unfortunately had died, they would have been with their family, their families will never whole and essentially they will be unable to do something as simple as enjoy having dinnertime with loved ones. >> yeah. monterey park mayor, henry lo, thank you for being with us at such a difficult time for you and monterey park. so many people this r thinking about you. >> thank you so much. >> continue to find the latest information, the updates from this story and so many others throughout rest of the evening. nicole picks it up with "deadline" right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it is a story that's become all too common in these united states. just an instant the scene of hope and joy and celebration

becomes one of fear and devastating violence and tragedy. the latest in the never-ending epidemic of gun violence in america, the 33rd mass shooting to happen so far this year, at least 11 people were killed at a lunar new year celebration at a billion room in monterey park, california. it is a predominantly asian american suburb of los angeles. the deceased are all in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. officials say that the shooter, 72-year-old asian male, attempted a second attack at another ballroom nearby. that attack was stopped by two patrons. here's how one of them describes what happened. >> i lunged at him with both my hands, grabbed the weapon, and we had a struggle. we struggled into the lobby, trying to get this gun away from each other. he was hitting me across the face, bashing the back of my head. i was trying to use my elbows to

separate the gun away from him, create some distance. finally, at one point, i was able to pull the gun away from him, shove him aside, create some distance, point the gun at him, intimidate him, shout at him and say, "get the hell out of here! i'll shoot! go away! go!" >> the suspect died after a self-inflicted gunshot wound. now there is a search for answers with the motive yet to be determined and police saying it may take days before there are any findings as well as recovery efforts in a community that plays an historic role in the asian american experience in this country. "the washington post" reports, "here between the snow-capped san gabriel mountains and downtown los angeles is a place that decades ago made history, becoming the nation's first asian majority city after years of determined emigration from taiwan, hong kong, and mainland

china. now its history includes a grimmer development, one that shares an increasing collection of american cities and suburbs, a shooting that killed ten people and wounded others as they marked the start of lunar new year inside a popular dance hall. in the cool light of day, this city of about 60,000 people has turned sharply from a venue for celebration to one of grief." frank pig luci is here, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, now an nbc national security analyst. and shannon watts, founder of the group moms demand for action, and elise hu, journalist and host for npr and "t.e.d. talk daily"'s host. she had been planning to attend celebrations in monterey park over the weekend. i want to start with you, elise.

i was rif pted by your tweets. you were going to bring, it sounds like, young kids to the celebration. this happens so often in america that we have a tape, right, how many people are dead, did they find the shooter, what was the motive, what do i tell my kids. that's at least how it plays in our house. tell me about this morning for you. >> of course. this was tremendously heavy. it was so much heavier and more difficult because it was lunar new year morning when i woke up and learned about the massacre, and it just broke my heart even hearing you intro the story. the word massacre being associated with monterey park, which is just traditionally such a heart of the chinese, cantonese, taiwanese, american diaspora, not only in southern california but all over the country the diaspora known as monterey park. but, yeah, in the morning i woke up early because i needed to get the girls -- i have two girls that were performing, ages 5 and 7, and i needed to get them in their traditional red satin dresses to go and perform, and

we were to drive the half an hour or 45 minutes it takes to get from where i live near the beach to monterey park. as i was getting them ready was when i saw the news there had been a shooting and immediately knew that of course it was going to be canceled, but then it was a scramble, right, having to explain it to the children. >> we don't know the motive yet. as the facts emerge, it's becoming clear that two things are now true in america, any town can be the target of a celebration turning into an unimaginable tragedy, and any town can produce a hero, that remains a hero until the end of time. it makes me cry every time i watch that video of what seems like an ordinary person who maybe spared, you know, ten more spouses or parents or grandparents or loved ones from being massacred at a ballroom

nearby. and i wonder, shannon watts, what your thoughts are about both the extraordinary -- it becoming routine elements of mass shootings in america, a town otherwise, just like all of the towns in which we live, and a hero who, you know, moments before their heroic actions was doing something totally unrelated to thwarting a mass shooting. >> you know, i don't believe we're numb. i'm the mom of five children. i will never accept an america in which my children, myself, we're not safe to go anywhere without the fear of being gunned down by someone who has access to a high-powered weapon. we talk a lot about freedom in america. we're very proud of being free. this isn't freedom. we are beholden to gunmakers. they are holding us hostage. they are making these high-powered weapons and selling them to civilians. we are the only high-income

country where this is happening, and it's why we have a 25 times higher gun homicide rate than any other nation. this is not how we should be living. we don't have to die like this. we should not have to live like this. that's why i started moms demand action, getting off the sideline and using voices and votes to change policy, statehouse, all the way up to congress, and we are doing that. but unfortunately, we are all only as safe as the closest state with the weakest gun laws. i live in california. i'm in arizona today with hundreds of moms demand action volunteers demanding that lawmakers pass stronger gun laws because those are the guns that go into california. so it's all intertwined. i would don't this every day as a full-time volunteer for decade if we weren't winning, but at the same time, we need every single american to use their voice and vote on this issue. we really have come to this crisis situation where it requires everyone to demand

their lawmakers act. >> yeah. i mean, frank, to shannon's point and elise's, i mean, we choose to live like this. it doesn't have to be this way. at least one of the guns -- i want to play this sound to i get this right, but it is believed by the l.a. county sheriff that one of the guns was probably not legally possessed by the shooter. let me play that sound for you. >> the weapon that we recovered at that second scene i'm describing as a magazine-fed semiautomatic assault pistol. not an assault rifle but an assault pistol that had an extended large-capacity magazine attached to it. i believe the weapon that was recovered at the alhambra location is not legal to have here in the state of california. >> so, frank, the scenario

shannon describes precisely, and so, while the solution seems to be slowly and incrementally working in place where is elections succeed in putting in place politicians who do smart things to make us safer, until we're all safe, no one is safe. this was a gun probably purchased somewhere else, as the sheriff said there, not legal to have in california. >> shannon's right on the money with regard to this weakest link observation. replete on social media right now are people saying look at that, california has some of the most strictest gun laws in the nation, and eve that i know couldn't escape a mass shooting. well, yeah, that's right, because you know why? because you're only as good as shannon says, as the next nearest state with the weakest gun laws. we need a national, federal solution here, and it doesn't have to be just banning all

guns. but we've got to act regionally and nationally. it's extremely clear. and you're right, nicole, it is a deliberate choice that we're making every time we elect an official who chooses to look the other way and succumb to the pow over the nra and the gun rights lobbyists. look, if you've got an elected official, if you're in arizona and you think your to governor has done a great thing by banning the word latinx from the vocabulary, because that's the most important thing she could do this month, if that's what you want your officials to do, great, have at it. if you're in florida and you think governor desantis has done such an amazing thing by banning the teaching of advancement black history in high schools, if that's the best thing he can do to to protect your kids, have at it, keep electing these

people. if you want to ask them the hard questions, what are you doing to protect us from the carnage that happens to the tune of 36 times this month so far, then you're going to be electing other pool. that's the choice we're making here. >> shannon, how are we doing on that? it's january 23rd. we're at 36 mass shoot sogs far -- shootings so far this year. i think after newtown and uvalde, we now can say in all honesty there are no safe places for kids in these united states of america. those are the priorities. frank sounds like he's been moonlighting in politics. that is precisely the political priorities made by the governors of florida and arkansas. that is their top-tier issue, the things they wanted to project to the country and the world. where are we in turning this into the biggest driver of voters? >> there's a reason we did so

