would say, it's deja vu all over again in the house of representatives. another day with no speaker, no members sworn in, none of the people's business being done as kevin mccarthy continues wheeling and dealing in his quest for 218 votes. this morning, mccarthy received a boost in persuading the hard right rebels endorsing him from donald trump. posting republicans should take the victory and mccarthy would do a good job. we expect voting to resume at any moment. the first test of whether the trump endorsement persuades any of the never kevin faction that reached 20 members strong tuesday night by the end of the third roll call vote. joining me now, ali vitali. let's talk about what the possibilities are outside of another speaker vote in the next few minutes. there's talk of adjournment, delay, giving kevin mccarthy more time to pressure his colleagues. what's going on?

>> reporter: all of these options are thorny. if they go to another round of balloting, it's not clear -- i would be surprised if mccarthy were able to peel off the number of people that he needs from this 20 no vote coalition on his side to actually become speaker on this next ballot. what we are hearing is that the mccarthy team could go for a motion to adjourn until tomorrow. you are right, that would buy them time. it would save them another round of embarrassment if he were to lose on this fourth ballot. as i was walking over here, i tried to find some key members of that 20 no vote coalition to ask if they would support that motion to adjourn. right now, democrats have said they will not represent republicans do that. they are whipping against that motion. republicans would have to go it alone. they would not be able to pass that motion to adjourn unless some of these 20 republicans were also on board and supportive of it. i talked, for example, with congressman andy biggs. he was keeping what he was going to do on the motion to adjourn

close to his vest. it's not even clear that's the strategy we're about to see unfold, as we start seeing members come to the floor there. but our reporting is that that's one of the things that mccarthy's team is considering. again, andrea, they have put out five key deputies, close allies of kevin mccarthy to negotiate with members of the freedom caucus. the thing to remember about those negotiations is, it's not like if you tip one member of the 20 person coalition that all of the rest will follow suit. the better way to think about this is that these are 19 and 20 individual members, all of whom have individual concerns. we will see the way that those members ultimately end up voting and what we end up seeing as they start gaveling in on this second day of speaker-palooza, we can call it. >> thanks so much, ali. joining us vaughan hillyard,

brendan buck, nbc washington correspondent yamiche alcindor and phil rucker. as we gather together, they are standing for the prayer and the pledge of allegiance on the house floor. they go right into it. or there's a motion to adjourn. brendan buck, do you think they will move to adjourn? what happens to them if it fails? what happens to mccarthy? >> it's another big moment. we will find out quickly how much control he has over the floor. a motion to adjourn, as you said, needs 218 votes or a majority of the house willing to go there. democrats making very clear they're not going to help. the big question is, do the people who are opposing kevin mccarthy want to help him get there, want to help him buy more time? if kevin mccarthy can't control the floor in terms of whether or not they are taking a break, whether or not they are voting, i think that's a bad sign for him going forward. if i'm a democrat, i understand what they're doing. they would love to see kevin mccarthy rack up loss after loss. they can't get off the floor.

they can't stop voting until there is a consensus of 218 people in the house to do so. >> phil, why do you think that trump finally decided to publically make it clear that he is supporting mccarthy after taking so much criticism for failing to back senate candidates in november and for not voicing his support more vocally yesterday? >> andrea, trump seems to be persuaded overnight. he was getting calls yesterday encouraging him to support kevin mccarthy. he declined to do so yesterday. he was interviewed last night and said, we will wait and see. then suddenly this morning, at 8:00 a.m., he put out that statement urging house republicans to get in line behind mccarthy and avoid the embarrassing defeat. i think one of the big tests of trump's power within the house, however, is whether that moves the needle at all. there's not been any indication that those 20 house republicans

who voted against mccarthy for speaker have changed their mind because donald trump has told them to do so. >> as they take their seats after the pledge of allegiance. >> a port of order a quorum is not present. the chair will count. >> roll call. they have to count all of the members, brendan buck. this could take a bit. >> yeah. they did a quorum call to start yesterday. that doesn't require everybody saying their name like we saw during the vote. there are electronic voting devices behind the seats there. they will ask them to put their card in and note that they are present. to me, this strikes me as a delay mechanism. they are trying to figure out what to do. they could have rolled into having a vote. i think that was the next order

