>> thanks for watching msnbc reports. i'm cory coffin. katie fang is back tomorrow at 7 am eastern. velshi starts right now. >> today on velshi, the very latest on how power is playing out in a divided congress, including which trump allies landed themselves he assignments in the republican

-led congress, and why it really matters for everything from health care to global and national security, to the balance in your 401k. plus, i will talk to yuri salk, the adviser to ukraine defense minister about a very important week for ukraine, and a -- new evidence that ending roe was not enough for the anti abortion lobby in this country. the war against reproductive rights rages on, and it's worse than you would think. i will call this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club comes together. it is a celebration of mother daughter love and it has been banned. i will talk to the author, graceland, about why the story is so important. ahead. velshi starts now. . >> good morning, i'm ali velshi, it is saturday january 21st. it is two years of the day since president biden's presidential moderation. we begin with a dire warning to the present day, but to do so,

let's go back in history to this famous exchange. >> little did i dream you could be so reckless and so cruel asked to do an injury to that land. let us not assassinate this land, senator. you have done enough. we have you no sense of decency, sir? e >> those famous lines uttered by the lawyer joseph wells on june 9th 1954, effectively marks the end of mccarthy-ism and the investigations that wisconsin senator joseph mccarthy was conducting as chair of the senate permanent subcommittee on investigations, which was created initially to investigate government fraud and waste, but which he quickly turned into a political path project to investigate what mccarthy claimed was communist infiltration at all levels of the government. the origins of the mccarthy investigation can be traced back to post world war i, and the olbermann committee, which

was a subcommittee of the senate judiciary committee. and then to the house special committee to investigate communist activities in the united states. also known as the fish committee formed and chaired by new york representative hamilton fish. the fish committee eventually morphed into the house american committee, which was found in 1948, and shared with texas representative martin dies. much like mccarthy 12 years later, on the surface, the house on american activities committee was meant to investigate communism in pronouncing groups in america, but in reality, it conducted a vest again based mainly on conspiracy and paranoia. including communism in hollywood, and i recognize the internment of japanese internment -- americans in world war ii. flash forward to december 12 2016, the final day of the house select committee on benghazi led by the south carolina representative trey gowdy. the end of a seemingly endless investigation undertaken by republicans, which began at least on the surface as

investigation into the 2012 terror attack in libya, they killed u.s. ambassador christy vance. but which motley turned to a political side shipment to inflict political damage on the dam secretary of state hillary clinton, as a reminder, you have to take my word for that,. >> everybody thought hillary clinton was unbeatable, right? but we put together a benghazi special committee, a select committee, what are her numbers today? her numbers are dropping. >> remember, this is why committees are important. we will have more by the way on that man, the current speaker kevin mccarthy any moment. it is important to note that in addition to extremist political investigations, congressional committees do important into story cork. to name just a few, the watergate committee. the multiple committees which investigated iran contra. the committee that investigated the teapot dome scandal which found corruption during president warren g. harding's cabinet. the teapot dome investigation also led to the revenue act of

1924, which granted congress the right to subpoena and obtain any americans tax records, and that is played a central role in the not successful congressional effort to obtain the tax records of americas twice impeached insurrectionist former president. speaking of, which there is also the house select committee on the january 6th attack, which ships -- disbanded only weeks ago. useful committees. but that era, at least to the time being, is gone, the new republican-led house is vowing investigations into the investigation of the insurrection. out our list cheney and adam kinzinger, former members of the january six subcommittee, and other important committees. republican lawmakers with whom you may disagree with on policy, but his character and belief in american democracy have never ever been in question. instead, important committees are now filled with extremist elections and hires. paddlers and conspiracy and paranoia, including the representative marjorie taylor greene in georgia who has promoted a wide array of bonkers, bonkers belief from qanon lies, to jewish space

laser sparking wild fires to the pizzagate conspiracy to the big lie that the 2020 election was stolen. green is also promoted several conspiracy theories relating to 9/11, which is not where they, because she now sits on the homeland security committee. re they, and many of the 21 republicans are held up kevin mccarthy's eventual election speaker, embarrassing him on the ground stage, have been rewarded with placement on important committees. in addition to our previous spot on the natural resources committee, colorado representative lauren boebert, another election denying a maga republican, who has promoted a wide variety of conspiracy lies, into his advocate for the removal of the separation of church and state in america, now sits on the oversight and accountability committee. the arizona representative, paul gosar, who was censured and removed from the oversight and natural resources committees two years ago after posing threats to democratic lawmakers on social media, is now back on both committees. the pennsylvania representative

