of are china's growing growth and human rights violations, their attitudes towards taiwan. look for that to be a clear area of focus. i close this morning with employment of mike gallagher chairman of the economy means house republicans have five committee chairmans named mike and only three who are women. >> five named mike. leave it there. publisher for axios nick johnson. thank you for sharing that news. the rest of us, i'm sure, want to make of it. and thanks for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> ah -- if my old office -- >> in a shoebox by the golf course. >> in a birthday card from mama. >> where are your classified documents? >> thrown in the kitty litter. happy birthday betsy ross.

>> presidential trapper. >> available at walgreens. some republicans are jumping on the discovery of classified documents at president biden's private office, equating it to former president trump's large stash of government material stored at mar-a-lago. apples to oranges, really. we're going to go through the differences and play for you president biden's first comments on the matter. house republicans creating a special committee for gop grievances and what they call the weaponization of government. >> what could possibly go wrong for republicans there? >> yeah. meanwhile, a republican lawmakers calling out her own party for being tone death on the re-elections. plus a significant

development. dozens of soldiers coming to the u.s. for weapons training. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, january 11th. go to have you with us. we have san sfrin politico and host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico jonathan lemire. >> by the way, shock. this is not something you should know. i don't obsess on something over and over, willie, but i understand that if you take out the hound dogs that were watching the game, in rural georgia, it was the lowest rated college football championship in the history of -- that's all on the committee. it's all on the committee. they had a team with tcu, lost final game of the year to kansas state. and what did they expect would happen? >> yeah. 65-7 does that to ratings.

turn it off at half time game. 35-7. obviously, alabama, ohio state, somebody else there, closer and more would have watch are watched. to your point, tcu did taj to smaller teams going forward. comes down to it in choice next time, well, smaller school or team from a different conference, had a great season, but remember tcu? i think alabama or tennessee or one of those schools gets the nod next time. that bad. 65-7. >> and how do you compare two last-second losses -- not that seim staying on this, but how do you compare two last-second losses at lsu and tennessee to a loss against kansas state where you basically -- i mean, again, you're right. they've done a lot of damage to small conference teams. so, anyway -- >> they will expand it in a couple years, joe.

like we said yesterday, you'll get alabama and all of those teams in it and a tale like tsu, deserves to be in a larger playoff probably will get their shot. maybe pull a couple upsets and go all the way. >> listen, over/under. two red sox here.er jonathan le sam stein, red sox losses at 93. over or under? >> slight over. yesterday more devastating news for red sox fans. trevor story, who we knew had an elbow issue when they signed him for a massive contract a while ago. guess what? it needs surgery and he's going to miss at least half of this upcoming season's joe, if only we had another shortstop on the team last year, who could have played up the middle. slide the story over, can't do that anymore. lineup looks like -- i mean, a aaa squad and pitching looks

worse. yeah. take the over on 90-odd losses. >> sam stein, over also. right? >> well two things. one, depends. will carlos correa actually sign totally unrelated, let the alabama stuff go, joe. it's okay. there's always next year. >> i need to be mindful. acceptance. right? >> that's what you need, in every way. okay. let's get to the news. house republicans yesterday approved a resolution to create a new select committee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government. the subcommittee approved on a party-line vote and we'll have open-ended jurisdiction to scrutinize any issue represented to civil liberties or to examine how any agency within the federal government has collected, analyzed and used information about americans. republican jim jordan of ohio

will chair the subcommittee with authorities to obtain some of the most sensitive secrets in the government including information about covert actions. >> no. no, no, no, no. >> jordan says his goal not to target democrats or law enforcement officer whose have scrutinized former president trump. >> yes, it is. >> but to protect -- >> this is all, willie, again, i just -- i don't know when the republican party became the stupid party, but they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. passing legislation in the first days, resolutions that will hurt them two years from now and here should be putting donald trump behind them, they are literally declaring war on the fbi, on the intel committees, on -- on -- on everything else. just because of donald trump. if donald trump said some --

some agency was bad, because, well, he ran afoul of their rules or laws, you know, donald trump wants these republicans to go after them and thir going to go after them. this is the same thing durham did. made a fool of himself. he made a fool -- he wrecked an otherwise stellar career, because he followed these rabbit trails that ended up in the fevered swamp of maggot extremism, and now these republicans are going to do it again, and again, i'm not upset about it. i mean -- maga extremists need to keep losing elections, and this is sure to do it. they're just damaging themselves. >> astonishing, isn't it? one of their first acts in the new congress is to pledge allegiance to donald trump again. this is payback for the fbi executed a legal search warrant add mar-a-lago because more than 100 classified documents were found there. they had to go in because of

obstruction preventing them from being returned to the national archives. they're mad at the fbi for going to mar-a-lago to get those classified documents among other things and now saying we are going to pick this new congress, this new power we have and make it about donald trump. by the way, members of the house democratic leadership say they will not prevent their members from being seated on that committee. so -- could have some, at least, slight bipartisanship there. bring in congressional investigation the reporter for "the washington post," jackie alamein. what will be the first order of business for this so-called committee? >> willie, while the mission, the stated mission, of this subcommittee is quite ambitious, how it's actually going to work in practice has still yet to be seen. jim jordan has made clear both publicly and privately that this is -- in essence, a part of the

pattern of house gop lawmakers investigating the investigators, and so as you noted, the jurisdiction's extremely broad and widesweeping and can touch a number of topics but seems priority initially looking at ongoing department of justice investigations. eve in cases where there's conflicts of interest. you've heard people like congressman scott perry over the weekend says he wants to and would not recuse himself from sitting on this committee even if it investigates the january 6th investigation that the department of justice is currently investigating scott perry for. so there's going to be a litany of issues that they're going to focus on, but the big question remains is, you know, are they actually going to get access to this information? as established by the linder letter, really, a long-standing practice by the department of justice to refuse to comment on ongoing department of justice

investigations. this could set the stage for a big legal fight over congressional authorities and oversight power. >> and sam stein, do they really have the power to go in and look at their own investigations? criminal probes against republicans that are ongoing right now? do they really have the right? some of the most extreme crackpots, do they really have a right to look at intel information, top-secret, classified intel information that for years only the top eight intel officials on capitol hill, members, have been able to look at? i can't imagine that the white house, that the senate, that others are going to sit back and let these people destroy american intelligence agencies, destroy the fbi, harm our national security, because they've got a grudge in the name of donald trump? >> i mean, jackie's absolutely

right. a longstanding policy at doj, not discloing any intel relating to a federal investigation. it's almost impossible to negotiate how they would somehow reverse congress under a new congress, a slim majority, where there are clear conflicts going on now because some of the members of that republican majority are under investigation. completely compromise the investigation, i would argue. doesn't mean they won't test the theory. right? push, push and push, you can see a future in which they try to litigate this in the court system. the congressional right to oversight here. versus the doj's prerogatives in their investigations. but this also raises some clear questions about motivations for the members of congress and to your point whether this is done at behest of party leader donald trump and other meshes under investigation. it's going to be a fascinating

couple months. i guess. but ultimately, you can -- you see a future in which this is ground to a halt because doj will say -- >> this is, again a republican party once again not reading the room. by the room, i mean the united states of america! not reading the american voters, who rejected them in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2022, and now they're going -- to try to politicize intelligence? they're going to try to get top-secret, classified documents, and -- and we trust these people? they're going -- to war against the fbi? they're attacking the pentagon, attacking or top-ranked military officers? it's a -- it's a -- when are they going to ever learn?

really, the political stupidity here. the political malpractice continues, and i know there are a lot of former republicans like me that say, this is really bad. america needs a competent conservative party, and instead we just have these idiots running around trying to attack the military. trying to attack our intel services. trying to destroy the fbi. >> there's a long history, you pointed out, this week of this not turning out well for democrats or republicans. going after the military, going after the fbi. going after the intelligence agencies, which are popular with the american people. and now doing this in the defense of donald trump, whose lost them a whole bunch of elections. jackie pounts out in her oiler calling it the tinfoil hat -- and president biden says he's cooperating fully with review into how classified documents from the obama administration ended up in an office used after

his time at vice president. speaking the president commented for the first time since the probe of details came to light. >> people know i take classified documents, classified information seriously. i was briefed about this discovery and surprised to learn there are any government records that were taken there to that office. but i don't know what's in the documents. my lawyers have not suggested i ask what documents they were and we're cooperating fully. cooperating fully with the review, in which i hope will be finished soon and there will be more detail at that time. >> two sources fan with the matter tell nbc news it be president biden's kernel lawy lawyers discovered this at penn center in washington november 2nd immediately after the white house notified the department of justice and the national archives and turned over the

documents the next day. since then sources say a trump-appointed u.s. attorney has been reviewing the matter for the department of justice and attorney general merrick garland briefed on preliminary findings. now up to garland whether or not to open a criminal investigation into discovery. when asked why not disclosed sooner, wrote in a statement, "this is an ongoing process under review by doj we'll be limited what we can say at this time. we are committed to doing this the right way and will provide further details when if is appropriate." so, mika, obviously comparisons drawn by many republicans to donald trump's documents at mar-a-lago. obviously, vast differences there, but the department of justice and the fbi are looking into this matter and have been for early months now. >> right. immediate opportunity for it republicans to pounce.

so let's take a look how the situation compares to the classified documents case involving former president donald trump. trump as you may recall is under federal investigation after an fbi search of his florida home and resort reportedly turned up more than 160 classified documents. 60 of which were top secret. in the biden case, fewer than a dozen documents were reportedly found. some of which were marked top-secret. in the trump probe, the fbi carried out its search after the former president ignored a federal subpoena and refused multiple requests to have the documents returned. >> ignored the subpoenas, refused to return the documents. refused to cooperate with the doj. >> in the biden situation, the documents were not even the subject of a national archives inquiry, but the white house still turned them over the day

after they were found. that means had biden's team not contacted federal agencies themselves, the national archives would likely still not even know any documents were missing. it is also worth noting -- >> whereas trump kept being contacted by doj and the fbi. >> and had them hidden in a storage room, that club, mar-a-lago. >> they lied to the doj, trump did, lied repeat think to try to keep the documents. you're saying, this is interesting, the biden team found it and immediately contacted doj and turned it over the next day. >> yes. >> ah! some would say apples and oranges. >> it's worth noting shortly after trump was ordered to turn over the documents, security cameras at mar-a-lago reportedly captured his team moving them -- >> uh-huh.

>> -- from one location to another. >> another example. jonathan lemire. again, i understand that the republicans who think that their supporters and voters are stupid, and that makes me sad. makes me sad that they think so little of their supporters and voters that they think they can be swept up in stupidity, when, in fact, is that comparing somebody who burns down a house. let me, for the slower members of congress, that don't know who i'm talking about, donald trump, with somebody who caused smoke damage on wallpaper, because they lit a fire and forgot to close the flew. this is apples and oranges. >> whataboutism with this one, joe.

no question, the documents shouldn't have been there, investigated appropriately. justice department involved. the differences are stark and many. remember, if donald trump had done the same, reported to the national archives, hey, we have these documents. not sure who should have them and returned them he would not face any legal issue either. or, if he simply had returned them when he was first asked to do so, this also would have been also very little chance of it being a legal issue for him down the road either. that's how this works. it is as -- read this here from andrew weissmann. it's not a crime to accidentally take documents if upon learning you have the documents, you return them. no crime. we know that's not what trump did. lied about attorneys working for him. lied about the documents being moved around. fought the extradition of the documents for months and months and months, and that is why this case is so different. the biden team self-reported. they handed them over.

they're cooperating with the investigation. trump did none of that. now, of course, there are politics here. it has handed republican as talking point. dishonest one but a talking point all the same. we're going to try to hear the equivalence between these two moments, perhaps this make's merrick garland's job harder bringing a case against donald trump but the two cases are not the same, no the even close. >> we've seen, why, let me recount the years that did no good. 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022. lie all they want to people watching their shows listening to their podcasts reading their blos or whatever they're doing. it does matter. americans, the swing voters, the independents, are on to this.

i've heart merrick garland. makes his job tougher because of politics -- no. it really doesn't. listen if joe biden comitted a crime, charge him! if donald trump comitted a crime, charge him! that's pretty simple. guess what? joe biden didn't commit a crime. they found the documents, turned them back. donald trump most likely did commit a crime, and it's straightforward. so if merrick garland or anybody, the doj, wringing their hands, they're not just doing a disservice to america. they're doing a disservice to justice. they're doing a disservice to the rule of law, if they in any way are distracted by this ground noise. again, let me say, if in their investigation of joe biden they find anything illegal, charge him. we're a nation of laws. not a nation of rulers that are

above the law. i mow donald trump thinks he is. he's not. the thing is biden's people found it. they immediately self-reported. turned them in the next day. donald trump lied repeatedly to the fbi. lied to the doj. withheld documents, when he knew it was part of an ongoing inquiry. again, really, i don't want to hear anybody from the doj saying, oh, well, this makes it harder for us to actually administer justice. >> actually the opposite. >> politics here. justice here. okay? bring just is. prove that no man is above the law. >> let's bring in political investigations reporter for "the guardian" hugo. you've been following this. i mean, the differences between the biden documents and the trump documents are pretty stark, but where do we stand in the mar-a-lago documents investigation? >> well, you know, the documents investigation at least for trump

is continuing at a pretty fast clip. you know, the lawyers for the department and lawyers for trump were in federal cost last week, actually, to try to find a way forward on a number of issues including a contempt motion as well as whether the justice department will be able to get the names of the people that conducted a second search of trump's properties at end of last year and found a number of additional classified documents. the justice department won that fight and according to our reporting the justice department wants to question the people that did the search, because they're not as independent, i think, as the trump team first made them out to be. sounds like actually people who are part of an entity trump already knew, and were close with, and so the justice department i think wants to question them to figure out if there's a pattern or further pattern of obstructive behavior. >> jackie, on your beat interesting to see how

republicans are handling this. james comer saying how ironic. james comer, head of the oversight committee, goes on to criticize joe biden for he says doing the same. we just laid out why they're not the same. what kind of hay are republicans going to make out of this on capitol hill? >> willie, well, other than the term "apples and oranges" as mika succinctly said, the term, knowing and willfully" leer is the other key phrase. this is something that republicans are conveniently skipping over. just a few months ago james comer says investigating the justice department's investigation into trump's mishandling would not about priority for his oversight committee, but despite our sourcing telling us that essentially joe biden handled this in the textbook way to

handle a case like this, and versus trump's deliberate knowing and willful mishandling of these documents, that is not something we're hearing from republicans. people close to trump's legal team have also told me that they are hoping that this causes the justice department to at least pause their sort of pointing out this false equivalency here saying it's not even about the classified documents, end of the day. that it's about the double standard and the way the, in the justice department's treatment, adversarial treatment against donald trump. a range of excuses but important to keep in mind the facts this is materially different. just to get a little into the weeds here, because this is not something you'll hear from gop lawmakers, but i think really important for the american public to understand, especially if there ultimately is some indictment dropped for donald

