it's 4:00 in new york. it's friday the 13th. it feels fitting to remember that at this hour one week ago the party of the twice-impeached ex-president was still in the throes of a cringe-worthy history-making death match over the speaker's gavel in the house of representatives. this time last week we were still hours away from even having a speaker. this time last week, republican

members of congress were still dodging the disgraced ex-president's phone calls on the floor of the house. kevin mccarthy was still cutting back room deals, negotiating with his hostage-takers, trading away everything but the gavel so he could ascend finally, at long last, to the speakership. now less than one week into republican rule of the house of representatives, here we are, one newly minted republican of the house, george santos, is facing multiple open investigations and mounting evidence that he is both a pathological liar and a potential campaign finance violator among other things. speaker mccarthy is dangling the possibility of expuning one of the disgraced ex-president's impeachments. republicans are unleashing a so-called weaponization with mccarthy. democrats of the house are now

receiving death threats like this one against congressman eric swalwell. >> getting your -- kicked off the committee is the least of your problems. the american people aren't going to be happy till we soo you hanged by the nuk until death. dead, dead, legally! through trial! have a nice sling! >> this is what a deal with the devil looks like. speaker mccarthy says he's prepared to release all the security footage from the january 6th insurrection. thousands of hours. according to mccarthy's nemesis, matt gaetz, fellow republican, this was a key concession made in the back room deal mccarthy had to exchange for gaetz's present vote. feels like releasing the surveillance footage isn't going to be the oh, exoneration of republicans they might think it's going to be. if the surveillance footage that we've seen thus far, and we've seen a lot of it, is any

indication, it seems like this strategy might very well backfire. what else do they think they're going to find in that surveillance footage? could there be more footage of josh hawley running out of the capitol to escape the insurrectionist he helped incite? good stuff. there's more. in the last hour, house republicans informed attorney general merrick garland that they will be opening an investigation into the handling of classified documents by president joe biden, and that is where we are, one week into republican rule of the house of representatives. we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. capitol correspondent headache shake here. andrew weissmann, former justice department prosecutor, also former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. frank is back, former fbi assistant director for counterintel lens, and eddie glaude is the chairman of african american studies at princeton university. they're all msnbc contributors. i start with you, garrett haake.

take me inside the week that was. >> reporter: well, republicans feel hike they got some of the previous week's, you know, disastrous process of getting off the ground behind them. they were pleased to get their committee structures in place, this china committee, got bipartisan support they were happy about. they got some of their messaging bills that they wanted to get done as early as possible, kind of off the table, and they got, in their view, an enormous political gift from president biden in the form of these classified documents at the penn center and at the president's house. i think what we'll see now is what was always going to be the sent pierce of a republican-controlled house in an otherwise democratic party-controlled washington, which is these investigations. the judiciary committee letters you referenced earlier today, they want to dig into what doj knew about the process of discovering these documents. the oversight committee has reached out to the white house

about white house communications as related to these documents. and the house intel committee has requested a classified briefing on what's in them. this republican congress was never going to pass meaningful legislation that signed into law. it won't happen with a democrat senate and joe biden in the white house. but they can make the president's life hell with this series of investigations that gum up the works in this city for the next two years. and the door was kind of opened for them to do that this week. i think that's probably the biggest single takeaway of how i think this week progresses from their perspective. >> what is the -- why did matt gaetz want surveillance footage from the january 6th insurrection released? >> reporter: why did matt gaetz want a segment on this broadcast? gaetz has allied himself with elements who believe that many of the people who were arrested

on january 6th have been treated unfairly either in the immediate aftermath of their arrest or being held for trial and so forth. the idea that somehow additional video might expunge or otherwise kind of clear up the involvement of many of these people who were arrested either during or in the aftermath of the 6th, has kind of been one of those things that sort of propagated on the far right on some of these websites and so forth. but most of this video, if not publicly released, would have been available to people in pretrial detention hearings, in their trials. it boggles the mind what this does other than create more chaff, more confusion, more content for the machine that wants to make everything that happened on january 6th more confusing and opaque. >> garrett, let me play you the reviews on this first week from former member of the house republican caucus, kin sinker. here he is with charlie sikes.

>> speaker mccarthy said, whoa, a lot of folks in congress have fabricated their resume and santos has to build the trust of voters and he says santos will get some committee assignments, not the top ones, why would he, but santos will get some committee assignments, so my kevin being my kevin when it comes to george santos. they're not going to do anything about him, are they. >> kevin is a piece of [ bleep ]. let's be honest about this. he will say whatever he needs to say to stay in power. i'm not saying that gratuitously to be mean to him. it's just a fact. >> this is just obviously a kevin mccarthy thing to win votes for speaker. actually, while this was going down, the whole speaker vote, people would ask me is he going to win, and i'd say absolutely because he will literally do anything at the cost of the country or anything to become speaker, so he'll get it. he did. >> i mean, this is basically matt gaetz's line this time last

week when he was on fox news saying, listen, there's nothing left to ask for. do you, as a journalist on that beat, have your arms around everything that was traded for present votes? >> reporter: no. and i asked kevin mccarthy about that at his press conference yesterday morning, whether he thinks the american people deserve to know every promise that was made. he said yes, they do, but there weren't any beyond what's in the rules package, and we know that's not true. we know from some of these members like the gaetz comments about the january 6th tapes, byron donalds gave an interview saying he's on steering because that was one of the things that came out, on the steering committee, which makes decisions about other committee assignments, a very powerful position. so, no, we don't know the full threat of the promises kevin mccarthy made, and we're going to be dependent on the members who were, you know, in the rooms and the staffers who they tell to eventually report that out. i think what we've determined is there's not some hast master

list, some secret document, much to my dismay, that outlines every promise that kevin mccarthy made along the way, but there were clearly promises made and have to be promises kept because one of the things that adam kinzinger said that is largely true is that mccarthy was willing to deal, we know this, away a great chunk of the power of being speaker to get this job, but in doing so he makes it harder for him to keep it if and when any of those people or anybody else in congress decides he's not kind of going along with the plans either they outlined or the expectations of him. i think we'll find out what promises kevin mccarthy made, especially if he breaks them down the line, given the very short leash he's on from his conference with changes in the rules, motion to vacate, and, as we learned today, a fight over the debt ceiling that's going to get started a lot sooner than i think anybody in washington was prepared for. >> by next week, right? >> reporter: by the end of the,

month i believe. yeah. >> end of the month. frank, i want to read you -- i want to tell our viewers two things. the death threat against eric swalwell was something we broadcast because he disseminated it from his account. i want to provide the rest of this context from congressman eric swalwell. "this death threat is what happens when the fbi repeatedly says i've done nothing wrong, yet kevin mccarthy persists in spreading lies about me out of pure vengeance." those lies about swalwell were repeated this week, frank. the death threat that he shared came in this week. how do you assess sort of the threat climate that the republicans now, as garrett is saying, seeszing some of these narratives and pushing everything and anything into them to wage their really, really hot war against the people they view as their enemies but they happen to

