a person who might have been motivated by anger over nonexistent fraud in his landslide november loss. pena stands accused of conspiring with and paying four men to carry out four shootings at albuquerque area homes of two county commissioners and two state legislators. among his alleged targets, homes belonging to officials with whom pena met after his election loss in his attempts to overturn the results. quite thankfully, no one was hurt but that does little to ease the shock. one of the bullets flew through a 10-year-old girl's bedroom. here's albuquerque's mayor after the arrest. >> this situation today i think obviously points out that the shootings were orchestrated, they were dangerous attacks not only to these individuals, which is personally the most terrifying for them, but fundamentally also to democracy. that is why this is so terrible. this type of radicalism is a threat to our nation and it has

made its way to our doorstep right here in aalbuquerque, new mexico. fundamentally at the end of the day this was about a right-wing radical, an election denier who was arrested today, and someone who did the worst imaginable thing you can do when you have a political disagreement, which is turn that to violence. >> wow. saddest of all perhaps is that such incidents of dangerous domestic extremism are starting to feel routine in our country. amid a sharp rise to threats of public officials over the last few years, are any of us even surprised in what plays out almost every day. what did republicans expect or want when they spent the last few years talking like this. >> we're not allowed to punch back anymore. i love the old days. you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? they'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks. >> i'm eric grietens, navy

s.e.a.l. and today we're going rino hunting. >> now today we face the greats danger we have ever faced. the militant left wing in our country has become the enemy within. >> let's have trial by combat. >> today is the day american patriots start taking down names and kicking ass. >> the real world consequences of all that, of that violent rhetoric. we see it all around us. they trace back to only one party. there's only one political movement, really only one man. that's where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters an friends. nbc news garrett haake is here. also frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. eddie is back. eddie glaude and michigan secretary of state jocelyn

benson joins us. i want to start with you, madam secretary. you've been so frank about the threats that you and your family have faced and there was just something reminiscent. i know the january 6 select committee played the footage of the rioters outside of your home. i know you testified to being inside with your young child. one of the shootings in new mexico involved a real bullet that went into the real bedroom of a real 10-year-old. what was this news like for you to process? >> it was chilling, and it was all too familiar. it really underscores how this status quo is unsustainable and unacceptable. we should not and we need to stop being surprised when violent threats and this hateful rhetoric transcends into hateful actions. it has happened over and over and over again as a direct extension of the lies and falsehoods that many intentionally and knowingly spread about our elections and

our democracy. this is not who we are, it's not who we continue to be, and we need folks on both sides of the aisle to say enough is enough. >> do you see that happening on both sides of the aisle, people saying enough is enough, madam secretary? >> no, not to the extent we need it to. and despite the fact that voters spoke clearly last november and said enough is enough, rejecting candidates who spewed these lies and this hateful rhetoric. still, we see so many trying to gain power and raise money and just gain attention by spreading this misinformation. so, you know, we also need to see consequences. it's not enough to just expect people to change. so, for example, today we announced in michigan we're going to try to pass legislation to increase the penalties for threatening, harassing, doxxing election officials or election workers and we really just need to take this seriously from a legal standpoint as well as demand more and demand better from all of our leaders.

>> frank figliuzzi, i just want to put some dots on the board and have you give us your analysis of how they're connected. january 6th, hundreds now, maybe up to a thousand rioters prosecuted for their violent act and the abuse and physical abuse they carried out against law enforcement officials. a shooter, an fbi field office after the court-approved mar-a-lago search. the attack on speaker pelosi's new mexico. >> all of them related, all of them linked, all of them instigated and the logical outcome of five years or more of demonizing the other, of making it okay if you don't like what happened politically, if the election didn't come out your way, it's okay to storm the capitol. it's okay to challenge until

every judge in your state has said there's no challenge to be had. it's okay for kari lake in arizona to still to this day claim that she won and it's rigged. and it's all been generated largely by one individual, who really has to be the one to come out and say i condemn this kind of violence. i don't stand for this anymore. and it's not going to happen. there's -- quite the opposite will happen here. he feeds on this. it strengthens him. he continues to dupe people literally into losing their freedom or even their life at the hands of law enforcement because they're acting out violently because of some proverbial chip that's been implanted in their head that says violence is okay because those people over there are evil. they have been demonized. and that's what happened. you know, as the police interrogate this individual in new mexico, he's likely to swear up and down that it's all rigged. the system is rigged against

him. and, therefore, it's justified to do what he did. but i'm going to get on my soap box real briefly here and so i've given you the warning, here it comes. this is domestic terrorism. what happened in new mexico is domestic terrorism. and we still, nicolle, you know what i'm going to say, to this day don't have a federal domestic terrorism law. this guy is the poster child for why we need a federal domestic terrorism law. this is politically based violence. for those who say, wait a minute, we successfully have gone after oath keepers leaders and charged proud boys leaders with seditious conspiracy, what's wrong with that? what's wrong with that is those laws don't match what happened in new mexico. what this guy did was politically motivated terrorism, but it wasn't against the u.s. federal government. so this is the example of why we need a domestic terrorism statute. >> frank, you can stay on your soap box for a second. you might need to be there to answer this question, maybe not.

so the new mexico mayor lists what this is. he says this is, quote, right-wing radical election denial and it has come to our community. is it coming to every community? is anyone immune? >> there's no evidence that it's limited to any one particular state. we can go state after state, election after election where people who have lost claim it was rigged and then go after people. fulton county, georgia, look at what happened to the election workers there at their homes. eric swalwell, some guy has just been fired for threatening the life of congressman eric swalwell because he doesn't like his politics. it's everywhere. plot to kidnap the governor in michigan because of her political decision-making. it's -- no one is immune from this. and from a law enforcement perspective it creates a real challenge. essentially what has to happen is local and state law enforcement have to monitor, and by the way they're not equipped to do it, elections to see,

okay, this guy who lost, has he lost his mind? they have to almost provide defensive briefings to county and state election officials saying if someone comes to your home and complains about the rigged election, we need to know about that because we need to monitor the possibility of a violent threat. this changes the dynamic for local and state law enforcement. >> and let me be clear, the victims aren't all democratic officials. let me just show you, garrett, this is some of the footage created by the january 6 select committee in preparation for their public hearings. this is a mix of officials that span the ideological spectrum being targeted with political violence. >> there is nowhere i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states to target you? >> wishing death upon me, telling me that i'll be in jail

with my mother and saying things like be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> when i saw the gun, i knew i had to get close. and at the same time, on some of these we had a daughter who is gravely ill who is upset by what was happening outside. >> garrett, it's not a who done it, donald trump did it. donald trump, mitch mcconnell, kevin mccarthy made all those people human targets for political violence. what's the response today? >> well, from the right it's -- there's been basically none. look, i think you have to look at this from a slightly broader perspective. i mean trump kind of has an immediate triggering effect on

this. but if you look at the right-wing ecosystem when it comes to political violence, generally there's a much more challenging denationaldedynamic play. the idea that it's not just any one election that's been triggered by fraud but that the very essence of democracy is being taken away from you combined with this kind of second amendment absolutism and fettishization of guns. i'm looking at the warrant for the arrest of solomon pena. one of his accomplices is sitting at a table with seven or eight guns kind of arrayed in front of him. the combination of that kind of political apocalyptic viewpoint and an attitude towards firearms that says we're going to have them, we're going to have a bunch, we're going to carry them with us everywhere we go, creates the environment where anybody -- you know, there are unstable people all across the political spectrum. but you check those other two

boxes, you create the environment in which this situation happens. if you add someone like donald trump to that, you do create a very dangerous and difficult situation. to build on frank's point, you know, this is a case where solomon pena lost his election by 50 percentage points. if this was a rigging, it was a very, very effective rigging. there's no opportunity for law enforcement to say this is the case where we should watch out that someone might be an election denier. this wasn't one that was close that somebody might be worried about a ballot box being stuffed. this is not the kind of thing that would be on that radar should local police departments have radar finely tuned enough to pick this up. it is a pervasive problem. there were 9,000 recorded threats against members of congress in 2021, the last complete year we had the numbers. that's more than 25 threats a day that are reported to the capitol police. who knows how many more go beyond that. the scope of this problem is massive.

