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hi there, everyone, here we go again. it's 4:00 in new york. at this hour, the house of representatives is completely and totally paralyzed. it is unable and incapable of swearing in members, forming committees, setting rules for itself, passing legislation even in the case of an emergency, couldn't do any of those things. it's a state of chaos and paralysis that is unprecedent ed in modern american history and it is all because the new republican house majority cannot agree on who should lead it in the 118th congress. house gop leader kevin mccarthy has moved into the speaker's office already, appears to be living by the motto, if at first you don't succeed try, try, try, try, try, try again. he has now lost five votes for the speakership, a sixth vote is underway. it's already clear from the math that mccarthy doesn't have the votes to become speaker of the

house of representatives this time either. democrats for their part quietly made history yesterday by choosing the first black leader to lead the party in congress. democrats have been united through this whole sorry episode for the country. here's what hakeem jeffries told nbc news about the possibility of his caucus getting behind a so-called moderate republican. >> we are looking for a willing partner to solve problems for the american people, not save the republicans from their dysfunction. we need a partner in governance to build upon the incredible progress that we made for the american people over the last few years. by the way, with a similar majority. >> today's chaos, which appears to have no end in sight, no one knows what's going to happen after the sixth vote. it's also a reflection of the disgraced twice impeached ex

president's place and role in reshaping republican politics. it's a fitting coda to an election season in which the majority of his candidates went down in flames, they lost. donald trump's supporter kevin mccarthy or as he calls him, quote, my kevin, appeared to waiver a little bit last night. he said this, quote, we'll see what happens before he reiterated his endorsement of mccarthy on his own social media platform truth social, and yet that endorsement did nothing. it made no difference. 20 republicans voted against mccarthy in votes today, the exact same number that opposed him in the final vote that took place yesterday. the sixth vote is underway. could be a larger number of republicans voting against mccarthy. that is where we begin our coverage with some of our favorite reporters and friends, covering the action on capitol hill, my colleague garrett haake is here, also joining us tim miller former rnc spokesman, now a writer at large for the

bulwark, two former members of congress, donna evans is here and david jolly. day two. garrett haake, you're doing heroic reporting on capitol hill, tell me what's happening where you're standing right now. >> reporter: well, as the nomination speech for kevin mccarthy on the last round indicated, it's ground hog day. i mean, we are going around and around in circles up here with more of these votes, and i think what we're starting to see are some cracks forming in kevin mccarthy's coalition. not so much that they're ready to bolt on him or cave to the rebels here, but an acknowledgment by a strategy which mccarthy is essentiallying with -- essentially being rejected over and over again isn't going to work. we're hearing some members start to talk about maybe we need to start talking about other candidates, meeting in small groups. i don't think there's going to

be any over arching republican conference meeting now. that seemed to have back fired yesterday morning when this all started. something's got to give, and it may give after this vote. it's not clear that there's an appetite to keep pursuing a strategy of vote after vote after vote with only that hour or so, maybe half hour or so when the tellers are working to try to do proper whip work on the floor. we'll see what happens after this ballot here tonight, if members retire for dinner and drinks and an opportunity to meet in smaller groups to try to see what can be worked out here. which the conventional wisdom was was going to work against mccarthy when this all started, the idea that republicans needed to be kept on the floor to feel the pressure. that strategy is clearly out right now, and something else is going to have to give. after, as you pointed out, a much stronger statement today from donald trump after his very lukewarm feelings about mccarthy in a conversation with me last night has had no effect on the rebels today. >> garrett, if you lived in another universe and you landed

on planet earth on november 1st of this year, and you watched the midterms, and then you showed up for work monday and you said who's going to win, you would know it wouldn't be the trump guy, right? he would go down the same way oz did and jody heist. i mean, did kevin mccarthy think trump was sort of the golden ticket to winning? >> reporter: well, i think he thought that trump carried more sway with the far right of his conference than he does. which is probably still true, but even trump can't convince particularly these freedom caucus members who aren't so much small government as they are almost anti-government that they need to govern. that's not in their ethos. you can argue that mccarthy's strategy of embracing trump was terrible from the get-go, but you were always going to lose some people off both sides here, and the mccarthy bet was even if he lost the kind of generic pre-trump republicans by keeping the growing maga caucus on his

side, he could pull this off, that's clearly turned out to not be the case. he's going to have to do it without significant pressure from trump because trump can't do it. >> garrett, what is the voting over and over again predicated on? is it that the insurrection caucus isn't enjoying this? i mean, why does kevin mccarthy think voting over and over again is going to help kevin mccarthy and not the matt gaetz and lauren boboeberts. >> reporter: the way the house is working you need 218 votes in order to do anything including stopping the vote. right now the rebels think it's perfectly great for them to keep embarrassing mccarthy, and democrats are more than happy to watch mccarthy and republicans struggle the way they are. nobody's going to lend mccarthy the votes he needs to get out of this predicament until they're finished with him. >> it's amazing. it sounds like gang violence. garrett haake, what's going to happen next?

>> reporter: at some point tonight i think they're going to break up. i don't think there's an appetite from either side to make this go all night long, and then we're going to see if mccarthy's allies can have more success with these rebels than he has had, and we'll see if the pressure starts to reverse, at what point the pressure grows on mccarthy to maybe step aside for somebody else. i think the challenge on that end of the equation is that 90% of the republican conference who wants mccarthy doesn't even so much want mccarthy as they want to prove that 90% of them should get to make the pick and not these 10% with whom they disagree on tactics and policy in many cases and so many other things. and so backing down from mccarthy, unless it's for an obvious a ha consensus candidate that they can feel excited about doesn't have much appeal for them either. >> an obvious a ha candidate that no one thought of six times ago. garrett, tell me who mr. -- this time yesterday the non-mccarthy red boats were going to jim jordan.

tell me about mr. donalds. >> byron donalds is a second-term lawmaker from florida, he is kind of an associate of lauren boebert, marjorie taylor greene. you see him in their company quite a bit. he was pretty active in the midterms of all things. i saw him when i was doing a story on the nevada senate race stumping for statewide candidates in nevada. he's been growing his profile within the republican conference. he has indicated in interviews today he's not particularly interested in being speaker. he knows he's not going to be the speaker of the house, but i think this is a relatively useful opportunity for him to increase his profile politically as kind of the momentary spokesman for the rebels who have, as we talked about yesterday, this wide ranging list of demands that, you know, nobody could really meet in any serious way. >> does kevin mccarthy seem to be -- i mean, tell me what his state of mind is, does he seem distressed, exasperated does he

walk back into the office sheepishly, what is being kevin mccarthy like right now? >> well, nicolle, c-span viewers know as much as i do about that. as best i can tell mccarthy hasn't left the floor or the adjacent cloak room, or the speakers offices that are attached to the floor. all day long he hasn't come back into the halls. he hasn't availed himself of any opportunity to discuss his feelings with reporters. he's very aware of the cameras. he's very aware that he's in the spotlight right now. he's taken every opportunity to project confidence both in how he appears in his demeanor when he's discussed on the floor and the people he's had giving nominating speeches for. he had a freedom caucus member today, a young up and comer in mike gallagher today, he had his most likely theoretical challengers in steve scalise and jim jordan.

he also admit that had this is not how he thought yesterday now going into today was going to go. >> can you take us inside sort of the human hardship of this. i know some families with kids were there yesterday to see their loved ones sworn in. a lot of them have long since boarded cars, planes, trains back home. what is the human spaerns of the house being in paralysis? >> yeah, look, for members this is their job and life in a lot of cases, particularly for new members. many of these folks have spent the better part of a year and a half on the campaign trail striving for this moment, an opportunity to sit in that chamber and have their photo taken with the speaker as a a newly elected fully established sworn in member of congress. they've all been denied that at this point. you had members and their families, little kids in the chamber. i was talking to one republican member, a pro-mccarthy member had an 8 1/2-month-old daughter, was talking about, you know, not getting that moment with his

family. last night, yesterday many people might have seen there were some really like touching photos of members who are allowed to bring their families into the chamber on opening day with little kids sleeping in chairs next to them. they didn't have that moment, and i think tieing it back to the politics of this, the mccarthy faction thought they would be able to use that as a little bit of leverage. look, we know you gase want to have fun, you want to have your moment, let's get this out of the way first. especially with those four new members who keep voting against mccarthy. they've pushed back on that. everybody's going to suffer together on this it seems. >> garrett, i keep looking at the list of the members voting against mccarthy, andy clyde, lauren boebert, matt gaetz, people enthusiastic about the coup attempt in 2020, and i wonder if anyone is sort of remained or if there are any historical echoes to the fact this is what trump wanted in