of business. she decided, we don't know what we want to do. we don't want if we want to adjourn. if i don't think i can pass a motion to adjourn, i may not offer it. that's another stinging loss on the floor. this might take a while. a lot of the members are there. these are usually a 15-minute vote. they tend to stretch on. it could be 30 minutes until they decide whether or not they're going to make the motion to adjourn. >> it seemed to be delaying because they don't know they can get the motion to adjourn. we heard democrats are going to oppose that and there were a number of republicans who might oppose it as well. in which case, they would not get the moment to adjourn, which would take just a simple majority. you can see katherine clark there, who is number two, with pete aguilar and hakeem jeffries. there's the democrats trying to figure out the counterpoint.

mccarthy doesn't know yet whether he has got the votes to adjourn. it would be doubly embarrassing to not adjourn to gather the troops and try to pressure them to roll into a fourth roll call vote and to lose that as well. steve kornacki in new york, let's talk all the strategy that is going on here from both sides. democrats, who have been laying back, but certainly don't want to do anything to end kevin mccarthy's embarrassment. >> yeah. what we are setting up potentially -- look at the math from the third vote. this was the last vote yesterday. 434. there are currently 434 members elect. they haven't all been sworn in. there's a vacant seat, a democrat from virginia who passed away between the election and now. 434. we will find out from this kwaur

-- quorum vote, if all 434 on a vote for speaker vote for a candidate, the magic number again would be 218 to get elected speaker. that more immediate dynamic that you are talking about right now potentially on a motion to adjourn, it's going to be very interesting to see how this is understood by this group of 20 republicans who have refused to back mccarthy, who backed jordan on the third ballot. if they view it as mccarthy needing another day to try to twist arms, to try to make deals, as almost a desperate move by mccarthy to buy time, that motion to adjourn vote becomes a test from these 20, how committed are they to basically finishing off kevin mccarthy? the vote wouldn't officially be for speaker. but the stakes would be mccarthy's best chance of becoming speaker. if his side thinks getting

adjournment for the day, buying another day is their best way, their only way, whatever of becoming speaker, how many of these 20 say, no, i'm not going to give you that time? i'm going to insist we stay in session. if those 20 or any number close to the 20 continue to vote against mccarthy on that, it would pretty much send the same signal that those first three votes for house speaker did yesterday. again, the one other variable to keep in mind here, we have been saying, these 212 democrats. 212, they voted for jeffries on all three ballots yesterday. would all 212 of them vote against a motion to adjourn? would there be democratic defections? i say this because the vote yesterday, that's the first time in more than a decade there haven't been at least a few democrats who have strayed on a vote for speaker. usually, in the past, there have

been a couple who abstained, they voted present, they haven't been present in the chamber, they have cast symbolic votes for other names. all 212 democrats voted for jeffries. any vote going forward from the democratic standpoint, any vote for speaker, it's crucial from the democratic standpoint that all 212 remain in the chamber and all 212 continue to vote for jeffries. if any of them start voting present, start abstaining, start leaving the chamber, that changes the magic number. every democrat who votes present or doesn't vote, that lowers the threshold for mccarthy. >> steve, they are gaveling down. there's a quorum. the clerk is starting. >> the chair counts 351 members. there is a quorum present. the question recurs upon the election of a speaker.