trump on this criminal investigation ongoing, aside from the volume, the intent, the fact that, you know, the justice department repeatedly tried to get these classified, this classified information back from the former president, even the content of these classified documents are different. joe biden took around 10 to 12 documents that were just, that were, yes, top-secret, but secure compartmentalized information, versus the former president who had special access programs, which in plain man's terns means a very, very small amount of people have access to these it documents. there is a distinction here, and i just hope that you can pay attention to these differences. >> i mean, it's just massive. you know, the thing is, i see this all as very clarifying, sam stein. i think the republicans early on, why they're doing this all a

disservice, letting us know, you know -- they're going to let the richest billionaires and multi-national corporations, they're going to try to let them cheat on their taxes, pay even less taxes. make the debt go up. the debt by over $100 billion according to cbo and look at -- of course, continue to attack the united states military and fbi and here a guy head of the oversight committee,talking abo. he deliberately lied. told a lie he knew was a lie, the people he told the lie to was a lie and all voters knew was a lie. he said, donald trump mistakenly took some documents that were apparently classclassified -- ts no mistake there. >> yeah. >> and the congressman knows that that's a lie. he knows that he's lying to his constituents. he knows that he's lying to the

press. he knows that he's lying to the american people, and he's saying that donald trump mistakenly took these documents that were apparently classified? he knew exactly what he was doing. i just think, and i think that the next head of the house oversight committee has done us all a great service by just showing he'll gladly lie for donald trump and tell lies that he knows are lies. >> well, there's another way to look at it, too, which is that, you know, trump's lingers presence. residual actions taken since he left office to a certain degree hampered the current republican congress. not just electorally. could have won more seats potentially had it not been for trump but the oversight they can conduct. there are legitimate reasons for republicans to ask what those documents were doing at the penn biden center, even if you think completely innocuous thing that president biden, then vice

president biden did, but they can't really investigate at least aggressively without inviting incredible charges of hypocrisy or covering up a far worse seemingly action that president trump took. this is again, one more example how trump's presence on the landscape really does linger. the other thing that strikes me, i guess i address this to hugo, to your expertise here. the common refrain you hear from republicans now when you say, ah, apples and oranges. yeah. apples and arranges. donald trump have authority, ability, legal rye to declassify every single document. he did. there's no evidence that he did. then vice president biden lacked that authority and therefore it's worse. their argument. curious. is that actually true? what are the legal bases for such a claim? >> yeah. that's not exactly right. actually the vice president himself is an original

classification authority. so depending on the kinds of documents at the penn biden center, there is scope for the vice president effectively to say these classified documents, the authority rests with me. so i can change that authority. then certainly i think in this instance even if it were the case, the classified nature of the documents repeatedly said in the trump documents investigation don't matter whether or not this is a crime. things that matter if it was a crime is what the department called aggravating factors.ing . inten mishandles, obstruct justice, third disloyalty to the united states and fourth, if there's a vast quantity of classified materials to draw an inference to suggest potential misconduct. trump needs two out of four at least of those aggravating factors in a way biden needs none. i think that's a really important distinction the justice department is examining

now when it decides, is there scope to appoint a special counsel for the biden documents case? probably not. opposed to the trump documents case, a probable cause a crime has been committed. >> these people apologizing for donald trump, trying to muddy things up, mika. >> i mean -- this is -- >> it's already been disproven before. i guess they want to keep losing. they're addicted to losing so keep telling lies, but we've already been through this. just because donald trump clicks his movie slippers together three times and wishes it to be true doesn't mean it's true. a president can't just think in his mind, as donald trump suggested, that documents no longer is classified. and that makes it -- not classified. >> and hide it and move it. >> no. again -- >> ignore subpoenas.

>> we had this debate months ago. so that argument, this is going to shock you from trump supporters, is not in good faith. >> thank you both very much for your reporting. and willie, i must say, follow-up on something sam stein said before and it's so true and we've talked about the first 30 minutes of this show. you have a republican party that keeps losing elections. they lost in '17, '18, '19, '20 and '22 because of donald trump. the last thing they need to do is embrace donald trump. they need to move forward. they need -- they should have been talking about policies this first week instead of, like, these -- these attacks against the united states military slashing think budget. attacks against the intel community. attacks against fbi. but -- but donald trump is still -- i'll be polite because

it's breakfast time for many across the east coast -- donald trump is still this foreign object in the punch bowl, and -- >> a floater, of sorts. >> yes. >> there is a floater. they need to get somebody to get a big ladle. >> okay. >> and scoop it out. >> oh, no. >> it's differ than a ladle. it's more like -- fork lift. >> they need to move forward. >> breaking news. stop on the analogy. willie, breaking news? bring us up to date on it. >> a big story. the faa grounded all american flights. everything in the united states right now has been stopped due to a system outage. accord og to an faa advisory the outage affects what is known as the notice to air mission system. that system relays point time sensitive information to pilots in airports across north america. until they get that back up and the running no planes are flying in the united states of america.

there's no estimated time as of this moment for restoration. we, of course, will let you know soon as we get news on this, but obviously, this is setting up now to be a very messy day if you're traveling by air. >> so we will be following this. >> yes. so alex, what's our source on that? >> we are -- >> you know what? alex? >> it's the faa. >> the faa. >> oh, just a report actually from the faa. and no cause -- okay. we -- we'll make phone calls and hopefully get information on the other side. >> definitely. coming up on "morning joe," a busy morning ahead already planned. joined by two new york democrats who filed an ethics committee complaint yesterday against republican congressman george santos. plus the latest from brazil. arrest of two top security officials on the heels of sunday's massive protests. also this morning, a republican congresswoman is criticizing her own party over

abortion legislation the house is expected to vote on today. we'll show you those new remarks. and an update on damar hamlin's condition after being moved to a hospital in buffalo. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hey, man. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪

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♪♪ so, again, this from the faa, working to restore its notice to air mission system performing, the faa says final validation checks and reloading the system now. we will provide frequent updates. >> all u.s. flights grounded.

>> trying to restart the system and apparently this notice to air mission system updates regularly. talks about everything from airport closings to weather situations, to any possible hazards. large or small, that may be along the route for international flights, sometimes you can have 200 pages of information that these pilots will have as it just keeps coming and updates, again, everything that might be in a particular flight's path. right now, though, that system is shut down, and it says, again, the faa says nine minutes ago we are performing final validation checks and reloading the system now. what do we got -- no word how long it will be before reloaded. a lot of questions obviously will be raised that need to be answered. how in the world this could happen and whether the system was hacked or just old technology that needs to be

updated. >> for now the faa grounded all u.s. flights. all of them, and we will keep you posted and stay on this. other news we're following, donald trump's longtime adviser allen weisselberg sentenced. the 75-year-old sentenced for dodging taxes on $1.7 million in job perks after pleading guilty to multiple tax crimes. he also paid over $2 million in taxes and penalties and will be on probation for five years. weisselberg immediately taken to new york's rikers island prison and after the proceeding likely to serve 100 days in jail with time off for good behavior. and resuming a journey to georgia after stuck on a train 30 hours with limited supplies of food.

the train left wharton, virginia, went and supposed to reach its destination yesterday. the passenger car was foreed to forced to stop. and passenger hs to wait for a new crew to arrive. the trip, 30 hours sitting on that train. all right. the "new york times" says political columnist blake houndshell has died police investigating his death as a suicide and the family release add statement, blake suddenly died after a long and courageous battle with depression. he was an influential political journalist who penned the times on politics newsletter covering topics sump as the republican party to win gen z voters,

fallout of the collapse of sam bankman-fried's ftx ra seim and the battle to elect kevin mccarthy as speaker of the house. previously he worked as managingered ter at politico and he was 44 years old, which brings us to the issue of depression and mental health, and feels like a good time just to say to all viewers and everybody in the "morning joe" community, if you're struggling with suicidal thoughts or no someone who is, reach out to the national suicide hot line set up. it is 988. this is becoming an increasing problem across the country. especially with young people getting out of the covid pandemic and dealing with all sorts of anxiety. mental health is real. and i had an incredible conversation with hugh jackman about it, who has a movie out

about a family struggling with mental health of their son. it is something that -- you sometimes can't see if someone. >> the mental health was a crisis before the pandemic came along and it just got so much worse and, again, we don't, so often we don't understand what other people are struggling with, and here such a gifted editor. look at tributes that came in yesterday after news of his passing, and so many reporters were touched, and impacted, influenced and shaped by blake's life, and sam stein, you knew him quite well as a good friend and a colleague. >> yeah. blake hired me at politico. a friend, a mentor.

incredible colleague. he radiated ideas. he was everything that was great about this profession. he loved being a journalist. he loved stirring up trouble. he loved building products. he loved building stories. he was a mensch. he was somebody you could go to when you were struggling. just the absolute epitome of an editor. someone you knew you could turn to in good times and bad. so difficult to process, for me and for everyone else whose lives he touched, is that someone this brilliant, creative, thoughtful and caring was so obviously struggling on his own, and, you know, obviously that's not uncommon with cases of depression, but it makes you hurt for them and makes you wonder if you could have done more, and i miss him terribly. i do. >> and it is -- >> thank you, sam. >> and it is a personal battle.

so many people face on their own, and the family's statement i thought was so important when they said, he passed after a long struggle with depression. so many people that struggle with depression, anxiety. suicidal ideations, and they carry that through them today, and how they look on the outside sometimes can -- can really -- be -- something quite different than how they're feeling on the inside, and here we had -- just an extraordinarily gifted editor, journalist, and, again a guy that people who worked with just absolutely loved. i'll say something else, jonathan lemire, too. he was a real trend setter in that this guy had been working on political newsletters and shaping political newsletters

and shaping these great new products. everybody has a newsletter now, it seems, but -- but, in fact, you can go back 15 years, and he was perfecting the form back then, and just kept moving forward, and was just a real trendsetter. >> yeah. ahead of his time in many ways, and i knew blake as well. not as well as sam, who spoke wonderfully just now about him, but he was such a smart guy. creative and thoughtful. and kind. a friend, he always, our colleagues today talking how he's always lend an ear for them when they had troubles, when he had issues. of course, so many of us wish woe could have done more for him. he was a good guy. aeditor. committed to making a story better and a loving father. such a terrible loss today and of course our thoughts and prayers are with his family. >> yeah, guys. i didn't have the good fortune

or knowing or working with blake but read him and admired his life a long time and mostly thought of his two children and his wife are and hearing it in sam's voice. we work in families that are second families. in a newsroom, a newspaper, digital outlet, at nbc news, you work with a group of team and that becomes your family, share with them nothing to do with work, go to lunch, have a drink with them. you lose a member of your family in this way it's devastating. i'm thinking about blake's family and also thinking about people like sam and his work family as well. >> yeah. he was one of us. coming up, a pair of brazilian security officials are being accused of colluding with the mob that breached several government buildings in the capitol. the latest on the arrests made there. plus our next guest says

social media shares some of the blame for the riots. we explain, next on "morning joe." in, next on "morning joe." - how'd you get here? - kayak! they compared hundreds of travel sites to find a great deal on my flight, car and hotel. [hissing] - kayak. search one and done. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health. ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein.

just look around. and this digital ageomplete we're living in, it's pretty unbelievable. problem is, not everyone's fully living in it. nobody should have to take a class or fill out a medical form on public wifi with a screen the size of your hand. home internet shouldn't be a luxury. everyone should have it and now a lot more people can. so let's go. the digital age is waiting.

52 part the hour. in brazil we are learning more about the consequences for those allegedly involved in enabling sunday's riots. "the washington post" reports a jump on brazil's supreme court ordered arrests of two capitol security official it's. both the public security secretary for the district of brasilia and the commander of the district's military police are accused of colluding with the rioters who occupied and vandalized the buildings on sunday. brazil's communications secretary said yesterday the government now believes a significant portion of the security forces present on sunday were in collusion with the rioters. joining us now, technology columnist for bloomberg opinion, whose latest piece is entitled "social media firms fail once again in brazil."

and you write in part "as brazil picked up the pieces on monday from the damage caused by supporters of ex-president jair bolsonaro had was lard not to see the echoes of the january 6, 2021 insurrection at the u.s. capitol. not the least because both incidents were stoked by activity on social media. brazilian users of meta's whatsapp as well as telegram and tiktok saw a surge in calls to attend a war cry party in the capital in the run-up to sunday's violence in brasilia. even ahead of that, twitter, facebook and whatsapp had been flooded with misinformation about the integrity of brazil's vote." >> so it appears what happened in the united states happened in brazil. i guess the question is, with social media companies knowing

that they had a hand in organizing the riots on january the 6th, why weren't they more on alert in the leadup to the riots in brazil? >> this is an ongoing problem that a lot of analysts who study misinformation on social media have been complaining about for a long time. that facebook and twitter are very good at, they've become very good at flagging misinformation for u.s. users. for example, there were several studies that actually showed that ahead of the u.s. midterms these companies did really well stoppingcoordinated fake bots trying to influence the u.s. elections. the same just isn't true outside of the u.s. there is a disconnect. there is an under investment in trying to tackle these same problems in other countries like india, like brazil. content, for example, that stays up in spanish and in portuguese

taken down in english. there isn't that same kind of effort to moderate and stop this violent rhetoric from percolating on these different platforms. it's not just facebook. it's not just twitter. it's whatsapp one of the most popular messaging apps and apps generally in brazil. it's ow families and's friends stay in touch. how people stay in touch with businesses. this is how a lot of the election denialism gained a main street foothold in brazil. lots of people joined these whatsapp groups full of so-called bolsonaroistas, joining the narrative and gained much more of a form of popular interest among the people there. >> good morning. obviously a lot of people two years on saw parallels in what happened in brazil with january 6th here in this country.

