higher levels of poverty than we should, then pure countries. do we have high levels of inequality. our social safety net, the amount of risk that people face, personally, to weather different gun on the conditions is worse than a lot of places. in many ways, it's like, you're on your own and a lot of ways in the american economy in ways that shouldn't be the case. in the broad macroeconomic sense, i continue to be hopeful that we might just come out of this without the huge crash that some were predicting in this report. it's a good indicator of that. betsey stevenson, always good to have you on the program, thank. you >> great to talk to you. >> that is all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. r tonight starts right now. >> chris, it's hard to speak broadly about the economy when inequality is so piercing, right, to give one big assessment about how it feels to be financially secure in this country when -- >> that's the weird thing about the economy. look at the macro economics, but it feels different to be in

it because we put so much on the onus of individual shoulders. and the broad aggregate sense, it's way better than i feared it would be. >> we will take that statement and run with it. thank you, my friend. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. one of the many revelations to come out of the january six committee hearings was trump attorney general bill barr described, in his own words, how he pushed back against trump's claims of election fraud. he called those claims bogus, crazy stuff, and, most incuriously, complete bias. despite the heroic headlines generated by barr's testimony, it is a good point to remember that barr did not say anything publicly debunking those same claims of election fraud until december 1st, which was nearly a month after the 2020 election. in fact, before his post trump rehabilitation tour, this was the bill barr we knew. >> what happened to the president in the 2016 election,

and throughout the first two years of his administration, was a point. it was a grave injustice, and it was unprecedented in american history. the law enforcement and intelligence apparatus of this country who are involved in advancing a false and utterly baseless russian collusion narrative against the president. the proper investigative and prosecuted standards of the department of justice were abused, in my view, in order to reach a particular result. the durham investigation is trying to get to the bottom of what happened. i think spying on a political campaign as a big deal. i think there is spying that occurred, i think spying did occur, yes. >> my own view is that the evidence shows we're not dealing with just slap mistakes,

or on the wrist and then sloppiness. there's something far more troubling they go back and then here. we're going to get to the bottom of 34 years will be talking about it. i think what happened to him this all again. >> was one of the which is greatest exactly what we travesties in american see, when they make history. >> that is the bill barr we knew for the years of the trump administration. trump's attorney general spent the vast majority of his time as the head of the justice department, doing absolutely everything he could to cast doubt on the investigations into trump. he argued that doj and fbi institutions that he oversaw were somehow part of a deep state plot to overthrow president trump. to piece trump in 2019, barr appointed john durham, a career justice department prosecutor, to investigate the origins and intelligence committees investigation into trump and his 2016 campaign dealings with russia. right before the 2020 election, barr would promote durham to special counsel, protecting his work from any future doj's grasp. as barr promised, special counsel john durham did get to the bottom of it, but after

nearly four years of investigating, it appears as though there was nothing at the bottom. john durham lost the two key cases he brought to trial. they both ended in acquittals. the one guilty plea durham did secure ended with no present time. despite what donald trump and bill barr would like you to believe, john durham, it seems, found no evidence of what bill barr had called one of the greatest travesties in american history. it undermines the very notion that there was a travesty to begin with. today, in a bombshell piece from an intrepid group of reporters at the new york times, we are learning new details about bill barr and john durham's efforts to craft a counter narrative that trump was, in fact, a victim of a deep state plot. here's the headline. quote, barr pressed durham to find flaws in the russia investigation. it didn't go well. the times reports that barr and durham would often meet weekly in barr's office together and drink scotch. as the times reports, john durham soon became a true believer, i wouldn't scotch it, was in the mold of bill barr,

quote, as he was drawn into barr's personal orbit, durham came to embrace that particular attorney generals intense feelings about the russia investigation. probably the most explosive revelation in the times piece is this, while on a foreign trip to europe, barr and durham received a credible tip linking donald trump to suspected financial crimes rather than assign it to a different prosecutor, perhaps someone less inclined to drink scotch with him, barr told durham to investigate it himself. quote, mr. durham never filed charges, and it remains unclear what level of an investigation it was, what steps he, took what he learned, and whether anyone at the white house ever found out. the extraordinary fact durham opened a criminal investigation that included scrutinizing trump has remained secret. the investigator who was supposed to be investigating, excuse the rough prince, the investigators, john durham, open a criminal inquiry into than president donald trump.

