on the medicare for all system, which i would like to see, at least maybe we could expand primary health care all over this country, so that every american could get to a doctor when he or she needs to do that. >> all right, senator bernie sanders, thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. >> that is all in on this tuesday night. like i said, i will see all of you in exactly one hour, when george -- tremaine lee and i host the national day of racial healing town hall from right here in your lungs. 10 pm eastern on msnbc, as well as streaming on peacock. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. good evening chris, i'm so excited for it and so glad you are doing this. and i know the hour is in really good hands given the great work that you enjoy and tremaine have all done on the topic of race and just a division in this country. so we are all really looking forward to that here in new york. >> thanks a lot, metoo. >> thanks to all of you at home for joining us this hour. as the january six committee rushed finished the work and

close up shop over the holidays, you are practically inundated with releases a material. there was the committee's final report which clocked in at over 800 pages. then there were just thousands of deposition peaches and transcripts, court documents and exhibits -- from the committees. hearings dozens of videos. it is hard to believe that there was anything the committee did not release. and yet today, we learned there was something. today the washington post published this draft memo. prepared by a team of committee staffers and focusing on social media and extremism. they were known as teen purple. the team apparently hoped that there 100 plus-page memo would be adapted into a chapter investigations final report. but the committee decided to leave most of it on the cutting room floor. among team purples most damning findings was that in the run up to january 6th, social media platforms like twitter and facebook bent over backwards, that their own rules to, allow

donald trump and others, people who were stop the steal proponents, to continue to spread -- tech giants fear blow back from conservatives. executives failed to heed warnings from their own employees about the ways the election denialism was morphing into violent rhetoric which was likely to explode into real life violence. on january 6th. rolling stone reports the senior safety specialist of twitter who, had tried and failed in the run up to january 6th to get her bosses to clamp down on posts that could incite violence, she wrote this to a colleague the day before the tack on the capitol. quote, wench people are shooting them selves in the streets tomorrow i'm going, to try to rest in the knowledge that we tried. because while the january 6th attack may have seemed to most americans to come out of nowhere, and people at tech companies whose job it was to be on the lookout for threats, they saw it coming a mile away. they watched as election disinformation from donald trump and his allies became

widespread election denialism among his supporters, which turned to extreme rhetoric about things like taking our country back, which turned to coated and not so quoted calls for violence. and then we got january 6th. but the team purple investigators for the january 6th committee made clear that the capitol attack was not the end of the cycle. this is from their draft memo. quote, recent events demonstrate that nothing about america's strong political climate or the role of social media within it has fundamentally changed since january 6th. following the lawful fbi search of president trump's at mar-a-lago, both mainstream platforms and the sites were extremist pilot tried to assault the capitol were gonna boil with violent speech. just days later, an armed man threatened the fbi building instance now you'll high a, reporting soon confirmed he was present at the capitol riot. until the incentives for violent, extreme and, even apocalyptic rhetoric are

diminished, the threat of political violence will persist. and sure enough, now we appear to be seeing it again. this time in new mexico. back in august, the santa fe new mexican flag notable history of candidates for state policy in albuquerque. the republican nominee for the seat, solomon pinion have been convicted of 19 felonies and spent almost seven years in prison for being the mastermind of a smash and grab burglary ring. naturally, after getting out of prison, salman peña said the next thing that made sense for him was to run for political office as the super maga pro trump republican. after opinion lost his race and lost badly, getting only 26% of the vote, he announced that just like donald trump, he was not conceding his race. he was researching his options. when you came up with apparently, was a series of visits to the homes of democratic elected officials in new mexico, where he disputed

his election law lost with them. democratic county commissioner tells nbc news that kenya came to our house right after the november election. quote he, was at my door and he was aggressive. he was an election denier another county consumption or head a similar experience with panic what, this guy came to my home. i was very concerned about it and it was very unsettling. he was angry but losing election. he felt the election was unfair and untrue. both of those commissioners called the police, but they did not give the visits much more thought. that is, until the shootings started. solomon penny of course now been arrested on charges that he orchestrated a spree of shootings targeting the homes of two county commissioners the, state senator and the new state house speaker. all democrats. no one was hurt in the shootings but that was partly not for lack of trying. in the criminal complaint against tenure, police -- in some of the shootings and is

cooperating with authorities. this -- pen you didn't like -- they were firing at the houses to late at night and they were leaving above the windows. he wanted them to aim lower and commit the shootings earlier in the evening to have a better chance of hitting people inside. pena personally participate in the fourth and final shooting too and ensure that it was carried out that way. it was during that shooting that county commissioners sleeping ten-year-old daughter was covered in sheet rock dust dislodged by bullets passing through her bedroom. today the new mexico legislator opened its new session with a new house speaker whose home was riddled with bullets last month. this may be the first time that election denialism has escalated to violence in the state of new mexico. but like so many other places over the united states, election denialism has caused 20 of other problems in the

state over the last couple of years. republican commissioners and one new mexico county spent weeks refusing to certify the results of an election last year over fake election fraud claims. new mexico secretary of state finally went to court and force them to certify. secretary of state result had to go into hiding for several weeks the previous year because of online threats. and as new mexico's top elections official she has a pivotal role as four state heads towards 2024. and that's all because election denialism and it's violent repercussions do not seem to be going anywhere. joining us now is new mexico secretary of state maggie to lose all over. not a secretary, thanks for being with us here tonight. i want to get first reaction to george pinion news, the solomon pena news. understand what it has been

like for democratic lawmakers in the state of new mexico and how your feeling tonight. >> well, thank you alex for having me. i am really grateful to be here to talk about this topic and i will tell you tonight i am feeling and i know my colleagues especially, my colleagues who experienced actual bullets through their houses are feeling extremely relieved at the quick and decisive action of our local law enforcement officials in albuquerque police departments, state police here in new mexico. but for me as somebody who has been on the front lines of dealing with threats and now we are seeing actual acts of violence against elected officials here in the state, particularly as a result of election denialism and the wise of misinformation that is provided a certain section of our population of the last couple of years i'm deeply concerned. because really we can see --

right now. from the rhetoric that was leading up to the 2020 election all the way through december late in the year of 2022 and we are not just talking about violence now we are seeing actually happen. >> you know, i think a lot of people think there wasn't a january 6th style insurrection following the midterm elections, that somehow we have gotten to a better place. but i wonder what the view on that is from the state level. can you talk a little bit about how you see the threat to democracy as it plays out in the state of new mexico? >> sure. i will tell you, my colleagues and i in the election world, and really this is not just democrats, it is people of both parties, independents, who work in elections for a living. we were all saying, wow, this election has been a lot calmer. what less chaotic, a lot less stressful and threatening then the 2020 election was. but we all sort of are waiting

for the other shoe to drop so to speak. we know that the pervasive sentiments that have been created by the rhetoric of the -- i'm not gonna weigh in we know that there are still a lot of people out there who genuinely believe that the election was stolen and who also believe that the only way to deal with political conflict is to address it through violence. and this just reiterate what i have said, what my colleagues have said over and over again since 2020. the rhetoric has got to stop. because, it is not just a political tactic anymore, it is creating actual violence in our communities, it is affecting human beings like me and my family, my colleagues, my friends and their families in their daily lives. it is threatening their safety. >> i guess, what do you do short of making the case that this isn't the answer, we are human beings, don't put my ten-year-old daughter's life in danger because you think that the election was rigged. i mean, we begin this segment

talking about the findings of the team purple in the january 6th committee. they detail with great specificity the radicalized enforcement of social media. how do you combat that as a state level elections official? what recourse do have, what resources do? have >> well, first and foremost we have to push back on the lies. as you know we have been doing that and we've been doing it very strongly. and forcefully over the last couple of years. but the next step is to take legislative action to ensure accountability, and make sure that justice is being served for those who not only are just contemplating but obviously for those who are carrying out these actions in real life. the work of the january six committee i think was a great example of that. and the prosecutions and the successful convictions that we have seen in federal court, particularly one in the division when my state was a public officeholder who was then removed from office for

having participated in the insurrection. it can't just happen at the national level or at the state level and we see this type of violent behavior as we have seen here in my state. again, i'm grateful to our local law enforcement but the next step is to hold these individuals who are responsible accountable, and to prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. and, working with the legislature in my state and across the country, other states, we need to take proactive action legislatively to make very clear that it is a very serious crime to just even, to threaten the lives and well-being's of elected officials across the country. >> i mean, the other thing i worry about is beyond the very urgent safety issue, it must have a chilling effect in terms of who volunteers to want to be part of the system, to be an elections official, to be a secretary of state. i mean, how do you grapple with this? why do you still do a job that has forced you into hiding? i mean, obviously it is very

important for the functioning of democracy but you are a person to and i am sure you have to worry about the safety of, your own safety and the safety of your loved ones. how do you make that choice? >> it is such a good question, alex. you know, i ran for a second full term of office here in new mexico last year. fully knowing the potential threats that i was going to subject myself to. i had to think about it very hard. i do think about you know, this isn't our job that i do for my own mental health and well-being right. i do acknowledge that there are potentially very serious threats to my life and my family's life. but that is the reality of justice and the right to vote and democracy in this country. i am not part of a cohort that is facing this for the first time. so many people in our nation's history have had to face threats to their lives and quite frankly, have lost their lives. for the fight for democracy in this country. so, i am not any different. i'm just willing to do the

work. and i'm willing to fight and to speak out and to do everything i can do to protect myself. in light of the threats. and that is exactly what we need, again on both sides of the aisle, and independents and everyone who we need to come together to run our nations democracy to make sure that it is healthy and that it thrives, it is that willingness to say yes, we acknowledge there is risk. but so many people have come before us to do the same. >> wow. we are also deeply grateful. for everything you are doing to keep democracy of the united states on track. i'm sorry that you have to make the decisions and the calculations that you do. new mexico secretary of state maggie oliver, thank so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. so >> that was part one of a bigger conversation about the state of maga republicans today and its relationship to election denialism and drifting and violence on both sides of the halls of power. part two is about election deniers and drifters in

congress. just as conspiracy monger-ing congressman marjorie taylor greene today lands implement simon on the homeland security committee. but committees did serial fabricated george santos get? all those details are next. and coming up later, new reporting that the justice department's considerable ultimately decided against having fbi agents monitor president biden's advisers as they conducted their search for classified documents at his delaware home. how does it all factor in the calculations of merrick garland? i will be joined onset by former justice department prosecutor who just wrote a lengthy profile of the attorney general. all of that is just ahead. that is just ahead. - psst! susan! with paycom, employees do their own payroll. - what's paycom? a magic payroll genie? - it's a payroll app. - payroll is way too complicated for the average person. - paycom guides them through it. missing or duplicate punches, pending expenses, unapproved pto, on and on.

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startling new details but really elected congressman and serial liar george santos. we don't have the entire hour for the segment but you will remember that santos lied about where he went to high school and college, of we distort volleyball player, about being jewish, about his work history and then of course there are his really questionable financials. santos lent his campaign a whopping $700,000 and questions are swirling around the potential serious campaign finance violations.

throws all that is concerned, the latest revelation comes from the washington post. which reports quote new details linked short santos to cousin of sanction russian oligarch. but as a real headline. the post reports that the russian businessman reportedly put quote, hundreds of thousands of dollars in desantis's one-time employer, harbor city. which was accused by regulators of running a ponzi scheme. and yet today, george santos, who by the way voted 15 times to elect kevin mccarthy's house speaker, today george santos was rewarded with sea on both the small business committee and the science basin technology committee. kevin mccarthy who is purely we could have a a speaker made multiple concessions to get the speakers got fouled. and many we still do not know about. today, in dueling out when he assignments, three congressman who really literally led the charges against him mccarthy, matt gates, andy bates and chip roy, it will gain seats in the very powerful judiciary

committee out. congressman scott perry, -- where did three of the most repump extreme republican -- to those people were previously kicked off committees in the last congress. extremist and compare see theorist marjorie taylor greene who has liked social media posts calling for the execution of democratic leaders and who was, if you remember stripped of her committee assignments to door dangerous rhetoric. today, marjorie taylor greene got not one but two seats onto the most powerful committees it cook rat. low blood to crude committee in the oversight committee. and republican congressman paul gosar,, conspiracy theorists who switched his vote at the 11th hour to kevin mccarthy, one who posted an anime video online showing him killing the congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, the one that got him stripped of his committee

assignments back in the day? paul gosar also coveted see on the powerful oversight committee. and then there is far-right republican and qanon support, congressman lauren boebert, who's pivotal, last-minute phones which allowed commit mccarthy to secure the speakers gavel who prefer to democratic represents to de ville and omar as a member of a quote, jihad squad. lauren boebert, also got to see on the oversight committee, which is the law with which the gop is planning to, with which the gop is planning to go after the biden administration with numerous political needed administrations. kevin mccarthy need a number of concessions to become speaker, we do not know all of them. what seems clear is that hard-liners in his party have been appeased. and that can be catastrophic for both americans and democracy. joining us now is nbc's senior political reporter, sahel

kapoor. sahel, good to see you. thanks for being here. odd of choices remain on capitol hill today. what is the reaction of republicans who are not in the most extreme wing of the republican party? to this election of lauren boebert, marjorie taylor greene, paul gosar, scott perry for these plum committee assignments? >> there are certainly were a lot of choices made in a lot of very important choices made alex. of the 20 holdouts food out cuba mccarthy 14 you relitigating defeats of the house of representatives before ultimately electing him speaker, all of them have gotten committee assignments that would range from good to great. there are several of them that are freshman, forced her members who have gotten committee assignments on the homeland security committee, financial services committee and the appropriations committee. i texted that 218 house republican -- and the reaction i got back was a screaming face emojis. throughout this process of

getting democrats elected speaker, there was a lot of anger from more moderate, mainstream republicans about the fact that 10% of the most right-wing republicans were, in their view, holding the other 90% hostage. and there was also this insistence that were there were no explicit committees promised these numbers, there was never like, i need you to put me on this exact committee or i'm not gonna vote for you. but we do know, because the members were in the room negotiating this, told me another reporters that one of the things they demanded if kevin mccarthy was what they called, a conservative representation on committees, what they meant was that was, membership of the far-right freedom caucus on these plum committee assignments. it appears they got that, alex. >> i mean, riddle me the sahel. kevin mccarthy agreed to a one for -- far-right seems to be winning this hand. but does not a certain political capital lie with the non maga issuing of the party? do this enough with enough

conspiracy theorists, fearmongering, anti-vax republicans, and the more and, we'll put it in quotes, mainstream wing of the party could revolt. is there any talk of mccarthy practically losing support this early in the game? >> not at this moment, alex. this is going to be one of the most important gunshot questions of the moderate republican party. are they willing to respond in kind and say, speaker mccarthy, if you give these people too much what they want, if you side with 10% of the most far-right members than you are going to problem on the moderate mainstream wing. we have seen over the last decade or so, the last 12 years -- caucus, that conservative members, the most conservative members, they flex power. you're willing to tolerate a high-level of chaos before the chamber to get what they want. the moderate members don't have the same willingness to, flex their muscle to use the parliamentary equivalent of brute force that we are seeing from these ultraconservatives. that is going to be a big problem when it comes to governing, i think.

when it comes to funding the government, like comes to lifting the debt ceiling. an optional pieces of legislation, because a lot of what these members have got to do on these committees as you know, right legislation that never passed the senate, can ever get signed into law by president biden, things that occur since the oversight functions which are also very important. but there are some important matters of governing, you know, which have a very very serious consequences. >> okay. okay, moderate wing. use your power wisely, i guess. nbc's senior political reporter sahel kapoor, el risco to see you sahel, thanks for your time. joining us now is mark leap of, -- mark an author of thank you for your of two, donald trump's washington in the price of submission. mark, great to see you. perhaps you as a wise man washington, can tell me, sahel just said the moderate wing of the gop is not content or perhaps bold enough to use the power that they have to keep the hard lined conservative you know, extremists, in line.

my question to you is, as someone who studied the sort of, republican class of politicians in washington, why is that? kevin mccarthy holds the speakers gavel by one vote. why? one naysayer could outs to misspeak or, might not use your power? >> right. or, they've a majority of what, four votes. any number, this is a fairly high number of mainstream moderate were -- publicans who ran and won and in districts that biden ran and won in 2020. they are clearly vulnerable to get some kind of reelection battle. they are not banding together. i was a little bit surprise after basically mccarthy, it looked like he was rewarding all kinds of bad behavior, preemptive bad behavior, during just the chaos of a week and a half and ago. which turns out he was because all people who were sort of holding his, holding him over the neck of the capitol, were

awarded big committee assignments this week. and ultimately, these moderates, or whatever you want to call them, none of them voted against the rules package a few days later. they have not in any way shape or form shown any willingness to defy the right, which they seem frankly scared of. to me that is the dynamic that will be defining to what the republicans look like -- >> and yet, the republican party elders have been commissioning very muddy forces of autopsy to figure out what went wrong in 2022. doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the lesson from these midterms, where republicans lost a seat in the senate, and have a house majority by four votes. did the lesson there, is to put paul gosar and lauren boebert on plum, powerful committee assignments? it defies all logic. are we witnessing, i think i have been saying this for ten years, but it really feels like it now, is this the implosion of the gop as a functioning

party? how can you look at what just happened and make the decision that was made today, hours ago? >> yeah. what you are seeing is people acting out of self interest. if you are in a safe district, if you are in an echo chamber that is fox news, small donors, it is your deep -- in district that marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar represents, also the far-right members of your caucus, that kevin mccarthy desperately needs, these are the people you are focused on. the idea of what an autopsy committee is going to decide, what the republican party needs to win swing voters, they don't give a damn about that. that is not something that they think about in the day today. it is very short term, narrow and self perpetuating. i >> wonder if there's also a more cynical thing up play, there is a belief that what happens in washington state in washington. i wonder if you think this is true, that you can launch any number of flawed, fraudulent

investigations into various democratic members of the administration, you can impeach however many cabinet secretaries who want, and launch you know, subcommittees on covid being imported from mars or whatever, and then you are not going to pay our price for that in a presidential election here. do you think they believe that they can get away with absolute she cannery, nonsense and disinformation inside the halls of congress and not actually pay the price actually, nationally when it comes to an election here? >> clearly. one, they are most of them for the most part getting reelected. mccarthy is getting his speakership. in a way, the decisions they have made, if you put it all together, it is an example of the gop, certainly the house deciding to lead with the wound shows. every single person who has been on the fringes of the last couple years have been rewarded, in power. we are going to see so much more of paul gosar, marjorie

taylor greene, -- again, they are dealing with self perpetuation in very narrow, focus desks tricks that involves their own political interests and foxes political interests. in national elections and autopsies and things like that, are not the kinds of things they think about, nor are they thinking about what is good for the country. >> do you think we are going to default on our credit? when it comes to the deep debt ceiling. how nihilistic do you think the republican party is willing to be in the stage at the game? >> we are going to find out. i hate to be honest about it, but look. i think, obviously democrats were thrilled, pretty much of the election, the midterm election results. they knew especially if they kept the senate, which they did, we amount of damage that the house could do was somewhat contained by the fact that, there is a very small margin ultimately, the white house in the senate were -- but the debt ceiling is the big

kind of clamoring exception to all this. this is a massive, massive threat. they decide they don't want to play ball in this, they're just going to sort of obstruct this, it could be catastrophic consequences. and frankly i don't think marjorie taylor greene is thinking about it in terms of what her district -- i think the reward structure there is very very different from what sane consumers and -- politics will think but on the day today. not to me is -- >> i don't think is acquainted and that the grifter like george santos went from basically ponzi scheme to running for office in the republican party. putin and winning. mark cleavage, staff writer for the atlantic, front of this program, thank you for your time tonight. >> thanks alex. >> just ahead, well the recent discovery of classified documents at president biden's delaware home, will that impact merck arlene's thinking when it comes to indicting former president trump? the former doj prosecutor who

recently spoke to about 20 of his former colleagues and acquaintances, he joins me to discuss. that's next. that's next.

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back in october about winter coming. we i want to treat you to try and guess which industry lobby he was quietly getting checks from. >> when i think of winter i think of being inside, i think of getting cooking with the family behind me, being with a roaring fire, with propane that is all possible. if you're running into maintenance issues on that furnace, consider using these great federal tax credits and upgrading to a propane powered furnace. what i don't like about wood burning fireplaces, i love the smell or crackle i, don't love going out in the middle of winter to cook at the wooden than having to clean out the fire box in the flu at the end of winter. as well. so for me, propane is the way to go. in my fireplace. >> it is not subtle. hgtv's matt blast ron is betting paid to push propane. and he is not alone. new york times reports that an organization called the propane education and research council,

perk, has spent millions of dollars on productive and team electrification messaging for tv, printed social media, using influencers like mr. blah. that is despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the scientific, community agrees that the burning of fossil fuels is dangerously heating our planet. and the fact that propane gas as appliances can amid dangerous levels of toxic chemicals. the fact that electricity is just cheaper to begin with two. but that is the point. they are spending money to get you to spend your money on a product that in many cases, just doesn't make a lot of sense anymore. this year, in 2023, park plans to spend another $13 million on its and t electrification campaign. so the next time you settle into the catch in football in a whole makeover show to unwind, be alert. the propane lobby maybe the real star of that show. but it is not just propane. and it is not just tv. ohio's republican governor mike dewine signed a bill this year

saying that individuals who want to build a chicken coop in their backyard can do so legally on a smaller scale, which sounds totally fine for the backyard chicken coop enthusiasts. but buried in that chicken bill was the very not chicken related amendment that legally we define natural gas is a source of green energy. natural gas, which is primarily methane, it's not greener g. it is a false of fuel. and according to the epa it is more than 25 times as potent as cover dioxide at trump inking in the atmosphere. this chicken bill also changed a state regulations to make it easier to franklin state own land, that changed like a totally language that said that state agencies may lease state land for the production of oil natural gas to saying they shall lease that land. tonight agencies have to lease land for fracking. here's the thing. like h g tv host praising propane, district and it was not fully homegrown.

today, the washington post reveals that too dark money groups with ties to the gas industry, they got the bill passed. the empowerment alliance but more than $1 million supporting ohio publicans in the 2022 election. this bill passed with only republican support. the american legislative exchange council, known as alec, it circulated a model bill for lawmakers to copy and paste and distributed talking points for the bill's proponents. it worked. the law of the land, and the state of ohio, now defies a science and logic and instead reflects the desires of the natural gas industry. and that whole scheme is coming to a state near you. a newsletter, the impairment alliance center on friday, they wrote that states like texas, louisiana, pennsylvania, west virginia are top energy producing states. they should follow suit. on tv, and on social media, and state legislatures, fossil fuel lobbies are running in a low at campaign to trying to trick you

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inundating him and yelling at him with questions about classified documents found in his possession, while president biden was holding a meeting with the dutch prime minister. i was a, white house press secretary said the administration was cooperating with the justice department but that the ongoing investigation is preventing the white house from further comment. meanwhile, new details are emerging from, about the doj's -- considered -- in biden document search. according to the paper, the doj considered having fbi agents longer biden's lawyers in search for classified documents at his homes but decided against it to avoid complicating later stages of the investigation. the doj also opted out because, unlike trump's legal team, biden's attorneys were cooperating in fact were the ones who brought the issue to the doj in the first place. this decision, like so many other ones, shows the unprecedented circumstances

attorney general merrick garland faces. also navigating parallel investigations into former president trump's handling of classified documents, and the sprawling investigation into his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. here is how includes could dory flames it in his new political profile and garland. an analysis by the congressional research service described him as a meticulous and cautious jurist, writing with precision and an eye toward ensuring that the court does not overreach in any particular case. but he notes, while judge garland, then judge garland, what often turned to establish case on legal precedent, there's no comparable body of guidance for how prosecutors should build a criminal case or even when they should charge one, and even less so with a potential criminal, is a former president. this dilemma is unlike virtually any other in garland's career, because, intervening full sense he find himself having to make the rules rather than simply follow or interpret them.

joining us now is anguish corridor, former federal prosecutor and contributing writer for political magazine. thanks for being here tonight. yenne >> thanks for having me. >> one of the things i found was surprising in this very exhaustive, very well reported piece on the attorney general, it is just how much of a political, i won't say actor, or maybe savant, but how sensitive he is to the political trade winds. can you talk a little bit more about that? because i think the public understands him at least at this point, to be so decidedly apolitical. >> i'm glad you brought that up. that was really one of the things i wanted to get through that piece. there is this notion that this is the judge, he is devoid of politics, he is outside the political realm. but she has had a career that has been intertwined with the fortunes of the democratic party, it is no accident that a lawyer becomes an attorney general. not even the most brilliant, gracious kind person. he has friends in politics, he's been in and out of political a little legal circles for decades.

he is people who are deeply enmeshed in the clinton world in the like. so, there is that which is about his die biography in his history, i don't think secondarily the latter half of the piece, really how political considerations are hanging over his tenure at the justice department, how might they be interest influencing him. >> given that, when we have all the news, the swirl around biden in his possession, will foreign awe of certain classified documents, lesser number, the situation is again different but nonetheless, finding classified documents at various residences or in the office that he was using, i mean for garland, it is already such a complicated landscape. do you feel like you could try to really, compensate for the fact that there is seemingly a looming criminal indictment over president trump by being particularly aggressive on the biden investigation? >> you know i, don't know if

there truly is a looming criminal indictment. obviously, we are inch rain with that, it is very real possibility. >> or at least a possibility of it i guess. >> there is a special counsel named, giving a mandate on two significant areas. so, i think one way of interpreting it is, i thinking about it is, -- you can extraordinary step. searching for presidents home, what the fbi. and lo and behold, a few months later, he gets told by joe biden's lawyers, oh we have some documents of her own. i don't know it's meant particularly well, i do my best to channel him, if it were me, and i expect on some level him, it must have been irate. here he is -- doing something truly unprecedented, generating this political converse or fancy. now it has been sort of mocked around with, at the results of biden's conduct. >> when we talk about the two special counsels he appointed, jack smith is a special counsel who is overseeing the

investigation into mar-a-lago and january 6th, president trump's role in both. robert hurd is a person that by -- biden documents situation. -- do you think that reflects -- and where the track smith is not in terms of political donations? and his role in the trump administration? do you think you think that the reflects anything in terms of garlands, i won't see sense of punitive in history in garland but do you think you might've been frustrated by the disclosures from the biden administration? >> i imagine he was. to your point about this person having a more significant political profile than jack smith, who is a political appointee in the trump administration, i don't think it is an accident. i do think there is some effort to make sure that, if this investigation is going to happen, he can do his best at sort of placating people who may be skeptical of it,

including by putting a trump appointee in charge of it. obviously, the person who had it before john large was also a trump appointee. -- since left, and i think honestly that is one of those think that reflects this up to tv to public perception and the politics swirling round him to spite -- >> you make this key point that early on in his career he is very concerned about the institutional integrity of the justice department, there is the media circus around oj simpson and then he is tasked with managing the response to the oklahoma city bombing, and the business story about how to, resurrect, we present to the american public the efficacy and the importance and the institutional integrity of the doj. it feels like we are in another moment in terms of garland and the doj and what, where we are going from here. we have this attack on the sort of institutions of democracy, there is a feel, there is a real skepticism for --

here is a chance to restore that integrity. do you think that garland is looking at it in such a high stakes manner? doesn't feel like he wanted to have to take on trump at the outset of his career as a.g., now he finds himself in almost an impossible position? >> people who know him well will tell you that he understands that it is against the political stakes. i have a hard time scoring that with the actual record. because, as you say, something hugely significant happened on january 6th. joe biden took office a couple weeks later, a couple months later was when merrick garland takes office. my own view is that, as an observer, at that point in time i should've been very regressive and robust investigation into the trump white house and campaign concerning january 6th and the months-long campaign leading up to it. and also the financial sort of shenanigans. but chiefly january 6th. and in your analogy is a good one, but you know in a terrorist attack, there's going to be no question there is going to be an aggressive law enforcement response. this was different. i think that incomparable level

of responsiveness and aggressiveness should've been brought to bear, not to be overzealous or irresponsible or anything like that that didn't happen. i think 2021, a significant part of 2022 as well, what -- appears to have gone by with a kind of hoping that they wouldn't have to deal with trump had. on >> thanks jerry six committee, those hearings change the landscape for -- concludes could or, you think so much. great reporting. >> we will be right back. >> we will be right back age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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will see you again tomorrow at msnbc's town hall on the national day of racial healing, featuring my colleagues and friends joy reid, chris hayes, jermaine lee. that starts right now. live from new orleans. m new orleans. this is an msnbc special presentation. sponsored by