did you see some of that online as well? i looked at rhetoric used, talking about patriots, freedom fighters and all the things we heard around and up to january 6th? was there some learning from the american experience from the people who took the capitol in brazil? >> yeah, yeah. i've been speaking to people who, again, who track these different communities, the election denial communities in the u.s. and they say that these groups online have been watching what's happening in brazil, sharing footage about it, and kind of learning from what's happening over there to improve their own strategies, and you're absolutely right. some of the words that were used ahead of january 6th, words like "patriots." "traitors" another one also used in brazil. even english language hash tags like #stopthesteal was trending in brazil. these calls to action invoking use of the brazilian flag, just

like the u.s. flag. so people who are watching this saying there's a lot of cross-overbetween the communities. not just in brazil. seeing it in elections in france, in australia. kind of becoming a global trend almost. >> and unfortunately, as you said, they're using donald trump's #stopthesteal hashtag. >> here we go. >> no doubt, january 6 played a big role in these riots? right? >> yeah. i mean, it's hard to say what caused the other. you know, one thing that's similar, similar to the fact that donald trump complained about the integrity of election, bolsonaro himself also laid a lot of the groundwork for this by complaining about the stolen election himself. i think when a head of state is pushing this kind of narrative, i mean, admittedly, this makes it very difficult for social media companies to step in and try and stop. it really hinders their own

efforts to stop these rumors and viral content from carrying on and just spinning out of control. one of the things that whatsapp has tried doing is limiting the amount of times people can share a viral video. but still, the companies need to do more. it's very tricky for whatsapp, because it's a private encrypted app. they can't see the content. they can't tell if it's fake or real news. all they can do is try to put in these little flags, little features saying, for example, this particular video has been forwarded many times, and that might be a red flag to rezip recipient. might be a rumor. i should check it out. there's going to be more these companies can do particularly outside the u.s. and international countries to stop the rumors from going viral and becoming violent. >> all right. technology columnist for bloomberg insider thank you very much. and we're still following

before we go to break the breaking news. the faa has grounded all u.s. flights right now. flights are being canceled prit and left. our flights just got canceled. getting texts from all of my colleagues who are -- stranded at different airports across the country. >> yeah. >> the faa made this decision due to a system outage that they are trying to rectify. we will keep you posted. "morning joe" will be right back. elief i need. blue-emu, it works fast and you won't stink.

it is the top of the hour and we continue to follow a major developing story this morning. hundreds of planes across the u.s. are grounded right now, because of an issue with a

critical system for the faa. the agency says its notice to air mission system failed which updates essential information for flight operations. according to online flight tracker flightaware about 760 flights within, into and out of the u.s. are delayed. around 90 flights are listed as canceled. the faa says technicians are currently working to restore the system, and there is no estimate for restoration of service at this time, but we are seeing in realtime cancellations happening, and probably a lot of chaos for anybody who is trying to make a flight today. >> and unfortunately faa hasn't updated this information in 31 minutes. 31 minutes ago said working to restore the notice to air mission system performing final validation checks and reloading the system. and then said we'll provide frequent updates as we make progress.

that was 31 minutes ago, and, of course, i don't have to tell anybody that's traveled, certainly don't have the to tell anybody that is well versed on, as we look at l.a.x., that's well versed on the u.s. aviation system. every minute that goes by between 6:00 and 7:00, 6:00 and 8:00, 9:00, creating a cascading effect that causes chaos throughout the day. bring in right now a guy who knows a heck of a lot about the faa and system, steve rattner. obviously, experienced pilot. flying for a very long time. steve, let's first ask, give us background on the notice to air mission system. what is this system that apparently has melted down right now? >> yeah. so this is not the main air traffic control system in which planes talk to controllers on the ground or get instructions, this way, that way, land or take off. this is, i don't want to call a little piece.

it's a critical piece of a system in which pilots receive updates on important information they should know about weather, about runway closings, about airport changes, about this or that. used to be called notice to airmen in the modern air now notice to air missions, have a a vernacular. without those notices available to pilots for last-minute announcements that may affect their flight they had to shut down the entire system. >> i understand these warnings so detailed down to possible hazards from birds around airports. it is, for international flights, apparently, notices can run dozens of pages maybe in the hundreds of pages. let me just ask you, steve. you know the system pretty darn well. how in the world could such a key component of america's faa

system just go down without any backups at all? >> it's pretty incredible. i can't tell you i know exactly how it could happen, but i can put a little bit of context in it. the faa has been trying to modernize its air traffic control system including this component for years and years into something called next gen, and next gen air traffic control and it's been a modernization process that's, in classic washington terms, bogged down by funding issues, by congressional oversight and by the faa itself having trouble rolling all of this out, and we would have -- we have a completely antiquated air traffic control system. not just with respect to these no-tams or notice to air missions but how we move planes around the skies, how we control them. done more as les the same way done when i started flying 30 years ago and it comes at great cost in fuel and efficiency by

forcing planes to take longer routes than they need to. it's really, it's really an embarrassment, actually, that we still have a system like this. so while i don't know the details of this particular failure, it's entirely possible it is all linked into this general antiquated nature of our air traffic control systems. >> steve, what about planes already in the air right now? thinking about red eyes? maybe from the west coast into new york? planes coming in from europe, international flights. will they have to circle, be diverted? what happens to those planes today? >> i think what they will do, they obviously have to get out of the sky. what you can do, the no-tams are not that frequent and not that long. the critical because you never know when there might be one, but normally pretty short or even non-existent for a given airport or a given flight. so my guess is what they will simply do is read to the pilots any relevant no-tams they need

to be aware of before they finish their flight. obviously that wouldn't be practical if they continue to allow thousands of flights to launch into the skies, but i think they would be able to safely get planes out of the sky just by verbal, or oral communication. >> for what it's worth, just saw a fedex plane land at newark on our live picture there. so, steve in your experience, given the antiquated system you just described, given what no-tams does and you said this is the right call by the faa. how long does it typically take to resolve a problem like this? >> in 30 years of flying i've never heard of this happening. this system never going down and air traffic control failers are pretty rare and localizeds. in what i heard you say in the lead-in, sounds like they are simply going to reboot the system the way you reboot your computer, and before they allow more planes to launch they want to make sure it's all working

and all the no-tams are positioned in the right way. if you wanted a sheer guess, a few hours but i don't think we flow nearly enough to be sure of that at this point. >> steve, stay with us. bringing in a conversation with nbc's tom costello covers aviation for us here. tom what more can you tell us about this outage? >> reporter: faa tells us they're working to bring the system back up as quickly as possible and doingpiecemeal, bringing it up piece by piece. you've gone through the discussion what the no-tam computer is. used to refer notice to airmen now notice to air missions, bottom line, providing critical safety information for pilots. whether runways closed, airspace closed because of a military operation or a rocket launch. all of that information is presented realtime to pilots. when that system went down, this morning, the faa immediately tried to alert everybody that

this is not optimal in terms of flying without would this safety information. united airlines decided they are, in fact, going to cancel all flights this morning, postpone, hold all flights this morning. but we have some flights flying. this is not a ground stop. this is, however, an effective ground stop for many airlines that are saying we don't want to fly under these conditions. we're talking about, you know, thousands of flights. at the moment we've got 1,100 flight delays. about 95 cancel aces or so at the moment. that will likely change through the morning as faa tries to get the system back up and running as quickly as possible. as you can see, it is pretty quiet right now at laguardia airport, but there are planes on the ramp preparing for and trying to taxi into position. one of our photographers at our affiliate here in washington, d.c. tells us he did see planes taking off from reagan airport. but it is a kind of a

piece-by-piece operation. you can see looks like american does not have anything pulling out of the gates at this hour. >> no. american's actually cancels flights, we know firsthand. first of all, follow-up, tom if we can, what steve rattner was talking about. how we have an antiquated air system hasn't seen this happen in 30 years he's been flying and follow-up with a question how shocking it is there's not a redundancy here. not a system, a redundancy system in place. so if a system like this goes down, that would impact america's -- america's aviation system, that there's not redundancy to keep it going? what can you tell us about the antiquated nature of the system, and why in the world there wouldn't be that redundancy? >> the faa has in fact been working for some time to upgrade its entire computer system. its network. as you would expect.

this is an extremely expensive proposition and the busiest airspace in the country. and it's a work in progress, to use a cliche. i can tell you that, you know, despite the fact, despite the fact some of our computer systems and processes appear to be antiquated it is still the busiest air system in the world, and still, you know, the safest. but they are trying to piecemeal, put this, upgrade this system airport by airport or, in fact, a system like this, no-tam system, bring it to a more updated modern version of this i. >> it system. pardon me for big distracted. amsterdam, frankfort and london the gatwick have normal operations into and out of the united states. pretty much u.s. airports that are factored and airlines, for example, and pilots that are not

able to get that immediate safety information on a runway that may be closed. on airspace that may be closed. the good news, know, typically among the slowest periods of the year for air travel. just came out of the holidays. we still have a ways to go before spring break. if this had to happen, it didn't have to happen, but happening at the least disruptive part of the year, and don't have much weather or not the pacific northwest and rain and such in california. >> jonathan lemire, an update from the faa, ten minutes ago saying still working to fully restore notice to air mission system while functions are coming online. national airspace system operations remain limited. jonathan? >> yeah. transportation secretary pete buttigieg been in touch with airlines trying to get a handle what's going on here. tom, my question to you, covering it, this sort of

antiquated system, certainly don't know what's happening. it's possible a computer glitch. anytime, we should mention this, anytime something like this happens, questions raised about some sort of hacking or cyber attack. chatter there, tom, officials are looking into? >> i had the exact same question this morning and asked the question, any signs of a hack and so far don't have an answer to that. i'm not sure that yet they've been able to do the forensics analysis to tell me that as well. to joe's point about the system that needs to be modernized, you may recall on january 2nd, right? the busiest travel day after the holidays, everybody coming back from new year's eve, the entire computer system in florida went down. air traffic control in florida. that was at the miami center, and as a result, we had essentially nothing moving for about two hours in florida. some of our producers stuck on the tarmac for two to three hours in florida. that speaks to the need to

upgrade the system, and one can presume given two high-profile computer outages in the stays of two week weres, congress may have questions about the faa's computer systems and budgetary needs. >> absolutely. tom, if you're repeating yourself aapologize. has this happened before? steve rattner seems to think he's never seen anything like this before and what about flightaware? how many flights impacted? >> 1,100 flights delayed at the moment, building by the minute. i need to go refresh my page. and 95 cancellations. to answer your question, i've covered this beat now 18 years. i don't recall this happening on this scale before. >> yeah. >> i will tell you normally when they have spot outages in various locations around the country, they're able to get their systems back up pretty quickly. within a couple of hours. i'm under the impression faa is,

would go towards that goal right now, as things are starting to slowly come back up online, but on a typical day you could have north of 25,000 planes in the air. now, these are not all commercial planes, of course. you could have lots of private planes as well, but it can be very, very busy airspace, and tell you that it's also not uncommon to have as many as 100,000-plus people, passengers, pilots, in the air at any one time. think about that. 100,000 people in the air at any one time over all the united states of america. there we go. an outbound flight right there. looks like a jetblue taking off from laguardia. this is not a ground stop, as we now are trying to get updated information from the faa, rather certainly affecting flight operations nationwide. >> tom, as we watch this jetblue flight take off from laguardia, can you clarify for people watching. the air traffic controller

system is separate from the system that we're talking about that's down right now? >> listen, it's all integrated. aware of the notice to air missions. old folks, notice to airmen we used to refer to it. the air traffic control is very much integrated into the not-tams integrated nationwide. to reiterate, flying into a particular airport and they had to close a runway last night, because a snow plow crashed. whatever the case may be. and these are constantly updated for 440-plus airports across the country. >> all right. nbc's tom -- >> stand by. go ahead. >> no, no. >> -- allow to validate the

safety information system. >> guys, faa ordering airlines to delay all nights, all outbound flights, until 9:00 a.m. eastern time as it tries to validate the system. as it tries to reboot the system and get it back up and running. there's your news flash. faa ordering flights, airlines not to fly, not to depart until 9:00 a.m. eastern time. >> that's incredible. >> yeah. and what's fascinating, again, neither you nor steve rattner, who has been flying for 30 years has ever seen anything like this before. so, tom costello, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. >> i think we'll be seeing more of you. >> yes. >> in the next few hours. >> and we greatly appreciate it, tom. >> you bet. >> there has been some ambiguity this morning. first we heard, looking at laguardia. first heard there was a ground

stop, then we saw flights taking off. >> yeah. >> united and american and other airlines grounded their flights, but jetblue decided to take off now. an order from faa now coming down saying all airlines will have an effective ground stop until 9:00 a.m. >> delaying all outbound flights until at least 9:00 a.m. this morning eastern time. >> at least 9:00 a.m. look at flightaware anybodies further delays, just keep going up as we have a plane, again a delta plane now at laguardia. >> a lot of confess about this outage and whether or not it was the system needing to be updated and budgetary reasons, or, you know, very far outside possibility something else, but this is a pretty big, big impact on american travel and on travelers, and on commercial travel. this is going to have a lot of impact on people's lives

throughout the next few hours. >> right. >> but also big questions as to how this happened and how to prevent it from happening again. >> and it impacts americans traveling and obviously impacts american commerce and impacts so much. steve rattner, so listening to tom costello, we talked about today's outage. talked about the outage in florida on january the 2nd. we certainly saw the meltdown with southwest airlines's systems. of course, a lot of problems this past summer. again, it seems that -- that you look at all of these facts. it lines up pretty consistently. pretty damningly, with your assessment that this system is antiquated, hasn't really seen great improvements since you began flying 30 years ago? >> you know, no. that is definitely the case, joe. look, i think it is important to

start with the positive, which is as tom suggested. we do have an amazing air traffic control system that does manage to move thousands of planes around the country every day without virtually any accidents or anything untoward happening. in that regard we should be happy and proud of what we have, but it is incredibly antiquated, it has not changed in 30 years and apart from these outages, costly for americans, planes fly much longer routes than they need to. they're separated as they come in to land by far greater distances than they need to be, because the sophisticated gps and other ways of locating planes and keeping track where everybody is has not really been fully integrated into the system. so we're still using very old-fashioned kind of ground radar and things like that to track these planes, and the

result, as i said, is incredibly inefficient system in terms how many mimes planes have to fly involving large amounts of costs, large amounts of extra fuel uses and the faa has been really, really slow trying to get this next gen air system rolled out. >> steve rattner, thanks for calling in this morning. more than 30 years as a pilot offering important input this morning. the headlines from tom costello, for people just waking up, flights out of united states airports grounded until 9:00 a.m. until the faa can figure out what's going on with this system within the larger air traffic control system. just not comfortable having planes in the air. we saw a couple while steve was talking, last off the ground, one out of laguardia and one out of new york as well.

massive repercussions. another one taking off from laguardia. massive repercussions across the u.s. today. >> fascinating. heard the faa alert, all flights grounded. >> no outbound flights. >> yeah. grounded until 9:00 a.m. some ambiguity as we see some planes lined up to take off at laguardia. we'll stay with it. it is a fascinating question that needs to be answered is, in time, of how this happened. is it possible that there's been a hacking here? and there has been concern for quite some time that the faa would be a prime target for any possible terror operation. so those questions, of course, will be answered in the days and weeks to come, as well as the question of why we don't have redundancy for the system. >> no backup. >> there's no backup.

that just doesn't make sense in 2023. still ahead, we're going to stay on this developing story and bring you the very latest. probably more of our show will be focused on that. we do have plans to be joined by two new york democrats who filed an ethics committee complaint against republican congressman george santos. >> also going to give you the latest on republicans declaring war against america's premiere law enforcement agency and america's government itself. and more on the breaking news. the faa ordering airlines to delay all outbound flights until 9:00 a.m. eastern time. we will be right back with the very late effort. latest.