and there's not a good handle on it from a law enforcement perspective or political perspective right now. >> kevin mccarthy's first move as speaker was to remove eric swalwell and adam schiff and one other democrat from their committees. i'm not going to play it again because we covered this last week, but the death threat sent to swalwell which he distributed from his twitter feed went like this. quote, i hope your family is raped and murdered and i hope you get tied to the back of a truck and drug 10,000 miles until your body is represented to pieces, you scum. i wish i saw you in person. i'd break your bleep face so fast you'd have plastic surgery and never look the same again, end quote. there's a direct line between the political targeting that the right is doing and the death threats those members are getting. does the right have a proposed solution for making sure none of the threats are actualized, garrett? >> not that i'm aware of. i will just say there are plenty

of republican members who are the targets of threats as well. the ones that swalwell put forward are particularly egregious, but it is pervasive around the building. but the answer to your question in short is no. everyone -- the language that gets used around this when it's sort of your party who is the bad guy of the moment tends to be someone coming out and saying i abhor violence of all types. there shouldn't be violence of any type. it's very difficult in the kind of violence we're talking about here and the kind of threats we're talking about here for republican lawmakers in particular to say i abhor and reject this kind of threat, this kind of rhetoric. it is a cultural problem that is particularly acute on that side of the aisle. to which i've heard no committed effort to kind of fix it beyond a general sense of we've got to tone it down, which lasts as long as, you know, any given political moment but has not been committed to in this

building as long as i've been here. >> but i want to drill down. there is an example when congressman scalise was shot, what was the response from the two parties? was there a distinction? >> i mean there was, i think, a rallying around congressman scalise and a refusal to accept that kind of violence. you saw bernie sanders, of whom the shooter at that case was someone who had described himself as a supporter of bernie sanders, come out and say he rejected that. he rejected the violence, he distanced himself from it. there is a way to talk about this in a politically honest way if you're so inclined. but if you want to have a broader discussion about the political violence and the point you're getting at, there's not been a good faith effort on the right, at least among elected republicans, to sit down and say what is the issue with this kind of violence among our supporters and how do we tone it down? that conversation is not happen, at least not in public. >> and just to underscore this, this is of course where i was

going, garrett. when paul pelosi was attacked, were there statements put out by elected republicans condemning the attack, the attacker, and the ideology he adhered to or the new mexico shooter or the insurrectionists for that matter? >> on the pelosi point, i think two out of the three are true. there are absolutely statements put out condemning the attack, condemning the attacker. the question on the ideology was an attempt to muddy the waters and talk about the suspect in the pelosi case has political beliefs that don't fit neatly into a pure republican, pure democrat sort of where we look at the political spectrum. i think there was an effort again to make that point less central to the story than other points as opposed to saying what is more introspective desire and what is our role in this and how do we address it. >> eddie, i guess the broader landscape also includes this. when paul pelosi was attacked,

elon musk and donald trump, two republicans or conservatives or whoever wants to claim them today with the biggest megaphones perpetrated conspiracy theories about both paul pelosi and the nature of the brutal attack against him, which was an assassination attempt against speaker pelosi who was in the presidential line of succession. when congressman scalise was tragically shot and wounded, and i remember this at the time and i've gone back and checked. there was universal condemnation of political violence and a genuine rejection of anyone who would resort to violence. that doesn't happen on the right. full stop. they do not reject violence. in some instances they cheer it. in manyins they instigate it. >> the evidence seems to suggest as much. i think it's really important for us not to engage in a kind of -- an attempt to be balanced in this regard.

there is a political party that has been overrun by forces that aren't committed to democracy. and i think at the heart of it, nicolle, there are those who to believe the current political debate represents an existential threat. the mayor of albuquerque said what happens when reasoned disagreement morphs into violence. you can tell a story of our journey from crossfire to this, where we are not engaging in a kind of reasonable exchange among people who disagree and we work it out through the peaceful process of politics. politics has become in some ways a kind of battle between enemies. there's a group among us, a party among us, who actually understands that in a very specific sort of way. and i want to echo something that garrett said. he wanted us to understand the broader context. there was dry kindling, dry kindling and donald trump threw fire on that kindling. we can tell the story of the

branch davidians, we can tell the story of a generalized sense of doubt of the government's role. there's been a rhetoric for the last 40 years that has kind of laid the foundation for this. but at the heart of it is there are a group of americans who believe that our disagreement represent an existential threat to the country and they're willing to kill and die on behalf of their view of what the country should be and how we should move forward. >> and, frank, i just want you to pick up on a point made by eddie and a point made by garrett. garrett made the point of this sort of axis of danger, if you will, an affinity for the second amendment and the collection and hoarding of guns, an affinity for conspiracy theories, a belief in adherence to election denialism. and what eddie is getting at, that our political opponents aren't people with whom we disagree on the national defense or economic policy, but they are

our mortal enemies. >> essential points here by both eddie and garrett. this notion of we're in a culture war, it's an existential threat to everything we know and stand for and believe. let's not forget the rally cry of donald trump on january 6, something like unless we fight like hell, we're not going to have a country anymore. that's what it's come down to. i posted on twitter the other day a bumper sticker i saw on a pickup truck right in front of me in traffic. it said simply i support trump and i carry a gun. that's the platform, right there. that's who i am. i'm armed and i'm trump. and that -- i've never seen a more succinct disstillation of that bumper sticker on the back of that pickup truck. of course you will fight like hell for your country, yes, if you believe that and have been

suckered into believing it. i can't stop drawing the comparison to my work in international counterterrorism. the -- people are infidels and therefore they are less than human and okay to enact violence against them because there will be some reward in the end. that's what's happening right here in our country. >> madam secretary, i want to give you the last word and then sneak in a quick break. i just woman want to put up what it looked like outside of your house. >> stop the steal! stop the steal! stop the steal! you're a threat to democracy! you're a threat to free and honest elections! >> we love our rights and our freedom! >> you're a tyrant! you're a felon and you must turn yourself in to authorities immediately! >> it's not make believe.

this is not abstract. this is not what if. this happened. now, since that happened you've won a presidential citizens award. you also share a medal of freedom with president zelenskyy. that doesn't change the fact that outside your house where your child lives that was happening. what is that like? >> it's harrowing and yet at the same time emboldening because i was elected to do a job and protect every voice and every vote in this state and i will proudly do that. that's what democracy requires. so you use moments like that, though chilling, to become stronger and more dedicated and devoted to the work. at the same time, it is -- i think will be a stain on this moment in history that there's not unanimity outcry in response to moments like those. mine was just one of many that have happened to election officials all around this country at the state and local level. if there's anything we can be united around in this moment, it should be the universal condemnation of these types of

threats against the very people who simply -- our simple job as professionals is to make sure every voice is counted and every voice is heard. there's not that unanimous outcry condemning these types of things from our elected leaders is really one of the reasons why it continues. >> no one is going anywhere. when we come back, much more on this dangerous turn that our politics have taken with the republican party today has done to elevate extremist lawmakers, marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar. reaction from the hill. plus journalists who have spent time with insiders from two different administrations will join us. they chronicle how those close to the west wing are struggling to hold the line in this urgent time for our democracy. the stormy daniels hush money payments are back in the news today. michael cohen was behind closed doors with the manhattan

district attorney. what we know about where this next chapter might be heading. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

one of the more alarming aspects of all of this, this current climate of a rise in political violence and a rise in violent rhetoric is that the problem is getting worse, not better. some of the people who disseminate the most vitriolic things are being elevated, not castaway. today we learned house republicans assigned marjorie

taylor greene and paul gsar to serve on committees. democrats censured gosar for posting online a video that pictured him killing congressman alexandria ocasio-cortez. now he's back on a committee. so is marjorie taylor greene, who got thrown out of her committee assignments for spreading dangerous and racist conspiracy theories on social media. we're back with garrett haake, frank figliuzzifigliuzzi, eddie and jocelyn benson. all i know about paul gosar is his family came on and warned the country about him. marjorie taylor greene has arased school shooting survivors, including those of parkland. she's questioned that school shootings are real. she argued that the charlottesville rally was an inside job to further the agenda of elites. he endorsed the execution of democrats. she speculated that the 2018