scott perry, the far-right head of the freedom caucus, whose name you may recall as being subject of the january six investigation, is now also a member of oversight, and he keeps his seat on the foreign affairs committee. even george santos, the new york representative about whom nobody really knows anything real, given that he's lied about nearly everything from how his mother died to his work history to his wealth to his religion to his college athletic career. even his name, he knows it's i'm not one, but two committees. the small business committee, and the science, space, and technology committee. if you get committees and assignments don't matter, look no further than extremist mccarthy of the past to see how much damage can be done by an extremist mccarthy of the present. joining me now is the democratic representative adam smith of washington. he is the ranking member and former chair of the armed services committee, which is now led by the republican mike rogers, and still includes matt gates, who rogers had to be held back from the costing

during the mccarthy speaker election fiasco. representative smith, good morning to you, thank you for being with us. >> good morning, thank you for the chance. >> one of the reasons i really wanted to speak to you and people like you who have spent time on committees, is there was a time where committees were really really important, and there is work that they do less so in a particularly polarized congress, but there is important work that gets done. the average american doesn't really realize the relevance of all of these extremists being put on committees. but what does it mean? >> what we have two basic tasks here on committees. one is the pass legislation, which is long and difficult. we have hearings and work coming up with policy on any number of different things. and we passed the national defense authorizing act of the year, which sets defense policy for the country. but the second thing we do is oversight, and that oversight as you laid out, an excellent history there of what the committees have done, can be oversight over a wide range of things.

certainly at the start of it is the executive branch. my committee exercises oversight over the department of defense, and you will want to as the voice of the american people keep an eye on what the department of defense is suing, and bring to light problems and hopefully correct them. and that is an appropriate use of the committee. but the committees you are on give those members the ability to basically cross examine whatever witness the chairman wants to bring in on whatever topic they want to bring in. that is a really important role, and something that congress needs to do. when you put people like jim jordan and, yes kevin mccarthy, in charge of that process, what it becomes is simply a maga extremist agenda that lays out the conspiracy theories that you described. and i heard jamie raskin described best as the insurrection protection committee. that is the key point here. normally these committees are designed to investigate policy and make sure that the executive branch or in some cases the private sector companies, we've done

investigations of the tobacco companies back in the day, for instance, are doing their job right. what the republicans want to do is they want to protect their far-right extreme's ability to violate the law without consequences. that is what they want to do. >> how do you get work done? what do you do. now you are a ranking member on a committee, of which you wear the chair, work has to be done. important work, which should just not all be partisan, right? they're lots of bipartisan things that can get done and should get done. but what do you do now? because you are going to be, you and others in congress, are going to be on committees with people who have the aim to politicize a number of things. >> yeah, well my committees going to be an interesting case study actually, because we are the most bipartisan committee in congress. every year, for think it's now 63 straight years, we have passed a bipartisan bicameral national defense authorizing acts. it's always bipartisan. we have to work together. what that means is that as we

are determined hearings, as we are determining who's going to come and testify before us, what amendments are we going to offer, typically the chairman key member of our committee, we work together and we try not to greatest to asian where we cannot work together. but we cooperate. if they offer a witness and we are like, are you kidding me, we can't really do this, they will come back and say what about this one? even when we do our markup on the defense bill, we offer amendments, we try to make sure those amendments that ultimately create a problem where we can't get the votes to pass the bill. we have a spirit of cooperation on our committee that most other committees don't. will that stay? let me just say this. ironically, for all of the publicity that mike rogers has got in the last two or three weeks, he and i work really closely together. he is committed to that bipartisan thing. will he be able to still be committed with kevin mccarthy and the far-right staring over his shoulder, trying to tell him what to do? it's going to be an interesting

challenge. >> and that is particular application again to your committee in this particular instance, because while we don't really have evidence or knowledge of what kevin mccarthy trade-off for the votes of those 20 people didn't vote for them, and then the sixth, there was stuff floating around that one of their demands was a major cut the defense spending, which is unusual in this world to see that coming from republicans, but right now, a good proportion our defense spending is going to ukraine and a very important defense of democracy. you have this, this is gonna come back up to you in some fashion. >> that is at risk. no doubt about it. and you saw this play out on the floor. that's why tensions were so high. the majority of this republican conference does not agree with matt gates and lauren boebert and even marjorie taylor greene and some of the others who were with kevin mccarthy. and they are going to, they are going to be fights on a lot of wide range of policy issues. supporting ukraine, support the defense budget, and i think what we have seen is that the

