>> i totally agree with that, and of course there is a kind of ideological component here. quickly, the biden economy looks different than the reagan economy, and has delivered different results. >> it's been very bottom of, one of the great stories here is that we've seen the fastest wage growth, those at the bottom in this recovery, these are people that have been losing for the last 40 years. that is great news. >> dean baker, always great to have your thoughts on, this we appreciated. >> thank you for hearing me out. >> before we, go a quick programming note, we are out with the 250th episode. i spoke to author and labor organizer about the need for prominent well traded skilled workforce to help -- prepare for the climate crisis, and build after climate this and all 250 episodes are online now. scan the qr code and you will be magically transported to it.

that is all in. >> a magical land of with pod you're like a wizard. >> that's what i am. thanks for joining us. it was june of 2022 and the venue for the conservative political action conference, cpac, venue was packed. hundreds of far right politicians and activists gathered to claim election fraud, the launch attacks against the president. donald trump was slated to give a talk on chinese election interference. jason miller was there, now ceo of the conservative twitter clone getter. also this attendance was republican mark green who voted against the certification of joe biden as president. and in a lot of ways this was just another cpac conference. the main difference was that this one was happening in

brazil. months before that country's presidential election. and all the false claims about election fraud, they were dubbed in portuguese. this is the extent to which the maga movement embedded itself in brazilian politics, a relationship now worth revisiting after they had their own january 6-asylumed attack. that maga connection began back in 2018 when the son of then presidential today bolsonaro reached out to steve bannon. he needed advice. he wanted to know how trump had made it to power and how his father could too. later that year when the elder bolsonaro won that election, he credited that win to donald trump and steve bannon. in fact when bolsonaro made his first trip to the u.s. as president, he made with steve bannon before he met with donald trump.

when those two leaders did eventually meet, trump and bolsonaro had lots of glowing things to say about one another and bolsonaro was happy to be called the donald trump of the tropics. to each his own. the relationship continued and it grew deeper. a few months after trump lost the 2020 election, eduardo bolsonaro attended a cybersecurity for him organized by mike lindell. the forum was supposed to show that the election was stolen by electronic voting machines. bolsonaro said his father had information about how hackers could get in to brazil electronic voting machines and claims with no proof were quickly shared all over social media including in brazil. after january 6 happened, bolsonaro was quoted in saying in reference to those rioters,

if it was organized, they would have taken the capitol and made demands. so its face, it sort of seemed like monday morning quarterbacking for an insurrection, but in practice january 6 might have actually provided a lesson for the bolsonaros. because when bolsonaro lost in october of 2022, he strategized. and eduardo immediately made trips to the u.s. and met in person with donald trump at mar-a-lago. this is one of those meetings. it took place in november of 2022 while bolsonaro was still contesting the results of the elections. you see eduardo sitting next to kari lake. around that time he also reportedly met with jason miller and with steve bannon. the dates here are important because while bolsonaro's son was in the u.s., back in brazil thousands of bolsonaro reporters were taking to the streets saying brazil was stolen. and they closed streets and

called for the military to intervene. when they were asked about their motives, someone said they wanted chaos and chaos is what they got. on sunday in a scene that had eerie parallels to our very own january 6, hundreds attacked the center of government in brazil's capital. they ransacked offices and common areas. the images are so similar to the ones from the capitol attack that at times it is hard to tell one from the other. and despite all the damage that has been done to brazilian democracy, trump and his allies keep at it. steve bannon said yesterday on his podcast that he was not backing off one inch on this thing. this thing being presumably brazil. or maybe the attempt to destroy democracies around the world. joining us here in the studio is international affairs analyst

for brazil's largest television network. thank you for being here. are we getting anything wrong about the connections that we outlined in that script between brazil and the far right in american politics? >> thanks for having me. it was perfect. there would not be trumpism in brazil if there were not one in united states. bolsonaro and his group tried to replicate in brazil what trump did in the united states. they are major friends of donald trump. they love trump. the son of bolsonaro has even like -- he wore a maga hat. so he came it to brazil. they want to do in brazil what trump did here. but the crazy thing is that

invasion of the capitol didn't work well, but they tried to do the same thing in brazil. >> sounds like they almost looked at it as like a workshop for what they ended up doing later, which was to have people camped out in front of the capitol, in front of the official buildings, demanding the justice that trump for example was never able to achieve effectively. i wonder when we talk about how this movement came to be in brazil, i think in america we have a hard time understanding the way we are actively exporting election fraud and election denialism and conspiracy theories. can you talk a little bit about what trump and what january 6 meant to brazil and how that unfolded in your country? >> a lot before because of what trump did on january 6, because of what he did after he lost to joe biden, they saw that in brazil and they wanted to do the same. after that, and even before, but after that, bolsonaro started talking about fraud, the ballots