california wildfires were started by a laser beam in space controlled by jews. she questioned the 9/11 attack. she's endorsed qanon conspiracies, more recently in the 1/6 select committee transcript she describes the qanon followers as, quote, my people. and now, garrett, tell us what committee she's on? >> she'll be on oversight committee and the department -- or the homeland security committee. so she will be much busier in this congress than she was in the last. >> garrett, tell me about the strategy of putting paul gosar and marjorie taylor greene -- are they both back on committees? >> they are both back on committees. gos. -- gosar goes back to natural resources and the other escapes me. what kevin mccarthy would say if he were standing in my shoes right now is that these people were both re-elected. in gosar's case, i think he was

unopposed. these were people who were punished in the last congress. gosar taken down into the well of the house and censured and then they were sent back here by their voters. so the republican-controlled congress in many ways felt like they are back, they are here to do a job. their sins were behind them to the degree that they felt that they were sins at all and they were going to get seated on committees. greene is perhaps the more interesting case because of the way that she politically realigned herself with leadership in between the last congress and this one. we talked about this during the speaker's race fight here, that she went from someone who was very much an outsider, an outside player and kind of a thorn in kevin mccarthy's side to perhaps his biggest advocate among the far right sort of most pro trump elements of the republican conference. and you see her being rewarded here. she made a political calculation that she could be an asset to leadership and that could assist her as well. it seems very clearly to have paid off.

now, it doesn't change her rhetoric. this isn't a kinder, gentler marjorie taylor greene. she tweeted today comparing the justice department investigation of donald trump to saddam hussein style tactics but is doing it from a much cozier position from the republican leadership and she'll be central in some of the fights we know are coming with this conference. their investigation into the biden administration and these classified documents and a potential impeachment of alejandro mayorkas which she would have a front row seat for. >> eddie glaude, i don't even know what to say. homeland security, i think, connotes participation in protecting the homeland. the list that i ran off of things she's associated herself with, these aren't the results of investigative journalism, this was a glance at her twitter feed questioning school shootings, calling charlottes villain inside job, promoting

conspiracies, talking about executing democrats. we'll put the wildfires in the stupid category, but the rest are just downright dangerous. what does it say? what is kevin mccarthy telling his voters? >> that he will reward this kind of nonsense. and remember what she said about january 6th. that she would organize it, they would have came, they would have been successful and they would have came with guns or something like that. i used to think she was as crazy as a bed bug, but she might be as smart as a fox. what we see is that there's a kind of orientation that's being rewarded here and it speaks volumes about who kevin mccarthy is and who the republican party is. let me say this. i was sitting here thinking about this as we were talking about in the last segment and now this. nicolle, we're not going to ever change until we hold the people we love accountable.

now, there's the politics of it all. there's what kevin mccarthy is doing. he's a spineless politician. but i was thinking about this, that people who know better eat dinner with folk. they love them dearly and they know they hold these noxious views. they know they're out there doing this stuff. and they're not doing anything. they're not saying anything because they love them. and it seems to me until we get at that level of the intimate nature of this, i don't know how we resolve it. does that make sense or am i being unnecessarily moral here? >> no, look, i think you and garrett are making a similar point, right? to garrett's point, they were re-elected after being kicked off their committees. to your point, until this is an issue in the community, at the firehouse, at the fourth of july parade, at the dinner table with their immediate family, we might

not be able to effect any change at all. right, eddie? >> absolutely, it seems to me. it's those moments when people who are not committed to this kind of ideological nonsense, but who stand by and stand by silently because they love the folk. because they're part of their neighborhood. and it seems to me it's that component. the 75 million who voted for donald trump, fine. the third of that number that are committed to violence, okay. but i'm thinking about all of those folk who are -- who circle around this who aren't willing to come out and say dammit, enough is enough because they love folk. and the price of the love is the silence. it has been the case, nicolle, since the founding of the country. i know that's too abstract but i'm trying to get at something here, but i don't know.

>> listen, frank, i think eddie is touching on something that not one, not two, but three former national security officials said to me. as 1/6 was going on, they were trying to get me on the air. i said i have to understand what i'm covering. i talked to a former senior intelligence official, former national security advisor and a former pentagon official. and he said nothing you say will do anything about what you're watching and covering, but you need to understand that to break through to those people outside the capitol and inside the capitol, they need to hear it from inside their ranks. it is a classic counterextremism problem we have in our country. there is not a single example of successful counterextremism that comes from outside extremist communities. so i guess my question for you, frank, is where does this start if kevin mccarthy is elevating marjorie taylor greene? >> you've hit it on the head. eddie may not -- may or may not what he just articulated, but he

articulated a counterradicalization strategy which is all about relationships. those relationships as you said, nicolle, have to be the ones immediately around you. preferably people who have come out of the mindset that you are stuck in right now. and the battle that we're going to see here and the less likely this is ever going to happen in the near term is because kevin mccarthy may or may not love gosar or love marjorie taylor greene, but you know what, he needed them to become the speaker. he certainly needed marjorie taylor greene, and that means she owns him. what's the likelihood that he's going to chastise her for coming out from qanon nonsense in the middle of a homeland security committee meeting? what's the likelihood he'll say knock it off when she talks about italian satellites in the middle of a homeland security meeting? zero. they need each other. it's a mutually parasightic

relationship and we're in trouble when she's sitting on the homeland security committee. >> madam secretary, i'll give you the last word. >> we have to remember that voters have agency here too. yes, some of these folks were elected out of hypergerrymandered districts but that doesn't mean that we can't go there, go to communities where people have been misled by those they trust and talk to those folks and ensure that they know they have agency and power to reflect what voters overwhelmingly said in november of 2022, which is that we're tired of this hateful rhetoric. we're tired of this extremist misinformation philosophy. we want people instead to just get things done and put politics aside and come together. so we all have to have those conversations. we all have to go where people have been misled and have those conversations and not just us as leaders, as election officials, but voters as well. i think if we can all do that, we can push those who push others to emerge out of this

moment. perhaps not just healthy and intact, but maybe with a stronger democracy than ever before. >> wouldn't that be amazing? garrett haake, for your extraordinary coverage of that building which seems like the center of the political universe these days, thank you so much for spending so much time with us. frank figliuzzi, eddie glaude and secretary jocelyn benson, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. we are so grategrateful. what happens when planning for the end of democracy as we know it is on a presidential to do list. two reporters who spent time in two very different white houses on the challenge of holding the line. that conversation is next. enge line that conversation is next. ♪ ow, ow ♪ ♪ with a big, fresh carrot ♪ ♪ and a whole lot of cheese ♪ ♪ and the mirror from your van is halfway down the street ♪ ♪ well, you can say that -- ♪ wait, what? i said, "someone just clipped the side view mirror right off the delivery van." when owning a small business gets real,

progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? why, you were fixin' to peel me. [ laughter ] i was born here, i'm from here, and i'm never leaving here. i'm a new york hotel. yeah, i'm tall - 563 feet 2 inches. i'm on top of the world. i'm looking for someone who needs a weekend in the city, who likes being in the middle of it all. you hungry? i know a place, and a few others nearby. it's the city that never sleeps. but hey, if you need a last-minute spot, i got you covered. if your business kept on employees through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health.

ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... the tightness, stinging... the pain. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®, most people saw 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. the majority of people saw 90% clearer skin even at 5 years. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant®. with tremfya®. ask your doctor about tremfya® today.