no one knows what came of it. instead, the report dives into just how committed bill barr was to making sure the durham probe uncovered something as long as it seems that something didn't target president trump. the times reports that, in one meeting, barr, put, repeating a sexual vulgarity, warned that if the nsa wronged him by not doing all it could to help durham, barr would do the same to the agency. i can't say that sexual -- on this program, but you could get the idea. months out from the election, and with no sign of imminent action from john durham, trump began putting public pressure on the men through tv interviews and fox news. here was the headline out of one trump fox news interview in august, quote, trump is down the gauntlet for barr and durham probe, greatest attorney general, or average guy. there you have. it we also learned from the times that when barr and durham could not find anything regarding abuse by the intelligence community in opening the trump russia investigation, then attorney general barr and durham turned

their sights to old faithful, a hillary clinton conspiracy. in other words, when their probe turned up nothing, when durham came up empty handed, barr and durham chased down a new hypothesis. hillary clinton and her campaign had colluded with the government to push a trump russia conspiracy, because when all else fails, there is always the republican party's number one enemy, hillary clinton. quote, by summer 2020, with election day approaching, mr. barr pressed mr. durham to dropped a potential interim report centered on the clinton campaign, and fbi gullibility, or willful blindness. while durham never ended up releasing this report, the sheer desperation by the attorney general to give trump a hail mary in the months before the election is astonishing. it became clear in the months leading up to the election that there was absolutely no evidence of a deep state conspiracy against donald trump. what did bill barr do? quote, by summer 2020, it was clear that the hunt for

evidence supporting mr. barr's hunch about intelligence abuses had failed. but barr waited until after the 2020 election to publicly concede that there had turned out to be no such sign of foreign government activity, and with the cia had stayed in its lane after all. i am so pleased to be joined by former fbi general counsel and senior member of robert mueller's special counsel team that investigated the russian interference in the 2016 election, the great andrew weissmann. thanks for being here tonight. >> great to be here. >> i had to -- i mean, just pick my jaw up off the floor after reading this piece. what was your initial reaction to this? >> first, i reacted to it in terms of the journalism. this is the a plus team at the new york times. if people had not rhetoric, they really need to. it's beautifully sourced, and beautifully written. in no if it is this team, they will have kicked all of the tires.

it was my first reaction. i wasn't surprised to read about barr. i come partly lived through his actions, and we were the effectiveness of his actions. that didn't surprise me. it was, to me, more of the same on that. i was surprised by the various revelations, the fact there are not one but three prosecutors who resigned, the reasons for their resignations, what you surmised, but did not know, and that as you pointed out, the italy piece was beyond shocking. this sort of leaving it out there that this was really wrongdoing being investigated, related to the fbi, when it was actually donald trump, and to give it to durham, with no sort of public disclosure about this, it's just a sign of, you know, with house republicans calling the weaponization of the department of justice. are they going to look at this? this entire article is exhibit

a to how the department of justice was weaponized by bill barr and donald trump, and they saw no separation between the political sphere and the department of justice. whatever you could say about merrick garland, that is not his fault. he is independent. so, this is a really good example of exactly what could go wrong when the department of justice is weaponized, which is something that happened in the prior administration. there is no evidence that it is happening now. >> to go back to what you're talking about, for those who don't recall, there was a moment when it became clear there was a criminal investigation happening in the context of this durham probe. as we find out today in the new york times, the criminal investigation wasn't into the intelligence community, or agents, it was into donald trump. yet, when the news broke about the criminal aspect of all of this, most people thought that meant there had been wrongdoing at one of the agencies.

bill barr chose to not clear that up. >> absolutely. because we all knew what the purview was for john durham, that if john durham was looking at, and you knew it had to be within that scope. he did nothing to correct that. do you really sit here, thinking john durham and bill barr did a thorough assessment of that? it's not like they looked for it. this is the italian government, according to the reporting, that gave them this tip. which was, apparently, so convincing, that they couldn't ignore it. does any one really think that this was investigated thoroughly? when i was at the mueller investigation, we would have loved to have had information -- >> you're, like i know some investigators who would use that! >> exactly. >> are we are going to find -- first of all, this -- the durham probe is not over yet, are we ever going to find out what that criminal investigation was? is there someone else at the doj who could take it over? given the fact these guys were

