>> good afternoon, i'm infer

yasmin vossoughian. new, deadly attack in a city of kyiv as the residents of the ukraine capital running for cover. two major deaths were following this afternoon. pope benedict, the man who gave up the pope, passing away just hours ago. and tributes also pouring in for a giant and broadcasters, barbara walters. we also have the latest information on a suspect arrested in the murders of fort university of idaho students. and on trump facing new revelations from his just released tax returns, and depositions from the january six committee. i'm also gonna be talking with the two men who have spent a year with trump's true believers. >> do you think that trump is still in power right now? >> what do you think? >> you think biden is not the

current president. >> no sir, no sir. i don't believe it. >> the good buyers, coming up with the best of what they heard this year. all of that, we are following new year celebrations around the world as more countries are already crossing into 2023. this is the scene in australia not too long ago. all of that ahead. but first, some breaking news, we are following just into the desk here moments ago. south korea's joint of staff reporting that north korea has test launch yet another round of ballistic missiles into the sea of japan. it keeps the end of a year filled with unprecedented number of missile tests by north korea. we will have more on this developing story as we get the information. now, let's go to the vatican. condolences pouring in around the world following the death of pope americas benedict the 16th. he was 95 years old. the first pope in 600 years to step down from the papacy back in 2013. a short time ago, president biden paying tribute to the former pope. saying, he will quote, always

remember his generosity. and he will be remembered as a renowned theology with a lifetime of devotion to the church, guided by his principles and faith. let's bring in nbc's claudio at the vatican. and father james martin, editor at large of america magazine. welcome to both of you. let's start with you. what was the scene like there at the vatican this evening? walk us through what is next for the funeral and for ceremonial plans. >> hey cory. it really looks like business as usual. going ahead with the scheduled problem for today. he led the evening prayers at the end of the year at st. peters square before he was wheeled out into the square to greet the people who came down for the end of the year. but of course, behind the scenes, it is not business as usual at all. there are preparations underway for the funeral of the benedict 16. the vatican has gone out some

guidelines on what is going to happen in the next few days. well, they said the remains of pope americus will stay in the monastery, within the vatican walls behind me. the pope has lived since he resigned in 2013, and where he died this morning. and then on monday, his body will be taken inside the basilica. so the faithful can pay their last respects and bid farewell to the pope. and then, the funeral will take place next thursday on january the 5th in the morning, in st. peter square. it will be presided by pope francis. again, the first pope in modern times at least that will hold a mass, a funeral for another pope. pope emeritus. then, the burial will take place in the vatican grotto, which is underneath st. peter's basilica. it is where john paul the second, the last pope who died in 2005 was buried before he

was moved to his final resting place inside st. peter's basilica. another interesting number there for you. the prefect of rome said that he expects during those days between the funeral, 60,000 people will come down to rome to pay their last respects for pope benedict. compare that to more than 4 million people who came down for the last pope who had a funeral here at st. peters square. of course, that was in 2005. >> father martin, pope americas benedict leaves behind a complicated legacy. he is seen by many as an enforcer of conservative doctrine. his resignation broke almost six years of president, tell us more about the legacy of america's benedict the 16th? >> i think people obviously know him as pope, but also as prefect of the congregation. and most famously, as the pope to resign. he was a very respected

theologian, a brilliant theologian. that's one of the regions that he was tapped as an archbishop. and then, he became prefect of the congregation. really, his resignation was historic. i think a great sign of humility. imagine giving up that kind of power at the top of your game. i thought was a humble thing to do. i think that is probably the most historic thing that he did. that should not overshadow his many other accomplishments. as the new york times writes, even before his election in 2005, he was seen as an intellectual and spiritual leader who upheld church doctrine in the face of growing secularism and pressure to change to get more people into the pews. how did this approach to the papacy to find his tenure as pope? >> well, i think he came with the legacy of his work.