♪ what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things.

because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. i joseph robinette biden jr. do solemnly swear -- >> that i will faithfully execute. >> that i will faithfully execute. >> the office of president of the united states. >> the office of president of the united states. >> and will to the best of my ability. >> and will to the best of my ability. >> preserve, protect and defend. >> preserve, protect and defend. >> the constitution of the united states. >> the constitution of the united states. >> so help you god. >> so help me god. >> congratulations, mr. president. ♪♪ something that almost didn't happen. if you listen carefully underneath "hail to the chief" you can almost hear it, the

collective sigh of relief because that transfer of power will make any other in modern american history almost didn't happen, peacefully or otherwise. just two weeks earlier, the disgraced, twice impeached ex-president had incited a violent and deadly attack on the capitol, with the intention of disrupting an american tradition. it's a point of pride for those who live in the united states of america, a tradition that is admired and envied the world over. >> at the heart of our republic is the guarantee of the peaceful transfer of power. standing on the west front of the capitol in 1981, president ronald reagan described it this way. the orderly transfer of authority is called for in the constitution, routinely takes place as it has for almost two centuries, and few of us stop to think how unique we really are. in the eyes of many in the world, this every four-year ceremony that we accept as normal is nothing less than a

miracle. every president in our history has defended this orderly transfer of authority except one. >> except one. now veteran reporter chris whipple is out with some incredible new reporting on the extreme steps the incoming biden administration took behind the scenes to prepare for the possibility that trump would attempt a military-style coup in order to block the peaceful transfer of power. biden's team anticipated obstruction, delays in getting personnel in place, and a concerted effort to impede the transfer of power. and much worse. they prepared for, quote, unconventional challenges, of which there were too many to count, including this ominous possibility, quote, an increase in the level and intensity of social protesting and government response. according to biden's transition chairman, that was the, quote, euphemism of the year, government response was code for trump sending troops into the

streets, perhaps declaring martial law. no one in the biden camp would say publicly that they feared trump might stage a coup, but privately they were taking precautions. is it something we were concerned about and thought about, had plans about? absolutely. we had a bunch of smart people sitting around a table night and day saying, okay, what are the plans? one of the key questions was what's going to happen with trump and the military? you know you're in trouble when doomsday planning for a possible military coup by the outgoing president ends up on your to do list. chris whipple spent two years interviewing president biden's inner circle, including biden's chief of staff, ron klain. also joining us "new york times" reporter mike schmidt is out with an exhaustive reporting on donald trump's chief of staff, john kelly. they are two men working for two very different presidents but who both share the same sense

foreboding about our country. mike schmidt is back with us, "new york times" book is out in paper book and it's also out today. thank you both for being here. >> good to be with you. >> take me through this book. >> well, you began -- it begins with the transition. the most fraught and most dangerous transition since the civil war and the bloodiest as it turned out. it was absolutely extraordinary. i talked to bob bauer, who was the legal counsel for the transition. he's the one who described 70 different eventualities they were preparing for, including -- they stopped at 70 because that was all they could really deal with. but the most dangerous of which would have been a military coup. but while all that was going on, nicolle, the really

extraordinary thing was this untold story i came across of a trump staffer, an obscure deputy white house chief of staff, a new zealander who used to work for mitt romney. he was in charge of his transition. wound up at the trump white house. he wasn't crazy about trump. but he stayed until january 6th and beyond. and he was the guy who quietly kept the wheels of the transition turning in a kind of subrosa operation under trump's nose and without his knowledge. it's an extraordinary story. he had people like josh bolton, the former bush chief of staff, and others talking to him as kind of a lifeline, talking him off the ledge. telling him you cannot quit because otherwise we won't have a transfer of power. so it's an amazing story. and that's -- those are the first few chapters of the book. i go on to talk about the first two years of the biden white

house, which i really see as a kid of tale of two presidencies. the first year defined by the afghanistan debacle. the second year defined by ukraine and all of his legislative success. so anyway, it's a thriller, i think. >> it's such an incredible -- it gives me chills hearing about these 70 plans. but this reporting that you have about this very quiet person keeping the wheels turning who others -- john bolton was the national security advisor -- >> josh bolton from the bush white house. >> the bush chief of staff. >> so there's already a tie to john kelly, who's former military friends and colleagues and peers want him there to keep this ship on the rudder. it's the same sort of perilous moment for the country that you report in your reporting. >> it's interesting how he was describing the two years of the biden presidency as the tale of two presidencies. and look, there's a tale of two

presidencies with trump. the first two years a lot of stuff went wrong. it is by no means a textbook presidency. but it's different than the second two years. it's different than 2019 and 2020 in what we saw. and it was truly an unbound trump. he did not have kelly around him anymore and kelly had sort of endured as long as he could as trump's chief of staff and took as much pain as he could to stay as long as he could and then as he's heading out the door says to trump, don't pick someone that's going to do what you want. pick someone who's going to run a process and be a true staffer to you. and trump -- >> kelly says boot licker, right? >> boot licker. and when mulvaney comes in, he says there was a view that kelly had sort of cabined trump off and had kept trump, you know, from being trump. they were going to let trump be trump. >> kelly predicted he would be

impeached if that happened. >> correct. and he then gets impeached. kelly said you're going to get impeached if you pick a boot licker. and kelly was right. and, look, the first two years of trump' presidency, they're not -- they're not great two years of anything. there's a lot of horrific stuff that went on. but it's different than the last two years. it's especially different than the final weeks of the presidency. >> at least there's tension and someone trying to pull him off the ledge. ukraine is the echo. the first thing trump does after kelly leaves is try to extort the president of ukraine, zelenskyy, for dirt on joe biden. you write about -- it comes roaring back into the story, the american story and the story of the american presidency with joe biden's leadership on the issue. talk about that. >> yeah. ukraineissue. talk about that. >> ukraine along with covid and facing down maga will be the defining test of biden's presidency. but ukraine most of all, because it was a moment of absolute

peril for an invasion of democracy in the heart of europe with the risk that it would spill over and the prospect of nuclear war. and joe biden, i think, was uniquely prepared to deal with that moment. he spent his entire career studying and preparing for a test like that. but it was closer than we realized. i mean, it was -- there was this great meeting that hasn't been reported before, a private meeting, that kamala harris had with zelenskyy on the eve of the munich security conference in which she said to him, look, they're coming for you and your family. and zelenskyy was still skeptical. i tell the story of how cia director bill burns went to see zelenskyy in ukraine before the evasion and prepared him not only for those assassination attempts but gave him the blueprint for the invasion. there's also a story -- not reported before -- about how two russian transport planes, each

with something like 150 elite russian paratroopers were flying in to a staging area to prepare for the assault on kyiv. the ukrainians blew both of them out of the sky. so the walk-up to the invasion and the execution of the ukrainian defense in the early days of the war really come back to the preparation biden and his team, including bill burns, made. >> i want to ask you about whether biden approaches -- these are issues he's dealt with his whole career on the senate foreign relations committee, but i wonder if 1/6 changed the fervor of which he wants to protect other democracies in the world. don't go anywhere. d. don't go anywhere.

the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org

to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for free speech, liberty and justice. your support is more urgently needed than ever. reproductive rights are on the line and we are looking at going backwards. we have got to be here. we've got to be strong to protect those rights. so please join the aclu now. call or go to my aclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt member card magazine and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for everyone to have a voice and equal justice.

and we will never stop because we the people, means all of us. so please call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. we are back. both of your books are reported out in a way that gives us so much information we wouldn't otherwise have, but at their core they also have this idea that nothing is preordained but for the decisions of the men and women in those rooms, things might be different. what, in your view, is the single biggest twist of fate put in motion by ron klain for this president? >> it's hard to say, but i think i am a believer, as you say, that these people -- the human beings make a big difference in

the course of history, and i think that klain has been a guy for this moment as well. obviously biden rose to the occasion with ukraine. i think nobody was better prepared than ron klain to become white house chief of staff. if you ask every living chief they will tell you he had better preparation. he worked for nine previous democratic white house chiefs. he's politically savvy. he knows biden well, for 30 years. and this is a really battened down, disciplined, on script white house most of the time. i mean, lately, not so much. so i think he's a guy for this moment as well, and it's going to be interesting to see what happens if klain moves on. those are going to be big shoes to fill, i think.