the tellers will please come forward to take their seats. >> we expect we will hear a motion to proceed with the vote, because i don't think that they have the votes for a motion to adjourn, brendan. >> yeah. i think another reason to have that quorum call right there is it may have caught republicans by surprise that democrats were going to whip against the motion to adjourn. there may be republicans who got word they were going to adjourn and weren't going to show up because they didn't think they needed to. yesterday, they adjourned by a voice vote. they didn't have a real vote. republicans maybe in an effort to get all their people to the floor so that they can get

republicans to vote for the motion to adjourn. the problem, i think, that we have here for kevin mccarthy is he has been saying for a few days he is willing to go as many rounds as it takes, if that's what is required to become speaker. now quickly he is saying, he doesn't want to have another vote. he wants to take another day off. it doesn't exactly show strength for his position if he doesn't want to see what the results of that next vote is. i'm very interested to see if he doesn't think he is going to be able to do it, whether they go to adjourn. it looks like he has congressman mike gallagher from wisconsin, an ally of his, ready to make remarks. >> he is former military. it has been very active on foreign policy. there's mccarthy. mccarthy has wide support in this caucus.

just not -- he is minus those 20 who voted against him. that was a big number. by the end of the day, yesterday, hakeem jeffries had more votes for speaker than did kevin mccarthy. >> yeah. it's a situation where it's a question about whether mccarthy should be speaker. it's also a question for members of who is ultimately in charge? is it the 200 or the 20? we have had this dynamic in the house for, frankly, a decade. about 20 people want to make the shots -- call the shots instead of the overwhelming majority of the conference. i think one of the things that mccarthy and his allies will be stressing to the 200 members is, there's a fight here. who wins this fight could have really long lasting imply tagss -- implications. >> to touch base with the democrats, joining us is democratic congressman brendon boyle from pennsylvania.

it's our understanding the democrats did want to adjourn and would not support that. >> that's right. we are here to do the people's work. all 212 of us were united. we were united yesterday throughout the three rounds, voted unanimously for hakeem jeffries. we are here today to get the people's work done. it's remarkable that the republicans, having just won this election, can't even vote for speaker. >> congressman, hang on one moment. stand by. [ applause ] >> mike gallagher just nominated kevin mccarthy. he is getting a standing ovation. stand by us for just a moment. i want to see them get started. [ applause ]

>> the gentleman is recognized. >> let's all take a second, take a look around. i know people are getting frustrated. take a look at this chamber and realize how lucky we are to serve this country in congress. how lucky we all are, democrats and republicans, to be citizens of the greatest country in the history of the world. [ cheers and applause ] i say that because i know last

night people were frustrated. they wanted to go to parties. they wanted to take pictures with their families. honestly, we find ourselves here -- >> that was a quick shout he should be speaker, gallagher for speaker. he said that was out of order. >> no place i would rather be. maybe with the excitement, some of you hadn't had an opportunity to check what's happening online. let me fill you in. what's happening on twitter, what the press is writing about. in some ways, they are salivating. headlines about the chaos, this and that. yesterday, our colleagues on the other side of the aisle were tweeting their bags of popcorn they had out. they love it. it's palpable. i think my friends on the democratic side misunderstand what's happening here. sure, it looks messy. but democracy is messy. democracy is messy.

[ applause ] by design. by design. and that's a feature -- that's a feature, not a bug of our system. we air it all out in the open for the american people to see. because at the end of the day, the president is not in charge. the supreme court is not in charge. the speaker of the house is not even in charge. the american people are in charge. [ cheers and applause ] and i'm proud to be part of a party that welcomes debate, that invites different views, that isn't afraid of that. i listened to some of my colleagues yesterday. mr. roy from texas, my good friend. he knows i respect his views. i have been his partner in

anti-proxy voting crusades, pro-regular order crusades. i understand. i know that his intentions are pure. i know a lot of people are frustrated with the way congress works. i believe that in my bones. nobody has done more to lay out a plan for how we restore the basic functioning of this institution than kevin mccarthy. nobody. nobody has done that. [ applause ] now, you may not have gotten everything you wanted. there are things i want that i know it's not possible to get done in this congress. but mr. mccarthy has gone above and beyond in terms of listening to people with concerns and laying out a plan for how we restore the basic functioning of the house of representatives. furthermore, i believe no one has done more to bring us into the majority than kevin mccarthy. [ applause ]

listen, i wish we had a bigger majority. i wish we could do everything over the next two years. the american people gave us an opportunity. they gave us, republicans, an opportunity to inject some basic common sense into the federal government, to pull the emergency brake on a lot of the crazy we have seen in the last few years. they are asking us to do a job. nobody has laid out a plan, a proactive policy agenda for the direction we want to take this country in more detail than kevin mccarthy. you all had an opportunity to provide input. [ applause ] the irony of this current moment and this debate we're having is that on the big stuff, we all agree. we want to secure the border.

