. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the merrick garland standard for the voluntary classified documents is to be applied evenly, this time tomorrow there will be a special counsel

appointed to investigate classified documents that were discovered at former vice president and likely presidential candidate mike pence's house, right? documents returned according to an adviser for the former vice president mike pence. aides to former vice president mike pence found a, quote, small number of documents bearing classified markings during a search of pence's indiana home. according to the archives and the fbi collected the classified documents from the home on january 19th. the discovery comes as a shock, sort of. given that pence stated over and over again since his former boss's home was searched by federal officials after he failed to turn over classified documents to the national archives that he, mike pence, did not take any classified documents with him. this is what mike pence said when asked about it to cbs's robert costa just over ten days ago. he was asked a specific question, did you take any

classified documents with you? watch. >> our staff reviewed all of the materials in our office and in our residence to ensure that there were no classified materials that left the white house or remain in our possession. and i -- i remain confident that was done in a thorough and careful way. cheerily in the waning days of the trump-pence administration, that process was not properly executed by staff around the president of the united states. >> merrick garland led to the appointment of special counsel to investigate joe biden's similar situation, voluntary return of classified documents is going to be applied now evenly across political party to anyone, like joe biden or mike

pence, who voluntarily return classified documents to the federal government. we should be ready for this. the imminent appointment of a special counsel to investigate pence or anyone else who returns classified documents to the national archives or the fbi. maybe someone else should knock on the door of national security adviser and john bolton. someone should call former ambassador to the u.n. and likely presidential candidate nikki haley. a million new questions when we goin day with our most favorite friends. former u.s. attorney and now law professor at the university of alabama. also joining us, andrew weissman, senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. and former republican congressman david jolly is here.

so andrew, obviously i'm posing a theoretical. but wasn't this the slippery slope, the standard created by lumping together the one that isn't like any of the others, the trump criminal investigation by having the same person called the same thing investigate both? >> you just can't have a special counsel every single time a issue comes up. you have to remember, it is not a crime to have classified documents in your possession if you don't know it. it can be a mistake. it can be something that raises the national security issues. but it's not always worthy of a criminal investigation. so there is one thing that merrick garland could do here. and that is he could go the

route that he did with president biden and have somebody do a preliminary look. that's not actually opening a criminal investigation. it's a preliminary assessment. that is one option that is available to them. he investigating somebody that is not his boss. i mean the department of justice is supposed to be able to do investigations of democrats and republicans and the reason for the special counsel is sort of regulations is to give public extra confidence when you're investigating the person who you report to. i can see this in the interim solution, especially because it really appears that mike pence's counsel learned from what the --

what the current president did and former president did. >> i take your point, fair enough. but what -- i mean the gaetz investigation was opened by barr. nothing's come of it. what high profile republican has garland investigated or seem willing to investigate, andrew? you're raising another important issue which is that merrick garland seems to have a problem when he appoints a republican but he doesn't do the same when it's a democrat. he seems to have basically taken the message from the attack on

robert mueller. there is an actual predicate for finding intent. that is the key fact. obviously, there's been -- right now there is zero, zero evidence of obstruction either in the biden case or in the pence case which is a huge differentiator with the former president. >> andrew, i don't mean to drill down near any raw nerves here. i don't mean to pick on the current attorney general. but all we as a general public is what the public is facing. this is what the public is facing. we got to see the confident that led to a court approved search

on donald trump's house. and then there were crimes ticked off in that mob boss goes to jail for kmigt. nothing happened. and now the whisper that is starting to seep into public commentary abiden can make it hard to make that case. again, i'm not a lawyer. maybe that's true. but what the pence case does is bring into the point that you're bringing, the apples to apples is pence and biden. if there is no special counsel needed for pence, why is one needed for biden, andrew? >> i think that is really the issue. and you'll be hearing sort of surrogates for the white house making that point which is that this was sort of jumping too quickly to appointing a special counsel that there wasn't -- yes, it may there be is communication failure. but this wasn't anything that involves obstruction of justice or knowing an intentional possession. so it is going to put front and

center that issue. with respect to rob herr, the dye is cast. that is already in place. it just cannot be that we're going to have a slew of special counsels. it just way too distracting the body politic and this sort of policy issues we should be worried about. >> joyce, i think you no he this by now, one thing i keep my eye on is the right-wing is being too kind. we'll call it spin. the spin that right has put on and the crumb or the bread crumb they keep dropping is how does a lawyer do the search of biden's office or home? well in, the case of pence, a lawyer is doing the search of pence's home. because if there may be someone

there. the thing you do is you have a lawyer. and not even any lawyer, but a lawyer with security clearances. so i mean what is this case sort of blow open in your mind? >> we had that conversation about the news that broke about biden that the logical thing is have your lawyer looking through your old papers for a lot of different reasons, not because anyone expected there was classified documents there. but to your conversation with andrew, you know, i guess i'm trying to look on the bright side of this. maybe this finally means we'll get first black or the first woman as a special counsel. that hasn't happened yet. and it looks like as more former government officials do searches, merrick garland may well have put himself into a box where he feels obligated to use that process. but the special counsel regs are very specific. they only tell the attorney general to appoint a special

counsel if a crime has been committed. and that's why andrew is so right when he says the first step here is to have somebody do a first look to see if a crime has been committed. and perhaps the entire issue that we're facing now is the fact that this justice department where the attorney general has said repeatedly that he is very interested in restoring public confidence in the justice department. that he took that too far when he appointed a special counsel in the biden situation. now i think the chickens are about to come home and roost. >> but ien into a very real sense, right, this was always doj's responsibility. i get that joe biden is in some sense merrick garland's off. garland is supposed to be pushing the narrative of doj's independence and demonstrating his integrity by picking the hard cases. it seems to me that now we're on a slippery slope.

it's going to be tough for garland to backtrack and say i'm going to draw the line here. we did it once. no more special counsel. doj can certainly handle this. that's what he should do. as long as political optics don't continue to interject here. >> i think political optics are the driving force at this justice department from the outside. that is a fair read. i want to follow with you, though, on the point that andrew made. all "the new york times" and the "post" and the timing of the special counsel for trump has the announcement to run for president. sort of a triggering event. part of the reason everyone he understands he wasn't cooperative with the profession inquiry into the assassination for him and his family's life is for political considerations. mike pompeo was going to run for president. nikki haley has designs on being president. john bolton said he intends to

run for president. these are all people in the same category as joe biden and donald trump. they plan to run for president. en that second group, excluding donald trump, i mean pence had something classified. should we go check if any of these other people that might want to run for president plan to sort of disclose anything that they inadvertently took that may be classified? should we run this to the ground now so that we can understand what the justice department's standard is for special counsel to investigate a likely presidential candidate who inadvertently took classified documents and voluntarily returned them? >> right. so i don't think that's what the standard really was, nicole. i think it's clear we saw the appointment of the first special counsel because they understood that biden had classified documents too. and the special counsel was not appointed for trump until after doj was aware of that. you know, history will tell. but that looks to me like a