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airport. you see planes on the runway, but as of now the faa says there are no outbound planes allowed to get into the air, as we continue to follow an outage that the faa is experiencing. hundreds of planes across the u.s. are grounded right now, because of an issue with a critical system for the faa that wasn't giving the information that pilots across the country need, that they usually get on an hourly basis throughout the day. the agency says its notice air mission systemfailed. updates essential information for flight operations. we had flightaware telling us about 760 flights into and out of the u.s. delayed. that number has probably increased significantly as of this past hour. it doesn't appear other countries are experiencing the

same outage. amsterdam and london airports, for example, are in working order. the faa did report in the past half hour that some functions of this system are beginning to come back online, but then at the same time, they also mandated that all airlines are delayed. the ones that are headed outbound to be delayed until at least 9:00 a.m. no planes are allowed to go in the air. flights are being canceled across the country. we are hearing that on a personal level. our flights are canceled, and lots of friends and colleagues that we know are reporting the same, the faa says technicians are currently working to restore the system, and there is no estimate for restoration of service at this time, but, again, willie, the faa has ordered airlines to delay all outbound flights until 9:00 a.m. they've given us that timeline,

at least, until they figure out what is going on here, and, willie, again, we have two experts on our show. tom costello and steve rattner, an experienced pilot, who say in the decades they have been following airline, air traffic, air disasters, and the like, they've never seen anything like this. >> yeah. never seen it, and steve rattner flying more than 30 years said this is the right call by the faa. >> for sure. >> shouldn't be unin the air without a that. a little confusing because a report faa has said domestic flights should stay on the ground. knop departures but are seeing delta flights lined up at laguardia. the last shot looked like some turning back to the gate. nuke looks very quiet. reagan national airport in washington looks also very quiet. bring into the conversation captain john cox, veteran

commercial pilot more than 14,000 hours in the air, over 10,000 in command of jet airliners. captain could, tell us from your point of view as a commercial pilot what you see and hear about this notam system and how critical it is to keeping a plane in the air and flying it safely? >> well, the system is how the faa let's you know of unusual or non-normal things around that airport or around ground stations that may be out of service for maintenance and so forth. so it's critical information that you have to have prior to departure, and it gives you things like runways being closed for maintenance. ground stations being out. construction cranes that may be in the proximity of a runway. things like that. so -- and it's a pretty extensive list that the crews get, just before departure. for this notam system to be out,

i don't ever remember it fails before and i've been flying 53 years. >> whew. >> so this is really unusual, but i think the faa is doing all that they can. they realize and know the criticality of that information. they're going to try to get it back up online as quickly as possible. >> sounds, captain cox, like you think the faa is making the right call to figure out exactly what is going on? >> absolutely. this information is required in what is called the flight dispatch release for airliners, and this information, the crews have to have prior to departure. so it would -- from the faa to say we can't provide it in a timely fashion, the consequence of that is that the flight will, the package is not proper for departure and airplanes can't leave. >> steve rattner 30 years experience, never seen it. tom costello, 18 yearsing on the

beat never seen it and you with 53 years flying said you've never seen the notam system going down. and fair to say the threshold for the faa to halt departures across the u.s. is very high? >> of course. it's virtually a last option. the last thing in the world they want to do. but as always, aviation safety comes first, and that's true with the faa. it's true with the airlines. it's true with all of us in the industry. consequently, if there is an outage like this that is creating a potential safety issue, the default position is we're not going to operate. >> so captain, we don't want to speculate and we won't here, but if you are saying never seen this and other pilots saying they've never seen this system go down, do you have any sense what might have crashed the system? is our air traffic control system antiquated? how could this happen is the question people will be

answering today. i think there's a lot of people within the faa that are going to certainly be answering that question. there are backups within that system, and to lose the primary system and the backup system, that -- i think it's a little early to speculate. there will be answers to that and there will becorrective action taken. the notam system in recent year has been up for revision trying to get improvement. this may be a catalyst sew help those improvements be implemented. >> yes, i think a catalyst to that for sure. you mentioned, sir, there are backups to the system. i think that's the first time we heard that this morning. the big question was, how could there be no backup? how could this happen? what do you make of that and are you concerned at all about the possibilities here? >> i've been an investigators a

long time. over 30 years. so my thinking is, let's wait and get the information before we start speculating. there are backups to the system where a single outage, you know, they try to eliminate single failures. what happened here is it a software issue? i would not think it's just a single server going down. there's backups to that kind of approach to it. so i think right now the question is, get the data. get it up and running. then do a forensic look at what caused the failure, and see what we can do to ensure that it doesn't happen again. >> captain cox, while trying to stay away from speculation, after the flight freeze was put into effect by the faa indicating all flights would be on the ground until 9:00 a.m. this morning, we did see from

our fixed camera at laguardia two flights take off. a delta flight and a jetblue flight. what would be the reason for that? >> without -- they had to have a flight release. how they managed to get it, i don't know. but without that flight release, they couldn't operate. so they must have had, at some point, the information that they needed one way or another. >> i wanted to get your take as to how long this will be before it's repaired? you have so much experience flying. we know the ripple effects when there's just a bad storm somewhere. you know, let's assume that we are, the faa is right and things start to creep back to normal around 9:00 a.m. how catastrophic or widespread will this be? will it take the rest of the day to catch up? >> there's a domino effect to

this. airplanes move around the world and consequently as an example, an airplane trapped in new york in four hours expected to be in los angeles in five hours. so the people in los angeles that are depending on that airplane, their flight would be either delayed or cancelled and the airplane then, say, go to hawaii and then come back. all of these airplanes moving around throughout the day. i think certainly tomorrow at the earliest and potentially the day after until the system's back up to 100%. >> all right. nbc aviation analyst captain john cox. thank you very much for joining us this morning. we're going to continue to cover this breaking story. as of now, the faa has ordered all airlines to delay any outbound flights in the united states until 9:00 a.m. eastern time. we're getting the very late effort nervous for this on these

domestic flights. all domestic flights grounded until at least 9:00 a.m. eastern time. there is a system failure in their main computer that delivers information to pilots and airlines across the country, and the backups apparently have gone down as well. so we are following all angles of this story, including the domino effect on air and commercial travel. we'll be right back with much more breaking news right here on "morning joe." ning joe" u level up u won't take a time-out one dose of ubrelvy works fast it can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within 2 hours without worrying if it's too late or where you are unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks a protein believed to be a cause of migraine. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. most common side effects were nausea and tiredness. migraine pain relief starts with u learn how abbvie could help you save. ask about ubrelvy, the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine.

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welcome back. we are following major breaking news as the faa has ordered all airlines to delay all outbound domestic flights across the country until at least 9:00 a.m. eastern time. there has been some sort of system outage, and the backups to the system are failing as well. statement from the white house

through karine jean-pierre says the president has been briefed by the secretary of transportation this morning on the faa system outage. there is no evidence of a cyber attack at this point, but the president directed d.o.t. to conduct a full investigation into the causes. the faa will provide regular updates. joining us now once again, nbc news correspondent covering aviation tom costello. tom do you have anymore information as to what's going on here? >> well, bottom line is if you are inbound, on a plane coming into the united states, you're already traveling inside u.s. airspace you can land. they're not doing to detour you. they don't think there's a safety issue there. this is really about outbound flights. faa is essentially ordering all airlines flot to depart until at

least 9:00 a.m. eastern time until they figure out why they had this massive computer outage trying to reboot and validate systems making sure they don't have any ongoing issues. at the moment, we stand at about -- make it 1,200 delays in the united states and about 108 cancellations. as you expect, that number will grow through the day because we are likely to see the ripple effect. as we looked earier at the flightaware map, 6:00 a.m., real an east coast centric, busy on the east coast, not so much on the west. as the day goes on, it fills up. you expect, quiet 6:00, 6:30 a.m., quiet midwest, west, and all commercial departures grounded. that doesn't prevent an individual pilot, a private pilot, from flying. i did find it very interesting

that the white house press secretary is saying so far they don't see any signs of a cyber attack, because that was among the first questions i had this morning. especially following the fact we had this computer outage in florida just a week, ten days ago, on january 2nd if a affecting all their traffic in florida. >> that's exactly what i was looking at as well. that struck me when i saw the statement, tom. again, there is no evidence this is through karine jean-pierre. press secretary at the white house. no evidence of a cyber attack at this point and that the investigation continues. you have to ask the question at this point, because there were reportedly from one aviation expert, correct me if i'm wrong, this system does have backups. they failed too, which is causing this domino effect and right now all outbound domestic flights held on the ground until 9:00 a.m. and i know of countless flights that are

already canceled. i don't know if you want to talk about the potential here that they're still investigating this, or just the domino effect of all of these delays and cancellations on personal business and commercial travel? >> yes. on a typical day, 25,000 commercial flights fly across the united states into or out of the united states. and they carry about 2.3 million passengers a day. and this is as we've said before the quiet period. the shoulder period, where we're between seasons between the holidays and haven't yet hit spring break. so january and early february really quieter for air traffic. nonetheless, planes you know flying pretty full these days because, in fact, travel is back in a big way. i can also make the point to you that we checked with overseas airports, amsterdam as well as london gatwick as well as frankfurt. all say their outbound flights to the united states did in fact takeoff on time. rome one flight delayed,

otherwise operations running as expected. by the way, this is, the notice to air -- sorry. old school. the notice of air missions. not notice to airmen. they changed the acronym. notam is what it's called. old school, notice to airmen. that they check on ipads or reams of computer paper telling them about the airport they're going to, the airport they're leaves and any alternative airports and any particular issues at those airports. for example, runway 22 is closed because they're repaving. or construction equipment is on this particular ramp. you name it. that's all the information. safety information, that's presented, and updated in realtime to the ipad and print it out on a hard copy as well. that's what we're talking about here. now, this is a u.s. system. the european notice of air missions that has not been

affected, to our knowledge. we're really only talking about the air traffic control notam system and i've received notable messages from pilots friends of mine saying they've never heard of anything like this happening before. we think it's unprecedented and i think you've already had on john cox, 53 years as a pilot never heard of this happening. a lot of questions why this is happening in the busiest and really the safest air system in the world. >> we should underline again for viewers, the white house, tom, white house says no evidence of a cyber attack at this point, but you mentioned captain cox who also said, hate to break it to you, but this could be a while before this is fixed, because as long as thir working on it they want to get it back and could be a day or so before it's fully back. that doesn't mean planes will be on the ground for a day, but 9:00 a.m. eastern sounds a bit like a first bid from the faa. doesn't it? >> yeah. i think that's possible. we were led to believe a short

time ago that things were starting to populate. things are starting to get back up to speed, but you're right. it's a process, and until they're completely confident that the entire system is up and operating safely, and that there are no other bugs in the system, i think you're absolutely right. and i've got to believe, having had many conversations with homeland security and cybersecurity, this is going to be a high priority to check to make sure that they don't have any evidence of hacking. i mean, it's one thing to put out a quick tweet, say no evidence of hacking but i think that's going to require a thorough forensics evaluation to make sure. >> key at this point. >> willie -- >> stand by. i may have news. go ahead. >> secretary to a point -- >> peter alexander telling us the president has asked the secretary to report to him directly what's going on. >> all right.

nbc's tom costello. let you get back on the phone and we'll be right back to the story again. headline, just waking up, faa ordered airline to pause all domestic departures until 9:00 a.m. eastern time as part of the air traffic control system calmed the notam system providing critical information to pilots in the air is down right now. and they're just not comfortable letting domestic planes get off the ground until that has been fixed. they say they working on it. white house says no evidence of a cyber attack at this point. doesn't mean there wasn't one but they haven't seen the evidence so far. if you're plying today obviously check with your airline. we'll stay on top of this and come right back to it. turning to a highly anticipated apple tv series titled super league, the war fr football. it takes us inside the fight around the proposed super league as it was called met with massive resistance from fans around the world where it would kill off the champions league,

what appeared to be nothing more than a grab for money. joining us now, director of this documentary series and also sports soccer analyst, co-host of men in blazers, roger bennett, featured in this documentary. roger, for the nonsoccer fan, this was a huge deal. just watching some of your docu-series, it is a thriller. we're talking about billionaires, back room deals, we're talking about the biggest sports stars in the world. all sort of colluding to create this league to massive backlash around the world. >> yeah, flashing back to april of 2021, this was a shocking story when it leaked. coup atte 12 of the biggest football clubs but 12 of the biggest brands period in the world had secretly

plotted to create a new league that would if successful over time replace the much beloved age old champions league. and that would turn football on its head and have repercussions of an extent far beyond sport into economics, into politics, and we watched it unfold live in real time publicly. you had politicians speaking out from major european nations, boris johnson the prime minister of the uk threatened to drop a legislative bomb. the royal family got involved. middle eastern sheikhs, russian oligarchs, tycoons, billionaires were all entangled in this. and of course fans took to the streets in an friday protests and raided stadiums. as a filmmaker who often makes stories about how football is a microcosm, a mirror of our shifting values at any given moment, i was watching this unfold and i had a lot of questions. chief among them was what do the

guys behind closed doors on either side of this thinking. and within a few weeks of this saga breaking out, my co-executive producer and my producer and i were on zoom calls with the very shot callers on all sides of this equation. and we were saying exactly that, which is we see it as a characters driven thriller that unfolds over the course of 96 sleepless tense hours with the ticking clock leading up to this climatic uefa congress. we wanted to look at allegiance, leagues, all the machinations that unfolded before us, but also an opportunity to sort of lift the food up and see how the machinery works on a $40 billion a year industry that i would argue is undergoing a bit of an identity crisis.

