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. nated over two hundred and fifty million dollars to charity. in fact, subaru is the largest corporate donor to the aspca... ...and the national park foundation.

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audit. nobody will release what it's under audit. i've had audits for 15 or 16 years. i don't mind releasing. i'm under a routine audit, and soon as the auditory finished will be released. i'm not saying tax returns because as you know they're under audit. og, i never heard that. oh, she, i've never heard that. i've never heard that before. look, as i have told you, they are under audit. they have been for a long time. they're extremely complex. people wouldn't understand. so at some point i look forward to, frankly, i'd like to have people see my financial statement. because it's phenomenal. >> it's not up to you. >> i know it's not up to. me it's up to lawyers, and everything else. >> the guy who magically declassified things in his brain could never find a way to released his taxes to the

public. this day today is when he has sought to avoid for as long has he's been on the public stage. his tax returns from 2015 to 2020 are now, as of today, a matter of public record. joining us, democratic congresswoman judy chu of california, member the house ways and means committee, harry and max are with us as well. tell me your reaction. you see is before we. have you had time to moldova. whether, are for you, the revelations? >> well, for one thing, he is not the great businessman that he claimed to be when he was running. he was able to pay only $750 in taxes in 2016 and 17 due to these mammoth business losses reporting $30 million in earning but then also $60 million in losses. this is something that has to be investigated in terms of the accuracy of these net operating

loss carryovers. but the other thing is that struck me was how much manipulation there wise in terms of his deductions. he had so many questionable deductions that the joint committee on taxation pointed out that should have been investigated, for instance the charitable deduction of some conservation he claimed $21 million in deductions. that's questionable. the loan to the kids was not alone or was it a gift tax and was that he is way of evading a give tax that he would've had to pay? and then there were he is business deductions, which magically equaled, dollar for dollar, the amount of income for those businesses. well it is questionable as to whether those really were business deductions or were they personal expenses? that should have been

investigated. so there were many questions raised. >> congresswoman, the irs has its own criminal enforcement division to. you have questions for them about why none of those were investigated? >> i have many questions as to why there was only one agent assigned to the mandatory tax audit and why they did not start the mandatory tax audit until chairman richard neil of the ways and means committee wrote a question about releasing the tax returns. in reality, there should have been a minimum, at least five agents assigned to this, and they should have had, amongst them, a foreign tax specialist, and financial product specialist. but this agent actually said that they didn't need the special list and he could handle it all and took the words of these accountants at

face value, not questioning it. that is what is so apparently wrong in this process, and why we actually wrote legislation after we saw this to ensure that there is a mandatory tax audit that is reported on continuously to the public and where there are parameters for when they should be reported on and also where they would actually release the president's taxes. >> congresswoman, i think i remember reading some where this might be happening, but is an inspective spur inspector general review of how trump's taxes were both handled and investigated, to your point, only one agents assigned to them, and not released to congress, would you like to see the iris investigate itself? or would you like your colleagues in the senate to come to hearings? what would you like to see happen to get answers?

>> i would certainly like to see an inspector general report on what happened. i would like to see a, if anything that was said that would show us why it happened the way it did. we can surmise that this also has something to do with the starvation of resources to the irs over this last decade, in reach 30% in the tax experts have declined and were 70% of the audits of the wealthy have declined. so yes, i would like to see that, though i have to say that now, with the house being taken over by republicans, this will have to be in the purview of the senate over the next two years. >> to have larger questions about the politicization of the irs, given the new york times reporting about the extraordinary audits of jim comey and andrew mccabe and the handling of trump's tax returns and audits?

>> i do have questions about how these decisions were made during these last four years. we certainly saw the pushback on our requests for the tax returns over and over again. and we were rebuffed many times, even though we had the right. of course our chairman had the right to see these returns, and yet the commissioners there, of course, treasury secretary mnuchin, rebuffed our attempts each and every time. and so we need to get the politicization out of the irs and we need to have a light shined on the process by which these mandatory presidential audits are don. >> i wanna bring russ buettner

back into the conversation. the hurdles put in front of congress have an echo, i think, in some of the hurdles that you all face with investigating his taxes. this is something, almost more than anything else, donald trump did not want into the public arena. what do you think the next phase of accountability is, now that we have this information? >> i think the most important things might happen in private. the congresswoman mentioned the 21 million dollar charitable donation, that was really an audacious claim. it was fallow property that he tried to develop and failed, so he got an appraisal that said it was worth $21 million, based on the idea that it was developable. the irs hasn't looked at it and said maybe it's worth $8 million, maybe it's worth nothing is a tax deduction. those kind of things could have a big impact on him.

he's not terribly cash rich from what we can tell. also, is a mentioned, that audit has been outstanding for ten, 12 years, if that goes against him that could be as much as 100 million dollars or more that we would have to come up with. he said is possession for all these years, but could very well have to pay back the irs. some of those things will happen in private. we may never know what they are. and i do think it would be interesting to see if there is some kind of real effort to figure out how we would deal with another president who has as many ways to be conflicted to storm trump has. i don't think it is never happened before. and how we would figure that out, how the american people should know. the final disclosure system is wholly inadequate for this purpose, even releasing tax returns is really not sufficient to figure out the ways that someone might be conflicted or might be receiving money in illicit ways, and so would be interesting to see an effort to address it.