2020. he wanted there to be no election results certified. >> i think those echoes are certainly worth pointing out. i mean, i felt it watching scott perry do the latest nomination speech. perry is probably the single republican member most associated with january 6th. he was a central figure in the plot at the doj to upend election results. we know he's been investigated by doj, he's refused to testify despite a subpoena from the january 6th committee. he was referred to the ethics committee for that. there a certain through line here about flouting election results. whale kevin mccarthy hasn't wn any of these votes today, he did win the closed door vote by republican conference to be the speaker in november by a resounding margin. i mean, every time pete aguilar gets up to introduce hakeem jeffries, you probably notice he talks about by the will of the conference, it's my pleasure to put hakeem jeffries into

nomination. he says something to that effect every time. the republican conference has their own rules that kevin mccarthy followed, kevin mccarthy won, he beat anybody that was willing to challenge him behind closed doors and as you point out, a similar group of folks led by scott perry are saying those election results are nice. we don't think they count hear. we're going to do our own thing. >> david jolly, this is what an autocratic faction inside your own party, and this is what permitting it to thrive yields. it yields anti-democratic practices inside your own party. >> yeah, look, in many ways the hijackers have breached the cockpit and taken control of the airplane. these are essentially the same group in a new iteration that started to emerge in 2010 and 2012 as the tea party and manifested into the tea caucus. they were a thorn in the side of john boehner and paul ryan, really bringing down john boehner by apparently what was

going to be a vote of no confidence. they've now taken control. this is the first time they've actually gotten control, which is why i don't think they're going to give it up. if there's going to be a motion to adjourn, it would be interesting how people vote on this. he can't win a vote for speaker, and he can't win a vote for a motion to adjourn. hakeem jeffrey might offer votes to mccarthy to adjourn just for the goodwill of the members, but they really have them. there's one person who can solve this, it's kevin mccarthy, he can withdraw. i think he has to be considering that right now. here's the deal kevin mccarthy can make. kevin can choose the next speaker of the house. his deputies could go to the rebels and say is it steve scalise? if you're a republican today, the house would be in fine hands under steve scalise. i know a lot of people have objection to him for good reason, but kevin mccarthy could help craft who will be the next speaker. it is what boehner did for paul

ryan. in 2015 when mccarthy did not have enough votes, rather than let his opponent win, dan webster of florida, boehner shut everything down and said we're going to hand pick paul ryan and give it to paul ryan. garrett's right about how the rules work. the rules don't make any sense. the way we stopped mccarthy in 2015 was this, behind closed doors you only need 51% of the republican conference. it's not really a concurrence if it's only 51%, but on the floor as we're all watching you need 218. the way we stopped mccarthy in 2015 was exactly this. we withheld sufficient votes on the floor. now in that case mccarthy knew ahead of time, i'm not going to go through what he's going through today. boehner crafted the runway for paul ryan, and that's ultimately how republicans chose him. kevin mccarthy right now at this moment could solve all of this by withdrawing and republicans could have a very conservative

republican speaker by nightfall tonight. >> but this isn't about conservatism. why did everyone want him dead so badly in '15, is it all the same reasons? >> '15 was much of the same issues. the freedom caucus wanted the ability for amendments. there's not been a house amendment on the floor in six years, so the freedom caucus approached this with kind of the rebellious attitude you're seeing and the scorched earth that you're seeing. they're doing that right now. the odd coalition in '15 were just a handful of people like myself who said why aren't we solving immigration and health care and guns and actually doing the work, the people's work, and mccarthy and scalise said because we don't want to do that. it was odd for me at the time to partner with the freedom caucus to nominate the opponent to kevin mccarthy. i was dead to the caucus as soon as i did that, but everybody has to kind of act on their own principles. there's not a pathway now for

kevin mccarthy. it's time for him to withdraw. he knows it. now it's about his ego. >> i want to bring into our coverage, congressman jim himes of connecticut. i guess technically you're congressman-elect, is that correct? >> that's right. >> i thought of you and i wanted to talk to you today because most of our conversations are about vital issues of u.s. national security and foreign policy and the hot war going on right now in ukraine. if there were an international crisis that the gang of eight had to be briefed on, it strikes me that there isn't a gang of eight. >> yeah, no, it's a problem. we're in a funny moment right now. i'm not sure out there in america how many are as interested as a lot of us are that the republicans can't elect a speaker. this has serious implications, yes, for national security. at the end of the day, this congress is going to need to figure out a way to raise the debt ceilings. we've had that fight over time.

if the republican majority can't even elect a speaker, how are we going to preserve the full faith and credit when it comes time to raise the debt ceiling. what really worries me, what an unbelievable e amateur hour this has been. each vote has not helped mccarthy. it has hurt mccarthy. after the second ballot yesterday he lost byron roberts, i'm losing track. he lost victoria sparks who voted present. each and every ballot is moving away from kevin mccarthy, and he's had months to prepare for this. there's a temptation to look at the other party and say, man, are they screwing this up. it has portends of whether this country can govern each other. >> i disagree with you about missing the mark. i wonder if we're all missing the mark on something bigger that these 20 voting against mccarthy, there's sort a

rigidity in our thinking that they want to arrive at a resolution. are you sure they want to resolve this? this is what our aversaies like to see us rife around in dysfunction and paralysis. ? do you think those 20 would like to have a speaker by the end of the day and go on to the business of governing? >> no, i don't, but again, those of us who work inside the beltway sometimes get caught up in this. compared to some of the political dysfunction that say the state of israel has been through in the last 20 years, we're actually still doing okay. what i worry about is what this portends for the future. let me give you a little bit of insight into that group of 20. it's a diverse group. it's an interesting and diverse group, and the reason i think david jolly is right is because, first of all, that group has been getting bigger, not smaller. every ballot has given them more energy. i will tell you from

conversations, i won't say with whom, but certain high profile members. i think there's five, six, seven, maybe eight of them there's nothing you can give them other than kevin mccarthy's head, and i've actually heard one of them say it. look, we're open to anything. we're open to negotiation, we're just not going to do it with kevin, i heard one of them say because kevin lied to me, and then he lied about me. this has become deeply personal for at least a half dozen people on that side and those half dozen people, they, you know, mccarthy can't afford to lose them. >> so if you're able to walk around the floor of the building or wherever -- i mean, you've got a better than normal -- if you were able to learn that, how did kevin mccarthy not know the votes weren't there? >> back to my point with amateur hour. we have not been here within a century, 100 years since the speaker allowed for a vote that went more than one ballot, 100 years. maybe there's a theory where

you're going to start with, you know, five or six votes short. that was the theory, but they started with 19 votes short and the number got bigger over time. my understanding was that in the republican conference meeting yesterday morning, kevin did two things. he berated the 20 or so rebels, and he said i have earned this job. it strikes me that going into the game with a message of entitlement and threats was exactly the wrong thing to do. i take no joy in that because this country has serious things it needs to do in the next two years. >> in your conversations with the five or six members of the 19 to 20 not voting for mccarthy, do they express any names of other people they'd like to see? like do you know who the not kevin alternative is? >> well, it's been sort of strange, right? there was a rumor circulating in the republican side yesterday that the democrats were going to

arrange to have 20 or 30 democrats not show up or reduce the number of votes mccarthy would need and we would do that in the service of getting chi chairs. it was totally made up, and there's that famous moment of a conversation talking to paul gosar, not a typical conversation. she was setting him straight and saying, no, no, believe me we have not agreed to any deal like that. there's just a lot of weird misinformation, and again, you know, don't take it from a democrat. it has been 100 years since we've seen anything like that. we're talking about the third most powerful position in the united states of america that was just so incredibly badly mismanaged. >> do you think that -- well, let me ask you this. should the house adjourn? i mean, is that the best thing for the body? is that -- and if kevin mccarthy wants that, does he have the votes to adjourn? will you give them to him? >> you know, i don't know the answer to that question.

