democrats and republicans. >> now, mcconnell, i, think does have a sense of what will get a majority. it's a decent sense, and it's better than, say, matt gates. that's probably a big worry for him. >> yeah. arguably, mcconnell is one of the only grown-ups left in the party. and he still occasionally adopts that posture. so yeah, it's clearly not good. there was an amazing contrast as we were looking at the chamber today, the house of representatives. i was reminded that it was only a few weeks ago that very room was witness to the speech by zelenskyy, and which all the dignity of the american congress is on full display, and now, we see it and so much disarray, it is quite a contrast. >> it really is. norm ornstein, mana, thank you both. that was wonderful. i really appreciate it. that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex.

>> good evening, chris. >> what a ride. >> i mean -- >> history, day three, we hadn't today three of history. >> they, as rebecca saying on friday, big british parliament energy without the intelligence and the phone. she did say that part, but i will. >> i do love british parliament energy. >> i -- >> i like the rockets this. i'm into it. >> there's something into the rockets in this, although this is just uncontrolled chaos. nobody is driving the bus. and here we are. thank you, as always. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. it is 9 pm on the east coast and there is still no house of representatives seated in the united states of america. today, republican leader kevin mccarthy lost three rounds voting for speaker, bringing his total number of failed votes to six. this evening, the house was set to hold a seventh vote for speaker of the house, but within the past hour, the house voted to adjourn and close up shop for the night and come back tomorrow.

when it drag this thing out another day? now, that vote to adjourn was on par with the rest of the chaos and confusion that is characterized this entire speaker the buckle. a majority of republicans voted to end the session and wait until tomorrow, while all democrats voted to keep the session going. since right now, neither party controls the house voting process, the whole vote turned into what might be politely called a goat rodeo. those yelling, running, arguments, cries of foul play. mostly from democrats, or the fact that several republicans were allowed to change their votes after the clock ran out. >> and this, at the age of 216. the nays are 214. accordingly -- the motion is adopted. accordingly, the house stands adjourned until noon, tomorrow. >> and the end, and to mccarthy republicans, the never kevin

caucus, sided with pro mccarthy republicans in voting to adjourn and keep negotiating behind closed doors. this is a sign that the two sides could be making progress toward a deal to elect a speaker. the spurs noting. if there is some sort of progress in this negotiation, it really remains to be seen how mr. mccarthy can overcome just the staggering embarrassment, the string of failed votes, public humiliations, not to mention the very strong opposition that remains and his party, and actually do the job that he so very desperately wants to. joining us now is democratic congressman -- new york 16 district congressman, thank you for making time. what a night. you are there. what just happened on the floor, and how should be read the voting that's workplace? >> well, first of all, welcome to my world. this is my second term, and this is how i'm beginning a

second term, which is actually better than the first time, which began with an insurrection. so i guess we're making progress. >> i guess. >> it's chaos. it's dysfunction, quite honestly, it's a clown show. this is something we warned the american people about going into the general election. they don't care about government. they don't care about leadership. they're not accepting of our country evolving into the multi racial, multi cultural democracy that we are. the republican party has become the party of lies, of trump, of qanon, maga, and white supremacy. and i say become, it's just becoming more public that this is who they are. they're being hijacked right now by the freedom caucus, which was a traditional, quote unquote, nativist approach to governing, which is white, patriarchal, hegemonic supremacy with women and lgbtq

people and people of color and everyone under their thumb, with a continuation of the economic inequality that we see. this is who they are. we have to accept them for who they are. we have to make sure we vote their butts out of office in 2024. >> i'm not one quote jeb bush, but he did called trump the chaos candidate. and in many ways, trump ushered in this new era of chaos, and we're seeing borne out acutely on the floor of the house of representatives today. but the fact of the matter is, we don't have a house of representatives. and some things gotta change. is it your sense that we are getting closer to a deal? folks are reading something into the fact that some of the never kevin caucus has joined with the pro kevin caucus and the vote to adjourn. i know that seems like making a mountain out of a molehill, but a lot of votes in the house are symbolic. do you see that is a sign that the two sides maybe getting closer to a deal here on who can lead their caucus? >> so, that's a very good