>> and libby geist is my sister, and she was also behind the oj made in america. and so this would be like the red sox, yankees, dodgers, a few of the big money teams forming a breakaway league and saying good-bye. >> exactly that. and the american connection, this is very much an american-driven idea. you have oligarchs, sheikhs, all the american investors came in and tried to keep up, couldn't, so they tried to take a working man's game, rip it from its roots and turn it into a new faberge egg. we're talking about the tectonic plates trying to get the best players in a world to be a megaphone for their brand. and these americans trying to keep up. and essentially they created an idea which was to model it on american sports where the chicago bears lose and get the

number one draft pick to get back into things. but their idea essentially got the james corden, the queen on their side which is very hard to do. i think the fyre festival lasted longer. this was like the glass onion. >> and so listening to roger, and several of the premier league clubs, big six are owned by american families. so did they misread this thing because they are american and are used to big time capitalism and big time sports industry stuff, or what happened here? >> the american owners were pretty quick to apologize in the days that came after the super league initially folded saying that they had not fully understood the pyramid system and the history and what the traditions had meant to european

fans. there are three clubs that are not american owned that stayed in the super league who would argue that any change is going to be met with resistance. and if you look back at something like the premier league in the mid-90s when it came about, it was very unpopular as a new proposal for a new competition and now it is seen as a national treasure. so the big debate here if you fly a little higher is are we going to look ahead, is football a house of cards that is going to collapse, do we need to create solutions for the fan so that the sport can continue to grow. that would be the argument of the super league and the argument of men of the traditionalists and those fans who took to the streets was how dare you come in and hijack something that we created, working class sport, the people's game that essentially gives us local identity. this is not something for capitalists outside of europe to

decide the future of the sport, it should be the fans. >> so roger, you are the perfect people for that idea, the fan's voice. tell us more about that outrage that was so widespread it got these billionaires to change their minds. >> yes, the peasants with their pitch forks outside of the clubs claiming what is theirs. i spoke to an american owner the day before the news broke and they told me about the idea, i said this is crazy, this is 100 years of history and tradition, you can't do this. he said we are doing this, it is done. we have the pr machine. they had a war room and one thing they had not thought about is that their own team's fans would turn on them. and that is what they did. it is an epic misread, very american misread. one of the things in the film is spanish owners would go on record, italian owners. american owners would say this is a terrible embarrassment, brush it under the carpet, hair

piece it and go away. this is a fascinating film. it is like "succession" in cleats. it transcends football. it is a beautiful piece of work. >> and it has elements of jason bourne. it is incredible. the war for football premieres this friday on apple tv plus. jeff, roger, thank you and congratulations. good to see you both. mika, back to the top story. >> yeah, hundreds of u.s. flights are delayed right now following a historic system outage. in the last hour, the faa ordered all airlines to pause all domestic departures until 9:00 a.m. eastern, time to allow the agency to validate the integrity of flight and safety information. what does that mean? the agency says it is working to restore the notice to air

missions system which updates essential information for flight operations, information about what is going on at different airports across the country, whether a runway is being updated or a runway is closed. vital information for pilots to know. according to the flight tracker flight aware, more than 1200 flights within, into and out of the u.s. are delayed right now and more than 100 are canceled. transportation secretary pete buttigieg posted on twitter that he has been in touch with the faa. the white house says buttigieg has briefed president biden and that there is no evidence of a cyberattack at this point. we also got word through tom costello that the president has now asked the secretary of transportation to report directly to him on this major developing issue with airline travel across the united states.

joining us once again veteran airline pilot captain john cox, he has flown over 14,000 hours with over 10,000 in command of jet airliners. he is an nbc news aviation analyst. and i'd like to start where we left off with you, because we can't find anyone who has seen anything like this before, captain. >> i think unprecedented is probably the correct word. i have done a little bit of checking since the last time we spoke, and i had a friend of mine attempt to pull the notem system and he did get some information. which tells me the system is starting on come back but i don't think that it is up and fully running yet, which the faa rightfully so being conservative with it and testing it before releasing it to the airlines. >> so even if they get the system back, wouldn't they

continue with the ground stop until they know what caused it? >> the question is the information. once you have the information in the flight crew's hands, then they can safely operate the airplane. it is not as though it is an air traffic control radar computer or something like that. it is just a distribution system of information. if the information is available, then i think that they can safely operate. >> and if we're looking at a ground stop of domestic flights, a delay at least of domestic flights at least for the next hour, that will be several hours by then, and also the number of flights that are already canceled as a result of this, i just had my flight canceled, how does this impact commercial business, personal air travel, what is the domino effect at play here? >> oh, it is going to be certainly very disruptive today, and it will spill over into

tomorrow. i think the system is resilient enough to hopefully within a couple of days be back to 100%. but we're going to be dealing with the repercussions for as you say the next couple of days. >> captain cox, for people just waking up as we cross into our 8:00 hour on this east coast, who don't know what this is him does and why the faa is taking the precautions, can you describe about what it does for you as a pilot up there? >> the notem, it is an acronym for notice to air missions. and it is all of the unusual or nonnormal systems around the airports, around the navigation facilities, things such as a an example, a runway being closed for maintenance, that

information is transmitted to the flight crews via the notam system. you get that prior to your release to push back off the gate. so that you know how many runways are available and where you can land and where you can't. so if there is a ground station, navigation station, out of service is that along your route of flight, the notam system is how you determine that. if there is a construction crane in the proximity of a runway, the notam system is how you are aware of that. so all the hundreds of unusual or nonnormal things that go on every day around airports and dealing with air navigation. >> john, i understand the president is speaking about this now. >> yeah, president biden leaving the white house a moment ago said this, i just spoke with pete buttigieg, they don't know

what the cause is. but i was on the phone with him. i told him to report directly to me when they find out. aircraft can still land safely, just not take off. the president goes on to say they don't know the cause, they expect in a couple of hours they will have a good sense of what caused it and will respond at that time. but certainly captain, a huge deal right now. nothing taking off across the country and likely won't for yet another hour. and you said -- when we spoke to you years ago, the ripple effect could take not just hours but perhaps days. how does that impact in terms of pilots and crews who we know are on the clock, they time out, what sort of staffing situation will this be? because that is part of the domino effect too. >> absolutely. the domino effect will affect significantly crew scheduling. you will have pilots that will be out of position. also maintenance is done on

airliners on a regular basis, and it is scheduled in advance. if the airplane is not where it is scheduled to be, then they have to make alternative arrangements for that routine literally daily maintenance that goes on. so is a lot of moving pieces in an airline operation. i've called it a symphony of motion for many years and that is literally what it is. it is hundreds and thousands of people working in concert to get the airplane safely from point a to point b. and so when you have a disruption particularly one of this magnitude, it affects everything involved. it affects the passengers, it affects the flight crews, it affects the rest times that the flight crews are scheduled for, it affects the maintenance, it affects every aspect. >> captain cox, please stay with us if you can.

we want to bring in tom costello. new viewers coming in here. what more can you tell us? >> at the risk of repeating what you and captain cox have been talking about, i apologize, i was over on "today" show, the notice of air missions is the old notice to airmen computer system that provides the critical information that captain cox was talking about to pilots before they leave. it tells them here is information on the airport you are at right now, where you are going and alternative airports that you may have in your sights. so everything from a runway that is closed, construction equipment, military air space that is active, you name it, all of that is comprised and as a part of the notice of air missions. and so that is the system we're talking about. this morning the white said at the moment they have no evidence of a cyberattack at this point they said, however, the president on the white house south lawn said he simply doesn't know and he is directing

the transportation secretary buttigieg to report directly to him. you can imagine this question of whether any sort of a cyberattack is involved will be a high priority for the country right now to get to the bottom of this especially given the fact that ten days ago we had another computer outage in south florida. maybe completely unrelated, but this will clearly be a question for investigators, is there any question right now with the vulnerability of the faa computer systems. in the meantime, all domestic flights are not allowed to depart at least, this is commercial flights, not until at least 9:00 eastern time. and in addition to that, we are told many if not most inbound international flights are continuing into the united states. departures from europe, for example, are continuing into the united states. and just for context here, we have on any given day 45,000 total flights, that includes commercial as well as private. 45,000 total flights.

in all about 2.9 million people in the skies on any particular day. and so maybe about 25,000 of those are commercial flights. a big chunk are commercial flights compared to the cessnas flying out there. but you can understand why this is such a problem when you have 5400 planes in the sky at peak times, 100,000 passengers up there, the ripple effect can be substantial. >> and we just heard the word unprecedented from captain cox, so there may not be a good answer to the question because of no experience with this particular system going down, but has the faa given you any sense of a time line for people on those planes or airports thinking about traveling later today? >> no, and we've been talking to them and i've been watching their twitter feed closely. and the latest update is still they are working to restore the system. we have been led to believe earlier that they thought they were getting close, that they were having some success in

rebooting the system and they needed to validate the system. but it seems to be still a work in progress because this faa order prohibiting departures until at least 9:00 eastern time remains in effect. >> until 9:00, all domestic flights are grounded and experts and even analysts so far in our coverage are calling this un unprecedent ed. the white house says there is no evidence of a cyberattack at this point. the notice to air mission system failed, it updates essential operation for flight operations and apparently the backups did as well. technicians are currently working to restore the system and no word yet for restoration or service at this time, but of course they have given us 9:00 a.m. as perhaps when this might end. but tom, i'm curious, is it of note to you that when the president was asked about this,

one of the first things he said is they still don't know what caused this? >> was that for me or john, pardon me. >> tom, is it of note to you, does it seem interesting this that they don't have any idea what caused this yet? >> i don't know if he was freelancing, you know, i don't think that he's been necessarily in the weeds of what is happening with the computer system there. it sounds like they certainly don't have a conclusive determination yet of what has caused this problem this morning. i did want to hasten to add that medevac and military flight operations are still ongoing in the united states. and that is critical. medevac and military flight ops are still ongoing. and i believe, i'd ask john cox to weigh in on this, i believe that private pilot can still in fact depart. but he or she should have a pretty good understanding of what is happening at the airport that they are going to. and if they don't have a notam

information in front of them, they may decide, you know, it is better to sit tight. >> captain john cox, what do you think? >> a private pilot can depart. and they can do things such as get alternative information about the departure airport outside of the notam system. and for a private flight that may very well be adequate. so one thing that i did want to mention, that once they lift the ban on departures, they are not going to be able to just open the floodgates, they will have to meter the departures. so it is not as though as 9:00 everybody is going to get a release and be able to depart at 9:01. the fact in particularly as an example, the new york area airports, all three of those airports are going to be vying for a limited amount of air space. so there will be ground delays just to feed the airplanes back

into the system. and that in itself will cause delays into certainly the late morning and into early afternoon. >> so captain cox, to that point you just raised, the ripple effect, people now today in airports staring at the flight board, does this extend beyond today, could it go into tomorrow in terms of flight delays and flight changes is this. >> oh, i think it will go into tomorrow. the bigger question is whether it will go into the day after. so i think that you are going to see ripple effect all through today well into tomorrow and possibly into the day after before the entire system is back to 100%. it will get better over time, every hour, every few hours will be better. but i think there will be delays and cancellations throughout today and tomorrow. >> tom, is that in line with what you are hearing, cascading

effect will go well past today? >> that is a done deal just because the system is so tightly wound. even if right now everything is up and running perfectly, you know, you've got multiple hours now of flights not going anywhere and it just takes a heck of a long time to unspool all of that. i mean, listen, aswe've said, is this a pretty slow period for air travel in the united states. so you are not going to have spring breakers stuck, people coming back from christmas and new year's necessarily who are stuck. maybe the couple that was going on their cruise or going to europe for vacation, they may be in trouble right now, but for the most part, this is a slower period of air travel across the united states. by the way, i just checked, to answer your question about the cascading situation, and it is coming up fast. we have delays into, out of or within the united states of 3500 flights now, 3500. 446 flight cancellations. that is only going to grow as

john said through the day as we wait word from the faa. one more clarification, peter a lex ander texting me, he is at the white house, saying that the correct -- exact words were, quote, we don't know about the possibility of a cyberattack. so they are not saying that is not the case, they are simply saying we don't know. >> and they don't. that is the truth of the matter. those typically busy airports that we've been looking at remain awfully quiet. that is reagan national there, laguardia, newark, traveling across the country. no domestic flights for at least another 46 minutes here. tom costello, we'll be back to you shortly. can captain cox, to you as well. captain cox, to you as well.

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at the very least a mess for air travelers as there is a delay of outbound flights until 9:00 a.m. because of a system failure. tom costello has the new information on this. >> some just breaking. and this is now just coming into us, the faa says it is making progress in restoring its notice to air missions system, the notam system, following this overnight out age. departures are resuming at newark liberty and atlanta hartsfield jackson due to airport congestion in those areas. again, departures are resuming in atlanta and newark. fment a a says it expects departures to resume at other airports at 9:00 a.m. so again now expecting resuming at 9:00 a.m. we still don't know the cause and whether cybersecurity in anyway played a role. the president earlier this morning saying we simply don't know. just a context here, the numbers

are staggering. there are 520 air traffic control towers in the united states. 19,000 total airports. of course many of those are very small little runway kind of situations. but the faa runs 45,000 flights every single day. and about 25,000 of those are actual passenger commercial flights. and again, all domestic commercial flights have been grounded morning until 9:00 eastern. we now have limited flight operations resuming at newark and also atlanta. >> i think safe to say from folks like you who know a lot about this type of stuff that that decision to delay all domestic flights was a huge one. unprecedented one. does it gives you anymore potential confidence that they are getting a handle on this or that they don't have as many concerns about outside interruption of their systems?

>> i think that is a fair assessment. we were led to believe an hour and a half ago that they were making progress. at one point we thought they would be up by 7:00 a.m. and then came the process of revalidating the system and making sure every single part of this vital computer system relies on, that it is back up and running properly. there is the tweet where they say that departures resuming at atlanta and newark. full departures at 9:00 a.m. only because there are plenty of aviation geeks out there like myself, remind all of us they did order all planes on the ground on 9/11. of course that was a very different circumstance. >> absolutely. no, this is coming from within the faa, within the systems that

they use to help their pilots and airplanes get from airport to airport. and what that system has gone down. what are you learning about the backups to this system? were there multiple failures that happened here? >> i can't honestly answer that. we are led to believe that there are backups, this is not just one system, but for whatever reason the system went down this morning. i just checked latest delays, they are adding and mounting by the minute. 3500 delay, thousand up to 225 flight cancellations. and you can expect congress will probably be asking questions about this following the southwest airlines meltdown that we had last month. we know that they are already primed for quiz the airline specifically southwest and the faa about what happened with the southwest meltdown.