you may see that coming up. when i left the floor 20 minutes ago, the notion was that after this last ballot that there would be a motion to adjourn and that the democrats might support it. it's not that late in the day. i think there's this notion developing, you heard david jolly say it, if we all go our separate ways, that's it for kevin mccarthy. he has spent his life in the service of this ambition, so now you have sort of a personal psychological question of when does kevin mccarthy realize that what he's worked for for very many years is just not going to happen, and until he makes the decision and realizes that that is true, look, you can adjourn, you can bring us back. we've now had six ballots where the results have been progressively worse. how you decide to let that keep running is beyond me. >> do you have any personal feelings about kevin mccarthy not being -- kevin mccarthy moved into the speaker's office, kevin mccarthy thought kevin mccarthy was going to be the

next speaker. how do you feel about somebody else? >> well, you know, i'm a sucker for the kind of west wing thinking that is starting to verbal up there which is could you put together a bipartisan coalition that maybe the democrats would trade certain votes, certain committee membership, you know, co-chairs of committees in favor of supporting somebody who you hear fred upton's mentioning, a very moderate republican. i really do believe in bipartisanship, and mccarthy has not distinguished himself by bipartisanship. i'll tell you this, i know i speak to each and every last one of us democrats, not a single one of us are breaking to help kevin mccarthy or any other republicans until our leader, hakeem jeffries negotiates something that is consistent with the values and the progress that we've made over these last couple of years. don't hold your breath for that until the republicans come to us and say, you know, we need you guys and here's what we're

willing to negotiate. >> do you want to give us a theory of the case? you're part of the body. you know more people on the other side of the aisle than many of your democratic colleagues. what is your sense of how this plays out? >> my bet and this has been my bet for the last couple of days, and i'm stronger in my belief in this than i was two days ago, which is that the republican conference can end this really quickly by choosing somebody other than kevin mccarthy. and again, that has nothing to do with jim haim's feelings about kevin mccarthy. it has to do with the conversations i've had with a handful of the rebels on that side. my guess is i think this is very painful for my friends on the other side of the aisle. a lot of the rebels have gotten the camera time and the fame they were looking for. they're now legitimate antiestablishment warriors. it is getting a little painful hear. my best guess if they settle on somebody else, i don't know who it is, if they settle on somebody else, i think that takes a very big step forward in a corrective way for the

republicans. >> congressman-elect jim himes, thank you very much for spending some time with us. i hope the next time we talk you are a congressman again. i guess we won't hold our breath anymore. >> we're getting some real work done. >> it's very nice to see you. thank you so much. come back if anything changes in the next 90 minutes. i want to bring in the rest of our friends, tim miller, your thoughts about what we're watching. you have a brilliant peace out today. we knew the never trump, never kevin republicans knew that kevin dnt have the votes. >> we did. i've got to shout out your colleague there, david jolly who i think it was election week, who said he doesn't think kevin mccarthy will ever hold the gavel. >> he said it on my air on the sixth floor and i think find david jolly. this is like the floor of the house. we won't let him leave. >> yeah, and so here's why david

jolly knew it, and here's how we saw it clearly. we've seen the change in the republican caucus. while kevin mccarthy and all of the others that have tried to kind of navigate this, you know, old republican donor class, new maga world, you know, environment, they don't realize just how crazy the conference has gotten over the last few years. jolly knows this better than anybody. here's one prime example, byron donalds, this man they're putting up now as the alternative speaker candidate. he replaced francis rooney. he was a house member that was one of the rare only one or two that was open to the first trumped impeachment. rooney gets run out on a rail because he just expressed openness to the fact that, hey, maybe we should look at the evidence hear about whether the president of the united states was threatening one of our ally in order to dig up dirt on his political opponents.

francis rooney wasn't a moderate in any meaningful sense. he gets run out. he's now replaced with donalds who is a maga type of member, now they're putting him up. that change happened all throughout the conference. what we're seeing here is kevin mccarthy reaping what he has sowed and what the party hassed. -- sowed. the party has been a magnet for grifters and performance artists and nigh liss to just want to see their face on fox and don't give a rip about the american people. this is the result when your party is a magnet for those types of members. in a different world david jolly wouldn't be on this set. the david jollies and francis rooneys of the world got pushed out. they've been replaced with these may matt gaetzs, all the other whacko birds with no ideology,

no policy objectives. just want to see their face on tv, want to see the world burn, want to fight the libs. kevin mccarthy thought he could still manage that. all of us who have been expelled from the party were able to see more clearly than he was that he couldn't manage it. >> tim, let's be a little more blunt than that. >> more blunt? >> it's not -- and they're not rebels. i'm not going to use that word. they're coup plotters, 19 house republicans were in the roosevelt room, which is four steps away from the oval office helping donald trump overturn the results of the 2016 election, that sent all of them back. their names were on all the ballots they were trying to troy. matt gaetz is under criminal investigation for child sex trafficking. i don't have the full list up but at least a handful of them are under federal criminal scrutiny for their role in january 6th. so they're not rebels, they're

coup plotters. they're insurrectionists and they're anarchists. so i worry that they're being described as rebels who have a few good policy ideas in terms of governance and if is their will to knock out kevin mccarthy. i have been covering kevin mccarthy's lack of that body part called a spine for years. i have no affinity for kevin mccarthy, but kevin mccarthy didn't just tolerate marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar. he refused to purge them. >> the total number of votes cast is -- >> you're singing from my hymn book. >> let's listen to this. >> the honorable hakeem jeffries of the state of new york has received 212. [ cheers and applause ]

>> the honorable kevin mccarthy of the state of california has received 201. [ cheers and applause ] the honorable byron donalds of the state of florida has received 20. [ cheers and applause ] one member as present, no member elect having received the majority of the votes cast, a speaker has not been elected. for what purpose duz the

gentleman from oklahoma rise. >> i move that we adjourn until 8:00 this evening. >> the question is on the motion to adjourn. >> all those in favor say aye. >> aye. >> all those opposed no. >> no. >> the ayes have it. the motion is adopted. >> is a member demanding the ayes and nays? the motion is adopted. the house stands adjourned until 8:00 p.m. tonight. >> garrett, are you still with us? are you sure the -- who had that? >> so two things. >> hang on. is garrett there? >> reporter: yeah, i'm here. can you hear me, nicolle?

>> yeah, that sounded -- maybe her acoustics are better than ours. sounded pretty close, if there's a roll call would the ayes have had it? >> what you may have had there is democrat shouting no, but maybe just shouting now to rib the republicans a little bit more so than wanting to actually get the proper roll call on it. nobody asking for the yeas and nays indicates everybody's pretty much agreed to this as jim himes suggested maybe the case. adjournment until 8:00 tonight. it is had not clear what's going to happen them. tom cole is a mccarthy ally. he would be the chair of the rules committee if there were ever to be a rules committee in this congress. i think this is probably the best arrangement that mccarthy could negotiate hear, whether it's his idea to come back at 8:00 or whether that's as far back as he could push it with the 20 is not clear at this point. it gives them time off the floor away from the cameras.

away from us if they can find a way to do it to have some of these private conversations that will be necessary to break this log jam one way or the other. >> david. >> yeah, a couple of tea leaves to read here. garrett's exactly right. any member could have asked for a roll call, which suggests that jeffries decided in good faith to let the republicans adjourn and suggest the 20 never mccarthy people have decided not not to play that card. either jeffries or the rebels could have stopped that motion right there and they chose not to. which is interesting. maybe they're just going to dinner. i doubt it. the most telling thing is that the adjournment is only until 8:00 tonight. and as garrett said, maybe that's the best deal mccarthy could get. what it does say is that somebody expects action tonight, that this is not go home for a little while and see if kevin can figure something else out. i would suspect kevin might be in a position of coming back at 8:00 and saying he's out.