strong motivating factor. the announcement of the candidacy may be helpful and pushing that across the finishing line. and maybe that is the standard that doj will land on. they can engage in a search of any government box thez have in their home. it may be easy for folks to rip off the band-aid as part of the hurt here. but the real concern that we need to think about is the national security implications here. we talked a lot about legal considerations and political considerations. here's where the national security considerations need to be front and center. most of the white house as you know is a skiff. there is a freer use of classified documents. it may be easier for something

to stay on somebody's desk and get packed up, i don't know. but somebody needs to get a handle on that. there needs to be a determination of whether this is a white house problem, limited to the white house and then the incoming white house chief of staff will writer better regulations and cleaning the problem up or is it a wider problem in government? that is the most important thing right now. top secret documents are documents that if they are released into the wrong hands could do grave damage to national security. we need to get our hands on what kind of aa problem we're looking at. >> by that standard, pence's classified documents are far more recent than joe biden's vice-presidential classified documents on a national security issue, what sort of measure should be taken to make sure that there hasn't been a spill in terms of what he took home? >> well, we don't know yet.

it is true that there is reporting that was what was found in biden's personal home did in part date back to his time in the senate. but it also was much more recent. and we also don't know with respect to the vice president -- vice president pence exactly what was found. i do share joyce's concern. and you have to remember the reason that the department of justice authorized its search of mar-a-lago went to that step is because you had no cooperation which obviously is completely different than president biden and vice president pence. but also, because there was a real concern that you had national security information in the wild. and that is really a systemic issue. it's very hard when we're in the midst of politics and everyone's thinking about how to, you know,

how this is going to help or hurt somebody. to really step back and think about how this really hurts america. it is really not useful for the intelligence community to have this kind of sloppiness. it is something that our allies overseas are taking note of. and they share information with us with the understanding that things will be kept intact and secret. so clearly there is a problem. and we don't know if the scope of it, if we had a functioning sort of white house and congress we would actually have a commission looking at this issue and figuring out what is the systemic solution? it's not that hard to be on top of this. when it was top secret information, it was -- there was nothing left on your desk.

that was given to you. you read it, you gave it back. >> i worked in the bush white house after 9/11 w he had safes in our office. if the door was ajar, went to the bathroom, and richard painter was our white house ethics adviser. people want to imagine how things were handled in that white house. i find all of it incomprehensible. but there is a recency issue, david jolly. mike pence was just vice president. what was found -- again, i do think the apples to apples are pence and biden. i think we should do a sweep of of what was -- what they have. they should all go back. but the standard that has been created and a moment when there is a -- an epic vacuum of government institutions and a real growing angt that merrick garland doesn't want to do the

hard things. >> did you take any classified documents with you from the white house? >> i did not. >> do you see any reason for anyone to take classified documents with them leaving the white house? >> well, there is no reason. >> so, david, let's do what they never do for us, let's give the benefit of the doubt and assume he is telling the truth. did you take anything? no. >> okay. right? that's normal. it comes in another category. it goes to his home office and finds stuff there, he calls and he says give them back. i don't think you should have to investigate this. but the same standard has to be applied to everyone who when asks says, no, i didn't take anything. no, i don't see any reason for anyone to do it. no intent to do it. no belief that's a good idea. when they find it, they give it back. but every person for whom that's the fact pattern that plans to run for president of these

united states should be treated the same. is that not a reasonable position? >> i believe it s i think pence story draws in sharp contrast the contrast that is already developed between president biden and former trurm. with donald trump, you had not only the possession but you had the secondary and third behaviors, obstruction being the primary one, intent to deceive and mislead and outlying about the documents you have, the effort to move them so that they couldn't be found. there are all of those behaviors that given the fact he was a former president and now a likely candidate again led merrick garland to appoint a special counsel. and so then we see the biden development. and, look, i understand andrew's point. but merrick garland is in a tough spot. it is a sitting president of the united states. he is being asked to make some hard decisions. either he doesn't want to make the hard decisions or he's proving to be the most sober and deliberate attorney general that we've seen in a long time.

but now what do you do with pence in the pence documents came forward for the same reason we may see them from pompeo and haley and other presidential candidates because they're preparing to run. they are making sure that they are able to launch cleanly. i think there may be an off ramp for merrick garland. my exposure to the independent counsel statute. but the attorney general was able to expand the jurisdiction or court could expand the jurisdiction of a special counsel. there may be there is an opportunity. instead of appointing a special dozen counsels to say the trump case is unique for obstruction and intent and misleading. the biden case does not involve those behaviors and the pence case did not involve those behaviors, pompeo down the line,

ultimately what may lie in the trump case, it's not a case about destruction, it's a case about use. what type of business is donald trump and his family and his em -- empire engaged in which that classified documents were beneficial to him personally. all those questions get asked because of the obstruction and intent to mislead the. none of those questions need to be asked of biden and pence based on the information we currently have. >> what do you make of the, you know, as i said, i watched the conservative media so that none of you have to. they didn't have the confidential. it got out to cnn and fox. i work in the republican party. the republican party is not going to win any medals. what do you think of the shape shifting on the right, david jolly? >> listen, i mean, they're barn

burners on the right now. newt gingrich within an hour or so of the biden story breaking about ten days ago was referring to the biden crime family. one conserve tough commentator pulled his driver's license and said that was his legal residence. chairman comer, the folk is whatever the allegation, is he shouts hunter biden. that's what you'll see in conservative media. it doesn't matter the facts with biden. they'll make it an investigation. the second narrative they're going to chase here when goes to the weaponization committee they established is republicans want to say they're treated unfairly by prosecutors and the federal government and democrats are treated with kit gloves. so wherever the facts are, they'll focus on the fact that republicans continue to be mistreated and subjected to a different style and type of justice even though there is no there there to make that

argument. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, we are closer than ever before to learning whether or not the twice impeached ex-president and his allies will be indicted for trying to overturn the 2020 election. the da and fulton county, georgia, told a judge decision on indictments is imminent. later in the program, we turn to another deadly tragedy in california. another mass shooting targeting more americans. this one while they were just at work. we'll ask the question again and every time this happens, when will leaders in washington do something different? the white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e house conti a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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there was naction a georgia courtroom that could ultimately heed us to annance to the biggest questions in american politics at this hour. donald trump could have been indicted for trying to overturn the election in 2020. they heard arguments on whether to release the report by a special grand jury in the investigation by the fulton county district attorney into team trump campaign to reverse this in georgia. that report is the culmination of months of investigations by her office. it includes testimony from dozens of key players in the trump coup plot including judy giuliani, lindsey graham, possibly, we don't know, but possibly even the former chief of staff mark meadows. it is a probe that moved at light speed according to jack