the president saying that he wans secretary buttigieg to report directly to him. and so far they don't know if it was a cyberattack. >> and the white house putting out a statement through the press secretary saying there is no evidence of a cyberattack at this point. that language just leaving the door open a tiny bit. but again news this morning from tom costello that some airline travel, some flights are doing to be moving out of newark airport and the airport in atlanta, departures resuming there as well. there is major congestion. it certainly will not do anything to try to pull back on the domino effect across the country as so many flights have been canceled or are on hold at this hour. so we're waiting again until 9:00 a.m. eastern time to see if

the faa allows all flights to resume. but as of now, most flights domestic departures across the united states of america are on hold due to a system failure. tom costello, come back to us the minute you hear anything. we appreciate it. turning to politics really quickly, and house republicans yesterday approving a resolution to create a new select committee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government. the subcommittee was approved on a party line vote and will have open-ended jurisdiction to scrutinize any issue related to civil liberties or to examine how any agency within the federal government has collected, analyzed and used information about americans. republican jim jordan of ohio will chair the subcommittee with the authority to obtain some of the most sensitive secrets in the government, including information about covert

actions. jordan says his goal is not to target democrats or law enforcement officers who have scrutinized former president trump, but to protect the first amendment. joining us now, "new york times" opinion columnist david french and senior columnist for the "daily beast" matt lewis. david french, do we believe him is this. >> jim jordan who tried to get the election overturned? the answer to that is no. of course you don't believe him. look, we do have to have oversight. legislative oversight of intelligence agencies, of law enforcement agencies, it is a necessary part of governing. the problem is really less is there oversight of agencies is to who is conducting the oversight and what is their motivation. what we've seen with a faction of the republican party that is deeply ensconced in some of the wildest conspiracy theories in recent times, you don't trust those individuals to conduct the

oversight properly that is part of their legislative mandate. >> matt lewis, those members are empowered partly because kevin mccarthy gave them the power. your new piece is titled mccarthy's concessions are fuel for electing more radicals. you write the squeaky wheel got the grease. kevin mccarthy's ascension to speaker involved making concessions that will put mccarthy in a straight jacket. instead of picking a speaker they picked a fight and were able to win concessions that will make the contingent of mainstream moderate republicans both weaker and smaller while growing sway and swelling their own ranks by picking a losing fight, a small cadre of dedicated zealots were able to exercise out size power and strike a deal that almost guarantees that they will become stronger. things won't get better until sane patriotic conservatives who care about preserving liberal democracy are just as willing to take a passionate stand and fight for things they believe in

if the only people willing to fight for beliefs are the radicals, the radicals will always win. clearly, matt, the radicals did win, they held up kevin mccarthy's speakership until they got everything they wanted out of him including one member being able to raise his or her hand and say i want to vote to throw you out of office. >> that's right. and everyone talks about the motion to vacate. i think there are two other deals that are even more dangerous. one is putting these three house freedom caucus members on the rules committee, that will have a very significant impact i think on legislation going forward and on the ability to maybe get things done, important things possibly even like raising the debt ceiling. but the other thing i think, the other big deal that is probably underrated was a deal cut by this mccarthy affiliated super pac that essentially said they will no longer play in safe

republican districts in open seats. what that means is in elections, it is very likely that we'll have more matt gaetzs, more lauren boeberts and less normal republicans winning the primary races. and that i think will have major ramifications in this battle to trumpify or modify the republican party going forward. and the reason it happened, the whole reason this worked is that matt gaetz and lauren boebert and these radical republican rebels were the ones who stood up and fought. the moderate so-called sane we'll say mainstream conservative republicans, they can't raise a stink, they didn't fight. and i think they got the short end of the stick as a result. >> david, let's talk about the newly empowered rebels. and we know that there is probably not much room for bipartisan legislation this year.

the white house, democrats had very modest expectations about be able to reach across the aisle, but some things have to get done. the government has to get funded, the debt ceiling has to be dealt with. how concerned are you that the newly empowered radicals on the right will play games with those things with significant consequences for everybody? >> i'm extremely concerned. and there is an issue that was not on that list which is ukraine. amongst the rebels, the radicals, whatever you want to call them, this disprportionate number who oppose funding to ukraine, this geopolitical significance where many republicans sadly have been utterly reckless in responding to this russian aggression. and you also layer upon that world historic event, you layer upon things like you were mentioning the debt ceiling where you feel like you might be

facing another one of these acts of brinksmanship. but the debt ceiling, it is not clear to me whether constitutionally you have the ability to conduct that brinksmanship. the constitution says the debt of the united states shall not be questioned. and so here you are talking about when you are talking about playing games with the debt ceiling, you are playing games with constitutional obligations here to honor the public debt of the united states of america. and so we've got a lot at stake here for which, you know, you have the most powerful nation in the world and its legislative body is being held up by people who have this radicalized agenda. and they are a very small minority who are using the rules, very small minority, using the rules to perhaps impact american policy in profoundly negative ways. >> "new york times" opinion columnist david french and

senior columnist for the "daily beast" matt lewis, thank you. and coming up, which of these things is not like the other. donald trump takes boxes of government documents and refuses to turn them over even responding to a subpoena? joe biden had just a handful of documents and voluntarily and preemptively turned them over. we'll break down the differences between those apples and oranges. and also some hopeful news for air travelers this morning amid the mess for travelers across america as the faa orders a delay of all domestic outbound flights because of a system failure, word that departures are resuming in atlanta and newark from nbc's tom costello. we'll have the very latest when we return. ery latest when we return. ♪limu emu & doug♪ hey, man. nice pace! clearly, you're a safe driver. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance... ...so you only pay for what you need!

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president biden says he is cooperating fully with the review into how classified documents from the obama

administration ended up in an office he used after his time as vice president. speaking yesterday, the president commented on the matter for the first time since details of the probe came to light on monday. >> people know i take classified documents, classified information, seriously. i was briefed about this discovery and surprised to learn that there were any government records that were taken there to that office. but i don't know what is in the documents. my lawyers have not suggested i ask what documents they were. and we're cooperating fully, cooperating fully with the review and which i hope will be finished soon. and there will be more detail at that time. >> two s >> twoources familiar say his personal lawyers discovered fewer than a dozen classified documents at the penn biden center in washington back on november 2, immediately after they notified the department of

justice and national archives and turned over the documents the next day. since then sources say a trump appointed u.s. attorney has been reviewing the matter for the department of justice and attorney general merrick garland has been briefed on preliminary findings from the fbi. it is now up to garland to decide whether to open a criminal investigation into the situation. when asked yesterday why the discovery of the documents was not disclosed sooner, a spokesman for the white house counsel's office wrote, quote, this is an ongoing process under review by doj, so we're going to be limited in what we can say at this time. but we are committed to doing this the right way and we will provide further details when it is appropriate. so mika, obviously there are comparisons being drawn by many republicans to the donald trump documents at mar-a-lago. obviously vast differences there. but the department of justice and the fbi are looking into this matter and have been for several months now. >> right. immediate opportunity for the

republicans to pounce. so let's look at how the situation compares to the classified documents case involving former president donald trump. trump as you may recall is under federal investigation after an fbi search of his florida home and resort reportedly turned up up more than 160 classified documents. 60 of which were top secret. in the biden case, fewer than a dozen documents were reportedly found, some of which were marked top secret. in the trump probe, the fbi carried out its search after the former president ignored a federal subpoena and refused multiple requests to have the documents returned. >> ignored the subpoenas, refused to return the documents, refused to cooperate with the doj. >> in the biden situation,

documents were not part of an inquiry but the white house still turned them over the day after they were found. that means had biden's team not contacted federal agencies themselves, the national archives would likely still not even know any documents were missing. it is also -- >> so they self-reported, whereas trump kept being contacted by the doj and fbi. >> and had it hidden in a storage room at mar-a-lago. >> they lied to the fbi, they lied to the doj, trump did, lied repeatedly to try to keep the documents. but you're saying this is interesting, the biden team found it and immediately contacted the doj and turned it over the next day. >> also worth noting -- >> some would say apples and oranges. >> it is also worth noting that shortly after trump was ordered to turn over the doubts, security cameras at mar-a-lago reportedly captured his team moving them from one location to another. >> so there is another example.

listen, jonathan, again, i understand that there are republicans who think that their supporters and voters are stupid and that makes me sad. makes me sad that they think so little of their supporters and voters, that they think that they can be swept up in stupidity when in fact this is like comparing somebody who burns down a house, for the slower members of congress who don't know who i'm talking about, donald trump, with somebody who caused smoke damage on wallpaper because they lit a fire and forgot to close the flue. some would say this is apples and oranges. >> yeah, what about is not as strong with this one. there is no question here that

these documents shouldn't have been there, they are being investigated appropriately. but there are differences here that are stark and many. first and foremost, let's remember that if donald trump had done the same, if trump or someone around him had reported to the national archives, hey, we have these documents, not sure if we should have them, and return them, he would not face any legal issue either. or if he simply had returned them when he was first asked to do so, this also would have been very little chance of it being a legal issue for him down the road either. that is how it works. as we're reading this tweet here, it is not a crime to accidentally take and retain government documents if upon learning that you have the documents, you return them. we know trump did not do that. he lied about it, attorneys working for him lied about it and he fought it for months and months. and that is why this case is so different. the biden team self-reported,

they handed them over, they are cooperating with the investigation. trump did none of that. now, of course there are politics here and it has handed the republicans a talking point. dishonest one, but a talking point all the same that will be amplified throughout the conservative media, so we'll try to hear the equivalence between these few moments, perhaps even it makes merrick garland's job harder against bringing a charge against donald trump, but these two cases, though similar, are not the same, not even close. coming up, when it comes to attacks on democracy, did social media fail again? our next guest says misforeplayed a big role in brazil's recent political riot. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." ahead on "morning joe. for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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in brazil we're learning more about the consequences for those allegedly involved in enabling sunday's riots. the "washington post" reports a

judge on brazil's supreme court has ordered the arrests of two capital security officials, both the public security secretary and also the commander of the district's military police are accused of colluding with the rioters who occupied and vandalized the buildings on sunday. brazil's communications secretary said yesterday the government now believes that significant portion of the security forces present on sunday were in collusion with the rioters. joining us now, technology columnist for bloomberg opinion, whose latest piece is entitled social media firms failed once again in brazil. and you write in part, as brazil picked up the pieces on monday from the damage caused by supporters of ex-president jair bolsonaro, it was hard enough to see the echos of the january 6, 2021 insurrection at the u.s.

capitol, not least because both incidents were stoked by activity on social media. brazilian users of the meta whatsapp as well as telegram and tiktok saw a surge in calls to a ten day war cry party in the capital in the run-up to sunday's violence. even before that, ahead of the presidential election last october, twitter, facebook and whatsapp had been flooded with misinformation about the integrity of brazil's vote. >> so it appears what happened in the united states happened in brazil. i guess the question is, with social media companies knowing that they had a hand in organizing the riots on january 6, why weren't they more on alert in the leadup to the riots in brazil? >> this is an ongoing problem that lot of analysts who study

misinformation on social media have been complaining about for a long time, that facebook and twitter are very good at -- they have become very good at flagging misinformation for u.s. users. for example there were several studies that actually showed that ahead of the u.s. midterms, these companies did really well in stopping coordinated fake network bots from trying to influence the u.s. elections. the same isn't true outside of the u.s. there is adisconnect, an underinvestment in trying to tackle this in countries like india, like brazil. content for example that stays up in spanish and portuguese is being taken down in english. there is not that same kind of effort to moderate the content and stop this kind of violent rhetoric from percolating on these different platforms. and it is not just facebook, it is not just twitter. it is whatsapp, one of the most

popular messaging apps and apps generally in brazil. it is how families and friends stay in touch. it is how people stay in touch with businesses. this is how a lot of the election denialism gained a mainstream foot hold in brazil. lots of people joined these whatsapp groups full of so-called bolsonaroistas where they got introduced into the narrative and it gained popular interest among the people there. >> and obviously a lot of people two years on saw parallels in what happened with brazil with january 6. did you see some of that online as well? i was looking at some of the rhetoric used and it looked saw was used, and it looked very familiar. talking about patriots and freedom fighters and all of the things that we heard around and up to january 6th. was there some learning from the american experience, from the people who took the capitol in

brazil? >> yeah, yeah. so i've been speaking to people, again, who track these different communities. the election denial communities in the u.s., and they say that these groups online have been watching what's happening in brazil, sharing footage about it. and kind of learning from what's happening over there to improve their own strategies. and you're absolutely right. some of the words that were used ahead of january 6th, words like patriots, traitors is another one, were also being used in brazil. even english language hashtags, like hashtag stop the steal, what was trending in brazil. these calls to action evoking the use of the brazilian flag, just like the u.s. flag, so people who are watching this are saying, there's a lot of crossover between these online communities. not just in brazil. they were seeing the same thing in elections in france, in australia. so this is kind of becoming a global trend almost.

>> and unfortunately, as you said, they're using donald trump's stop the steal hashtag. so no doubt -- >> here we go. >> january 6th played a big role in these riots, right? >> yeah, i mean, it's hard to say what caused the other. you know, one thing that's similar, similar to the fact that donald trump complained about the integrity of the election, bolsonaro himself also laid a lot of the groundwork for this by complaining about a stolen election himself. but i think when a head of state is pushing this kind of narrative, admittedly, this makes it very difficult for social media companies to step in and try and stop. i mean, it really hinders their own efforts to stop these kind of rumors and viral content from carrying on and just spinning out of control. one of the things that whatsapp has tried doing is limiting the amount of times that people can share a viral video. but still, the companies need to

do more. it's very tricky for whatsapp, because it's a private encrypted app. they can't see the content. they can't tell if it's fake news or real news. so all they can do is try to put in these little flags, these little features. they'll say, for example, this particular video has been forwarded many times, and that might be a red flag to a recipient to say, hey, this might be a rumor, maybe i should check it out. but there's got to be more that these companies can do, particularly outside the u.s. and these international companies to try to stop these kind of rumors from going viral and becoming violent. >> all right. technology columnist for bloomberg insider, parmy olson, thank you very much. first, an update on this morning's breaking news. domestic flights across the nation were grounded earlier today when a monitoring system failed. flights are expected to resume in just a few minutes, but it will be slow going at airports across the country. across the country

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so we've got an update this morning for air travelers across america, as the faa had ordered a delay of all domestic outbound flights until 9:00 a.m. this morning. let's go straight to nbc's tom costello with breaking news on this story. >> breaking news from the faa. they tell us now that normal air traffic control operations are resuming. normal air traffic operations are resuming across the country following this faa computer problem involving the notam computer, the noticed air mission computer, that is providing information to flight crews and the ground stop has been lifted. you may recall that the faa ordered that in fact all domestic carriers had to pause their departures until 9:00 a.m.

eastern time, and now normal operations are resuming after about a two-hour pause more or less. flights haven't moved much in two hours. so there will be, throughout the morning, a cascading effect. let me check the latest data for you real quickly on how many flight cancellations and delays we're looking at this minute. about 4,000 delays out of the united states and about 700 flight cancellations. this is throwing a monkey wrench into the entire system. and if you're flying today, expect delays. you may want to wait a few days until the system can clear out the cobwebs and the system continues to rebound, but the question remains, what caused this? we don't have an answer. every pilot i've talked to, every veteran i've talked to says they've never heard of this system going down before. while the white house says there is no indication as of this

moment that this was any sort of a cyber attack that will clearly be top of mind for investigators. >> so, tom, for people waking up on, in mountain time zones, as well, and if they do have flights that they have to get on today, you're talking about 4,000 flights already delayed. >> a lot have been canceled already. >> hundreds canceled. about how long does it take in your experience, how long would it take for this to clear out? is this a half a day problem, a problem that air operations, i have been feeling one or two days from now. >> i think you're talking at least all day. the good news is, weather for the most part, not a problem today. california is a problem, weather wise, but for the most part, across the system, it's not a huge problem. my hometown of denver that has 1,500 -- oops, i want to check that. my hometown of denver has 74 flight delays and four cancellations. it's early there, though, of course, not even 7:00 a.m.

new york city is look at 3,200, chicago 19 cancellations, that according to flight aware's misery map. >> all right. thank you so much. nbc's tom costello, greatly appreciate it. >> all right, we've got a lot to cover with this. of course, tom talked about the unanswered questions here. what caused this unprecedented decision to literally ground all domestic flights for several hours? let's bring in former faa administrator, randy babbitt. thank you very much for joining us. any clue as to what happened here or what are you hearing from your sources and colleagues? >> and just to follow up on what we've heard now from tom costello, as well as steve rattner, who's been flying for 30 years, tom says, like ratner, pilots have never heard of anything happening like this before. what could have caused it?