we don't want the executive branch to do everything through a pen and phone. we want to work with our democratic colleagues when it comes to standing up to our enemies abroad. there are basic things we know we need to do. it is time to get to work. [ applause ] so you might tweet out more popcorn emojis. i get it. you might write your headlines. what i see right now is energy. a tremendous amount of energy in this republican caucus who want to do the work of the people. mr. mccarthy is not asking you to endorse business as usual in the house. he has laid out a plan to renew the house of representatives and once again make it an institution that we can look ourselves in the mirror and say, we are working in the people's house. for that and many other reasons, i nominate kevin mccarthy for

speaker of the house. [ cheers and applause ] >> for what purpose does the gentleman from california rise? >> madam clerk, i rise to nominate hakeem jeffries as speaker of this house. [ cheers and applause ] >> the gentleman is recognized. >> madam clerk, make no mistake, there's no frustration on our side. we are focused on serving the american people. in order to do that, we have to unite behind a speaker. democrats are united behind a

speaker who prioritizes putting better paying jobs in industries of the future. growing up in a working class family, he knows that a good paying job and a good education are key to economic mobility. he knows that to tackle the affordability crisis in this country, we need to make sure that everybody gets paid enough to live and work in any zip code. he knows that by creating these jobs, we can once again make it in america. madam clerk, as chair of the democratic caucus, i'm directed by that vote of the caucus to present for election to the 118th congress the honorable hakeem jeffries, representative elect for the state of new york, for the office of speaker. [ cheers and applause ]

>> for what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise? >> i seek to place nomination for speaker. >> the gentleman is recognized. >> yesterday, my first vote for speaker of the house was for byron donalds. today, i'm rising to nominate byron donalds for speaker of the house of representatives. [ applause ] byron is a dear friend, a solid conservative. but most importantly, a family man who loves dearly his wife erica, his three children, has a proven track record as a

businessman, public service in the florida legislature and now as a member of the united states congress. now, here we are and for the first time in history there have been two black americans placed into the nomination for speaker of the house. [ applause ] however -- madam speaker, order. madam clerk, order.

we do not seek to judge people by the color of their skin but rather the content of their character. byron donalds -- [ applause ] byron donalds is a good man raised by a single mom who moved past adversity, became a christian man at the age of 21 and has devoted his life to advancing the cause for his family and for this country. and he has done it admirably. but there's an important reason for nominating byron.

that is, this country needs a change. this country needs leadership that does not reflect this city, this town that is badly broken. [ applause ] the house of representatives is the people's house. it represents the entirety of our country. and we each represent some 750,000 people. we come here and here we sit in a room filled with those representatives. my friend, mr. gallagher -- he is my friend. i agree with him on many things. i agree to almost everything you were talking about. but we should be in here having this kind of a conversation with this many people in the room

about ukraine. we should debate the merits. we should debate the ups and downs of being involved. we should debate the $45 billion. we should debate whether it should be more or less, whether it should be for, what the result we should demand. the only way you are going to get that is if you change the rules and have the leadership to advance the rules to make sure that we can do that. [ applause ] now, we have had a conversation for two months to try to advance the ball. and we have had success in doing that. but we're not there. we're not at the place where we need to be to guarantee -- to guarantee we're going to be able to stand up in the face of the swamp that continues to step over the american people on a daily basis and spend money we don't have and to continue to leave our borders open and to continue to fund bureaucrats that are stepping over the freedoms of the american people.

