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hi everyone, it's 4:00 in new york as we come on the air, we are following breaking news. at this hour, one of the disgraced twice impeached ex-president's closest advisers, allen weisselberg is on route to the notorious rikers island. if he hasn't arrived already. he's been sentenced to five months behind bars for executing a tax scheme. he had been facing up to 15 years in prison but struck a deal with prosecutors pleading

guilty to 15 felony counts including tax fraud, conspiracy and grand larceny, and agreeing to testify against the trump org, though notably not against the big boss, donald hymn or any of his family. weisselberg who is 75 years old has been with the trump org for 50 years. technically he was the chief financial officer, but cfo doesn't capture how central he is to the trump org and the shady transactions or how complicit he was in the dirty dealings of the ex-president. nobody knows that better than michael cohen who had and has and has shared the receipts to prove it. there was of course the southern district of new york's charging document against michael cohen that was riddled with references to this mysterious figure, executive one, at the heart of an elaborate scheme to pay hush

money to stormy daniels and reimburse michael cohen. executive one was alan weisselberg. there would have been no stormy daniels hush money scheme without allen weisselberg. >> in the office with me was allen weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the trump organization. he acknowledged that he was going to pay the 130 how, and that he and i should go back to his office and figure out how to do it. the bottom signature, i believe, is allen weisselberg. >> can you suggest who we should talk to for additional information? david becker, barry howard,

allen weisselberg. >> can anyone corroborate what you have shared with us? >> absolutely. >> and that is? >> keith davidson, allen weisselberg, president trump. >> i just want the american public to understand the explosive nature of your testimony on this document. are you telling us, mr. cohen, that the president directed transactions in conspiracy with allen weisselberg and his son, donald trump jr., as part of a criminal experience of financial fraud, is that your testimony today? >> yes! wait, there is more because allen weisselberg was his wing man, inflating and deflating taxes, multiple criminal and civil investigations, including and especially that sweeping

220-page lawsuit brought by new york state ag tish james against the trump org, against donald trump and also his three eldest children. weisselberg's name is all over that lawsuit as well. and weisselberg was nothing if not prolific. he pads his title with a new job description, inmate. that's where we begin today. nbc news investigations correspondent, tom winter, outside of the courthouse for us today, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney at the university of -- now a professor at the university of alabama and msnbc legal analyst, and with me at the table, michael cohen, host of the mayakoba podcast, how donald trump weaponized the u.s. department of justice against his critics. take me through the news and through the day and some of the extraordinary detail and color

you have reported throughout the day. >> sure. so really there was a lot packed into a 20-minute sentencing hearing. after we were scheduled to start. being handcuffed with his right hand, then his left. at 2:36 p.m., he was taken out of the court after judge wished him well and directed officers to take him into custody. he was dressed as you may have seen earlier at the top of the show in what i would describe as a hunter green north face fleece jack, an untucked white t-shirt and jeans. his attorney apologizing for his appearance but saying effectively he knows that he's going to be going to jail today and that's why he was dressed in the manner in which he was dressed. back to the judge who said, look, i made a promise to you, back when you pleaded guilty in august that based on your service in the u.s. military and based on the fact that you taught public schools that i

would take what the prosecutors had recommended, which is six months in exchange for your guilty plea and promise of cooperation and knock it down to five months in jail. he says, but based on the evidence that he heard during the course of the trial, he said he found it offensive, that was his world, offensive that allen weisselberg arranged for a payment to his wife purely for the purposes that she could receive a social security benefit, not doing real work for the company at all. look, at a time when so many americans are working so harold to eventually be able to get those social security benefits, he found it very troubling and says he would have gone beyond what he had promised him if he wanted to break that promise. the representative for allen weisselberg provided more detail to something we heard during trial. effectively weisselberg met with trump's attorney, in this case,

on several occasions, prior to his three days of testimony. he did say he was only asked questions, he was not directed to answer questions in any particular way and said he met three times with the manhattan district attorney's office. same thing there. he says he was asked questions. he wasn't directed to answer any specific questions in a specific way. all told, weisselberg really didn't speak much here. he was given the opportunity to do so, and he says his attorney spoke on his behalf and he agreed with sentiments in request for further reduction or some of the sentence to be served on home confinement. the judge didn't go along with that, as i mentioned. allen weisselberg will go to a jail called notorious, a number of problems with it, to serve out his sentence. probably about a hundred days or so. they anticipate him getting out of jail in april. you get time off for good behavior. it's 8.1 miles from here. about 40 minutes in traffic.

surely we'll take longer if he hasn't left yet. but that's what we anticipate. so for allen weisselberg, this marks the end of his criminal case. this marks the end of the criminal case involving the trump organization. it does not mark the end of the investigation, saying several times on msnbc over the past several weeks, that investigation remains ongoing. we haven't seen any overt signs of any additional steps. be curious to hear if michael has been contacted by the da's office in the past several months. we haven't heard of any sort of new steps, new investigative activity, anybody getting a subpoena. anybody appearing before the grand jury here at state court in manhattan where it meets behind me. we don't know yet whether or not there are any new avenues of that investigation, and that's not something us or anybody else have reported on. the d.a. says the investigation remains ongoing. that's where we stand here today, an important end of this chapter, something we've talked

about over the past several years in a case that started with not one, but two fights of the supreme court to get the former president's taxes and now his top money man. as you said, somebody who's central to his business, the trump organization, of finding himself in handcuffs on his way to jail. >> i'm going to ask a good question. i have one follow up for you first. did this judge accept allen weisselberg taking responsibility for the determination to pay himself and his grandchildren's tuition and pay himself in the form of leased cars, himself in the form of a rented apartment, did they believe him that that was all his idea? >> right. right. exactly, and that's what i thought you were asking me. i think what the judge here and the jury say, it was really more up to the jury.

the jury did seem to come to the conclusion that it wasn't just allen weisselberg in the middle of the night, going into a computer data base in trump tower, and squeezing out his schools for the grandchildren or to get that mercedes bend. i think what the prosecution presented, what the jury found here was most important is allen weisselberg, the colead prosecutor on this case mentioned it, that the jury did find that he was in that high managerial capacity. that's something you and i talked about when this trial first began. was he a principle, and was he somebody who was doing this on behalf of the corporation, not only that, but huffinger pointed out this was of benefit to the trump organization. that was a key component as well, that effectively the jury finding, the judge agreeing and the prosecutors also agreeing because they presented this case that there was a real benefit to the trump organization.

they didn't have to gross up that salary. they didn't have to pay more in salary to cover the benefits that they were conveying to allen weisselberg and others in the trump organization. >> thank you very much for your excellent reporting on this, for being there for all of us all day and for your great place to start off with michael cohen. thank you. to tom winter's question, have you had recent contact with brag. >> i suspect i will be meeting with them in relatively short order. more than that, i don't want to discuss. i have not personally be subpoenaed, nor have i personally spoken with them. i do believe based upon alvin brag's recently statements that i will be meeting with them very soon. >> and that is about the cases that are outstanding, the cases that have not been brought. >> i don't know. again, i haven't spoken with them in order to be able to answer, you know, you appropriately.