well in the midterm elections and elected gun-sense majorities in places like minnesota. we now have trifectas in maryland and massachusetts. we can go into michigan this year and pass stronger gun laws as well. and so we're making incredible progress. there are some red states like you mentioned where gun extremists, which is a small minority in this country -- most gun owners and republicans actually support things like a background check on every gun sale -- but there are gun extremists in the legislatures in red states, and they are doing the gun lobby's bidding. they're passing things like permanent list carry, which allow people to bring a handgun in public with no background check and no training. data shows, this is intuitive, that that increases gun crime and death. in the blue states where we've made progress and pass stronger gun laws, we've seen less gun death and less gun violence. again, this doesn't take a rocket scientist. the data bears out what is

intuitive, but because we don't have, you know, borders at our states, guns pass through just like cars do. and we do need, as frank said, federal legislation. we passed the first federal gun law this past summer and the first in 26 years. and that will save thousands of lives. but it's just a small step on what is a much longer journey. we need every lawmaker to act on this. the writing is on the wall. republicans are going to eventually have to come to the table on this issue. their constituents, regardless of political party, want them to pass stronger gun laws. it will save lives. >> yeah. i mean, the 85% issue. elise, back to monterey park. i want to show you what congressman adam schiff said, who has had the honor of representing monterey park for years. let me show you those comments. >> i had the honor of

representing monterey park for over a decade, and it's just devastating. i know what a tight-knit community it is, and to see a time of celebration within the asian community turned into a time of memorial is just heartbreaking. but i have the same mixture of emotion i think so many americans do seeing this news of being sickened on the one hand and just furious on the other, because it happens over and over and over again, and we just can't seem to get enough done to stop it. and the reality is there are things we can do to top it. we don't have to live the way. the rest of the world doesn't live this way. i've been carrying a bill for years now to try to expose the gun industry the same liability as every other industry in america. they shouldn't be immune from the harm the industry causes. and we shouldn't have weapons of war on our streets or extended ammunition clips as may have been used here. we can do something about this,

and i think it's the gutlessness of some of the people i serve with that we haven't. >> so, elise, there's adam schiff bringing it back to monterey park. what did you think of those comments? >> i lived abroad for nearly four years and was among many other expats as an international correspondent. and i remember that a lot of the conversations were around how the united states is the only place, only country in the world where this kind of thing regularly happens. to hear you all talk about 36 mass shootings already in this new year is just astounding. as asian americans and all american, we have a right to feel safe and secure and not precarious in our communities and especially we have had children and we want them to grow up safe and feeling secure as well. i hated having to explain to my children that something -- a celebration in which they were going to get to learn tradition

and celebrate and carry on tradition was canceled because of violence and because the cops had shut it down and a gunman was still at large at the time. and so, this is about the asian american community because of this particular event, but it is really about all of us. >> yeah. and about -- it's on the side of how we choose to live. i want to highlight this other remarkable -- because this does happen with enough frequency for there to be people with the presence of mind to stop further damage. we have another such person to sort of lift up. his name is brandon shea. my league lester holt interviewed him a bit ago. let me show you this brand-new interview. >> did he say anything to you? >> no. that was the scary part. when he came in, he said nothing. his face was very stoic. the expressions were mostly in his eyes, looking around, trying to find people, trying to scout the area for other people.

>> so, how did you decide what to do? >> well, there was a moment i actually froze up because i was -- i had the belief that i was going to die, like, my life was ending here, at that very moment. but something -- something amazing happened, a miracle actually. he started to try to prep his weapon so he could shoot everybody, but then it dawned on me that this was the moment to disarm him. i could do something here that could protect everybody and potentially save myself. >> so, elise, this is monterey park two, and this always be part of this new tragic history for monterey park that brandon tsay had a moment when the shooter was preparing his weapon, had the presence of mind and the willingness to die to save members of that community. talk about that. >> yeah. unspeakable violence and heroism

and community can all come together and they can all exist at the same time. we see that in moments like that and in times like yesterday. you know, i still wanted to mark the holiday and have community with other asian americans even though the event was canceled yesterday. so i was still able to get together with other moms whose kids weren't able to perform, and we actually were able to kind of snatch some hope and meaning out of the, you know, grips of despair, really, and it was really lovely that community can still come together. i've heard lots of messages about how there are many other lunar new year celebrations coming up in the next weekend and we hope to mark the holiday in the week ahead. >> you know, i don't want to ignore the elephant in the room. i think, frank, there was a moment where you had questions because of the unprecedented uptick in hate crimes for asian americans and theweaponization

of the covid pandemic and the rhetoric of some on the right where there was an open question. it looks like the motive here is domestic. we don't know for sure yet. those answers are not available to anybody yet. but i think the trepidation of communities that have been targeted at a clipped pace, a much greater incidence, is in the study of terrorism, once people are terrified in some ways the bad guys are already making gains. what are your thoughts about sort of the fear climate, that when this happens, one of the first questions we go to is motive? >> i have to concede it was the first thing that ran through my mind as well, that are we looking at another horrible hate crime. it's horrible enough. any massacre like this. i'll also point out, of course, that we still haven't figured out the real motivations here. it's early. >> right. >> we also have to avoid the trap of kind of lumping all

asians in with each other. so it's still quite possible that even if it was a beef, a personal beef, a domestic beef, it's still potentially possible that, within the asian community, there are these subcultures, you know, taiwan versus mainland china versus vietnamese, that we all seem not to think about but that could all lead to a hate crime charge here. so we don't know. but, yes, it speaks volumes about where we are in society that now we seem to think, yeah, this has got to be some more hate and violence, because we live in this environment that even the fbi director, as he testified on capitol hill, had said the number-one most lethal subcategory of domestic terror violence is hate-based violence. that's the reality, what the statistics tell us, and that's what we should be prepared for in terms of securing our events, more security, more thinking about what we would do in those situations. you mentioned heroes. yes, there are heroes amongst

us. we're all capable of heroism, sometimes not even knowing what's going to happen until we're ultimately faced with it. but you know what, there's another way to be a hero here, which is to learn the warning signs and indicators that tell you that someone around you is on the path to violence, someone is carrying that baggage that those grievances are starting to leak out as profilers will say, they obsess on their grievance, can't let it go. that's when you need to intervene and be the hero and report that person because your gut is probably right. >> shannon, i want to give you the last word. i always think of everything i've learned from talking to you and talking to fred, and i want to ask you what a community dealing with this tragedy needs long after this is the top story on any newscast, the wounds and the tragedy and the grief enduring for years and years and decades and a lifetime. what do these community members need right now?