byron will stand up and do that. [ applause ] byron has a track record of doing that. importantly, when we're sitting here today and we continue this debate and we have a vote, i just ask my friends on this side of the aisle, do you think the american people support the status quo? yes or no? do you think that the american people want us to continue down the road of what we have been doing? do they want us to continue to do the things since the leadership that's in place have been in place, do you think they want us to continue down that path? the argument that i would make is that they want a new face, new vision, new leadership. and i believe that face, vision and new leadership is byron

donalds. i'm proud to put his name into nomination. and i yield back. [ applause ] >> the reading clerk will call the roll. >> adams. jeffries. adaholt. mccarthy.

aguilar. jeffries. alford. mccarthy. allen. mccarthy. allred. jeffries. amorday. mccarthy. armstrong. mccarthy. airington. mccarthy. ockenclaus. jeffries. babbin. mccarthy. bacon. mccarthy. baird. mccarthy.

balderson. mccarthy. ballant. jeffries. banks. mccarthy. barr. mccarthy. betagon. >> jeffries. bean of florida. mccarthy. beatty. jeffries. bentz. mccarthy. barra. jeffries. bergman. mccarthy. byer. jeffries.

bice. mccarthy. biggs. donalds. bilarackus. mccarthy. bishop of georgia. jeffries. bishop of north carolina. donalds. bloomenaur. jeffries. blunt rochester. jeffries.

boebert. donalds. bonamicci. jeffries. bost. mccarthy. boman. jeffries. boyle of pennsylvania. jeffries. rakeen. donalds. brown. jeffries. brownly. jeffries. buchanan. mccarthy. buck. mccarthy.

beaushon. mccarthy. budzinski. jeffries. burchat. mccarthy. burgess. mccarthy. burlison. mccarthy. bush. jeffries. calvert. mccarthy. cammick. mccarthy. caravayo. jeffries. carbahol. jeffries. cardinus. jeffries.

carrie. mccarthy. carl. mccarthy. carson. jeffries. carter of georgia. mccarthy. carter of louisiana. jeffries. carter of texas. mccarthy. cartwright. jeffries. cassar. jeffries. case. jeffries. castin. jeffries.

castor of florida. jeffries. castro of texas. jeffries. chavez-dereemer. mccarthy. shiverless-mccormick. jeffrey. chu. jeffries. cicilline. jeffries. syscomani. mccarthy. clark of massachusetts. jeffries. clark of new york. jeffries. cleaver. jeffries. cline. mccarthy.

cloud. donalds. >> there it is. you have five votes now -- five votes, which means once again, this is the fourth roll call where kevin mccarthy will not be elected speaker. steve kornacki is standing by at the big board. steve, let's go through how this is going to work. they didn't have enough votes to adjourn. that's why there was a quorum call and a delay at the beginning. democrats are holding firm, nobody is voting present, nobody is lowering that threshold. now we have six. >> six is -- with five there was still a very theoretical path for mccarthy, if every other republican who had been voting against him voted for him and one voted present. with six, it's mathematically impossible for mccarthy unless for some reason a bunch of democrats later in this vote abstain, vote present, something like that.

this is the alphabetical list. it's updating as the votes are called. what we have, this is a list of all of the 20 votes who were against mccarthy on the third ballot yesterday. as the roll is called, we see who they vote for. so far, the first six names to be called all have voted for byron donalds, whose name was put into nominate by chip roy. that block of opposition is holding. everybody republican-wise who voted for mccarthy on the first three ballots is still so far voting for him on this ballot. everybody who voted against him, republican-wise on the third ballot, is still voting against him on this third ballot. all the democrats continue to vote for hakeem jeffries. if all the democrats continue to vote for jeffries on this ballot, if he hits 212 again, it's magically impossible at this point for kevin mccarthy to win on the fourth ballot. now the question just becomes, again, for mccarthy, working through this list of 20 -- they