>> what was this about. i guess what i'm getting at is no -- i mean, i can't imagine, you tell me, was it allen weisselberg's idea to pay himself in tuition for his grandchildren and rental cars from trump. >> remember, allen is not the only one that received these sort of benefits. other executives received similar benefits as well. allen weisselberg was as close to being ceo as anybody else that was there. more so even than the children. when donald ended up moving to d.c. and they put the trump org allegedly in trust, one of the issue was who's going to sign every single check. the answer was clear, everybody knew who was going to be in advance. that was allen weisselberg, the trustee of the trust. he had been with donald, for decades. >> and his father before that, yes. >> allen is not a cpa, allen was a bookkeeper, who ultimately

rose to the position quickly of cfo because he did for donald what donald wanted. anyone, i'll give you an example. weisselberg made a comment that he told the jurors he be trayed the trump family's trust by conspireing with a subordinate to hire decades, luxury cars, in his grandchildren's private school tuition. let me be clear, the apartment his son was living in is owned by donald and that the vehicles that were leased were leased off of the trump account. as well as the trump tuition, the children's tuition that was paid for from the trump organization. so the nonsense -- >> and whose idea was it to compensate executives with those benefits? >> it may have been allen's, it may have been donald's, it may have been somebody else's. the point is it doesn't matter whose idea it was.

they were all involved in this scheme. >> including trump. >> correct. whose decision it is to go rob the bank is irrelevant from the guy who's behind the steering wheel to the guy inside the bank. it's all part of the scheme and donald was involved from inception to execution. weisselberg on his way to rikers? >> i don't know. he's 75 year old. i would prefer him not to be in rikers island. he gave his word and lived up to it, despite that he was not telling the truth, he fell on the sword. >> what's the answer to the why? what are they hiding for trump, and why? >> it's money. who paid the $2 million that allen owed back to the government. whether or not allen received the half a million dollar bonus

that he routinely got for christmas, and what else is, the worst thing you can do is have somebody who is as close to donald as i was. more so allen weisselberg being in opposition the way i am. >> they learned through their experience with you, not to cut them off, to continue to pay him, and do you think some of his -- he thinks he's covering for trump. >> i think the jury believed he wasn't being forthright either, neither did the judge. none the less, five months turning into 100 days. i did half that amount in solitary confinement. i certainly, for a 75-year-old man, rikers is no place for him.

when you look to see who really should be the one that's incarcerated and i don't think that it should have been allen. i think allen should have been more forthright and should have given up the goods on donald and the rest of the family. >> tell me what's going through your mind when you're working for trump doing things that you know are illegal. >> you're not going to get caught. that's really what it's all about. donald expects you to do what he wants you to do. this notion that allen came up with this, he may have heard about it and presented it to donald, but it was ultimately donald's decision and no one else's. they then i'm sure spoke to the accountants and said, look, this is legitimate, you don't have to do it. there are companies that give perks, you know, to their employees. how they end up putting it on the tax returns, i don't know. i've never seen those tax returns. at the end of the day, it's always about not complying with

the rules and not worrying about the repercussions because there's a belief that there will never be repercussions. >> if you're donald trump, that's the truth. >> so far. >> if you think you catch up. >> i think it's now just the beginning. the thing we have to be cautious of is what's going on in washington now. for example, the hill just put out a report that the gop's weaponization panel that's being looked at is going to have the power to review those individuals that are probing trump, and this is very dangerous. if you look at my book "revenge." >> i thought about your book. >> look at the cover, how donald trump weaponized the department of justice against his critics. >> now his house allies have picked up the mission. >> why? it's about deflection. they know what they were doing to people like me and others, james comey, andrew mccabe, with

the irs. they're now deflecting, they're going to turn it on the democrats as opposed to allowing the democrats to continue probing the weaponization of the justice department, which donald trump taught people, and that's what i talk about in revenge. how did donald trump figure out ho weapon national security adviser -- weaponize the justice department against critics. >> do you expect to meet with them in the coming days or weeks because there are more cases they would like to bring? >> i don't know if he's satisfied or not. i know if i was the district attorney, i wouldn't be satisfied with this result. again, it's a 75-year-old man, a bookkeeper so to speak, the cfo. whether you like donald or dislike donald, the guy's going to do 100 days in rikers, it's

no picnic. what did they get, $2 million out of him? they're going to get $1.6 million out of the trump organization next week on the sentencing, on, what, 17 counts of violation. 1.6 from the trump organization? he'll put out one tweet and double that money. >> let me bring you in on this. it would appear that alvin bragg has gone the way of the current leadership of doj, prosecuting and sentencing the foot soldiers in trump's criminal conspiracies. but stopping short of going for the head of the fish. what do you make of allen weisselberg being on the way to rikers? >> a sentence of five months given his involvement feels very

unsatisfying. i think a lot of people will be concerned about that. your comment that this looks like another foot soldier paying the price for donald trump's corruption is very apt. there is, though, a silver lining here, and whether it hints at what michael is talking about, perhaps a renewed investigation in manhattan. that's the notion that these are the first criminal convictions thatch gone into trump's orbit. this is his long time cfo who as you have outlined is incredibly important to their operation. two companies, trump payroll, and trump corp. corporations can't go to prison and the fines are modest, the fact of the criminal conviction suggests that trump is no longer impervious to the criminal justice system. for far too long he's alluded it. the last thing i'll say here, and you raised the issue of the federal government. michael talks about how now criminal investigations will come under congressional

scrutiny. you have to wonder where the federal government was. why the prosecution in manhattan that started with michael cohen didn't go anywhere else, and why would the manhattan d.a. appears to have wrapped up these tax charge, haven't seemed to have elicited any interest from the irs. you know, the federal government doesn't usually prosecute behind a state case, but here the federal interest, the federal task crimes aren't vindicated by a state prosecution. you have to wonder whether there's a federal prosecution or whether the irs has simply decided it's not worth going after for whatever reason. >> that's so interesting, especially in light of the reporting about the irs spending a lot of time and money and human resources conducting what's known as an autopsy without the benefit of debt. that kind of audit. jim comey and andrew mccabe, 18 months apart. no time to look for their enforcement division to look

into these potential crimes. what do you -- i mean, i know from being in the government, the conspiracies are sometimes unlikely. what do you make as a potential explanation for why no charges were brought from sdmy, enforcement action from the irs, what's a working theory for why there's been nothing? >> usually when you're a federal agency or federal prosecutor and somebody gift wraps a prosecution and hands it to you, you're real happy to open the presence. i think that makes the tax situation here difficult to understand but typically when prosecutors decide not to move forward in one of these high profile cases, they do it because they see a problem with the case. they believe that there's insufficient evidence to obtain a verdict, to convince a jury of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. maybe they think there's a legal component. it's very tough to assess these