>> i mean, there's just so much. i'm going back to the interview you just played, nicole, where we are asking everyday civilians to stand up to gunmen because our lawmakers are too cowardly to stand up to gunmakers. and that is trauma that will last a lifetime. and 20 people were shot yesterday in monterey park, but in america, over 300 were shot and killed or wounded. >> yeah. >> that is a crisis in this country. gun violence is the number one cause of death among children in america. we should be ashamed, but more than that, we should be motivated to act, to wrap our arms around these communities that have suffered, but every community is not immune now to gun violence, right. if it hasn't happened to you where you live, i am sad to tell you that it is coming, because this is america and gun violence is out of control. we all have to demand our lawmakers act at every single level of government from school to city council to state to

congress. become an activist. get involved in this issue, and make it a number-one voting priority, because our lives are on the line. >> shannon watts and elise, thank you for starting off on this sad story. we're grateful to you. much of our interview with the 26-year-old hero brandon tsay with lester holt. when we come back, the twin indictments some are calling a back eye for the fbi is reigniting questions about putin's russian oligarchs and their ties to the united states. plus, some significant guilty verdicts today surrounding january 6th, more members of that far-right militia group, the oath keepers, found guilty of seditious conspiracy for their roles in the deadly insurrection. and a guilty verdict in the case of this guy, he barged into speaker pelosi's office on january 6th and put his feet on her desk. he's saying it wasn't a crime, it was something else. we'll see what the jury thought about that defense. and later in the program,

unbelievable new reporting involving seized phones, burn bags, and just all-out distrust at the united states supreme court following its internal investigation into how the redecision to overturn abortion was leaked to the public. all those stories and more.

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(vo) red lobster's finer points of fun dining: at lobsterfest, whether you're a sea-foodie or a lobster newbie, there's something for everyone. try one of six dishes, like new lobster and shrimp tacos for $17.99. and leave completely lobsessed. welcome to fun dining. one of the weirder legacies of the trump era is we are all now fully up to speed on what exactly a russian oligarch is and what they look like. the disgraced, twice-impeached ex-president's ties to russia, putin, his oligarch pals were never subtle.

paul manafort was convicted on multiple federal criminal charges as part of robert mueller's russia investigation and was later granted an 11th-hour pardon by trump. one of the threads robert mueller and his prosecutors were pulling on was manafort's ties to russian oligarch and putins be ti deripaska. he gave money to manafort. as russian oligarchs go, he's on the mt. rushmore of oligarchs. in 2018 he was sanctioned by the u.s. government for money laundering, threatening the lives of business rival, and taking part in extortion and racketeering. as well as ordering the murder of a business man and having links to russian organized crime. great guy. the fbi conducted raids in his

homes in washington, d.c., and new york, raids that were part of an fbi investigation into whether deripaska had violated those sanctions. last fall we learned that deripaska was invited, charged with conspireing to violate those sanctions. we all know the old saying, follow the money. that is particularly true when you're dealing with megawealthy russian oligarchs close to putin, except now that money trail has led to a stunning new place. charles mcgonigal, who had been before he retired in the year 2018, remember that year, the special agent in charge of the fbi's counterintelligence division in new york, who had supervised and participated in investigations of russian oligarchs including mr. deripaska. mcgonigal has been, quote, indicted on charges that he conspired to violate u.s. sanctions on russia by taking secret payments from deripaska in return for investigating a rival oligarch. in plain english, one of the highest ranking fbi officials

who sat at the crossroads of some of the most sensitive counterintelligence investigations into russia and russian-related investigations now stands accused of getting paid by a russian oligarch he was supposed to be investigating. we should note mcgonigal is facing additional charges out of d.c. from "the washington post," "the twin indictments are a back eye for the fbi, alleging one of their most senior and trusted intelligence officials was taking secret cash payments and undermining the bureau's overall intelligence-gathering mission." jim jordan's committee and new agenda for congress. joining us, tom winter, former senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill, and a senior national security official at the department of justice. frank figliuzzi is back with us as well. take us through the reporting.

>> right. so charles mcgonigal has been under investigation for several years now. there were some of us that anticipated this indictment coming sooner, and -- >> how long have you known about it? what does that mean? >> that he was under investigation, was reported by business insider i want to say six to seven months ak, and there was some stuff swirling around then that he was under investigation. i think there was some initial thought that the investigation into deripaska's activities in the u.s. led to a broader investigation, which is tied to those payments that you referenced before to a former albanian intelligence official and foreign official in that perhaps the charges would not involve deripaska. obviously, that's very different today. >> right. >> and the reporting is essentially it is legal -- folks in d.c. have a problem with this, but it is legal if you were an attorney to get paid by one of these oligarchs to represent them. you could be paid as an investigator for one of those

law firms. that was a narrow carveout with the sanctions. but you cannot be paid apart from a law firm to do any sort of activity for one those olt gashgs because you're violating sanctions. that trips the wire for mcgonigal. if that was that simple, you might kind of box it off as an incredible error of judgment. what raises some serious questions here is that back in 2018, the nypd -- the nypd sergeant kind of raised his arm and said i think we might have a problem here because a woman who mcgonigal put up for an internship at the nypd said, look, i'm very close to an fbi agent and sometimes i read confidential files or have access to them, that alerts the nypd sergeant. what makes it worse is that according to the charges today she's the daughter of somebody who's a suspected russian intelligence officer, who apparently mcgonigal was trying to recruit, but getting her inside the nypd to be breeched on counterintelligence matters, foreign liaison matters. it shows there are issues of

judgment here. taking a big-picture look back at the totality of all this, this is somebody whose job was to investigate oleg deripaska. he's a potential foreign agent. he's somebody who's been on the fbi's radar for, at that time, 2018, 2019, certainly now today, well over a decade. he's been denied, as we've reported previously, for visa a number of times. he is somebody the u.s. has significant ties to russian oligarch organized crime. you read what treasury said about him. that's the bare-bones background of him from the metal, aluminum wars back in the day when he tried to get control of russian state-owned businesses. it's not just russia. he oversaw towards the end of his tenure a very sensitive investigation involving alleged cia turn coat, somebody who since pleaded guilty, jerry lee, somebody who nbc news has previously identified as an individual who's between some of the secrets that he's believed to have given up to the chinese

government, through some of his actions and some cia missteps, and when it came to classified information, is somebody that probably led to the death of 10 to 12 people in china who were spying on behalf of the united states. that's our previous reporting. so these are the most sensitive investigations that the fbi has. in an fbi field office that investigates counterintelligence more than ever, and i can guarantee you they're on the streets going head to head with chinese and russian officials literally as we sit here and speak. >> i'm speechless. let me show you some basic questions. what did deripaska pay paul manafort money to do? >> well, you know, look, in terms of that connection, you know, paying money to

ultimately, you know, gain access or influence, but i just want to take a step back here as well, which is, you know, a lot of the story's lead-in understandably is connected to deripaska in russia. but i think tom's point, the broader point, is important here, which is you'll have as agents, as prosecutors, exceptional responsibility and power and control at the fbi and department of justice, and the allegations here are someone who appears to have not only abused that authority of power but some of the allegations are that there is even a criminal investigation that was opened that's connected with some of the payments at issue. and so, the russian connection is important, but it's also important to take a step back and the broader allegations are incredibly troubling. >> let's do both. start where you want to start, brandon. >> okay. >> take me through. the investigation was involving deripaska, am i reading that correctly?