he was seen as a watchdog. i think people might have expected him to be very severe, but one of the things that people were introduced to during his papacy were his amazing writings. he wrote a series of books called jesus of nazareth which were brilliant and beautiful. at heart, he was always a theologian. i saw an interview today with a fellow jesuit who said that my fellow jesuit, i'm not really an administrator. i'm a theologian. i think that's what people saw in his writings, even when he was pope. >> claudia, i want to ask you about some of the reaction that you've been hearing from people that you spoken to there on the ground. >> well, of course the reaction that everyone was anticipating was the one from pope francis. indeed, he had a few words for the pope during his evening prayers. i will read you what he said

about him. with emotion, we will remember his character, so noble, so kind. we will show gratitude in our hearts. gratitude for the church, gratitude to him for all the good he has done, and above all, for his testimony of faith and prayer, especially in these last years of his retired life. only god knows the value and strength of his sacrifices offered for the good of the church. probably, what he meant about sacrifice is for the good of the church. as for the martin saying, the decision to resign, be humble after resigning pave the way of course to francis's pontificate. but also the possibility of future popes, including francis to resign as well if they feel like their health will not allow them to fulfill the ministry. >> father james martin, starting off this afternoon, thanks to both of you. and we also learned today the

passing of television and journalist pioneer barbara walters. we will have more on her life and legacy a little bit later in this hour. right now, we are following some breaking news in ukraine. another round of russian strikes has rattled the capital of kyiv as ukrainians are preparing to celebrate the new year. at least one person is dead, nbc's matt is there on the ground for us. that, the damage from these latest russia strikes, it is not limited to kyiv, right? >> that is right. it was just the capitol, we saw these targets throughout the country, mykolaiv in the south, the province around dnipro in the east, the central part of the country to the west. but you know, it was the capitol really that bore the brunt of today's attacks. it is borne the brunt of the last three days of attacks. remember, this is part of a three-day-long assault on targets across the country. really, russia's favorite target, which is electricity infrastructure. that's what has been the new target for the last several

months, ever since this latest round of missile strikes that have been going on ever since about mid fall, up until just yesterday. this is the fulfillment of volodymyr zelenskyy's warning from christmas eve, where he said that the russians are likely to attack before new year's. well, they have. it has been to devastating effect because this capitol had really needed a reprieve. now we are still talking about, i think it's 30% of the capital right now is without electricity. it was 40% just two days ago after that folly, 70 missiles across the country. but still cory, the anti missile defense systems here in the capitol and throughout the country have been surprising in their ability to shut down all these missiles. and, these self exploring drones that ukraine says the shot -- they were sourced in iran. so, we are still seeing a lot of power outages here, we are still seeing a lot of rescue workers trying, and municipal

workers, trying to bring the lights back on in time for new years. >> not only in time for new years, but also just as quickly as possible to help with anybody that is dealing with that bitter and brutal winter out there in ukraine right now. bradley for us, thank you. breaking news in the killing of four university of idaho students, seven weeks ago. brian coalburg are, now charged with four counts of first degree murder. according to court records, he is now extradition back to idaho after being arrested in pennsylvania. steve patterson is following the story for us and, can you explain what happened to the arrest steve? >> cory, a couple of things here. one, unequivocally, detectives, police, the fbi all say that dna evidence was essential. the key piece, the missing link that led to his arrest. we don't know how that the na evidence played a role, but a lot of this is still under wraps. we do know that it was essential to that. it was supported by a pretty robust surveillance operation,

including at his home in pennsylvania. and possibly across state lines in his car. we know that the vehicle was that white hyundai elanco. still one of the key pieces, one of the few leads that the public knew about four weeks, and weeks. it led to thousands of tips. while there is still so much to learn, including motive, including murder weapon, at least the family feels that those families back in moscow, least now they have a pathway to justice. take a look. >> for nearly seven long winter weeks, like in a scenic small town of moscow, idaho upended. a town of just 26,000 shouted in sorrow following the murders of those four young lives. >> while we cannot bring back matty, kayleigh, ethan, we can thoughtfully and purposely carry their legacy forward. >> the family still steeped in grief, but hopeful for justice. kara, the mother telling nbc