>> is a congresswoman it has been. he reveals for the very first time that he was concerned that don trump was conflicted and u.s. foreign policy was wrapped into don trump's business interest in turkey with air long in other countries. these words suspicions held by the advisor. how do we have a system where -- >> all of the cautionary institutional barriers were broken or dissembled. look, what do other presidents do they, put all their assets into a trust and they have no stake in what happened in their businesses. trump didn't do this. again and again he simply broke the rules and we have so much

splaying to do. russ is right about those two ticket items. as the congresswoman pointed out, we have two dozen issues that come up in the deductions which are very poorly documents say the least, and expenses will fishy's can be. the w we get to the end of that trail? it seems unlikely to be the full accountability will happen here but looking forward the notion that we just can't permit the already institutional safeguards to be simply demolished and in fact we had to strengthen them. that's got to be the lessons. of course to learn that we, need some cooperation from congress. that's where things remain tenuous. >> congresswoman, one last question for you, if you could just step back and share any

analysis in this question that i have had. do you think he worked so hard to hide his taxes from the public because he didn't want people to see how little he made he paid in taxes? what is your sense of what he was trying so hard to hide? >> i would think that the major issue is that he had so many businesses, business losses that would be impossible for him to claim that he was the great incredible businessman that he portrayed himself as. these losses are enormous, and the fact that that was the way that he used to not pay taxes was very instrumental for his

survival. but nonetheless, it was that image that i think he was riding on that clearly is not a correct detection considering what we have seen so far. >> amazing. the guy behind the curtain. congresswoman judy chu, harry litman, and russ buettner, thank you so much for starting us off today. we are grateful. next for us, the incredible extraordinary and historic back and forth between the january 6th select committee and the head of donald trump's security detail. what he knew before january six. we'll tell you about it. we'll tell you about it.

>> we continue to learn more stunning new details every single day from the january 6th elect committee. it's releasing hundreds of pages of transcripts that give us a deeper look inside the chaos before the capitol attack an insurrection. they reveal testimony from trump aides that raise more questions than they answer including the many warring warnings that went unheeded the colossal intelligence failure, in the world's words of stephenson, former capitol police chief. in today's batch of transcripts we also got trump aide and former secret service agent tony ornato's testimony, in which the committee is skeptical of his inability to recall seeing any of the intel on january 6th or to think up a specific or general memory of this 12 minute phone call on

january six with the ex presidents lead secret service agents. seems like something one would remember. they told one of the reason the national guard deployment was delayed three hours and three minutes was concerns from higher ups over optics. major general william walker told the committee this, quote, i think it would've been a vastly different response if those were african americans trying to breach the capital. and quote. let's bring in washington post deputy national editor, phil rucker, plus clint ross, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division. now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy institute, and different to miller's back, greater large for the bulwark. all are msnbc contributors. phil rucker, reserved for me like a strobe light. i can't figure out where to look. the transcripts are chock full of new pieces. not just of color but of really damning evidence of the way some of those people closest to trump testified and the depths

of commitment, really, to the coup plot itself. >> i think that's right, nicole, and what has been striking look at these transcripts is the breadth of the work of this committee. they didn't just get to a couple of people here and there, but they were talking to people from the inner sanctum of trump world and to read the transcripts you see how they think and how they are processing information and how this dialogue is taking shape. it's like the kind of material that those of us who cover the trump presidency would have only dreamed of having in realtime in those real moments, and now for the benefit of history we can really piece together in his throw away as possible what was happening on the sixth and the run up to the six, and as best as we can, after what was going on in the former presidents mind. >> yeah, i mean, they get us all the way into that deep dark place, the ex presidents mind. let me read some of this new

transcript from -- question, and this is about the intel that they were in receipt of on january 3rd and fifth. question, the one for the fifth is in a dog's exhibit six and raises the probability of acts of civil disobedience and arrests is improbable for a few pro trump groups, which is says translates to about 20 to 45% chance. how did you interpret this improbable level of risk? signed there is not a high level are not a strong possibility of arrest or civil disobedience associated with them. question, after reading the jenny third assessment did you come away thinking that violence will be impossible? sund, it doesn't mean that we are seeing a significant issue coming down the pike that we knew. we knew we were expecting we're gonna have some pockets of some people that are gonna be problematic, but not wide-ranging violence, no.

>> this stream of intelligence does seem to point squarely to an intelligence failure, whereas what channel harmon, who was here yesterday and ahead of homeland security in d.c. was saying, led him to believe there would be a mash cabals g event in d.c.. why the disparate streams of information going into law enforcement? >> yeah, it's interesting it sounds like hear no evil see no evil. you get what you want based on the l intelligence you select how you interpreted. it was very clear, nicole. we have seen in december. they had already been violence on the streets of washington d.c.. it was well known, we've seen it in december, and everyone knew and you can even see it that day that there were people massed on the mall. you heard it from the wet rhetoric from the night before, starting on january 5th and the sixth, so there's no real surprise that it could get out of control, and then when you have the president, also the commander-in-chief for the military, priming the audience with, hey let's go to the capitol, let's walk to the

capital. that's a direction, that's intention, that is why we saw what happened that day. and so i don't think anyone was that surprised about what happened in two or maybe the degree to which got out of control was shocking to everyone, probably because we have never seen anything like that in american history, but for the most hard it was not a surprise what occurred on that day. you could see it in the open source. now we see through to the reports were lots of people reporting the in the department of corrections that there was intelligence, that there were accounts of people trying to actually bring a plot to fold on that day. when i hear those reports, just like you read off there, i just have to laugh. it really sounds like somebody was going to see what they want in the information they get. >> okay, i save the best for last, tim. this is from the transcript with ginni thomas. are you ready? is everybody ready? >> give it to me. >> question, this is about ginni's texts with mark meadows.