simply govern under the banner of democrats? >> let me first, since i was the head of counterintelligence at the fbi, i left before anything involving swalwell, but i feel compelled to address this from a counterintelligence perspective. the statements that i've seen in public reporting that involve fbi officials and swalwell say that swalwell cooperated and, quote, there was never a suspicion of wrongdoing, unquote. was there an absolute likely chinese mms, civilian intelligence operative working in the states? yes. did she get into that office of swalwell's? yes. that's it. when the fbi approached him, he said tell me what i need to do, and he did it. so that's the facts. but i know facts never get in the way. with regard to what we're heading into in terms of risk, this is becoming very dangerous on a very personal level,

because what this committee is going to do and what the speaker has clearly already demonstrated he's going to do, is they're going to discard the fact and attack people personally and endanger their lives. i have to tell you, from, again, the national security perspective, not only am i concerned that they're going to launch an all-out attack on fbi people, never mind the constant erosion of the institution, but now people i assure you are going to come under attack. and that's very dangerous. we've already seen attacks at fbi offices. but further, don't forget, we see people not on the intelligence committee writing in to practice that they will get the intelligence briefings ordinarily provided only to the intelligence committee, so people like jim jordan and others want their hands on the real, live, raw intelligence that's briefed very discreetly to the intelligence committee. we're going to see threats, extortion, blackmail-type

threats where sources, methods, techniques are going to be threatened to be exposed if not actually exposed by these committee people like jim jordan and others under the guise of transparency. but what's going to happen as a result is people are going to get hurt if intelligence is divulged. also, by the way, who in the intelligence committee is going to give a fulsome briefing to the intelligence committees if they think it's all going to get handed to people who are going to release it on the evening news? so we're into a very dangerous threat and risk period. >> i want to stay on this with you, andrew weissmann. let me read you the latest reporting on the jordan committee designed to target and further heighten tensions against our law enforcement and intelligence agencies. quote, speaker mccarthy and other republican backers is akin to the senate's church

committee. they uncovered serious wrongdoing at the cia, the fbi, the nsa, leading to heralded civil liberties, protections, and much more congressional oversight of the intel committee. democrats and historians see darker historical parallel. they liken the republican zeal to pursue deep state conspiracies from the mccarthy era, senator joseph mccarthy. democratic skepticism has been fuelled by the fact that the new panel granting the authority to look into continuing criminal investigations, was among the demands far-right republicans made with mccarthy in exchange for their votes for them." i want to deal with this with the facts. i'll put a couple out and turn them over to you. jim jordan and other republicans

on the intelligence community have been doing this work that "the times" describes as zeal to pursue nebulous allegations of deep-state conspiracies since jeff sessions was the attorney general and rosenstein was the d.a.g. i think o'callaghan was the senior adviser to rosenstein. he spent a lot of his workday heading the national security division, and when he was rod rosenstein's deputy, dealing with these very members. they have been targeting for political smears and politicization the department of justice, the criminal division of the national security division, and the intelligence community for years and years and years. they will pull it off as oversight of a democratic administration. but this is an ideology and a fervor and a conspiracy theory rooted in zero facts that's been going on for many years. the variable here is kevin mccarthy. and he is exactly as adam kinzinger describes him, so weak, letting something so

dangerous get put into motion. we're at week one. where is this heading, andrew? >> well, to follow up with what you said and what frank comment tainted on, the irony is that kevin mccarthy was there on january 6th and he and many others were victims. and, you know, as he famously told the then president, who do you think you're talking to when the former president tried to say this is just antifa. so he's been very aware of how rhetoric correlates to actual violence. you can mention the names ruby freeman. you can refer to paul pelosi. but, again, you can look at what happened on january 6th. so they're very aware of the kinds of things that eric

swalwell just experienced, that this is the natural consequence of what happens with that kind of dangerous rhetoric because of concern of domestic terrorism and, you know, lone wolves who take up that cudgel. and i think the other point i'd like to make is that this kind of attack on law enforcement and national security operations does have an insidious effect within those organizations. no one is then thinking to themselves, oh, i want to be on x, y, z case that's going to be the subject of the subpoena power. it's better, if you are in washington and thinking of having a long career, to keep your head down. so it really does have an effect where it really takes an enormous amount of backbone to

foal protected to do your work, because the goal here is just that kind of intimidation to say if you do your job and it's something that could hurt a republican, this is what you can expect. so it's deterring that kind of case from being brought, from people working on that kind of case, from people cooperating like a cassidy hutchinson because it's really saying this is what we're going to do. it's sort of a legalized version of obstruction of justice, and, you know, just to return to kevin mccarthy, it really is, you know, a depth to -- we haven't seen the depth to which he will not stoop. even when he knows it's going to lead to violence. >> eddie, brad rafsen berger, liz cheney, andrew mccabe, rod

rosenstein, the other reason they do it is because it works. none of those people are in their jobs anymore. none of those people are working to protect or advance the rule of law in the way they were before trumpcorroded and created this structure for republicans to make it their mission to dismantle the rule of law in this country. >> absolutely. andrew put it nicely that it's the kind of legalized obstruction. it's political intimidation in a clear and effective way. i come at it from a different direction. this is kind of bizarre-o world. everything gets flipped. what i mean by that is, you know, the church commission, the church committee was trying to address the abuses of fbi and cia in terms of the surveillance of black communities, martin king, black activists and the like, as well as some other things. here we have the flipping of the script. white supremacist are now the heroes and the patriots, right?

the folks who are anti-democratic are the ones being subject to presentation. what we see here very clearly is everything that was kind of associated with those who were fighting for a broader, more expansive democracy, has now been flipped on its head and becomes the kind of modicum of what these folk represent. it's crazy. it's bizarre-o world in so many ways. on top of that, i was thinking about your opening where you mentioned faust. s me stof lease. he said if i wasn't a devil myself, i would give me to the devil this very minute. and i was thinking about kevin mccarthy at that moment. >> he forces us to, right? i misspoke. brad raffensperger is still in his job of the names i listed, but he and his wife have both revealed and testified to, both before congress and we believe in georgia's investigation, the extraordinary intensity and frosty of the death threats against both of them.

i want to ask you, garrett, whether there's any discomfort with turning the entire republican party into anti-national security agencies, anti-fbi, anti-doj, anti-intelligence. >> yeah. republicans will have to walk a fine line on this because they defined themselves so much in the sort of most recently premodern version of the republican party as being the party of police, the party of first responders, the party of law and order and of the military and so forth. and so to go after the doj, to go after the fbi, they're going to have to, if they want to try to make this credible to the country, to walk a very fine line in how they do it and give a compelling case to the american people about corruption and political malfeasance and so forth that thus far they haven't been able to do. i think that may have been also perhaps part of the resistance to the degree there was any

internally to the creation of this new subcommittee under judiciary to do this. it's outside of the typical structures of normal committees. it's a subcommittee within judiciary but has the same chair. it's not clear who the membership will be. it's just harder to control what tangents they go off on once they get started. i'm thinking about this group. there's a handful of new members on the republican side, this new group of freshmen from new york state, who have been the first people to call for george santos to resign. they are the majority makers in every real sense, right. the house republicans hadn't done as well as they had done in new york state this last midterm, they wouldn't be in the majority. they'll be the first call out santos and the first to rein this committee in because they could touch the hot gas stove here and make enemies out of the part of the party or the part of the country that they have long try so hard to represent publicly. it's a very delicate situation