>> and in your view, what is the single biggest thing he put his hands on that would have turned out differently? >> i think it has to be north korea. it has to be the way he tried to ratchet trump back and the world back from conflict. we will never know the alternative history to what would have happened if trump continued down the path of the rhetoric that he was using both publicly and privately about what he wanted to do to north korea. and i just think that kelly saw that as the biggest problem, and when he tried to appeal to trump and said, look, thousands of people could die. it didn't work. he said, look, you can destroy the economy. it didn't work. it was only when he said, look, you can be the ultimate deal maker that trump is willing to follow his ego so far to embrace kim the way that he does. >> now we are to believe one of of the things he took with him

are the love letters between trump and -- >> arguably love letters that wouldn't have been created if kelly hadn't pushed trump as hard as he did. >> a quick footnote, a month before joe biden took office ron klain had a private zoom call with -- there were 19 living white house chiefs of staffs in total including john kelly. there were two trump chiefs on that phone call. and kelly's contribution to it was -- they were giving ron advice on what to do when he took office. and kelly's advice was, at all times follow the law and the constitution full stop. >> there you go. there you have it. thank you to both of you for being here, chris whipple, mike schmidt. their books are called "the fight of his life: inside joe biden's white house" and "donald trump v. the united states." there's still another chapter, another possible shoe to drop in the stormy daniels hush money

payment scandal. that development is next. don't go anywhere. ment is next don't go anywhere. makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities. while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market.

(vo) at wells fargo, direct deposits come up to two days early with early pay day.lps you plan your trades what if everything came two days early? (hero) have a good weekend! alright now... have a good weekend. (co-worker) but it's wednesday... (co-worker 2) see you monday! (co-worker 3) am i missing something? (hero) it's the weekend baby... see you later. (vo) like getting things two days early? when it comes to payday, you can with wells fargo. (co-worker 4) what are you doing this weekend?

we'll continue to follow the facts as your lead talked about. this is a chapter in the book a consequential chapter, for corporations founded by a former president, but a chapter. and we've had another team, you've seen this stupendous team in court. we've had other members of the team who weren't in court, who have been continuing the broader investigation. so we'll go where the facts take us. if people have things of interest to us, we will certainly listen. hi again, everyone. 5:00 in new york. immediately following the trump organization being found guilty of 17 counts including tax fraud, falsifying business records and more, manhattan d.a. alvin bragg told our colleague alex wagner it was not time to

close the book. just time to turn the page to a new chapter in his investigation into former president trump. and today an update on bragg's new chapter. before we get there a little refresher on what we know at this point. previous reporting found that bragg's office was returning to a probe that had once been in focus. the hush money payments to stormy daniels ahead of the 2016 election. from "the new york times," quote, the d.a.'s office first examined the payment to the actress, stormy daniels, years ago before changing direction to scrutinize trump's broader business practices. but bragg and some of his deputies have recently indicated to associates, supporters and at least one lawyer involved in the matter, that they are newly optimistic about building a case against trump. "the times" reports this, quote, to help build the hush money case, prosecutors are revisiting another strategy that has yet to work, pressuring a top trump lieutenant, allen weisselberg, to cooperate.

we all know from the tax fraud case weisselberg is not one inclined to flip on his boss, the former trump org ceo is currently serving five months at rikers, just to remind everyone how devoted he is to not turning on trump, which brings us to today, this afternoon. trump's former personal attorney mick ail cohen, who has been very open about his willingness to speak with bragg's office is doing just that. cohen served jail time for the stormy daniels hush money payment pleading guilty to eight federal crimes related to it and said he did so, quote,coordination with and at the direction of individual one. individual one is donald trump. there is cohen before he went inside bragg's office earlier today. >> what do you have to offer that you haven't already offered? >> i don't know. i'll let you know on the way out. we're just complying with the request to come in. >> do you think alvin bragg seriously wants to pursue mr. trump or is this just to placate people who want him to pursue trump, but he really has

nothing? >> i'm pretty sure calling me in now for the 14th time, we'll see what happens with the conversation. just have to go in. the first time seeing alvin bragg, yes. >> meanwhile, this comes as a crush of other investigations are bearing down on the twice impeached ex-president. it's a lengthy list. two investigations led by special counsel jack smith, one looking at trump's handling of classified documents and the other at his attempt to overthrow the results of the 2020 election and the government he ostensibly led. there's a $250 million lawsuit brought by the new york ag going after his business practices. there are multiple cases brought by writer carroll who says trump raped her in the 1990s. trump's efforts to overturn the election result there. we still don't know what will come of that. there are lawsuits filed by eric swalwell and the naacp against trump and his allies for

inciting the deadly capitol insurrection. and there's a suit filed by the partner of capitol police officer brian sicknick who says the officer's death was a direct and foreseeable consequence of the role trump and rioters played on january 6th. all of this as the twice impeached ex-president's former attorney appeared before the manhattan d.a. today. we begin with some of our favorite reporters and friends. investigative reporter and msnbc contributor susan craig is here. she has covered the finances and taxes of donald trump for years. she knows more about them than any other human. joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, now law professor at the university of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst. and harry litman, former deputy assistant attorney general is here. we will be joined in a little bit by michael cohen about what he can share with us that he shared with alvin bragg today. susan, i start with you. when you look at the payment to stormy daniels -- i mean, i

remember the front page "new york times" story, i think peter baker wrote it, about individual one, individual one. it just jumped off the page. we all knew it was donald trump. what are they still looking for? it seems they knew then what trump's role was in the hush money payments. >> i can't wait to hear what michael cohen has to say, but when we got the taxes and looked at them in 2020 and we got taxes up to 2018 for 20 years, his personal and corporate, the first thing that we went in there and we thought, let's see if the stormy daniels payment is there. is it there directly in the form of a payment to stormy daniels? it would be like a 1099, a one-off payment. was there a payment to the company? we couldn't find either of those. the other thing we looked for, was there a one-off payment to michael cohen that might have accounted for that $130,000. we also couldn't find that, and he's a salaried employee and we

looked at his salary for the year. he finished up in 2017 and we couldn't see anything there that would account for it. i think when you think about what the state prosecutors who have the taxes, who have this information, the first thing they looked for when they got the taxes, one of the first things would have been this payment. i don't think there's a direct shot in thames of tax fraud because the question is, did he make the payment to michael cohen? we know he paid michael cohen. did they include it as a business expense? i'm speculating, did they account for it in a way that, you know, could sum up to falsifying business records? it must be one of the things they're looking for, but there's no detective line that we saw that was, aha, here's the payment in the taxes. >> okay, so here is what we do know and that is helpful. joyce, this is the check with trump's signature on it, $35,000 paid from trump to cohen august

1, 2017. and here is rudy giuliani. and i remember where i was when i first saw this. there's the check. and here is rudy giuliani on with sean hannity, i think, disclosing to sort of the trump base for the first time how the rush money was paid out. >> agreeing with michael cohen, as far as i know, is a long-standing agreement that michael cohen takes care of situations like this, then gets paid for them -- sometimes gets paid for them, sometimes it's reimbursed in another way. it depends if it's business or personal. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> so they funneled through the law firm? >> funneled through the law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know. he did? >> yep. >> so, joyce, they had this way of saying it out loud as part of their defense strategy, and so far it's worked. what do you think is still under

legal scrutiny by bragg's office? >> so there are a lot of possibilities. i think it's important to be candid and say we don't know for certain but weisselberg has just been convicted on charges that involve defrauding tax authorities and concealing payments by mischaracterizing them. and so something that's very likely to be under scrutiny here is what's the mechanism for reimbursement and was this reimbursement mischaracterized as a legal payment when it was, in fact, a payoff and needed to be accounted for, i guess, as appropriately as you can account for something like that. one of the important pieces that's in play here is that allen weisselberg is spending five months in rikers. sometimes former defendants decide they want to cooperate as opposed to spending more time in custody. and weisselberg may be well aware that michael cohen's testimony puts him squarely in the middle of this situation, so

that if there is another criminal charge, he could be prosecuted a second time, could be facing more time in custody, and one of the important questions may well be how high his tolerance is for more involvement with the criminal justice system. >> harry, you caught our attention yesterday when you sort of just said it all out loud. trump is the worst client ever. there is a pileup of litigation against him and criminal scrutiny from the justice department and the georgia d.a. i want to focus in on this one for another minute with you. this is also in "the new york times" reporting about what might be going on here. quote, while mr. weisselberg has already pleaded guilty to unrelated tax charges and testified last week against trump's company at its trial for the same tax crimes, he's not turned on trump. to ramp up the pressure prosecutors are considering a new round of charges against weisselberg in hopes of securing his cooperation against the former president, people said.