sort of gets to a love triangle. it's riveting. meadows responds, this is the fight of good versus evil. evil always looks like the victor until it came kings triumphs do not grow weary in well doing. the fight continues. and then you responded, ginni thomas responded, quote, thank you, needed that, this plus a conversation with my best friend just now, i will try to keep holding on. question, to a recall who you were afraid to and you said you just had a conversation with your best friend? ginni thomas, it looks like it was my husband. question, to remember what you talked to justice clarence thomas about the made you feel better and allowed you to say, quote, keep hanging on? ginni thomas, i wish i could remember, but i have no memory of the specifics. my husband often administers spousal support to the wife

that's upset. so i assume that's what it was. he is my best friend. mark meadows is getting pretty close, though. jim, i have no words. you're gonna have to pick it up from here. >> i also have no words because my breath has been taking away from philip rucker the christmas tree, in between that and then ginni thomas text i'm struggling myself, but i'll do my best. look, we've been saying this ever since we've been on this show, where i have said, this needs to be looked into. what clarence thomas knew about attempted coup, and what his involvement was needs to be looked into. it is not a stretch to say that there are concerns that need to be raised. what were they talking about at the dinner table? if ginni thomas is texting the chief of staff about a cool, where they're trying to make, i guess, donald trump the king of kings, feels a little

sacrilegious around christmas, i don't think then she is talking about her husband about the weather at the dinner table, right? they are also having these sorts of conversations. then thomas is the one who descends on various court hearings. i think that this bears out more investigation. it's obviously deeply concerning, you know, that the supreme court justice could and have at some level had a relationship with the six effort to overturn the election. and my only other observation with the text is, those people were close to being right. it was a fight about for good versus evil, they just know what side they were on. >> there's so much more to say and ask about ginni thomas's text messages and her conversation with her best friend and the fight that right after a best friend comes mark meadows. i'm gonna ask you all to stick around through a quick break. we'll all be back after that. all be back after that

>> we are back with philip rucker and is fabulous christmas she. i'm gonna go back to this ginni thomas transcript. she asked you remember what you talked to justice thomas about the made you feel better in large it is, a quote, keep hanging on. ginni thomas says, i wish i could remember, but i have no memory of the specifics. liz cheney, to tory ornato, the one-time secret service agent, says to ornato, the fbi, doj,

u.s. secret service, department of homeland security prevented intel and you are you are not aware of it? and you forwarded a memo about the potential for violence i believe you do that on january 4th? total in argos history liz cheney, ma'am, i received hundreds of emails. trying to do my best. it's been almost two years now. i don't recall having that knowledge. cheney, so you didn't read the intelligence and you didn't read the article that you forwarded? that's your testimony? ornato, i don't know if i did, ma'am. i'm sorry, i just don't recall. stephen miller got a lot of things, so don trump jr.. i wonder, as doj digs into potential criminality around january 6th do, you think peoples memories will come back, phil? >> it could. look, this was a historic day in this country and i think if you are in a position of leadership as tony ornato was on the day, these are the types of things they will probably

stick with you, but who knows what his memory is? we can't speak for him or virginia thomas. it is important to keep in mind, though, that this was not a criminal proceeding. it was a house investigation. it's a political act. certainly they are testifying under oath here, but it doesn't have the same criminal consequences it would have an injustice department investigation. but these transcripts are now part of the public record, which means fbi and others who are actively investigating all of this right now in the justice department making decision about whether to bring charges and against two, they have access to all this material. they're conducting, obviously, the grand jury conducting some of their own interviews. and so it certainly is a different context in that criminal investigation with different consequences and stakes for this material can be used in that form as well. >> jim, i have one more a chunk of ginni thomas's transcript. congressman jamie raskin asked

her, mrs. thomas, what was the most significant case of voter fraud you are concerned with after the election took place. this is ginni thomas. thank you for the question, congressman raskin i cannot say at the time i was familiar with any specific evidence. i was just hearing it from news reports and friends on the ground. grassroots activists who were inside various polling praises the founding suspicious so i don't know. i was not an expert on the fraud and irregularities that we're starting to be talked about. ginni thomas drafted a letter to go the other direction she. sent a letter to miller to have electors replaced because she argued there is evidence of voter fraud, which under questioning from congressional committee she said she never knew anything about. >> what a great question for congressman raskin. some of the sometimes for these liars it's best to ask them open-ended questions and get them to expose themselves.

everyone was complicit it's not just her. none of them had specific voter fraud issues because there weren't any, right. there was a group of people that imagine in hallucinated be the voting machine voting fraud issues were untrue, and then there was another batch of people that really just want to -- and that's what it comes down. to the right and supreme court justice wanted on trump to be in power against the will of the people that she was willing to go along with anything that would, in her view, advance that goal and the specifics, the truth, be damned. this testimony shows that in her lack of willingness to provide specific answers lead to other questions that were asked to remember what she did on this very historic day shows that that was the real underlying motivation, keeping donald trump in power against the will of the people, not any legitimate grievance.

>>, philip rucker clint watts, still ahead for us michael cohen on how the release of daunte tax returns puts his shadowy business empire under the lights. we'll talk about what it reveals. the next hour deadline white house of darts after a quick break. don't do any work awaiting where. where.