>> that's a great question. i'm sure there are a lot of people at the faa asking that question. i don't know whether it was a simple mechanical failure, something in the computer, internal workings, a software problem, hacking -- i wouldn't rule anything out at this point. but it's an incredibly important system, because every flight and every airport, the pilots have to know if there's anything that's not operating up to standards at that airport, and they get a notice to the airmen that perhaps, you know, one runway, the electronic approach system isn't working properly. well, they have to know that, they have to plan their fuel loads and things like that to compensate. so it's a very important system and personally, i have not heard a thing yet that would explain how this failed. >> mr. babbitt, what would you say to americans? a lot of americans would be surprised there's not backups in the system, redundancies that

would have prevented this from happening? why wouldn't there be? does that have to do with the desperate need for upgrades that we've been hearing about throughout the morning? >> upgrades would certainly help. and there are some backup capabilities. but your worst nightmare is when the primary system fails and the secondary system doesn't take over. and i'm going to imagine right now that that's probably part of the problem, that the alternative means to produce the same information and distribute it, at any given moment, there are anywhere from 7 to 9,000 flights in the air, and this system is covering, i think, close to 30 million square miles of this country. so it's a very important system. so i don't think this is going to be a single day. i think you're going to find a dual failure somewhere. >> mr. babbitt, can you talk a little bit about the threshold inside the faa for not a ground stop, but to have all domestic

flights, anyway, stopped for a period of time. i can imagine the conversations going on, the implications of doing this, what it means for air travel and economically and on and on and on. what was that conversation like and where is that bar? >> well, the first step of those questions is going to be, is the safety or the integrity of the air traffic control system compromised? if the answer -- that's a simple question. if the answer is yes, then you're going to have a problem. now, what is this affecting? you know, at any given moment, as i said, there's over 7,000 flights in the air. it's going to have a cascade effect, if an airplane is two hours leaving atlanta, it won't get to its next destination, two hours late, crews can only fly so much in a day. it's going to have a rumbling and accumulating effect to the system, but it's going to start with, is the system safe? and the answer is, in this case,

yes. it's been compromised. the information that the pilots need to operate safely is not available to them. and you just simply are not going to dispatch to an airport that you don't know what condition that airport is in. >> randy, we obviously don't know the cause of what happened here. the white house has suggested that at least initially, they don't believe it was some sort of cyber attack, some sort of hack. but there's going to be a thorough investigation. but talk to us about what's happened at the faa to prepare for such a possibility. what steps are taken to try to prevent some sort of hack by a rogue actor or whoever, to do something exactly like this. >> reporter: well, i haven't been at the faa in a number of years, but certainly, you know, they should be using state of the art cyber protection so that you wouldn't have a hack. your worse nightmare, which we saw years ago, you may remember a fire in the chicago air

traffic control center, which was malicious. it was a disgruntled employee. they'll get to the bottom, but, you know, the preparation, they're certainly -- if you say to yourselves, internally, at the highest levels, is the system safe? and if the answer is "no," then you stop it. but if the answer is, well, we have some workarounds, another way to get this information, "a," where is the information? it's in a database that's being collected live 24 hours a day, every airport reports any anomaly, because into the system, it's then reported to the pilots operating in those airports. could we get that information, manually get into the pilots. and i'm guessing that the answer was, no, we can't. that's why they shut it down. >> with the stipulation here, mr. babbitt, that we don't know exactly what happened to this notam system. just more broadly, we've had a couple of analysts, expert

pilots say that there's an antiquated system more broadly in the air traffic control. what's being done to update that and do you have any concerns about our current air traffic control system? >> i don't have any concerns about it, but we certainly could, you know, continue moving up. and of course, in this day and age, when you're talking about software, it's outdated next week. the stuff develops and improves so rapidly, it is a challenge. and especially when you have a system as big as the air traffic control system. remember, you're melding data from literally thousands of points, tracking tens of thousands of airplanes. it's a very complex system, but it runs well. could it be improved? of course, it could. and it costs money. so, that's always a challenge. but, yes, the system is safe. it certainly could be improved.

>> former faa administrator, randy babbitt, thank you very much for your insight this morning. we really appreciate it. hundreds of domestic flights have been grounded for hours because of this historic system outage, but as we reported, it appears the faa is making some progress in resolving the issue. the agency says flights are resuming gradually, across the u.s., following that overnight outage with its notice-to-air mission system. it updates essential information for flight operations and the system went down just before 6:00 a.m. eastern time. the faa eventually made the call to ground planes to allow the agency to validate the integrity of flight and safety information, and as a result those cancellations and delays have been stacking up this morning. according to the online flight tracker, flight aware, more than 4,000 flights within, into, and out of the u.s. are delayed, around 700 are canceled.

transportation secretary pete buttigieg posted on twitter that he has been in touch with the faa. the white house says that buttigieg has briefed president biden and that there is no evidence of a cyber attack at this point. >> well, willie, no evidence at this point. it's certainly awfully early. and that's something that they'll be looking at for quite some time, because -- >> they're letting planes fly again, that's a good sign. >> that's a good sign. as far as why this went down and steve rattner said and other pilots have been telling nbc's tom costello, they've never heard of anything like this happening before in their career. so, obviously, it is, it's a real problem. this is -- as we look over the last couple of hours and we've seen this story developing, we, of course, turned our attention back to the fact that you had ground stoppage in and out of florida on january the 2nd, one

of the busiest travel days of the year, because they had problems with their systems there. you see the meltdown, obviously, at southwest airlines. that may have been more of a private companies' decisions, bad decisions that they made over time. but this happening again, you stack up that with the problems that we had this past summer, the last summer, this is a system that is the safest in the world, is safer now than it's ever been, but at the same time, in many ways, it's extraordinarily inefficient. and the cost to passengers, the cost to airline companies, but also the cost to american commerce is fairly high. it seems to me that congress needs to look into upgrading these systems. we've heard complaints about the system. we hope that's something that that's one thing that the democrats and republicans can agree on. >> there's been so much lately, this certainly an issue that

congress will and needs to take a look at. we're seeing some movement out at that shot of reagan national, but some taxing begins as normal flight operations are resuming as promised. that was at 9:00 eastern. it's 6:07 as you wake up out west. if you're just waking up, the faa did ground domestic departures for a couple of hours today, because of a hiccup, a problem in this notam messaging system that gets critical information to pilots while they're in the air. the flights are resuming, but of course, there are going to be massive clays from airports across the country today. nbc's tom costello has been covering this very closely. what's the latest on the flights today? >> as you would expect, we're getting a lot of e-mails coming in from various airlines saying that customers should check your app to find out if your flight is delayed or canceled. and the airlines, united, delta, southwest among them, saying they're working to restore their flights as quickly as possible. let me just give you a sense. pardon me, i'm looking at a

computer screen off-camera here, of how many flights are delayed or canceled right now. let's go by airline. southwest at the moment has got 42% of flights are delayed with southwest. american, 19% right now. as i go down the list, united, 16% of flighs right now are delayed. sky west, 4%. delta, 19%. that's going to be the story of the morning. by the way, even air canada right now, 17% of flights with air canada right now are delayed. and as this rolls out through the day, as they try to play catch-up through the day, hopefully they can minimize these delays and cancellations. i think the good news is that, you know, the weather for the most part today is cooperating, other than california. the weather is not bad for flying, and as we've said many times, this is the day, this is the month, rather, when there aren't that many people flying, compared to the holidays, compared to summer and spring

break. there are 19,000 airports across the country, you guys. 19,000. now, the vast majority of those, of course, are a simple runway strip out in the middle of a corn field. if you're talking about really the big airports, 450 or so big -- or, you know, passenger airports around the country. everything from aspen airport to miami airport, right? and so all of those airports have been affected today, and they'll be involved in the catch-up. and then if you're talking about how many planes, on any given day, at peak, at the peak moment, about 5,400 planes are in the sky. and that, of course, includes both commercial and private. we did want to also mention through this whole thing, military and medevac flights were not affected by the ground stop, but it really did -- it is still affecting commercial flights. >> all right. thank you very much. nbc news's tom costello, greatly appreciate it. let's bring in now the co-anchor

of cnbc's "squawk box," andrew ross sorkin for the business angle on this. we've been talking this morning, when something like this happens, it not only impacts americans right to get from point "a" to point "b," but also obviously business commerce slowed down. obviously causes some great backups. >> this was unprecedented. >> and this is unprecedented today, but we've had problems in florida on january the 2nd, shutting down the skies over florida because of antiquated systems. and this continues happening one way or another. what can you tell us? what's the view from wall street? >> we've been looking, right to look this morning at the economic effects of this particular situation this morning and you're right, it is part of a larger trend, but one of the questions this morning is, who is going to bear the cost of this? so depending on the estimates that you're looking at, we could be talking about 3,500 planes or so, that may have been delayed.

what the knock-on effects of those planes are, meaning some are point to point, but those who are connecting and whatnot, do you get into a situation where people are staying in hotels this evening, bags getting moved around in other ways. are the airlines going to bear the brunt of those costs? various insurance that consumers buy, american express offers it on your card. are they going to pay for these things? there are real costs to this. and then there's the larger cost, you've been talking about it all morning, which is, how much is it going to cost to update and upgrade the faa's systems. there's obviously a big debate in washington right now about updating the irs' systems. so i think that all of this is coming into question, but right now, we've been focused just strictly almost entirely on the day itself, and all of those folks who are being impacted and what those costs are going to look like. i will say, it is likely that airlines will not pay for folks who have been delayed by this.

there are some insurance programs that do seem to cover this and there are some that may not, depending on the language in your contract. >> you know, we've had a lot of talk about americans who fly having sort of their own bill of rights as airline passengers. any progress on that? where are the airlines on that? and how tough right now is their relationship? >> the airlines have been pushing back on that. the bill of rights that folks have in europe is very different and much more generous than what we have in the u.s. every time we have one of these incidents and when you look at what happened over the holidays or other times, you would think that it would spur a new debate, for reasons that are somewhat inexplicable, that debate seems to always stop. i don't know if that's a function of the lobbying campaigns that the airlines pursue or something else, but

there's a real question, as to whether we should have a bill of rights. that is much stronger than the one we have today. it's unclear, by the way, in this instance, who would be paying for this bill of rights. oftentimes, we're talking about when businesses, when the airlines themselves have not planned properly. this is when the regulator doesn't plan properly, and who bears those costs. >> yeah, great questions. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. you know, willie, we had tom costello talking about, how, fortunately across most of the country, we're going to have pretty good weather today. not the case yet again on the west coast. >> it's brutal! >> i'm telling you, it is unrelenting out there. isn't it? >> it's been that way for days, it's going to be that way for several days to come. a massive storm is pounding effectively the entire state of california. look at the radar there, from northern california, san francisco, all the way down to san diego, with flash floods triggering emergency rescues,

drenching hillsides that are giving way with mud slides. for the latest, let's bring in nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer. he's live just outside, a little bit northwest of los angeles in chatsworth, california. miguel, what does it look like there this morning? >> well, willie, thankfully it's dry, but we don't expect it to last. california has been getting hit with a conveyor belt of storms, one after the other. the most recent one that just passed here was incredibly violent and ripped open the road behind me. that's a massive sinkhole over my shoulder. two large cars plummeted 35 feet down. incredibly, everyone inside those vehicles made it out fairly unarmed. but this violent storm has taken some lives. >> reporter: this morning, californians waking up to more destruction from that monster storm, with the barrier bracing for even more torrential rain today. san francisco already pounded by lightning strikes and hail.

cities usually bathed in sunshine, like los angeles, santa barbara, and montecito, deluged with flash floods and mud slides. stranded residents pulled to safety. >> it was like 2 feet of mud and water coming down the street and out of the house. it was pretty scary. >> reporter: these disasters killing at least 17 so far. that's more deaths than in california's wildfires in the last two years. this morning, authorities also resuming their search for missing 5-year-old boy, kyle dohn. dohn was stuck with his mother, who was rescued, in their submerged car, when floodwaters swept him away. in l.a.'s tony holiday hills, home to multi-million-dollar homes, trees toppling on to cars, streets looking like rivers. the fame mulholland drive, temporarily closing as hillsides began to collapse. these historic storms drenching

san francisco to san diego, are some of the worst california has seen in 80 years. experts say, partially to blame, climate change. with the past eight years, the warmest ever on record. >> what that means for us is that the atmosphere is able to hold more moisture. so these storms can be bigger, there can be more rain in them, and they're more punctuated. >> reporter: but scientists say all the rain won't solve the west's devastating drought, because the already waterlogged earth can't absorb it all. now with an storms cyclone storm expected to hit the barrier today, the forecast calls for more damage and widespread destruction. >> as northern california begins to dry out, southern california will be back in the bull's-eye. this entire area will get hit with another storm system this weekend. it's just too much water too quickly. willie? >> no question about it. those pictures and those stories, oh, my gosh.

nbc's miguel almaguer in los angeles for us, thanks so much. mika? coming up on "morning joe," republican congressman george santos is facing a new house ethics committee complaint after admitting he lied about much of his personal history and resume. we'll be joined by two new york democrats who filed that complaint. >> and delivered it right to his -- special delivery! >> oh, boy. >> and he was there! >> they'll tell us all about it. >> we're back in just a moment. . >> we're back in just a moment or is it goodbye? you know, it seems like hope and trust are in short supply. [clap] now, as businesses we can blame and shame. or... [whistles] we can make a change. [clap] we can make work, work for our communities. create more equal opportunities. [clap] it's time for business to show its true worth. because it's not goodbye, world. it's hello, team earth. [clap] before we begin,

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turning now to capitol hill, where the investigations -- plural -- into congressman george santos continue to pile up. two democratic lawmakers from his home state of new york, congressman dan goldman and ritchie torres are filing an ethics complaint about santos over his financial disclosure reports. in the complaint, the pair

allege that santos violated the ethics and government act, and that he, quote, failed to uphold the integrity expected of members of the house of representatives. an attorney for santos has said in a statement that the campaign's spending did not break any campaign finance laws. joining us now, democratic congressman, ritchie torres and dan goldman of new york, who hand-delivered the ethics committee request to santos' office on capitol hill yesterday. fun to say, congressman goldman, what was the response you guys got? >> it was very quick, senator santos just asked us to give the complaint to his staff, but it is truly remarkable to see him in his office, working as a member of congress here, when he deceived his voters so blatantly and pervasively in order to get

this seat. and we've heard nothing from republican leadership in terms of condemning him or rebuking him. and we know why they need him. they need him to kevin mccarthy elected as speaker, they need him for their majority. and it's a continuation of their attack on free and fair elections to support somebody who complete defrauded his voters. >> well, congressman torres, they've done more than just ignore it. they've gutted the house ethics committee. so what's the impact of that going to be on this particular case? >> yeah, i find it outrageous, that the house republicans, who promised to drain the swamp, have effectively defunded the office of congressional ethics at a time when george santos has entered congress with an ethical cloud hanging over him. having said that, the committee on ethics remains in place, easily bipartisan, and the best hold for holding george santos accountable for defrauding both

the united states congress and the public. and for me, the most important question is, where did all the money come from? how did he manage to lend his campaign more than $700,000, as late as 2020, he reported earnings a salary of about $55,000 a year and he subsequently reported earning millions of dollars, which is an inexplicable growth in his personal wealth. so that's the basis for the investigation. he claims to have earned millions of dollars from clients, but disclosed none of the names of those clients on his congressional disclosure, as required by federal law. >> it's fair to wonder if there ever were any clients, if there was ever a company at old. congressman goldman, now speaker mccarthy for the last several weeks has been asked about george santos, has avoided the topic. he wanted his vote to become speaker. he and steve scalise were asked again yesterday. let's listen. >> have you made my decision as to how you're going to handle george santos?