smith and doj. the attorney made it clear she did not want the report to be released. but her remarks here to the judge dropped some big hints about why that is and what might be next. watch. >> we think for future defendants to be treated fairly, it's not appropriate at this time to have this report released. i as the elected district attorney have made several commitments to the public understanding the public interests around this case. at this time in the interest of justice and the rights of not the state but others, we are asking that the report not be released because you haven't seen that report. decisions are imminent. >> decisions are imminent. in the interest of defendants. wow. we're back with our panel. at the courthouse for us in atlanta is blayne alexander who

is at the center of understanding this story you -- we saw what she said there. what is behind these statements today from district attorney bonnie welsh? >> you know, what was interesting when we walked into this hearing, when we began the day, we really were watching to hear what she would say. before today, we didn't have any indication. she had said publicly whether she was going to be for or against releasing this publicly. so for her to come up and within first ten minutes of that hearing really not have a very strong argument saying she doesn't want this report to come out publicly was certainly notable. she said she is doing it in the interest of the rights of future defendants. the rights to have a fair trial here in this jurisdiction. and decisions are imminent. after we saw her from the da, we heard from her team and they kind of gave a little bit more insight into where their position stands. one thing i thought was notable is the counsel said that he

doesn't believe that they're going to oppose it indefinitely. they're not going to be against releasing it forever. they say at some point it will become public. but as it stands right now, at the point that she hasn't made her decision on whether or not to indict, what sort of charges to bring, he says once she does that and announces that decision publicly, then it will be more appropriate to have this conversation. but on the other side, we heard a very robust argument from the media from a number of media organization that's have come together in this coalition. they were represented by an attorney today. essentially that, attorney is back there and there is extraordinary public interest what is in that document. you and i know that very well. everybody wants to know what's inside of the document. it gets to the heart of public trust in the court. he also afforded very notably to the fact that the special grand juries voted to make this public. if that's their well will, they heard this testimony. they should have the will be carried out. the judge said he is not ruling

today. neither side is going to be surprised if that document comes out. he says that he's going to rule, you know, some time in the future. but certainly a couple of things that were important to watch. i have to point to a couple things that stood out to me in the hearing today. we did learn about that. we learned according to the d.a. that over the course of this investigation there were 75 witnesses that the special grand jurors heard from. that number was previously undisclosed. we no you that number is 75. relatively high number there. we also kind of know that the degrees they went to keep this from leaking. the judge said that he hand delivered a copy of that report to the da's office personally. he said that as far as he knows that, is the only copy in circulation. she is now the sole proprietor of that. so very notable the stuff they took to make sure that didn't get out. >> maybe he can help the supreme court. that is a really interesting

precaution. i have one follow up question for you. you interviewed the da multiple times. she chooses words very carefully. appears to in interviews with you. what does imminent mean in d.a. bonnie willis terms? >> i'm going to say we've been talking about that since she said that word. my producer and i have literally been kind of ping-ponging back and forth. what does imminent mean? we don't know. i mean that is the nature of this. we don't know if she is going before a regular grand jury any day now. we just don't know exactly what that time line looks like. i do think that when she said it though, a lot of ears perked up to know that something in her words is imminent. later on in the proceedings we heard from somebody in her office who essentially said that the reason they're saying that it's premature to put this report out now is because they haven't had a chance to go through it. if there are recommendations in that reporting, be very careful not to tip their hand and say that there were.

but if there are and haven't had a chance to go through and decide how to act on those, so essentially saying that's why she waited a little longer. bottom line, we don't know. we're watching very closely. >> i want to bring our legal geniuses in this. she wants to protect the -- she highlights this rights of future defendants. are we to deduce she plans on charging people with crimes? that's the only way you become a defendant in the future, right? >> well, it seems very clear that is going to happen. one thing that could happen though is that the report could be saying we recommend that you charge persons a, b, c, d, and e. but she is going to take that recommend togs some but not all of the people. it would be very fair for a da to say it's really not fair and appropriate to have a report casting, you know, aspersions on

people who have not been criminally charged. that is one possibility. and the other just to blaine's reporting about it, her stance here which was very much i just don't want you to release this now. so timing is everything. it's clear that she is going to be fine with releasing it once she makes a decision about who to charge and who not to charg. the judge is not ruling any time. he is not ruling imminently. if she is going to beat him to the punch and bring charges, this whole back and forth could become, you know, irrelevant because she then changes her position and now that we brought charge weerz okay with the report being released. and she would then have not just her charges but she could have a report from the grand jury just to support her discussion. >> joyce, i want to ask you the same questions. i also, you know, we know that

cassidy hutchison went down to georgia. we know that the 1/6 committee and they confirmed this on friday has real concerns about her and her safety. could some of the nondisclosure of this kind of information be about the safety and security and preservation of some of the key witnesses? >> you know, it absolutely could. as a prosecutor, you're always concerned about the safety of your witnesses. and in this indication, there is something else. we know that there was a previous effort to influence cassidy hutchison. there have to be concerns about that. the full names of the list of 75 witnesses is revealed. but, nicole, i want to put on my appellate lawyer hat for a second to be the anger translator here. when she is saying to the judge that she's worried about how defendants are treated and whether they're treated with fairness, i think she's really saying that she's concerned about her ability to protect the

integrity of any convictions she gets on appeal. if defendants say i got the most unfair trial because this grand jury report was released that said all sorts of horrible things about me before i was indicted and before this jury was ever seated. i think she explicitly expressed concerns about being able to try the case in fulton county suggesting that pretrial publicity there may mean the case would have to move to another county in georgia. that is not unprecedented when there is pretrial publicity. so she is in essence saying to the judge, please don't mess with my case. please let me make my imminent charging decisions. i think even post indictment she will will favor only a very redacted release of this report until she gets to try her case. >> okay. so we dug into some of what is public facing in terms of what happened in georgia and what she may have given. she did not show her cards.