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mr. trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes, such as trying to be listed amongst the wealthiest people in forbes, and deflated

his assets to reduce his real estate taxes, when telling me in 2008 or 2009 that he was cutting employees salaries in half, including mine. he showed me what he claims a 10 million dollar irs tax refund. and he said that he could not believe how stupid the government was for giving someone like him that much money back. >> i again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. it was not surprising, but it was shocking, and galling. donald trump, the businessman turned american president, took pride, reveled in taking full advantage of the government for his own financial gain. that detail from trump's former lawyer, michael cohen, was yet another in a series of revelations about trump's tax paying habits that had come to light recent years, including the mammoth piece of reporting by the new york times, starting in 2020, that exposed to

trump's chronic losses and years of tax avoidance. but today an inflection point, a day that never seem like it would come, after years of attempting to keep his tax returns private, donald trump's returns have been made public. six years of, them from 2015 to 20, showing that he paid little in taxes before and during his presidency, and that he reported no charitable contributions in 2020. the public release of these returns follow a years-long court battle by the house ways and means committee. here's committee member lloyd dog yet on why in his view was uncovered. >> here is the most powerful man in the world, the self described clever genius, who brags of his wealth almost daily, and he did not pay the taxes that most modest wage earners in this country would pay. nothing in one year, $750 a year in others. all of this related to the claims for big losses, big

deductions, big credit, taking advantage of every loophole, and because of the storage of trump's internal revenue service did we don't know if how many of these were legal loopholes for the rich and how many of them were unjust in the illegal, because the irs didn't do the job of auditing. i think americans should be greatly outraged. >> as the public continues to sift through these never before seen tax returns, it's hard to forget this other message that michael cohen is shared with us. here's what he said back on the show just a few months ago about his former boss. >> let's stop the nonsense. let's go after the low lying flow hanging fruit. that the capone method. jury about, murder extortion, as they did with capone, let's get him on tax evasion. let's get this mussolini menace

behind bars, which is where he belongs. >> and that is where we begin the hour. joining us now the aforementioned former trump attorney, michael cohen. he's the host of the mea culpa podcast, and he's the author of the important new book revenge, how donald trump wrapped weaponized u.s. department of justice against his critic. david fair and gold is also here, new york times investigative reporter and an msnbc reporter who won a pulitzer prize while reporting at the washington post for his coverage of trump's charitable giving or lack thereof. >> i can't believe i said that on your show, but it turned out once again to be true. i seem to have been accurate again. i think that donald has, as you are probably put it, i think donald's time has come, and i think that there will be, he will have to reconcile with all of the things that he has done as it relates to his tax

returns, now that they have been exposed, and now they have been given to the public. >> let's put a pin in the political piece. i think it's jaw-dropping that his entire political identity was a hoax. in the words of some of the reporters that have been on here, it was all physically ally. let's deal with the legal implications. you heard the congressman there talk about potentially illegal conduct. michael cohen, you are a lawyer. what was me he had broken? >> first of all, i was a lawyer until i got involved with donald. that's a whole another story. what laws did he brake? we don't know. and to be honest with you, i don't think his response was 100 percent accurate, maybe even 50% accurate. and i say that because if there are loopholes that benefit the wealthy, the uber-rich in this case, that doesn't mean that it's illegal or improper for donald to take. the real question here, that we

now have access to his tax returns, which he so fought to protect, as we now know the truth about donald, we know that first and foremost he's not as rich as he claimed during all those years. okay, that's just one in a basket of lies. but what it also does is it proves what i had said at the time of my house oversight committee hearing, that he inflates his assets for his net worth, for his personal financial statement, so that you can bet benefits whether it's on loans, whether it's on insurance, whether it's trying to get a deal like the old post office, or any of the other acquisitions that he did. he takes the same assets and he devalues them for tax purposes. that's illegal in and of itself right there. and that is what i was referring to when i was on your show when we talked about his trip lights apartment, not

33,000 square feet and over 300 million, it's 11,000 square feet, and the price per square foot that he was referencing in the personal financial statement is completely overinflated. these were done within chant. and again, as i expressed, the intent was solely to give himself high up on that forbes list, which was incredibly important to him, but more than that it was to be able to use the personal financial statements so that he could benefit from that as well. >> michael, what do you think drove trump to fight so hard and to use his own treasury department, and we don't know what we don't know about what pressure he may have placed on the iris as well, to shield these returns from public view. was it not wanting people to see how often he failed in business? or was it not wanting people to see how litter he really paid in taxes? are they inextricably linked? what was he hiding?

>> everything. everything across the board, and then some. one of the things of course, again, is the fact that he's not as wealthy as he purported. but also he's clearly not as charitable as he wanted to purport. and then, on top of everything, the way that he used the system, for example, and i'm sure david can speak to this at length, but one of the things that he would do is, he will take worthless land at the back of some of the golf courses and he would then donate it as a deduction. the problem is that he would take that piece of property and he would value it the same as usable property despite the fact that this property was underwater, marshland. he would then take that property, deduct it, and it's not a proper deduction. that's how he ended up, again, with a 10 million dollar check pezzola more over the years.