for the national republican party. >> garrett, let me be clear. they want to expose political malfeasance at these agencies. is there evidence that there's been any political malfeasance of the agencies in their sight? >> reporter: it depends what you think about content, moderation, and social media companies. i think this starts with the twitter files, which have become a huge obsession on the right and the idea that the federal government and federal law enforcement were engaged in content moderation basically within some of these big social media companies, particularly as it relates to election-related content and covid-related content. if you think that's malfeasance, you're going to enjoy the evidence presented here. beyond that, i certainly have not seen compelling in evidence what's been presented publicly thus far. the committee gets to work in a few weeks here and we'll see. >> andrew, i don't mean to belabor this point, but i think it's important to understand that the reason we know about

the fisa, for example, that was scrutinized is because the doj i.g. told us about it. they investigated it themselves. i believe the genesis about anything about andrew mccabe's tenure into public view came from an internal inspector general. the durham probe spent four years, felt like eight, looking at everyone who touched the russian investigation and he found the technical term for jack you know what, bill barr's favorite term. there was nothing. these chapters in our country have been probed by the organizations themselves, so the notion that jim jordan is going to launch his inspector clue sew committee and found the agencies didn't sound the alarm themselves is ludicrous on its face. >> look, this is distraction. you know, when you don't know the facts, you basically are

going to essentially, you know, benghazi 2.0. i have to say when you're thinking about the leadership of the agencies under president biden, the idea that you're going to find any significant wrongdoing dni with admiral haines at the top of it, that's just not possible. same thing with the doj with merrick garland and lisa monaco pop you may disagree with them as a policy matter, you may think they should have done something different, but the idea they're going to be somehow have done something overtly political and gone after, you know, republicans versus democrats is entirely ludicrous. there's zero evidence of that. but i have to say, this is welcome to washington. when you have the house flip,

this is what happens. the one sort of saving grace here is that, you know, it's not -- jim jordan is not terribly subtle. this is just sort of -- you know, there's nothing to it here. i mean, if there was something here, they would be leading with the actual facts of what is causing concern. and this is really i think going to be committees in search of some flaw, but right now there is absolutely no evidence of anything. and as i said, i think the people who are in place are people of just incredible integrity, especially, you know, comparing it to what happened with the last administration where you had the former president saying that it was entirely appropriate for the department of justice to target democrats and actually calling for that. so, you know, the contrast is remarkable and ironic as to what

we're seeing. >> yeah. but i do think, garrett, you make a great point that the twitter files are -- they have a life of their own. and you could just imagine many, many months of reading those out loud. i'm sure they'll borrow some of the production elements, and that's a good thing to watch for. garrett haake, thank you so very much for spending time with us today. frank, eddie, thank you for starting us off on this friday. andrew sticks around. there is much more to get to. the u.s. house of representatives is heading to far-right republican control, including the threat of all the video from insurrection at the capitol they're promising to release. we'll ask a former member of the january 6th select committee what that's about. and the trump org sentenced to the maximum penalty. the judge chastising the company. and the republican effort to suppress the african american

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take the mystery out of managing your diabetes and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free at freestylelibre.us they were some of the single most haunting images to come out of the january 6th select committee's public televised hearings. then vice president mike pence being evacuated as violent extremists stormed the capitol, while outside the capitol, don't forget, violent extremists were chanting not just to kill him but how to kill him, "hang mike

pence." a makeshift gallows. as part of the back-room deal mccarthy cut with fringe elements of his party to get his little hands on the gavel, all of this surveillance footage from that day will be released, thousands of hours of it. but they hope to achieve by releasing something that never happened is anybody's guess since what we've seen is quite damning. but we still do not really know the deal with the devil that mccarthy made to secure the speakership. elaine luria of virginia served on the january 6th select committee. thanks for being with us. this seemed like something that would be good for the country, good for people who want to understand january 6th, not good for the part of the caucus that said it was a normal tourist visit. why do you think matt gaetz wants more surveillance footage out? >> this is baffling for a couple

reasons. first of all, more footage of the violence, the desecration of the capitol, of attacks on police officers, the heinous behavior that was going on throughout the day on january 6th, i don't see how matt gaetz can think that is beneficial, you know, to try to prove his point or some folks saying this was just a tourist visit. clearly it wasn't. the more surveillance video, the harder it is to make that claim. it hasn't stopped them, nonetheless. second, they're the same people who said we haven't done now have ensure security in the capitol. well, if you release all the security tapes of the capitol showing every evacuation route, every corridor, every bit of information that would lay out a roadmap for someone who wants to do something like this again, you know, that is really dangerous for the future security of the capitol and, you know, that is the reason that, you know, although a large portion of these have been released in different context, having them in their entirety would be very dangerous as a precedent for the security of

the capitol or any other federal or protected building. >> do you think he wants to show the altercation with ashli babbitt? she's a martyr on the far right and in moscow. what do you think he wants to do? >> well, you know, on the aspect of that, and i've thought about this a lot, the incredible amount of restraint that was used by those officers throughout the capitol, whether they will capitol police, metropolitan police, responding that day and literally getting brutally attacked themselves, here you have someone attempting to breach a barrier, you know, through a broken window very close to where leadership of the house, members, staff are all evacuating. and the fact that it's a tragic loss of life and, again, i say that, you know, the folks who were summoned by trump to come and believed in this cause and were misled, it's very unfortunate that someone lost their life under those circumstances believing lies that they were fed.

but i think it would prove a reasonable use of force was used by law enforcement in a dangerous situation and spun failed to follow their instructions. and so it really doesn't make any sense to me, you know, other than again, any opportunity that matt gaetz has to wrap mccarthy around his finger and get concessions from him, whatever that is, it seems he's gone that route whether they're nonsensical or not. if you think about it further, ttlaims what he requested from mccarthy. he might have a whole list in his back pocket they never talked about but how mccarthy is going to deny him? the idea there's a back-room list no one as seen puts mccarthy in a box with regard to demands that may have been made or not agreed to. who knows? >> it's so interesting. he put him in a box, but then mccarthy climbed in and was, like, take me in guys. it's been one week, and santos is like a character from like a

bad netflix series, right. he's lied about everything except his name so far. you've got this jordan-run committee that's going to investigate law enforcement and the intelligence community. you expressed some concern last week that they could investigate all the members that served on the house january 6th select committee. i mean, what do you make? we're one week in. where are we heading? >> well, i think people are pretty concerned the public watching this. they want their representatives in washington to take care of important things. all of these people ran on this platform about cutting gas prices and, you know, inflation and, you know, their views, which i don't share, on a women's right to choose and these different things. but they're creating a clown show, essentially. they're defending someone who has clearly used false pretenses to be elected to office. it really doesn't appear that they are focused on accomplishing anything. i think i said this last week.