point. i came to washington as an optimistic person, but i'm becoming more pessimistic by the day. and one hand, that can be a sign of progress, where the two sides are coming to a point where they're going to support a speaker. but that speaker may not be kevin mccarthy. and now, we're hearing steve scalise see, we're hearing other things. so mccarthy, it looks like, still has an uphill battle, and may have to step aside. you may have to make way for someone else to be speaker. again, this is, you, know this is the reason why when i walk through my district, and i go into communities that have been historically marginalized and left out of the process, this is why they say congress is corrupt. congress doesn't function. y'all don't do anything for us. we're supposed to be figuring out a way to deal with the issue of inflation, to provide universal child care for people,

to make sure everyone has a prevailing wage in the job, affordable housing, all of the aspects of the american dream that people are left away from. we're supposed to be figuring out and do this. instead, or wasting days and choosing a speaker, where they had months to negotiate where we should be at this time. so it's embarrassing to kevin mccarthy. i don't know how he comes back from this, but it's embarrassing to the republican party. are you kidding me? >> now, to achieve those calls, congress has to function. and i wonder, from a democratic point of view, in terms of working with someone else from the republican party who is gonna be a leader, you might in some world able to negotiate with democrats, would you rather see kevin mccarthy or steve scalise holding the speakers gavel? steve scalise has more of a conservative but kevin mccarthy. and look, i'm not trying to paint kevin mccarthy is anything but a hard court conservative.

but steve scalise says to the right of him, nonetheless. with that be a loss for democrats if scalise is the man who ends up being speaker? >> steve scalise, apparently referred to himself as david duke without the baggage. so, now, we don't want steve scalise at all. but kevin mccarthy is not great either. this is why even last session, we really needed unity from the democratic party. because guess what. i want to bring this up again, if we had democratic unity in the senate, all of the things that i mentioned that were a part of build back better, historic investments in affordable housing, universal childcare, paid leave but only -- where the only dave up to country that doesn't happen. so last session, we would've had those things right now. and artificially as we can bus and put us in a position now where we have to deal with republican leadership. so whoever is in leadership, if they're serious about governing, they have to do it in

collaboration with us. democrats still have the senate, and we have the white house. so, are we gonna move the country forward to getting, away from trump and towards a vision of what we're capable of being? or are we gonna continue to play this circus theatrical came that's all about fundraising and corporate elites and all that around the country? we'll say we have we land. we know what the republicans wanted to. >> what's your over under on whether this ends tomorrow? >> over. i'm going way over. i don't think this ends tomorrow at all. i was having a congressman with congresswoman ocasio-cortez, and she thinks mccarthy's done. that was on the first vote today. now that i'm here standing with you, late at night, i'm thinking she may be right. i mean, he may be finished. i mean, how many more concessions it's gonna give? he's already given so much. and at that point, they're gonna have the freedom caucus

running the entire house and trying to run the country. freedom to do wet? freedom to oppress the american people. we can't have it. >> congressman jamal bowman from the great state of new york, thank you for joining us on this historic evening in a historic week. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> let's bring in washington post congressional reporter paul cain. all, it's good to see. thanks for being here tonight as we try to make sense of what exactly is happening to our house of representatives, where there are no representative seated. how do you read this? jamal bowman was talking pretty explicitly about kevin mccarthy being done. do you get the sense from your reporting, you know inside congress, that that may actually be something that's on the horizon? >> well, you know, alex, the fact that he is still standing after six very bad votes, and gives him some level of hope. you, know they had hoped earlier, you know, starting yesterday, that they would grow his vote, and that they would

shrink the number of opponents. and, really we've just hit a bit of complete static. we stop on 2021 who oppose him, and went to three runs today, and that's what you got each time. a lot of groundhog day jokes on twitter right now. same day, over and over again. but he is still standing. it's more important is his allies spent the past 24 hours really going around, talking to these opponents, not kevin mccarthy talking directly to them, because they'd reached a point where that just would've been counterproductive. so you had his allies talking to people about what they actually won, and tonight, they had some real meetings and real discussions, and now they're gonna need to keep doing that. can they get their? are they gonna start with more votes tomorrow? that we just seem to be really odd and counterproductive. but you know, he is still standing. it's a week and a wobbly. pick any one of your metaphor