>> is that illegal? i >> to be honest, there's a lot of people they will have to answer, including the people from the state who ended up accepting it and not challenging when he donated, for example acres, claiming that each acre was worth 1 million dollars. why do they just fall for whatever it was that trump and weisselberg and others said? i truly don't know the answer. but again, what it goes to is failures in our system of checks and balances, especially on the uber-rich theirs. a failure of checks and balances, and while he is responsible for that, because he put that down in the tax returns and so on, i think there are other people that need to be held accountable as well. >> david, i want to give you a two part question here and then let you go. one, what sticks out for you in terms of your first --

and to, where do things new to new buckets of questions are after seeing this today? >> i'll say two things that stand out. the first was trump before he took office would donate all his presidential salary. he doesn't need the money. the very common thing he had done with donations is entire life. he already tonight and doing this thing but i don't need the money, i'm gonna donate it. what we found before he took office was that he often didn't live up to those promises. what we see in these returns is apparently that he didn't do it again his. promised to donate his presidential sarah fowler easy to peter petered out in the last year of the presidency, we see no donations. zero and donations. that's one thing. the other thing, and i'm sure mike was not surprised by this, was we spent all this time talking about trump the businessman. what is he doing, he's a genius, what are his plans? i spent a lot of time figuring out what is different businesses what we're what we're doing in the only real success he had during his four years as president was due to his, father fred trump, the one

good year he had according to his tax returns was when he sold some of the last pieces of fred trump, who had been long dad, fred trump's real estate empire. all the elements, those lost money, fred trump from the grave was the only person who will donald trump's empire the entire time. >> michael cohen, does that explain the fervor to keep this secret, that he was not good at the business? >> yeah, and just to answer, david one of the other successful ventures that is part of is the adventure that with or nato that he doesn't even control. they control nearly professional. so when they refinance he had his percentage and that of course all goes from what occurred on the west side highway when you took over that property. but there are so many things that are coming out right now, the volume of information coming out and it's so enormous that it's gonna take time to

digest. one of the things that we have all seen as well is the way they manipulated the numbers, for example with these aircrafts under, for example, tagged the, a.g. trump aviation group. but the way the donald trump would set up these companies is that tag would have in these underneath them so one would be, for example, his trust, and the other one would be incorporated llc that they would use as an additional layer of protection. if you notice, a claimed, for example, that he had earned $860,000 for the use of the plane. but the expenses equaled exactly 806, or whatever the exact number was. that's extremely curious, especially if you are a forensic accountant or now the irs. but the same thing happened with the helicopters. and again, it's the same way they established the companies. the big elc, the sob llcs, and

it's also, again, difficult for the irs to track what's going on. now they have plenty of time in the wee plenty of people taking a look at all these documents. my feeling is these goose is cooked. >> his goose is cooked! speaking of, i guess plural is gays? speaking of gates. the perception problem for the irs is real, and significant, david. your colleagues have reported on increasing audits, autopsies without the benefit of death. for jim mccain. >> and michael cohen! >> and michael cohen. and on it, it was supposed to happen by law it never did for donald trump. what is the bucket of questions for the irs? >> there is two questions here that i have, one was the way that they treated trump when

they were present. they didn't do the audits they were supposed to do. the secretary was sort of -- trump all the time. lived in the hotel all the time. so that i arrested in seem to do what was required with this president but step back and look before they were presidents and you look at what st. michaels is talking about, the irs has trouble with dealing with big, accomplished people. donald trump isn't the first in america, but he is the most complex in taxes in america. and one that is assigned to a huge, serpentine tax returns. and the irs struggling to make heads or tails of it. they did know what they had their. that idea that if you have texture that is complex enough, the irs will hold up what's in them. and won't come after you for them? that's a really worrisome sign for tax enforcement in the entire country. >> michael you're right, you were also audited and revenge

deals. you describe yourself as a political prisoners. a lot of the focus is on the doj. you are also targeted by the irs. what are your questions for the irs? >> well, senator durbin put out a letter to the inspector general of the internal revenue service. and for my irs audits, the review, same extent that they're reviewing both comey and mccabe's. the interesting thing in my case, is in my entire life i have never filed a late tax return. i've never not paid taxes. in fact, the two years that trump, the brics man that he is. paid $750 as he is. and dispose revenge. i paid 100 and $50 million. and i'm a tax evader? i never received a letter from the iris. there was never an agent assigned, no overseas business, no overseas accounts, no nominee. every single dollar was deposited into capital one bank.

but nevertheless, i was given 48 hours to plead guilty to this crazy five count tax evasion. or they were filing an indictment that was gonna include my wife. and there was no way i was gonna put her through this. and especially in 48 hours. you don't have time to think. and to plan a strategy. but yet, they didn't do any of this with donald. and the question is, david, just before. he is lying. why did not they do it? i hope they continue to push the issue. not just on mine, but on mccabe, and comey, because all of these people are involved with donald. for whatever reasons there might be. and this is, exactly what he was hoping to do. to ultimately destroy our democracy. >> yes, and he has accounted for all of us in 2024. david, i wonder in all of the action in the senate as republicans are going to take over the house of representatives, i wonder if you can speak to these questions of politicization.

it does again seem like there does require now, that is, at least suspicious or unanswered. then there is answered. >> i think that's right, i think there will be a focus of the senate democrats going forward. they have a larger majority and control committees. i think they will be doing investigations of why weren't these audits done? why wasn't there auditing before he was president? we will get more answers out of them with the next two years. >> michael cohen, david, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. happy new year to you both! >> to you as well, and be safe! >> thank you, both of you. when we come back, the growing isolation of one vladimir putin as his war in ukraine continues to falter on the battlefield, there is a deepening divide between the russian president and the elite in his own country. many of whom, have mysteriously turned up dead in recent days. we'll bring you that new reporting after a quick break! and later in the program, our panel looks back on the air that it was!

democracy passed a major test at home and abroad. the legal peril facing the twice impeached president is beginning to snowball. we're coming back after the break! don't go anywhere! n't go anywhere! thankfully, we also have tide ultra-oxi with odor eliminators. between stains and odors, it can handle double trouble. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover, it's got to be tide. i remember the gift, it was one of those gifts that it just landed perfectly. i figured this is a great holiday present since i won't be with him for christmas. it was the best gift that i ever received, because it opened up my life. unwrap your family story, with ancestrydna. i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. my wife and i have three children.