i think it's a congress of grievances rather than governing, and they've already proven that in their first week. >> i'm just mulling your extraordinary answer about the footage and revealing the pathways and the tunnels and the evacuation routes. do you think that -- i guess i would ask, if you know the universe -- do you know the universe of surveillance footage that exists? and was that the reason why any of it was withheld in terms of what the committee showed the public and didn't? >> well, i mean, there's hundreds of cameras, thousands of hours cumulatively of footage. i mean, the committee, you know, used the footage to show particular moments in time that displayed, you know, the activities that were going on throughout that day. there was absolutely no way or real purpose of which we would have broadcast on live tv thousands of hours of footage. >> right. >> and when you take a small portion of it, which displays the activities happening that

day, you know, that presents a security threat. like, this is a corridor in the house of representatives. >> right. >> but if you watch 14 hours of that and then see, for example, senator schumer and speaker pelosi and, you know, perhaps vice president pence evacuaing through this corridor, then you move the next corridor, and you can piece together and map out exactly how these evacuation routes were used to keep people safe in the capitol. i think that gives away a large amount of information that's required for capitol security. >> there was a story this week in "the washington post" that a pretty wide-sweeping subpoena went out for a lot of the conduct that was scrutinized by the select committee and the work that you did around the fake electors. what is your sort of state of mind about the pace and the specificity of the federal criminal investigation being run by the special counsel into the president around january 6th? >> well, i'm pleased to see each time that there's reporting that they appear to be deeper,

talking to people who were, you know, close to both the former president and his allies as well as those who may have had contact with participation in the scheme in various states. so, you know, i think that there was a little frustration on our part as the committee early on. was doj doing anything? of course as a congressional committee, our role is different than the department of justice. but now that we have completed our work, presented, you know, a comprehensive story of january 6th to the public and passed that information on to the department of justice, i feel they are continuing to act and move forward with that as a framework. i mean, they didn't need us to conduct an investigation. they didn't need us to issue, you know, criminal charges. but we made recommendations about, you know, the referrals of what we gleaned from our information. they have subpoena power and a way to compel witnesses beyond what a congressional committee can do, and therefore from all observation, i think that they are doing that in order to obtain even more in-depth

information and waiting to see the outcome of that. >> undoubtedly doing it after, after all of you did your work in congress. form congresswoman elaine luria, it's wonderful to have a chance to ask you these questions. thanks for joining us. >> thank you. ahead for us, the trump org gets the maximum sentence after its conviction for tax fraud and off the books perks. and the judge's harsh words.

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today a piercing, scathing rebuke and the maximum punishment for the disgraced twice-impeached ex-president's company. the trump organization was fined $1.6 million this morning, a slap on the wrist for the company perhaps, but after a conviction last month in the manhattan d.a.'s case for the company's 15-year tax fraud conspiracy, it is a major blow to the business and the ex-president's reputation and image, one that michael cohen on this program called a death spiral. the manhattan judge says he finds it interesting that the trump corp. once again tried to point the finger elsewhere today, including to the lone person charged in the scheme, chief financial officer allen weisselberg, who began a prison sentence at rikers island in new

york. the prosecutor who called for the maximum sentence today said the conduct can only be described as egregious and said that the fraud extended far beyond weisselberg because, quote, this was from the top down. today, with the walls closing in on the ex-president, alvin bragg suggested this would not be the last we would here from him regarding the trump organization's shady business dealings. listen to that. >> the sentencing today and the sentencing earlier this week closes this important chapter of our ongoing investigation into the former president and his businesses. we now move on to the next chapter. thank you. >> you say closes this chapter. can you use weisselberg again to pursue mr. trump, sir? >> let's bring in nbc news investigations correspondent my colleague tom winter. andrew weissmann is still here. tom, a new book is a new book. a new chapter. what's he talking about?

>> it remains to be seen because alvin bragg has said on this network repeatedly, they were asking him that question at the end of the press conference, can you go back to allen weisselberg, and now that he's sitting in rikers island, which is an uncomfortable place for anybody to be, let alone someone of his age, can you put more pressure on him again, a theory floated by several people. michael cohen also told you i believe on monday stated that he expects a phone call from alvin bragg's office. i'm still trying to figure out a legal analyst tell me what is the nexus to a new york state crime, if, in fact, it was the payments to stormy daniels, pursuing that as a criminal charge. but we haven't heard any signs so far of any new subpoenas that have been issued, any new

testimony that's been elicited to be brought in front of a grand jury. so it's question mark to me as to what an ongoing investigation is at this stage. but i'll certainly see to the d.a.'s office, they could be doing things and reviewing things, taking a fresh look at certain aspects of the case that we're just not aware of. so i don't want to say that nothing is going on. we just haven't seen any signs of it. it's not public at this point. from a criminal perspective, this does end a chapter, certainly, for the trump organization and for the former president. they have this absolute mountain in front of them in a civil lawsuit coming up that directly targets not only the company but the former president and his kids. >> his kids, yeah. >> that's a significant hurdle they'll have there. but fines are not $1.6 million. you're talking about a quarter of a billion dollars as a potential disgorgement. that's an entirely separate matter and hurdle for the trumps. it remains to be seen where we

go from here, but i think -- and earlier this week people that watch this network heard from carey dunne, one of the original prosecutors. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> helped secure the guilty plea of allen weisselberg. you know, he mentioned don't let this moment pass in time, the fact that we were able to prove this there was a tax fraud scheme at the trump organization, and don't let it slip by that we were able to convict its cfo, allen weisselberg. i thought that was an interesting. >> i was about to say -- no, it is so interesting because neither -- you guys aren't political brains, but in the political world, it deprives trump of his entire brand that he ran on successfully in '16. >> that's an interesting point. some legal observers may say certainly andrew of all people has experience with this in the mueller investigation, they were able to secure so many guilty pleas in that.

>> right. >> but people played to the jury's conviction of paul manafort on a number of counts, and people point to the jury's conviction of the trump organization saying don't believe the prosecutors. >> right. people like me. >> don't believe the judge. believe a jury of your peers who independently looked at this, weighed the evidence in front of them, and during a trial we typically get a lot more information out because a lot of information is elicited in testimony or evidence presented to the jury. so some people look at that and say let that be an independent test of these investigations that that is an important component to it, not just the overwhelming weight that sometimes prosecutors can bring. >> andrew, what do you think? >> in reading the tea leaves, and none better than tom, one card that alvin bragg may play now that weisselberg, who is 75 years old and is doing not a

long time but five months in rikers, a place where i don't think any of us would want to spend one day, so he is now going to be in jail and e, and there is evidence laid out by letitia james in the civil case that implicates allen weisselberg in a separate additional crime in connection with the trump organization. one of the things i'll be interested to see is whether there are charges brought on that. the evidence laid out by letitia james admittedly in a civil complaint sets a different standard, seems quite compelling about his lying in a very blatant way to an outside investor and insurer with respect to the trump organization. so if there are additional charges and you're 75 years old and you're already in jail, you're thinking how do i get out. >> yeah. >> so i will be interested in

that. the other thing which i think has a federal connection, which is the d.a. has consistently called out in its filings and. the a.g. in new york has called out in her filings the fact that there are federal tax charges here. it is unusual to see that being laid out in a state case saying, by the way, everything that we're doing can be done as well at the federal level because this wasn't just a local crime. and one of the things that's sort of unusual is that we haven't seen any movement at all, any sort of acknowledgment at the federal level that that is being investigated. so i'd be interested in -- whether tom has any information on this or what you think about those potential abilities to go forward. >> okay. we are interested to hear the answer to that. we didn't ask you stay for two blocks. we need you to stay for two blocks. andrew, we need another one from