as you want. it's about taking on water, a boxer in a corner. but he's still standing. which is kind of remarkable in and of itself. >> do you think, though, steve scalise, is reporting that his office was preparing for a potential event to eventually have to step in here if it came to that. it's what it feels like that time might be now. do you have any intel that scalise is, no, and once a measuring the drapes, because he would only do that with mccarthy's ascent. but so what degree is there a succession plan even in the works at the stage? >> there really isn't. everybody in scalise's world knows that his path to becoming the number one, path to becoming speaker, is by staying loyal as a number two. if he looks like he's out there trying to shove mccarthy off the back, then it will look very bad on him, and mccarthy's best friends want to be the

speaker. he'll end up in the same situation where he can't get 218 from his own side. so he's gonna play the loyal lieutenant. some people think he's not been outwardly publicly enough loyal, and speaking out for mccarthy, but he's not really doing anything. should the moment come where mccarthy bows out, yes, steve scalise wants to be the speaker. and there's probably one or two people who have a plan ready to go, a break glass plan, that would be put into place. but, right now, those plans are just sitting there on hold, trying to see if they can get mccarthy across the finish line. >> it's like game of thrones with super pacs. when we talk about the negotiations that are happening behind closed lords, i think a lot of people say, what is left to concede at this point? we've outlined some of the changes that the freedom caucus wants.

it sounds like mccarthy gave an early without asking much in return. we now know, based on some reporting from punchbowl, the congressional leadership fund and the club for growth, to republican super pacs, have come together in agreement that seems to be moving the ball forward and these behind the scenes negotiations. can you distill the essence of that agreement and what the impact will be on the party and the sort of conservative wing of the party that seeks to gain more power within the gop? >> sure. the rat said political allies of mccarthy who in recent campaign seasons would wade into republican primaries -- these are primaries and very safe, republican districts, and then we tried to throw a little bit of shade and support behind the more established, friendly republican, in the primary, to try to knock that person -- knock out the more sort of matt gates style republican out of

the primary. that became a big sticking point, and some of the freedom caucus people became very angry about that. it's very tricky legal terrain there. you really can't, as members of congress, tell independent super pacs what they can and can't do. i gotta be very tricky and how they word things. but by a green thumb not sort of go into those primaries, and the safe republican districts, they're trying to basically tell the freedom caucus types, look, we're gonna stay out of this, it'll be a fair fight, your candidates forcing our candidates, in these safe republican districts. and i think that might flip through a few votes mccarthy's way. >> so, just to be clear, the changes we're talking about, the agreements that are being hashed out by outside super pacs in terms of how to choose the speaker of the house, which on its face, seems like something that's not really legally supposed to happen, but nonetheless -- could make it easier for the andy biggs in the paul gosar

adds the marjorie taylor greene's of the world to gain entry into congress in terms of the primary process in the elections process. in addition to that change, we're talking about real changes that would allow committees to defund federal agencies, they would get the congressional ethics committee -- i mean, these are big changes, very controversial changes, and it sounds like, paul, correct me if i'm wrong, no matter how the -- to the speaker's, that person that's gonna have to agree that these changes that kevin mccarthy worked so the stuff is gonna happen, no matter who is ultimately chosen. is that right? >> i think it's gonna be really hard. you can get into a situation where kevin mccarthy bows out, and scalise, you, know becomes the de facto front runner. it's gonna be really hard for him to get 218 votes if you just says, oh no, i'm gonna tear up that agreement that you guys had with mccarthy. i think you have a situation where they are gonna say, these are our terms, and it's not

your fault that kevin agreed to these terms. but you've got to live by them if you want to get that gavel. so yeah, i think you're gonna look. the objective here in a lot of ways, what these freedom caucus types are doing, is trying to make the speaker position as weak as possible. they want to make that person not have much power. and that would make life easier for them. that's what they're really trying to accomplish here. >> we can the speakership and emboldened the uncertainty. that's what's happening here in america house of representatives. january whatever day it is, 2023. washington post congressional reporter paul cain, thank you for your time and your reporting tonight. >> thanks, alex. >> we have lots more to come tonight, including the latest on the house democrat strategy as the republican party fractures around them. plus, what all this chaos among congressional republicans means for the de facto leader of their party.