news, it's been a nightmare, this whole thing has been a nightmare. but i feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. but it's been a long road. >> if everybody was like ethan, it would be a better place. >> as the weeks take by, with little new information in a place that hasn't had a previous homicide in seven years, criticism against local law enforcement swelled. moscow police chief james fry promising the trial wasn't cold, pledging to bring justice visibly impacted. >> i'm a dad, with daughter's. that is tough. >> the thanksgiving, through christmas, the victims families desperate for answers. >> it is sleepless nights. it is feeling sick to your stomach. it is crying. >> campus became a ghost town. >> to know that they lost their lives was very humbling. >> it's on the graduation ceremony kayleigh should've

walked. kayleigh's family telling us through an attorney, they are relieved that the authorities have someone in custody, and now the journey through the criminal justice system begins. >> next for coburg or, an extradition hearing scheduled for tuesday. there are two options, he can wave it or you can fight it. if he fights it, it could mean that it could take a lot to get him back to moscow, idaho to that county where the crimes were committed, which means that the criminal affidavit would remain sealed, which would mean that a few of these details that we have been talking about will stay under wraps for at least the next three days, if not weeks. a long road to justice for one, it is on the horizon. >> certainly as, steve patterson for us, thank you steve. coming up, the guys from the good lawyers join me with their most amazing moments of the year. following trump smog a crowd. plus, key takeaways from the release of donald trump's taxes and how they undermine his image as a successful businessman. also ahead, remembering the legendary and groundbreaking career of barbara walters, she passed away at 93. career of barbara walters, she

passed away at 93.

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no income taxes in 2020. joining me now is susan, she has investigative reporter at the new york times. suzanne, welcome in. thank you for helping us break this down. walk us through some of the major red flags that jumped out to you when you saw these documents. >> well, i have to say, there's a lot of numbers in there that come from what we knew. which is that he doesn't pay a lot of income tax. he is not a great businessman. the new york times in 2020 obtained a lot of data that came out. nothing that is new, breaks the narrative. i'm always asked, what is the most shocking thing in there? all mostly shocking at this point, he continues to lose for the most part his business. they continue to lose money. a very little income taxes paid. there was actually one interesting finding, that was in 2018. he actually had a great year. when we dug into it, it was because of a sale of an asset that he held. when we looked further into it, it turns out that it was

actually an asset, and investment his father had made in the early 1970s. fred trump, for a lot of donald trump's life, always had his back when he died. he inherited a lot of money from him and throughout his life he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from him. again to the white house, fred trump makes an appearance. but after tell you, when i think about the most shocking thing, it was the revelations about the presidential audit system and just what a breakdown happened there. he used, he was supposed to be under mandatory audit and they didn't even look at his finances and tell 2019. it's hard to get your mind around it. they had one person at one point assigned to it, we got his taxes in 2020, it took three of us a year or more just to go through that information. i can't believe the irs justin put more people and pay more attention to it. >> and put a pin in that with what we're talking about the irs. i do want you to break down a

little bit of the details of your investigative findings over that last year. you're right here in the new york times, the returns do not show much success from mr. trump in his recent business dealings. they showed mr. trump often reported heavy losses from his own -- you told us how in those extra years that he could have maybe seen those extra years when he did make a lot of money. the sale of that specific asset in 2018 for example. now tell us, in fact the business dealings that made it so -- all of the negative details that made it so difficult for him, or made him such a bad businessman in the other years. >> let's just look beyond, it doesn't start when he entered the white house. we have looked at his taxes for 20 years. he has had to wellsprings of money in his life. he had the inheritance, the money he got from his father. and then, because of the apprentice, a lot of money from that show. and the licensing deals from it. in between that, he has

invested in businesses that have not made money. he has plowed huge amounts of money into golf courses, and never gotten a return on that. you see that over and over again in his life. he has all this money, he gets it and then he invests it into businesses that for the most part don't make a lot of money. you look at the old post office, it was a hotel in washington. most recently, he didn't quite build it, it was a rehab. he poured huge amounts of money into that. he never got any sort of return, was putting his own capital into it. he lost money. he ultimately ended up selling it a few years ago. that is the sort of thing, again and again in his life you see. it is played out a little bit in the tax returns that we got. but it has been played out throughout his entire life. this pattern are getting a lot of money and then the businesses that he operates, he just doesn't make a lot of money. there is actually one investment that does come back, it's actually a partnership he has with a real estate company.