let me play this for you. this is meadows on what he was doing in georgia. >> chief of staff mark meadows took the extraordinary step of showing up at a signature audit site in georgia where he met with secretary's chief investigators francis watson supervising that audit process. behind me is a photograph from that visit. the day after meadows' georgia visit, he set up a call between president trump and francis watson. they received text messages indicatesing that he wanted to send some of the investigators in her office in the words of one white house aide, a. [ beep ] of potus stuff including coins, maga hats, et cetera. >> i want to ask you, you know, mark meadows is this black box, right? he was the star witness in the eyes of the january 6 select committee because of the text messages. would turn over initially and

maybe again articulated there was a time line that had him flipping in terms of his willingness to cooperate. but we don't know what we don't know about whether he was a good witness or whether he spilled the beans about what he was trying to give a bleep load of potus stuff including coins, actual autographed maga hats, i guess those are valuable somewhere. what are the crimes believed to be under investigation? do they include the election fraud? do they include the big electors, bribery? is that testimony from adam schiff seems to indicate? blayne that, is for you. >> yeah. i think it could be all of that. i caught the very end of that question. it runs the gamut. when we talk about potential charges here, of course, we're going to focus on could there be charges for former president trump? but i think it's important to realize is that this was an exhaustive investigation. there are also a number of other

people that could be charged. this were a number of people we know publicly weren't informed that they were targets of this investigation. so it's something that started with a phone call from former donald trump. they made it clear that it expanded widely beyond. that i think it will be interesting to see, you know, one, if that report does become public, what parts of it are public and redacted. and then, yes, there are certainly enough things to watch in terms who have could see charges coming from this entire thing. >> and i guess, andrew, we forget how much wrongdoing went on. the fake electors plot has had it one of the beating hearts georgia. and there were fake electors solicited. judy giuliani said to them. they were solicited in public. >> you are the final arbitor for who the electors should be and whether the process is fair or not and the other way to look at it, it's your responsibility if

a false and fraudulent count is submitted to the united states government. >> so trump supporter, secretary of state said that in georgia where rudy was when he said that, there was no false and fraudulent count. and also in georgia the republican trump supporting governor said the same thing. but there was rudy loud and out loud trying to get electors to present themselves as fake. what are sort of the threads that might have been pursued by willis on this front end, andrew? >> the way i look at this is, you know, the gift that january 6 committee gave to us was not looking just at what happened on january 6 and seeing that the culmination of a very broad and wide conspiracy with many different people. what i'm very interested in is

admittedly that georgia case is a subset of that and is more circumscribed. there say lot of texture. it's no the that donald trump just made a phone call. he said what i'm looking for is particularly in the report all of the enablers, lindsey grahams, mark meadows, rudy giuliani and whether they're making false statements to like the president did. to change the election. and i think that is going to be -- mine it's hard to imagine that we're not going to see that. that she isn't going to have that texture and paint a picture that is akin to what we've seen in the january 6 case. just very focused on georgia. >> if she prosecuted the fake elector's plot with the fake electors as the targets and can

reassemble or re-create the architecture of the coup plot, is that a prosecution that can be adapted to other states where that was perpetrated by rudy and others? >> yeah. so, you know, that is a great question. because one of the things that lots of people including joyce said and me what we think about is why just georgia? we know this is going on in other states. and just to be clear, also, as i said this is a subset of the federal investigation. so you could end up seeing jack smith including the information that it was charged in connection with the bonnie willis indictment in a federal case. because those are -- to be of legal nerd those are separate things. can you bring a federal case and a state case and they can both go forward. and so, yes, it could be a model for other states. and you could imagine jack smith also looking at it and in a

broader context and using it as a model. >> i can imagine/hope. i'll ask you all to stick around. blaine alexander, we're grateful for your time today. thank you. when we come back, david jolly, i want to get your take on this as well as joyce's and reaction to what the january 6 lead congressional investigator said on this program about another imminent indictment in his view. donald trump by doj. i'll show it you to. don't go anywhere. doj. i'll show it you to. don't go anywhere. what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

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they're looking at what you looked at. stlent reached any conclusion other than a criminal prosecution of trum snp. >> based on the facts as i know them, that's the only conclusion that they could or should reach. now again, they may get other evidence. they may get access to people that will say things that are different. that we didn't get. i don't believe based on what we know. we didn't talk to mark meadows but all of the chief deputies. we know what happened in the room based on what cassidy and other people told us. i don't expect there is such evidence. but they have to run that process. they have to use the tools they have which we didn't have get to to the very bottom of it. they're going to do a thorough job. they'll make their decision bags based on the facts of the law. >> david jolly, how did they reach the conclusion of the prosecution of trump based on the facts as i know them, that's the only conclusion they could or should reach. it is declarative for a

committee over 18 months with this person at the helm really getting it to investigative methods and integrity and the fact pattern to say it that plainly was pretty striking to me. david jolly? >> yeah, look, i think the prosecutoral decisions for merrick garland are similar to that of bonnie willis in georgia. it is clear to a lay person as well as certainly to a prosecute that donald trump is guilty of violating the spirit of the law. we know as we discussed last week that on january 6 donald trump had laid the predicate of the big lie issue, the invitation. and he issued the charge to storm the capitol. that is seditious behavior. that is insurrection behavior. merrick garland has to decide can i bring charges against the president and make a decision based on that? i think that's why so many people are frustrated saying what's so hard now? we all know this. we saw it in front of our eyes. same decision in georgia.

we know based on the president's own word, mark meadows' own words there was a conspiracy to replace legitimate electors with fake electors. there was an effort to overturn the legitimate results in georgia. can the prosecutor bring charges under the four corners of the law? it appears so. that's why everyone is so impatient. at the end of the day, the impatience is about accountability. if can you not hold a president accountable as a sitting president for mounting an insurrection against the united states for encouraging seditious behavior, where those under und him have already been convicted. if you cannot get him on tampering with laws in georgia then what do we have? it's a question of discretion and judgment of the prosecutors. it's time for them to make a decision. >> joyce, i want to come back to a point you made about the documents cases. the national security question.

i mean the national security climate should never be divorced from the points that david jolly is making. i mean residicism is at the center of criminal justice theory and ideology and thought and not only political violence being exported from states to new mexico and san francisco but an overcoup plot overturning a country's federal leadership is being exported so far just to brazil, but we are now a national security threat when you look at the dissemination of disinformation, the permission structures for political violence, crossing state lines incentivizing it and when you look at the large-scale replication of the january 6th coup in brazil, is there not a national security imperative to deal with our own house and show that the rule of law in these

issues means something? >> one of the factors that the federal principles of prosecution tell prosecutors that they should consider after they reach a decision about whether there's sufficient evidence to charge is whether they need to because in essence there's no other entity that can hold the individual accountable. sometimes federal prosecutors might decline, for instance, if a state prosecutor could take action or if there's regulatory or administrative action and to the point you're making here, nicolle, in reality it's the federal government's job to charge the former president if the facts support violation of crime as all of us clearly think they do including my former colleague tim heaphy who is a very deliberate, careful prosecutor. he made that statement with no wiggle room. that tells me he believes it. >> joyce vance, andrew weissmann, david jolly, three of the very best people to have

these conversations with on a day like today. thank you so much for spending time with all of us. another quick break. we will be right back.