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♪♪ giorgio, look. the peanut butter box is here. ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds. it's not peanut butter. i know, i know. but every time the box comes, we get the peanut butter. yes, because mom takes the meds out of the box and puts them in the peanut butter. sounds like we're getting peanut butter. yes, but that is the chewy pharmacy box. ♪ the peanut butter box is here. ♪ ♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ alright, i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. we're back with tom winter and andrew weissmann. a four-part question was posed. you have time to respond. >> always good when a former federal prosecutor asks questions. >> i prefer it. >> i like it the other way around. andrew plays up the federal investigation or the referral to federal prosecutors in new york. i think it's interesting that when the attorney general

appointed a special counsel to look at not just one thing, look at the mar-a-lago documents, to look at january 6th, did not include any sort of a probe into federal taxes. there was a lot of information that federal prosecutors in new york elicited in the stormy daniels payments, the cohen investigation. it's interesting it wasn't included. i don't think it's too far to go along this path with a little bit of knowledge here that the fact that it wasn't included into that means that maybe they just don't have enough to take off from a federal level a potential case against the former president on that end. so i think that's an important -- you know, one, an important note there. as far as what andrew brings up with respect to weisselberg and additional things that were raised during the a.g. civil suit, certainly a potential there. i don't have any reporting that indicates one way or the other whether that's something that could potentially happen. obviously it was asked at the press conference today and the

d.a. chose not to answer it. we'll have to see where that goes from an investigative standpoint. >> unbelievable that weisselberg is at rikers. these pieces have fallen where they have, that's stunning. tom winter, andrew weissmann, always a privilege when you are asking the questions, not me. thank you both. ahead for us, a stunning admission out loud from a republican official bragging about suppressing the african american vote in a key battleground state in america. the next hour starts after quick break. don't go anywhere.

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i think it's important for people to realize that all of the time and attention people focus on voter suppression and election subversion in the months leading up to election are not the only time that this is going on. this is going on day in, day out, year in, year out, whether there is something else dominating the news or not. in wisconsin, there's a republican elected official or appointed official who took credit for suppressing black voters in milwaukee. so we're seeing lots of different ways that this is playing out. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. he was reminding all of us there is no off-season, no down time in the ongoing fight for vote rights in the united states. it is an ongoing generational struggle, so utterly foundational, the health and safety of our democracy, and it

is being waged every day, every hour, in just about every corner in our country. put simply, the other side, republicans are right now in the midst of a slow-moving away from the headlines but still brazen insurrection of sorts. let's shine a light on it. you heard our friend point a finger straight at the latest, most explicit example of what we're talking about. in an email, something typed and sent to 17,000 people last month, robert spindel, a republican member of wisconsin's bipartisan election commission, for r for goodness' sake, bragged about a decrease in turnout among black voters in the heavily blue milwaukee. from that written text, the email, "we can be especially proud of the city of milwaukee. 80.2% democratic vote casting 37,000 less votes than castn the 2018 election with the major reduction happening in the

ovc areas." he told the associated press he wasn't bragging about voter suppression, which is a tricky piece to make for him given that he did brag about it in writing, an adage comes to mind when someone says something in writing, believe them. and spindell was one of donald trump's big electors in wisconsin. there's that. he faces three lawsuits for that separate scheme. but this isn't about a twisted human. it's a story about an insidious movement, a mind-set of which robert spindell is just a part of. it's a story that necessitates the fundamental question, just what kind of democracy do we want to be when we grow up? one where we cheer and try to manufacture conditions for low voter turnout?

or one more in keeping with the vision laid out by the great man our country will collectively honor on monday, dr. martin luther king jr., who once said, "so long as i do not firmly and irrevocably do not have a vote, my mind is made up for me. i cannot live as democratic citizen observing the laws i helped to enact, i can only submit to the edict of others." perhaps after that, republicans may say. we have gust e guests with us. matt dowd is here. political strategist as well as an msnbc contributor. the rev al sharpton is here. he is the host of msnbc's "politics nation," the president of the national act network, which is hosting its annual mlk

day breakfast in washington on monday where president biden will be the keynote speaker. and i guess, rev, the change is on the right. i know this has always been a part of the republican coalition, but now it is so brazen, so out in the open. what do we do about that? >> i think that the only thing that will stop this is to have federal law, which is why we had the john lewis voting advancement act last year that passed the house but couldn't pass the senate, and we couldn't get the filibuster. and it's one of the things that i think we have to keep driving at. as we go into this king weekend, let's not forget that dr. king and those of that generation had to fight to get the '65 voting rights act. they did not get it with one

rally or one summer season. it was multiple acts and groups. and we must put that pressure particularly now that we have a house that is slightly majority republican, and you have a senate that's only one or two votes -- one vote really majority democrat. so when you see this bragging by this wisconsin republican, who was one of trump's guys to be a fake elector, and a state that had mandela barnes running statewide -- >> yes. >> -- which would have been huge, this is not something just out of just random racism. it's targeted racism to block mandela, to block the right to vote. we can't celebrate dr. king and not deal with continuing to fight for voting rights. i'm sure the president will be addressing that at our breakfast in monday and when he speaks in atlanta on sunday. >> let me review some of our reporting on this email. this is from our friend charlie

sikes in the bulwark. "spindell wanted to take credit for the decline, especially the decline in hispanic and black areas, claiming it was the result of a, quote, well thought out and multifaceted plan that included biting black negative commercials run at democratic candidates, a substantial and very effective republican coordinated election integrity program resulting in trained observers and extremely significant continued court litigation." i mean, this is what we have sought to unearth, all being outed by the republicans themselves who are now so proud of their voter suppression and election manipulation that they're sending mass blast emails about it. >> did you want me or cornell on this? >> cornell, you first, then you.

i'm sorry. >> keep the picture of him up there because it's much better looking. >> there's everybody. there you are. thank you. much better. i don't need to be here, but look at all of them. >> you know, this is a part of a continuum. i mean, suppressing the potential political power of blacks in this country, it goes back as old as this country is. if you look at this, this is very much within that continuum. when they pass legislation and state legislature bodies across this country, you know, making it harder to vote, you know, cutting down the number of ballot drop boxes, taking away the number of early vote days. this is all about sort of a very coordinated effort to, in fact, suppress the black secret.

you know, i'm going to be sharing some postelection analysis from the congressional black cautions, i.e., post election poll, that shows 90% of white voters in these targeted congressional districts had a wait time of less than 20 minutes. only 08% of african americans in those same districts had wait times of less than 20 minutes. so there is a concerted effort, a soft bigotry going on here that is not very -- you know, doesn't scream, it doesn't make a lot of noise, it doesn't call us names, but it is being put in place to undermine black power and democracy. look, wisconsin is very jarring because as you know, there were, what, maybe 26,000 votes that separated barnes from his republican candidate? >> mm-hmm. >> all of that vote could have been made up in wisconsin. that's the power of the black vote, and that's why they're try so hard to suppress it.