>> that's right. there were two pieces here it's important to understand. one is the one in new york that's connected to deripaska, and the sanctions imposed on him in 2018. u.s. persons can provide services to individuals who are sanctioned, they can't receive goods, and that's the allegations there. there's a separate indictment in d.c. that alleges that he provided misstatements on a number of documents that are required in terms of travel and finance with respect to an individual who had worked for the albanian intelligence service. and he did that while he was working at -- still at the fbi. and that's the one where there's an allegation that he, in fact, opened or led to the opening of a criminal investigation based on collecting over -- 200,000 that was paid to him. >> this opening of an investigation into a rival oligarch, which part is most

concerning from a national securityive? he was getting paid by deripaska or the fbi was turning into police for russian oligarchs, inc. >> you're confirming i did a poor job of explaining it because the investigation was there was an allegation made by the department of justice that respect to an individual connected to albania, no connection to russian service or deripaska, opened a criminal investigation in new york connected to an individual connected to albania. for deripaska it was a investigation conducted on a different oligarch. it's confusing. there are multiple charges. but i think this underscores a broader point and one of the points tom made, which is it is very rare that the department of justice issues two indictments in two different districts on the same day against the same

individual. paul manafort was charged in two different districts, and i think it shows how serious the fbi is taking this. they're throwing the book at this individual. any single charge they were able to identify, regardless of venue, they're bringing on this individual. >> frank, help me understand why that would be an imperative. i mean, the national security functions of the department of justice are the most opaque, mostly because, as we all became students of doj and counterintelligence investigations over the trump years, they do not often result in charges. statement they do, but they are mostly undertake on the protect the national security interest of the united states. what does it say, as brandon underscored, these two indictments were issued by two different offices on the same day? >> one of the things i'm hearing is that a lot of this had to do with compartmenting the

investigation and the prosecution. let's not forget here, charles mcgonigal is a well-known high-profile counterintelligence official in the fbi and throughout the intelligence community. our paths crossed at fbi headquarters when i was assistant director. i even debated whether i should come on today because i'm extremely distraught and even angry that what charley is alleged to have done, to add to the compartmentalizing factor, the los angeles field office, as far away as you can get from new york and washington, was assigned to actually do the investigative work again to try to distance this and compartment it so that nobody connected to charles could get back to him. but, you know, even as we walk through this, as tom refers to, as early as several months ago, if not longer, there was some early reporting that charley, who had retired, had been doing

some consulting that had gotten him sideways with some administrative regulations. when i first thought that, i thought, okay, he hasn't filled out a foreign agent's registration form or something like that. this can't possibly be much worse than that. and of course it is much, much worse because it extend back to his time as an active duty fbi executive in the largest fbi office in the nation. and so for me, putting my emotions and personal connection aside, the takeaway here is the absolute reach of the russian government and adversarial intelligence services into our nation and our intelligence community. you're matching it correctly to manafort, but you can't distance this. let's remember, the special counsel indicted two dozen russians for messing with our -- our presidential campaign. we've got russians indicted here and there and sanctions and

ukraine. so, if there's people out there embracing putin every day on certain platforms and saying, you know, russia isn't that bad, they're our friend, this case is, again, a stark reminder that they get up every day trying to hurt us, trying to penetrate our intelligence community, and sometimes they get it right, and they succeed. and it appears, allegedly, that they may have done it here with charles mcgonigal. >> so, frank, i'm just a cable host reading the news, trying to understand why the new york fbi field office senior counterintelligence agent is wrapped up with, oh, not just any country, russia. not just any russian oligarch. deripaska. forgive me my sprawling list of questions, but is that a coincidence? >> no, it's not a coincidence. even when we hear about albanian intelligence officer involved here, let's not, you know,

forget the relationship historically between the russian service and the albanians. so, we need to dig into this and find out, you know, what more is going on here. many of us, nicole, this morning, were on the phone with each other that know charley and we're, like -- i won't repeat some of the expletives many of us have uttered this morning, but the question remains why, and no, it's not a coincidence, although that was his expertise. we're all wondering how far did this go back? he was a senior official in washington. the russians spot and assess and the chinese spot and assess, but that wasn't his specialty. it was russia. did they identify him early on in his career? how much did he touch in his career that has to be looked at? what wasn't done in the new york field office? because he mixed it and said no or, what was open and worked even when agents might have been scratching their heads saying i don't understand why we're

working this. so, lots of work to be done here. as you correctly said, doj and the intel community doesn't always charge these case, and they decided to do it here, decided to do it because of the gravity of the case and the evidence. >> we have a million more questions we need to get claire mccaskill in on the questioning as well. we'll sneak in a quick break. no one is going anywhere. stay with us. us

we're back with tom winter,

claire mccaskill, brandon van gak and frank figliuzzi. is this a story about a dirty former fbi agent? is this a story about the corruption of private investigations? is this a story about russia? >> i think it's definitely the story o number one and perhaps number three. specifically, i think it's yet to be determined, though -- i'm of two minds of this, one, something frank alluded to earlier. this was a compartmentalized investigation in l.a. he knew so many people between the d.c. field offices and some of the fbi's capabilities and the d.c. area from a technical standpoint as well as his -- >> what does that mean? like they were operating like internal affair? >> he was a section cheech focusing on cyber and intelligence issues. when those two are intertwined, you can imagine. he knows a lot of people between d.c. and new york, so they moved this investigation to los angeles is our understanding and reporting. in a way that makes sure when

they were conducting this that they weren't going to be having people that were friendly with charley, knew about him, making sure there was nothing they missed as far as is there anybody else at the fbi they should be concerned with. time will tell whether or not this is the last indictment. it's possible it could have concluded and that's the reason they've charged today, but i think time will tell whether or not there were other issues. somebody who's in charge, a special agent in charge of counterintelligence for the new york field office knows the background on prior cases, the types of cases, anna chapman, why are are some russians here, that doesn't make sense, what are they up to, why do they want to talk to nicolle or tom winter or some defense expert? why do they want claire mccaskill's insights on the united states? those types of individuals. the technical capabilities of the nib in new york to intercept those communications. when they picked up chapman,

they detected instantaneous microwave communications and bursts of data between her and another individual passing that information, fbi surveillance picked that up. that involves highly technical information. the fbi in return to has tried to pick off the fbi's radio signals just even detect the fbi's presence in maria celeste arraras ya. there's been reporting they've had success with that over the years. this type of back and forth, who is part of the -- who are the russian diplomats operating in new york? who are they friends with? who are these other individuals and carveouts and cutouts? >> and they asked mcgonigal these questions. >> every one of them. >> do we know if he did or didn't tell deripaska that information? >> there are no allegations today that's the case. and the fact this has been kind of wrapped up indicates maybe they know the answer, but i don't have av any reporting that makes me comfortable that says this is definitely over today and we know the full extent of this. >> claire, what questions do you have? >> well, first of all, this is a

terrible, terrible blow to the rule of law in the united states of america. first, we have the secret service that has gotten sullied over the last several years. we've learned that there were members that became very political. now we have the fbi, somebody at the pinnacle of power. and let's not kid ourselves here, nicolle. it is absolute power. this man had the kind of power that we watch in movies and can't really believe that anybody could have that kind of power. and the idea that he would want to cash in with rush, and that's what this is, this is cashing in. so my question to frank is, i guess there's a little bit of a silver lining here that the fbi has brought him to the courts of justice and he will have to thef justice and he will have his day in court. let's hope they throw the book at him. and if he's guilty he goes to prison for a long, long time. and i hope he doesn't go someplace comfortable p. but if this is happening shouldn't there be the same kind

of requirements -- i said this all along about the military. we have all kinds of rules about what former members of congress can do. frankly, they're not strong enough about cashing in. and if you look at the scandals we've seen in washington, a lot of it's about cashing in. this guy cashed in his expertise. shouldn't there be a rule that you can't go to work for a law firm and do investigation for a russian oligarch after you've been head of counterintelligence in the new york office? of course there should be. any strong bright lines about what you're allowed to do after you retire from the fbi. >> go ahead, frank. >> yeah, claire, so if there's any good news here, it's always good news/bad news. yes, those laws exist. i actually adhered to those laws. as a senior executive you are governed by ethics laws and you have to report to the ethics officer what -- i even had to report, and i did, job interviews. you know, as i approached retirement i had to go report my job interviews with the ethics

officer. hey -- and he asked are you supervising any investigation involving these corporations that you're interviewing with. right? all of that gets disclosed. at all times. and thick financial disclosures are filled out every year, which we all curse out, which by the way are a result of robert hansen spying for the russians while he was in the fbi. so it's clear here that that was circumvented. and if you look at the dates of this activity for charlie, it happened right on the cusp of his retirement. so he was apparently, allegedly about to cash out as he was looking for retirement and no, he sure as heck didn't comply with any regulations. >> i'm going to give brandon the last words on this story on the national security implications of the revelations that we know about so far from the twin indictments. we have to sneak in a quick break before we do that. don't go anywhere. re we do that. don't go anywhere.