from the outside. i find it very easy particularly in this situation to wonder where the federal government has been. we don't know what their calculus on the evidence was. it might be something if we fully understood we would disagree with. perhaps we would agree, but ultimately this looks very unsatisfying to the average american who would be subjected to criminal prosecution if their conduct approached this level of malfeasance. >> i'll give you the last word. what do you think happens next? >> in which case? there's so many cases -- >> in all of it. i think there's a tepidness, a lackadaisical feel, a lack of vigor, if you will, there's all of this public facing evidence now against donald trump, against his company, against him that's been released by the congressional committee, and i know that doj prides itself on operating in secret and letting

its charging documents do the talking, but when there aren't any, there's no talking. you were prosecuted vigorously. and that stopped, why? >> i don't know the answer. that's something that maybe you should bring in damien williams, the new head of the southern district of new york. interestingly enough, he created that integrity conviction unit in order to look at different convictions to see whether or not it was done in the proper way because we have all lost, as joyce was just saying, we have all lost, i hate to say it, our respect in our justice department because it moves too slow in the decisions, like this one are tepid. at the end of the day, i had sent a request for damien williams to take a look at my case to see, for example, geoffrey berman in his own words kept this hidden because he doesn't want to get fired. four years later he puts it in a

book. it's unethcall or illegal. at the end of the day, i believe there's more coming. joyce is right about that. and i believe it's going to be in new york. >> bragg's office or tish james office. how is that for a tease. joyce vance, michael cohen, thank you for starting us off today. what we know about the inquiry, found in an office in washington, we'll talk to a reporter who has covered that case, plus the other classified documents case and why this is no mar-a-lago. plus, a pair of new york democrats, hand delivering an ethics complaint to their colleagues. admitted liar, george santos, it's more than just the lies. he has broken the law. and later in the show, house republicans coming to the justice department as we have been discussing how doj and democrats are preparing for the gop's renewed call to

investigate the investigators. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. s after. don't go anywhere today. ( ♪♪ ) some things leave you guessing. mailchimp takes the guesswork out of email marketing by analyzing data from billions of emails to offer suggestions

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only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪ no matter what republicans are saying today and they are saying a lot, the reality of the following situation is this, whereas donald trump's improper storage of classified material at his mar-a-lago resort was a lesson in what one should not do should such a situation arise, today's news serves the opposite purpose. a lesson, if you will, in what to do, even if the gop seems

eager to convince their base otherwise. here's what we know, the white house is cooperating with the justice department and the national archives after a quote small number of documents, less than a dozen. two sources familiar with the situation turn up at a think tank in washington right before the midterms. at an office, quote, periodically used by joe biden between mid-2017 and his 2020 presidential campaign. the department of justice is conducting a review. the similarities between the two cases pretty much end there. because there are crucial differences which republicans seem eager to ignore. from nbc's reporting on the story, importantly the number of classified documents found at the pen biden center are smaller than what was discovered at trump's mar-a-lago. biden's lawyer say they immediately turned over the documents, unlike trump's situation, and the classification level of these biden documents remained unclear, versus what we know about some top secret documents found at mar-a-lago. yet, those differences didn't stop trump from seizing on the

news. one of trump's most effective plays has been to be able to make other's mistakes serve to down play his own. joining us former white house press secretary for president biden and now a host on msnbc, and charlie savage, pulitzer prize winning washington correspondent covering doj's investigations into the handling of classified documents and an msnbc contributor. your byline is on the times story on this, which painstakingly goes into detail the ways in which these investigations are quite different and spends time talking about there's no role here where the national archives were pursuing months on end, classified material and being rebuffed and obstructed by a president. take me through the distinctions in the "times" reporting in these two cases. >> absolutely, i do want to caveat, though, the information

is still incomplete about both of these cases. we don't know in the public exactly what trump was saying to colleagues and his level of knowledge about whether he still had documents after the subpoena. we know that's one of the things the special counsel is looking at. all we really know right now is what was in the white house acknowledgment and a little bit of extra information that's leaked out around the edges of that. we don't know, for example, how the documents got into this closet and whether anyone was exposed and so forth. all of that said, based on the available information to date, there's quite a lot of differences. the number one one is when the biden team discovered the documents that had classification markets, they cleared the news and came and picked them up and has been cooperating with the justice department and archives since then which stands in contrast to what you were suggesting, the national archives tried for a half of a year to get trump to

return documents it knew he had. he dragged his feet. finally allowed him to take fifteen boxes out. the boxes had classified information, they issued a grand jury subpoena for everything left in his possession. his representatives turned over 38 documents, said that was it. it wasn't it. they have witnesses and security footage showing there was still more leading to the august 8 fbi search in which they discovered another 103 classified documents along with thousands of other government records. in terms of scale, but more importantly in terms of cooperation versus obstruction, these are quite different situations, based on the information we have today. >> based on the information we have today and trump's own interviews, the likes of sean hannity and the others, you have the intent. donald trump intended to keep all of these documents. he has said publicly, they're mine, mine, mine. he also intended to obstruct the

investigation. he has over and over again attacked the fbi, which has resulted in an extraordinary threat level against the fbi. there is a separate obstruction of justice investigation based on trump's handling of the investigation into his sort of taking and absconding and refusing to return classified documents. >> that's exactly right. there are questions we don't know the answers to. i have asked colleagues questions as well. what is important is what you just said is the intent. the white house did confirm that the president didn't know these documents were there. clearly he had no intention to share them with anyone, to give anyone access to them, and that is in stark contrast to what we saw take place with trump. bragging about these documents, withholding these documents when they were repeatedly asked for, and we still don't know who had access to them exactly. that is a huge difference. there's no question, though, just to be clear that this is a pain in the neck for the white

house. this is something that needs explanation, which you're clearly doing and others are doing. there are huge differences, this is a talking point that republicans and trump supporters will continue to try to muddy the waters on. >> charlie, what does doj do now? >> well, merrick garland, the attorney general has assigned a u.s. attorney in chicago who is one of only two u.s. attorneys that were appointed by trump, and held over into the biden administration, so he has a bipartisan credibility to look at this situation and try to answer some of the questions that i was pointing out, how do these things get there, where were they before they were in the closet, biden was only there mid-2017 and left off in early 2017. who had access to them, are there other documents? he has been doing that since november. we don't know if he's already answered the questions. if he has, it hasn't leaked out.

it's called an initial investigation, called the special council regulations. its purpose is to help the attorney general gather facts and research, to make a decision about whether to appoint a special counsel. garland, the same month last november appointed jack smith to take over the mar-a-lago documents investigation, in part because trump was running for president, and biden probably was going to as well, and the question is whether these differences we've been discussing are sufficient to overcome the appearance of a conflict of interest and the highly sensitive matter of investigating a president that garland identified as a rational for putting a special counsel in charge of the trump investigation. >> what did your former colleagues say? i talked to one senior white house official who acknowledged that there's a story. it is news, indeed. and seemed to appreciate the detail and the attention to detail that journalists like the print coverage has represented.