matt gates's of the world in the far-right, as many people of, said it's not just that they're willing to take hostages, they're willing to shoot them. and so what is going to happen? if they try to shut down the entire government every time they don't get something they want? it's going to be an ongoing fight, and we democratic to make sure that we stand up for the principles of governance and passing legislation in the interest of the american people in the face of that. >> adam smith, good to talk to, you thank you for being with us this morning. >> that's representative adam smith of washington, and we will keep this conversation going at the top of next hour with the texas congresswoman sheila jackson lee, we will dive into her new legislation by the way to fight white supremacy and america, but she has some strong views on how these committees can work together with democrats and republicans on them, particularly in this incarnation. plus with the latest on the war in ukraine. a coalition of western nations have announced multiple major aid packages for ukraine. yuri sack, adviser to ukraine's defense minister, will join me live in the studio to discuss what they are set to receive,

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that is no secret. we are the terms national, that debt ceiling, and spending cuts what seems like 1 million times in the last week. but i admit, discussing the countries that can seem rather abstract for lot of us. let's talk about it for a couple of minutes, don't go away, don't go away. let's start with who owns america's debt and how we got to this point. first of all, we have to differentiate between a deficit and the debt. a deficit occurs when the amount of money spent exceeds the amount of money coming and during a specific time period. it's usually measured by a year. overtime, these annual deficits plus interest add up to the cumulative national debt, which has been going for decades. in the last 50 years, the

federal government has only avoided running a deficit five times. most recently in 2001. since then, the government has been racking up even more debt to the tax cuts by lawmakers, and deficit spending. america raise money through taxes and duties, but if and when that income doesn't cover what is owed, the government needs to borrow money. the u.s. government can only borrow a certain total amount before hitting a debt ceiling, that is the maximum out that the government can borrow to finance legislation the lawmakers in the president have already approved. right now, the u.s. owes just over 31.5 trillion dollars, but to whom? our friends on the far-right side of the aisle illegally tell you that it's and other foreign nations, and they're not entirely wrong. about 20% of america's debt is owned by foreign governments. treasury bonds are sold to other countries, but the full faith and credit of the united states that they will be paid back with interest. according to the treasury department, the top five countries that own piece of america's debt are japan, with about 1.8 trillion dollars,

china with about 870 billion, great britain with about 648 billion, belgium's out about 333 billion, and luxembourg, believe or not, rounds of the top five at 313 billion. generally, the rest of america's debt belongs to america. the government has barred allotted cash from its own public. 39% from the federal reserve, 22% from mutual funds, and so think about your 401(k) s. 11% from depository institutions, like banks, 9% from state and local governments, 8% for pension funds, and 9% from the social security trust fund. in two or some out of context. this 9% is two point 85 trillion dollars. the u.s. owes social security right here at home we more money than the 870 billion dollars that it is china. so when you hear somebody saying that this that is all china, no, it's actually mostly all america. nevertheless, the u.s. has over 31 trillion dollars that means to repay in a debt limit that has been reached as of this week.

no agreement was made in congress about whether to raise that debt ceiling, but the newly minted house speaker kevin mccarthy is set to meet with president biden in the coming days to try to hash it out. now if republicans decide not to raise the debt ceiling to help ease the short term issues, there could be a fiscal disaster on the horizon, which would have big consequences for all americans. the dominoes would fall like this. payments would be missed. americas credit rating would drop. interest rates would go up, and we already have inflation, but we could possibly see the onset the recession that we have been fearing. and if we end up with both inflation and recession, that is a very difficult position to get out of. as interest rates continue to go up, businesses and people will not spend as much money. we session is fought by encouraging people to spend by lowering interest rates. the rates can't go up and down simultaneously. the u.s. get stuck in this position, the years ahead will be hard. if interest rates are low and economic growth is low, the home and job markets become endangered, we just drop, and your 401k takes a hit. and that is the scoop.