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serious and very few people would appreciate that more than mcgonigal. accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars while you are at the fbi from a person connected to a foreign government is incredibly serious. this individual would know that. lying on forms connected to that is incredibly serious. opening an investigation connected to that is incredibly serious. so those issues alone are troubling and it's the reason why, again, i think you're seeing the department of justice take the right action to, you know, bring these dual indictments at the same time in two different districts. >> brandon van grack, thank you for epg us understand this. claire, stick around for a while. a quick break and then how this supreme court investigation into the leak of the decision overturning roe vs. wade is highlighting some major double standards. another big hour of news is coming up. don't go anywhere. coming up. don't go anywhere. there's something for everyone. try one of six dishes, like new lobster and shrimp tacos for $17.99.

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why is it that people respect the court? why is it that people comply with its judgments? it's not because they agree with everything the court does. i mean, presumably it's because they have some understanding that even if they don't agree that the court is doing its job, that the court is performing this critical function in a rule of law society and a constitutional democracy. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. integrity is key to the health of the u.s. supreme court. and the court works best when the american people believe in it and believe that it puts the law and equality above everything else.

which is why the newly completed internal investigation of the leaked draft opinion that would go on to overturn roe vs. wade, the investigation that turned up with absolutely nothing is only further rocking an institution already suffering from an historic low approval rating among the general public. last week we learned that after months of interviews and forensic analysis the court's marshal was unable to find the leaker or any clues about who he or she is or anything. now extraordinary new reporting in the "new york times" looks deeper into that effort. "the investigation was an attempt by chief justice john roberts to right the institution and its image after a grievous breach and slide in public trust. instead, it may have lowered confidence inside the court and out." the "times" continues, "in interviews some employees said the leak and investigation further tainted the atmosphere inside a court that had already grown tense with disagreement. the leak spurred finger

pointing, they said, with many conservatives convinced that a liberal had engineered the breach and vice versa. just as the justices have grown more divided, so has their staff, eroding trust. voices are more hushed now, the employees said, and doors that used to be open are closed." the most glaring take away from the court marshal's investigation was who was not put through the rigorous interview process. you guessed it. the nine justices themselves. "a day later the court was forced to issue a second statement saying that the marshal had in fact conferred with the justices but on he very different terms from others of the institution. lower-level employees had been formally interrogated, recorded, pressed to sign affidavits denying any involvement and warned that they could lose their jobs if they failed to answer questions fully. that's according to interviews and the report. in contrast, conversations with the justices have been a two-way, quote, iterative

process in which they, the justices asked as well as answered the questions. the marshal gail a. kerley wrote she had seen no sign for them to sign an affidavit she said, leaving the court in an even worse place after the investigation. failing to scrutinize the justices "just completely undermines the court's credibility said mark zaid, a lawyer who frequently hires government investigations. he says it sends a message of seniority that doesn't exist under the eyes of the law. the crisis of credibility of the u.s. supreme court is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. supreme court watcher dahlia lithwick is here. she's a legal correspondent and senior editor for slate. she is the host of the amicus podcast. as well as an msnbc law and politics analyst. she's also the author of the book "lady justice: women, the law and the battle to save america." brian fallon is also here, executive direction, of the progressive judicial advocacy

group demand justice. frank figliuzzi is back with us, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. and claire mccaskill's still here at the table. claire, jody cantor's reporting in the "new york times" is excellent but unsurprising. given how insular the chief justice seems to be to the crisis of confidence the public has in the court. i think we pulled some numbers, new numbers from this gallup poll we have cited. they've been asking questions about the court since 1970. i think we're down to -- here it is. gallup found only 7% of americans have a great deal of confidence in the judicial branch of the supreme court. the highest disapproval rating for the court since gallup began tracking. >> somebody over there doesn't get it. what america is asking for right

now. accountability. these justices don't have the same rules when it comes to ethics and where they can go and trips they can take. we've got one of the justices that has a spouse that's a full-throated political player and some of the most divisive rhetoric our country's ever seen in politics. ginni thomas is a big problem for the supreme court. and they just are ignoring it. they're acting like this is no big deal. nobody had anything to gain -- the liberal minority on that court had nothing to gain by leaking that opinion. this was an attempt to lock in those votes for alito's amazing opinion upsetting 50 years of precedent and taking women back to a place they didn't think they'd ever go in america. so they're the ones that had a motive to leak it, to lock them in so they couldn't go anywhere. because you know, my sources

tell me that roberts was trying to get folks to just find the mississippi law unconstitutional and not overturn all of roe v. wade. but clearly they did. and i think the fact that they did not subject themselves to the same things they made their staff go through tells you all you need to know about what's going on over there. >> let me just press you. that's so interesting. and i agree. i mean, brandon and i are the only former sort of political operatives here. but if you reverse engineer this, the other pattern of a leak that i believe the same "new york times" journalist has reported on is the leak of the hobby lobby case with the purpose of rallying stakeholders, which means right-wing social conservatives to support the group. the tactic could have been deployed as v exactly as you suggest, to get groups activated as people tried to do around hobby lobby to pressure the conservatives to not wobble. is that in your view a plausible scenario, worth a real investigation running down?

>> absolutely. absolutely. what would you get from leaking it if you have only three votes? you're not going to ever get -- >> you're not going to sway thomas. >> exactly. >> ridiculous. >> so maybe it wasn't one of the justices. maybe it was someone else. but the fact that they did not call in anybody independently to do the investigation. the fact that the rules never apply to the nine, the rules never apply to them, it's only the underlings that got the scrutiny, that doesn't build confidence in the supreme court. and if roberts was trying to do that, i give him an f. >> frank, you know where i'm coming. the fact is if you go back in time to their own words justice alito thought it was a, quote, threat of assassination that the conservatives faced. and you have to trust him, right? that he was afraid for his life. he was afraid for his life. why did the mall cop of the

supreme court do the probe? >> that's why i'm having a hard time accepting that this was just in confidence and stupidity. right? i think they understood that we need to keep this in house and control it and govern it and boy, let's put in charge of the investigation the woman whose salary we pay. who has no law enforcement career, by the way, and whose main job -- again, i'm not denigrating this. but her main be job be in life is to get up in the morning and say oye, oye, when the court goes in session every day. let's understand we've learned from the "new york times" that this case, this so-called investigation is now spoiled for any actual real law enforcement agency that were to be asked to come in and do it right. why do i say that? because we've learned that the employees and only the employees, because that's apparently all that were interviewed. they didn't go outside the building to interview people apparently. they were told under penalty of