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or issues relating to the health of our democracy like voting rights, more often than not there is a big important legal angle to the story. sometimes they intersect which is why today we are thrilled to say that we are launching deadline: legal blog written by msnbc expert jordan ruben. you can see the code that will take you right to the page on your screen right now and qr code, think of the progress as an extension of what we cover here, a little more informative because it's written by actual former prosecutor. get up to speed on the latest developments of every story we cover especially the legal angles and this jordan will be with us in the next hour. he'll pull back the curtain on today's eyebrow raising comments by fani willis. fred guttenberg about be here with america's seemingly endless

clip of mass shootings. what can we do? that conversation when we come back. that's when you know, it's half-washed. downy has 7 benefits that condition and smooth fibers so clothes look newer, longer. feel the difference with downy.

this second amendment is becoming a suicide pact it feels like. i mean it's just -- that's the only question about our kids and are they going to school? what more can we do? we look at that all the time. we need half dozen bills last year and continue to find whatever loopholes we can to lead the national conversation and the data bears out.

and yet with all that evidence, no one on the other side seems to give a damn. >> hi again, it's 5:00 in new york. the second amendment is becoming a suicide pact. remarkable and provocative comment by california's governor gavin newsom. his state has seen not one, not two but three mass shootings in as many days. we covered the tragic mass shooting in monterey park on saturday. 11 people were killed with a gunman opened fire on a dance hall. people there have been celebrating the lunar knew year. last night the coastal california town of half moon bay located outside san francisco was the site of another mass shooting. seven people were killed and one was critically injured after attacks on two agricultural businesses. say all evidence points to workplace violence. the victims have yet to be identified but were described as a mix of asian and hispanic individuals. the suspect was arrested roughly two hours after the shooting at

the first location. his suv was spotted at the sheriff's substation and police were able to bring him into custody. california governor newsom described how he heard about this shooting in half moon bay. he said this, quote, at the hospital meeting with victims of a mass shooting when i get pulled away to be briefed about another shooting. this time in half moon bay. tragedy upon tragedy. and also in the san francisco bay area last night a mass shooting at an oakland gas station. one person killed and seven injured. this afternoon president biden mentioned that vice president harris will be traveling to her home state of california soon. the clip with which these mass shootings are happening in our country is astounding, unacceptable to most. we are only 24 days into the year 2023 and so far at least 39 mass shootings have already happened. that's according to the gun violence archive which classifies a mass shooting as one where four or more people were injured or killed. so far at least 69 people have

died from the mass shootings that have taken place this year. this morning democratic senator cory booker had some powerful words for his colleagues across the aisle. >> the problem we have in america is that we have a major political party that is not willing to do the common sense things that would make us safer and are content really being complicit in a status quo that makes us as a nation way out of the loop when it comes to the other industrial nations in the world that don't have this regular routine horror, they don't have a reality that has their children having more active shooter drills than fire drills. they don't have a reality where americans now kiss a family member going to a concert, going to church, going to a classroom and having in the back of their mind this horror and worry. this is a sush render to

violence and not doing your constitutional duty to protect this nation from threat, foreign and domestic. >> surrender to violence is where we begin our coverage. nbc news correspondent jake ward is live for us in half moon bay. i'm from northern california. first tell us where you are and what it's like and the latest on this latest tragedy. >> reporter: well, half moon bay, this city of 12,000 people is as i'm sure you know the place you go to get away from it all. as i stand here i'm smelling the sea on one side, there are eucalyptus trees rustle around me. that is the incredible appeal of this place. you come here to surf, to buy shrubs from the nurseries, to have lunch looking out at the water and it is part of what makes this place such a shocking setting for this kind of thing. that sort of shock when you use the word astounding, that is the right word. there is an astounding quality to how officials have been

describing what this event represented. here's how the district attorney described these events and really what makes them so unprecedented. have a listen. >> cases like this, we've never had one in this county of this many deaths at one scene. or one time. and so it was a very hectic scene and the sheriff's office did an amazing job. >> reporter: as of yesterday, the officials allege that chun li zhou who worked here came here, went into the buildings you see beyond me and killed four people gravely injuring a fifth then drove himself from here to the second scene where he killed three more people and then drove himself for some reason to a sheriff's substation where sheriffs basically came upon him and took him to the ground and took him into custody.

he will be arraigned here tomorrow. the emotions here are just horror and the horror sort of unfolds as you begin to pick away the details of this scene. for instance, 25 people lived here on the compound who worked here and their families as those people were working here so that means authorities tell us that children were present, perhaps not during the shooting but certainly would have witnessed the aftermath. they were all evacuated from here and put foo ray shelter overnight where they had to wait to find out who among their co-workers their friends, maybe even family members were among the dead. authorities now are also trying to reach the family members of the mix of hispanic and asian workers that were affected here but it is, very difficult to find them and so i think this really this place not only is seeing just the sort of statistical strangeness of this, the unprecedented nature of this isn't just in the math but in the horror of this place and that is really something we've been feeling all day here, nicolle. >> what is the, you know, what

is the feeling in the community about what people can do to support the victims and their families? >> reporter: you know, this is really the most difficult question right there. there is an emotional and tremendous outpouring of support. everyone we've spoken to wants to do the best they can but it's been very quiet environment. you know, this is -- the farm workers who were affected in this case are often, you know, from an immigrant community and that is a community that often goes to great lengths not to draw attention to itself for one reason or another and so we have not seen much in the way of vigils or, you know, any of that. it's been sort of very quiet here and horrible in that way. i was trying to sort of describe this scenario to my kids as i was going off to work today and that feeling of trying to explain to them that they somehow try to communicate that they are safe and i will be safe and yet this has happened is a thing they couldn't wrap their minds around encouldn't really either. it just feels like one of these

things as you say it is just astounding to see violence like this in a place like this or in any community in america. we're all, i think, feeling that sort of shock. >> the victims are obviously the victims of violence but the trauma is, i think, it has a ripple and it affects us all and we're so grateful to you. it has an effect on anyone covering it. we're grateful to you being our eyes and ears and it is a beautiful place. jake ward, thank you so much. joining our coverage, the person i always want to talk to and when i don't get to talk to him i quote him. fred guttenberg. his daughter jamie was killed in the parkland school shooting. he is the co-author of a new book not out yet but it's amazing "american carnage: shatter the myths that fuel gun violence." you can preorder it. fred guttenberg what is going through your mind right now? they're like physical blows now. you get the alerts on your phone

it is almost a sure thing when it's the middle of the night that it's a mass shooting now. >> and only when there's people who die because in baton rouge, louisiana, i think a day or two ago there was a mass shooting where 12 people were injured. we don't hear about it but it happened. >> true. >> so what's going through my mind is pure anger at those who lie to this country for an extended time. figuring out why we're here isn't hard. you know, nicolle, in a few weeks it will be five years since jaime was killed. when she was killed there were 300 million weapons on the streets of america. five years later we're over 400 million plus those guns and we're there because during the last administration, covid was used as a gun sales bonanza when they kept gun stores open as