so reluctant to do anything that was damaging to trump, the fact that they felt it was necessary to investigate this, just that it's something fairly significant in the way of criminal wrongdoing. >> yeah, so, it doesn't fit with any of this, of the multiple special counsels that we currently have. stay tuned. there could be more. right now, it doesn't fit within that purview of what jack smith has, or rob her. you could imagine that, with this reporting, that merrick garland, or lisa monaco, they're going to be curious if they don't know already. there's a good chance they don't because, you know john durham would've had to have told them about this and laid it all the facts. maybe he did. if he didn't, they're going to look at this and decide whether it is something that needs to be pursued, and whether these, for instance, the scope of what jack smith is supposed to look at gets folded into that. >> it's the danger of appointing a special counsel, right?

you seem sanguine about far and the politicization of the doj under his stewardship. i was still shocked by it. you know, it was out there to be seen, but the idea he's back there, drinking scotch with john durham, and the atmosphere becomes poisonous and partisan enough that prosecutors are leaving the office. you've been on the inside of an investigation. what does it take to get people to resign in fury like that? >> by the way, i think my view of bill barr, the reason i wasn't shocked, is that i may be starting at a low point that this confirmatory. >> yes, you lived a different experience than i did. >> exactly, i lived through that month where there was a public letter reporting to the summary of the mueller report which we internally knew. it was completely false, and misleading to the american public, and having to wait for the report to come out, knowing

what bill barr was up to, and, so, that one piece. to resign the way that at least two, possibly three people dead is huge. there has to be something that you find so, sort of, unpalatable, in terms of ethics, that you are going to resign. that is, in fact, what the reporting is, with respect to the number two. somebody who is very close to john durham, nor addenda he, resigned, and, according to the reporting, issued a formal written statement to the group about what was improper about what was going on, and how they should not be issuing this sort of interim report to play politics at bill bars and donald trump's request. the second was, before they brought charges against a, sort of, clinton affiliated lawyer, two of the prosecutors said

evidence is way too thin, and this wouldn't have been brought against anyone else. the second part of what a prosecutor has to do, which is even if there is the appropriate evidence, it's not that can we bring a case, it's should we bring it? they had objectives to both prongs. that is really significant. i mean, you shouldn't have that kind of dissension -- >> in the ranks. >> in the ranks. i have never experienced that, where something is happening that is that inappropriate. >> when you talk about -- we talk about the various ways in which barr was trying to undermine the good investigative work that was done at the department. there was an inspector general's report that was going to come out and, basically, it would say the agencies did nothing wrong. it was good reason to investigate the trump - russia ties. barr effectively gets out in front of it, minutes before the inspector general's report comes out, basically saying all clear for the agencies, they did nothing wrong here.

barr preempt set with his own announcement. that was a very eerie echo to the thing that happened to you at the mueller report, right, before we get the report, barr is out there, preemptively undermining the work that's been done, and suggesting that something wrong, something wicked this way. comes >> right. with no evidence. also, so, that was quintessential bar for everything that is bad about him. i loved your opening, because it reminds people the new bar is not the new bar, he still the old barr. >> he still bill barr. >> exactly. that was the first time john durham had lost his way. if you remember, he issues a statement also saying, well, i know more than the inspector general. i disagree with him. that is not done. if you are doing an investigation, you either bring a charge, or you don't. it turns out --

it came out on the minor issue, it's something i know for my prior job, when you could open a preliminary investigation, versus an assessment, or a full, that's not something john durham knows anything about, it's not in his wheelhouse, it's an fbi internal rule. that was not what he fronted, it's not what he told the public. he made it sound like you really can't trust the inspector general because i know more. that's when, i think, all of us at the department, and people who graduated from the department that, you know what? there's a problem, because john durham has really changed his reputation for being, sort of, a career guy, a straight shooter, something has happened. he has lost his way, and that was the first sign of it. >> i would love to know what the scotch was. was it mcallen? it was something good, because this is someone who really seemed to have a personality

lovato me in the course of his interactions with bill barr who did inexcusable things to the integrity, or the impression of the integrity of our intelligence agencies. >> absolutely. >> andrew, such a pleasure to have you on. i am sorry that you had to go through what you've had to go through, and i'm sure this is triggering, in some fashion. >> it is. >> it's so great to talk with you, especially, about, it in this amazing reporting from the new york times. thanks for your time, as always. andrew weissmann, former fbi general councils, great to see you as always. we have a lot more to talk about tonight, including all the concessions kevin mccarthy made in order to get the house speaker's gavel. it has started to backfire. tomorrow, the republican party needs to pick their next chair. what that means for the current de facto leader of the grand old party. that's next. at's next.