dismissal, discipline you've got to cooperate with this investigation. do you know what that means? lawyers call that administratively compelled. what does that mean? it means if you were administratively compelled by your employer to cooperate with an internal investigation or get fired what you said can't be used criminally because you weren't read your rights. so it is a tainted, spoiled investigation. did they do that on purpose? the marshal of the court is an attorney. she knows what administratively compelled means. there's something really bad here, nicolle. >> dahlia, you write perhaps some of the most haunting consequences here in your latest piece. "maybe the irony of never learning who leaked the dobbs opinion is that the court claims to care deeply yet doesn't care to find out, and that is what rules for thee but not for me looks like. maybe a population that lives in an unsettled legal system in which precedent, predictability and order are gone, to be

replaced by outcomes that are as yet determined should not feel entitled to an accounting from the court about who stole a document in another unprecedented national betrayal that became part of another unprecedented national betrayal called dobbs. the anniversary, the uninvestigation, the expanding national jurisprudence of uncertainty. that is the new rule of law." wow. >> there's such a "downton abbey" thing going on here where what frank just described is a really chilling, terrifying investigation of employees, of law clerks, of people, you know, as jody cantor's article notes, some of these folks are just out of college working for the court. they are treated under threat of criminal sanction as though they are criminals. and then you get the sort of "downton abbey" like chats with

herbal tea with the justices. and it really just feels like this was an investigation that was deeply serious. i think frank's point is well taken. it actually will corrupt further investigation. it's deeply serious. only if one of the malefactors is an employee. it seems as though the justices really wanted to know and it is apiece of what we talked about when we discussed the ethics problem, which is it cannot be that everyone in the building is bound by ethical code except the nine justices. and just one other piece of this because you mentioned at the top that some of jodi's reporting is unsurprising. what's really surprising is how many people cooperated with jodi kantor's story this weekend. clerks don't talk about this. they are upset. employees are upset. that is new. >> yeah. and i didn't mean to diminish jodi kantor's reporting. it's incredible. i think i meant it in the spirit of an institution with 7% of

people thinking it's doing a good job. brian fallon. we don't know what we don't know and we would sound like wacky conspiracy theorists, right? if we tried to lock down what our theory of the case is and what the motives were. but as sort of operatives i feel like we know these three things. one, the supreme court is in a crisis moment. they talk about it all the time. clarence thomas talked about it. i'm not going to play it. but talked about how they used to be a family, a dysfunctional one, but they're not even that. i played justice kagan at the top. justice roberts is apparently bereft at the plunging approval rating of the court. we also don't need anyone, an internal investigator or the fbi, to suss out why. they are doing things that any normal listener of confirmation hearings thought they weren't going to do. right? they talked about precedent. i'm not a lawyer. maybe they left themselves some verbal wiggle room. i said this in the last hour. i'm just a cable anchor trying to follow the stories where they

go. but it certainly sounds like when they were before the senate judiciary committee that they viewed roe as precedent. and that sounds like if you're not a lawyer something you're not going to touch. we also know that ginni thomas was really psyched about the coup. she said so. she wrote it in e-mails and she tried to get other people to carry out a coup. this is all information readily available to chief justice john roberts. why do you think he does nothing except keep digging? >> well, supreme court is definitely if we didn't know it before jodi kantor's story we know it now. it's totally a dysfunctional family right now. but chief roberts is definitely the head of the household and it definitely falls on him to rein things in. and i think frequently when we talk about the loss in confidence that this court has suffered john roberts sometimes gets treated as sort of an innocent bystander to that because he's not the one going out leaking the hobby lobby decision to donors, that was sam alito.

he's rarely the one that's going and giving chest thumping speeches at the federal society or in louisville, kentucky. and as senator mccaskill was saying he tried to dissuade some of his colleagues from actually overturning roe in the dobbs decision. but this is a mess of john roberts' own making. it was his decision not to appoint a serious outside investigator to get to the bottom of this. it was his decision to sign off on this report that contained so much sleight of hand, clearly trying to elide initially whether the justices were being treated like regular employees and whether they were actually interviewed. 24 hours go by and they issue a supposedly clarifying statement on friday that further muddies the waters and tries to act like conversations were tantamount to interviews when everybody knows that they're not. you almost get the sense that john roberts knew that this was going tone counter criticism, so they bring in michael chertoff in this attempt to make it look like it's got the good

housekeeping seal of approval. and no offense to michael chertoff but he's a buddy of sam alito. he served with him on the 3rd circuit court of appeals. he's hardly an aindependent arbiter. at the very least you should have brought in a former democratic and a former republican appointee if you wanted to give some cover to this investigation. this was really a ham fifted attempt to shove this out there and get rid of this. and the last thing they do in the report they propose all these steps to further lower the veil of secrecy on the court's activities when what they need is more transparency if they have any hope of restoring confidence in the institution, what they need is to have more daylight brought to this institution, have more openness, more transparency. john roberts' instincts seem to be the opposite. and so i think this time the buck stops with him and the failure is his in terms of the eroding legitimacy of the court. >> let's stick with the head of household analogy for a minute, brian fallon. you worked for and reported directly to principals, right? we both have. if one of your fellow principals be believes he is at risk much, quote, assassination attempts

after the opinion leaks and you're the head of the household, what is your obligation in terms of protecting the rest of the parents in the household? what do you do with the event, the leak in alito's words, that was going to potentially lead to the, quote, assassination of the six conservatives? what was roberts -- if that is true -- and we have to accept alito believed that and that it remained true. what should roberts have done if that was the concern of the other parents or grown-ups in the household? >> carry out an investigation that even if at the end of the day it proved impossible to solve the whodunit and actually find somebody that met the preponderance of an evidence standard, carry out an investigation that was going to be at least unassailable in how it was conducted. and from the get-go when you appoint somebody that is basically the marshal of the court, a lawyer yes, but not somebody with any sort of of investigative chops, from the get-go it was clear that john roberts was putting the premium on keeping this in house and not

letting the family sort of secrets and the family dysfunction spill to the outside world as opposed to actually trying to solve the problem and get to the bottom of what happened here. you know, you described it and senator mccaskill described it well. you talk about people like justice thomas, talk about people like justice alito, these are people who tha had clear opportunity, clear motive to want to leak the opinion. and last time i was on your show, nicolle, we were talking about that "new york times" report about the alito leak. that came out while this investigation was happening. why was that not a credible lead that sam alito might have been the leaker in this case too? and so the marshal puts out a statement saying there is no basis to interview the justices. that just defies belief. and it shows that the only reason you wouldn't conduct an investigation that included the justices themselves is because you're afraid of what you might find out. and in this case chief justice roberts put more of a premium to protect the court in his aham-fisted way and protect the justices themselves than actually figure out what happened here. >> dahlia, where do we go from

here? >> i mean, i completely agree with brian that this myth that has been pushed, which is the court is just different and it's different because the justices are gods and they never make mistakes, they don't police themselves because they don't have to police themselves, is clearly not a myth that the public is buying. and the corollary to that, which is as you noted the justices saying there's threats on our lives, there's attacks on our legitimacy, everybody hates us, it must be your fault, clearly isn't working. so i think some level of account ability, chief justice john roberts gave his year-end speech on new year's eve. instead of saying we have to do better, all of us, we have to meet this moment, he just talked about threats to the judiciary. so his loop of misbehavior and then not taking personal responsibility for it has to stop and it has to stop at the top. it has to come from the chief