he has one third partnership with them, and he doesn't have any management control over that. he was forced into that relationship. we saw in 2019 and 20, he got pulled out about $10 million a year out of that. so something he has no control over, he is getting some money out of. anything that he has management control over, pretty much does not make money. >> you are starting to see a trend here with that. so much more to unpack here. we are going to leave it here susan. this is a fascinating conversation. the next step to talk about is a gop retaliation, possible retaliation. >> more on the audits, i just can't stress enough how of a breakdown it was. >> from the irs specifically, more questions there, will anyone be held accountable. suzanne craig with us this afternoon, thank you susan. still ahead, it is another travel nightmare weekend. or will it be? we are talking with passengers at baltimore international airport on the conditions that

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our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. >> thousands of pages of transcripts released by the house can six committee this week are shining new light on the weeks leading up to the attack. and they include interviews with jenny thompson, thomas, the white of clarence thomas. she tried to play down her own role in attempts to overturn the election. she said that it was quote, laughable that she could influence her husband. but she did confirm that he was the best friend that she mentioned speaking to in text with mark meadows. joining me now, msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor joyce vance. joyce, welcome and good afternoon. that's -- what stood out to you from her testimony and what it means to her husband? >> well, ginni thomas's

testimony is interesting, i think precisely because of her husband's role as a supreme court justice. it is tough to read this testimony and not conclude that her husband needs to recuse from any additional cases that involve in any way the sorts of political endeavors that she is involved in. she is not really a central player, at least not apparently from this transcript in the question of whether or not the former president has any criminal responsibility for events on january 6th. but, because she is so close to the center of power, that could well develop as we learn more about this case. >> this is an interesting detail from the testimony. he said that record now who is acting director of national intelligence told him that trump had grudgingly accepted that he lost arizona. what does that mission mean for the doj as they begin to investigate these criminal referrals? >> well, it is really important.

we see other sorts of testimony to this effect. including the fact that trump had acknowledge that he had lost the race in arizona. there is other testimony from people suggesting that he was aware that he had lost the overall election. this is a critical piece of information for doj because to properly prove some of the charges, for instance the committee has recommended, and one assumes doj is thinking about. charges like interference with the official proceeding. it is important for the doj to establish, and they'll have to prove it in court beyond a reasonable doubt if they bring charges that trump knew he had lost the election. he wasn't pursuing a legitimate purpose, but instead he was trying to interfere with the outcome of an election that he knew for certain that he had lost. >> that is an important differentiation there. the committee issued for criminal referrals on trump, to the doj. now you are right how important

the obstruction charge is. you said quote, the notion that obstruction is, merely, and an important crop process crime runs contrary to foundational notions in our legal system. and yet, dismissing it in that offhand fashion is very trumpian. if you cannot legitimately die something, argue that it's not important. why is the obstruction charge so important? >> so, obstruction charges go to the heart of the criminal justice system. one of the core missions of the criminal justice system is uncovering the truth. and figuring out whether there are people who need to be held accountable for criminal conduct. when people obstruct, whether that's lying about the truth, refusing to show up in testify, destroying evidence, they're interfering with something that makes our criminal justice system works, that gives people confidence in it. so prosecutors are acutely aware, not just of criminal obstruction charges, which is what we are talking about when we talk about the committees

referral to doj on charges that the former president obstructed an official proceeding, that is an important charge. but we are also charging about interfering with witnesses, interfering with the process of the criminal justice system doing its work. it is a process crime in that sense, that we are talking about interference with the process. but it is also incredibly important when you think about how we are supposed to achieve justice in this country. >> joyce, do you think in 2023 trump gets indicted on any of these charges? >> obviously, that is the question that we all have in mind. it is dangerous, i think, in some ways to cristobal these things. the january 6th investigation has been complicated. one of the benefits for the public in seeing the committee's report in all the transcripts, is we appreciate just how much work doj has to do. but there is an easier case, or perhaps a less complex piece that the special counsel is