>> no, and i'll tell you when we do. >> have you considered not putting him on any committees? >> you're a good reporter. i'll let you know when the time is right. >> have you talked to him at all? >> i'll let you all know. >> you saw him seated last week, there were no challenges to that. this is something that's being handled internally. obviously, there were concerns about what we had heard and so we're going to have to sit down and talk to him about it. >> still, congressman goldman, some non-answers there. is it your sense talking to republicans that they would like to see this guy go away, but happy to just have him seated and pretend it never happened? >> talking to some republicans, especially in new york, one of whom has called himself for a house ethics committee investigation into george santos, i think the sentiment is that he ought to be held accountable, if he did anything wrong. and that he should cooperate with the house and with authorities. he can easily resolve this by

turning over the documents and materials underlying the financial disclosures, underlying this entity that he created while after he announced his campaign. this was not a pre-existing entity. he was running for office, he created this entity, which all of a sudden and somewhat miraculously received millions of dollars from what he said was doing the same thing that he was doing before, when he made $55,000. you know, i'm a former prosecutor, the red flags are just all over the place here. and he doesn't have to require a subpoena. he doesn't have to require an investigation. he can provide all of these materials and clear his name. and if republican leadership does not demand that he do that, then they are complicit in his fraud. >> congressman goldman, jonathan lemire, staying with you because of your background with investigations and as a prosecutor, shifting gears in the house, we heard from jim jordan and other republicans yesterday about new effort to

investigate what they deem the weaponization of the federal government, and it seems like trying to looking into some of the probes into former president trump and his allies. what is your assessment of that, and what concerns do you have that that power may be misused? >> john, it's an outrageous abuse of power. never before has congress put in a resolution that it has the authority to investigate ongoing criminal investigations. and we know what they're looking at. and it's not just an investigation into donald trump, although that is part of it. it's also an investigation that includes many of them. scott perry, a republican from pennsylvania had his cell phone seized prudent to a court-ordered search warrant, based on a finding of probable cause that he committed a crime, and yet he says that he would like to serve on that committee. the purpose of it is to interfere with ongoing

investigations, and that's why i've called it the republican committee to obstruct justice. >> so let me ask you, congressman torres, what can you do? what can house democrats do? what can the senate do? what can the president do to stop house republicans from, first of all, undermining the efforts of the fbi. undermining the efforts of the department of justice, and actually trying to get into a position where jim jordan and some republicans can get their hands on the most classified, top-secret documents that we have to protect. >> look, we're going to make every effort to resist, but make no mistake, the odds are stacked against us. the new house republican rules are an unconditional surrender

to the far-right of the republican party. on the far-right are arsonists who are intent on burning everything down, including the leadership of their own party, and the full faith and credit of the united states. i have concerns about the holman rule, which would enable house republicans to weaponize the federal government against particular federal employees. it would enable house republicans to zero out funding for criminal investigation into donald trump. and as dan noted, under the rules, a representative like scott perry who's being investigated by the fbi could investigate the investigators investigating him. so the republicans, instead of draining the swamp, are filling it to an extent never seen before. >> democratic congressman ritchie torres and dan goldman of new york, thank you both very much for being on the show this morning. you guys have your plate full, for sure. >> oh, my gosh. coming up, the latest on the travel nightmare this morning caused by an historic system failure for the faa. "morning joe" is back in a

moment e faa. "morning joe" is back in a moment ♪3, 4♪ ♪ ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪

. we are just past half past the hour. we want to get you caught up in

the major developing story this morning. the faa says domestic flights are resuming gradually, following an historic and unprecedented system failure. an overnight outage with its notice-to-air mission system left travelers stuck on planes or in terminals for hours. the system updates essential information for flight operations. it went down just before 6:00 a.m. eastern time, just before the show started this morning. the faa eventually made the call to ground planes across the country to allow the agency to validate the integrity of flight and safety information. as a result, flight cancellations and delays have been stacking up this morning, according to the online flight tracker, flight aware. nearly 4,600 flights within, into, or out of the u.s. are delayed. around 800 are canceled. transportation secretary pete buttigieg just posted an update on twitter writing that the

system is fully restored. he's also ordered the faa to determine the root causes of the outage. the white house says that there is no evidence of a cyber attack at this point, but if it was a system failure, i have a feeling we're going to end up in congress talking about this, asking some serious questions about funding. >> of course, it's very early. right now, they don't know if there's sabotage, at this point, but we're literally 30 minutes past the system going back up. >> and the fact that they're letting planes fly again is a good sign, or at least a sign that leaning towards system failure, which just raises so many questions. >> it is a good sign. and willie, we often highlight what needs to be improved. it does bear repeating, what steve rattner said earlier today, the system is extraordinarily safe, safest in the world. safer than it has ever been, if

you look at how many americans fly through the skies every day, every week, every year, without incident. and that's the good news. the bad news is that we have systems that are older and antiquated and it's going to cost money. congress needs to spend the money on it. we need to make sure that the skies are not only safe and friendly, but also that people can move through airport-to-airport and get on their plane and do it in a way that's far more efficient. not only efficient for their time, but also money. >> it's a point steve rattner made, captain john cox, longtime commercial pilot made, former head of the faa, mr. babbitt was with us, too, he said, yes, it's an outdated system, but it's the best in the world. the skies are safe on a day-to-day, hour-by-hour basis, but there are upgrades and

technology improvements that could be made to the system, just to make it more efficient, to prevent moments like this, where you have a couple of hours of planes sitting on the ground, disrupting an entire day of travel. transportation secretary buttigieg did tweet out that he has developed an after-action process to determine root causes and recommend next steps. it will either habit at the cabinet level or the congressional level, but there will be an investigation into what exactly took down the system today. >> all right, coming up, the golden globes made a return to tv last night after controversy kept it off the air last year. we're going to show you last night's big winners, next on "morning joe." g winners, next on "morning joe." [beep... beep... beep...] i'm your glitchy wi-fi and i've decided... well, if you're on vacation, i am too. ha-ha-ha! which means your smart home isn't so smart.

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los angeles, the 80th annual golden globes took place last night in l.a., marking a return to the spotlight for hollywood's party of the year. nbc -- >> it's been a couple of rough years. >> it wasn't really a party. >> no party now, but they had one last night. >> yes, they did. jason kennedy was there and has more on the night's biggest moments. >> reporter: overnight at the 80th golden globes -- >> mr. spielberg, step right up. >> reporter: steven spielberg captured two globes for his work on "the fablemans." the film, inspired by his own childhood, won best drama and best director. >> i spent a lot of time trying to figure out when i could tell that story, and i figured out, when i turned about 74 years old, i thought, you better do it now. >> reporter: it was also a big night for "the banshees of innershirren." last year's show was not televised following an explosive "los angeles times" report exposing the lack of diversity

among members of the hollywood foreign press association and alleged ethical collapses. >> settle, settle, settle. >> reporter: first-time host jerrod carmichael kicked off the show with an understated start, but didn't mince words when addressing the controversy. >> i won't say they were a racist organization, but they didn't have a single black member until george floyd died. >> reporter: still, the show looked to rebound from its troubled past. >> well, we just gonna keep the black girl magic going! >> reporter: as actresses of color took home many of the top prizes. "everything all at once" and angela bassett were awarded for their supporting performances. bassett paying tribute to her late co-star in the franchise, chadwick bozeman. >> we were surrounded each and every day by the light and the spirit of chadwick bozeman. >> reporter: and veteran actress michelle yo clinched her first globe win for her mind-blowing

lead role in a sci-fi comedy, "everything, everywhere, all at once." >> this is for all the shoulders i have stand on, all who came before me who looks like me and all who are going on this journey with me forward. >> reporter: while jennifer coolidge checked in her first globe, thanking the "white lotus"' creator. the top prize for best actor went to austin butler for his rocking performance in the elvis biopic. >> and the presley family, thank you, guys. thank you for opening your hearts, your memories, your home to me. >> reporter: eddie murphy accepted the cecil b. demille award and gave others his so-called blueprint for success. >> pay your taxes, mind your business, and keep will smith's wife's name out of your [ bleep ] mouth! >> that was pretty good.

>> i like it. >> eddie! >> i think he's the only one who can do that. >> eddie is so great. he remains -- and how wonderful that he got that award for those of us who -- well, i was going to say, didn't see many of these movies. we did see some of these movies. and well, we're surprised some of them won, willie. but we'll keep those to ourselves. >> love eddie. by the way, eddie, that was the big lifetime achievement award that he got. >> that's so cool. >> previous winners get up there for like 20 minutes. he did a two-minute speech, was like, thanks, made his joke, walked out. jennifer coolidge in "the white lotus," boy was she great. you could give the award to about eight people. that movie, "the banshees of innershirren" is picking up a lot of steam. collin farrell could win for best actor. really cool irish movie there. and cate blanchett won. and it looks to be, guys, like

steven spielberg's having himselves an award season here. the path to the academy awards is getting paved with gold here for spielberg on the way. this movie, which we just heard, which is kind of autobiographical, it's how he fell in love with movies and really about his own life. that won best picture and won for best director last night, john. >> and certainly, there's such warmth and affection for spielberg in hollywood. you can see the love there in the room when he got that, especially a story that is about himself. and michelle yo, also, a lot of people really happy, someone who's worked for so long and finally recognized with an award last night. that was great to see, too. >> yeah, i can't wait to see "the fablemans." and also "tar." i've been wanting to see "tar for" for some time. >> and some we have seen of these movies that were honored last night. >> we're not going to talk about that. >> just say it. >> or the college national championship.

>> no, we're not going to say it. up next, a look at some of the stories making front page news across the country. we'll also check back in with nbc's tom costello for the latest at the nation's airports this morning. >> are they still open? >> what a mess! >> they're open, but things are a bit slow. >> if you don't have to fly today -- >> pack your patience! >> you said that. k your patienc! >> you said that if you're turning 65 soon or over 65 and planning to retire... now's the time to learn more about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare and get help protecting yourself

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realtor.com to each their home. let's get one final check in with nbc news tom costello. at 6:51 on the west coast, what's it look like? >> reporter: the bottom line is air operations are resuming across the country. they started back up at about 8:50 or so this morning. the faa lifting the ground stop for all domestic commercial operaors that had been in place after the critical computer system, critical for pilot information went down this morning. and as they continue to dissect the problem, the faa says we continue to look into the cause of the initial problem. it took awhile to reboot the system before they then were allowing traffic to resume.

the outstanding question is what is the cause. now importantly, this notice to airmen computer system has been around for awhile. it's not part of the faa next gen upgrade. these are two independent systems. i don't know how old this particular software is, but then the question this morning is what happened, is it possible that there was any sort of criminal action here? was there a hack? we have never seen something like this happen before. the white house initially said there's no evidence of this of that a the this time. then the president later said hen doesn't know yet. so i think that the bottom line is they need to do a full analysis and investigation to find out exactly what was behind it. let me check the latest delays and cancellations for you at this hour. boy, we're up to 5,000 delays nationwide now. and we're approaching 855

cancellations. i'm sorry 900 pretty quick ily. >> that's an incredible number of delays and kans ligss. given the unprecedented nature of the call the faa made this morning, the fact that they are allowing planes to fly in the air again is that a sign that there's less of a concern of some sort of outside interference? >> at least that the system was operating normally, but i don't think we can say conclusively whether that means there was or wasn't a hack. what it does mean they feel confident right now in the integrity of the system that they are allowing flights to depart. it may end up this was some sort of a short or collapse of some serveer somewhere and nothing more than that, but clearly, the rolling impact across the country is very significant and the economic fallout. i heard you talking earlier about who is going to -- what happens if you end up having to

stay the night this a hotel because of this or your meals or whatever whatever. you're out of luck. the airlines are not going to pay for your stay. it's not their fault this faa system went down. you should not expect the government to reimburse you. so the bottom line is this under the category of act of god ask just like a tornado, it's a the way it is. you're going to have to foot that bill yourself. >> without question there will be many people who have to do that. check into a hotel, spend the night, get a meal at the very least. what kind of questions now? we have heard from pete. he's beginning to order a report. ha kind of things will i they be looking a the in the short-term and the long-term to upgrade and make sure there are redundancies that need to happen. >> i profess i did study cybersecurity, but i have no insight into the faa. i can't tell you if they are air walled off, if the various

systems are air walled off. clearly, they have to look into all of that and answer the question was this a one off? was it one particular server? and is there any correlation at all with what happened back on january 2nd on the return from new year's when the entire florida enroute server system went down in florida and planes could not depart and they were stuck on the ramp for hours. are these two isolated cases a coincidence or something else going on and does it speak to the architecture of the computer system that needs to be upgrade ed. you see a flight is landing in tld. flights are resuming across the country. some are dwoing to be delayed throughout the day and airlines are saying check your app with the airline to see if your flight is delayed or cancelled. if necessary call, but chances are you're not going to get through. >> tom costello, amazing work

this morning, thank you so much. we really appreciate it. that broke and kind of came to ahead right during our show, but much more ahead as we cover the unanswered questions as to what caused the faa to make the unprecedented call to ground all domestic flights for hours. that does it for us this morning. jose diaz-balart picks up the coverage after a final break. z- coverage after a final break inn and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. [finger-tapping] if your work, works for your community, then you're on team earth. ♪ acoustic soul music throughout ♪ ♪ acoustic soul music throughout ♪ if your work, works for your community,

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