justice. >> just an extraordinary story, an extraordinary moment. and a once revered institution. dahlia lithwick, brian fallon. frank figliuzzi, claire mccaskill. thanks for starting us off this hour. 50 years after roe vs. wade and seven months after the conservative majority dismantd v mantled it abortion rights advocates led by vice president kamala harris are pushing back against the extremists who continue to push for more restrictions of women's health care and a woman's right to choose. where the fight for abortion rights goes after a quick break. plus california congresswoman judy chu will be our guest to talk about the horrific mass shooting that has shattered monterey park, california, her hometown of nearly four decades. and a pair of verdicts in high-profile trials involving january 6th. we'll tell you about what two different juries decided to do today. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. se" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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republicans in congress are now calling for a nationwide abortion ban. some even from the moment of conception. the right of every woman in every state in this country to make decisions about her own body is on the line. and i said it before and i will say it again. how dare they! how dare they? >> vice president kamala harris

voicing the outrage of women and men all across america on the 50th anniversary of the roe vs. wade decision. thousands took to the streets this weekend to voice their anger and fear over the united states supreme court stripping away the constitutional right to an abortion nearly seven months ago. anti-abortion rights activists who were also marching over the weekend to celebrate forcing previously unimaginable nightmare situations on generations of women have become emboldened. they want more. they are pushing for nationwide bans on abortion and urging state legislatures to criminalize miscarriages and strip away exceptions for rape and the life and health of the mom. case in point, in arkansas a new bill that allows women to be prosecuted for the death of an unborn child, which means that women could be investigated and prosecuted when they miscarry their pregnancies. in kansas gop lawmakers are trying to allow cities to ban

abortions despite voters overwhelmingly supporting abortion rights over the support. and in wyoming a new bill would get raid of exceptions in cases of incest or rape in the state's near total abortion ban and allow district attorneys and the wyoming a.g. to sue abortion providers. and there's idaho where a court's ruling could soon force women to receive life-saving abortions via c-section. one lawmaker telling the legislature that his background in livestock makes him a women's health expert. watch. >> i've milked a few cows, spent most of my time walking behind lines of cows. so if you want some ideas on repro and the women's health thing, i have some definite opinions. >> republicans. that is who they are. walking behind cows. cecile richards, former president of planned parenthood, now the co-chair of american bridge. i thought this was a very sad

and depressing anniversary. and i was glad to see the vice president gave an incredible speech and some great interviews. but what's so scary about this version of the republican party is instead of celebrating their victories and taking stock of where their own base is the extremists are in control of abortion policy as well and what they're pushing through is against the wishes of their own voters, that it's a runaway train. what are you girding for in this new year? >> nicolle, you're so right. and that's what's incredible, is they clearly -- it's not that they didn't hear what voters said in november. where of course races were decided all across the country on this issue. they decided they just simply don't care. and i think what's interesting politically is of course this is animated not only women but young people, men, independent

voters. we saw so many people who left the republican party over this issue. and i think that's going to continue. but the problem as you so importantly point out is women are still suffering. and so -- as the republican party disregards the will of the voters, the impact on women is horrific. i happen to be in louisiana right now. there was a recent story, a woman here who not only was denied prenatal care in the state of louisiana but then as she was miscarrying was turned away repeatedly because doctors and health care providers are terrified of even providing care for women who are miscarrying. it's a terrible state of affairs. and of course as you know this is not a unique thing. we have 17 states now that banned abortion. and as you just pointed out, many of them are in fact trying to make it work. >> yeah. and there's no patient more vulnerable than a woman going through a miscarriage. it's so unthinkable.

i want to read you something that jessica valenti wrote yesterday. it's provocative but it made me think. "here's what they're celebrating." talking about the march for life participants this year. "they're celebrating the cancer patient in ohio who sobbed when told they had to leave the state for their medically necessary abortions. they were delighted over the pregnant woman in rapidly failing health who was told not to come back unless she had a stroke. the protesters spilling onto the streets were celebrating the laws that forced a raped 10-year-old in ohio to leave her home state for an abortion and banned an arizona 14-year-old from getting arthritis medication. every day that abortion bans are in place are another day that a girl or woman suffers. that's what these people are celebrating. that's what they're happy over. and we can't let people forget it." that would not have been true before, when we were debating i guess the old frame was, you know, maybe how to make them -- the '90s debate was about making abortion safer or more rare.

i think that was the right and the pro-life side's argument. but now that is precisely what they're advocating for because roe has been overturned. how do you view the movement on the other side now? >> well, i think it's -- i'm so glad you looked it up, what jessica's doing. i think she's really doing a sort of uniquely important job of reporting on these matters. but i would add to that when i was reading -- there was a big story about the fact that even though those are supposedly exceptions in some states for rape and incest, in some states for the life of the mother, the problem is there are no doctors left to provide this care and so it may be a right on paper but effectively it doesn't exist. and some of these anti-abortion republican leaders were saying they really didn't mind putting in these exceptions because they knew that in fact women couldn't take advantage of them because there's no health care system left. that's what's really terrifying,

is it's not only the laws. it's the fact that millions of people literally have no access to care. and you're right, there's nothing more terrifying than having a troubled pregnancy and having no medical provider that you can turn to. you add on to that of course my home state of texas where it's in fact criminally prosecutable if you in fact help somebody who needs access to life-saving care, abortion services. and so it's become terrifying for providers, for health care providers, for clinicians and for women and their families. that's why i think you're seeing the outrage among voters. i wish the republican party would listen. >> yeah, it would be better for women right now. i agree with you. i think it's wrrding the elections were zwied eddecided issue, the idea women would get over it by november was

ludicrous. most abortion bans include exceptions in practice but few are granted. this is from the "new york times." "in the months since the court's decision very few exceptions to these new abortion bans have been granted, the new york times review of available state data and interviews with dozen of physicians advocates and lawmakers revealed. instead those with means are traveling to states where abortion is broadly legal or obtaining abortion pills at home because the requirements to xwauf for exceptions are too steep. dockets doctors and hospitals are turning away patients because they say ambiguous laws are making them unwilling to test the rules." we now have the inequity of this care. if you have the means to leave the state you can and you do because you go to your hometown hospital you're not going to get the care you've asked for without unbelievable suspicion and scrutiny. how do we fix that while we wait for the world to change? >> no, i mean, this is why we have to be lifting up the real

lived experiences of people all across this country. and i think that what we are lifting up and jessica does, some of the most horrific stories, these are women who've come forward. these are people who we've heard about. what i'm of course so worried about are the millions of people we're not hearing about, who don't have access to having their story told in the "new york times." there is the terrifying story of the teenager in texas who went through all of the procedures she was supposed to do to be able to terminate an unintended pregnancy but was ultimately denied by a judge who forced her to go and listen to rhetoric from anti-abortion crisis -- you know, fake crisis pregnancy centers. these kind of stories are happening everywhere. and i think it's incredibly important, and you've done the best job of anyone, of making sure that we're putting a human face on what is a tragedy in this country with the overturning of roe.