i think that's a real possibility because between now and 8:00 p.m., there's nothing else that's going to change that gives kevin the votes, and one thing that we have talked about is the constituent pressure on those 20, i've had an opportunity to see some of the electronic communications to one hoff those members in particular. there is no way one of those 20 can easily back out and surf survive the home district pressure. they are seen as these warriors going to topple mccarthy. >> rebels at least in my childhood were a good thing. garrett, i heard you were waving. you've got more. >> i think david's analysis may be good here. i don't have any independent reporting on the idea of mccarthy dropping out. the question that has troubled me through this entire process and did as i was listening to your conversation with jim himes remains if not mccarthy who? mccarthy has plenty of faults. we've talked about them at length on this show. but he's really good at internal

kind of -- his constituency is the membership, and he's really good at that variety of politics. there are very, very few people within the republican conference as it's currently constituted who have those skills. that's why the idea of elevating jim jordan yesterday was so farfetched. jim jordan doesn't do that kind of thing. he opportunity want to do it. he knew he wouldn't be good at it. just the list is vanishly short of people who would have the credibility to put together a coalition that could win over the 20 without losing a whole bunch of other people on the other side. there just is a very, very short bench of people with that particular set of political skills in this republican conference. >> who is it, garrett? >> maybe steve scalise. the problem is the people on the leadership team tend to be the folks who have that set of skills. this leadership team is in many ways tainted by the same complaints about martha the 20 have. their close to k. street, they have gone along with allowing various bills to pass that

members of this 20 holdouts think should have been held out, think should have been forc dow. scalise is perhaps too close. hudson probably too green. emmer, maybe, sure, somebody who has the skills perhaps but it's just not there. you know, i'm working through the list in my head here, and the folks who have the skills have also kind of looked around and said i don't want this. patrick mchenry is a good example. he's somebody who's been around a long time, has been in leadership, was the chief deputy whip, i believes in the previous congress for republicans and looked around at the landscape and said i think i'd rather be a committee chair. i don't want to have anything tad with this. that's going to be a real, real challenge, don't just come back and say, good, we figured this out. it's a mess even without mccarthy. >> david, you said it yesterday,

who's the eighth most powerful republican? >> that's exactly right. denny has ert was the chief executive whip. mchenry's chosen -- you could reach to a mchenry or somebody like that in this situation. garrett's right with such a slim majority that person still can only lose four votes, and who in the caucus can do that. that's where if himes was correct that these 20 never mccarthy people get past it, they might take a deal from scalise where they get exactly what kevin mccarthy was going to give them. >> first of all, i actually never thought that kevin mccarthy was going to be speaker. i think i said it more than a year ago because he's really a

weak link. and this last couple of days really just proves that. i suspect that when they come back after dinner that mccarthy is going to end up withdrawing. my good money has always been on steve scalise because he is seen as sort of allied enough with the right of the party, and not completely attached to the leadership that he may be that consensus that comes out, and i think that hakeem jeffries was right yesterday when he said that there's no reason for democrats to go -- walk the plank to negotiate through the republican dysfunction. democrats are in a great position right now, frankly, to just watch this and threat play out, and then to tray to leverage their unity to get some things done out of a very

fractured and damaged republican party. it's hard to see how anybody comes into leadership among republicans that isn't going to suffer the fate of john boehner and paul ryan given the fractured party that exists right now. >> so perfectly put, donna, that he's a weak link. i think many of the flash points that we've covered of kevin mccarthy and the most i know about mr. gsar was when his family came out on television to speak out about how dangerous they thought paul gosar, their relative was. kevin mccarthy wasn't on tv calling for him to be sanctioned or punished. marjorie taylor green threats the physical safe and space of a democratic member. kevin mccarthy has sought to cuddle up and cozy up to each

and every one of the 20 members voting against him for two years. what is it that they found so loathsome that they took the political cover he gave them and are now reveling in his political death. >> well, it's so interesting are because i think tim miller said that, you know, reap what you sow, and kevin mccarthy made a flawed calculation that by either being quiet about some of his members who were completely outrageous or seideling up to donald trump, or trying to win over the maga wing of the party, that that would somehow insulate him from their rebuke. clearly that's not true. in fact, these members over the last day and a half are actually digging in in their opposition. so mccarthy really doesn't have anywhere to go. he actually only has himself to blame for the predicament he's in now, and clearly he also thought that raising a lot of

money for these republicans and spreading himself across the country that that would help. this is not a party that's particularly interested in who raises the most money for them. >> so tim miller, before we went and listened in to the floor, you and i were having a conversation about the most blunt analysis of kevin mccarthy. this is what i was getting at. he didn't just stay quiet when marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar and scott perry and matt gaetz went about the business of planning a coup and seeking federal pardons for their role, which they wouldn't have sought a pardon if they weren't aware they were committing krams. this is someone who created safe spaces for the worst elements of the right, creating a permission structure for -- kevin mccarthy stays silent, and to see him now be the victim of this group, it feels like a pump the brakes moment, but it won't be that, will it?

>> no, it won't. that is kind of gratifying to see him being humiliated by this group. i think you're right about two things. i totally agree, it rubs me the wrong way to call them e rebels too. they really are nigh lists and insurrectionists. they don't even have a policy agenda they're objecting to here. they want to burn everything down, and they are insurrectionists, ralph norman i'd lake to shout out. he was texting mark meadows calling for martial law and he literally wanted a military kaup. coup. that is the tape of group we are dealing with here. kevin coddled them because he thought that coddling them was the path to the speakership. he enabled them. after the capitol was stormed, kevin could have tried to whip people to not vote to overturn the election. they all gathered back and held the voted again. he could have whipped against

that. he could have tried to convince his members that this was a motel to unite for democracy. he didn't do that. in the weeks that followed, he could have kept pushing the for the impeachment. instead he flew down to mar-a-lago, he could have helped liz chcheney, he didn't do that. he really made his own bed here by getting in with the insurrectionists and the nile lists. it was a flawed calculus and he did it all to himself. >> you look at the politics of appeasement in world history, there's not a single example where it prevails, where it works. i wonder, again, tim, where that came from. >> i think it came from a place of cowardice, right, and i think that it didn't work -- it never works in world history in the long run, right? i think if you're kevin mccarthy, you're like can i

survive long enough to get that portrait on the wall, right? i think that's what he thought. he knew that his end game was going to be the same as john boehner's end game and paul ryan's end game. eventually these folks were going to throw him overboard, he thought if he was better at appeasing them than ryan and boehner was, if he sucked up harder, gave them a longer leash, that they would let him, you know, be led by the tail and get the speakership he had always dreamed of, and that was a flawed calculus. maybe had he won a bigger majority that strategy might have actually worked for a little while. he might have been speaker for a few months until the first crisis when he needed track votes. >> i think that is what he was thinking of, it was inevitably going to end like this. i don't think he thought it was going to end in as humiliating fashion. >> just a little bit of new reporting on mccarthy.

he doesn't think it's the end. he spoke to a couple of reporters on his way out the door saying they need to get together. they're going to have some conversations, work through this, but reiterated when he was asked repeatedly that he's not going anywhere and made the point, again, that the 90% of the republican conference that back him to not want to have the result dictated by the ten, and that seems to be the rallying point here now for the rest of the conference that it's not about mccarthy. it's about letting majority of republicans staten island who's -- decide who's going to lead their party. dan crenshaw doubled down on this, talking about those four freshman who voted against mccarthy, saying what kind of idiot would come to work on their first day and vote against the boss. it shows people aren't kind of following the rules as they are expected to be done in the house. obviously these are people who don't particularly care about the rules of the house as they're meant to be. that appears to be the way that mccarthy is going to tray to rally his troops in these next

three and a half hours or so is the idea of not letting the 90 be held hostage by the ten. >> i don't know what to do anymore, whether to laugh because the will of the 90 prevails over the will of the ten is a tenet of democratic practices. do you think that kevin mccarthy regrets voting to overturn the results of the track presidential election of 2020 after the deadly insurrection? >> i think he does not. i think his numbers would probably be worse if he hadn't voted the way he had, and i think that is the way he's thinking about this right now, if he's thinking about that vote at all. >> it is so sick that you run out of words, david jolly. >> yeah, look, this is the -- this is the inevitable trajectory of today's republican party that started ten years ago. what i would say based on fwar garrett's reporting if that is the case, vanity and ambition often cloud your judgment. it's true in life, true in

politics. he does not have a pathway to be speaker of the house. he can be angry about it. he can be upset that the 10% have stopped him. the truth is under the rules of the house, he needs 218 votes and he doesn't have them, and he's not going to get them, and now it's his egothat's driving his judgment. he needs to reconsider. if he really thinks he's going to stay in this, he should reconsider. >> this argument, actually, i get it. i still believe in democratic principles, which is why i left the republican party, but it doesn't mean if x and y, if you believe in a democratic process, then kevin mccarthy's the only y. the 90 could agree on somebody else. >> that's it. i think that's the important thing to add to your calculus. i agree with you, in terms o. rules of the republican conference, the party he has won the right to be the speaker of the house. but under the rules of the house. >> he can't get there. >> he does not satisfy the threshold, and that is a greater rule, if you will, a greater standard than one that the party

made up for itself. the rules of the house require a majority of members to elect the speaker of the house, and kevin mccarthy does not have the votes. kevin needs to understand that and realize that and withdraw. the world is simply going to continue watching this exercise for nothing more than egoand ambition. >> what part of this pisses you off? is it because you still have reverence for the body? >> of course. i guess what it is is kevin mccarthy owes the institution the proper decision in this moment. he's fighting for his own political career. he's fighting for his own ambition. for his own ambition. he could give the house over to a custodian that matches up with all of the ideologies he wishes to right now, and the house could be served properly by that