are going through them alphabetically. are any of these going to end up saying mccarthy? that was the other question with a fourth vote. mccarthy probably not going to get to 218 on the fourth vote. can he show progress? can he show he peeled off three or four and start momentum? again, now we are seven deep into the no votes. byron donalds will be interesting. his name was placed into nomination. he is coming up. is there any light that up for mccarthy when the roll is called? so far, none. >> joining us now, thanks to you, steve, is chuck todd. the question for kevin mccarthy is, what can he offer? what concession can he make? among the hard core against him, those five and it expanded to 20, they want different things. >> the only thing he can do is not seek the speakership. it's the only thing. >> step aside? >> that's the only thing these folks want at this point. the problem is, we're focused on

these 20. it's the 20 that made brendan buck's professional life miserable when he lived in another entity in leadership and those things. there's another -- i don't know what the number is. is it 30, 40, 50, of house republicans who don't want to cave to the 20? then the 20 is in charge. this is truly loggerheads. i don't know what the solution is. i talked to one committee chair, they said, we need a therapist. they are all personal grievances. these are arguably -- you have 20 people with 17 different asks. he has done the big stuff. at this point, there's nothing left other than stepping aside. that would hand them the ultimate leverage, which i think would -- i'm curious what brendan thinks. i think that would fracture things worse. >> as long as the democrats are holding firm, it seems, yamiche, they are as united as they have been.

donalds just became the eighth and voted for himself. >> democrats are certainly united. you have president biden getting ready or in kentucky meeting with mitch mcconnell. he will push and talking about the bipartisan infrastructure plan. democrats understand that they are going to have a lot on their hands and issues when it comes to the fact the republicans are controlling the house. in this moment, what you are seeing is democrats looking at the aisle and saying, they are proving why they should not be trusted to govern, the republicans. so many americans that i have talked to have told me they want a functioning government. there are so many people with problems in this country between the pandemic and recession coming. people don't want to see this sort of thing on tv. they don't want to see a republican party that cannot function. the big question continues to be, whenever they get over this issue of house speakership, is this going to turn into a fight over the debt ceiling or the government shutdown or other things? think about the republican party, it in some ways is

embarrassing for them. i think it also is in some ways -- it costs a long and scary shadow over what the future of this house that's controlled by republicans is going to be able to do. >> quickly, donald trump. donald trump once again was very helpful to kevin mccarthy to the point of it got him not a single new vote. it's a reminder of -- we have been chronicling how much power he has been losing inside the party. this is why trump had been quiet for fear his voice doesn't matter. we found out at least when it comes to getting mccarthy over the finish line -- he could maybe end mccarthy. but he can't -- he can't crown him. >> this puts a punctuation mark on the midterms. the democratic caucus is united. the strategy for democrats now is to stick together, don't run

for the exits, don't vote present, force the republicans to come up with the required number to elect a speaker? where does that get us in this era when people want government to work? >> let's take a moment here and step back. the fact this hasn't happened in a century shows just how dysfunctional this republican majority is. what's interesting is that last term, we democrats had exactly the same number, 222. with that, we were able to pass some of the biggest and most important domestic policy legislation since the 1960s. here, this other side can't elect a speaker. something that every side after every election has been able to do in my grandparents' lifetime. i want to return to a point that joy made earlier. as someone who will be leading the fight on the democratic side for a clean increase in the debt ceiling as the incoming ranking member of the budget committee,

this is not a good sign, that the now majority party, the fact they can't even lect their own speaker, tells me we will have a problem if we are looking to have a clean increase in the debt ceiling if they are having this problem on days one and two. >> indeed. i want to point out that there is a real contrast in what's happening in kentucky today. just across the bridge from a controversial bridge linking kentucky and ohio, cincinnati to kentucky, literally is the president of the united states, the republican leader, mitch mcconnell, now the longest serving leader of any caucus in the senate, as well as the republican governor of ohio, mike dewine, democratic governor bashir of kentucky and the senators portman and brown from