>> and the white house did an incredible job. we have to have you come back tomorrow. i want to show -- they're trying to do just this because i think in the real world impact for women and in the political imperative of bringing about change before too many women suffer the white house seems to be -- and i see your hand maybe in some of this. to be continued. because i think it's a sustained effort by people who understand that this -- as you said, that the really horrible things are not the things we're reading about in the "new york times." it's always a pleasure to talk to you, cecile richards. thank you so much. >> thanks, nicolle. >> when we come back, back to the story we started with in the last hour. the tragic and horrific mass shooting in monterey park, california. congresswoman judy chu, who has called monterey park her home for nearly 40 years, will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick. don't go anywhere. taneous thing. some people say i'm excessive, but who cares - i'm just looking for a saturday to remember and a sunday by the pool.

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multiple law enforcement sources familiar with the investigation into the mass shooting tell nbc news that while the exact motive for the slayings remains elusive evidence gathered thus far in the case suggest a personal motive rather then terrorism or a hate crime. nbc news has also obtained this exclusive video of the moment of the takedown of the suspect by 26-year-old brandon tsay at the lai lai ballroom and studio in nearby alhambra, where the gunman went after the shooter in

monterey park. tsay told lester holt he was worried for his life, that he knew in that moment he had to act to save more lives. joining us now, congresswoman judy chu of california, a long-time resident of monterey park and the chair of the asian pacific caucus. thank you for being here, congresswoman. >> thank you for having me. >> first i'm so sorry for this horrific tragedy in your community. i'm so sorry for the amount of people who are impacted and the fear that everybody feels. what is your latest understanding? it sounds like law enforcement officials are telling members of the press that the motive appears personal at this point. >> it does seem that that is the case. we are learning more about this shooter. he was a frequent patron of the two dance studios and fancied himself to be a pretty good

ballroom dancer, would offer free dance lessons, and met his wife there. but she is quoted as saying that he was displeased if she missed her dance steps and then divorced her in 2005. so there's something about him and those dance studios that is the cause of this. but what that is exactly we don't know. what caused him to snap at this point. >> congresswoman, the celebration that was under way i think makes this tragedy all the more gutting for the community and outside, all over the country. everyone celebrating. what is your message to people about how the community's doing and responding and what they need? >> so this shooting occurred

only hours after we had an opening ceremony for a very joyous lunar new year celebration. there were tons of elected officials. there were thousands of people walking around. and it was only one block away from the place where the shooting took place. and the reason there was so much enthusiasm was because this was on hiatus for three years due to covid. people were really looking forward to getting some normalcy. so i could just really feel the energy was tremendous. so to have this happen at this time is just so horrific. but what i am telling people now that we know the threat of a shooter is not there anymore is that we need to go back to these celebrations, we need to go back to normalcy, and we need to support one another and especially the victims who will,

i'm sure, have a very, very hard time in the next few months if not years. >> what you're sharing with us is something i'm hearing for the first time, that the shooter, the alleged shooter's own ties to the two dance studios and the almost abnormal anger he felt toward his former wife about the dance steps. i wonder if you have any information about brandon tsay, who stopped the alleged shooter from potentially carrying out a shooting at a second location. do you know if he was known or if he recognized this individual as a frequent patron? >> he said that he did not recognize this person. but he's my hero. >> right? >> he took it upon himself to wrestle this guy to the ground. and the guy had a gun. but brandon had some idea that he would cause a huge amount of

destruction. and in fact this gunman probably would have killed twice as many people. so for him to do this was tremendous. and i'm so glad he was a young man. i could not imagine some of those older patrons of the ballroom dance doing the same thing. so he was right there at the right time for sure. >> it's extraordinary. i want to tell our viewers, and i don't know fudge see this, congresswoman, but nbc news has some exclusive video, surveillance tape of the moment of this altercation between the alleged shooter and brandon. and it's playing out in a way that certainly underscores your point, that this was a very physical, quite literally life or death altercation between someone who had already carried out a whole lot of destruction and death being stopped by a citizen. and he said in an interview that my colleague lester holt's going to air on "nightly news" in just a little bit that he froze for a

moment but then he jumped into action, knew he might die but carried out this heroic act. and there on the video on your screens you see how it ended. it ended with him leaving. any last thoughts about how the community starts the healing process? >> well, i've lived in this community for 37 years, and i was its mayor and city council member. i know this community, and i know this community is resilient. i know that we are stronger when we work together. and i know that there's a lot of support for those who are in need. so i think that the victims are going to get the help that they need from the community. and i believe that we will get through this. we will get through this together. >> congresswoman judy chu, thank you very much for spending some time with us. we're grateful to you. >> thank you. >> switching gears for us, jurors were busy today in cases

related to the deadly january 6 insurrection. we will tell you about how they ended next. ended next he he

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stewart rhodes in their plot to keep the disgraced former president in power by force. the oath keepers verdict comes on the heels of one of the day's more infamous rioters finally being brought to justice. richard barnett, the man seen here who put his feet up on the desk of then house speaker nancy pelosi, was found guilty on all counts today including theft of government property after taking the stand in his own defense last week. barnett maintained that he did not consider his actions illegal but did regret going to the capitol that day saying this -- "i'm going to suffer the consequences but i hope they see i didn't break the law and acted like an f blank idiot." let's bring in harry litman, former deputy assistant attorney general. i'm not a jury expert but it sounds like the jury decided you could be both, an f blank idiot and guilty. >> yeah. special verdict charge. is he or is he not an f-ing idiot. >> what is the significance --

>> and by the way, besides the enormity of the verdicts themselves, these are losable -- especially the oath keepers, losable cases. there's a real satisfying aspect to both. you see this f-ing idiot, or jackass put his feet up on pelosi's desk and then on the other side justice is done. and likewise at the trial of the folks there the testimony said, you know, after all this swagger and bombast and the attack plans, one of the co-conspirators, a cooperating witness, said then they found out that night at dinner that the federal agents were looking for them and they scattered like cockroaches when the light come cockroaches when the light comes on. besides justice being done, there's the kind of satisfaction that's the flip slight of their brazen lawlessness that we all have to watch unfurl in realtime. >> harry, on friday i had the

pleasure of interviewing the lead investigator for the january 6th select committee, and i asked him pointedly on a couple different occasions in a couple different ways whether he thought doj could reach any conclusion other than to prosecute trump criminally for the crimes that the committee referred, and he unequivocally said know whg we know, and conceding that doj could create more evidence than less, he didn't see how they could not. what do you think? >> i really think we have passed that same threshold. the question had always been about intent, and his committee in particular did miraculously good work in really eliminating any kind of inference of innocent intent. it's been made so clear. now, look, i thought that the action appointing her last week by garland demonstrated -- maybe

this isn't wrong, but we hadn't expected a political antenna and sensitivity and maybe a set of considerations that would make him stay his hand, but i think myth is going to recommend it, and that's a whole other reason garland is likely to do it. as a prosecutor i would never want to say no doubt at all, but it does seem to me they more than made the case, and if i'm a betting person, i'm betting that the charge will be forthcoming, and that has, by the way, notwithstanding anything about this biden sideshow. >> harry levin, thank you very much for being part of our conversation in coverage today. really important stuff. another quick break for us. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. not part of it but the whole upstairs the whole downstairs the whole fridge and the whole secret nap room because is it really a vacation home

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> thank you, nicolle. we're tracking several stories, including an update on the case about lies and defamation at fox news. first, the news we're expecting the hear from officials who will update on that horrific and deadly shooting in monterrey park in california over the weekend. 11 people killed, 9 others killed at this lunar new year's celebration saturday night when a gunman opened fire. we have the latest, and it is important.