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president vladimir putin began his war in ukraine. with hopes that this would be the beginning of his grand mission to reunify the former soviet union. but as we have seen over the last year, putin was wrong. and he severely misjudge the strength, was them, resiliency,

of the ukrainian military and people. he has suffered humiliating defeats on the battlefield, and rallied the international community behind ukraine. all while making putin upright on the national stage. but it seems that the russian president has grown more isolated in his own country. -- the washington post reports that putin wanted to keep a small circle of confidants, has become increasingly destined for much of the country's elite as the world continues to falter. with a divide opening up between those who wants putin to end the war. and those who want him to be more aggressive and suggesting a possible awakening of the kremlin's influence over the ruling class. but for those of us, putin, and unpredictable faith is for them. more than -- russians have died under mysterious circumstances in the last year. they have coined southern russian death syndrome. the phenomenon that has claimed the lives of a large number of

businessman, all the guard, some journalists. now joining us the former ambassador to russia, and msnbc analyst michael mcfaul. i don't believe in coincidences. who is killing all these russians? >> i don't know for sure. i want to be clear about that, it is not coincidence that so many of these russian business people fall out of windows, is striking, in terms of a way of killing them. this suggests to me that there is infighting amongst the kremlin elites, people that have circumstances they don't like, they face consequences. that's along the oligarchs, the businesspeople, and then the journalism and opposition is more clear cut. that's the regime either killing them, or trying to killing them as they did with navalny, because they know that putin is not as popular as they want the world to, believe you don't have to kill or imprison your enemies, i mean --

just went to jail for eight and a half years, because he said something about the war. you don't to put those people in jail if your war is popular, maybe this war is not as popular as some people believe. >> and i think one of the mistakes that we make from here, is thinking that, the effects and why. if that is the case, then he is going to be out of power or voted out. but that's not the case in russia. tell me if this is happening, what happens? >> you are getting exactly right, we super imposed that russia is a democracy, there's people in opposition to the president, he will be voted out of office! >> your days are numbered! >> it doesn't happen in russia. there hasn't been a free and fair election there for a long, long time. which is not to say that the folks around him, just as you are reporting, i can't think of a single interest group in russia that is benefiting from this war. and just because they are not speaking out against it doesn't mean that they support the war. right? even the military for goodness

sakes, this is a war that they did not want, they got dragged in by putin and his intelligence officers. it is going badly, they look bad, the russian business people, of course they do not support it, but, they do not have the ability to remove putin from office. and he is increasingly isolated, he's been isolated for a long, long time. for years and years, covid exacerbated that, he doesn't listen to any of his advisers today. and therefore the idea that a group can get together and convince him to stop the war, or to overthrow them, either of those scenarios i think are very unlikely. >> let me read more from this really shocking, atlantic reporting about southern russia and deaths. over the weekend, paulo, a sausage executive, a man who had express a dangerous lack of enthusiasm in putin's war in ukraine was found dead in a hotel just two days after one of his russian travel companion side of the same hotel. he was reported to have fallen

from his death from a hotel window. it is not uncommon to be told, we can come to you, or you can do the manly thing and commit suicide. take yourself off the chessboard. at least you have the agency of your own undoing. that's michael weiss, a journalist and the offer of a forthcoming book on the gru. the russian military agents-y. so did a fall out of his window? did he get pushed by an agent? or did you get a call that friend his family? made him feel like he had no option but to leave? all of these things are possible. he told me. do you agree and what does that mean for us? if they are getting people to either leap to their death, or pushing them to their death by threatening their family? is it time to move more aggressively to classify trump, i'm sorry, putin as a state sponsor of terrorism? >> well first, that reporting is just chilling that that is what is happening. and especially something that i know from other cases, they use

the threat against families all of the time. even if you're living in exile, your families are not, they use that all the time as a technique. and i think it emphasizes two things, one, terrorism works inside, threatening people as putin does, it makes people fearful, it doesn't motivate them. and i think that is part of the problem on the battlefield for the russian soldiers. they are fearful, they are there under coercion, but they are more not motivated to fight in the war. that is number one. but number two, he is a terrorist. he is a terrace that home, a terrorist in ukraine, and i have held the idea that russia should be designated as a state sponsor of terrorism. >> how do you think about president zelenskyy's address to the congress. but what do you think changed from his trip this year? >> well, i would hope that he reached out and connected to americans. it can be under strap, why do we care? where is ukraine?