ohio. what you have got is a completely bipartisan unified group to celebrate infrastructure and the billions that are going to go to rebuilding that old bridge, which has an incredible impact on the gdp of this country. i think it's 3% of the daily gdp goes across that bridge, congressman. >> yeah. you know, this is another example of there's actually a real cultural difference between the house republican conference and the senate republicans. we saw that manifest itself almost exactly two years ago on january 6th. we saw it on the vote for the bipartisan infrastructure bill. i think 19 senate republicans, including minority leader mcconnell, voted for it. while on the house side, that's really unimaginable. we are seeing this continue and continue to play out. in some ways -- brendan buck --

i would be interested in his opinion on this. in many ways, this fight on the republican side, it's all within the house republican conference. it has been brewing for about a dozen years now. it began in 2010 with the freedom caucus. it's the same crowd that brought down boehner, that would have brought down paul ryan. here we are. until there's a republican leader who is willing to just stand up to them and have this fight, we're just going to see this continuing around and around. >> congressman, thank you very much for coming off the floor. stay in touch. if the strategy changes, please let us know. we are watching this. it's fascinating. brendan, you have the cue. >> he is right. this is manage that both previous republican speakers dealt with. we had larger majorities. it made it easier to get through some of these fights. what chuck was talking about earlier is right. at some point this stops becoming about kevin mccarthy and it becomes who is in charge

of the conference. is this going -- are we going to allow 20 members to screw up everything for everyone else? there were big bills we wanted to do and we couldn't do it because of this group. this is the ultimate test. if these 20 are able to successfully take out a speaker in this way, if they're able to insert someone else on their own terms -- let's be real. if it's not kevin mccarthy, somebody else will have to negotiate with them. the rest of the members need to look at themselves and say, who have we handed the keys over to? at this point, what's stopping them from asking for really anything going on? this is a bigger moment for house republicans than just kevin mccarthy. i'm really upset this is where it's playing out. but here we are. >> chuck, i'm really struck by the fact that nancy pelosi didn't have a huge majority and had to deal with the squad and a lot of other people saying, we

should have generational change, be more liberal. a lot of questions raised in 2018. somehow, the democrats managed to pull it together and not humiliate their leaders. >> the only thing i can -- i've been thinking about this between pelosi and mcconnell. i put them over here. you put mccarthy over here. >> institutionalist. >> how have they been able to navigate this? the two of them, they have fear as a tool. they have successfully -- some is taken over time. sometimes i wonder, kevin mccarthy's biggest problem i think sometimes is he never was a rank and file member of congress. he never was a subcommittee member for a while and didn't work his way up. he fast tracked to leadership. correct me if i'm wrong. >> second term. >> basically, he skipped the line. he doesn't know what it's like to be a rank and file member for a long period of time. nancy pelosi did. she was elected in '87.

she didn't get into serious leadership until the end of the '90s. >> she apprenticed under her father. >> mitch mcconnell, he got into leadership late in the '90s. i think some of this is, kevin mccarthy has not done the groundwork to understand what every rank and file member needs. he has been through the perspective of leadership. i wonder if that's why he doesn't seem to be able to close this deal. nancy pelosi could go and say, i was you. i was the back bencher. i know what it is like. kevin mccarthy, he fast tracked himself. if he fast tracked his way to leadership, why shouldn't these other guys? i wondered how much of his lack of working his way up into the institution is working against him today. >> what's remarkable is that some of these members voting against him are members for whom he contributed and raised money.

>> none of them really needed him. honestly, none of them needed them. >> i would push back. while kevin mccarthy did fast track, he did so because he got -- had good relationships with lots of members. he was a student of what members care about, what they want, what's important to them in their district. he understood a lot of these things. the conclusion is, i don't know there's anything kevin mccarthy could have done. we will go back and look at, what mistakes did he make along the way? i don't know that there was a scenario where any play he made where this -- >> i have been curious about the fear factor. you don't appease your way into power. the moment you start appeasing -- mccarthy has been nothing but an appeaser. it was all to make this moment.. it was all to make this moment. and everybody realized you're willing to appease. then i can roll you. so i think that has been a problem here but i just think