not talking about the hysterical coverage on fox news, which is obviously hyperbole. but seemed to appreciate that this was a story that there was a process, that this was what it was. but that's not the world we live in. i mean, you're going to have drums clanging clanging so loud emanating from the disclosure and the reality. are they girding for that circle of disinformation, and propaganda and pressure i'm sure will come down on merrick garland to appoint a special counsel for this classified document disclosure. >> yeah, i mean, nicolle, and you and i have been in these hallways before, i think there's no question there was some curse words thrown around when senior folks at the white house learned about these documents being found. i think what they're strategically doing, and this is what someone told me there today is being very by the book in

every aspect of this, and now this is being reviewed by the justice department. therefore it is in the hands of the justice department to provide any additional details. we know the justice department does not do such things when a review is ongoing. there's an aspect of that that is both convenient in that there's not more details that can be shared and inconvenient because clarifying details are helpful to them. they are strategically and purposefully trying to do every aspect by the book because that, in the end, may help them in the long-term even if it's unpleasant right now. >> charlie savage, thank you for joining us to talk about the reporting on this story. jen sticks around. we switch gears a little bit. george santos is being bombarded his first week in office, not just by reporters but multiple calls for investigations into him and his lies. we'll tell you about the various complaints he's facing, just the ones that happened today. that story next. ng, just the ones that happened today that story next. u do? ♪ what will you change?

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[daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. we haven't seen a single movement on the part of republican leadership. george santos cast the deciding vote for kevin mccarthy so that he could become speaker of the house. so they have wrapped their arms around him. george santos needs to be held accountable for his lies. >> that was now congressman earlier today after he and fellow new york democrat ritchie torres hand delivered an ethics complaint to congressman george

santos. you can see the disgraced congressman in the background directing the document to be handed to an aide at the door to his office. the democrats filed a complaint with the ethics committee demanding an investigation into santos, who admitted to lying about every aspect of his personal life. he failed to file timely, accurate and complete financial disclosure reports as required by law, and that is not all. in addition to four ongoing criminal investigations, santos could now also face a formal investigation by the federal election commission, into how exactly he loaned his campaign more than $700,000, despite having a $55,000 a year salary two years ago. in a new complaint, the nonpartisan campaign legal center says quote the overall circumstances indicate that unknown individuals or corporations might have illegally funneled money to his newly formed company, debolder

llc, jen is still with us. tim miller, this is so on brand for the republicans after giving away everything, kevin mccarthy now owes his speakership to big fat liar under multiple investigations, george santos. >> look, this is just another example of the way that just the two parties are treating these kinds of things differently right now. look at how the democrats acted, you know, when there were accusations against andrew cuomo, al franken. this is on a different level from anything that we've seen before in either party, you know, it's different from how republicans acted with steve aiken and todd king back in the day. george santos, the degree to his lies are just beyond the pale. it's something out of a movie. it's possible as representative goldman has pointed out there are actual real legal

ramifications. it's not just lies he's perpetuating against his constituents, but that he broke the law, particularly with regards to the campaign money, nobody knows where it came from. this is a guy that had to steal checks to buy shoes, and a dead beat renter not too long ago. now he's lending his campaign, $700,000. i think it speaks to just the weakness of kevin mccarthy and the state of the party right now that they need this guy so desperately, they're not willing to take a stand for the party's brand, you know, for what is morally and ethically right, you know, for the medium term, political concerns, and not put this guy on committee. that's not the path they're taking. they're just moving forward, meanwhile, they're trying to get back at eric swalwell or whatever. >> yeah, i mean, jen, it's like the light, you know, in your car goes off, and you've got a three-hour drive and the kids are in, pack their snacks and steps in and took the dog pee and put the dog in the car,

we're going, the engine light is on. kevin mccarthy gave away everything. this guy is under criminal investigation. let me read the list, under investigation bit u.s. attorneys office in the eastern district of new york, the district attorney in nasa county, new york, new york attorney general tish james, brazil is also investigating him in their free time after they put down the insurrection whose flames were fanned by steve bannon, the new complaint demanding an s.e.c. investigation and the story we came on the air with, ethics committee investigation. at least six investigations into george santos. it's just, come on, buckle up here we go, republicans. >> yeah, it sounds like quite a car trip. it makes me feel tired, but look, i think what kevin mccarthy, steve scalise, others who have been sort of forced to speak to this, to the credit of capitol hill reporters, is so unsatisfying. they haven't had a conversation with him. they clearly haven't looked into this. now, just as you just outlined,

there could be much larger problems here. there are much larger problems here for george santos than the ethics committee, but still, they have done nothing because they need him. now, to the credit of dan goldman who's been in congress for about five seconds but has obviously been around and understands how media works and also ritchie torres, they didn't allow this to be a paper process that kevin mccarthy and others could sweep under the rug. they took the cameras with them to the door to do a photo op and also an important elevation of the type of lies and violations that we're seeing here. >> all right. tim and jen, stick around, up next for all of us, kevin mccarthy, again, following through on his promise of pay back, as tim just alluded to. removing three democrats from serving on house committees, and we are to believe this is just the start for speaker mccarthy. we'll talk about that next. we'll talk about that next

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will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for free speech, liberty and justice. your support is more urgently needed than ever. reproductive rights are on the line and we are looking at going backwards. we have got to be here. we've got to be strong to protect those rights. so please join the aclu now. call or go to my aclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt member card magazine and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought

for everyone to have a voice and equal justice. and we will never stop because we the people, means all of us. so please call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. one year ago, kevin mccarthy started talking about revenge. he vowed payback for republicans who were stripped of their committee assignments from the last congress. republicans who pretty much deserved it. a new report confirms he plans to keep that promise, to block democratic members of congress schiff and swalwell. yet mccarthy plans to add to

committees one marjorie taylor greene who was stripped from assignments. paul gosar, who was removed for violent rhetoric and george santos who faces four criminal investigations and two new ethics complaints today. we're back with tim and jen. jen, how should democrats respond to this? >> i mean, first of all, i think it's important to remember when marjorie taylor greene was kicked off a committee, 11 republicans also voted for that because her rhetoric was so offensive that republicans also thought it was offensive. i think that democrats need to do is what schiff is doing. call out what they're doing. deflect. not do the work of the people. it's not as if the house is going to go amazing policy work right now anyway. so what the democrats need to do

is hold their feet to the fire. don't let up and keep speaking out about what these secret plans mean to people keep paying attention to it. >> tim, your thoughts on this and you had some other things on your mind today, too. >> yeah. my colleague was on the hill and asked george santos if he wanted to get put back on committees, what committees he would want and santos replied, i don't know, anything that would be good. this guy. it's not like marjorie taylor greene is going into the committee to do real work, jewish space lasers. the contrast, mccarthy wants to put these complete nihilists, liars, bigots of people who attended white nationalist rall wills. after what happened in the midterms and these extreme