person. kevin instead wants that person to be him, and he won't -- >> and only him. >> and only him. and he won't step out. and this has been his achilles' heel from the very beginning. he arrived in congress and wanted the pathway to be speaker of the house. garret is right, he studied every single congressional district. he would come to you and know more about your district than you did because he was always working towards the opportunity to lead the house. it's okay to come up short. kevin's come up short. he needs to accept that truth. >> i keep wondering where liz cheney is and if we can put a webcam on her face. >> so do i. i wondered the other day when there was all this discussion about maybe someone who could be offered up to be speaker who's outside of the congress. but i think she must be smiling out there. i mean when you think about kevin mccarthy, no one can

identify an ideology, a set of values, things that he believes in. and i think that is why -- part of why he's caught in this moment right now because there aren't people around him who can say i'm for kevin mccarthy because of these set of things, you know, we share together. and i think that for mccarthy it's always just been about the power of becoming speaker and not about what you do with that, what you do with that power, how you govern, how you serve. and this is his undoing, but it's his own creation. and i think that the adam kinzingers and the liz cheneys out there and those folks who voted for the impeachment but then lost their elections, must be sitting back saying, you know, kevin mccarthy is getting everything that he deserved. and look, this is not a question

of whether mccarthy is thinking about the good of the institution. he's always thought of himself as just gaining the power to head that institution but not about what the institution does. because if that had been the case he wouldn't have sidled up to donald trump after donald trump was already dead following the last election. so we'll just have to see this play out to the end. look all of us -- some of us have been candidates. i've been a candidate who's lost an election. at some point you have to accept it because the numbers simply don't work out. and i don't know who the wise men are and women who are going to go to kevin mccarthy and say you know what, dude, it's over. >> listen, no one did that in 2020 with donald trump, so i don't think we should hold our breath and look for anyone to do that with kevin mccarthy in 2023. tim, i want to deal with this question of the institution. david jolly's sort of i can watch the blood boil as the

events sort of come in because of his reverence for the institution. kevin mccarthy has no reverence for the institution, if he did he would have been interested in investigating the insurrection that literally threatened the physical and actual institution of the united states congress, the seat of government. he's not an institutionalist, not a moderate, not a normal republican by any standard. and it's been a very fast snap of history. i mean republican house members have always sort of been the most politically raunchy, if you will. they've always dabbled in the most extreme ideologies, but steve king was too radical. i mean he was purged by the house republican caucus. this is new, and this is an innovation of kevin mccarthy to tolerate violence, to tolerate threats to other members of the body, tolerate anti-democratic decertification of the same ballots that your own elections are certified and voted on. this is new. he deserves everything that he

is getting. >> indeed. and i i'd add to the list of people who feel vindicated and happy kevin is getting his comeuppance today to the capitol police. it's not not enjoying kevin mccarthy having to suffer today to the indignity in which he traded the capitol police. here's the sad thing that i think it's hard for people to wrap their heads around, people who want to see the best of both sides is there aren't many institutionalists in the house. talking about the west wing option of getting a group of republicans, about getting republicans together with democrats, right, to come up with a compromised solution. the problem is the number of republicans that did that bill is so small. eight of the ten impeachers have been thrust out of the

conference with only two left. there are a handful of additional people that voted at least for the january 6th committee, maybe about a half dozen who are left. maybe one or two new members who have some reverence so far that have spoken out against trump, people in biden districts. so you're really talking about a dozen in the entire house conference who can be described as institutionalists, people who care a whit about protecting this body, who might be open and willing to some kind of collaboration with the democrats. it's just too small to pull the fish from, and it's a sad reality of what's happened to the republican conference. when you can sit and watch the capitol get storm asked have a majority of your party go back after the insurrection and vote still to put donald trump in power that has a way of weeding out the institutionalists. a bunch lost in primaries, and

the state of the republican is anti-institution right now. >> you're also good. tim miller, dona, david jolly, thank you so much for spending time with us. our special coverage of this seemingly endless race for the house continues after a very short break. don't go anywhere. after a very short break. don't go anywhere. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more. a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days! cold coming on? zicam is the number one cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold! people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪customize and save♪ only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪

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well, we fell in love through gaming. but now the internet lags and it throws the whole thing off. when did you first discover this lag? i signed us up for t-mobile home internet. ugh! but, we found other interests. i guess we have. [both] finch! let's go! oh yeah! it's not the same. what could you do to solve the problem? we could get xfinity? that's actually super adult of you to suggest. i can't wait to squad up. i love it when you talk nerdy to me. guy, guys, guys, we're still in session. and i don't know what the heck you're talking about.

what we saw was the true character of the modern day republican party, obsessed with power and their own personal advancement at the expense of working families and the needs of every day americans. this is a crisis of the

congress, and it's a crisis at the hands of the republican dysfunction. >> hi, again, everyone. at this hour the country does not have a speaker of the house, which means the country does not have a working house of representatives or a functional congressional. after six votes over the past two days house republicans have yet to reach consensus on who will be their leader. the house adjourned in the last hour. it will resume at 8:00 p.m. tonight. the 20 republicans who voted against kevin mccarthy yesterday maintained their opposition today. we also saw one mccarthy vote from yesterday turn into a present vote for today meaning mccarthy only has 201 votes. he needs 218 to become speaker. meanwhile democrats who have displayed a united front for all six votes have made clear they're in this for the long haul. they tweeted out during the

fifth ballot the democratic leadership sent out a notice that reads, quote, please be advised that the plan for us is to stay in town into the foreseeable future as long as we don't have a speaker, that means past tomorrow and through the weekend. we will see how long republicans keep this up. last night the conservative wall street journal editorial board had had enough. that board wrote this, quote, house republicans have won two years in the majority to show the electorate they can govern better than democrats and president biden. they're getting off to the kind of start that will persuade even their own voters to send them back to the minority. nbc news correspondent ali vitally joins us from capitol hill, cornell belcher back, democratic pollster, our friend eddie glaud is here, the chair of african american studies at princeton university. david, cornell, and eddie are

all msnbc contributors. gary reported at the end of the last hour on his way off the floor kevin mccarthy basically said i'm not going anywhere, but david jolly off the air made a small point that's kevin mccarthy's view of things. that may not be the view of some of his allies. >> reporter: his allies are still of the mind-set, though, he's holding strong, even though some are incredulous this has stretched on as long as it has. we're kind of in the same place although three ballots greater in size which is neither side here wants to blame, everyone is dug in. the thinking with these intervening few hours where they're off the floor and in a period of pause, effectively, is to let these folks mccarthy has deputized to talk with the freedom caucus, do their work, do their whispering, which is fine except that's what they've been doing for several hours and

several days. that's how they came back this morning coffee in hand. the problem is the more they talk to these freedom caucus members, yes, some of them have procedural things they'd like to see in a rules package. oats want to talk about who's on committee and what priority they get there. some of them want that motion to vacate the chair. fine, but for some of them it still remains their problem is kevin mccarthy and that's the thing he can't trade away. he can't become someone else. and that's where things stand at this point is this a kevin mccarthy problem and is the only way out for mccarthy to find a way out? and that's what we're trying to ask and answer here as folks are again meeting behind closed doors and find a way out of the stalemate. >> ali, tim miller made the point these aren't rebels, they're mobile hold outs or nihilists in terms of their view of government.