essential businesses. so it's not surprising to say why are we here today? the gun industry has used the lies and politicians who have embraced these lies and i'll give you a few examples. immediately following sandy hook, their response was, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a guy is a good guy with a gun. they used sandy hook to sell weapons. we've heard over the past ten years since sandy hook, slippery slope, anything you want to do about reducing gun violence it's going to put you on a slippery slope, they said. the problem is we've been on a slippery slope because we've done nothing or we've done bad policy, more guns like i said in the past five years alone over 100 million, more ammunition, more dangerous weaponry have been put into the hands of a minority of this population and many of those end up in the

hands of people who intend harm. we've been on a slippery slope looking at what's happening this week should surprise nobody. >> fred, i think all the time about this generation of kids who as cory booker said have been through more active shooting drills than fire drills, my son one of them, aware of mass shootings happening in schools. >> yeah. >> we're raising a generation of kids that know that nowhere is -- no place is immune. there's really -- you know, church, there have been mass shootings at churches and temples, elementary schools, you know, concerts, restaurants. everywhere and i wonder what you think about a. and i know senator chris murphy is your friend and you have friends on both sides of the aisle. what do you think of the strategy that the gun lobby is so extreme, so their position is way over here on the right.

and then if you want to negotiate you have to come here, so there's never anything actually equal to absolute, you know, easier to buy a gun than fruit punch. what you get is so close to extreme you leave out the 85% of americans that want to go a whole lot more in this direction toward making the country safer. what would your sort of prescriptive analysis be of where the debate should start? >> well, first i'll just say i am thankful for people like senator murphy and the others who got legislation done a few months ago for this president who is committed to dealing with gun violence in america. but you're 100% right, nicolle. there is a segment of our political reality, you have an entire party who is just no, that's who they are, just no. and their no is based on a lie. they're not interested. they talk right to life, my daughter had a right to life.

the people killed this week had a right to life. they talk freedom. you don't have freedom from the grave. my daughter doesn't have freedom from the grave. and so here's what i would say, call them the liars that they are, stop listening to them, and if they refuse to do the right thing, do what we've done it the past three elections and fire more of them. you know, because of gerrymandering the house flipped this cycle but we also elected more gun safety people. and let's just keep doing that. you look at florida which was a nightmare in the elections and yet we elect the moscowitz and maxwell frost and dan goelman, a gun safety champion. let's keep electing more people like that because the truth is, we do not need to live this way in this country. we just don't and we can fix this. >> fred, you find hope in these

sort of hopeless and bleak moments and i always have to try to pull out of you where that is coming from and i'm just in awe of you. and i can barely keep from crying. that's your daughter behind you, right, dancing? that picture? >> it is. >> how do you -- hoe do you -- i know you do it to honor you but that is the how? how do you get up and stay optimistic? >> because every day i think of someone who i won't meet because they weren't a victim of gun violence and that keeps me going. i don't want my son who didn't die that day in the shooting to grow up in a world where he has to worry about kids he might bring into this world and the truth is, i've seen so much of the good we've done this year. you know, the legislation we

passed a few months ago is going to make a meaningful difference but it's going to take time to bend that curve. >> yeah. >> having a real, real director of the atf which we now do, steve dettelbach is a wonderful guy. it's a start but now we need to fund the atf because, i mean, i have hope from looking at things we can still do to fix this and save lives. we're not going to get rid of gun violence but we can lower the gun violence death rate and as long as there are people willing to work on that i will keep working with them. >> i guess the other thing i wanted to ask you is, you know, we have seen the force of this as a political issue and you're right. there are people who wasn't just a message this was what their candidacies were about. you see that with the overturning of roe. do you really see a future where these become sort of two central -- i know you tie it to

democracy all the time too but do you see this becoming sort of a new coalition that freedom doesn't mean that you can wield your gun if it means your daughter wasn't free to have the rest of her life? >> 100%. listen, i live in a state where a governor talks about florida as a freedom state and it's just the ultimate lie, okay. he is a liar. okay. because while he says things like that, he's also talking about passing permitless carry which will make us more dangerous and put more people in the grave. that's not a freedom state and i think smart, reasonable people who care about freedom, who care about safety, who care about choice are going to work together to be the coalition to push back against it. look at the young kids, look at the people we're electing right now and let's keep doing more of that and let's show up and vote. voting solves problems.

>> it does. it just takes a while. thanks for your perspective and wisdom and having these conversations at all. thank you from the bottom of my heart. thank you so much. >> thank you, nicolle. when we come back, a newly unearthed claim from congressman george santos that is as bizarre as it is unverified. what santos told a were zillion podcast of being the victim of an attempted assassination. that really happened and it's next. plus, kevin mccarthy hands out more plum committee assignments to more extremists as his open embrace of maga, can, friendly relationship with marjorie taylor greene came to be. we'll take a closer look at the threat, the legal peril facing the twice impooched ex-president with the author of our new idea account "deadline:

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ending deluge of really audacious lies and allegations about just about every aspect of now congressman george santos' life and resume, there is now this, last month santos went on a brazilian podcast and said that he was the victim of three different crimes, he's a young guy of the that's a lot including an assassination attempt. he says led to his home getting assigned to new york police protection. here's that sound. it was exclusively obtained by our colleagues at the rachel maddow show."

[ speaking non-english ] >> wow. now, santos has not elaborated about the alleged assassination attempt. msnbc has reached out to his office to get more information about him being the victim of an attempted murder and being assigned new york police protection outside of his home as a result of that. so far we have not heard back but we're waiting. the interview brought us this moment of exquisite irony where santos obviously comes from a

family of immigrants talks about undocumented immigrants. [ speaking non-english ] >> imagine starting a relationship with a lie. oh. joining us now democratic congressman ritchie torres of california, he along with congressman dan goldman introduced the santos act that would require candidates for congress to file additional information go their educational, military background. we covered the lawsuit you and dan goldman delivered to george santos' office and i've heard a

little bit of sort of tripping in from the republican side of the aisle that an ethics investigation is called for. do you think a real ethics investigation will be done into george santos? >> look, i'm cautiously optimistic. the good news is the house ethics committee is evenly bipartisan regardless of who is in charge so there is a fighting chance that the house ethics committee can conduct an investigation into george santos and these allegations are too serious to ignore. he's clearly a sick and social -- sociopathic man who preaccidented to be the victim of an assassination, to pretend to have a mother who died in 9/11 and have employees who died in the nightclub shooting. every word he utters should be presumed to be a lie until proven otherwise. >> he's been glyphen two committee assignments. i know they're not considered