fire way. and i thought, for me, listening to that speech, he explained why this is not just a fight between two sorted nations, it's a fight between dictatorship and democracy, it's a war just like world war ii, and where annexation is a part of it, and if we do not stop putin in ukraine that he will continue to march towards our nato allies, so i think he made the case very compellingly and, i hope that americans heard that message, and it was most certainly the message i took away. >> our viewers are so, i think moved by the ukrainian leader and the ukrainian people, it's amazing to me that some of the right criticized president zelenskyy. and slurred him, and talked about him having his hand out. do you think that partisan politics around the war in ukraine get better or worse in the new year? >> the call, you are the expert on american politics, not me. but i was very disturbed by

those comments. it made, you know, people not seeing the pig picture here. the idea that the slanderous things that he said, and i thought about, you know, back in 39 and 40 i'm listening to rachael maddow's fantastic podcast right now. reminding me, yes we did have those kind of voices in america. before world war ii. but look at how outrageous those voices now look. because we know what happened. i hope those people, when they are saying those things might think about those parallels to that earlier history. and think a little harder about making those kind of comments. this is a heroic figure, presidents lynskey, we don't get the chance to be around heroic figures very on in history. these are heroic people, they are literally fighting for freedom of their country, and for the rest of europe and the rest of the world. we are the leader of the free world, we have been for a long time, we should be in the future and that i think, means that we need to be supporting these heroic figures. zelenskyy, and the ukrainian

people. >> yeah, it's something to keep our eye on, because the fact that you have republicans taken control of one chamber. and some people on the right really on the fence, and somewhat indifferent to zelenskyy's heroic leadership of his country, or against russia's terroristic campaign, in ukraine is disturbing. former ambassador, michael mcfaul thank you for being with us today. and happy new year! >> happy new year! >> when we come back, our panel will look back on this very consequential year of 2022. they are that our democracy bounce back, and the law begin to catch up with a disgraced ex president. we will try to get to all of it after a quick break! stay with us! stay with us subaru retailers have supported over seventeen hundred hometown charities. (phil) have i witnessed and seen the impact of what we do? you bet i have. (kathryn) we have worked with so many amazing causes and made a difference. (vo) by the end of this year, subaru and our retailers

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day for america. a good day for democracy. it was a strong night for democrats. >> the american people showed that even in a midterm election. when the pendulum tends to swing to the out party. even under those conditions, the people are going to stanford democracy for freedom. >> in the last couple of weeks, a bunch of people who are die hard trump supporters are quitting trump. >> this is the first time that we have seen trump trailing

other republican since the early days of his primaries in 2016. >> donald trump's legal problems are stacking up yet again. a new york jury found his company guilty of tax fraud. >> we believe that the evidence described by my colleagues today, and a threat stumbled throughout our hearings. warrants a criminal referral of former president donald j trump. >> i think that the legal system is catching up with him. and i think he has run out of his stream of corrupt in terms of what he has been able to avoid. >> 2022 was a very good year for democracy, and a very bad year for the twice impeached now criminally referred disgraced ex president. our friend tylee sykes for the quote, it was a bad year from authoritarians. from putin, to wall scenario. who is defeated in the election. it was a good years,, weakening for democracy. and then the incredible shrinking former guy sulking

over his form florida layer. bracing himself for what is going to be a generally, leap new year for him. let's bring in state department official and msnbc contributor rick, and former u.s. attorney and now law professor at the at alabama. and also msnbc analyst. and i'll sharpton is here, msnbc's politicsnation host. now, this is the inflection point. this is joyce for aligning me on twitter. this is the last show of 2022. >> i think that we have had a very good here in terms of democracy. you see real significant pushback about voters and the fact that the red wing and it up less than a red puddle. the fact that we have seen donald trump meltdown like a snowman in july. and he is going into new year's eve with his whole reputation

tatted, because even those who said that we needed someone like donald trump, who was a very shrewd and hunting businessman, now sees that he is a loser of the highest order. according to his own taxes, and i think that when we look at even the georgia runoff, when they threw in so much money and lost the senate, and in fact the democrats gained a seat. i think that it was a good year for democracy, it was not a great year. but we faced the head went. we did not have the wind dialed back, we were increasing the headwind and we were able to survive it. >> joyce, your highs and lows for the 2022? >> so i hope we will look back on 2022 as the year that the fever dream broke. they are that the and evident

will decline of donald trump began, but i'm clear about the fact that he is still a free man, walking around at mar-a-lago. and eating at the dessert bar and we don't still know the answer to the question of whether our criminal justice system is up to holding him accountable. i have to say, i am increasingly encouraged on all fronts. i thought some of the biggest news this year involves breaking the mar-a-lago document story. it was out of the blue, completely unexpected, and at the same time a very, i shouldn't say very simple, but a much simpler more linear criminal situation. where i think we will see relatively quick action from the justice department, which is of course as everyone knows, a lumbering giants, but for very good reasons when it comes to doing its cases. but in a way that is very frustrating to the public. we also saw that this immaculate work by the january six committee, and i think really without their effort, we would not be viewing donald

trump the way the country clearly is. and much of that work, along with one of the lower points of the, year the supreme court's decision, the dobbs, the abortion case. i think it propelled voters in the polls, during the midterm elections. with results that were good for democracy. it is easy to be disappointed, because democrats do not control both houses. and so much of the much needed reform, voting reform, immigration reform, may not happen. but the reality is that democracy is always aspirational. we never played get there, we're always working towards being more fair, more inclusive, more just. and holding the bad guys accountable for their esteems. i think 2022 was a year when we started moving in the right direction. >> rick, i do not envy you to go after joyce. this idea of the immaculate work product, and the emasculate cohesion. i don't know the last time that we saw congressional committee

work like that. some of it was because while they were not united in their party affiliation, there were two republicans given very prominent roles in the committee. they were united in mission. and it was miraculous, to be reminded of what that looked like. take us through your highs and lows. >> well, on that points, the last time was probably the watergate hearings. and like the watergate hearings, the january six commission and served an educational function. just seeing smart people, who are syllable, who are using the law, who are deferring to each other. it makes people have some respect for congress again, i think that was super important, in addition to the historic referral and indictment of donald trump, but you also saw on washington post, as one of my highlights. a return to bipartisanship, the chip spill, the gun safety bill, the infrastructure bill. those were all bipartisan bills.