>> basel, the other pieces -- i mean, if the wait times are the soft bigotry, it seems like the loud bigotry is this part that the republican brags about, republican-paid election judges and trained observers an extremely significant continued court litigation, they're saying -- i'm not even sure if it's the legal or illegal part out loud. but all the litigation is for the purpose -- it serves the purpose of suppression. it serves the purpose of intimidation. how does that not -- how is that not getting harsher legal scrutiny? >> i really wish that it would get a lot more legal scrutiny. but this has been a long-standing tactic of people wanting to suppress the mobilization and voting patterns of african americans. legislate strategy. as long as you keep going to court, keep writing laws and keep shifting the goal posts, you'll keep this from happening,

which is having african americans exercise their vote. listen, that the point in our history, we are not just reaching a point of racial diversity, we're also at a point of racial reckoning. at this moment, all of these areas that were previously not designed in the boardrooms, the courthouses, the school buildings, voting booths, all of these place where is african americans have largely been kept out when a lot of these folks like spindell turn their heads, they will see us there. so it brings me a lot of joy knowing that, you know, he's going to wake up in the morning and watch the news and see hakeem jeffries talking or see our friend karine jean-pierre at the white house talking. this matters to all of us. it's not spatial as it used to be. you have more african americans

moving to the suburbs, more african americans in boardrooms or sitting on the bench, so you will see this ongoing and far more drastic measures and sweeping measures that try and suppress a lot of that activity. just very quickly, think about what ron desantis is doing in florida, asking colleges and universities to report back on how much money they spent on diversity. all of these attempts to take rights that belong to all of us and criminalize them when a certain segment of the population is using them for their benefit is the future that we're seeing unfold in front of us. so i'm glad he didn't use his inside voice sending that email, because it really does show the world what's taking place, as you said, every day. >> you know, there is something so reprehensible about suppressing the vote in black and brown communities becoming a

piece of the republican platform. and i don't think that should be accepted by even the most conservative white americans. i don't think -- we shouldn't just all hum along like this is just, oh, we're pro-life so we'll be fine with theth should normalized as part of being a republican now, that no white republicans think it should be -- the opposite should be universally agreed to. it should be illegal for there to be longer waits in black and brown communities. how is this now a line at republican rallies? >> i mean, because they've adapted a complete ends justifies a means approach to everything, i mean, every single thing. we've seen it in the last week or so in whatever they do, whatever their crazy house is doing in this, but they for sure do it, i mean, in strategy rooms of political campaigns now.

it used to be when i used to sit in those rooms and run those meetings, it was, okay, here's what the electorate is going to look like, how do we appeal to this electorate before us? and now republicans have made a concerted decision in this process to say we can't win if on election day the voters look like america. they made that decision. they've made that decision. we cannot win on election day, the people that show up, look like america. so instead of appealing to african americans, instead of appealing more to latinos or asian americans or whatever it happens to be, they've given up on that, and what they've decided is whatever impediments we can put in place that we're going to put in place to make the electorate look more like the way we want it, which is whiter. that's actually what their strategy is in the course of this, because they know, as i said, if you took a random

sampling of america and put them in a room and asked them which direction you wanted to go, they would not go where the republicans want to take them. so what do they do? they do whatever they can. the other thing i'll say is we thought this problem was greatly fixed by the voting rights act in the 1960s. that's almost been completely dismantled now by the u.s. supreme court in this. i have a very -- i'm very pessimistic about whether legal maneuvers will fix this. i think the supreme court has already demonstrated they have no desire to fix the voting rights, they have no desire to fix this in the course of this. in the end, it's going to be candidates, elected officials, and voters who say we're fed up with this, we want to hold our politicians accountable, we want to welcome in a multicultural democracy in the course of this, and it's going to be on the voters and the elected officials' back. one quick thing. i find it quite ironic that what

we heard out of crazy kari lake and the other nut balls in arizona after election day complaining about voting fraud and the example they gave was that republicans had to wait while machines were broken in phoenix, republicans had to wait 30 or 40 minutes to vote. think about that. they complained that voter fraud existed for republicans because they had to wait 30 or 40 minutes because machines broke, while african americans in almost every inner city in this country wait multiples of hours to vote. >> matt brought up nut balls and he's from texas. i'm going to read you this story, rev. ken paxon wants more power to prosecute election crimes. these bills in the texas legislature would give it to him. these details don't matter. the only people committing high-profile election crimes are republicans. where does the brazenness come from to look for election crimes?

>> i think the brazenness comes from the lack of accountability that we have not punished them sufficiently legally, and we've punished them at the polls. and i think that we must begin to prosecute them. they're breaking the law. we're not asking them to love us, but don't become criminals against our right to vote. and we need to vote them out of office and vote for people that will aggressively go after them. what does this country stand for? why are we fighting in the ukraine and other places talking about democracy if you can't protect black rights to vote in wisconsin, let alone mississippi and texas? and we can't be ashamed about that. and to have the republican party act like it's acceptable and even normal to have this kind of voter suppression allowable and not denounced is the

normalization of this. this is the kind of thing we need to aggressively and openly confront. >> basil, you've all been part of my coverage of the voting rights, the failed attempt, the past voting rights legislation in this country. one thing that always made me uncomfortable is people saying we'll just educate our voters. they are passing voter suppression laws. it's so unjust that major league baseball moved the all-star game when georgia passed their suppression laws. up to 430 laws making their way through 48 states. some of the signals, i guess, about working around it, i know are necessary and they yielded great results in the midterms, right? but at what point does sort of the response have to become more intense? >> well, it's far past that time

for it to become more intense because we can see the effect of what happens when you push people out of the process, right. to reeves point, it's about accountability. if people are not going to feel accountable, they'll keep doing this over and over again. maybe you hit them in the wallet wallet, maybe that helps, but denying them to run institutions certainly is a very important step in that direction. and, you know, i would also say that over the course of -- over time, as rev knows and everybody on this panel would know, you know, when you think about mobilization and teaching people how to, you know, how to vote and what to do to make a plan, we heard that a lot in 2020, it's always bother med that we don't spend as much time as we

need teaching and creating the culture of civic participation as early as possible in our young people. there's going to come a point in time when i and others are going -- we're not going to step aside but we're going to hold the next generation accountable for pursuing this work. and we need to make sure that that culture of civic engagement is taught as early as possible. we even saw that with the children affected in the parkland shooting. you saw how quickly they were able to mobilize around the issue of gun control. imagine if young people were doing that, and they are, but imagine if more were doing that across the country and saying i can't vote but the adult in my life can and take them to the polls. if we do that, then i think we have a greater impact on changing the culture at an early age. and hopefully, you know, in the next ten years we won't be talking about this. >> and there's so much room there, right? they don't vote in enough

numbers to really flex all the political muscle that they have and could have. that's why republicans want to make it next to impossible to vote in college. to be continued. basil, thank you. cornell, matt, the rev, stick around. when we come back, a brand-new report from the anti-defamation league looks at a frightening rise of anti-semitism in the u.s. and a political party that is complicit in that rise. plus, trump famously told them to stand back and stand by, and that is exactly what they didn't do, cort the opening statement in the trial of five proud boys. prosecutors say instead on january 6th they mobilized. we take a closer look at what's coming out of this explosive consequential trial. and in yet another parallel between last weekend's attack on brazil's government, the capitol insurrection, brazil's current president says some in law