"a" committees but i guess i'm old enough to remember when the small business committee was an important thing to republican voters, to people in this district. i imagine that's not something to stick a pathological liar on. what do you make of the handling of speaker mccarthy of someone who clearly has -- they're not issues with the truth. he has no relation to the truth. >> look, the house of representatives has become a dysfunctional place where the inmates are running the asylum and george santos now sits on the small business committee which happens to oversee the payment protection program. one of the largest programs the federal government ever enacted and a fraud like george santos cannot be trusted to root out the rampant fraud that's been found in the ppp program. he has no business being a member of congress let alone a member of any committee. he is a disgrace and his ability to govern has been crippled by complete collapse of his credibility. he has no credibility with his

constituents, no credibility with his colleagues. he's a punch line for comedians rather than a public servant for his constituents and the only path forward for him is resignation. >> it's such an important point that he's in -- he's on this committee at a moment when it couldn't be more central rooting out fraud raised as a concern by politicians by both sides of the aisle has been cited as the top priority. i guess in old -- in the old days you could sell, well, there's staff there to protect them. here's what puck news is reporting about his staff. former gaetz guy there. what could go wrong? let me read this. after the news of santos' drag queen history broke, one senior staffer in his office, vish burrra posted a story on instagram in which he and a female staffer appear to basically mock the whole situation. at once poking fun at angry

constituents, their new boss and the whole media bleep show. in one moment they laugh as a caller unleashes a profanity laced tirade about santos on speakerphone. is there some way that the office could be protected from abusing santos' constituents in that way? >> i mean, ultimately responsibility falls with house republican leadership to hold santos accountable. mr. santos is so radioactive that even the close associate of a sanctioned russian oligarch has referred to him as a con man and has cut ties completely. the only set of people who seem to remain associated with george santos is house republican leadership. kevin mccarthy needs every vote he can get and he needs george santos to remain in power so house republican leadership has no incentive at all to drain the santos swamp here in washington, d.c. >> what do you think will happen next? i mean, there are six

investigations open into him. any watcher of american politics over the last six years know they take a very long time. what kind of damage can someone like santos do in the body beyond just being on those important committees if an investigation into him, if that is the only mechanism for removing him from the body is going to take a long time? >> look, he is a fraud who keeps on defrauding and no reason to think he will stop. the only hope for dropping him out i would argue is the u.s. attorney and it could be that mr. santos' only reason to remain in office so he can maintain leverage in the event of air criminal prosecution and it's worth noting that george santos just admitted that the $500,000 leapt to his campaign did not come from himself. it was not a personal loan so he has all but admitted to breaking campaign finance law so my prediction is that his indictment, his criminal prosecution is not a question of

if it's a question of when. >> oh, wow, we'll stay on this with your help, congressman ritchie torres of new york, thanks for everything you have done to help bring to the public's attention what we learned about mr. santos. thank you. > absolutely. thank you. when we come back, kevin mccarthy's giveaway bonanza so the right far continues just as we're learning more details about how he has become bosom buddies with marjorie taylor greene. there is brand-new reporting about their alliance and we'll bring it to you after the break.

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there's a lot of really great new reporting this week about the new power alliances within the republican party. the direct result of kevin mccarthy's public flogging that desperate 15-round attempt to become the house speaker. including giving control as he promised to some of the party's most extreme sort of off the chart members of nearly everything that happens in the house of representatives. among mccarthy's nine picks were the very powerful house rules committee. republicans chip roy and ralph norman who each voted against mccarthy 11 times, you got to imagine between, right, like 11 and 12, maybe they got that. republican thomas massie who is known as a thorn in leadership's side comes as "the new york times" reports about mccarthy's

new iron-class alliance for leading maga voices in congress. marjorie taylor greene whose extremist, racist comments, mccarthy once called appalling and deeply disturbing, "the times" reports greene has taken on an outsized role as a policy adviser to kevin mccarthy, end quote. kevin mccarthy texted a friend this, quote, i will never leave that woman. i will always take care of her. that woman is marjorie taylor greene. and now in addition to two high-profile committees "the times" reports that marjorie taylor greene is also likely to be appointed to a new oversight select subcommittee to investigate the coronavirus. that's according to a source familiar with mccarthy's thinking. joining our coverage nbc news washington correspondent moderator of "washington week" is here and former maryland congresswoman donna edwards. you served in this body. i can almost see a physical reaction to reading this. it's not about which party

controls the chamber, is it? >> no, not at all. i think the most disturbing appointments are the appointments to the rules committee because generally that is a committee that leadership controls in order to control what goes on the floor and when and how. and kevin mccarthy has essentially given up that ability to move things successfully to the floor and where this will play out, i think, first is on this debt ceiling issue. you know, try to move something that is contentious and making sure that it goes intact to the floor for passage and kevin mccarthy will not have any control over that and i think these other appointments on oversight committees are really disturbing as well because it will turn into, you know, just an investigatory food fight. the alliance with marjorie taylor greene and kevin mccarthy, it did make me smile a little bit because i think it is

quite frankly a marriage made in heaven. kevin mccarthy has demonstrated he has no ideology. he doesn't have anything to fight for. marjorie taylor greene does and she takes pride in moving that conference further to the right and i think the right has really won out when it comes to kevin mccarthy. >> everything she says is right, it's also, though, marjorie taylor greene who appeared at events for extremists like mark fuentes says this represents the greatest threat of domestic extremism in our country. he just handed them the car keys >> that's exactly what he did. one of the things i think underscores who kevin mccarthy is politically, possibly even personally is the fact that i had reporting along with so many other reporters on january 6th because i was standing on the lawn that kevin mccarthy was calling the white house angrily trying to get donald trump to

stop the january 6th capitol attack and then a few weeks and months later you had kevin mccarthy going down to mar-a-lago to kiss the ring of donald trump and to me it's those two moments where he's one screaming on the phone and in some ways saying, hey, this has gone too far and reads the room and says, actually i can't get rid of trump of the i can't get rid of the idea that these are people even people that put my own life at risk these are not the people i can criticize too hashly so i have to go back to donald trump and make amends there. to me it underscores he's swung who is willing to do what needs to be done in order to further his political career. i think "the new york times" does a good job of in one line of this even though they do a good job in the article, he has little in the way of fixed political ideology. i underlined that as i was reading this article because part of it is it does underscore what kevin mccarthy is. he's not someone who has hard views or has said here's what my political ideology is, i won't be a conspiracy theorist, i won't embrace people that others

have said are saying racist things, i'm not going to embrace paul gosar who literally for people maybe don't remember he tweeted out a video where aoc was getting murdered, that's -- those are the people he's putting on these committees, people who think it's too far to remember what these people did in the first place so it underscores that kevin mccarthy has found himself in a tough situation but also found himself in a situation where he's leaning into the republican base and not setting any sort of boundaries, at least from what i can tell in my reporting to what he's willing to accept from his caucus as long as he's able to continue to hold on to power. >> donna, pick up on that. what makes him dangerous isn't the lack of ideology, it's the lack of respect for the office he holds. he has weakened the speakership forever. >> well, he's weakened the speakership but the other thing is because he doesn't really believe in anything, it's what -- that is precisely what allows him to float from one position to the other that can