republicans were rejected, it's political malpractice. wrong on every level and shows how empty the republican conference is of seriousness. on the other note, we did learn a "new york times" reporter died today. i worked with him and deeply admired him. cared a lot about democracy and human rights. he's a guy bursting with humanity and it's been gutting news today. i just felt like we should acknowledge blake and say he'll be missed and send our love to his wife and kids. >> his family has -- has communicated and it just everything that we know so much of what we know, we know from the journalism that's transpired over the last six years and had anyone in this committee of truth tellers. you said tim cared so much about democracy is a gutting, gutting

loss. thank you for bringing that up. i applaud anyone throwing anything out there. all of our viewers and contributors we're all in this pit of trying to understand the chaos and ugliness in our politics and people who shine light on it are all such a blessing, to tim, i thank you for bringing that up and making that turn for all of us. tim and jen, thank you both for spending some time with us today. we treasure you. up next for us, more on what's in store from this new republican house majority and how they plan to go to war with the department of justice. don't go anywhere. with the department of justice. don'got anywhere. if you have copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives me better breathing and helps prevent flare-ups. before breztri, i was stuck in the past. i still had bad days, flare-ups, which kept me from doing what i love. my doctor said for my copd, it was time for breztri.

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investigate the investigators. whether it's strzok and page. whether it's clapper and whether it's comey and all of these people. because terrible things went on for our country. >> it's time we investigate the investigators. >> we have to investigate the investigators. >> so they're trying to get rid of folks in the fbi who have conservative believes. that's part of this broad concern we have with the justice department. specifically the fbi and we're going to investigate the specific matters and that broad, general concern. >> here we go. 5:00 in new york. it's been a rallying cry on the part of donald trump and his allies for years. investigate the investigators. now it is the new mission statement of the house republicans and it's coming to reality now. the form of a new subcommittee

being formed by the house republicans. nbc reports this, quote, the new panel structured as a subcommittee judiciary committee is expected to be chaired by jim jordan. with subpoena power, it will be tasked with investigating law enforcement agencies as part of a mandate to probe the quote weaponization of the federal government language to establish the panel is tucked inside a house rules package that passed monday. it was one of many concessions mccarthy gave in order to win the speakership. it will empower the gop to look into any government agency or program such as the fbi, the irs, and the intelligence community and allows them to probe, quote, ongoing criminal investigations. politico calls the creation of the panel mutually assured obstruction and writes this, quote, it's an opening sal voe that promises to escalate

quickly. prosecutors are not going to hand over on probes. the conflict promises to erode the strained relationship between doj and republicans. democrats have call out the move. a member of the house judiciary committee nicknamed the panel the maga grieve committee. yesterday -- slammed his committee for doing what this new committee is supposed to uncover. >> house republicans decry the federal government, yet the whole rule would allow the federal government to be weaponized against any federal official who draws the wrath of the majority. the rule would enable house republicans to zero out funding for investigation into donald trump. the new rules would defund the office of congressional ethics. the new rules would enable a member being investigated by the fbi to investigate the

investigators investigating him. mr. speaker, so much for draining the swamp. >> intensifying war between house republicans and the department of justice is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. neil is here. he's now a law professor at georgetown university and and msnbc legal analyst. also joining us, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst, david jolly's here and tara joining us. senior adviser to the lincoln project and resident scholar. neil, this is how it starts, right? it threatens corrupt actors. doj was run by bill barr for the four years when jim jordan couldn't bear to put on a jacket and was growing positively frothy and rabid. what are they so mad about? >> well, first of all, i think it's the first time in my memory that the gop's actually opposed

to these weaponization so i guess in that sense, it's a good thing, but i think by weaponization what these folks mean is just truth. what this committee is going to do at best, it will enable congressional overreach and at worst, this kind of free wheeling power into the juice justice department and other places has the real potential to allow congress to sabotage a legitimate investigation by the justice department into the leader of the republican party, donald trump, or their supporters like in the case of representative scott perry. you know, if the republicans allow someone like perry to be on the committee, it's a kin to giving a suspect in a police investigation authority to investigate the cops looking into him. even if he's not allowed on, it's the same sort of problem so that title mutually assured

obstruction is very -- >> i think obstruction is the best case scenario. you've got i think what, a dozen pardon seekers in the house republican conference? they all obstructed the january 6th probe. they all killed a bipartisan commission with joint subpoena power to investigate the insurrection that endangered all their lives. it feels like once the genie's out of the bottle, you could have a whole bunch of human beings -- on whatever it's called instead of actually dealing with matters that are important to u.s. national security. >> that's right. maybe the way i put it is to say you know, this seems to be about congressional self interest. not about the public interest. it's about protecting their hides from possible prosecution by the justice department and i expect the justice department to

vigorously resist. that's an understatement. the idea that any doj is going to turn over investigative files is ridiculous. there will be court fights. i also think one thing that may happen is if you're merrick garland or jack smith and you see this committee devoted to destruction on the horizon, it might speed up your timetable. it might mean you're more likely to bring that indictment more quickly than otherwise because you want this in the courts. the last place you want this is with jim jordan and other political actors who are trying to make hay of a criminal investigation. so do what the government has done for 200 years. make your case in court. if trump and others have defenses, let them make them, of course, and let the judge and jury decide. >> neil, i went back and looked at all of the attacks donald trump launched on doj while he was president and there were of course the ones we played. but there were also many, many

times where he was going after his own political appointees. his favorite target was rod rosensteen. his chief deputy spent a lot of time on capitol hill dealing with this exact makeup of house republicans trying to keep jim jordan from voting to impeach rosensteen. this is partisan, of course, because of the fact the administration is in the hands of a democratic president but this is also in aversion to the rule of law. what does that say to you? >> yeah, it's an aversion to truth and wray was appointed to donald trump -- anytime anyone crosses party lines and does something as a government official that might suggest a republican is engaged in wrong doing, then trump screams

investigate the investigators. dr. seuss predicted this a long time ago. if you have an investigation of the investigators, you can also have an investigation of the investigation of the investigators, namely the united states senate. so if this continues and you have that republicans in the house obstructing justice, the senate may launch an investigation into what the house is going and the justice department itself might do so. that's why the normal way we deal with this is in court, not through republican antics. unfortunately, that's all they have left of a governing agenda is just investigations. >> well, and governing agenda is putting it too generously, david. here's what it came from. this happened last night on the 8:00 p.m. hour on fox. >> something we've been talking about and thinking about for