>> that's part of the problem is the specifics of what they're asking for at this point are kind of shrouded, and part of the thing these negotiators are trying to figure out is if there are specifics or if the whole point of this is to hold out for the sake of holding out and keep kevin mccarthy from actually getting the gavel. that is potentially one of the things here. in these 19 to 20 people they have individual things. it's not like knock one domino out and the rest follow suit. these are 19 individual negotiations they're having in realtime as they try to figure out what's going forward. it makes it very hard for people like mchenry who's experienced at this and among those five deputies that mccarthy has tapped to lead these conversations. it makes it hard for brian fitzpatrick who's another one of those deputies leading those conversation. it seems at this point what the specific sticking points are, and brings us back to the idea, again, this might just be a mccarthy problem.

and frankly, we've seen him in this position before. >> david jolly was talking about that recent history in 2015. what is the dynamic on the hill in terms of the human toll of this delay and of the reality that all members now are just congress men and women-elect? >> you are really starting to feel the exhaustion, the frustration. the fact is they are members elect, and so they have family members who are in town hoping to see their loved ones sworn in at some point. that's one of the key sticking points here. and our colleague chuck todd put it so well, the lights are in the house, but no one is actually technically home because nothing can actually happen here in the house until they pick a speaker. it fact you started to see in that sixth ballot more shouting on the floor, more exchanges between democrats and republicans, it speaks to the vibe here in the house chamber that people are getting frustrated. and it seems like the more exhausted folks get, the more

that might work against kevin mccarthy because in the last few hours especially since they came off the floor around 4:00 i've started today hear more whispers for people about what it might look like for republicans to try to work with democrats on this. there would be many, many reasons for democrats not to play ball and help republicans out here but for example congressman ro khanna has been talking about subpoena por maybe that could come into play. it feels like a pipe dream, but there is more desperation coming into play the longer these republicans try to chase their own tails behind closed doors and in these negotiation meetings. that is something new in last few hours, more whispers that i've been hearing from my sources about, okay, if we keep running into this wall, where's another way we can try. >> something else garret

reported in the last hour, ali, is that mccarthy and his deputies are holding onto is a democratic one, that 90% of the caucus wants kevin and 10% of the caucus, these 20 members and growing, want somebody else. and there's something so preciously ironic about kevin mccarthy who was so willing to subvert our democracy in 2020 clinging to and actually making -- having the audacity to make an argument about small "d" democratic principles to champion otherwise hen path forward and his own stay in a race. is there anyone on planet earth there who realizes how ironic that is, or am i talking about the wrong building in washington? >> certainly democrats haven't lost that irony, and i think that's part of why they're relishing so much what's happening around republicans and kevin mccarthy. again, this is a conference we've seen rebuilt in the trumpian image where they're willing to put their need for

victory above the basic functions of small "d" democracy. and for kevin mccarthy he has the same line he's been saying over and over again, which is that he won't be held hostage by the 10% of people who he doesn't currently have the backing of. and it's true, he has on paper done more than anybody to get republicans in the position of having a majority. he did the fund-raising. he did the travel. he did the candidate recruitment, and he did it for years. and it's also possible that's just not ever going to be enough because these 20 members are happy to go round for round because they know with each round they go on, it's another embarrassment to mccarthy, another notch against him. and exhaustion at this point does seem to be working against him with people just trying to find any other road to get from "a" to "b," which is electing a speaker. >> i want to bring in david plouffe. david, your reaction to what's happening over the last two

days. >> first of all, it should scare us as americans because if this group can't elect a house speaker unless they cut a deal with democrats that has a bunch of concessions how on earth are they going to pass anything like a debt ceiling. so it should scare us all. i used to work on capitol hill a long time ago, so there's so much behind the scenes we may not know. but the question of all these things in a situation like this is who's got the off-ramp, what's likely to change? and it seems like these 20 and maybe that grows are not looking for an offering. can so the question is kevin mccarthy certainly is not but i think you might see more people supporting mccarthy. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. they have options. at the end of the day you have to ask what's going to change. this is a stare down and someone's got to blink. the 20 i don't think are going to blink particularly if that grows. if you look at what the exit game here is eventually you have to think that some of these

people who are for mccarthy will begin to open their ears more to a scenario because i don't think this is individual negotiations. their problem is with mccarthy and i don't think that's going to change. the other thing is let's say it's not mccarthy, let's say it's someone else. the question is what's the over under on how many house speakers there'll be over the next two years, two, three, four? certainly not one. while it may be fun for democrats to watch it now i think the country is going to pay a pretty severe price given the dysfunction that's going to get more serious in the weeks and months ahead. >> i want to bring in a couple other elements and couple more members of our panel. but let me play this. this is representative collin allred on our network earlier today on the unprecedented nature of this and what this means. we don't have a house of representatives right now. >> well, we're lucky, that we

haven't had a crisis around the country or around the world that requires the congress to respond because you are being polite to me when you call me congressman. i'm not congressman right now. i'm congressman-elect. the house of representatives has not formed, we're not working. >> are you getting paid? >> i actually don't know. and we were joking last night on the floor about that. we're saying are we going to have to try and get back pay for this? because we're not sworn in. we're actually just kind of operating a little bit on faith here. we've moved into offices that are not authorized. it's a complete mess, halle. >> it seems so much of what was rejected by the american voter in november was, one, donald trump's hand picked candidates.

talk about the ramifications of this now 48-hour debacle staged by republicans. >> i was thinking as you led into that piece with colin, the word unprecedented seem tuesday be used all the time in so many different ways, the unprecedented election of donald trump, the unprecedented insurrection of the capitol, the unprecedented snowstorms, the unprecedented floods, the unprecedented tragic thing that happened on monday night football in cincinnati and the unprecedented melt down of an airline and now this unprecedented situation in washington. i think it's a reflection broadly of the time we're in and whether leaders step up or not then determines whether or not the results are tragic or the results are bad versus whether

you get through it and reform yourself and get better in the midst of this. and i know you started this at the end of your last hour, but i think it's really important not to fully separate the 20 from the other 190 or whatever that number is, 200. you can't separate the two because they both basically operate from the same principle, right? the 20 may be keeping kevin mccarthy from being speaker, the vast majority of the people voting for kevin mccarthy have no interest in the institution, no interest in democracy as demonstrated by votes. so i don't think you can say all these 20 crazies, well, huge part of the 190 or 200 are of the exact same ilic, they just are taking a stand with evkevin mccarthy as opposed to opposed to kevin mccarthy in the midst of this. it seems at this moment slightly humorous and, you know, bizarre and crazy and all that, but the ramifications of this are going

to come home to roost at some point. and i would say the election results are as you described with one exception. they obviously gave the house to the republicans. the voters gave the house to republicans. we can blame it on gerrymandering, whatever. it was the only institution in our country that gave power to the elements of our society that are anti-democratic. and look at the result of that. the senate is functioning fine. governors offices are functioning fine. secretaries of states offices are functioning fine. state legislative branches are functioning fine. the only place that isn't functioning is the place that republicans were able to win, and that is a telling sign -- should be a telling sign for voters ahead in future elections. >> but, matt, i don't know we should cover it as a breaking news, shocking, unprecedented story. it's what they stand for. and we know it now because they stood for it two years ago after a deadly insurrection in which a woman was shot in the chamber in which they served, they voted to overturn the results of the

elections on which they were re-elected. ballots don't have -- there's no one ballot for congress and another ballot for president. a voter in a district goes to the polls and they vote for their choice for congress and vote for their choice for president and the other order. i guess this is continuation of -- and you're right, it wasn't 19. it was over 100 republicans who were anti-democratic then. >> so i agree with you, it can be unprecedented and we can say it's unpres dnlted. >> i agree it's unprecedented. i'm just saying it's not new. >> let me compare this with climate change. let's compare what's happening with republicans to climate change. think about it the same way. it's not all of a sudden we get 12 inches of rain in pennsylvania and it's a singular event or we get 3 feet of snow in nevada and it's a singular event or a drought in africa and it's a singular event. they're all unprecedented

individually, but they're all connected to a broader problem. that's exactly what's happening with the republican party. this has been a coming sign, and i would disagree with david jolly who said the last 10 years. i would say it's been coming the last 20 or 25 years if you look at what's happening. george w. bush managed to manage his way through it and not enable the crazy and try to keep it at bay. but basically it's been coming just like climate change has been coming. and now this week is a mass flood event, right? this is a mass flood event that's happening in the midst of this where they can't decide on a speaker. i think the damage we don't go fully yet from this and from the months ahead as david described, but this is both unprecedented and very well-expected if we watch what's been happening for the last 20 years. >> so cornell, i included that wall street journal editorial for a couple reasons. one, there's no news

organization in america that did more to launder and create a permission structure for elite republicans to go along for the trump ride than "the wall street journal" editorial page. because even fox on the right is sort of political porn, right? they don't admit to watching it in their fancy clubs, but the journal is on every table. it's in every office, and the editorial page by laundderring the judicial picks and the economic policy and deregulation created a permission structure to support trump, to vote for him, to donate to trump. but they know what we all know, which is that the crazies aren't outliers. they are the gop. and what is on display right now isn't episodic. it is definitional. this is what the republican party is right now. >> well, you know, i want to say that i'm not surprised that "the wall street journal" is now

turning in this direction given that i've talked to a lot of my new yorker friends and wall street is kind of concerned by this governing by crisis. i do want to do a little bit of washington reporting. i'm not on the same level as your real reporters. i'm doing reporting from cocktail parties from last night and receptions. >> the best reporting there is. >> one of the good things about being in d.c. is you're so close to it, and you actually go to cocktail receptions and talk to members of congress. >> tell us everything. >> nicole, i'm struck by a couple of things. one is this picks up on what the reporting that they just did, a couple members of congress poined out how dangerous this is, that right now if we had a national crisis the congress wouldn't be able to do anything, that this is actually -- this is actually really, really dangerous and we were talking about unprecedented. but it's unprecedented and dangerous, and it's probably not