that wouldn't work well, that you couldn't trust them. so he start to put this on the head and minds of some of his followers. not all of them. many of bolsonaro's supporters voted for him for different reasons. so it worked in a way because they really think that there was fraud and lula was not legally elected presidentlegitimately. >> had people been thinking about the concept of election fraud before it started becoming such a pervasive thing in the united states? is that something that was talked about in brazil prior to this? >> no, almost never. always the loser accepted the result. like lula lost three elections in the past. and the other -- the vice president lost to lula, he was a rival for lula in the past. and they always accepted the

results. different from the united states, you can count votes in a few hour, one person, one vote, who wins the popular vote is elected president. so it is easier in the u.s. so it is harder for bolsonaro to try to do what trump did in the u.s. >> people don't recognize -- to begin with, brazil is a younger democracy. we're always seen as the baby on the international stage, but really it is post 1985 that this democratic brazil exists. because of the history you guys have with autocracy, military rule, top down management as it were, do you think you're in a better position to battle this kind of misinformation, to battle this kind of push toward autocracy? >> it is different. >> or is it the opposite? >> in some ways it is better because brazil is not as polarized. it is a multipart system. you saw the result on monday are

even all together and walking from the presidential palace to the supreme court. in this way it is better. but as an institution, there are forces where the united states is stronger institution. >> when we talk about how to quash this, it is misinformation, the disinformation coming from the steve bannons, the cpacs, the international internet where conspiracy theories flourish, but it also sounds as it is in the united states that there are certain funders behind this, right? i did not know this. the people who encamped outside of the government buildings, outside of the army headquarters, saying that bolsonaro won the election, the people who were the acolytes effectively of the steve bannons and bolsonaros, they had, one of them, mr. rodriguez, according to the new york times, spent nine weeks sleeping in a tent on a narrow pad with his wife when he was provided a tour, it had

become a small village. it had showers, a laundry service, cellphone charging stations, a hospital, and 28 food stalls. this was not some ad hoc tent village. it sounds like there was funding behind this. what more do you know about the groups that may have been working to actively support bolsonaro's anti-democratic forces? >> the brazilian justice is investigating many companies, dozens of companies. we know some of them are linked to the business but not other sectors of the brazilian economy, and we can't generalize the agri businesslike some groups would be financing. but they are still beginning this investigation and we'll know who was behind that because there were people behind that for sure. >> when you talk abouting a gri business, is that largely the business that is intend on further developing brazil, parts

of the amazon? is that part of that? >> it is really strong in brazil different parts of brazil. it is the size of continental united states, so it is different agri business in different regions. so it depends on lot where we are talking about. but it is a huge sector in brazil and one of the most developed in the brazilian economy for sure. >> i know lula, the actually democratically elected leader, has mentioned agri business, they are intent on finding out who is financing this push toward anti-democratic forces and we'll be following the story there as we follow it here. thank you for your reporting and for your time. great to have you here. and now let's turn to a history professor at new york university and author of strongmen.

and thanks for joining us tonight as we contemplate what january 6 has done around the world. when you look at what happened in brazil, is this just on its face a zero copy of with a was done on january 6? >> no, it is not. i mean, you do have a playbook which is you want to discredit the idea of election integrity, and that is because, you know, both bolsonaro and trump had personality cults. and so if you lose, you want your leaders -- sorry, your followers to think that you've been -- that it has been rigged against you and it can continue to venerate you. and the other thing is you want to plant the idea that violence might be necessary to avenge you. and so bolsonaro back in june, he said stuff like if necessary we'll go to war. and so he set this up.

the fact that he wasn't there at the time because he went to florida, he was under investigation and he also -- for him to have participated in the ritual of handing over the presidential sash would have meant he would lose status with his followers. so that is the playbook. but this was very different because they did this on a sunday when -- at a time when everything was in recess, so nobody was there. yet they wanted to show it was much easier to breach the barrier, it was easier to trash the buildings because nobody was in there, and they wanted to show that the brazilian protestors can show they have force and they are a force to be reckoned with. >> what is the utility of -- i mean, so they are there to show they have power, to show they have force. sounds like they also wanted to

invite the military in, that the chaos was a prelude to the military takeover. in the same way -- i'd say on january 6 there was some hope that somehow trump would also call in the military and that by force they would both be kept in office. i guess i wonder when you look at that sort of inclination, in brazil it seems particularly potent given the fact that the military was ruling the government until just recently. >> this is a huge difference in that protestors were camped out in front of the military headquarters and they did instead want to -- they were hoping the military would have an intervention and bring their hero back. bolsonaro was in the army and the dictatorship only ended in 1985. and that is important because there are millions of brazilians