quite some time which is the creation of a committee modelled after the famous frank church committee of the 1970s that will look a lot more closely at the influence of the fbi and the various intel agencies on domestic politics. >> we were working with to make sure that this church committee a suggestion you've had and thank you for suggesting i should be on it. i don't know if you're clairvoyant and just made the future happen, but it's happening. we were making sure this committee wasn't going to be fenced in. we've secured a guarantee that we can go whatever the evidence leads us. >> again, in one of those moments where i would laugh if it wasn't so damn dangerous. tucker carlson calling the plays and apparently picking the members of the committee that will now investigate the united states department of justice and

fbi. >> yeah, the almost dangerous concession mccarthy gave to the insurrectionists in the house was the establishment of this committee on the weapon saiks of the federal government. not just because it can give aid and comfort in retelling the false narrative around the insurrectionists and donald trump's antics around 2020, but for its ability to foment insurrection anew. consider the difference in context this committee has compared to all of the other requests. the insurrectionists. hunter biden, the border and afghanistan, those are driven to get to the president. then we expected the investigations for the base. the red meat. the attacks on anthony fauci. the jail keepers for the 1/6 insurrectionists in the d.c. jail. those are not about biden. they're about the base. and this final one though. is the lightning rod for the base. which is that the deep state is

out to get you. consider the name of the panel. the weaponization of the federal government. well who is it being weaponized against? clearly in republican narratives, it's being weapon ized against you. the danger here is that they will spend two years telling the american people they cannot trust law enforcement to protect us from harm. that they themselves are providing harm and injury on the american people. it's a through line in republican politics as it moved from less government to no government to now government is the enemy and government is evil. and it is not hyperbolic. i checked myself on this. to suggest that through line leads to timothy mcveigh moment or to moments where people want to kidnap the governor of michigan and the reason it's not hyperbolic is because we saw it result in the violent insurrection on january 6th.

they gave us the tell in saying it's just like the church committee. >> yeah, i mean, i, like you, wanted to check myself and my reaction to this and i will choose my words carefully here. but we live in a moment of heightened threat of domestic violent extremism. we know from christopher wray's testimony, we know in that bucket, the ideology is white supremacist. we also know that by fomenting distrust of the fbi, we saw it just in the period between the early august court approved search of mar-a-lago. in the months that followed. the attacks on the fbi had real life consequences for the fbi.

an armed gunman attacked an fbi field office. we know that attacks on the irs have a real life impact on the threat level faced by employees of the irs. we know that attacks on the national archives never thought i'd utter that sentence on live tv, let me say it again. attacks on the national archives have resulted in a real life elevation of a threat level against employees of the national archives. again, never thought i'd have to say that sentence on tv. they are creating a climate where political violence is not just tolerated, but preferable to running in elections in a democracy and prevailing. this is the strategy and i guess my concern is that it is beyond norm busting. it is reprehensible and i wonder if you believe that our institutions are ready for this. >> i'm not sure we are as a country ready for the cultural divide this might create. this is their insurrection

committee. fwen again, the committee, the platform they will use to foment insurrection using the levers of the congress. the through line to violence, a good friend of the show of yours and mine, fred guttenburg, said today, please continue to talk about the violence. and it brings in another constituency. again, i don't want to be dark, but if we don't talk about this, we're not forewarned. at the root of the ardent second amendment most zealous advocates in today's republican party is that i need my weapons for when the government comes for me. that is the reason for the second amendment and arm citizenry to protect themselves against the government. well what is this weaponization panel going to do? it's going to be like main lining heroin into that con constituency. they're surveilling you and they are going to rip at your

liberties if you don't protect us from it and jim jordan is going to suggest he's going to lead the nation out of this dark chapter when he's going to lead us right into it. this is a dangerous concession that goes back to mccarthy's corrupt bargain and it will be on him to try to keep it in check but i think he's shown us he will have zero ability to do that. >> again, i think a culture clash is generous, tara. this isn't a culture war. these aren't differing ideas about gun culture. it's all a lie. they had an investigation into the investigators and the lead investigator was named john durham and he found jack diddley squat. he found nothing. he was blessed with all the money the federal government pursestrings could pour into the investigation. bill barr freshened up his passport, got on a plane and went to italy with john durham

to help him. you know what that esteemed u.s. attorney found in two and a half years? nothing. the investigation to the investigators conducted at the highest levels of the federal government with all of the credibility bestowed upon it and respect paid to it by all the people yielded nothing because it's all a lie. that the investigations are rigged and corrupt. there's no evidence of that. >> no and they know that. but this is part of the parlor game they're playing because there's plenty of evidence of how many of these republican congressmen were actively involved in fomenting an insurrection. and we cannot lose sight of that. to david's point. the point of all of this is completely to deflect. they are accusing everyone of what they have actually involved themselves in. they've become everything they claim to despise.

it's a slight of hand. it furthers the suspicions of underlining our institutions. part of what makes democracy work is the fact that american people have a certain respect for certain institutions. from someone like myself who comes from a law enforcement family where the rule of law and respecting the constitution and part of the reason why i became a republican in the first place was because of that respect for our law enforcement and military and the constitution and rule of law. all of that is out the window. all of it. they're a bunch of hypocrites. republicans have turned into absolute hypocrites if they think this is somehow honoring the constitution or upholding their oaths of office. it's not. this is part of a really ugly march toward authoritarianism. you look in history of places

where democracies have fallen and turned into totalitarian autocracies, it starts with undermining the press. there's a reason why hitler called it the lying press, the enemy of the people. language used by our former president and there's a reason why they went after institutions and weaponized them. the fact they're even naming this committee the weaponization of the federal government dot dot dot, it's actionable at that point. the people are looking at this and saying that's right. then you end up with another january 6th. they're exporting this. look at what happened in brazil. it was almost a textbook repeat of what happened on january 6th. also fomented by the similar same people who tried to coordinate january 6th. this is exporting now to other democracies across the world and we're supposed to be the example of the opposite. so this has implications even

beyond domestic policy where america is being emulated for the worst of the worst. so these republicans need to be held accountable and we need to continue to expose what they're doing because david's right. when i was in congress, we had a subcommittee that had oversight investigations in partisan affairs and there was bipartisan support where you actually did real work. what republicans are doing now is nothing but a show trial. to cover what they are actually involved in and we need to make sure we expose it constantly. >> i remember you know, when i was in republican politics, we'd call them the tin hat wearing extremists now they're running the tucker carlson inspired subcommittee. neil, david, tara, to be continued. thank you so much for starting us off on this story this hour. when we come back, we'll get reaction to the gop's collision

course from a democratic member of congress. barbara lee of california is our next guest. plus, pressure is growing on the biden administration to extradite brazil's former president after his supporters motivated by false claims of a rigged election stormed their country's capital and now regular brazilians are in the streets calling for no amnesty for the rioters. and we're keeping our eye on mexico city where president biden along with the president of mexico and prime minister of canada are moments away from caking questions from reporters after their summit meetings today. don't go anywhere. r summit meet today. don't go anywhere.