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wow. i can do better! -yes you can! i can do better, too! see how easy it is to save hundreds a year on your wireless bill over t-mobile, verizon, and at&t. talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today. >> i think extremists felt emboldened. i think social media has been a super spreader of anti-semitism, and now the attitudes are following. honestly, it's a scary snapshot. it takes my breath away to think

17% of americans are telling us they are unwilling to spend time with a person who supports the jewish state. >> appalling and almost unbelievable. that was jonathan greenblatt from the anti-defamation league detailing how prevalent and how much it is surging in america to believe anti-semitism and to believe that these are the right world views. they are not. in a wide-ranging survey of more than 4,000 people, researchers found 85% of americans believe one or more anti-semitic things. people believe jews are more loyal to israel than america. 20% stay jewish americans have

too much power in america today. these have alarming consequences. a separate report found that anti-semitic incidents are up 34% in 2021 over the previous year, an average of seven a day. the numbers for 2022 will be released. they were not going in a good, promising direction. anti-semitism is mainstream by the current republican party with the twice-impeached ex-president, openly dining with anti-holocaust believers in november. you know, i guess when we talk about voter suppression of black and brown communities, i grab for why we can't have laws that make -- that would target the discrepancy between how long you have to wait in a majority/minority community and how long you wait in a white

community. i want to ask the same question about anti-semitism. but i suppose the questions we should be asking are about all the hate in people's hearts and all the vectors spreading the hate. what is the remedy? what is the brake we can put on this moment? >> wow. that's a tough within. and of course the biggest point i think of everything you said is the surge. it's not simply that these views abide but that they increase among young people. the episodes you say have now reached an all-time high since they have been charting them. but you have something like a 50% rise in people of all ages saying, you know, this old-fashioned -- i think what greenblatt's report calls fascist anti-semitism, too powerful, too insular, control wall street and the like, it feels in some way that it's part

and parcel of the whole kind of nasty anti-social kind of proliferation of views under the disgraced twice-impeached former president. but it's hard to say, are these views that were sort of embedded and now they're given kind of permission to have a bigger following. trying to prevent an age-old problem but it seems as if, you know, the more inclusive a democracy is able to be, the better off jews and vice versa. but how it's spiked in the last few years is really discouraging and stunning. >> rev, trump didn't cause everything that's broken, but his rise in republican politics and american life tracks right next to it. so we'll call them adjacent phenomenon. but i think in the asian

american community there's a spike of violence targeting them at the same time when he was concurrently callingcalling it flu, dining with holocaust deniers. there are high-profile people delivering anti-semitic monologues including on our network. it's everywhere. and people either look the other way or think we've got other problems. when do we demand a collective rejection of hate, rev? >> i think you raised the right word, collective. one of the things that i think we have to do is those of us that are not part of a group have to speak out against the bigotry and bias that a group is subjected to that may not be our group. and what we did when i was on my way to buffalo to do two of the

funerals of the blacks, the ten blacks that were killed in the hate crime in buffalo last year, just a few months ago, i called jonathan greenblatt and said, you know, they've attacked synagogues this year, asians, young lgbtq, latinos. we need to come together and denounce it against all of the haters because the anti-semitic, the anti-black, we talk about dr. king this weekend, the rabbi marched with dr. king because he understood fighting against racism and anti-semitism. when we have people in the black community saying anti-semitic things, we have to be vocal. at the hate summit i said what i said at the white house and other places. we cannot act like it's acceptable that you have bigotry against anyone. when they marched in virginia, charlottesville, about a confederate statue, a

confederate general who was fighting to keep slavery against my people the night before they marched saying jews will not replace us, they will not replace us. if there is no line between anti-semitism and racism and anti-asian and unless all of us are willing to stand up and say together that we don't deserve the platforms we're given. >> misogyny is a natural extension of the hate ideologies as well. i'm going to name names because i have them. cornell, mccarthy's ascendant members of his caucus, mike rogers, republican of alabama, matt gaetz on behalf of kevin mccarthy, so i'm guessing he's a lot of power now, he's refused to sign on to something condemning anti-semitism. marjorie taylor greene spoke at a conference hosted by nick

fuentes. she's ascendant, gaining committee assignments after losing them. paul gosar tweeted a meme on holocaust remembrance day rooted in an online culture praised by neo-nazis and white supremacists. don't take my word for it, listen to the neo-nazis in the world. they're loving the 2022-2023 republican party for now. >> i want to touch on two things. one, back to the idea of collective, but also understanding you're talk about people who were elect preponderance of the evidence they won at least a plurality of the vote in their congressional district. so we do need to talk about the collective and the collective good. and we don't have a problem in america that americans themselves can't fix. and i want us to -- i want to

really sort of dive into that idea. we don't have a problem that we as americans ourselves can't fix. and there's not a problem with our democracy that we, through the avenues of our democracy, we cannot fix those problems. you know, there's an important date here, and the next 10 to 15 years, we're going to be awfully close to the inning point where america becomes majority/minority. and we are not getting whiter as a country. so all the ghosts of our past sins are going to revisit us, and we're going to have to look them in the face as we become a majority/minority country. and so, the collective has -- as a collective -- and i'm talking, you know, middle america white voters, you have a skin in the racism game. you have a skin in the game of anti-semitism.

and until we have leaders who are really trying to connect the dots to middle americans who don't think twice about racism, and don't think twice about anti-semitism, they're not anti-semiites themselves, but that's someone else's problem, they don't think about it. we have to make sure they have skin in this game because at some point the racism is going to visit you and your family and it's going to mean a different future for your and your children. what happens to you and what happens to your children in a country where democracy no longer exists? what happens to your daughter in a country where she doesn't have the right to vote out someone who tells her what she can and can't do with her body? we as americans have the power to fix this collectively, but more of us need to understand we have skin in this racism and bigotry game. >> matt, this dominates your thoughts. i'll give you the last word. >> yeah. i was thinking as everybody spoke, and i completely agree with this, we've had this in the

soil of america since its very founding, right? this existence of every time there's some problem or somebody loses some sense of what their power is, they use of the other as the fault bearer. and leaders have done this, we've had main leaders speaking out against it, but it's in our history, in our founding, in the 1800s, it was during the civil war, in the aftermath of the civil war, it was in the 1920s and 1930s. heck, henry ford and charles lindbergh, both heros in most people's mind, were complete anti-semites. henry ford is the only person, american mentioned in hitler's "mein kampf"" if you think about that. we've had this in our soil and we've had many responsible leaders that have spoken out along the way. the problem today is the republicans who want to be viewed as i'm not anti-semitic, i support -- i support african americans or i support jews, the