those potential charges concern insurance fraud and are unrelated to the hush money. what is the -- just pick up on joyce's point about what the sort of bucket of new charges could be for weisselberg and new questions about trump that could be in front of michael cohen? >> how much pressure can one 75-year-old man take? i think the new charges are the old charges basically. remember, bragg's predecessor was ready to do this case with two very seasoned prosecutors, and bragg began his tenure by sort of stepping in it and smothering those cases. they related to stormy daniels -- and this was, by the way, the very first revelation by cohen in testimony of the hanky-panky that is a common m.o. in the trump organization of just stating things differently. i don't think it's a big mystery.

there's some specific fraud statute, some specific insurance fraud, but they took this money -- it was hush money -- and maybe it was campaign money, and they characterize it had falsely. cohen has done time for it. two professional prosecutors wanted to bring, bragg shied he. getting glowing press. he's righted the ship, et cetera. i think he has gotten his finest stipend to do what he previously declined to do. i don't think it's anything new and big. it's just ready to take it on. >> it's an extraordinary amount of pain to rappel two prosecutors and call them in today. joining us on the phone is michael cohen. last hour he finished meeting with investigators at the manhattan district attorney's office, author of "revenge."

michael, what did you talk about? >> hi, nicolle. how are you? and to your panel, all three members of your panel fully understand that the district attorney has asked me not to go into the sum and substance of the conversation and the questions that would only benefit one person and that, of course, would be donald trump. i have no interest in doing that. neither do they. all i can say it was a very productive meeting. i don't suspect it will be the last either, and i think alvin bragg is as just stated by harry -- i think he's seriously looking at this case on several different grounds. >> michael, you have spent time with mark pomeranz, two incredibly skilled prosecutors looking at this who thought it was chargeable and prosecutable. did you get any -- do you have a

better understanding of why they left after today? >> so, again, it teeters on the promise that i made to the d.a. that i would not go into the sum and substance of our conversation today other than to say that the team that i met with today are incredibly professional, and they are no different than mark pomeranz and carey dunn, two professionals and very knowledgeable in this area. >> did anyone ask you anything that surprised you? >> well, nothing, of course, surprises me because, unfortunately, i lived through it. this is also something that i have covered extensively. it's been discussed before eight different congressional committees. this would now be my 14th time meeting with the district attorney's office, and, like i

said, they are a truly professional team. >> michael, i want to help you respect the prerogatives of the prosecutors you met with today, but this is an office that made such an unsound decision in the eyes of the last prosecutors that were looking at this that they quit in a very high-profile split with alvin bragg and the beginning of his tenure. do you have a better understanding, even if you won't share it with us, that there's been an about-face from bragg? >> well, i don't think they would have called me in today and spent the three hours or so that we did if there wasn't an interest in re-examining i suspect many of the things that both mark pomeranz and carey dunn had outlined approximately a year ago. >> did you have any requests for

documents you haven't already turned over? i guess what i'm trying to ask, are there new avenues under scrutiny by this office? >> so, once again -- nicolle, you know me well n.o.w. to know i'm not one who likes to back away from an answer especially if i know it, once again, i have to respectfully decline to respond because it goes into the sum and substance of the conversation that i agreed not to disclose. >> i completely get that, and i guess it's a good sign for those of us rooting for the rule of law there was a sum and substance of the three hours today, so, yay, rule of law. >> nicolle, if i didn't -- i'm sorry to interrupt you -- >> go ahead. >> if i didn't think they were serious about reviewing documents and testimony and so on, i would not have wasted three hours going, again, down

to the d.a.'s office for the 14th time. so that's a very good assumption you just stated. >> okay, michael cohen, i also know this about you, when you are able to talk or when a prosecutor has been able to take your information and run it down and make use of it as ag has done, you are completely forthcoming with all of us. i respect we are getting you in this window you are not even an hour out of this three-hour window. is there anything else, any other thoughts or tea leaves you can leave us with to read? >> no, i just -- i'd like -- i would like to say i think people will be satisfied down the road, but, again, only time will tell, and i look forward to coming on to your show in the future and to be able to discuss this at length and with specificity. >> we do, too. we know that day will come. until then, thank you, my

friend, for making the time. >> please stop using these terrible pictures of me. there are much better ones out there. >> you were rocking the turtleneck today so we'll put that one back up. here is what's going to happen. we have to pick in a quick break. the panel will stick around. much more about what may be under scrutiny in this conversation today with prosecutors and the manhattan district attorney's office and the mounting pile of legal exposure facing a twice impeached disgraced ex-president. later in the hour the racially motivated hate and violence, tonight a special msnbc town hall live from new orleans on how to best build a society that treats everyone equally and fairly. my colleagues and friends joy reid will join us. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. get ready to say those five little words. we're talking about... rooty tooty fresh 'n fruity yep, it's back. for a limited time.

the six dollar rooty tooty fresh 'n fruity combo. 2 eggs, 2 bacon strips, and 2 fruit topped pancakes. only from ihop. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older... with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq... as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there, with rinvoq.

ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq. and learn how abbvie could help you save. your heart is the beat of life. if you have heart failure, entrust your heart to entresto. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. business can happen anytime, anywhere. so help yours thrive and stay connected with the comcast business complete connectivity solution. it's the largest, fastest, reliable network.

advanced gig speed wifi. and cyberthreat protection. starting at just $49.99 a month. plus, you can save up to 60% a year when you add comcast business mobile. or, ask how to get up to a $750 prepaid card. complete connectivity. one solution, for wherever business takes you. comcast business. powering possibilities. millions have made the switch from the big three to the best kept secret in wireless: xfinity mobile. that means millions are saving hundreds a year with the fastest mobile service. and now, get the best price for two lines of unlimited. just $30 per line. there are millions of happy campers out there. and this is the perfect time to join them... see how easy it is to save hundreds a year on your wireless bill over t-mobile, verizon, and at&t talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today.

we're back with susanne craig, joy vance and michael craig. equating the prosecutors with whom he spent three hours today with mark pomeranz and carey dunn who were ready to charge and bring this case. it sounds like there is at least renewed interest in exploring that once again. >> it feels like they're building a he said/she said and more about what allen weisselberg knew, because they're trying to put pressure on him and that could be one avenue.

if they get him into court will it be a he said/she said and an often used phrase if you shoot for the king you'd better hit. i think they got the guilty verdict in state court last month in december. i think they have wind at their back, but i think they're trying to pressure weisselberg with everything i read. some stuff and they're trying to get his testimony in this. i sense what they're trying to do is build more than what michael cohen is saying and get as much evidence as they can. >> joyce, our good friend andrew weisman, a close reader of attorney general latisha james lawsuit, messages me she writes in paragraph 600 that weisselberg lied to gain assurance.

it sort of confirms susanne's point they may be looking for more evidence than additional criminality on weisselberg's part. >> it means they view weisselberg as one of the keys to the former president and, nicolle, it's interesting that michael talked about meeting with a professional team today because one of the additions to alvin bragg's team is someone he hired out of the justice department named michael colangelo, a legal mastermind strategic person when it comes to envisions the whole spread of an investigation. colangelo previously worked in latisha james' office, the new york attorney general. and he was the lower responsible for the successful civil case that they brought that

dismantled trump's organization. he was involved in other trump related matters. he's in bragg's office on this team that's taking a fresh look at trump and where he might have potential criminal exposure. so the first step in their view is probably bringing weisselberg onboard they both carry this baggage of having criminal convictions. there is value in having both of them. >> and i imagine harry litman, if you are pursuing the truth about an organization that's difficult to penetrate, there's value in having one of your key witnesses at rikers. just talk about how you approach that. >> well, actually, one of the reasons they backed away before, they were worried about cohen. i do think weisselberg is a different kind of witness.