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my prediction is there will be ways we can work together and if a large number of republicans reject this maga fringe, mccarthy will have no choice but to follow. >> leader schumer is feeling bullish. democrats in the house fight feel differently as republicans seek to use their power for investigations. t first, i wanted to ask you what's the vibe like? how's it feeling? you've got george santos running around. you've got mccarthy empowering all of the folks who were enthusiastic about the insurrection. you've got mccarthy sort of limping over the line, barely getting there. what is the mood up there?

>> democrats are unified. i think you saw last week, 15 ballots. i was a teller. 5,280 votes cast. democrats are very unified and first of all, working to address the kitchen table issues that the people deserve -- and trying to make sure the qanon theories are not embodied in all the legislation. they are in the rules package to we're fighting like you wouldn't believe on behalf of the american people. we're going to work with whoever we can to meet the needs of the country. >> do you share leader schumer's optimism that there will be pockets and opportunities for collaboration in the house? >> we're always optimistic that

there could be. i co-chaired the cannabis caucus. it's a bipartisan effort. there have been many issues around defense spending that i've worked with many of the maga republicans on. i think there are some areas. where there are not, we're not going to go along with the qanon theories and their policies. we're going to fight. but sure, we want to do everything we can do to make this country work for everyone in terms of its economy and in terms of the fact that so many people who are living on the edge, who are low income, poor, need us to step up and move forward and make sure that there's justice and equality in all of our policies. >> you know, you mentioned qanon and it's not hyperbole to say that the forces within the house republican conference that are ascendant are those who in their own words, marjorie taylor greene believes the qanon conspiracy theorists are her people. it comes out in testimony in

transcripts from the 1/6 select committee. that is where the power brokers were last week. what do we do about that at a time when conspiracy theories and domestic violent extremism threatens all of us? >> it's a very dangerous moment and we have to one, speak out and tell the truth. two, we have to fight back on what they have put into this rules package. the debt ceiling. it would be a tragedy, it would be a tragic mistake not to raise the debt ceiling. can you imagine senior citizens, social security will be cut. medicare will be cut. veterans pensions will be cut. this is who they are and this is what they have put into their rules committee package. also the right to full range of reproductive healthcare including abortion and contraception. they want to dismantle this. i think we saw on the election, every person should make their

own decisions about their healthcare. so all these policies now are in the rules package. we fight against them and the american people are with us and we have to make sure we have the public support to beat back these policies and to move forward with our own and no one says it's going to be easy, but this is the moment we're in. >> it look like mcconnell might be with you, too. he's out there talking about bridges and tunnels and roads and broadband. if there was one message voters sent in november it's that extremism is not for me. it's not going to put more money in my bank account. make my life better. it may be fun on fox news in the evenings after i've had a beer and dinner, but voters rejected it and it's all the house republicans are serving up. do you detect any angst from members, i know there aren't many anymore, but members who may be in biden or swing districts? >> i think if you look at the vote for speaker mccarthy and if

you look at the vote on the rules package, i don't think so. even the ones who would not want to vote that way voted that way. so i think the proof is of the pudding is in the eating. look at what they've done already. there are few who have voted against the maga extremist republicans. as of today, i don't see that. >> i hail from california so i'm going to make a sharp turn to local issues for you and these devastating storms. my family sent me pictures of the street i grew up in with trees that were there my whole life. tell me what's going on in california and what is being done to aid and help folks. >> we are doing everything we can do work with the governor. i am personally helping to raise money through our non-profits to help the families losing their

homes. it's very dangerous and we're putting all of our resources, our time, everything we can do now to help the people of california. it's a horrific moment. people have lost their lives and it's very dangerous and so i think all hands on deck. we've got to make sure that we protect all of our california residents as they, as these storms continue. >> i looked at the weather app. there's i think eight more days of rain on the, rain as far as the forecast is predicted. congresswoman, we've been trying to get on your dance card for a couple of days. thank you very much for spending time with us today. >> nice being with you. when we come back, why holding everyone involved in the january 6th plot accountable is the key to stopping the insurrections in democracies all around the globe. that story's next. democracies l around the globe that story's next.

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i think it's impossible to separate that kind of extraordinary lawlessness from what happened here in our country and the kind of rhetoric that balsonaro has engaged in. he's called the trump of the tropics and he's in florida right now. >> that was zoe lofgren on this show at this hour yesterday and the chilling parallels between the situation, the crisis in brazil that happened at our nation's capitol two years ago this week. what's different is the response from the brazilians while

members of the gop here have spent the past two years whitewashing twice impeached disgraced ex-president's role in inciting the insurrection and brazil, calls are growing to extradite former president balsonaro from florida back to his home country for his role in the riots. late yesterday evening, thousands of brazilians took to the streets. more than 1500 people have been detained in connection with those riots. one commentator in brazil drew a straight line between the actions of the american president and his allies and riots in brazil saying this, quote, if there was no trump, there would be no balsonaro in brazil and if there was no invasion of the capitol, there would not have been the invasion we saw yesterday. and brazil's new president forcefully condemned them saying this, quote, we will not allow democracy to slip out of our hands in the name of defending democracy, we will not act in an

authoritarian way with anyone, but we will also not go lightly on they will. we will investigate and find out who financed it. joining our coverage, editor of the bull work. and basil. it is so tempting to move away from this story. this is the second part of the january 6 insurrection we saw here in our country two years ago, charlie. >> no, and that quote you just had is right. this is very clarifying. anyone in this country around the world can see this is what a cue looks like. this is what an assault looks like on democracy, but this is exactly what happened in this country on january 6th and this

really underlines the importance of accountability. we have had hundreds of the rioters, insurrectionists, who have been charged and jailed, but as of right now, none of the higher ups, none of the people who have encited this, none of the architect of this have been held legally accountable. the reality is unless that happens, we will see more events like this in this country and around the world because like donald trump and steve bannon and steven miller are intent on importing this antidemocratic sedition around the world. we need to understand what the full implications for global democracy are of not holding people accountable when they try to overthrow an election. >> charlie, i want to read from your excellent piece on this. bannon's fingerprints are all over what happened next. last november, "the washington post" reported quote trump aides bannon and miller advising the

balsonaros on next steps. what's happening in brazil is a world event, bannon told the post. the people are saying they've been grossly disenfranchised. the movement has moved beyond the balsonaros in the way in the u.s. it has moved beyond trump, he boasted. lest you imagine trump was talking about peaceful protests. bannon celebrated this week's rampage after mobs of rioters attacked government buildings this week, bannon posted pictures of the rioters calling them brazilian freedom fighters. tucker carlson, he chose to use his highly watched monologue last night to spread the lie that this was a rigged election. now like in our country, there's no evidence there was any fraud. they're using the similar lies saying the voting machines were rigged. they were not. they were not here. there's something almost like watching a child play with fire