are still nostalgic and bolsonaro was their chief, but also millions know how tos were tortured and they were killed and disappeared. and if we want to look at why the lula government is showing exemplary strength in acting immediately to quell this, arresting 1500 people, investigating 100 companies that provided help to the protestors, you were talking about the big encampment, they might freeze the assets of 100 companies, these are things that didn't happen here but we don't have a past of a military dictatorship that started with a coup. there they know exactly what can happen if you don't nip it in the bud. >> and i guess it didn't all begin and end obviously on january 6, but it feels like there is this tide sweeping the globe, whether it is in hungary, whether in myanmar, brazil, whether right here at home in

america, forces of autocracy, anti-democratic movements seem to be spreading like a virus around the world. do you attribute that to one force or one catalyst in general? is itat trophy of our institutions? how do you explain how these forces are so potent around the world? >> it is a great question and it is all the things and i'd add democracy has -- democracies have perhaps taken their appeal for granted, and it is honestly, you know, the strongmen types who often come from -- they have media experience, mass communications experience, they are extremely skilled in using

emotions like trump and bowles their bolsonaro would tell their supporters they love them. trump did that on january 6, i love you. so they seem to be addressing the problems of a changing world. and one thing my research shows is that these kinds of strongmen and these kinds of authoritarian regimes have appeal when there is as has been a lot of change. you let same-sex marriage, you let women into military, so some love this, but others feel that they are losing their status. and there has been a lot of this in the world and that partly explains the appeal of the strongmen which is going strong. >> and let's talk about the idea that people are in search of a

paternalistic father figure. and not at the rest of the message. enough these men central to the message, but then this i love you, this attitude that you can seek safe harbor with me, that i care about you. what do you owe that to, is that people losing faith and community and not having institutions where they feel a part of something? what is that? >> it is partly that. loneliness is a huge issue today. i think disinformation has torn people apart. polarization tears people apart. and change, perception of change, you know, and what these guys do, they also create chaos and then they rise up and they say i alone can fix it. but they do use emotions very effectively, so on the one hand they are the protector, they are the defender of the nation, and

yet they also play the victim. and this is very important in both bolsonaro and trump, they all say they are the persecuted ones, there are witch hunts against them. when bolsonaro goes into the hospital because he was stabbed a few years ago, he broadcasts live video from his hospital room and he has his gown on, he's hooked up to monitors. so they are very, quote, trance transparent with their bodies. and so when they summon the faithful to save them, it is very -- it has an appeal. you saw these hardcore supporters camped out ready to save their hero. >> well, lessons from the authoritarian playbook. ruth, thanks for joining us tonight. we have much more ahead tonight. republicans have been in a

frenzy for the past 24 hours trying to draw similarities between the discovery of classified documents in a biden think tank and discovery of classified documents held at trump's private residence. but they might be kind of off in those comparisons. we'll tell you all about it coming up. and next, now that republicans officially control the house, what are they planning do with all their newfound power? zoe lofgren joins me to discuss. .

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have you brought with you some of those devices which would have enabled the cia to use this poison for killing people? when it fires it fires silently? >> almost silently, yes. >> but it strikes the target, does the target know that he's been hit and about to die? >> that depends, mr. chairman, on the particular dart used. >> that was idaho democratic senator frank church grilling

the cia director william colby about the cia's secret targeted assassination program. that hearing was one of several held by what is today known as the church committee, a special senate committee led by senator church in the '70s to investigate abuses of power by the intelligence community. there was a broad nonpartisan investigation that led to important revelations about the cia's covert operations which included assassinating foreign leaders and infiltrating civil rights groups and a bunch of other previously unknown activity. prior to those hearings, there was no senate intelligence committee. congress created that oversight bodies a direct result of the church committee's work. today house republicans are using the legacy of that important committee to justify their own attempts to investigate the investigations into former president trump. house republicans voted today along party lines to create what they are calling a new

church-style subcommittee to investigate the, quote, weaponization of the federal government. unlike the original church committee, this new effort by house republicans appears to have explicitly partisan goals. specifically undermining law enforcement investigations into january 6 and former president trump's mishandling of classified documents. and the committee has given itself broad powers. kevin mccarthy has reportedly agreed to give the committee at least as much funding and staff as the january 6 committee and the resolution also gives it the ability to collect information about ongoing criminal investigations. that means that republicans will seek unprecedented access to nonpublic information about the justice department's current cases involving the former president. that sort of examination effectively asking the doj to open up its books before any investigation is complete, that has not really happened before