looking at. that's the mar-a-lago charges that trump mishandled classified material. i think that case will be easier for the special prosecutor to get a yes on. i suspect that we will see charges related to that situation in 2023. >> you are certainly right that we have to be careful. i didn't mean crystal balling when it comes to former president trump, or charges. joyce vance for us this afternoon, joyce, we appreciate you. let's get to some breaking news now. in the death of legendary journalist margaret walters, the american icon, reporter and talk show host passing away at the age of 93. some of her former colleagues offering their touching tributes, including former cbs evening news anchor dan rather. he tweeted, the world of journalism has lost a pillar of professionalism, courage, and integrity. barbara walters was a trail blazer and a true pro. she outworked, i thought, and outhustled her competitors. she left the world a better place for it. he will be deeply missed.

and moments ago, president biden tweeting, barbara walters has always been an example of bravery and truth. breaking barriers while driving our nation forward. her legacy will continue as an inspiration for all journalists. on instagram, oprah winfrey posted a photo with walters, with the caption saying in part quote, without barbara walters, they wouldn't have been me. nor any other woman you see on evening, morning, and daily news. nbc's lester holt has more on her groundbreaking career. >> in her long career, barbara walters interviewed just about every person and ask them just about everything. >> you show the president of the united states your fong underwear. >> where did you get the nerve? who does that? >> we read that you were unstable. we read that you were mad. are you saw you didn't bring the tanks? >> yes, i think so. >> thank you to barbara

walters. >> she was a pioneer for women, breaking down barriers with persistence and hard work. >> i didn't start out to prove anything, i was doing it because i wanted to be the biggest of the best. i never felt that way. >> barbara walters grew up around show business. her father owned new york's famous latin quarter nightclub. she thought about becoming an actress, but joined today as a writer in 1961. >> barbara is with me right now. >> she wanted a serious role, not easy for a woman back then. >> there was a feeling of women can't do news, no one would take them seriously. >> a typical early story, playboy bunny school. >> i felt pretty awkward. after all, i'm not a bunny, i'm a reporter for the national broadcasting company. >> but a national tragedy brought her first major assignment. >> these are the honor guards who have been guarding the casket of president kennedy. >> she became a regular on today, still in the shadow of

male host frank mcgee. >> oh barbara. >> i could not ask a question until he asked me. the only way that i could do an interview that had substance was if i got it myself. >> she landed one big interview after another. >> these rumors that she is difficult. >> i'm as difficult as a daisy. >> her career took off. >> barbara walters is here with us. >> i want to china. i did interviews with presidential candidates. i went to the conventions. little by little, people could see, here is a woman doing the same thing that men are doing, and it's okay. >> i'm barbara walters. >> she became today's first female co-host. and abc soon offered 1 million dollar contract to co anchor their evening news. it did not go well. >> my partner was a well respected news man named harry reason or, he certainly wanted

to do the news every night, he just and want to partner. nevertheless a woman. he made that clear from the very first night. >> -- you only four minutes. >> i became the underdog. it was the worst time professionally in my life. hello, i'm barbara. >> she didn't like gilbert rather's famous parity either. but she learned to laugh along. >> good evening. >> walter just kept working. a presidential debate, primetime specials, co-anchor of 2020. a historic joint interview with the leaders of egypt and israel. you were always like this. >> and no interview question was more memorable than this one. >> what kind of a tree or you? if you think you are a tree. >> everyone would like to be an oak tree. >> she conquer daytime television with a view. >> i always wanted you a show with different generations of

women with different backgrounds, and different personalities. that's what we did. >> she left the view in 2014, she said she was retiring. dozens of top women in television news came to pay tribute. >> this is my legacy, these are my legacy. >> and unforgettable legacy. as a woman, as a broadcaster, second none. barbara walters transformed american television. >> i've had an amazing career beyond anything i could ever have imagined. my cup runs over, thank you, thank you, thank you. >> my thanks to nbc's lester holt for that report. our condolences to the family of barbara walters who passed away at the age of 93. we will be right back. of 93. we will be right back. we will be right back. before we begin, i'd like to thank our sponsor, liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. and by switching, you could even save $652. thank you, liberty mutual. now, contestants ready? go!