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that during his four years in office, donald trump effectively took control of the republican party. perhaps nowhere was that takeover more apparent than at the republican national committee, be institutional core of the national gop. after trump took office, trump loyalists effectively took over the rnc. a staunch trump ally, mcdaniel, became head of the party after trump top former rnc chair to be his chief of staff. trump loyalists began to fill

open seats on the committee, and key trump allies became the party's new finance chairs in charge of the parties national fundraising. that led to embarrassing headlines for the party when, one by one, those trump backed financed years became embroiled in their own scandals, ranging from allegations from rampant sexual misconduct to foreign corruption schemes. if you don't know what i'm talking about, google steve winner elliott broidy. throughout those scandals, the rnc remained, effectively, an extension of trump world, promoting trump's business, and featuring him and fundraising emails, and in 2020, the rnc spent $300,000 of the donor's money buying copies of donald trump jr.'s book. trump even involved the aren't seen as fake electors scheme, to try and overturn the 2020 election. now, that cozy relationship between trump and the national republican party may be coming to an end. according to the new york times, a member of the rnc, some of whom were noted trump backers, those numbers are now expressing doubts about backing

trump again in 2024. the new york times called, emails, or text at all 168 rnc members, just four of them offered in unabashed endorsement of mr. trump's 2024 campaign. 20 said the former president should not be the party's nominee. an additional 35 said they would like to see a big primary field or declined to stake their position on mr. trump, and other major did not respond to messages. new phone, who this? the move away from trump comes as the party is being roiled by an internal battle between is trump supporting, geronimo downhill, and the conservative challenger named harvey dylan. tomorrow, the rnc will hold an election for its chairmanship and though mcdaniel is expected to win that election and remain in her current role, she's facing surprisingly strong challenge from her meet dylan who managed to earn the backing of leading movement conservatives like matt gates and tucker carlson. just today, dhillon picked up her most important north medina. >> i think we need a change, i

think we need to get new blood in the rnc. i like what dhillon has said about getting the rnc out of d.c.. i think it's going to be very difficult to energize people to want to give money, to want to volunteer their time with the rnc, if they don't see a change in direction. >> joining us, now mike murphy, republican strategist and co host of the podcast hacks on tap. mike, really no one better to talk to you about this interparty conflagration then you. what do you think of -- as the rnc battle a proxy battle from the soul of the republican party? if so, do you see any alarm bells, truly ringing alarm bells, for the former president, donald trump? s, for the>> well, yeah, i meank the new york times story today reflected with a lot of us in the party worlds here, which is tremendous frustration, and losing. even people that trump put on

the committee, you know, we are doing worse than the washington generals, the team that is paid to lose to the globetrotters. there is frustration. what you are seeing in the rnc race is, kind of, the trump guard on the defense about an election that trump and his acolytes helped blow. you know ronna romney changed to mcdaniel, because mitt became -- really on the defensive. now harmeet dhillon is saying these clowns can't win an election. there's not a lot of evidence she knows how to either. her coalition is interesting. it's both the hardest core of the rnc, and some of the pragmatic party regulators who just want to get ronna mcdaniel out of there because they think it's keystone cove city. ronna mcdaniel is favored, and the rnc is a very inside election, only 170 votes, three

from each state, and another 18. that is the official. they don't like outsiders. as you saw in the new york times, they want a change. so, you know, it's not impossible that harmeet upsets this thing, but it would be a shocker. now, desantis has made it a proxy battle in a smaller way between him and trump. i can't figure out the smart move for him here. now, if ronna, who starts with more support, is able to hang on, that is a win for trump at a time when his new york times showed us the rnc, a bunch of those members that used to be hard-core trump all the way, are now looking for something new. >> what i don't get, and i mean, i don't -- there is a lot of reporting on this, about the way in which ronna mcdaniel -- romney, i've got to say romney, i know she wants me to, ronna mcdaniel is being blamed for the parties losses, the hill says some republicans called for mcdaniel to step down as the party was unable to win the house in 2018, lost the senate