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country to have a congress that can't function. i just embarrassing. are the greatest nation in the world. how can that be? >> embarrassment. that's been the takeaway for many democrats watching the ongoing debacle the house

floor. democrats are the minority party in the house, they're also the only party that seems ready to govern. this makes republicans inability to pick a speaker particularly calling. again today, the 118 congress voted multiple times to elect the speaker of the house. again, today, they failed. the republican house majority couldn't get kevin mccarthy 218 votes he needs to become the next speaker. with only 201 members of his conference casting votes for him. one member voted president, and to endorse voted for republican congressman from florida, byron donalds. the word embarrassing seems appropriate. on the other hand, on the other hand, this was the view on the other side of the aisle for the last 24 hours. the six times the chair of the democratic caucus nominated akeem jeffries for speaker. every single time, all 212 house democrats voted for jeffries with not one of them wavering or defecting.

despite that show of unity, and a half the amount of political capital that gives leader jeffries, the country still has no members of congress right now. not one has been sworn in. no one has been seated. so for the unified democrats in the house, what's the endgame? how they work around the dysfunction of the house republicans so that the 118 congress is seated and ready to actually govern? joining us now is claire mccaskill, former u.s. senator from missouri, and an msnbc analyst. clare, wow. thank you for being here tonight. this is really -- what is the of where that you have to describe what is happening here in congress? >> well, it's a chaotic clown show of incompetence. it is, in full view of the american people. keep in mind, alex, that what happened over the dinner break that makes mccarthy think he still has a chance, is there

was a deal cut in the backroom about money. >> yeah. >> i mean, the american people need to understand that. they went in the background, and on even sure if it was done legally, and decided that kevin mccarthy's pack would make an oath to never oppose a sitting member of congress no matter how crazy they are. and so, in his -- and that's about money. let's just about money. so if people think these guys are trying to clean the swamp, and why is this progress toward the speakership all about a backroom deal over money? and it's beyond embarrassing. embarrassing doesn't even cover it. but the only victory the new majority has had in the first two days of power is they managed by two votes to adjourn. >> yeah. >> that is about as bad as it gets. that's worse than the high school student council meetings

when we're arguing about chilies suffers. i, mean it's embarrassing. >> i think another word might be pathetic as well. but that's the big accomplishment. not being able to see the congress, just being able to agree to go home. how should democrats be thinking about this moment? because certainly, it's been the short term gratification of watching the chickens come home to roost. right? a lot of people look at this and say, this is the party the gop has been building for decades. congratulations, this is your price. on the other hand, it is the long term reality in the medium term reality that this is the government we have. if democrats want to get anything done, you have to find a way to work with a party that has no center. that has no moral, ethical governing platform, and no leadership. so, if you are instill in congress, how would you be thinking about your governing strategy going forward? >> well, first, the senate is gonna be very productive. secondly, if the house isn't,

then the house needs to keep doing what they've done so brilliantly the last two days. that, is patch of the differences you have, and you celebrate the vast majority of things that you believe in and agree on. and that's what they need to keep them. because the other side is all about haiti political posturing and trying to be important, and get on some bogus prudent crop propaganda news show. now, it's really a stark contrast right now. i think they need to just keep doing what they've been doing. messaging cleanly about what they want to get them. by the bills they passed in the senate, and the challenges they make for the republican party, i don't know how this ends. i frankly don't see a way for mccarthy -- we've got five members who have said their hard nose forever. well, he can't be speaker if those five hard nose forever. so, you know, that means it's gonna be somewhere else, i

guess. there's an outside chance of some kind of coalition. with the democrats, i think it's more likely. we'll reach down into the membership and find someone who is more appealable to the freedom caucus, but it's not part of the current leadership, so they can avoid the argument that these wackos are making about, they don't want the status quo. >> i wonder if you do have some unknown, relatively fresh face reading the republican majority in the house. whether that kind of we can't holding the gavel affords a greater opportunity for moderate republicans to peel away and joins them regrets on precisely that legislation that you talk about that has widespread popular support. that could play well in sling districts. is there an opportunity here for the week speaker to actually maybe get things done, or am i being overly optimistic? >> i don't think so. because everybody has to remember, unlike the senate, house members won every two years. if you're in a swing district in the house, that means are constantly campaigning and