problem is they refuse to kick them out of their tent. they want to say on one hand no, no, no, i'm not anti-semitic, but oh, by the way, i'll take their votes, every vote i can get from these folks in the midst of this. so that's a huge part of the problem is too often we give people a pass because we say that person's not anti-semitic. well, how did they get elected? by a bunch of racist, anti-semitic votes. they have to cut those people out and campaign in a different way. the other part i'll speak to is a huge part of this anti-semitism is so sadly and discouragingly comes from white evangelical churches. in this collective speaking out and action, not only speaking out and action, much of it has to come from our ministers and priests and pastors. i mean, at some point in time,

my family in ancient time was considered other because we were irish catholics in this, but somehow we got brought on and we're okay now, but now all of these other people that are other are not okay. it extend not only to jews and blacks and latinos and women and transgender people, it's anybody that a certain group can blame nor a problem in this country. but we have to hold our pastors and ministers, especially in the white evangelical churches accountable. one thing i always think about is jesus christ didn't die on the cross a white christian. jesus christ died on the cross on cavalry a jewish person of color. and that's what i think we have to constantly remind these white evangelical churches about. >> you're never light, always real. you make me think. thank you very much for this conversation. harry sticks around.

after the break, a state of euphoria is how prosecutors describe what members of the proud boys felt as they entered the united states capitol on january 6th. a closer look at the prosecution's case in the seditious conspiracy trial that began this week. stay with us. whatever you've got to do ♪ ♪ you've got a lovely day to do it in, that's true ♪ [ chuckling ] ♪ and i hope whatever you've got to do ♪ ♪ is something that... ♪ [ music stops ] [ beeping ] cars built with safety in mind, even for those guys. the volkswagen atlas with standard front assist. ♪ ♪ power e*trade's easy-to-use tools like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market with powerful, easy-to-use tools

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i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem. this is a left-wing problem. >> that moment from the 2020 presidential debate is now being used as evidence in a major january 6th seditious conspiracy trial for five members of the far-right-wing group the proud boys. arguments began thursday. a federal judge appointed by the ex-president says the video shows, quote, additional motive for the far-right group to keep him in power. prosecutors accused members of spearheading the riot and conspireing to use force against the transfer of presidential power, including its chairman. he said after those comment base trump, "stand being i, sir." federal prosecutor jackson mccullough said, "they did not stand back, they did not stand by," while telling the jury that

when some of the proud boys entered the capitol, it was, quote, a state of euphoria akin to when a sports team wins the big game. back with harry litman. what is your sense of the tone and tenor of the first moments and hours of this trial? >> a study in contrast. you have a sober, by-the-book presentation by prosecutors. they've got the emails. they've got the words. they've got cooperating witnesses. the five defendants, on the other hand, have made it something of a circus. during jury selection, you had two of the lawyers threaten the judge that they'll quit if certain rulings aren't reversed. you have another lawyer who turned out to represent alex jones and be temporarily disbarred, and he had to leave. so it is this kind of bordello atmosphere. i don't know if anyone's seen or heard of rachel maddow's great podcast, "ultra," but that's been a successful strategy in the past. just make it a crazy circus.

in addition, they're going to say, oh, it's the first amendment or we just kind of came together spontaneously. but the prosecution will continually parry with the -- this is what you said, let's take the effing capitol, this is what you said after it, we just did it, et cetera. i mean, it's very strong evidence of the exact charge to trying to do it by force, seditious conspiracy. >> harry, how do you -- and of course we all watched and listened to ultra and rachel was here and she's great about talking about it and sort of pulling those historical parallels to what we're all living through. it's a wonderful reference. what did we learn from the oath keepers trial that will be the same in the proud boys trial and what will be different? >> we learned these are winnable. remember, the department as a checkered history. it's the last one that did. it lost with egg on its face.

it's been about 20 years. but it's a "one foot in front of the other" charge, and it really is. this is not political rhetoric. they not only talked about storming the capitol, they did with military style training, theriault managing the whole strategy. i think it will be more similar than different. there's reason to think the proud boys are even more integrally involved with the oath keepers, the first storming of the barricade, they were more strategic. but what you've learned is, like any other criminal trial, prove the elements, intended to overthrow by force, and they certainly did use the force. and stay cool because there is going to be both -- kelly's patience will be tried, the prosecutor's patients will be tried by different antics you can expect from the five defendants. >> harry litman, thank you for

your contributions today and all week long. couldn't have done it without you. thank you so much. >> thank you so much. a pleasure to be here. >> thank you, my friend. ahead for us, just a few days ago brazil had its own january 6th moment, crisis, where supporters of its ex-president stormed government buildings. already there have been arrests, and now brazil's current president is ruling out members of his country's security force who is he says were complicit in that attack. more on those developments after a quick break. k break.

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a. just days after brazil's capital was attacked similar to what happened in our country on january 6th, 021, more curious detail are surfacing. reuters is reporting that brazil's president said securities of the member forces aided toast who ransacked the government buildings and is promising to remove supporters from president bolsonaro from their ranks. some members of the police force responsible for protecting the capitol were seen on social media taking selfies before they stormed. at least 1800 protesters were arrested after lulu ordered them

to move. just bring us up to date. what is the latest understanding of how long this was planned, what if any role any american pro-stump people played and what is the state of holding them accountable? >> it's a huge investigation like you said. there's more than 1,800 people arrested, a lot of them are released for humanitarian reasons but talking about a very wide-ranging investigation so they're just at the beginning of it. i think at first there was a lot of shock. you see these images of how people were able to get into the three buildings. the major center of government in brasilia and crashed through those glass windows and just ransacked the place. a lot of people are over the shock and evaluating the losses and damage and also trying to look beyond those that were just arrested. they want to find out who

financed this. they want to find out if there were any masterminds. that's where the investigation is centering. >> obviously that's where our investigation has sort of halted in terms of what we know. congress pursued the people who masterminded it but so far doj has not. what structural limitations exist in brazil. will they get to the masterminds there? >> i think what's interesting is just the way this is characterized in brazil right now. there is no mincing of words. president lula says he believes people opened the door, actually aids, colluded with these people to let them in. they're called -- [ speaking non-english ] people trying to overthrow the government. they're called terrorists. anti-democratic acts is what they've done and the supreme court justice who leads the investigation and issues arrest warrants right away, they're even now calling for an investigation of the former

president bolsonaro to see if he had any role in it so things seem to be moving quickly. whether there is enough institutional material and resources to be able to get to what they need to do for sump a huge investigation. so many people, so many elements, right now they think they have about more than 50 people who financed the buses that brought people here. there's all sorts of different layers that they have to reach. we'll see if they have the resources to do such an extensive investigation and how long it will take. >> just amazing. it's extraordinary, carrie kahn, thank you for your reporting and spending time with us. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ur heart to entresto. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema,

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all of us collectively. this coming thursday, january 19th. that is when janet yellen says the u.s. will reach its debt limit in a letter to mccarthy yellen said after the 19th, the treasury department will be, quote certain ordinary measures. they will allow the government to buy time to pass a debt limit increase. they can irreparable harm. we'll be watching and covering what it actually does. we'll be right back.

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