and presidency in 2020, and was unable to flip the senate last november. i had to last because, like, do you know why the party lost? it's not because of ronna romney mcdaniel. it's because the party has been laid off a cliff by donald trump, yet no one seems to understand that. the fact that harmeet dhillon can get together an unlikely band of moderates, and hard-core conservatives is evidence that nobody is thinking about the substantive issues of republicanism at this stage in the game. they're talking about new pizza, new pizza, and changing the box. they need to change the actual pizza. i don't know why i'm using that metaphor, but i think it is appropriate at this moment. do you think, i -- mean >> no, you are right. >> go ahead, mike. >> no, no, they're fighting over that can while the dogs won't get near the dog food. so, ronna takes a lot of heat for the failed thing, but she's a rubberstamp for trump. buying $300,000 of donald trump

jr.'s book, you know, i'd rather do a weekend at guantánamo than have to read that thing, and a little low blowing pretty money, where we are getting outspent in some places on that. it is the -- she is catching the blame for being a trump right hand, and because harmeet can say i am new and better, and she is dodging the question, that's a good message, but she doesn't have the answer either. she is in the kari lake business. you know, the presidential primaries that will find the soul of the republican party. this is a sideshow, but not an important one because the organization is powerful and important. ganizati>> you bring up the pri. it says we have reporting that new hampshire and south carolina people still very much on the fence when it comes to donald trump. do you think desantis -- does he have a play to make here, substantively, really, honestly? you know, trump may be off putting to a lot of people, but he is an incredibly dynamic candidate that doesn't have a lot of staying power. how endangered do you think he is in terms of his titular role

at the top of the party? >> you could never underestimate trump, but if you ask republicans, are you favorable of trump? 85% of them, which maybe 80 now, slipped a little, great president, wonderful, still my red hat. u.s., you ask those people if you want trump to be the president next time, it drops to 40, 45, half run away as fast as they can. so, there's an opening for desantis. on paper, he has a lot going on, and place the culture war piano well. that said, it is early. running for president is like going through 500 car washes. desantis has been through to croatia's. i don't know if he has the long term legs, but he is the strongest position guy now in the early moves, and he is the one that, you know, activists are starting to take the first hard look at. he is the anti trump right now. we have a long time to go, no shortage of republicans who, private, they want to take out trump and run for president. >> 500 car washes, we are only two down, that's a lot of car

washes, mike murphy. always good to see you, my friend. republican strategist and co host of the podcast, hacks on tap. thank you for your time tonight, mike. we have much more to come tonight, including why this dummy hand grenade may be the perfect metaphor for kevin mccarthy's republican led congress. stay with us. with us

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is difficult to watch, and the pattern here is even more difficult to live with. on april 4th, 2015, in north charleston, south carolina, he was driving with a broken taillight. when an officer stopped him for that traffic infraction, he ran into a grassy lot. the officer began chasing him on foot before firing a taser. when he continued to flee, the officer filed eight shots at is back. one is limp body fell to the, ground the officer yelled, put your hands behind your back. he died from those gunshots. his name was walter scott, and he was 50 years old. on july 10th, 2015, in waller county, texas, he was on his way to the garage door, when police pulled over for failing to signal a lane change. when she refused an officer's request to put out her cigarette, the officer reached

into her car and threatened to yank are out. when she began recording the altercation, the officer pulled out his taser and said, this. >> get out of the car. i will light you up. get out! now! >> wow. >> get out of the car. >> failure to signal, all this were a failure to signal. >> get over there. >> he then through her to the ground with her voice cracking, she told them she had epilepsy, and her head had hit the ground. he responded, good. they arrested her and took her to the wall a county jail. days later, when she was found dead in her cell, her death was ruled a suicide. her family disputed that. her name was sandra bland. she was 28 years old. on april 11th, 2021, brooklyn center, minnesota, he was pulled over for an expired registration tags. the officers conducted the stop tried to detain him -- outstanding warrant. when he tried to step back into his car, officers tasseled with