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president volodymyr zelenskyy embarked on a historic trip to washington d.c. to plead for more military aid, it appears that western allies are going to grant his wish. this week, several nations pledged president amount new eight packages to be sent to war torn ukraine. here is a snapshot of what certain countries are providing. denmark is pledging howitzer artillery system and additional training for ukraine's military. estonian since to -- howitzer artillery systems -- and am to entertain grenade launchers. latvia is sending stinger air, in 17 helicopters, and machine guns with ammo, an unmanned aerial vehicles, drones basically. lithuania has pledge l 70 antiaircraft guns with ammo, in 18 helicopters in $48 million in cash. poland says it will send at 60

antique aircraft guns, more howitzers various types of ammunition. sweden has pledged in archer artillery system, cv 90 armored vehicles, and portable anti-tank missiles. the uk is sending challenger two tanks, princeton anti-tank munitions, they asked 90 self propelled guns and armored and protective vehicles. last but certainly not least, the night states is committing 59 bradley fighting vehicles, 90 strike or combat vehicles, 53 mine resistant ambush protects vehicles, the region 50 harm or -- humvee armored vehicles, and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition. i know that's a lot of information, the big picture, here is the point. ukraine is getting a lot of these assistance that it badly, needs but these aid packages fail to include the ones specific item that ukraine has been desperately seeking. sophisticated german made leopard two main battle tanks. if leopards was sent to ukraine, they would be a game-changer on the battlefield. representatives from 54 nations, part of the ukraine defense

contact group, gathered yesterday at the ramstein air base in germany to hammer out what other aid should be provided for ukraine. but at the end of five hours of talks, germany said it still remains undecided on whether to provide it's leopard to main battle tanks. germany's main concern is the risk that russia will view providing heavy tanks as an escalation in the conflict, putting germany in the kremlin's crosshairs. meanwhile, reuters is reporting today that ukraine has announced it will begin training its troop to use the leopard tanks in poland while it awaits a decision. during friday's meeting, zelenskyy, who spoke via live stream, expressed a dire need for more sophisticated weaponry. >> hundreds of times, and it will be absolutely just given that all that we have done. but, hundreds of tanks are not hundreds of tanks. all of us can use thousands of -- but i cannot put --

instead of guns that are needed against russia. artillery. >> joining me now is yuriy sak. easy adviser to ukraine's minister of defense. sir, welcome to the show, thank you for being. here >> thank you. >> i want to lay out, there are nine countries that came for the aid package this week, and it is been in recall -- in response to a call that says thank you for everything that we are giving to ukraine, but we can't do this in six-week chunks. we have to understand what we need to win this war. how can you tell me how the changes things, everything before this week. >> well first of, all we have to say that the package that was announced yesterday is indeed the largest that we have received so far. it includes armored vehicles, it includes as you have said in your early report, it includes helicopters, it includes more ammunition for the high marks systems, it includes more air defense systems. it includes more humvees. and so it is a lot of essential weapon systems and platforms

that ukraine needs in the stage of the war. now of course we, for us, between ourselves, we are calling this a tank ramstein, because we were really hopeful that the coalition for providing ukraine tanks. for, us tanks for ukraine are tanks for freedom, because this, as we keep repeating on a daily basis, this is not just a war for some territories in ukraine. this is not just a war about protecting ukrainian people. this is a common value. and this is why. there is a very deep understanding within our allies of this simple fact. and so of course we are hoping that we will get some tanks yesterday, and the united kingdom as you have also mentioned in your report will be providing ukraine with main battle chase challenger to. now of course for us, and our president mr. zelenskyy said it many times, that it seems to us

irrational why the western allies are still not providing ukraine with the main battle tanks, because just in europe, there are over 2000 -- tanks for example. and there are over 9000 of those abrams tanks in the u.s.. now we understand that, and we value, we are very grateful to the support that we receive, in particular from united states of america, and we are thankful as our president again said when he was delivering a speech to congress every american family, to every american taxpayer for their support. at the same time, i think we jointly need to redefine a concert of what does it mean to stand with ukraine, because every leader, when they speak about their committees and they say that we will stand for ukraine for as long as it takes, but look, when we say that we need those weapons for counteroffensives, this is still in our territory. we are not talking about attacking russia on their territory. we need to liberate our land, and for now, thanks to the

western weapons systems we've received so far, we were able to stabilize the front line, as well as drive the enemy out of certain locations. kharkiv, kherson, those were spectacular military operations. >> it would be president said when he was here in washington, we don't niger personnel, we don't need american troops on the ground, give us the weapons we will train on them and you have a good military. s the wegermany's concern is tht russia will see this as a nato war, and we told you this is a nato war, putin's been saying that from the beginning. he has said that nato is backing this war, and how do you address that german concern that they know that there are western weapons in ukraine. they know, it they have their intelligence. they have these reports. >> there's a very simple way to address this concern caused. putin is not planning to stop in ukraine. everybody knows that. and so it's either ukrainian tank pilots and take operators around the stakes in ukraine to