he looks bedraggled and especially if he's cooperating here. i did think that michael gave us a little snippet, maybe selective hearing. i think he endorsed the notion they're taking what they had before and looking at different theories having to do with false characterizations, it could sound in tax, it could sound in regular fraud which there are many different statutes in new york but, you know, i do think he was basically asserting they're doing what they did before with maybe kicking the tires on a couple of different legal theories, but the facts are as we knew them. it was hush money payment that they falsely characterized and even if there's no specific thing on the tax entries for cohen, we have checks, we have testimony. there's going to be ways in which how they treated it is going to come to light especially if poor allen

weisselberg is cooperating. >> it seems we would come on the air, would track all three of you down wherever you were if we had news allen weisselberg was cooperating in a different way. susanne, what does he know that we still don't know? if you had him and he took truth serum, what would you ask him? >> we're really focused right now on, rightly, on the stormy daniels issue because we know they're looking at that payment. i keep thinking while we're talking and for a long time other avenues have been reopened. when cy vance was pursuing this before, there was much more on the table than just the stormy daniels payment and you're wondering because of that criminal conviction i don't think you can just understate how important that was in terms of the wind at their back now and are they opening up some of these other areas. and allen weisselberg knows about the stormy daniels payment. we don't know if it was

improperly accounted for internally, if -- there's a lot of things still, even though it's not necessarily in the taxes, that there could be issues for. i just think is it wider -- are they opening up all these other areas they were looking at, insurance fraud, valuations, the whole thing? >> it's amazing. all right, we're so grateful to get to round all three of you up and ask these questions especially when there's more we don't know. susan craig, joyce vance, harry litman, thank you so much for starting us off and spending time with us today. shifting gears entirely around here. amid a disturbing rise in racially motivated hate speech and violence in this country, how do we begin to build a more just and equitable society for everyone? our friends and colleagues joy reid and tremain lee from new orleans, the site of the town hall. hall ♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ]

when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too.

qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. i'm managing my high blood pressure, go to getrefunds.com to get started. but i'm still a target for chronic kidney disease. and my type 2 diabetes means i'm also a target. we are targets too. millions have chronic kidney disease and 90% don't know they have it. so ask for your kidney numbers and farxiga. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. and don't take it if you are on dialysis. take aim at chronic kidney disease-- ask your doctor for your kidney numbers

and ask for farxiga. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhhhh... here, i'll take that. [woo hoo!] ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein, one gram of sugar and nutrients for immune health. after my car accident, ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein, wondnder whahatmy c cas. so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. youour cidedentase e woh than insurance offered? call the barnes firm now to find out. yoyou ght t beurprpris

call the barnes firm now when that car hit my motorcycle, yoyou ght t beurprpris insurance wasn't fair. so i called the barnes firm, it was the best call i could've made. call the barnes firm now, and find out what your case could be worth. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million all day long we've been learning about and covering which house republican members of congress will be serving in which committees. we learn which committees embattled george santos' alleged embellisher of everything will be assigned to. my colleague capitol hill reporter ryan nobles, give it to us. >> reporter: that's right, nicolle. we learned george santos is going to serve on two committees in the house of representatives on behalf of the republican conference.

they will be the small business committee and the space, science and technology committees. and i just caught up with the house speaker, kevin mccarthy as he was leaving the capitol. he confirmed to me our reports about the santos' committee assignments. there was some talk as the republicans were negotiating exactly where santos was going to end up, that perhaps he may only be given one committee assignment, but republicans decided to stick with protocol and put him on two committees. i asked speaker mccarthy about that specifically. he said this is how it works. in general republican members are given two committee assignments unless they are asked to serve on the powerful committees, the most high profile committees like ways and means, appropriations, judiciary, and last week mccarthy ruled out santos sitting on any of those powerful committees. so if you're not sitting on one of those committees you are given two committee assignments. mccarthy told me sometimes even these members are given three committee assignments. these are the two santos will

serve on. this was one of the last decisions republicans made over the course of their steering committee meetings which have taken place all during this week and began last week so they held off on the assignments to these two committees right up to the last minute and that was where santos ultimately ended up on the small business committee and on the assigned space and technology committees, nicolle. >> ryan, we all woke up to a crush of holiday weekend reporting and journalism about the extraordinary body of lies and questions and calls for his resignation, not from democrats but from republicans. i guess i'm old enough to remember when small business was such a vital constituency for the republican party that they would never insult it with an alleged liar. is it a reflection they don't care about the economy that this congress will be about investigating the bidens that they put him on that committee?

>> reporter: nicolle, i hate to downplay the work of any of these committees in washington. every single one of these committees, as you rightly point out, play a vital and important role in making american policy. to say that he was added to small business or to the space and science committee because those were low-level committees is not fair to the work of those committee members and to their chairmen. yes, you are exactly right that this is an important committee assignment, there were two assignments he was given, and that's why there were so many questions to kevin mccarthy and to republican leaders, the members that were going to sit on this steering committee, as to whether he would be giving an assignment at all. there is precedent to members of congress that are under the cloud of investigation on any level being removed from committee assignments while the process plays itself out. although we don't know in specificity the level of intensity, we know there's been a referral to the house ethics

committee, there's been a referral to the outside independent agency, the committee on ethics, and we know there are state and federal investigators looking into this. so there was every opportunity for him to not be given committee assignments but republicans have decided to let the process play out behind the scenes and sit him on the committees as he now will serve in congress accordingly. >> it's just an extraordinary vote of confidence from kevin mccarthy in george santos. thank you for joining us with this breaking news. ahead for us as promised we will go down to new orleans where our friends and colleagues joy reid and trymaine lee are getting ready for the national day of racial healing town hall. .

ubrelvy helps u fight migraine attacks. u rise to the challenge. u won't clock out. so u bring ubrelvy. it can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within 2 hours... ...without worrying if it's too late or where you are. unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks a protein believed to be a cause of migraine. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. most common side effects were nausea and tiredness. migraine pain relief starts with u. learn how abbvie could help you save. ask about ubrelvy, the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine. meet gisèlle. she lives with her mother, pela, and their family in a small home in africa. gisèlle is a great cook, just like her mother. a hard worker. gisèlle's a great student, too, but before she can go to school or do her homework, gisèlle has to do her chores, including

collecting water for her family. she and other women and kids walk miles each day to a tiny trickle of a stream, one they share with the cows, donkeys and other livestock. they fill buckets with dirty water, one cup at a time, then make the journey back home. it's exhausting work, but it doesn't have to be this way. when you go online to joincharitywater.org to make your gift of $20 a month, just $5 a week, you'll help provide access to clean water for kids like gisèlle and their families who need it desperately. gisèlle's journey for water is dangerous, but so is the water she brings home.

but you can bring clean water to their communities. you can change and even save their lives. and one day, with your help, we■ll end this crisis for everyone. go online to joincharitywater.org and make your gift of $20 a month, just $5 a week. because private donors cover our operations, 100% of your gift goes directly to projects in rural communities where people desperately need clean water. go online to joincharitywater.org and give now.

as america reaches a cultural inflection point marking a genuine reckoning with america's racist past, it has brought a chilling normalization of white supremacy and main streaming of far-right extremist movements. at 10:00 p.m. here on msnbc our colleagues and friends joy reid, chris hayes and trymaine lee will host national day of racial healing, an msnbc town hall live from new orleans. they will discuss the recent rise in hate speech across america and how we make strides towards becoming a more just and equitable society. joining us live from new orleans the host of msnbc's "the reid

out" my friend and colleague joy reid, msnbc correspondent trymaine lee is also there standing with her. i want to ask both of you about tonight but i will also not skip this opportunity of today's headlines. tell me about tonight and what you hope people see when we all tune in and watch. joy, you first. >> it's always great to be on with you, my friend. and, you know, first of all, look at this space. >> gorgeous. >> this is called studio b. it's incredible. i need you to come down here and walk through and hang out with me, nicolle. it's beautiful. it's partly about being in a space with art that is about black people, black resistance, and this is an artist who used to paint pictures of dr. king and focus on that but now he focuses on regular people.