those were all bills that met the american people. so i am somewhat hopeful that in the new year, even when the republican house, that we can restore some of that bipartisan initiative. because those bills, and those infrastructures are not ideological. everyone can get behind, that and i agree with both the rev and joyce that there is kind of a return to common sense, a return to normalcy, i hope that will pervade the legislative agenda over the next two years as well. >> i writes, no one's going anywhere, and your ears are not betraying you. you're hearing some optimism. but we will fit in a quick break. we'll be back with more on the other side! he other side

with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. >> today, president joe biden

pardoned six people, this is the second time he has issued pardons during his presidency. carrie parks davis, 66, who pleaded guilty to using a telephone to facilitate an unlawful cocaine transaction at age 22. received a pardon. as that charlie barnes. jackson. 77, who sold whiskey. without a require tang stamp when he was 18 years old. also receiving a pardon. edward, who pleaded guilty to involvement in america -- marijuana trafficking conspiracy when he was 50 years old. vince a, 37, who consumed alcohol in the u.s. military. john decks knock, 72, pleading guilty to one count of --

and making is an owner for the purpose of manufacturing marijuana plants. an 80-year-old beverley, who was convicted of second degree murder. nearly half essentially ago. for shooting an abusive husband. she was pregnant at the time, and testified that her husband had beaded her throughout her pregnancy. back with our panel, rev., what are you, what do we learn about presidents joe biden the man through his selections for presidential pardons? >> i think that it shows that a president, president biden, is really serious about reforming, honestly, an unjust sentencing as well as the criminal justice system not working the same as it shed for people under the circumstances. but people with minor infractions who maybe should be held accountable, but certainly the not accountable that these

people were given. and i think that goes along with his doing the executive order around policing, and other things since he has been in office. and many of us in the civil rights community, that have raised these challenges, have notice that there is a consistent pattern, that even when he is not being challenged, that president -- has chosen a really decisive way of being in office, and get correcting the justice system. and i think that this is an excellent way for him to be doing that. >> what is your reaction choice to presidential biden second round of pardons? >> i agree with the rev. i really admire the way that joe biden issue these pardons, many of these people have long since finished serving their sentences, and they have gone on to do really important things. they have gotten college

degrees, they are engaged in community work. in the case of the woman who was convicted of second degree murder of her abusive husband, the trial judge in that case didn't permit her to offer all of that evidence and in her own defense. so this is recognition that the pardon process is meant to be used for justice, and for mercy. and it is such a sharp contrast to the former guy, who dangled pardons that people who he thought were at risk of offering evidence the federal authorities that could potentially incriminate him? it takes a very refreshing use of the pardon and the way that it is intended. >> yeah, rick, you cannot talk about this presidents restraint, with appropriate use of his power almost unilateral power to pardon individuals without contrasting the predecessor who literally pardon every ally and aid in the criminal investigation into him and represented a legal threat to

him. steve bannon, mike flynn and who else there is a list it's a rose gallery of jack christian ernst fuller, paul manafort, dr. stone. papadopoulos, i forgot about him. brittani kerik, this is, or the prolific maker that one that bill barr called ludicrous and i believe that was trump's first pardon. >> yes, it's like murderous roe and you know the pardon power as you said michael. is the single most unqualified power that the president has and in fact it's the one thing that is least like the presidents powers in the constitution because there are no checks and balances to it. and as joy said, the origins of pardons is really in a religious sense. shakespeare said that merci injustice between signs of the same coin. that is what we have seen of joe biden's pardons, a sense of

mercy, and a sense of justice. and as people in america can into it a sense of the person who gets pardons. as the reverend said, trump dangled the pardons in front of people, he used it as a way of moral arbitration. what biden is doing is something, he is showing mercy as a person. as a person who believes in second chances. i think that the american people can see, that and that is what pardon should be used for. >> you know, brad, i want to ask you to look ahead for us. what are you watching for in the new year? >> well, i am watching for how we see on the democratic side, whether the president runs again. i think he has earned the right to run, i think that he is done a lot where he is given credit for. and how the democrats would deal with as senate kind of landscape, the senate races that they're going to have to

battle to try and not lose some of what they have gained. because the senate races are stacked one way. the real challenge, in the real that they have to be watching for is, will there really be. especially in the republican party, to move against donald trump. will someone have the courage to stand up and take him on? even if they are sacrificing on their own? if they do not the trump themselves, they will end up trumped in history. >> that is such a good place just, of race day, and thanks reverend al sharpton for spending time with. us thank you for everything you do all year long for us on our show. a quick break for us, we'll be right back!

>> democrats are touting a monumental achievement, as they close out the year. president joe biden is outpacing the former president in seeding federal judgments. when those confirmed, and those, seeded he's confirmed judge ketanji brown jackson to the u.s. supreme court. she is the first black woman to sit on the court. president biden, and democrats have also seated more women, and more federal people of color to the federal bench than both trump and president obama did. the ap quotes three out of every four judges by president biden, confirmed through the senate in the past couple of years where women. and especially people of color.

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