defeat the enemy, or the western allies will then have a choice to have to use them themselves. and so i think it's a very simple formula to understand. either you give us those tanks and we defend you as well from the aggressor, or there will be a day where you have to be using them yourself. and there are arguments, for example, about the length of the training program. and this is something that our minister of defense, mr. alexei -- highlight yesterday. there was indeed a breakthrough and even respect to -- tanks. not everything that is said is set during a press briefing afterwards. and so there are things that happened behind closed doors. and you have mentioned, in your report, that poland will start training ukrainian serviceman to use -- soon, and this is something that our minister of defense said as well. and so advance training is a very important stat. is a milestone, and we just

hope that our president zelenskyy yesterday said in his evening televised video address is that we will continue to push for tanks, because when we say that we will continue to push for tanks it is the same as when we said that we will continue to fight for our freedom. these are all part of the same puzzle. >> it is getting all of the stuff sooner make a difference? in other words, will this war some people see it as a war being quickly, versus the war taking years. but is there something different, if you can get the world -- either you need sooner, could that affect ukraine's ability to win this war? >> look, we have all seen that the arrival of modern western weapons systems on the battlefield is always a game-changer. you saw what happened with the first and m777 is that arrived in ukraine earlier. and then the high marks systems. now the patriot system. and so our ally sooner or later it will provide us with what we request but it is a bad being one step ahead and not being one step behind the enemy.

look, this is number eight, and we've already had 12 massive missile strikes. now that is an illustration as to how far behind we are. a few steps behind. we need to change our attitude to change our paradigm and start acting in advance. >> mr. salk, thank you for your time today, we appreciate you being here. yuriy sak is the adviser to the -- of ukraine. tomorrow is the anniversary of roe v. wade, if you think that the it -- was the endgame of the legislation movement, our postwar present and future coming up on velshi. p on velshi.

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know the show's been tracking the conservative-led effort to ban books across the country. most of the time we see the censorship campaigns playoff in classrooms and school libraries, but earlier this week republican state lawmakers and brought their target to include public libraries and the librarians around them. according to the text of two bills that were introduced in north dakota state house on tuesday, books that include quote sexually explicit material would be banned from public libraries. this includes work that mentioned sexuality or gender identity. and if a librarian refuses to remove them, they could be prosecuted and charged with a class be misdemeanor, which is a penalty that carries a 15 dollar fine, and a maximum punishment of 30 days in jail.

this north dakota legislation is not unique, in fact, it was one of several bills that have been proposed republican dominated legislatures in the past year which threaten to charge, fine, in jail librarians that stand against book banning. last, march idaho state republicans in the house overwhelmingly -- criminally charged librarians that expose minors to harmful materials, by allowing the checkup books with lgbtq themes. this book -- bill passed in the house but failed in the senate. in indiana, lawmakers provide bill that would charge teachers and librarians with a level six foamy on the same grounds. that is a charge that carries up to two and a half years in jail. so on that for a second. two and a half years in jail for a librarian. and in iowa, gop lawmakers let an effort to levy thousands of dollars in fines in 2 to 5 years in jail for librarians who provided access to books that are seen as obscene or harmful to the legislature. what is this, 1790? none of these bills made out their respective state legislatures, in the bill north

dakota has not been brought to a vote. those in favor of the north dakota bill argue that it will preserve children's innocence. and -- pornography another obscene material, but opponents of north dakota's millimeters like it are speaking out not just because of the threat to librarians, but because a vague and subjective definitions of what qualifies as obscene and harmful could sweep dozens of books off of library shelves for simply centering a queer theme or curtains of color, or potentially detrimental outcome for kids and young adults who open these books to see themselves reflected on their pages. the velshi banned book club will commence in just a bit. this week's author is gracelyn, whose children's book, a big moon cake for little star fell victim to the ambiguity of a book banning campaign indiana simply because it wasn't a list of books that will contain diverse characters. that is coming up in the next hour. hour medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare

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abortion opponents have descended upon, i'm sorry, opponents of abortion rights have descended upon washington, d.c., to take part in the march for life. it's an annual rally at the steps of the supreme court that advocated for roe v. wade to be overturned. yesterday, they took the streets of the nation's capital once again, the first time since achieving their once elusive goal. this year, organizers of the rally made one symbolic but significant change. they drew up a new route for the march to the participants would pass by and end up near the united states capitol. on march for life's website, organizers said the change was made quote, in order to mark not only our victory in dobbs, but our need to maintain a presence in washington, and quote. overturning roe v. wade was only the beginning. anti-abortion groups have made clear to republicans on capitol hill that they want and expect them to impose restrictions on reproductive health care for every single person in america. that's what makes this very important to those who live in

states where there are no abortion restrictions. the influential antiabortion groups, susan b anthony pro-life america, it is looking to the 2024 elections, demanding that candidates support federal restrictions on abortion in order to win its endorsement. marilyn musgraves, the group's vice president of governmental affairs, said, quote, they've got to make it clear it's not just strictly for the states to decide on this. we need leadership right now, clearly stating there is a federal rule or a national minimum standard, and quote. legislation to ban abortion on the national level seems like a conservative pipe dream right now, with democrats in control of the senate and the white house. but overturning roe v. wade once seemed impossible, to, until one day last year, when it became all too real. anti-abortion groups spent decades chipping away at roe v. wade, and they are going to keep at it. until republicans have complete control of washington again, that front lines of the abortion rights battle will stay focused on the state level. opponents of abortion rights have recently been touting

their success in reducing abortions in texas by 99%. that is an attention grabbing headline, but deeply misleading. texans haven't stopped seeking out abortion care. they've just stop seeking it out in texas! that is not a surprise, considering how the states draconian anti abortion laws have pushed texas one step closer to becoming a police state, where pregnant bodies and all women of reproductive age are looked with unwarranted suspicion. the states laws have also forced trained medical professionals to stop providing safe abortion care and to close down their clinics. instead, many texans are now making long and costly trips to other states to get an abortion. trust women, a clinic that offers abortion care in wichita, kansas, said this week that 70% of its patients are now coming from nearby texas. that's two states away, and it's not a short trip. first women's wichita clinic is about 20 miles from the nearest part of the texas border, a four hour drive one way. gwinnett closures will exacerbate the reproductive health care crisis as well,

since those very same clinics also offer reproductive health care services in areas that had very few resources. a study published last month by the commonwealth armed that the maternal mortality rate in antiabortion states was 62% higher compared to states that supports abortion rights in 2020. this was way before roe is overturned! further restrictions as a result of the overturning of roe will increasingly worse and health outcomes for pregnant people and their babies, in a country that already has the highest maternal mortality rate among developed nations. but the legal landscape in texas and other antiabortion states are set to get worse. so you wonder slicers can be this year and take up more and more draconian abortion restrictions. when we come back, we're going to discuss what is to come in the fight for abortion rights, with mary ziegler, one of his country's most prominent legal scholars on abortion rights. ortion rights. with leading ultra-capacity 5g coverage.

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which is now more important than ever. ♪♪ i think i changed my mind about these glasses. which is now more important than ever. yeah, it happens. that's why visionworks gives you 100 days to change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what? joining me now is mary ziegler, visionworks. see the difference.

a historian, law professor, and one of the most foremost legal scholars on abortion rights. she's also the author of the new book coming out next week called wrote, the history of a national obsession. it's about roe v. wade, and its legacy. mary, welcome back to the show. good to see you again this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> you have an article in the atlantic this morning titled, roe was never roe after all. americans rights don't come for the supreme court, even when the court intervenes, a, often

as in dobbs, response to political pressures and decades of fighting between grassroots groups and political parties. sometimes, our rights have nothing to do with the federal courts. they are also the results of state or federal legislations, state constitutional rulings, and ballot initiative decisions passed by ordinary voters. given all that context, how are things shaken up for you so far as you look at this last year? >> i think it's been a stressor for democracy. we see what polls have already suggested, which is that voters in most states, in, fact all the states who have had the opportunity to weigh in support some form of abortion rights. i've been heartened by the fact that so far, at least, democracy seems to be working in that way. i think often, you have to look at abortion rights votes to see if people are actually being allowed access to the vote, whether if that's because of gerrymandering restrictions on the vote. when voters have an opportunity to weigh in, we see and confirm what we already knew, which is some support for abortion rights. >> except the stuff i just talked about in the last block,