crackers, charlie. and these moves are willing to go and fight and in die for the lives. it's almost like the stupid human trick 2.0. oh, like, in brazil, they're willing to do the same thing. how do you break that cycle? >> first of all, understand what this cycle is where bannon is putting out pictures of the rioters who are attacking the capital and cheering them on. he is celebrating the destruction. now keep in mind for a long time, the maga world was saying no, this was a peaceful protest. we don't, we support the protest. not the violence. steve bannon's basically saying screw that, i am not celebrating the violence. what steve bannon and others are doing now is they are grooming people who believe that political violence is justified if you don't like the outcome of the election. he is grooming people to believe

that these kinds of responses in fact make you a patriot or freedom fighter. so again, part of it is this is the same thing that happened on january 6th, but the full throated celebration, the reveling in the actual riot is something that i think we ought to recognize how this window keeps moving for people like steve bannon. they like the violence. there's no attempt to say well, you know, we condemned the violence, but we have a legitimate question. he has pictures of people breaking windows, destroying property, attacking police officers and he calls them brazilian freedom fighters. this is chilling and we ought to look at it very, very closely. >> yeah, basil, my concern is that we're staring at the sun. we are looking at it very, very closely. my concern is that people

falling for it, people go to jail in brazil just as close to 1,000 people have been prosecuted here, but right now, i believe balsonaro is living the high life in south florida. >> yeah, that's an important point because as charlie said, i advise everybody to read charlie's piece, but if you have time, go see a documentary called the balsonaros, which speaks a lot about the rise of balsonaro, his entire family, and with no money and no resources basically built a presidential campaign through what's app and it's really critical because i have friends in brazil. i've been there many times. i talk to them through what's app. they talk to each other through what's app and in their documentary, it shows our bannon and other americans were working for balsonaro to support his campaign so you see it clear as day. and you know, one of the

important concerns in all of this is that brazil had what could be described as a military regime from the 1960s to the 1980s so you have people there with full memories of what used to exist. you have some with no memory of it, but some who heard the stories and don't want to go back to that. that's why this accountability becomes important because if you can't bring people to this point of accountability, if there's no sort of restraint on these attacks and this radicalization if you will, then we will see democracies start to falter. and i think the brazilian people or have always known, but certainly understanding of it now, how fragile democracies can be. as balsonaro is i think florida or what i guess is supposed to be medical treatment, there are reports that he's meeting with people or taking pictures with brazilians here who have been supportive of him.

we have to be mindful that the geopolitics of what we're seeing in brazil, experienced here in the united states, that we are not done. as even as in this country we're trying to figure out how to regulate something like what's app or twitter or facebook, europe is way ahead of us on this. but there are other countries that may not deal with it at all. so what are we going to do then as again, democracies are shown to be as fragile as they are. >> a conversation that is to be continued. thank you very much for joining us today. when we come back, a string of shootings targeting democratic lawmakers and elected officials in one battleground state. what police are learning about the motive behind a frightening crime spree. that story's next. a frightening crime spree. that story's next.

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terrorism division. he's now an msnbc national security analyst. clint, what are your questions? as we now go from knowing about the shootings. knowing who was targeting to knows there's a suspect. >> a few things stick out. there was a pattern with the targeting. they're all democrats all related to the recent election. you have a pattern of shootings where it didn't actually go after the human being per se, or doesn't seem so. their targeting locations where those individuals might be. one of the things that's key in this, they have forensic evidence. one, they probably recovered a lot of the bullets. you showed the bullet holes there on the different structures. next, they each formed really a pattern and i imagine in any day and age with cameras in the neighborhoods, police were able over time to go ahead and piece

some of that information together. so i wouldn't be surprised by that. and part of what we're hearing is that they are waiting for a search warrant or search warrant returns. they're probably trying to keep this case tied up as much as possible. and the most critical part is unrelated charges were mentioned in terms of that news article that you spoke about. which means this person may be known to law enforcement before which provided them some sort of way to actually identify this individual. >> and this individual is in custody and you're saying that they may be using the time while he's in custody to obtain search warrants and to present to judges probable cause for learning more about his motives or profile or additional targets? >> that's right. and this case it doesn't seem they caught the perpetrator in the act. so without that evidence what they try and do is build a case and to build a case, they have to up the level of probable cause. a good way to do that is to look

for different charges that are there. build your case out. expand your search and try and build a larger evidence base essentially to bring charges against the individual. it also could be that now that they actually have an individual there, they think that is the individual that did these acts, they may be trying to work through an interrogation process, try and get some more information. all this could be unfolding as we're talking right now. >> obviously this is a national story for a variety of reasons, but one is this undeniable uptick in political violence or what seems like the targeting of political figures. what do you make of the climate around that and what are you seeing online in terms of these shootings or these what appear to be targeting of democratic officials? or what appear to be targeting of democratic officials? >> what's interesting is this is a nonstop trend that continues to rise. we have been on air many times talking about this. wasn't. that years ago some of our

colleagues at msnbc news and msnbc that were targeted with what were essentially dysfunctional bombs, trying to scare people or intimidate them. this remind mess a lot of that. but with the current pattern we've seen targeting people based on some political motive or affiliation, way note we don't know the circumstances around this. could be this individual new each of the politicians. but that seems less likely than the obvious, which is if you go on social media any given day or even just watch your show, nicolle, at least once every few weeks we're talking about someone who's targeted for political motives or about a politician who's targeted their adversaries with hate speech or speech that demonizes them. the more you have people with outside influence talking about violence, the more violence you will see around the country. i think it's endemic of what we're seeing across the country, and not just across the country, right before this segment we were talking about brazil.

it is something where people learn from each other. the united states, we are seen as the leader politically. when we have things like january 6th unfold in this country, it's a contagion that happens inside our country and other country as well. >> i guess the "x" factor, what maybes us unique is access to guns. david jolly at the top of the hour with our access, easy access to weapon of war and this political climate. you're talk about, what are your concerns as you see both those dynamics on a collision course. >> two aspects to what we call this stocastic terrorism. two parts with the frequency and impacts. the frequency comes when you have the political leaders to supercharge their rhetoric and take that out on targets. it's everything from the

attempted kidnapping of gretchen whitmer to what we're seeing here today. separately, this is only possible because people have open access to targets and open access to weapons. >> clint watts on a story that will continue to monitor. thank you so much for joining us. quick break for us. we will be right back. we will be right back.

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the united states is taking a big and important step to aid ukraine in its efforts against

russia. on top of the $3 billion support package friday we understand as early as next week friday the pentagon will bring 100 ukrainian troops here in the u.s. in order to train them on the patriot missile defense system, a sophisticated bit of artillery meant to shoot down other missiles. given the urgency, the training will be on a compressed time line, months instead of a year, which is what's typical for american troops understood doing going that training. the ukrainians will train at ft. sill, a huge facility near oklahoma city. another crucial development as the war in ukraine draws closer to the one-year mark. another break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. and by switching, you could even save $652. thank you, liberty mutual. now, contestants ready? go! why? why?

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