be complete -- that can be polar opposites because it doesn't mean anything for him. and he doesn't view himself as a speaker of the whole house. he's decided that he will side with this faction of the republican base and that that is his pathway to power. so his ideology, it's power if he has one. >> yamiche, you mentioned bumps in the road, he gave away so many tools that past speakers have relied on, take me through what could play out in the last few months. one thing he traded away was one member of his caucus could call for his removal, right? do we think he's there for the duration? >> i mean that's going to be a cloud that will continue to hang over kevin mccarthy's head that one republican, one republican can call to a vote to take him out of office and talking to republicans who served under john boehner and paul ryan it was she's sort of threats that

kept the speakership being a place that was tense, a place that was not a place that you could get real governing done in their views, in the republican views because you had a caucus that could say, well, if we don't like what you're doing including the most hard right people i will take you out of office and make sure you don't have this job anymore. we've all seen through the 15 votes that we all sat through how much kevin mccarthy wants this job. in some ways it underscores he will try to hold on and make sure people decent do that. i think it's interesting as donna said there is a rules committee and some of these hard right members are on the rules committee. it really does say that they are going to have a lot of power when it comes to what actually makes it onto the house floor especially as you have a number of people doing things like questioning whether or not ukraine should be supported. questioning whether or not the debt ceiling should be lifted, whether the u.s. should default on its loan pays or whether or not they should be held hostage for thain other gain. these are big and scary things.

i was talking to a democrat who said he's very worried about the debt ceiling because he thinks kevin mccarthy in some ways just takes the read of the room and is constantly trying to figure out what people want rather than figuring out how to govern and push his caucus to a goal. >> it's not even what all the people want. i mean to yamiche's great reporting it's what the crazy people want. the first person that calls for his removal, that he's kept marjorie taylor greene who describes qanon as her people so happy that someone from -- there isn't a moderate wing of the congress but someone more normal is then happy with kevin mccarthy or do republicans all basically agree with this brand of governing in the extreme? >> yeah, i don't really see those republicans really challenging the leadership. what i do see, for example, there was a rift created between marjorie taylor greene and lauren boebert precisely over

her alliance with kevin mccarthy and so even the right split among itself. i don't think there's going to be anything that controls these people. there's such a narrow margin for kevin mccarthy that he will not have control of at least five at any given time and they will have different alliances that potentially could challenge his speakership. i mean, you look at somebody like tom cole who is the new chair of the rules committee who is known for working across the aisle in a very kind of moderated way, but he's essentially had to give up his power because of these new appointments to rules. i think it's going to be open season and kevin mccarthy is going to look for any out even if that means placating the most right wing extreme in his conference. >> apparently that greene/boebert fight was physical based on news accounts and went down in the bathroom so

maybe we'll see hall monitors. yamiche alcindor, thanks. decisions are imminent. that's what the fulton county district attorney fani willis told the judge who is deciding whether to release a grand jury report on the twice impeached former president's attempts to steal the election. ♪ ♪

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so, look, all i want to do is this, i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. it's a big problem in georgia, and it's not a problem that's going away. i mean, you know, it's not a problem that's going away. >> it is definitely not a problem that is going away any time soon for the twice impeached disgraced ex-president as a judge in fulton county, georgia, today heard arguments about whether or not to release a grand jury report based on that now infamous phone call trump made. as jordan rubin writes in "deadline: legal blog," district attorney fani willis' arguments to keep it secret is, quote, a little more than a hint that the d.a.'s imminent decision could include criminal charges against multiple people. the "deadline: legal blog"

launches today. you can read it by scanning the qr code right there on your screen and we are thrilled to get to introduce the blog's author, jordan rubin, a former prosecutor for the manhattan district attorney's office and former legal reporter for bloomberg law. you are now in-house counsel to the anchor with a million questions every day. thanks for joining the team and being here today. >> great to be here, thanks, nicolle. >> you could try to decipher my burning questions about what district attorney fani willis meant by protecting basically the prerogatives of defendants. what was she talking about? >> right, so i don't think it means she's going soft on defendants all of a sudden and is worried about them personally, what she's worried about building off of something joyce said earlier, she's worried about securing her convictions on appeal if she brings charges and secures those convictions and so she wants to make sure she has an airtight case and she doesn't want the

report to get out in front of her case. so she's being very cautious in wanting to control the flow of information and that seems to be her concern tad. >> she also used the word imminent. i put blayne alexander on the spot because she has covered the d.a. very closely and for a long time. what does imminent mean if it has any sort of legal context? >> it doesn't. it really just means that something is going to happen, but i think that's the significance. that she said it's going to be imminent and that she referenced potential multiple defendants. and now really all eyes are on her to defendants, and now really all eyes are on her to take this through a regular grand jury and actually bring charges unlike the special grand jury which couldn't bring those charges. >> when you look at how opaque and necessarily so a criminal investigation is compared to what we all watched on our tv screens, the january 6th select committee investigation, in what

way should we be bracing ourselves for this to be very different, albeit with a similar fact set. >> right, so it's the same question -- what's going to happen and when, and when you talk about january 6th, that's an interesting comparison, because that even came up at the hearing today. the judge asking, well, this january 6th information is out in the public. why not let this georgia information out in the public, too. as we know there's some overlap there. and so really it's a lot of the same fact pattern. it's the same waiting game, and it's a question of whether or not we're going to have this race to the courthouse of which prosecutor is going to be indicting first, whether it's in georgia, whether it's the feds whether it's new york potentially. so there are going to be different laws at play, but it's really the same fact nucleus, especially when you're talking about the january 6th committee and that investigation, this is really a part of that, at least part of the georgia investigation is. >> do you have any theories or sort of comprehension or i guess

i should a way to help us understand why this is out ahead of doj? >> let me say something interesting about that. i don't know if we know that she is. we saw her in court today . we don't see jack smith in court every day, but i think it could be a potential mistake to interpret that lack of action yet as a judgment of where on the spectrum the doj investigation is. it's certainly possible that fonny willis is much further ahead, but i don't know that we can count the doj investigations, plural, out just yet. >> that's a very hopeful note to end on. you can read jordan answer excellent legal analysis on all the top legal stories of the day on our deadline legal blog. just scan the qr code on our screen. welcome to the family.

it's happy, occasionally dysfunctional. we're glad you're here, and thank you for spending time with us today. >> thanks, nicolle. >> quick break for us. we'll be right back. for us. we'll be right back. a medicine specifically made for heart failure. entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. heart failure can change the structure of your heart, so it may not work as well. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. and just imagine where a healthier heart could take you. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure.

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