about these anti-abortion rights groups that are pushing for federal law, for more draconian state laws. the fact is, it continues to happen. for people who thought the worst that could happen was the end of dobbs, that's not true. >> absolutely, yeah. you don't even need new federal laws. one of the leading antiabortion strategies now is to point to the 19th century law called the -- which was originally designed to ban 30 books, among other things. they are saying that the cost -- is still law and bans all abortion pills everywhere, including blue states. so, we're going to see a push for federal legislation. we're going to see a push for new supreme court decisions limiting access to abortion, and we're going to see pushes based on lost that no one has thought about for decades, but are still on the books. abortion rights really aren't safe in any part of the country, much less, obviously, in the states where they are already banned. >> you've made an interesting link between another segment we do on the book club, because a couple seconds ago, i talked about the states that want to ban pornography and obscenity

in libraries, and it librarians, is facing the cops offed law. the buck -- coming across in various spheres. people in mostly the south of this country has faced the worst of the dust-ish, and say lynn legislators convene this year. it could get worst. it could see two extreme on the federal local letter not too extreme for states like texas, for example, which has been at the forefront of the most prohibitive abortion measures. one of the rights they are looking to take away is the right to travel to get an abortion. you are criminalized for getting an abortion in a place where it's legal, if you are from a place where it is illegal. what's the likelihood of that? >> we've seen some sign that states are a little more gun shy about that. there are still bills to our pre-filed that would allow one state, for example, to apply

its law to doctors and other folks helping people seek abortions in states where it's illegal, sort of sb8 style remedies where people can be sued by read the people, kind of bounty hunter seeking money. we've seen laws targeting corporations that reimburse their employees for travel out of state for an abortion. i think it's much more likely that we will probably see some momentum behind proposals like that, at least in texas and maybe elsewhere. so, i think there's been some hesitation from republican lawmakers more than before, because this would be so unpopular, but but right to travel is not safe and we're going to see pretty intense debates about that in the upcoming legislative sessions across large swaths of the country. >> one of the things, when i was in alabama, i was talking to folks about the threats from the attorney general to prosecute either providers or whomever is involved, as you just mentioned, anywhere in the abortion process. it's moving into first amendment territory, right?

the idea you can't even tell people the way in which they can get in the abortion or where they can go, you can, but you fear the fact that someone will prosecute you for that. >> absolutely. the line between protected freedom of speech and aiding and abetting in the first amendment law has always been a little bit murky, and that means a lot of people, including internet service providers, abortion -- regular people on social media providing information about how abortion medication works, could all be in the crosshairs of existing criminal laws, on aiding or abetting on conspiracy without state legislators having to introduce new restrictions are prohibitions. so, i think this is designed in part to have a pretty powerful chilling effect, even if people speech is protected, people are not going to want to take the risk of being prosecuted. that is one of the dangers. >> let's -- last week, the response to republicans passing a pair of anti-abortion bills in the house that have no chance of becoming law at the moment, you tweeted that the gop is quote, between a rock and a hard place.

this is not worked out to be the success they were hoping it to be. that failure of dobbs, from an elections perspective, and people are pushing them to take harder stance. >> they are really in a tough position, because you have primary voters and donors and these voters, essentially saying, we voted for you to ban abortion. what this is about for us is fetal rights. so, show me the money. what are you doing? and then you have, at the same, time a lot of independents and swing voters who quite clearly don't like what the gop has to say about abortion. so, you see the house gop saying abortion is our priority, and essentially passing bills that don't do anything, which, is i, think a cry for help. it's a signal that gop doesn't know how to balance these two competing demands. i think we'll continue to see that in 2024, where the stakes are really high. republican fta could take abortion pills off the market. a republican justice department could enforce the comstock act. i think there's a lot on the line. i think it's going to get increasingly difficult for

republicans to strike that balance. >> mary, thanks very much. could see you. mary sinclair is a historian at longer faster in the author of the upcoming, wrote, the history of a national obsession, which hits the shelves on tuesday. straight ahead, texas representative sheila jackson lee joins me to discuss the new congress, including the future of her new legislation to fight white supremacy, another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning, i'm ali velshi. it's sunday. i'm sorry, it saturday, tomorrow will be sunday. today is saturday, january 21st. two years and a day since president joe biden's integration. we begin with a dire warning for presidents'day, but we have to go back in history for this famous exchange. >> little did i dream you could be so reckless and so cruel. asked to do an injury to that land. let us not assassinate this land further. you've done enough.

have you no sense of decency,