ultimately as someone said to me, tom delay, i asked a veteran member, delay wouldn't get the votes. >> two things would be, one, the difference is between the squad and nancy pelosi was you might be not progressive enough. nancy pelosi was very progressive. so they were dealing with a leader who had the same goals and they had policy priorities. they had sort of real differences on things they could talk about. where you have this 20 members of the republican caucus, you're not even sure what they really want. it's not policy based or they want to see things be more conservative. they have a personal gripe with kevin mccarthy. also when you talk about fear, i remember nancy pelosi when there was talk about her being speaker, you saw a little opposition research and members fall in line. not only because they were they respected her, but because nancy pelosi was saying i can give kbrou a little bit of stuff, but don't try me. that was the fear she was able to also wield with. >> she also knew how to count

votes. and everybody knew that she knew how to count votes. this debacle for the last two days indicates that kevin mccarthy does not know how to count votes. steve kornacki, you're the resident vote counter at the big board. we have gone past 12 now? >> we're halfway through the roll call now what we have been tracking on this list here is these are the 20 who voted for somebody other than kevin mccarthy on third ballot. the whole hope of the mccarthy folks was they would start to chip away at that on the fourth ballot. that you'd start to see only folks peeling off is and coming to mccarthy's side, or at least societying present. that's the other thing. it doesn't count as an official vote if you vote present. they were hoping to get some of that. take you through who vote sod far. byron donalds, who was placeed

in nomination, you can see all the folks who voted on that third ballot yesterday against mccarthy, they have all switched so far to donls. a freshman from florida voted against mccarthy on all three ballots. the form just seems to be holding here. all 20, this is the full list here, we'll see alphabetically if they go with donales. the one thing the mccarthy folks could sayis those who voted for mccarthy have so far all continued to vote for mccarthy on the fourth ballot. we'll see it that changes but as long as all democrats vote for

hakeem jeffries, the most in terms of defection thas can afford is five voting against him and one voting present. otherwise he has to get everybody here on board. >> steve, thanks for that count. as we go through this roll, we're sate waiting to see if there's any defections. but one of the possibilities floated was fred upton a republican who was retired. a moderate republican. what if fred upton, because you don't have to be a member of congress to become speaker, became some sort of compromised choice after many more failed role call attempts. vaughn hillyard has talked to fred upton he's someone who worked with democrats before. he was very close friends from michigan. best friend in the michigan delegation was john dingell. so vaughn hillyard, what did he tell you? >> he served for 34 years.

he's only been retired for 24 hours. i talked to him two hours ago on the phone from his home in michigan. he was the vice chair of the problem solvers caucus. he was one of ten republican who is voted to um peach donald trump. he was one of 12 house republicans who voted for the 2021 infrastructure package. when we're talking about this idea of a consensus pick that potentially a healthy share of democrats could cross party lines and vote on behalf of and pick off a few gop members, more moderate members who respect fred upton, he could be a potential option if we're looking at days ahead in this process. when i talked with fred upton, he told me specifically he still supports mccarthy, but he's not turning down the idea in the house of representatives were to come to him that he would be open to serving as speaker. >> vaughn hillyard reporting on fredupton, who says he's intrigued by the idea.

ali vitali, what kind of mood is there? mccarthy just voted for himself. where does this go? >> reporter: it's the same question we have been asking for two days. i get text messages over the course of the last hour people just saying there's no end in sight here because we're not seeing anything change. the change i'm looking for is if that byron donalds number ticks up past 20, that would be a sign of continued momentum in the wrong direction for kevin mccarthy. but the same would go if he was even able to pick up one or two votes this this round of balloting. that would show momentum they are working towards all of this to unfolding in realtime for us. >> what this reminds me of more than anything else, bill murray and andy mcdonald in ground hogs day. that does it for this edition of

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. good day. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc head quarters in new york city. the unprecedented political drama hits a new level in the house as kevin mccarthy appears to f