because it could greatly compromise the department's work. law enforcement and intelligence agencies come and can commit abuses of power, but investigating a former president for his own clear abuses of power is not usually what we think of when we think of a rogue fbi or cia. so what should we expect from this new committee and how will congressional democrats respond? joining us now is california democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren, former member of the january 6 committee. great to see you. thanks in advance for your time. getting their paws into an open investigation seems deeply problematic here. what is your expect tags about how successful kevin mccarthy and his band of merry republicans will be in trying to get involved in the justice department's ongoing work? >> it is a huge concern.

to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a committee of the house that has been directed to interfere in ongoing criminal investigations being undertaken by the department of justice. that would be a first and it is highly improper. it is not the role of oversight. we oversee policy, do fact finding, but don't interfere in prosecutions. and further concern is it looks like the department of justice is maybe taking a look at least at one of the house members who had ad vow indicated for this committee as we know from his own report, representative scott perry had his phone seized. that only happened because a warrant was issued and a warrant is only issued if a judge finds probable cause that crime has

been committed and the evidence of that crime may be found on the object. so that he would think it would be appropriate for him to be involved in interfering of that investigation of himself is really absurd. and let's remember, quite a few of the republican members of congress who assumed the formation of this committee sought pardons from president trump. and i think many of us think that seeking a pardon is at least some evidence of indicia of guilt. so this is trouble from the beginning. >> you mentioned scott perry who has come up a lot in the context of january 6 and the plot to send fake slates of kree lectors to complicate the certification of election results. jim jordan, who may chair this, is someone who refused to cooperate with the january 6 committee. dan bishop, another name floated potentially to this on this panel voted against certifying

the election results. are they basically just trying to get a jump on potential indictments by looking at what the justice department is doing? it is hard for me to imagine how the doj cooperates with this at all and end up at the supreme court. do you see it going there? >> well, i never like to speculate as to what a fellow member of congress' motive is, but it looks to me like this is an effort to interfere with ongoing prosecutions. and the department of justice is likely not going to agree to that. and this i'm sure will be lit gated extensively. one of the things i learned in the january 6 committee is how long it can take to get resolution to these questions that revolve around which branch

of government has which rights. and so i think we will be in court for a long time. >> what about -- what do democrats do in terms of seats on this committee? a lot of people look at the republican in-trance againsts on the january 6 committee, the decision to not effectively participate with the exception of course of adam kinzinger and liz cheney basically labeled heretics inside the gop. but they were completely in the dark in large part as far as activities on the january 6 committee and there were a lot of explosive pieces of information that the american people saw unfiltered. i know that pete aguilar, one of the members of democratic leadership has suggested that democrats will be on all subcommittees. do democrats play ball and take seats on a committee that may have very questionable goals? >> i think it would be a huge

mistake not to take our seats at these subcommittees. or committee in the case of the china investigation. i'll tell you, i don't want to be on it. i've paid my dues through service on the january 6 committee and there are plenty of other able members of the judiciary committee. but i think that it would be a mistake even though it is a mistake to have the subcommittee, it would be an error for democrats not to participate and play our appropriate role of calling out what we see is going wrong. >> does the mere existence of this committee muddy the waters in terms of the work that the january 6 committee accomplished? just the fact that republicans will be able to cast aspersions on the work of the tireless investigators who worked to bring the truth to the american public? is the goal already met in some way? >> i don't think so. it is possible that is a motivation. but one of the this inks that

the committee did that i feel satisfied with, not only did we issue our report and appendixes, but all the footnotes address all of the evidence. republicans can say whatever they want to discredit it, but the news media and the public can go and read the original documents. they can look at the emails, they can look at the transcripts, they can look at -- listen to the radio traffic. and so it is not going to be possible just to effectively lie which i think may have been a goal of some of my colleagues. >> congresswoman lofgren, thank you for your time. and you can of course pick up a copy of the january 6 report at any reliable book seller near you or on the internet. >> and you can get it for free. >> download it if you want to use a lot of printer paper. always great to see you. thank you. coming up, the really big

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let's do a thought experiment. stay with me. let's say you had a job at the white house where you were in national security. you naturally had access to classified information in the course of doing your job at the white house. and then you either accidentally or intentionally took some classified documents home or maybe to another office. in one scenario, hundreds of classified documents were found. in the other about a dozen classified documents were found. putting the numbers aside, it turns out if both scenarios some of those documents included classified information about foreign intelligence. both scenarios are not good. those documents should have bean returned to the white house and sent to the national archives when your wok ended. but whether by accident or on purpose, it happened. now what? either the national archives realizes that some documents are missing and asks you to return them or a colleague discovers them in your office.