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stretch for holiday travel as southwest airlines says operations have returned to

normal. nbc's marissa perez is at baltimore, washington airport for. us what do you say, have you taught any southwest flyers? what can travelers expect this weekend? >> i talked to a number of them. what i will say, and what you can probably see behind me, things are looking pretty good. we have only sent about 16 cancel domestic flights today. less than ten tomorrow. we know that, man, after last week, domestically, when we look at southwest, alone, we saw 16,000 canceled flights, in just one week. this really is maiden day. i mean, the visuals of what we saw after the last week were just stunning. the sea of suitcases that were filled with really important stuff. we are not just talk about christmas gifts. some people had important things like medication that was left behind. people are traveling across the country to reunite with their suitcases that were either left behind at the airport they departed from, or, went ahead of them. it was a total mess. people had ruined holiday plans. so, southwest, as we mentioned, said that they are trying to turn things around. we know the department of

transportation, rather, is investigating this and we spoke to a travel expert about what happens next. >> there are four points that they have communicated. but they are looking to southwest to address as quickly as possible. first and foremost, that is getting people to their destinations as safely and quickly as possible. as well as, providing those reimbursements for expenses incurred due to the cancellations. refunding passengers that have canceled their tickets and decided not to travel, at all, versus getting reboot. lastly, getting their bags back as those are the really big points that the d.o.t. is going to hold him to. >> speaking of refunds, and we know that southwest said that they are planning on refunding passengers within the next couple of weeks. keep in mind, nearly 1 million travelers were impacted. in terms of the timeline we will see if they are able to do that, so quickly. the trust is damage. every single person we have spoken to that was flying southwest said that they are

holding their breath today as they make their travel plans. some of them said that they are even packing differently and we are already expecting to not be reunited with their checked bag at the other side. so, they said that the things they needed most, they are bringing them on their carry on. it is almost good, tip by the way. and then, in terms of what happens next we know the department of transportation is investigating. regardless of what they are investigating, and what it, finds it is going to be constantly a misstep for southwest. one that has already cost them the trust of passengers. >> it is mind-blowing to think of how much and tangling is going to be needed, to, with all the receipts that are submitted for people to get refunds. all right, mrsa for us in baltimore. after the break, the comedy duel, the good liars, are here with their best of the world trump true believers of 2022. >> who would you rather have president? joe biden or vladimir putin? >> oh, putin. definitely.

donald trump is having one more event in 2022. and new year's eve party at mar-a-lago, tonight. he is expected to make remarks to reporters. our friends at the good liars have had the task of following the former president around this year at various maga events, and talking to trump's true believers. here is a little taste of what they heard. >> how do you all feel about the events of january six? >> a lot of that was antifa. >> really? >> yes.

>> why would antifa interrupt the certification of an election in which there can to take one? wouldn't they want him to be certified? >> they just want to disrupt and do it anyway possible. >> you think that trump is actually still in power right now? >> what do you think? >> so you think biden is not the current president right now? >> no sir. i never believed it. >> so trump is the current president right now? >> yes sir. >> so are you mad at trump for the high gas prices? >> no, it is not terms fault. >> whose fault is it then? >> he is not the president. >> you said joe biden is not the president? >> so then listen -- >> so how could the gas prices be his fault if he is not president? >> they have to wake up the dingle berries that are still asleep. >> he is again?