constantly worried about the next election. so if you're republican from a biden district, you'll be looking for those moments where you can vote for something like infrastructure, like a bill that's widely supported by most americans, to break away from what now has become clearly the party that's been hijacked by the extremes. i, mean a lot of those republicans barely held on this time, and a lot of the dark rats that are in more republican districts ended up succeeding when no one thought they would. i think the democratic party was pretty forgiving for some of those folks to have to break away every once in a while. i don't know how forgiving the republican party would be for moderate members who feel the need to break away every once in a while. but when surprise me to see it. >> speaking of surprises, have you been at all surprised at the rock ribbed unity among democrats in the house? we played that six box of

regular not minute jeffries for speaker of the house six times, i'm getting unanimous votes for the caucus. as that mina surprised here? >> it really hasn't. i mean, if you look at the table that was set by nancy pelosi, and even in the senate, and it's easy to get upset about the filibuster and get very upset about some of the more progressive values we hold that we wanted to get across the finish line, particularly things like ratifying roe v. wade, and making sure elections are safe and secure. on the other hand, we've got a lot done, with bare majorities in the last two years. we've got a whole list of things that are very important to americans. so that was really because our leaders were principled, and kept everybody together on those issues that there was wide agreement. the democrats did very well because of it. i think they will continue to do that, particularly in the

senate, and set that table. and i think they're gonna stay unified in the house, because they now see in full display what happens if you don't manage to stay unified. >> what a study in contrasts. claire mccaskill, one of my absolute favorite people to talk with period, but especially in moments like this, from a u.s. senator from the great state of missouri, thank you for your time, clara, as always. >> you bet, alex. >> we have a lot more to get to tonight. president biden showcases what happens when government actually get stuff done. wow, look at that. as that is happening, trump is trying to get house republicans to, quote, close the deal for kevin mccarthy. what all this chaos means for trump and the maga movement. it's coming up next.

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donald trump was about to sit this one out. he had endorsed congressman kevin mccarthy for house speaker back in december, but after three losing votes on tuesday, trump started to sound like a guy with a cold feet. he told nbc news last night, quote, i've got everybody calling wanting my support. that's all i can say. but we'll see what happens. we'll see how it all works out. sometime between trump's kevin who? i've got everybody calling me, and sunrise this morning, get a

change of heart. he released this a few sieve post on truth social. some said that some, quote, really good conversations took place, and it was time to vote for cabin, close the deal, take the victory. three consecutive failed votes this afternoon have now shown that trump's plea to, quote, close the deal, has fallen on deaf ears. one of the house members leading the opposition to mccarthy, congressman lauren boebert of colorado, made it quite clear that whatever sway trump thought he had, it wasn't doing much of anything. >> let's stop with the campaign smears and tactics to get people to turn against it. even having my favorite president -- the president needs to tell -- time to withdraw. they have, that members of the maga room and that went on

ideology that trump himself perfected have decided he's a non factor in the republican party that trump fashion that is on image, as they hold the house hostage. joining us now is charlie sykes, editor at large of the bulwark. charlie, thanks for being here tonight. i know you have a lot of thoughts on this topic. storms power within the party, and we finally seeing some here in terms of the honest to goodness diminishment of a man who so desperately wants to be king of the gop? >> i think we are seeing something. and again, i always question against which casting out and through -- you often, little bit of ptsd. there's no question about it that donald trump is a german medically diminished figure. he's not irrelevant. but his power is limited. -- apparently powerless to save him. that's what made the scene you just played so extraordinary.

he put out the statement, and managed to move not a single vote. -- hard-core loyalist, -- because of donald trump had to say. many of them have figured out a way to deflect that is just to get them with the usual flattery, say mister president, you want to be speaker, not kevin. and -- we'll see what happens tomorrow. it's possible that kevin mccarthy might pull this out. what i think is obvious is that if he pulls it out, it won't be because donald trump has the clout that he used to have. again, it's important to realize he's not irrelevant. you can destroy, but he can't save come on mccarthy. this is really interesting, to see the way and which is power has sort of leached away.