the last unprecedented dangerous position our country will be in because of this republican congress. the other part -- and i was really struck by this, that several members pointed out that they were amazed that after given thattist fairly clear to them kevin mccarthy wasn't going to get there with the holdouts, that there was no serious, you know, coming across to the leadership on the democratic side and offering up anything to try to sort of compromise or get -- or get any sort of a compromised government happening here. and several of them talked about the sort of things that typically would happen. you know, some members of congress was like committee ratios are a really big, important thing. and there were little things they were really surprised at no point yesterday -- yesterday evening was there any reaching across and trying to find sort of compromise in any of this. the other and last point about this, nicole, is you guys have

been talking about the rebellion and don't call them rebels. they're not rebels, and they're insurrectionists, and many thought we had put down an insurrection on january 6th. we did. the insurrection continues, and that's what this is. this is the continuation of the insurrection that i would actually argue started before january 6th, but we certainly didn't put down on january 6th. >> i completely agree with you. and i think it's dangerous to call them rebels or free thinkers or the reconstituted freedom caucus. and it troubles me -- i think eddie glaud -- i have learned from you we're not seeing something burst up from the earth's core and seeing it for the first time. we're seeing the republican party not just exactly as they

are but as they want to be seen. i best my last dollar they're on the air waves now boasting. and you know who the most watched media figure on the right is. it's tucker carlson. you know who hates kevin mccarthy the most is tucker carlson. i think susan glasser tweeted something, the idea that some group of elders can come in and fix this striking the utter lack of grownups in the house gop, there's no party elder to step in. they're all gone, purged, crisis was many years in the making. there was no one manning the red phone. this is it. this is what we have running as matt dowd said, one of the institutions of government in our country. >> you know, i completely agree. and it's -- as david said it's a dangerous moment. as cornell said we need to read this as in some ways the second act or the third act of what

happened in january 6th or what happened before, but there's a connection here in terms of not so much trying to overthrow an election but to undermine the very framework the foundation of our democracy. i think we need to see this in that light. so what does it mean to over and over again, nicole, and this is something you've been hitting on over and over again, what does it mean to not hold these people to account for what they've been doing and what they have done? when we let them loose in the political system as we've done this is what happens, right? so i think you're absolutely right to describe the republican party as these folk. and then we have to ask ourselves the question. what happens if mccarthy and those folk blink with regard to these 20? what do they then allow? what else gets released into the political bloodstream in this moment? so we need to read this i think as -- because january 6th the anniversary is coming up on friday. so we need to understand its

relationship, and then we need to understand the cost of conceding to these 20 and conceding to the dysfunction altogether. and so it's a dangerous moment, period. >> all right, no one is going anywhere today. when we come back the split screen moment of the day. while kevin mccarthy continues to bleed support within his own political party, senate republican leader mitch mcconnell welcomed president joe biden to kentucky, both touting accomplishments and their pledge to maybe more. plus special counsel jack smith is now back in the united states of america picking up and leading the investigation into the insurrection where the january 6th committee left off. we'll discuss what we can expect from that probe. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. it has long-lasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. finally, a light scent that lasts all day. downy light!

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leader mcconnell and i don't agree on everything. in fact, we disagree on a lot of things. but here's what matters. he's a man of his word. when he gives his word you can take it to the bank and you can count on it and willing to get things down for the country. so thank you, mitch. thank you. that's exactly what we did in the bipartisan law which got done in no small part because of the leadership. we can work together. we can get things done. we can move the nation forward if we just drop a little bit of our egos and focus on what is needed in it country. >> we all know these are partisan times, but i always feel no matter who is elected once it's all over we ought to

look for things we can agree on and try to do those. >> president joe biden today with senate minority leader mitch mcconnell in a stark contrast to the partisan chaos -- intraparty chaos consuming the house of representatives. the two men appearing together in kentucky to highlight projects funded by president joe biden's infrastructure bill while the mayhem still rages and set to resume at 8:00 at the house of representatives. we're back with david plouffe, cornell belcher, and eddie glaud. i wanted to show this because i think it's important in a couple of ways. one, president joe biden's policyerize popular with a majority of americans even if his approval number on a day-to-day basis track with that. infrastructure bills are so popular, mitch mcconnell had him today had him to his state to talk about potholes, bridges, roads, broadband, all those

things. they're 60, 90% issues in most states and most districts. this seems like a quiet, unassuming strategy on the part of the biden white house. >> well, maybe for outsiders. but for us political hacks i speak for dowd and david plouffe. >> you call me a hack, too. >> but it's not that quiet, and anyone who's thinking this is man who's not going to run for re-election must set the record clear today. what was to me almost as more interesting about mitch mcconnell there was senator brown, right, in ohio, a battleground state and a tough battleground state for us. you know, talking about infrastructure and being bipartisan. you know who has to show bipartisan accomplishments? senator brown, who, by the way,

has a lot of that to show and why he continues to win in a red state. and also notice that the vice president was also in illinois today talking about the benefits of this bipartisan infrastructure bill, and over the next couple of months all across this country you're going to see the funding and the money begin to be really spent in all these communities all across america. and that's going to have an impact on people. i think at some point when the presidents -- i separate the president's job approval from the metrics of what's actually happening in the country because when you -- i'm not trying to break any news. the white house knows this. even among his base voters i mean especially young voters, they're real concerned or real questions about the president's

age. and there's not questions about the president's policy, ideology, his values, about whether or not he can actually get the job done, he has the stamina to get the job done. i think he's going across the country and talking about bipartisan legislation that's actually working for the people. i think he's taking -- you know, he's hitting both of those marks, and i think anyone thinking about him and the vice president aren't running for re-election, take a look where they're going to be traveling the next couple of weeks. >> i agree with that. i also think presidential approval is over. i think the structure of our politics makes it impossible for anyone outside of crisis to be about some of those i think new ceilings. david plouffe, i want your statements about the choice today. it was sort of the norm for the

trump years, but infrastructure is so popular with all americans that it was the one policy donald trump actually tried and failed to pass. >> nicole, i think mcconnell is -- you can just tell he's proud of the accomplishment, thought it was needed. i think cornell makes a really important point. it's also no small thing that mcconnell was there who's probably going to turn this event into his first advertisements of his 2024 re-election. by the way, i don't know joe biden is home. that is his living room. he's in front of a group of bipartisan officials in front of a steel bridge. that is home base for joe biden. i think to cornell's point i think we'll see that picture maybe not quite as dramatic as that today repeated all over the country. i was in the white house i think in '11 and '12, we had mitch

mcconnell on the stage of course john boehner the speaker. so it's the same setup, democrat white house, democratic senate. even though mcconnell was the leader on the republican side and republican house. and the trouble we almost crashed into the debt limit, government a couple times had a hard time functioning. that was a different house republican conference. they tended it believe in democracy, there were more institutionalists. it's scary when you think about ten years later where we are with that same setup with this house republican group and whoever comes out the other side. so but i think that dits function -- so i think what's interesting is obviously the senate map is difficult for democrats. you have the west virginia seat joe manchin is in, you have tester and then you've got some other battleground seats. so it's a map that definitely advantages republicans, but i

don't think mcconnell wants to turn into the same target that house republicans are, that he wants them to be palatable to the american people. the other thing i point out is we just got done one election but this house map is very different than the last two decades where the house map benefitted republicans. democrats were able to use some land slides to win back control. this is going to bea very compet competative house map. they're not off to an auspicious start here. i think you're going to see joe biden -- i'm sure mcconnell is not going to join him elsewhere, but you're going to see him all over the country in projects that theoretical. they're going to improve peoples lives. and i think that helps answer the question cornell raised which is voters rightfully saying is he up to the job at his age? in fact it's always easier to answer things with visuals than

words, and those are very powerful visions. >> eddie, these questions -- you can't be something with nothing. and every politician carries political liabilities along with them, all of us know that. i think that what the republicans have to -- i think "the wall street journal" editorial writers woke up to this morning. you can't take a case or make a case to the country -- and there are people out there who would like to vote for republicans. there are people out there who don't agree with democratic policies or principles. they don't oppose the infrastructure bill. i think that's an 83% issue last time i looked which is why mitch mcconnell was there. but there's no case being made -- there's no case to be made -- and let's give them the most favorable assumptions about how this ends. they have a speaker -- they figure it out and they have a speaker, they don't plan to hold hearings on economic equality. they don't plan to hold hearings on the cost of living, the cost