>> really, who is that beside anthony fealty? >> you have hollywood, clinton's, the elites, the obamas, it goes on and on. >> the good liars are here joining me now. all right, is that a pretty fair representation of what it comes when you get to trump supporters? this disconnect from reality? >> yes, i think the battle is always trying to figure out what people are taking as truth there. i would not say that is the majority, but i would say that it is a different decent sample size of people you talk to who would say something like that when you talk to them longer than a couple of minutes. i think that there is definitely a battle over truth and facts, right now. >> there is something about this that is so laughable. you almost cannot laugh because it is also very sad. it is upsetting to think how many people have these opinions. i would also like to play an extraordinary moment that you ing a teacher with the confederate flag on it. >> why while, some people wouldy

that that flag symbolizes racism. it's symbolizes slavery. and they might have some valid points there. >> it is their opinion and they are welcome to it if they want to. >> are you pro or against slavery? >> i have no comment but thank you for the interview. >> i will give you one more chance. are you pro are anti slavery? >> i have no comment. >> i will give you one more opportunity to say if you are pro or anti slavery. >> no comment. >> he did not want to say he was against slavery, jason? >> yes, i did not think the toughest question i would asked this year would be are you against slavery. and, of all the people we talked to that maybe shocked me more than the others. some of the people said joe biden released the president, and all these qanon theories. because is slavery good or bad? the answer is bad.

you are against slavery. and, i gave him three chances. he decided no comment would be good enough. that was a really interesting time. that was an nra convention outside houston. that was after the uvalde shooting and everyone there was very pro second amendment. which, the second amendment of the united states of america is not the confederacy. this guy was still championing the confederacy after all these years. it was truly shocking. >> you have had a similarly baffling moment, deborah, with a man who believed the false claims that schools are providing kitty litter to students who identify as cats. let's listen to that. >> so you have not personally seen it? >> no. >> okay, because that sounds -- >> yes, i know. if you talk to students they even say that it has been going on. >> you have talked to the students? they said they saw it? >> some friends of ours, their kids, yes. >> sorry, they saw students

rust as cats. and then they said that there had to be litter boxes in the high school? >> in the bathrooms, they had to have letterboxes. >> unbelievable, i can't even believe it. >> yes, it is kind of hard to believe. >> where are these people getting their information from? >> i do not know. considering the guy was kind of dressed as an eagle, himself, i thought it was pretty bizarre that he was so against other people wearing costumes. but, obviously, the whole thing here is that it is just not happening. people take one really out there story, or sliver of fact, and run with it. going back and forth with this guy, he could not say where he had heard it. he clearly did not want to throw anyone else under the bus. he was just excited about it and telling everybody that this is true. it is something to be outraged

about. he could not say a single fact about it. >> that is a trend you see a lot of these interviews as they cannot really fully explain themselves. you get them into a corner and they tend to change the subject. i want to pay another one here this is an issue you already mentioned here. guns. >> more people and more crime is committed. more people are killed with hammers every year. more than guns. it's the fact. >> i will look that up. i do not think it is directly. in the united states? >> yes sir, that is true. look it up. you can google it. it is actually true. >> so, the number of murder victims and weapons used. so, number one, handguns. 8029. number two, firearms. type not stated. 4863. number three, knives or cutting instruments, personal weapons, face, feet. then rifles that is up for 55. and blunt objects, clubs,

hammers, 393. so the 300 hammers, that stat is wrong? >> to answer your question, second amendment is still my right. it is still important to me. >> okay, so basically, i got it wrong but age is just not care, jason. >> yes, that was eye-opening because at the end of the conversation with this gentleman i asked him, so, now that you know this hammer statistic is not true, are you going to stop telling people? it >> and he said now. he said he heard that years ago. he is going to continue to tell people that. it is a little terrifying because a lot of a large percentage of the country believe something that is not true. they believe the 2020 election is stolen. no facts are going to change their opinion. even if you put them out right in front of them like we did. we googled. we look to the lab say together. and, still, we believe something even though the facts were told right to his face. >> it is jaw-dropping and depressing to think that that

could be true, and they will continue to do that. i'm, what is the twitter page for the good liars? they get up and close with politicians, as well. it is fascinating to learn about some of their encounters. we are going to have to leave it here, though. gentlemen, thank you so much for joining. yes to davram and jason, fascinating, scintillating conversation. coming up, new years eve celebrations around the world. >> happy new year! >> a live look at the countries already in 2023. and a live report from times square i have tonight's ball drop. plus, how rome is preparing for the unprecedented event of a current pope leading the funeral of a former pope. r pope 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet!

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