he's been unable to clear the field after he announced his presidential campaign. he's not driven out any other candidate. you have mitch mcconnell, who's basically flipping him off by appearing with joe biden today. last week, he railed against those out on the 1.7 trillion dollar omnibus bill, and senate republicans just completely ignored him. so, we're in a new world in which a lot of republicans think that it is completely safe to ignore him, and here, lauren boebert explaining why she was blowing him off on the floor of the house. it is really quite an inflection point, i thought. >> yeah. i'm getting strong old man sitting on his front porch lay yelling at passersby energy from trump slate of mrs.'s. but it does bring -- is still the unanswered question of, where does the center of gravity in the gop lie? i think this is worth revisiting. he made a point earlier today. here's a quick overview of the

devolution of the republican party. eric kanter was defeated in the primary. paul ryan flame that under trump. and kevin mccarthy just became the first party leaders to lose a floor vote for speaker and 100 years. these guys were once the party's future. now, they're just footnotes in world kill. this also suggests that the problem isn't just kevin mccarthy and his burn it all down critics. it's systemic. what are the implications for the broader gop here? they have trump, it's a nihilists, beyond guns, we're supposed to be, you, now they're all wearing matching white button downs and ready to lead us into a brave conservative future. the road kill now. who's left? what does it look like to lead this party? >> okay. i'm glad you asked me this. i think it's a fundamental error to think that what you're seeing here is a group of crazies, versus the normies. or a group of insurgents who are, you know, waging war against the republican establishment. there's no republican

establishment. there's no enormous. keep in mind that it can mccarthy become speaker, or someone else like him, they'll be empowering marjorie taylor greene. they'll be riding the coattails of dozens of election deniers. the rely on the fight of people like george santos. look, whatever happens here, and i'm not saying that it's relevant, but whoever becomes speaker is gonna preside over the past that has been building for years. here she will be the mayor of crazy town. and this has republican caucus will continue the way again. i think as you watch what's happening right now, and maybe i'm using an entertaining. it's also gonna be dangerous. what you're seeing in their inability to get even the most basic things don will play out on issue after issue, including raising the debt ceiling,

engaging in the basic business of governments. so to your larger point, this is not just about kevin mccarthy. this is about a party that has been just overwhelmed but the kinds of people who've been enabled -- people like donald trump who are much more concerned about getting clicks, being able to go on social media, get love from tucker carlson, and feed that perpetual outrage machine here. and as kevin mccarthy and whoever else might be speaker continues to make concession after concession, what they're doing is they're continuing to empower exactly the kinds of grifters and extremists and crazies that have brought us to this particular moment. so however bad it is right now, it's gonna get worse. >> i just of optimism.

they know what, to all shea. dan crenshaw said, what about them as more conservatives? we have the same effing scores as we do. he's one of the pro kevin guys. charlie, editor at large for the bulwark, thanks for your web storm, charlie, thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> when we come back, what president biden is making the nest right now in congress. stay with us. stay with us could be a sign that your digestive system isn't at its best. but a little metamucil everyday can help. metamucil's psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down and also helps lower cholesterol and slows sugar absorption to promote healthy blood sugar levels. so you can feel lighter and more energetic. ♪ ♪ trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪

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mcconnell visited the closed bridge and kentucky, he said that roads and bridges are not partisan in washington. that's great! mr. mcconnell, help us rebuild this bridge! [crowd chanting] >> that's present about more than that did i go urging congress to build and fix the bridge, there was between ohio and kentucky. it was built in the 1960s to support about 80,000 cars crossing it a day. today the average is more than 180,000 cars a day, an estimated 3% of our country's entire gdp crosses at that bridge every year! for more than 20 years, now expanded the capacity of this bridge has been a top priority of local leaders all the way up to presidents, but they haven't gotten it done. and given how desperate is one of the major economic arteries for republican senate leader mitch mcconnell state, this bridge has always been a symbol

of not just literal gridlock but a partisan gridlock in washington. that is until today. this is president biden this afternoon with republican senate leader mitch mcconnell of kentucky, democratic senator from ohio sherrod brown, former republican senator rob portman of ohio, republican governor mike white of ohio, democratic governor andy beshear of kentucky. they are celebrating the massive 1.6 billion dollars in federal funding, this occurred to finally expand that bridge as part of the bipartisan infrastructure law passed in 2021. now that would be sort of an amazing bipartisan fee to celebrate any day, but it is an especially sharp contrast to what we are seeing play out in congress right now, where after two days and six rounds of voting, republicans have yet to elect someone to lead their majority. joining us now is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. thank you for being with us! >> oh, thank you. >> as we look at the study in contrast, between mitch mcconnell -- and listen, kevin mccarthy did