of rent, the cost of college, the cost of gas. they plan on investigating hunter biden. if they are able to break through the logjam over who's going to be the leader of their caucus 138 of them voted to overturn the results of the last election. it is an anti-democratic caucus top to bottom. the ones who believe in democracy are gone. so whatever happens they're going to start to investigate hunter biden. >> right, right. and so i think it's really important there's no kind of ideological agenda driving the republican party at least in the house. and what we see is that there's simply a kind of crude and crass effort to garner power. not power on behalf of the american people but power for themselves, and that's kind of crystallized in kevin mccarthy's ambition over the course of his career. quickly, nicole, going back to that image of president biden

and senator mcconnell and senator brown. i think it's really important because ordinary every day people have issues they have to address, the country, the infrastructure has to be addressed. but i think it's really important for joe biden not to lie. and that is to say to say that mitch mcconnell is a man of his word to those young voters who think he's too old, that becomes an indication that something's wrong because they know what happened with merrick garland. they know what happened to amy coney barrett. so he has to be very careful. tout the issues -- tout getting stuff done for the american people, but don't lie in the name of some ideal or bipartisanship. we have to deal with what we have on the table, not tell falsehoods. >> they're so onto every last one of us. they know everything. they go and suss things out. they don't trust anything, media, politicians, so really good point. i'm so blessed to have all of you on any day but especially a

day frankly as weird as it is today. my thanks to all of you. and a big shout out to ali vitally has been extraordinary as her colleague garret haake for us on capitol hill. now that the investigation into the insurrection is shoally in the hands of special counsel jack smith, we'll tell you what we can expect from the special counsel after a quick break. spl counsel after a quick break. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪

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throughout his career jack smith has built a reputation as an impartial and determined prosecutor who leads teams with energy and focus to follow the facts wherever they lead. as special counsel he will exercise independent prosecutorial judgment to decide whether charges should be brought. >> feels like a lifetime ago. that was about a month and a half ago. it was a moment when attorney general merrick garland announced the appointment and creation of a special counsel. smith formerly a kosovo war crimes prosecutors at the hague to lead a pair of highly sensitive investigations one into the mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago, the other centered on trying to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. when attorney general garland made that announcement jack smith was in europe and he stayed there because he was recovering from surgery following a bike accident. but as of today thanks to new

reporting in "the washington post," we understand he's now here in the u.s. with vital work ahead of him. joining us now adam wiseman, he's also thank goodness an msnbc legal analyst. andrew, i am going to get your thoughts on what's happening in washington because it affects everybody who comes from government and works in government. i want to start with obviously with covid remote work is a lot more efficient and productive, but what is the difference with a team of investigators on these two complex investigations into an ex-president and having him back in washington? >> i think in this type of case it's absolutely critical. there's a lot of reading you can do remotely, and that obviously is important especially with the mass of material the january 6th committee has turned over, that's something you can do while you're recuperating

abroad. but i think there are two things that require you to actually be present. one is i think there's going to be sort of an internal assessment of his team, in other words who are sort of the people he can really rely onto move things forward, and i think that's something we did in a special counsel investigation. it's just part of when you take over a case understanding who you're sort of courses are to move this along whether on the proscuratorial side or agency side. and second assessing their credibility or how they're going to come off to a jury is key. and that's something you cannot do remotely at least for the first time. you want to have some rapport and assess that person in person and not just over zoom or skype as we're doing right now. >> so, andrew, i was anchoring last week when the actual meat of the january 6th report and

all the transcripts and all the guts of their evidence came out, and it was so stunning, and it was so devastating to donald trump, and frankly all the people around him who were worried about the job prospects, who were completely aware not just of the illegality and potential criminality of what trump had done but what it looked like the world over. what was the reaction because you've been on that side to this trove of evidence from inside doj? >> i'll tell you my reaction was that there's going to be an enormous weight on jack to figure out triage. when you have a case with massive amounts of documents and many, many potential targets, you really have to make a decision where you want to go, who it's important to focus on and who it's not. you can't do everything at warp speed, and here speed matters,

time is of the essence, and you really have to do a smart call on what i call triage. and an example of that is tony arenado at the secret service. you don't really have to worry about him being a defense witness at this point given how much evidence there is contrary to what he said in terms of donald trump wanting to go up to the capitol. but you do have to make a decision about whether you want to charge him. one of the very unusual things, nicolle, about this case is unlike any case i've ever seen where there's a group of people who committed a crime is that we have not seen any charges related to either mar-a-lago or the group of people at the white house who are sort of not the people -- sort of what's called foot soldiers who were at the capitol that day.

that's extremely unusual. and if you're jack smith one of the things you need to do with that huge massive evidence is figure out are there any sort of lower level people you want to charge in an effort to get them to flip and fully cooperate? that i think is going to be sort of, you know, job number one is that, which is something we really haven't seen, and i think will be a sign of real progress if we do see it. >> and the parallel for muller would have been charging manafort and papadopoulos and gaetz and that was how your team moved up the food chain. >> yeah, exactly. it is just extremely rare whether we're talking about an organized crime case, a political corruption case, any sort of gang case, it was chairing the special counsel investigation, that you figure out who are the people you can bring charges to get them to

flip. sometimes as you point out some people don't flip or say they're flipping but don't. manafort is an example of that. weisselberg is an example of that in the manhattan d.a.'s office. but that doesn't mean you don't try. you're going to be seeing jack smith looking through the morass of evidence compiled by his team and the january 6th committee to see are their charges of obstruction or false statements or more serious charges that will cause people to flip. with the goal of people like eastman, obviously mark meadows would be sort of almost a white whale other than obviously donald trump himself, but you want to move up that ladder to see what kind of cases you can bring. the area where i think it's less

necessary is in the case of mar-a-lago where you could see lower level people being charged and flipped, but there the case is so straightforward and appears to be so strong that you could imagine it in that situation just seeing an indictment of donald trump without that sort of interim step of moving up the ladder. on the january 6th investigation i'd be surprised if there wasn't that step of trying to get people to flip on their way up. >> i know that i would love to sit with some of this evidence that came out in the black hole that was the holiday with you and go through some of and get your thoughts on what's happening in washington. keep your dance card free for us this week. when we come back we'll check back in on capitol hill in the behind the scenes negotiations as kevin mccarthy tries to find a way any way on try number

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the house of representatives stands adjourned right now after kevin mccarthy failed on the sixth consecutive ballot to win enough votes to become speaker of the house, a lifelong dream for kevin. the house will be back in session 2 hours and 8 minutes from now. they're working behind the scenes for a path forward. for a person best positioned to know what that entails is jake

sherman, the founder of bunch bowl news, an msnbc contributor and joins us right now. what do you think is happening? >> well, i kind of have an idea, nicole. the republican dissenters are in a meeting with the republican leadership. we have an amazing run-down on punch bowl news. >> i do. you can tell me. >> i know you do. no, listen so they are trying to make out a deal that would allow this process to go forward. here's the rub, nicolle, they can't even adjourn and stop voting without consent of the body, without consent of house republican leaders, without consent of house republicans and house democrats. it is a -- there are no rules right now, so they have to keep voting until they have a speaker which is why mccarthy is down six ballots.

no one in their mind would go through six ballots where you know they're going to lose them by choice. so do i think they're going to come to an agreement? i don't know. mccarthy has more ground to make up than he should be able to make up. that's obvious. he has to flip a lot of votes, but the two sides are talking. that is a good sign for mccarthy, but the larger problem will become if they come to a deal, can the rest of the republican conference win it. they want seats on prime committees, they want to boot out subcommittee chairs for these republican conservatives. a lot of people in the house republican conference say why are we giving these jerks anything. 10% of republicans are holding up the entire house from organizing because they don't like kevin mccarthy. as i said yesterday to you, nicole, this is personal. this isn't really a substantive issue for many of these people. they just don't want mccarthy to

be speaker. >> they're not into him. jake sherman, your reporting and my colleague up there you all have all been amazing. thank you so much. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k you so mu. a quick break for us we'll be right back. i'm down wi. my a1c is down with rybelsus®. in a clinical study, once-daily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill. in the same study, people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these perhaps too extraordinary of a time. we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. this is one of those times i want to take a minute or two overtime of your hardworking day. i've been watching your coverage. i did want to ask you one thing. i was thinking we turn to wisdom in