you're in thissen credible space. i hope people get the conversations that trymaine had, the conversations chris, our wonderful friend chris hayes and i are going to have with nicole hannah jones and with the former mayor of this city, mitch landrieu and with others just about the first steps, i guess, that we can take to try to have some sort of racial healing in a country that often is quite resistant to it. it's a difficult conversation. this is clearly not a solution to it, but we're going to try to make a start. >> trymaine, i want to show some of the interviews -- go ahead, you first. >> this beautiful space and the energy here but not unlike new orleans itself which undoubtedly is like the blackist city in america, all kinds of blackness, but the kind of blackness created in this community for over a couple hundred years, lest we forget people of color coming together to create, no pun intended, but this cultural

gumbo that we love so much. the question has always begged does america love black people as much as culture, the food and the culture came from black people. >> what do you think the answer to that question is, trymaine? >> what did you say? >> i think the answer is -- >> go ahead, joy. >> no, no, no, the answer, unfortunately, has generally been no. it's interesting you talk about that. there are two states that had the largest enslaved populations in the united states. it was mississippi and louisiana, and at the end of the civil war louisiana and mississippi both had majority black populations. so this is a perfect place to have this conversation. this was a state that was dependent economically on black people, black neighbor built louisiana, right? but when it was over, you had a population faced with a black

majority and questions about whether you could have democracy if they got it, too. because if they got it, too, what happened during reconstruction happened. they started electing black statewide, local and state officials. they elected lots of them, louisiana and mississippi, were electing united states senators, governors, lieutenant governors. and then you had a population that didn't want that and had to confront how do you stop that? and so a lot of the architecture of what definitely looks like hating black people and trying to suppress black people began in places like louisiana where white citizens had to figure out how do we stop democracy from empowering our former slaves. and a lot of that was never dealt with. it's not talked about. the history has been buried. and what people have taken instead is the culture, is the music, is the food, is, you know, the jazz and the beautiful things about black culture that

black people contributed to the culture, people want that, but they don't want to solve that big question about democracy necessarily. >> joy, i want to follow up with you, i don't want to run out of time to show some of the great interviews you did, trymaine. let me follow up with you quickly, joy. it feels like in what you just laid out, we're going in the wrong direction, joy, and i wonder how you have these conversations about making democracy work, about telling the truth, about voter suppression laws masquerading as election integrity laws though none of trump's own administration officials could find any voter fraud. how do you go deeper? how do you get better when the gaslighting keeps moving us backward? >> yeah, and the gaslighting works because we don't know our history. having traveled a bit from the time i was fairly young, americans know less about american history than most people in europe know about our

history. we just don't know. we don't understand that we keep fighting the same fight all over again. the fight after the civil war was the fight, and reconstruction was the opportunity to prevent us from declining into autocracy. we failed. we let the south go without a second thought and build statues and monuments to the people who declared war on us. and so we are going backwards, but we've been backwards. i think the problem is we need truth before we get to reconciliation, and once we kind of understand this is an old fight. trump isn't doing anything new. you and i, our good friend rachel maddow, we did this in the '30s and we're just doing it again. i think we keep doing it again because people don't know. we're not learning our history. >> trymaine, i want to show these interviews we keep talking about. these are residents. we'll talk about it on the other

side. >> america and louisiana in particular has a habit of ignoring the african american community, and we need to turn the page on that. or else you'll be back in it situation again with another issue. >> so talk about the voices we're going to hear from tonight, trymaine. >> what's so interesting spending time here, i used to live here as a newspaper reporter, so i had an intimate relationship. there are physical remnants that have divided this community for a very long time. in the 1960s the government rammed through a project i-10 interstate that ran through the heart of the area, big old oak trees and businesses and hundreds of homes, black-owned homes, all destroyed to make way for this interstate project. the people i talked to were alive and they remember the greenway that was claiborne avenue. and so to hear the voices talk

about this idea of healing in real way that is something has to be done in this community not just with the interstate but a physical reminder of the infrastructural racism. the gaps in education and health, louisiana and mississippi always ranked 49th and 50th in all of these opportunity spaces when it comes to black people. to come to this community that has been resilient even given the layers of oppression heaped upon this community's shoulders, they are a vibrant, free kind of living people, right. it's not just the food and the jazz, the way they talk to you, the women call you baby, everything about this community is love despite everything that's been forced against them. so the voices we'll here tonight, honest and open as are the people in this community. though it's a tough topic to grapple with, the people in the community. even though it's a tough topic, really good conversations. >> joy, tonight we'll be watching. how do we make this not -- i was thinking about this yesterday. we covered the life of martin luther king jr. how do we make this not one

night or holiday? how do we live this all day every day? >> yeah. that is such a great question, because i have been thinking about that, too, and also how do we not do this in a way that we're asking people who are the victims of racism to fix it, right? i mean, we're going to talk tonight about the anti-asian violence that we've seen in the pandemic. that isn't something the asian american community should have to fix. the issues that we're talking about in treme, it's a bigger project. i think what we need to do tonight after we've heard the stories, heard the potential solutions coming from these communities, we can take each s tremain does, break them out and pursue them individually. i'm fascinated by the story of good eisenhower, bad eisenhower and how you had this incredible system to connect the country.

but if you've ever live in the miami, come here to clayborn avenue, you know that was done largely at the expense of black communities who were shoved in the first place into the least desirable parts of the city. if you go into any downtown, what you found were jewish people, black people, and italians. you now understand harlem, you now understand liberty city. but those same communities got targeted by the highways. fixing that is a story. we're a journalist. the biden administration is trying to do something about it. we'll talk about that. we'll pursue the bits and blow them up into larger pieces. >> any bits you want to blow up in large pieces i'd love to see you literal he or figuratively around the table so much. thank you saar saving some time. we'll all be watching joy and

tremain and catastrophes for today's national day of racial healing. thank you so much, my friends for spending time with us. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back. doesn't your family deserve the best? eggland's best eggs. classic, cage free, and organic.

more delicious, farm-fresh taste. plus, superior nutrition. which is now more important than ever. ♪♪ love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, you'll help hungry kids get the food they need. if we want to take care of our children, then we have to feed them. your gift of just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month at helpnokidhungry.org right now will help provide healthy meals and hope. we want our children to grow and thrive and to just

not have to worry and face themselves with the struggles that we endure. nobody wants that for their children. like if these programs didn't exist me and aj, we wouldn't probably get lunch at all. please call or go online right now with your gift of just $19 a month. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this limited edition t-shirt to show you're part of the team that's helping feed kids and change lives. if you're coming in hungry, there's no way you can listen to me teach, do this activity, work with this group. so starting their day with breakfast and ending their day with this big, beautiful snack is pretty incredible. whether kids are learning at school or at home, your support will ensure they get the healthy meals they need to thrive. because when you help feed kids, you feed their hopes, their dreams, and futures. kids need you now more than ever. so please call this number right now to join me in helping hungry kids or go online to

helpnokidhungry.org and help feed hungry kids today. when you shop wayfair, in helping hungry kids or go online to you get big deals for your home - every day. so big, we'll have you saying... am i a big deal? yeah you are, because it's a big deal, when you get a big deal. wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. because with savings so real... you can get your dream sofa for half the price. wayfair. it's always a big deal. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ well, i think there's going to be a happy ending here. i'm exhausted. that little guy was much more exhausted, but as you can see here, i have been with the dolphin stranding network so i mimicked what i've seen them do. that is cradle the dolphin, take

them into deep water and hold it. let it catch its breath, let it get its bearings. after a few minutes let it go. we saw it get hit by a wave. we saw it turn back, and eventually we lost sight of it and it looks like it made its way into the gulf of mexico. for anyone worried about my safety, those are big waves. i live in florida. we have big waves and right now there's no underto you. so i'm back tired but happy that little guy looks like he's going to be a survive. >> our friend and colleague kerry sanders really can do anything, including saving a dolphin while reporting live on the airle if you're wondering why we played that today, we wanted to pay tribute to kerry sanders before we sign off. to one of the most favorite, most enduring most accomplished members of the nbc family. kerry announced this morning he's moving on after 32 years with the network from wars to

extreme weather, hurricanes, on all six continents and even antarctica, kerry covered it all. he took us all along for the ride women wish him all the best in his many new adventures to come. quick break. we'll be right back. quick break. we'll be right back. or, skip the hassles and sell with confidence to opendoor. wow. request a cash offer at opendoor.com ♪♪ entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed

by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. lomita feed is 101 years old. when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com.

thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. we have a special rep