you have two choices if you find the documents yourself. you can tell the national archives or you can wait until the national archives comes to you to request them. you can voluntarily hand over the documents or you can ignore multiple requests, you can refuse to hand them over. and then you can then hand over some of them but not all of them and drag on the process for roughly a year and a half. and then you can continue to fight to give them back for so long that the fbi has to go to court to obtain a search warrant to execute on your home because you refuse to just give them back. which of course brings us to today's news that lawyer for president biden discovered a dozen classified documents dating from his time in the obama administration. the documents were found at november 2. attorney general merrick garland has assigned a u.s. attorney in chicago, one a pointed by donald trump, to investigate the

matter. president biden earlier this evening said that he was surprised to learn that there were any government records found there and that he and his office are cooperating fully. contrast that with former president trump where the national archives asked him multiple times for documents. trump strung them along for months. and in august the fbi took the extraordinary step of executing a search warrant on trump's florida home leading to investigations of possible obstruction, possible violations of the espionage act and destruction of records. again both situations are not great ones. but one of these things is not like the other. joining us now is an attorney who specializes in cases involving national security. mark, thanks for being here. are we right to draw a very broad distinction between what is happening in the biden case and what happened in the trump case?

>> you're not wrong at all and you laid out all of these facts. and you probably have to take up your whole program to indicate the differences that led to why the fbi had to execute a search warrant and why these two cases are not like one another. neither are good cases, but if president trump and his legal team had acted the way so far we've seen the biden team act, there would be no legal issues for donald trump. nobody would have said anything about it because it would have been looked at as not a good situation but frankly somewhat common place. not to the extent that it was, but mishandling of classified documents happens all the time, almost always administrative in nature. and it was only the specific facts in donald trump's case that you laid out with respect to obstruction in particular

involving himself personally, which we have no knowledge of with respect to biden so far, that is what makes the difference. >>. >> merrick garland has assigned an independent investigator to look into this. what is he examining? is he looking for intent? where does he start in a case like this? >> it is going to be fairly straightforward, though perhaps somewhat complicated because it was over a period of years. i guess 2017 when the files were placed there presumably. although they date back to 2013, so we don't know how they got in the box. but he will essentially try to trace back how did those files get in that folder mistakenly labeled personally items or intentionally labeled personal items, how did they get into the box, how did the box get into the locked closet, who had access to the locked closet, did

anyone have access to the box or file folder, was anything compromised. and, yes, it may even involve interviewing president biden to see what he may or may not know. publicly so far he said he doesn't know anything about this. it wouldn't surprise wait to s investigation goes. >> what makes it a crime? i assign intent is a part of it. is the number of records, sensitivity of the information, what are the thresholds here? >> so this is where law and policy and practice may all diverge. on its face, having a classified document at home, even if you want to look at a book like "no easy day" the book about bin laden being killed, there was supposedly classified information in that book. i have a copy. you can can still download a

wikileaks copy. that could be prosecutable but that is not what the government does as a policy or practice. the cases of mishandling classified information where people have been prosecuted have been egregious, voluminous amounts of pack rat hoarding type of situations. no espionage, no leaking to the media, just compiling all the documents. i had a client once who was prosecuted for it and it included documents that dated back to east germany in the '50s. the country doesn't even exist, but it was looked to be as willful that this person knew that they should not have the documents and not returned them. which again you contrast the two cases for trump and biden. >> mark, you know all about this stuff and when something smells fishy. thanks for your wisdom. >> thank you. and we have one more story to get to tonight.

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today marks the tenth day of the year 2023. but in pennsylvania, some people are still stuck in 2020. lycoming county is still doing a ballot recount. 5,000 people called for a recount. why? these folks were skeptical in a county with growing number of registered republicans somehow president biden performed better in 2020 than hillary clinton did in 2016. so county commissioners bowed to the pressure and they ordered a hand recount. as of last night all the mail-in and provisional ballots had been

counted and they started working through the in-person ballots. after checking more than 23,000 ballots, it looked for a minute as if it had found something, the count was off by five votes in one precinct. but it turns out the hand recounters had made a mistake. and the work checked and the numbers matched the original official results. with more than a third of the approximately 60,000 ballots counted on day one, this little recount could end as early as tomorrow. but now more than two years since the 2020 election, it is unclear just how much this recount will change any minds. for most of us it is the year 2023. but for some people, it will never stop being 2020. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow.