hi there, everyone. 4:00 in new york. today, of all days, the election denying increasingly radicalized party of the twice impeached disgraced ex-president is sending a message loud and clear, but its appetite for, dare we say, their delight in antidemocratic increasingly

dangerous rhetoric. we're talking, of course, about the elevation of some of the fringiest of the fringe members of the republican caucus, the seats on important congressional committees. when we say it is happening on today of all days, that's because today would have been the late congressman elijah cummings' 72nd birthday. he passed away in 2019, the son of sharecroppers, he would go on to become a force of nature in congress, and ultimately the chairman of the powerful house oversight committee. >> when we're dancing with the angels, the question will be asked, in 2019, what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy in tact? did we stand on the sidelines and say nothing? there are efforts to stop people from voting. that's not right!

this is not russia! this is the united states of america! and i will fight until the death to make sure every citizen, whether they're green party, whether they're freedom party, whether they're democrat, whether they're republican, whoever, has that right to vote. because it is the essence of our democracy. >> what did you do? and now thanks to shady back room deals made by now speaker mccarthy, the house oversight committee, a committee that was the country's north star, during some of the darkest days in the trump presidency, when the late elijah cummings held that gavel, that very committee is now going feature a gallery of election deniers, 9/11 truthers, people whose rap sheets are well known

to viewers of this program. here is a taste of the low lights. marjorie taylor greene who was stripped of her committees, to say nothing of her calls for the, quote, execution of democratic leaders and federal agents, end quote and there is the little thing of her affection for jewish space lasers. paul gosar, censured after he tweeted a video of a cartoon depicting congresswoman alexandra ocasio-cortez being killed. and lauren boebert who eked out a barely there win in the last election, known for making antimuslim attacks against representative congresswoman omar. these are members of congress whose calling cards are the language and the rhetoric of violence. they flirt with and encourage and tolerate and create a permission structure for

political violence and it is not just academic, because violent rhetoric, jokes about political violence, it has real repercussions. last year capital police investigated more than 7500 threats against lawmakers, that's nearly double the number of threats against members of congress compared to five years ago. and if you want to know what threats against members of congress look like, or in this case sound like, there's this. we played it for you here on this program. a death threat that came in against congressman eric swalwell. >> the american aren't going to be happy until we see you [ bleep ] by the neck until dead, dead, dead, legally. through trial. have a nice swing [ bleep ]. >> i think that would be unacceptable in either party, and absolutely a direct line and a result of the deranged right wing violent rhetoric we have been hearing from some members

of this republican caucus. and some of the newly seated members of the house oversight committee. it is where we start today with eric swalwell with us at the table. miles taylor is joining us, a former chief of staff of the department of homeland security, co-founder of the political party forward, warning about political violence as long as i know him and on the hill, ali vitali. we saw that and we only played it because you put it out on your twitter feed. why did you do that? >> i'm tired of the threats coming anonymously to us in our direct message feed, on our voice mails, oftentimes interns have to listen to them and i thought, we're going to call out these cowards and oftentimes that has led to them being identified by their law enforcement or employer. someone was fired last week after i posted a direct message threat. i want them to know you're not

going to silence me. >> you were stripped of your committees. why? >> well, political vengeance. kevin mccarthy, seems to want to heat up the leftovers of a story that goes back to barack obama's first term, fbi has said three different times that in a rare form, they never talk about investigations, that all i did was help them, never suspected of wrongdoing. together "the washington post" had a story, but the consequence of his claims is not just that i'm on the company, he's weaponized the intelligence committee, it inspires these death threats. people parrot what kevin mccarthy is saying when they call and make the threats. so he knows that. we told this to him. i have told this to him. i have, you know, publicly broadcast to him when you do this, it leads to threats to me, my wife, our kids.

recently someone said they were going to rape and kill my children. and they were using the language that kevin mccarthy was using. there is a cost to all of this. >> what does he say when you tell him that? >> he doesn't care. he wants to focus on, you know, carrying out the vengeance that he has promised in this corrupt bargain. he won't even stop and talk to me when i have tried to talk to him. he has promised he's going to kick me, adam schiff and ilhan omar off committees and he has as we have seen, he's put marjorie taylor greene, paul gosar and george santos on the committees. and i want to take you back to 2004 after that election. you probably remember george w. bush recently re-elected looked into a press conference and said, i have political capital, and i intend to use it. and i remember as a democrat thinking, oh, boy, he just won big and he's going to carry out his agenda now. what you're seeing here is a

party that barely won the house, lost the senate, kevin mccarthy took 15 votes to become speaker. he doesn't have political capital. he has a political deficit, he's not delivering on inflation, gas, grocery costs, healthcare, border, crime, all the things he told the voters he would deliver on. they have created a law firm, insurrection llc and they're going carry out donald trump's grievances. talk about not reading the room this past election. >> you take it to the political reality of this. the reason there was no red wave and the reason it took mccarthy 15 votes to become speaker is because he has no margin and he needed the people who are so dangerous, everything i know about paul gosar i learned on this program from his relatives who came on our show to warn us about how dangerous he is. and really the most strident rebuke of paul gosar came from other people whose last name were gosar. the idea that mccarthy who is on

a political knife's edge is elevating and the fact that all the people in his caucus are the most extreme elements of the republican party seems to leave the republican flank totally open to make some real gains politically. what are your plans if you have some free time by not being on this important committee to do just that? >> to my wife, it is like, don't threaten us with doing car pickup, doing more diapers. but, frankly, i'm going to storm across the country and help us in many of those tight seats where we barely lost. there are 18 biden republicans who earnestly went to the voters and said we want to get things done in washington and kevin mccarthy signed their political death certificate because in his corrupt bargain, he has promised that they're going to defund the troops by $75 billion, that marjorie taylor greene, who glorified violence, will play a leading role in investigations, he's going to allow al capone to investigate elliott ness with jim jordan's committee to

obstruct justice, people under investigation. they're going to have to vet on -- vote on all of this, and they have to vote with mccarthy and it is going to make him susceptible to losing in a general, or they're going to vote against him, with the democrats, and they're going to be susceptible to losing in a primary. so he's really, i think, put them in the most turmoil. >> there are real threats to the country in this republican-controlled house. and the way that mccarthy gained the gavel. i wonder if you can take me through what you think the first challenges will be for the country, you can start with the debt ceiling. >> so, yeah, janet yellen sent a letter to congress last week, we're approaching the debt ceiling. so your viewers know, this means we're essentially meeting the obligations that we have already budgeted for and spent. we're not spending new money because we're extending the ceiling. we're meeting the promises that we made. and so if you don't like that we spent that much money, run for

office and say we're going to deal with the budget and have your own budget when you're in power. much of it is donald trump's budget. >> his bills, right. >> you'll see a global financial collapse, unable to pay veteran benefits, unable to pay social security recipients and anyone's 401(k) would be in a free fall. then in the fall, of course, we have to fund the government again and they said they would leverage that to try and put cuts against social security and medicare. and then, you know, the battle in ukraine. today was a tough day in ukraine. its interior minister, someone i had gone to see in october in kyiv died in a helicopter crash with many other s. and he very much inspired me when i met with him. he was committed to freedom. his country is committed to freedom. the greatest asset that russia has now would be a republican party that is unwilling to help ukraine. so there is a lot on the line. and democrats are united to

deliver the votes. >> which way do you think mccarthy will go? >> i think you're going to see speaker discharge. the country is going to learn that word because a discharge petition, the worst named political term you could think of means that if you get a majority of the congress to come forward to support legislation, you can go around the speaker, i think we'll have to go around the speaker to do all of that. and that form of governing will effectively become the speaker of the house. i don't think he has the political backbone to stand up to the people he just struck that bargain. >> the whole country saw that, scrambling around to try to get paul gosar. in the end, he didn't support him, they just voted present. i want to come back to this threat of political violence. i think because you shared with the country the specific threats against you and your family and your very young family, it is so

tangible. but it is also already happened. and, you know, i think the thing that anyone in the public arena fears is not necessarily for themselves, but for their families. but there is never as much security when they're not at a location. and when you look at the response to the tragic targeting and shooting of steve scalise, it was universal condemnation. there were no outliers on either side. you look at the reaction to paul pelosi's attack and attacker, donald trump and right wing media figures for circulating conspiracy theories almost immediately and not -- and not just trolls on the internet, elon musk, and donald trump. what does that do in terms of this unstable alleged shooter in new mexico, very unstable adherence of conspiracy theories, who targeted the pelosi home. what is the effect of this muddied message/encouraging and excitement and refusal to

condemn the language of political violence on the right? >> i asked this very question of jonathan greenblatt of the antidefamation league, what happens when political leaders are silent and he essentially said, it is noticed among the extreme. it is essentially a flashing green light. if we don't unify the way we did after steve scalise was shot, i wore an lsu hat for months in solidarity. if we don't unify and use our unity as a antidote to violence, it is a flashing green light for more violence. >> do you see any discomfort? i also had -- you know them very well, some of the capitol police officers who turned their horrors and the tragedy of being physically assaulted by trump supporters into an opportunity to talk about the challenges facing our democracy, they were shunned and scorned by some of the same voices on the political right. do you find any pockets of discould comfort with this

antilaw enforcement and refusal to condemn the language of political violence. >> and monetizing the idea to defund the fbi. that was how marjorie taylor greene raised money for her campaign. it is uncomfortable to protect people that believe that, you know, you didn't have a right to protect the capitol. remember, they're sympathizing with ashli babbitt. they didn't go to the january 6th event we had this year. >> one did. >> brian fitzpatrick, former fbi agent. they went to the d.c. jail, that's where they continued to go to show solidarity. i think it never has been about backing the blue, it is backing the coup now and anything that flows to support that. >> what do you worry about when you look at our politics? you had a prominent role in the impeachments. you've now got republican house members i think they're talking about expunging the impeachments from trump's record. what do you -- what do you look

at -- what do you see on the horizon? >> what i worry about, political rhetoric is always going to be hot. but now with vast access to social media, you know, political leaders not condemning the violence, you mix that in with a country that is absolutely armed to the teeth and even more so because of supreme court decisions, governors trying to out flank each other with access to firearms, that's a deadly cocktail and i just fear that what we saw in new mexico, you know, just in the last month, you know, a lawmaker -- former candidate shooting up the homes of lawmakers, that that will beget more violence. that's why it is so important. we can't stop all violence. but we can speak out, unified against all violence. >> is there a more robust role in that speaking out that the current leadership of the fbi and the justice department? >> look, they have taken on the largest case ever in the united states in the january 6th attack

and i commend them for still hunting down and posting images of people who were responsible. they also have asked us to fund more to protect the synagogues, for example, there is a fema program that provides -- >> judges and -- >> we should protect judges. and we also have a responsibility on our side. i will condemn every single day antifa and anyone who threatens political violence, but it seems like it is a one-sided condemnation and that's why we need to be in front. >> congressman eric swalwell, thank you very much. we wanted to talk to you for a while. we covered all the goings on and it is great to talk to you. thank you very much. i want to bring in my colleagues ali vitali and miles taylor who were introduced at the top. on this very real threat of violence that congressman swalwell and others contend with and the threat reporting is real, no one disputes the numbers, what is the -- is this

solution to just deal with the security side and not get the core problem? >> well, clearly, especially when you see that mccarthy is not just putting these folks back on committees, which we of course expected to happen, but the fact that they are on prominent committees and the country is going to see a lot of them, especially as oversight leads on many of the investigations into the biden administration, specifically on the documents front, which we have seen them already start pushing forward on, just in the last few weeks, but then also on other investigations that they're going to undertake. these are going to be very sensual people who are involved in this. i think it is important to point out their backgrounds. on the point for gosar and perry and boebert and the other 16 or 17 people who bucked mccarthy's hopes for speaker for a week before they finally relented, i think there is an important lesson to be learned here for them, which is that there is no consequence to going against the

speaker. they hold the power, they had it then. they have it now. they have it with these powerful committees. and so clearly there is not going to be a rebuke from within their own party's leadership, if they were to step out of line again with anti-semitic, racist, or violent remarks that were the things that got them kicked off when democrats had control of this chamber. but i also think too, that that's never been something that has been disqualifying really within the republican party, especially when you see the fact that if you look at the trend line of when those threats against congressional members really started ticking up, according to the u.s. capitol police it happened over the course of the last five or six years, and was concurrent with the rise and era of former president donald trump who was about to just start getting back on the campaign trail, and revving up the presidential campaign engine. he's running for president, not that you would know it, you haven't seen him on the campaign trail, but that will start again soon, whether it is on social

ed me media or in person or both. he's a key catalyst that stokes the red meat of the base that pushes on conspiracies like the big lie and others that we have seen fringe parts of this movement mobilize and coalesce around in recent years. >> and, miles, don't believe me, or ali, you should believe ali, you should believe me, believe steven ayers, devoted trump supporter, travelled to washington to back donald trump as donald trump directed him to do on january 6th and testified under oath before congress that once the president sent a tweet saying time to go home, he packed up his whatever he was waving and went home. the insurrectionists are talking. and they're telling us what ali is saying is absolutely true. there is a chain of command, it just never was the u.s. military. it seems it was the extremist movement. >> well, we know from a long, long history of studying

terrorist movements outside of the united states that what you just said, nicole, is the truth. leadership matters. and violent extremists respond to the calls from their leaders. we don't need the past couple of years to tell us that. but what we certainly can see is that it applies equally here as it does in other points around the globe. as you and ali noted, that spike in threats to members of congress is heavily correlated with the rise of extremism in our politics. when we go back to 2016, the year donald trump was elected, there were roughly between 1 and 2,000 threats to members of congress that year. it has increased 400% up to the end of 2022. you aired a number at the top of your program around 7,000, there was a point in december where capitol police said the number had gotten as high as 10,000. there has been, you know, varying estimates but there has been a huge spike in the numbers and it is correlated with that extremist rhetoric.

eric swalwell and i had a conversation about this a couple of months ago and i asked him what he makes of it. and one of the things he said at the time, didn't mention it today, but he compared it to pro wrestling. he said his republican colleagues think of it like pro wrestling, they go out, they say the really, really extremist things, but it is performative. behind the scenes they'll come up to him and say, hey, swalwell, how are you doing, buddy, let's go out to dinner. but unlike pro wrestling, this is real, people are getting hurt. there is one anecdote that keeps popping up in my conversations with state and local officials that i find really eerie. people keep advising them to wear loose fitting clothing. why? so that they can hide kevlar vests. state and local officials are being told wear kevlar vests when in public and go to events because there is the threat of violence when they're out there in public. you saw that just now in new mexico. we have seen that in a string of events, that's very alarming that public officials are having to change their wardrobes to

accommodate protective gear to keep them from getting killed. >> it is horrific. ali, real quick, it was interesting to me, you know, it should always be pointed out that republican lawmakers received threats as well. the difference we're focusing on is you just heard congressman swalwell condemn any violence advocated by antifa. you rarely hear matt gaetz or, don't know, the gosar, greene, boebert, gohmert sort of wing go on an interview and vigorously condemn domestic violence extremism and the militias that are now being investigated and scrutinized for their role in the january 6th attack, you rarely hear them sort of lumped in for condemnation by the right the way antifa is easily condemned by politicians on the left. >> yeah, and certainly it is rare, but there are, of course, republican members who would do that.

the first person that comes to mind for me, of course, is congressman steve scalise who was a victim -- a victim almost of that kind of political violence that we have seen several years ago during that baseball practice shooting, but, look, i do think this is a wide problem among republican, you know, a certain kind of republican voter, and, again, i think it goes back to when you see who is being elevated here, the context is so important and if i can take it back to what we might see in the future and the tangible impacs here in congress of how this place might function, we're about to get into a period where they're going to go heavy on oversight investigations, sending letters, escalating to subpoenas, and the conversations we have been having with the white house, are you going to comply with any of these requests? and what they keep saying and what strikes me is that they say they will comply in good faith with congress. but then they are talking about all of the ways that they see these actors who are on these

committees as not being actors in good faith. and i think that's important when you think about not just the threat aspect, but the tangible how this is going to function from a perspective of these committees and the key people on them. >> right. and it is such an important point. and i will keep that in mind as we cover them. the whole idea that there are people on them who don't want them to function. such an important thread to follow as the day goes on. ali vitali, thank you for your reporting. i told garrett this yesterday, it feels like the center of the political universe these days. miles sticks around. when we come back, the new mexico maga candidate who lost his bid for the state legislature appeared in court for the very first time this afternoon since being arrested as the alleged mastermind of those shootings at the homes of four democratic lawmakers. our colleague vaughn hillyard is outside the courthouse for us. we'll talk to him. and in the next hour we'll speak with the albuquerque district attorney fresh from that

arraignment. we'll ask him about the investigation, the motive and how the rise in political rhetoric and political violence will factor into the case and any eventual trial. plus, we're following another tragedy out of ukraine. congressman referenced it. it is the deadly helicopter crash near a kindergarten, very latest from the ground there when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older.

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key committee assign s as we track the rise in violent rhetoric from some members of the republican caucus alongside the rise in political violence in america, there is also this. in the last hour in albuquerque, new mexico, a former republican candidate for that state's state legislature solomon pena was arraigned on charges relating to a string of shootings at the homes of pena's democratic rivals. as more details about the suspect come into focus, it appears he ticked several of the proverbial boxes we often see in election denying violent rhetoric adhering far right republicans. pena was in the crowd on january 6th, listening to donald trump on the ellipse, though there is no evidence pena actually stormed into the capitol. in his own race in new mexico, he cited election fraud and refused to concede. even though he lost by nearly 50 percentage points, 5-0. he told police investigators he was in favor of, quote, civil

war, to achieve political change. in the next hour, we'll have a chance to talk to the district attorney in this case. first, vaughn hillyard is there on the ground following this developing story for us in albuquerque, new mexico. miles still with us as well. vaughn, take me through the latest. >> reporter: nicolle, this initial hearing wrapped up in the last half hour here in which the judge ruled he would be held without bond here. i just came down the road, two miles from here, where one of those four democratic officials whose homes were shot up showed me 12 different bullet holes inside of her adobe home. when you look at the gravity of what we're talking about, talking about individuals and debbie o'malley, county commissioner here, tasked with certifying the local election, she first met solomon pena, the man arraigned today, just days after the november election in which notably he lost by nearly

50 percentage points. he showed up at her home driveway and provided her with papers that he claimed was evidence of fraud in which he didn't actually lose his election by 50 percentage points here in albuquerque. and she said that he was unreasonable, unsettling, angry, and that is when her home was shot up in the middle of night, one month later. the next day when they found the shell casings there, she said, of course, her mind went to solomon pena, that is when she called authorities and turned them on to this individual. take a listen to part of our interview. >> and so when you saw these, when you and your husband found these bullet holes here, you thought what? >> well, i was certainly upset about it. i mean, the first thing i thought is, you know, i think of my grandkids. they could have been staying the night or something like that. and immediately i was grateful that we have this wall, which is adobe, that stopped them. well, as you can imagine, you know, i really -- i live in a

neighborhood which, you know, i want to be accessible to my constituency. i'm a local official. i just -- it is saddened me that this is happening in our country. clearly we can see it all over. this narrative of we're cheated, we were -- everything was rigged, there is fraud, come on. you know. i grew up with a value set if you lost, you know, you accepted that with grace. >> reporter: nicolle, after 20 years and in local public office, debbie o'malley retired at the end of 2022 and this is what, to be frank, she was greeted with here at the end of her tenure in public office. and when you look at the lengths in which this individual went, sending text messages to the multiple individuals, the prosecutors say, with specific addresses, and with directions, shell casings were found inside a vehicle registered to solomon pena, this is an individual who

clearly believed that he should be in public office and that the election was rigged against him. it is not even an alternate reality. it is just a fantasy and yet you're seeing the implications potentially deadly ones that are at play here, not only in this situation, but the paul pelosi attack, the cincinnati fbi offices being attacked by a gunman in august, there is real implications and especially when you look at debbie o'malley face to face, it becomes all the more evident. >> miles, donald trump started talking about things being rigged against him, i think in 2016, when he was looking to plus up his popular vote number. so it wasn't a phenomenon of his defeat. it was a phenomenon of the grievances from which he governed with from day one. when you listen to debbie o'malley talk about the narrative that endangers her life and talking about potentially her grandkids, it is such a pity and shame that no

republicans wanted to do more to push back against trump. >> yeah, nicolle, i'm glad that you went back in time there, because this isn't just about january 6th, and it is not just about the 2020 stolen election lie. the narrative was seeded much earlier than that and the data tracks it closely when trump took office, i remember getting those initial briefings on domestic terrorism plots and there were a few hundred around the country. by the time he left, we had 3,000 domestic terrorist plots across the country according to christopher wray. and if people watching are looking to contextualize this, what does that mean? it means that right now we are witnessing the largest spike in threats to public servants in modern history. the level of chatter by volume is greater than it was against public servants after 9/11 and other periods. that is how to contextualize this, we have never seen anything like it, and, you know,

as debbie reported, in that conversation, basically what is happening with these extreme republican candidates is that if they don't get the ballots, they're turning to bullets and we're seeing that go mainstream. there was a conservative conference, a big conservative conference in 2021 where i remember a young man went up to the microphone and said, when do we get the guns? and he said i'm not joking, how many elections are these people going to steal before we start killing them? and to add on top of that, you now have those terrorist sympathizers like marjorie taylor greene who supports some of those domestic terrorist actions serving in congress and on key committees. and this is ultimately what you get when there is not as much choice and competition anymore in the democratic process, and parties like the republican party are electing extremists in those primary processes. >> to miles' point, it is interesting that the mayor and

other officials in albuquerque are pointing to the problematic and dangerous rhetoric on the national stage, on the national debate, they tie the alleged shooter's conduct to the toxicity of the national conversation around rigged elections. and i wonder if any national leaders have offered to help or support. >> it is a good question. we heard little on the national stages as it pertains to this episode here and these four shootings that took place over the course of more than a month here. and i think it goes to the heart of, you know, you guys were saying here, debbie o'malley telling me that as part of the exchange in her driveway with solomon pena, that he told her that he knocked on all these doors across the community and there is no possible way he didn't receive more votes. and you have been in politics, nicolle, you know door knocking and canvassing on a political campaign is not easy work. and yet part of this civil

process here is convincing your fellow neighbors to go to the polls and vote for you. and as debbie o'malley said this is a heavily democratic district. and it should -- it is wild that one could assume that just because you knock on doors, somehow you're going to go and win the election here. this is -- it is troubling and it comes down to a local level, but also very much at the national stage too. >> vaughn hillyard, always there for us, our eyes and ears. thank you so much for being there and spending time with us today. miles taylor, thank you for being part of these difficult conversations. we're grateful. as we mentioned the d.a. in albuquerque will be our guest at the top of the hour. up next for us, the breaking news out of ukraine on that deadly helicopter crash. there is reaction from president zelenskyy in a live report from the ground. and igor novakov will join us as well. novakov will join us as well ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better?

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even made some themselves. makes you wonder... what will they do for an encore? ♪♪ ten hours ago, a tragedy happened near kyiv. a helicopter crashed and the lives of the minister of the internal affairs of ukraine, his colleagues and helicopter crew fell on a kindergarten. ukrainian families lost their loved ones today and many more.

losing because of the war. and i shall ask you to honor the memory of every person that was lost with a minute of silence, please. >> that was ukrainian president zelenskyy striking a sad and somber tone with a moment of silence as he addressed the world economic forum earlier today in davos on the heels of another tragedy in his country. 14 people, including ukraine's interior minister, were killed after a helicopter crash near a kindergarten, 15 miles outside of kyiv. this morning, just as school was beginning, also taking the life of one child. the interior minister is the highest ranking government official to die since the war began almost exactly one year ago. the cause of the crash is currently under investigation with multiple causes being investigated by ukraine's security services, including

malfunction, or even, quote, deliberate actions to destroy the vehicle. let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez live from kyiv, ukraine, for us. igor novikov is back with us, the former adviser to president zelenskyy. take us through what we know at this hour. >> reporter: nicolle, 14 people are dead as you mentioned, including one child, and the interior minister of ukraine. he was one of the most powerful people in president zelenskyy's cabinet. it is a position roughly equivalent, you could say, to the u.s. secretary of homeland security. but actually much more expansive powers, in charge of the police in this country, in charge of the emergency services, and in charge in general for internal security at a time when this country is fighting off a russian invasion. nicolle, we drove to the chernobyl nuclear power plant earlier today, we drove through a dozen or so ukrainian checkpoints, many of those are under the interior ministry.

now, one child killed, 11 more injured, and in hospital from this crash today. and the reason for that is this helicopter went down at 8:20 a.m. in the morning, right next to a kindergarten in that suburb of kyiv, right as parents were dropping their kids off at school. the child who died was inside that kindergarten at the time. we spent most of the day at the crash site, we saw rescue officials removing bodies from that kindergarten. i got to tell you, nicolle, it was a very normal suburb, as normal as a suburb can be in a country that is at war, until this morning that helicopter crashing down. as you mentioned, president zelenskyy has said it is the top priority of the ukrainian government to figure out what happened here. the security -- state security agency of ukraine looking into possibility of pilot error. there was heavy fog here in kyiv this morning.

some kind of technical malfunction on that government aircraft, or as you said, the possibility that this was some kind of deliberate act. now, there is nothing right now which indicates the helicopter was shot down by russian forces, we have not seen any russian aircraft over the city today. we have not seen any signs of russian missile activity. but, of course, when an official this senior not only the interior administration saying, his deputy, several of the top officials from his department also killed in that crash. you can understand why the state security agency wants to run down every lead. now, one of the other deputy ministers has been appointed to fill that role temporarily. but this is a very senior position in the war time government of ukraine and they will want to fill it on a permanent basis soon. nicolle? >> absolutely horrific. thank you so much for what must be very difficult reporting, raf sanchez live for us in kyiv. thank you. igor, i turn to you, my friend.

it is a cruel, cruel, cruel story to cover from here. it must be as your president said, a terrible sadness and loss for the people of ukraine today. >> well, hi, nicolle. everyone is completely devastated. i've spoken with the president's office and they're holding back the tears, but, you know, we have grown accustomed to accept death in the predictable battle on the front lines during missile attacks. when it happens like this and it is so tragic, it is just unbearable. two examples i can give you. first of all, to add to the reporting, the only child that was killed, you know, his -- that child's mother has died as well. so, this poor man and i've seen an interview with him, lost his wife and child. also think of that helicopter pilot, he had to choose where to crash the helicopter and his choice was between a high rise building and smaller building he

didn't know was a kindergarten. it is just horrific. >> igor, tell me how something like this -- i see how it affects you, how does it affect your country at this moment? the president was addressing the global community at davos, it is a vital point in the war on the battlefield, but also feels like a vital point for the country to stay strong with this winter coming, with russia's strategy to be plainly and clearly and explicitly to terrorize the civilian population, just take me through how you're all doing. >> well, first of all, i'll leave with a positive story, because i have to tell one, but before that, actually i want to comment on something my colleague said from kyiv. he said that no sightings of russian aircraft over kyiv,

that's because we have defenses provided by our allies and no chance you'll see a russian aircraft over kyiv anytime soon given what we have. so that should continue because that saves lives. but the positive story in how country is coping, everyone is coming together. first of all, you know, one of the private hospitals in that area opened its doors free of charge to anyone in need of medical help within minutes of that crash, which is just incredible, the ukrainian spirit. and also i'm pleased to report we seem to have solved the problem of the ukraine fatigue. so, this company with air media attack, they reached out to me and their company would like a trillion views on youtube, so a big company. they said, why don't we just build a platform for people to donate content to keep ukraine in the spotlight and that's is live aid 2.0. we're working on that. i'll be speaking with you about that, but i think we solved one

of the biggest problems that have, ukraine fatigue and the attention. all and all, there is positivity. you have to look for it. >> i mean, i hear this on and off tv, that what you see in the ukrainian president, you see in ukrainian leaders, people like yourself, and you see in small villages in ukraine, and that you prove it out is amazing. i have to quibble with the idea of ukraine fatigue. i don't know if you see all of your followers and admirers that watch this show. there is no fatigue. i want to ask you more, though, about this platform. this is something you and i have been thinking on for a long time. stick around for a quick break. more with igor after that. don't go anywhere. re with igor . don't go anywhere.

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or go to loveshriners.org right away we're back with our good friend, igor, for whom there is never any fatigue. tell me more about this new platform and how people can access and support it. >> well, we're in the process of building it with the company called media tech, but the idea is simple. people are donating money, equipment and weapons to ukraine, but all of that doesn't matter if people forget about ukraine. so we need attention donations, right? and in order to achieve those, we're going to be reaching out to content creators, to celebrities, to everyone who has an audience to share and donate some exclusive content and we're going to put it all in one place. we're figuring out the logistics now. and basically that place will be

the constant reminder, the constant spotlight for the fact that ukraine exists. so people remember us not only because of the tragedies that happen, but also because of something that people have made to make people feel good. so i'm going to be speaking about that with you once we get on the phone at some point. >> february 24th is the one-year anniversary of the beginning of the war and i was thinking it's been since july 1st since we did the special. i was thinking about that this morning when i was running it, i was thinking, do we try to do another? i don't think there's any lack of will to help and support the ukrainian people. i think maybe we are running out of the imagination to figure out how to do that. so can we continue to have that conversation? do you have any thoughts right now, as i put you on the spot? >> well, you didn't put me on the spot. my profession is attention, so creativity is not a problem. it's a matter of putting it together in such a way that people appreciate it and we can

hold onto their attention. and i have ideas. we don't have enough time for me to share them, but i do have them. and i think the anniversary is the perfect timeframe for us to do something that will save lives and attention does save lives. the reason putin doesn't use -- >> go ahead. >> the reason putin doesn't use as many unguided munitions like he used in dnipro as he could, is because the world is paying attention to his atrocities. the moment you look away, that's when the bombs start flying. >> we will never look away. we will continue to have this conversation. i'll call you in about an hour to hear what you're cooking off. i hope you feel that you are beloved by all the viewers of this program. thank you very much for spending time with us today. up next for us, the district attorney who will be prosecuting the far right maga candidate accused of orchestrating attacks

on his democratic rivals will be our guest after a very short break. you don't want to miss this. don't go anywhere. when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com.

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it is very scary, and i'm just grateful that no one was hurt, number one. number two, i'm glad and grateful for the tremendous work of our local law enforcement agencies, which worked day and night to get to the bottom of this. and i am confident that our justice system will hold this individual and any accomplices accountable.

>> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. we are all glad and grateful today, as we said, to have avoided catastrophe in albuquerque, new mexico, and with the meticulous work of law enforcement, investigation all leading up to this today. a short time ago solomon pena, the failed republican candidate accused of hiring people to shoot at the homes of local democratic leaders, was arraigned in court. he faces a number of charges related to that effort and the state of new mexico has moved to hold him in pretrial detention. arrests like this don't just happen, it takes the law enforcement community working hand and glove and the officers who collected the first evidence, to police leadership, all the way up to the d.a.'s office responsible for ultimately presenting a case to a jury. as we told you in the last hour, our next guest is making his first television appearance since this afternoon's arraignment. joining us now, new mexico

district attorney sam gregman, the top prosecutor in bernalillo county. what can you tell us about this case so far and where things stand today? >> well, he's still detained and he will be until a hearing in district court coming up either at the end of this week or the first part of next week and then we'll go from there. >> my colleague, vaughn hillyard, is on the ground, and it's clear that he was a menace known to some of the victims. can you tell us -- i mean, this investigation was kept out of the public arena to protect the investigation, but was he always a suspect? >> you know, i don't know that he was -- somewhat, but certainly i think we found pieces to the puzzle, and apd did a tremendous job, the albuquerque police department

did a tremendous job on putting some of these pieces together, and we believe we have certainly more than enough evidence to proceed with these charges, obviously. and, yeah, i mean, we obviously want to protect the integrity of the investigation, so we're not disclosing a lot of it, but we did know about many of these things leading up to this. >> i just want to read from the arrest warrant from mr. pena, because we have a privilege of speaking to lots of election officials and elected officials and i think this is everyone's nightmare, certainly everyone or anyone with family or kids at home, if i could just read this to you. state senator linda lopez heard loud bangs, but dismissed them as fireworks at the time. she did not observe any immediate damage to her house. during this time, state senator linda lopez's 10-year-old daughter told her mother that she believed a spider woke her up by crawling on her face. linda went to sleep with her daughter in her bed. while in bed, linda's daughter

asked why it felt like there was sand in the bed. a few hours later at daylight, linda lopez noticed there were holes in her house, apparently from gunfire. she called police at 7:42 in the morning. officers arrived and learned that linda and her daughter woke up at the time of the gunfire. they heard a loud number of bangs. as it turns out, sheetrock dust was blown onto linda's daughter's face and bed, resulting from firearm projectiles passing inside her bedroom overhead. it is a story both of the meticulousness of the investigation, but also of how close your community came to an absolutely horrific tragedy. >> and it is a tragedy in so many ways right now, still, because this is an attack on democracy. i don't care if it's a republican or a democrat, but when you are using violence to attack elected officials, it is so unacceptable, it's beyond the

pale. and i think everybody in this community is outraged and, quite frankly, pissed off about it, and so are we here at the d.a. office. we're going to make sure we bring this person to justice. obviously anybody charged is innocent unless they're proven guilty in a court of law. at the same time we believe, obviously, and the judge found probable cause so far in the criminal complaint earlier today, that we have the necessary evidence to go forward. and we will make sure we do everything we can to bring justice to this individual, and obviously when you talk about an attack on democracy, when you talk about trying to intimidate elected officials, trying to terrify them and their families, it is outrageous conduct, it will not stand. >> how much of the national conversation is a part of this suspect's profile? >> well, listen, i think you've

probably seen and you know some of the postings he's made and the election denying stuff. but, you know, i'm a firm and strong believer in the first amendment and people's ability to talk about what they choose to talk about. but everybody needs to be aware that when you are taking things to an extreme and you have people -- this, unfortunately, may be the next step to extremism that we're seeing in albuquerque, it's a problem now in this community, it's a problem, i think, across the country that we've now had it so that politics is becoming violent politics, and that is just unacceptable. we need to make sure we continue to have the respect for the rule of law, we're going to make sure over here. >> you know, one of the capital police officers who responded to the january 6th insurrection pleaded with congress, his name is harry dunn, and he made the point not just to find the foot

soldiers, but to find the people who hired them and sent them. and it seems that your law enforcement and legal work so far, you've found the person who hired four people to go out and shoot at democratic election officials. i wonder what you think about getting to the root of what you're talking about, the lies about election denialism. this was an individual that didn't lose in a close election. it's my understanding he lost by 50 percentage points. do you think that someone who lost by 50 percentage points would resort to violence if the national conversation wasn't dominated in one party by conversations of rigged and stolen elections? >> i can't speak with any kind of certainty toward that, but i can tell you that what happens when we have this kind of of extremism, postings about politics and elections, unfortunately this may be the result of exactly that.

you can see from his postings in the past that this is a man who walked up to literally the homes of some of these elected officials to complain about how he knocked on every door, therefore he should have all the votes he needed. but it's just outrageous behavior and i can only tell you that every elected official from the local level, the state level, and obviously the national level needs to take a good look at what's going on here in our politics in this country. because we can't lose respect for the rule of law, we can't get to a situation where in any way violence, when it comes to your political views, that you want to terrify, intimidate, threaten elected officials, regardless of what they say. i mean, what happens next is people start worrying about whether or not they really want to expose their families to being an elected official because it may be dangerous for them. and that is the last thing we want. we want our democracy to work

and people to participate in it. and that's why this case is so important to this office, to this community, because this is an attack on everyone when it comes to democracy. >> yeah, and i want to ask your opinion. we have talked about it in the context of the violent attack and targeting of speaker pelosi and her husband, paul pelosi, the targeting of the united states capitol and what those law enforcement officials described as hand-to-hand combat that was medieval. do you view what has happened in your community as part of a broader conversation of people turning to violence when the political process doesn't result in their desired outcome? >> we're obviously seeing it. we are obviously seeing that play out here. we believe that this was absolutely politically motivated and that's a sad statement for our country, for our democracy, and for our local community. and i can tell you that

everybody here is very upset with it and that's why we're going to do everything we can to bring justice. >> as an important part of protecting your community and sort of standing on that line when it comes to the rule of law, would it be helpful if prominent republicans condemned political violence? would that help you protect the community? >> well, i think overall i can tell you the local legislators here certainly in regards to republican or democrats, were outraged as well. i mean, every elected official needs to know that if this can happen here to these individuals, who next can it happen to? i understand political rhetoric. i understand that. but at the same time, we have to be careful in what we are constantly throwing out there as political rhetoric, because people who are a convicted felon like this individual was can

resort to this kind of behavior after they lose an election and think that violence is the solution to them losing an election. and it isn't, but we have to be careful, as all elected leaders, to be sure. because otherwise the other person is going to be the next elected official in the community next door or the state next door, or of course what we saw in washington. so it's really important and i think everybody recognizes it and calms down. you asked whether or not i think the republicans should do it. i think everybody should do what they can to kind of tone down the political posting of garbage, quite frankly, out there, and just focus on what their issues may be. because you do have crazy things that are resulting from this and people are -- in this case, thank god no one was physically hurt. but i can tell you emotionally they were very scarred and they continue to be scarred and their

families are scared and that's unacceptable in a democracy. >> has there ever been any example of an election being wrong by 50%? i mean, this idea of fraud, a result that was off by 50%, is there any precedent for that in albuquerque, new mexico? >> not in albuquerque, new mexico. i would be surprised if that's happened anywhere in this country, especially in a situation like this. so no is the short answer. >> district attorney bregman, you, like all of the leaders we've seen, we've carried every press conference that has happened, and you are all exactly what i think americans want in their elected officials, protecting your community and telling the truth and sharing the facts of this case when it is possible to do so with the media. so all of our gratitude to you. thank you so much for making time for us today. >> thank you very much.

joining our coverage, barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of michigan and senior opinion writer for the boston globe, and msnbc contributors. barbara, i almost want to cry. this is exactly, i think, who we all want -- i have no idea what his politics are, but what we all want to know is protecting the rule of law in our city or town or neighborhood, and with absolutely no eye toward partisanship, of course there was no fraud in albuquerque, new mexico. of course no fraud on the scale of the 50% gap by which mr. pena lost by, it has never occurred in albuquerque or anywhere else in this country, as he said. and of course the violent rhetoric has a straight line to the targeting of four democratic public officials in albuquerque. >> absolutely. sometimes it's refreshing when someone just states the obvious

facts, isn't it? >> yes. >> we have become accustomed to hearing a crazy spin. when someone says that which is true, it sounds so fresh and new. but i agree with him about what an incredibly concerning development this is for our country, for his community, and for our democracy. i think most of us like to think that january 6th was just an incredible aberration that never happened before and will never happen again, and yet we are hearing about these other attacks that are really troubling. in my own state we had the kidnapping plot of gretchen whitmer when people were unhappy with her shutdown orders, vigilante justice. and this, a disgruntled candidate who refuses to concede and takes to firearms to go after, whether it's to intimidate or retaliate against people who would not help him solve his problem. i think the passage you read

about the 10-year-old girl in her bed is absolutely chilling. and but for some good luck, we could have blood on the hands of this failed candidate. so it's a serious problem and we need leaders to step back, to step up, and say this is not tolerable in america. >> i guess the real problem, and if we're going to be really blunt here, it is tolerable on the right. i mean, we had democrats and republicans testify to the horrors that they and their families -- i mean, brad raffensperger's wife's text to senator loeffler who lost were harrowing. my husband is going to get killed, you have blood on your hands. the threats to rusty bowers, both of them had sick kids in their homes being threatened and targeted with their kids in the homes. ruby freeman, congressman swalwell's death threat he got after he was removed from his congressional committees. they are not only tolerated,

barbara, they seem to be rewarded with committee assignments by the very members who incite them and cheer them on. >> yeah, i don't know what it's going to take to get people to care. maybe it will take a magic death. we already had a number of tragic deaths on january 6th between officer sick in this case, a number of people who died, and yet that doesn't get their attention. i sometimes feel like it isn't that we're living in a post-truth world but a post-shame world. people know the truth and yet they are willing to look the other way when people committee these acts of violence based on lies. and at some point we really need to take back our commitment to the truth and not allow people to engage in violence based on what we know to be disinformation. >> kim, i wanted to make sure that we in the media weren't tying things together that the community of albuquerque didn't

see as connected, which is why i asked him about january 6th and the attack on speaker paul pelosi. but i think if you're in a community defending itself from an individual like mr. pena, the suspected shooter who was an adherent of election denialism, who was a fan and supporter of the twice-impeached ex-president donald trump, who ran and lost his election by 50 points and wanted violence to read out the result he couldn't achieve during the democratic process, to him, it was, of course they're all connected. i wonder where you think this conversation is heading. it doesn't seem to be one that anyone on the right wants to sustain, but it does seem to be the new reality, the new normal in american politics. >> it really does, and if there's anything that i was disappointed from the work of the january 6th committee, which was commendable and really important, it was the fact that one of the areas they were tasked with exploring is the

exact kind of violent extremism and the role that it played, and what we do know from the data that we have, including this instance, is that the sort of nationalized look of it, the proud boys and the oath keepers, that is sort of tamped down. they dissolved their national organizations and what happened is the extremism went local, it diffused across the country in a way that's much harder to track in a national way, but local officials need to be much more vigilant about policing. i think that's where this is going. i think it's really important to talk about this and talk about this in connection and how they are related, because i think that's what is lying ahead. there may not be another january 6th, but there will be these local instances of the same kind of politically motivated violence, the same kind of rhetoric, the same kind of denialism that can still get people killed and still

threatens our democracy just the same. >> i mean, kim, something else mr. bregman said, the intimidation has already happened. so to the degree that pushing people like ruby freeman and these officials out of their work, these aren't well paid jobs. some aren't paid at all to serve as representatives in your neighborhood, help administer elections or count ballots, count them four, five, six, seven times. the point is to intimidate them and in some ways, in terms of the far right, that mission has already been accomplished, kim. >> yeah, it has. you have fewer people who are willing to run for office, people who are afraid. and this isn't just happening on that level. this is happening with school boards and other local races, people who want to be involved in government and they're being scared away from it. that's the threat to democracy. and it's working. it's working in little bits across the country. so it's really important to keep an eye on this, and for people

all the way up to congress to remain as laser focused on these types of attacks as they were at getting to the bottom of what led to the insurrectionists storming the capitol on january 6th. >> barbara and kim are sticking around. when we come back, how increasingly partisan decisions at the u.s. supreme court have stripped away much of the civility that was among the justices. a long-term court watcher says they don't seem to be getting along. >> later in the show, with reproductive rights under assault by republicans across the country, police in illinois are investigating an arson attack at a women's health clinic just days after abortion protections were enshrined into law there. we'll discuss the future of abortion access in this country 50 years after roe v. wade. we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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an extraordinary new piece of reporting in the atlantic feels back the curtain on a supreme court rife with tension and disagreements that are now spilling out into the open. steven mazie details the difference, justices of sharply different legal views have been dinner-party friends, skeet-shooting pals and opera companions. it has always limited the justice's opinions but it was limited to pen and paper. on the bench, civility reigned.

not anymore. i've been attending supreme court arguments since 2013. what i have seen this term on open display inside the courtroom is an obvious departure from the collegiality of years past. that discord is due to the court's new composition, he says, adding the supreme court of donald trump, the supreme court that donald trump reshaped isn't simply more conservative. it's also much more strained. the tension is not on display every day, but when i'd logic workplace subjects come up, there are fractured relationships. the worry is more urgent when the interpersonal dynamics are among the journalists of the supreme court. steven mazie is a writer for the economist. this piece is just jaw-dropping

and it shows that some of the tea leaves we read are not all wrong. take us through the impact and maybe the before and after of not just the dobbs decision, but the dobbs leak. >> sure. well, thank you so much for having me on. it's great to see kim, who is one of my first friends at the court about ten years ago. i don't want to overstate things. there's that little caveat at the end of the piece, right, the justices are not throwing gav gavels at each other, they're not calling each other names. as with most cases, they are keeping calm and carrying on. but the vibes are not great for these bigger cases. specifically the affirmative action cases that were heard in october and the case involving gay rights and religious liberty that was heard in december. so i think we need to peel things back a little bit.

it is about dobbs and it's about the dobbs leak, but can we just take a count of the tumult that we have seen at the supreme court over the past few years? we have four new justices who have joined the court since 2017, about five and a half years we've had about half of the court change personnel. three of those battles were really pitched and wrenching, and one of them resulted in ruth bader ginsberg's seat flipping to amy comey barrett. we haven't seen an idealogical change like that since 1991 when clarence thomas succeeded thurgood marshal. so take all of that and the seat that mitch mcconnell held open for justice gorsuch, and dobbs and the leak that happened in may, and then add all the other decisions at the end of june. it wasn't just dobbs. the supreme court knee-capped

the federal government's ability to address climate change, it greatly expanded the right to bear arms, and it basically took another few bricks out of the wall of separating church and state. so after a testy term like that, i think it would be strange if we didn't see some evidence of tension among the justices, especially where we have this unprecedented, in recent memory, imbalance of six justices on one side and three on the other. i think this is the beginning of sort of a rejigging of relationships on the bench, and from what i've seen this fall and winter, it's not hunky-dory. the justices are having some trouble interacting with the same sort of civility that they have for years. >> one of the things we note, certainly over the last 12 months of covering the dobbs decision, is that roe and casey

were decided by justices with democrats and republicans voting in the majority, and dobbs was, you know -- the supreme court has become a party line institution completely around these cultural issues. at the same time, the justices who go out and give public speeches do a lot of whining, a lot of complaining about how the court is perceived. do they not see their own partisanship? >> well, there has been an extraordinary amount of public speaking about the court by the justices over the past year plus. there was the, i think, tone-deaf attempt by justice amy coney barrett to make the claim that we are not partisan hacks, we are opinions, we are doing good law here, and where did she make that declaration? from an institution that's dedicated to mitch mcconnell. and after the supreme court's decisions at the end of june,

there was a flurry of conversation, sort of one-way parallel conversation among the justices to the press at law schools and at other speeches, where chief justice roberts started it off by saying you can disagree with individuals and their opinions, but it's a different thing to criticize the legitimacy of the court. and justice alito made that point later in the summer, saying, you know, this crosses an important line, to characterize the justices as not acting in good faith or the court as not a legitimate institution. and this was at the same time that justice kagan had made some claims sort of in the opposite direction. so they're having this conversation right before the new supreme court term starts, and i think it was kind of inevitable that the tensions that were playing out in those

discussions would enter the courtroom from time to time. they do a pretty good job of keeping a cap on their interpersonal battles normally, but there are some raised eyebrows, some rolled eyes, some looks and occasionally sharp tongues. >> i have to sneak in a quick break. i want to bring kim and barb on the other side. please stay with us. no one is going anywhere. we'll be right back. ight back.

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when courts become extensions of the political process, when people see them as extensions of the political process, when people see them as trying to impose personal preferences on a society, irrespective of the law, that's when there's a problem, and that's when there ought to be a problem. >> now, the sponsors of this bill, the house bill in mississippi said we're doing it because we have new justices. the newest ban that mississippi has put in place, the six-week ban, the senate sponsor said we're doing it because we have new justices on the supreme court. will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the

constitution and its reading are just political acts? i don't see how it is possible. >> we're back with steven, barbara, kimberly. i don't know the answer to justice sotomayor's question, but we have tracked the polling, from august of 2000, 62% of americans approved of the court, september 2022, it was down to 40%. polls have it even lower in terms of strongly approve and strongly trust the institution. i see numbers as low as 23%. what justice sotomayor said is collect about republican legislators. they waited until these seats were filled and then they passed their abortion ban. it is being manufactured all across the country, there have been profiles that the

anti-abortion was crafted to make its way to the supreme court. this is what they are doing on the republican side. so how, if ever, does this stench go away from this institution? >> well, this is good evidence that there were barbed tongues before this term. that was very notable in that argument. and i would just add one more thing about timing. when mississippi petitioned the supreme court to consider whether its 15-week abortion ban was constitutional, they didn't lead with let's overrule roe v. wade, this was not their main argument. it was only after ruth bader ginsberg died and amy coney barrett became justice barrett that they increased their ask. they said we don't just want this 15-week ban upheld, we would like tou abandon the

precedents that allow women to have abortion rights in toto. so it's a clear -- i mean, it's an unmistakable reality that the supreme court justices change and the arguments change and the pleas change, and they thought they had a receptive audience for overturning roe v. wade, only after they saw that the court's composition had changed. so what justice sotomayor said in the oral argument about the stench, i mean, for some people it's a stench. for others, it's a very rosy snell that those who are happy that this longstanding, almost 50-year-old precedent has been overturned, will say, and justice alito, the author, says this was a fabricated right, it doesn't have any grounding in the constitution. there is no right to privacy and there's definitely no right to abort one's fetus.

so it depends, as in other corners of american politics which side you're on how the court's aroma seems to you these days. >> and, kim, i guess the problem structurally for the institution and its stench in the words of justice sotomayor is roe, all of the members described it under oath in the senate and confirmation hearings as settled law and precedent. so i think to the public, the 60% who disapprove of the institution and agree with justice sotomayor about its stench, there was evidence in the confirmation they, at worst lied, at best didn't tell the whole truth. on the policy and substance, roe was viewed as law by 67% of americans. so even if you agreed with the outcome, it's a microminority of americans. >> yeah, i think that just points to the fact that among the factors that steven was talking about, the dobbs

decision is really central to it. i don't want people walking away thinking just because there are sharp exchanges on the court during an oral argument that that means the justices don't like each other. he's getting to something that's much bigger. it's how much this institution has been obviously shaken by what happened with the dobbs decision itself, as well as the way that it was leaked. i don't believe that the justices lied during their confirmation hearing, if you listen to how carefully they answered the question about what was precedent. i believe it's evidence of how broken the confirmation process is. it's no longer meant to learn anything substantive about the people who are nominated to this court. it's a bit of theatre that allows members of the senate judiciary committee to perform for a while and get sound bites. that's a big problem with why the supreme court as an institution is where it is. but i'm concerned about what it means for americans and the functionality of it. look, like steven knows, by now we would have been getting

opinions from this term in the supreme court since about november. the supreme court has not issued a single opinion this term. that says to me that they are having trouble functioning, they are having trouble just getting out the opinions, whether it's because they're so divided that they are -- each opinion is so divided that they're still working on dissents and other concurring opinions, and it takes longer to get out. does it mean that they have not been able to gel after not just everything steven is talking about, but there's been a pandemic that put them remote for two years like the rest of us. there's a new justice, ketanji brown jackson, that has barely had a chance to get to know everybody. this institution is not operating the way it did when steven and i sat in the press corp. ten years ago. that's a big problem and that's what we should be concerned about. >> the court, like many institutions, doesn't seem to believe in professionalizing anything public-facing.

they seem very uncomfortable, sort of like cats on a hot roof, with their sinking public approval. so i'm going to guess they would like to be held in higher regard. one of the problems -- and i remember mitch mcconnell in the studio when trump was a candidate saying, yeah, i'm going to support him and he had to crinkle that piece of paper. it was the federal society's list of judicial nominees that trump had committed to appointing if he won. it looks very rigged on the right, that there's a list, there's a checklist, and then the results seem to prove it to the 60% of americans who disapprove of the court, that while roe and casey were decided with political diversity, dobbs was overturned on a strict party line vote. what can the court do? and i don't even know that it wants to fix this. but if they did, what could they do to change their perception problems, barb? >> well, i think the perception problem is based on a reality

that since the 1980s the court has had an agenda. there's been a political agenda from the right to take back the court, a laser-like focus on packing the court and using power to overturn roe v. wade. i think if the court wants to remedy this, this is about adhering to the principles, it is about using judicial restraint, it's about having humility, and not exercising the vote because they have the ability to do it. the reason the public has lost so much confidence in this court is the way the court decided this case, rather than adhere to 50 years of precedent. the court overturned that precedent, and sometimes that's appropriate. but the traditional factors courts look to in overturning precedent are a number of things. has the public relied on this decision? and if not, maybe it should be overturned. has our understanding of the facts or the law changed? that would be a basis for overturning it. has a law developed around this

issue that's inconsistent with our ruling in this case. that would be a basis for overturning it. none of those factor was true in this case. instead, what justice alito said in his opinion is this case was a egregiously wrong when it was decided and wrong today. it was simply the change in the makeup of the court and their personal opinions of this ruling that caused them to change. it reminded me of an incident that occurred in the late '90s when i first became a prosecutor and there was a concern that the court was going to overturn a case called dickerson. ultimately the court chose not to overturn mirror canada. what the justice wrote at the time is, if we were writing on a clean slate this should not be a rule, but i'm not writing on a clean slate. there is precedent to follow here. and the rule has worked in practice, all of those factors about adhering to precedent. in this case they point toward

upholding the precedent and that's what we're going to do. that is the kind of judicial restraint and humility that has been missing in this court. >> their numbers reflect that. steven mazie, it's a detailed piece of reporting. thank you so much for joining us. barbara mcquade and kim adkins, stick around a little longer with us. when we come back, the future, given this conversation, of reproductive rights in america 50 years after roe, and just days after an attack on an illinois health care clinic. that story is next.

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ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪ just two days after the governor of illinois, j.b. pritzker, signed into law sweeping legislation safeguarding abortion rights, including protection for out of state abortion seekers, a planned parent hood in that state was damaged by a fire that authorities say was caused by arson. a spokesperson for the police department says the fire was reported by a bystander who noticed an unknown suspect throwing a flammable item into a public building. no one was in the building at the time and the fire department quickly put out the fire, but the facility sustained smoke and fire damage and the fire chief said it would most likely be closed for more than a month. we're back with barbara mcquade and kim adkins. this is the tale, and not a very long tale, of politicizing these

issues, and justice sotomayor's sort of framing the stench, of writing restrictive bans for their states pushing them through knowing the court will have their back. it creates a climate where abortion is -- i guess it always has been, but more front and center in our divisive politics. in this case, our violent ones. >> i think there is such irresponsible leadership in politics at times when people will fulment the outrage to advance their careers. i was always taught in law enforcement that effective leaders bring calm to chaos, they talk about things rashlly and appeal to logic. and appeal to logic. you know there is somebody out

there who is going to take the bait it means random. that there is somebody out there who with hear these. i don't know but someone will answer that call and so when you say outrageous things about abortion and killing babies and all of the things that are said, you know somebody will take the bait andwi the violence stops wn our rhetoric de-escalates and need bold politicians and hold them accountable. >> you know, kim, one of the new hallmarks of the american right is something that didn't exist as much when i was a practicing republican and that is that victory begets rage. when trump won the right was more agitated than in 2015 and before his victory in 2016. when roe versus wade was finally

overturned, the mission statement of the far american right there were no celebrations on the right. they put in place policies that have 93% of the american people on the other side, ban that's eliminate exceptions are to rape, incest and life of the mother. the rage headline is being fueled bye something so uniqueo the far right. >> yeah, it's absolutely true. this friday is the march for life which used to commemorate roe this an effort to try to overturn it but they're still doing it because now it's about something else. now it's about national bans or more restrictive laws or just pushing the envelope farther and farther and farther.an i think ultimately as you pointed out, americans have shown that they are on the side of reproductive access, reproductive rights access and i think in the long term this is a dying fight but before it dies we'rere seeing it become more violent and more rageful as you

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one thing we know is that right now we are standing here in our history, in our shared history, this our collective history made by people who over the past two centuries regardless of their origin story to this state fought and built a state and a country that works for everybody. >> history was made in maryland today. that was democrat wes moore. he was sworn in as governor with his hand on a bible once owned by frederick douglass. the marylander who escaped slavery, moore is the first black governor in the state's history and just the third elected in all u.s. history. moore's running mate is also rewriting history. she was sworn in as the first woman of color to serves maryland's lieutenant governor. together moore said their journey has, quote, never been about making history it's about marching forward. a quick break for us. we will be right back.

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