not get the margin he wanted in terms of majority in the house, right? a lot of people are mad about that. mitch mcconnell actually lost -- >> loss, yeah. >> gave democrats an extra seat. but his leadership election was a pro form exercise for all intensive purposes. >> well, i think people -- nobody fears kevin mccarthy, people fear mitch mcconnell. just this done today, you would imagine that there's so many republicans who could not get away with shaking joe biden's hand on the day of massive republican chaos. i remember who it was, but there was someone during the obama years who basically lost -- oasis chris christie, -- >> yes, yes! >> predicting obama's hands. for hugging him after -- >> after a massive hurricane, that the short parts of the state. >> right! so i may be reading too much into this, but it does seem to be sort of mcconnell, like flouting his defiant of the rapid fraction that is able to

make so many other republicans kind of dance to their tail. >> well -- it's shaming kevin mccarthy, and away, right? i mean you can't get -- it's a victory with a vote to get to go to dinner. and they are all in a line! [laughter] let's talk about mick kevin mccarthy in a miserable job that he has done in terms of managing his caucus. you manage titled the best piece in american press today. leopards each kevin mccarthy's face [laughter] and we have, it yeah! okay so that goes to the twitter meme, i never -- they are proving to the country that they are just obstructionists speaking of the house caucus. i never thought that it was the embodiment of the twitter mean -- i never thought elaborate would eat my face, sobs a woman who voted for the leopards eating people's faces party. i mean this was what they were always going to do, was enough? >> exactly! not just what they were going to always do. with the people who careers kevin mccarthy has nurtured since, you know, since the obama years, we're always going to do. right? kevin mccarthy about all of these tea party tea party

candidates into congress. he nurtured this spirit of obstructionist nihilism. he nurtured trumpism. just his wagon. imagine being a grown adult who doesn't feel completely degraded and a mask related by the nickname, my kevin. right? who kind of embraces that. it is astonishing this groveling, this weakness. it's a weakness that i think everybody, no matter what the ideological position senses, right? like these kind of 20 crazy people are not wrong to think that kevin mccarthy has no backbone or principles. >> this is a man whose life was threatened on january six, making urgent calls to the president saying, effectively, i'm really worried that i'm going to get killed. i'm very scared, and the president effectively saying, i guess the people who are trying to kill you just care more about a fraudulent election than you do, kevin. really, basically saying that you can die.

>> right. >> and then weeks later, kevin mccarthy is the one that goes to kiss the ring down at mar-a-lago. >> right! this is kind of what he -- >> he show the world that! >> he -- what he did was kind of show the far-right that they are -- that is one of them. what he's really showed them is that they can push them around without consequences. >> you make the point that, you know, and you bring up the great reporting from robert draper -- this is his management style has also exacerbated this. mccarthy's more entrepreneurial approach to politics. this is what jaipur is reporting big, to seize upon a trend, in this case government phobia, put your money on it and then worked hard to make the tried last. he got involved with this anti government zealotry because it was politically convenient, it was a brand that he thought he could get behind. and it has turned around and effectively destroyed the thing that he wants most in the world. >> i mean, i just feel that it's very, we're not just in

politics, but in any store that i can think of to see karma play out so neatly, right? this is jess -- just cosmic justice! as kind of grim as it might be for the country to see a man deal with a double, blow up in a space so spectacularly. >> stranger that he made so many can successive with this group of people, that apparently literally asking nothing in return. >> right, that's exactly what puts the republican party in such a bound spot even if he steps aside because those concessions cannot be done or backed if they get another candidate. but it's also -- the concessions, all the kind of done it reinforced the perception of his weakness and lead this click to kind of move the goalposts. >> and he is so soiled the office with these concessions that it makes -- it >> it's almost a weak link, or like a workplace job at this point. >> gavel.

>> he's already showed that he can't lead. he's already show that he can be defenestrated at any moment. so a, he can't make good on behalf of the caucus. but he also just can't govern. >> oh! kevin mccarthy. and the saga continues! michelle goldberg, columnist for the new york times, always good to see you! thanks very thompson. i >> always! >> we'll be right back! ght back

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we'll see again tomorrow and

now it's time for the last word