him. one officer warned she would use her taser, and fired a bullet into his chest. his car took off, crashed, and he was pronounced dead at the scene. his name was dante wright. he was 20 years old. this kind of fatal traffic stop has happened all across the country, over and over again. according to the nonprofit research group, mapping police violence, police kill about 1100 people each year. 10% of those deaths involve traffic stops, and they disproportionately involve black drivers. the lives of black drivers are so frequently threatened during these stops, that when parents of black children teach their kids how to drive, they try to teach them how to survive. they give them the top, what to do if your pulled over, what to do if police get aggressive, how to talk to the police said that you come home alive at the end of the day. parents must educate their children on how to survive the threat of state sanctioned violence. despite that preparation, this

fatal use of force against black people keeps happening. it happened again on january 7th, in memphis, tennessee. he was pulled over on suspicion of reckless driving. five officers approached his car where officials say a confrontation occurred, and pepper spray was used. when he ran away, police followed him. police say there was another confrontation when they tried to arrest him. at that point, he was injured, and complained of shortness of breath. an ambulance took him to the hospital. the family took this photo of him, with blood on his face, apparently unconscious, with a swollen i. he died on january 10th, just yards away from his mother's home. an autopsy found that he suffered extensive bleeding, caused by a severe beating. his name was tyre nichols, he was 29 years old. in this case, there is no video, yet. today, six days after the five officers who stopped nichols

that night were filed, those officers were arrested and charged with second degree murder, aggravated assault, aggravated kidnapping, and for other charges. an attorney for two of the officers says they will plead not guilty. all five former officers are black, and all five are agents of the state who targeted and killed a black motorist. the shelby county district attorney added this during a press conference, announcing the charges. press conference, announcing the charges. >> while each of the five individuals played a different role in the incident in question, the actions of all of them resulted in the death of tyre nichols, and they are all responsible. nothing we do today, or did today, precludes the addition of any further charges. >> the dea announced that footage from the traffic stop will be released tomorrow night at 6 pm. when tyree nichols mother watched the footage on monday, she was not able to finish it.

the director of the tennessee bureau of investigation and the memphis county police chief described what appears in the video this way. >> i am sickened by what i saw. what we've learned through our extensive and thorough investigation, i have seen the video, and as they stated, you will, to. in a word, it is absolutely appalling. >> this incident was heinous, reckless, and inhumane. in the vein of transparency, when the video is released in the coming days, you will see this for yourselves. i expect you to feel what the nichols family feels. i expect you to feel outrage in the disregard of basic human rights. >> officials are bracing for protests as the country awaits the release of this video, even fully activating local police departments in some places. the nichols family, and elected officials, local leaders, and

even president biden, are urging the country to protest peacefully after the footage is released. for families in memphis, and across the country, this story, this pattern, this violence is personal. millions of people live in fear that the next time they or their child, or their partner, is driving to the grocery store, or driving with a broken taillight, or in a hurry, we might wind up saying their names as well. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together can help you make smarter decisions. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected.

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the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you

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republican congressman from florida, where emails batters fellow house members grenades. along with a literal grenade was a letter explaining the grenade significance in case, for some reason you didn't immediately enter brett being handed they're ghanaian right way. >> welcoming you to a mission oriented congress. i'm eager to get to work for the american people. i look forward to working with you to deliver on this commitment. i'm honored to be a part of the armed services and foreign affairs committees. and that, spirit it's -- made front i'm can i team grenade launcher. these are manufactured in the sunshine state, first up in the vietnam war. let's come together and get to work on behalf of our constituents. >> and then at the very bottom of the letter there was not about how the grenades were inert. maybe put that part first next time. >> this was a publicity stunt, but also perfect metaphor for

house republicans right now. they keep getting really close blowing each other up and their entire party, figuratively speaking of course. today marks a week since the u.s. government had its debt limit. the treasury department said it continues creative accounting to keep the government running until some around early june. but after, that the government can default on the debt potentially through the entire global economy into chaos. of course the only thing stopping the u.s. from raising the debt limit and avoiding all that is have republicans in their fifth grenades. speaker kevin mccarthy has been incredibly upfront they're losing this to their advantage and holding them hostage until they get what they want. republicans have done that before, but the senators one key difference. republicans don't know what they, want but they know that they will fight like hell to get it. representative marjorie taylor greene so there is to be cuts for her to agree to a race nadal. a but when asked what should be,

kochi replied quote i haven't really formulated inexact list. joining us now is brandon buck former senior adviser to republican speaker paul ryan and john boehner. brandon, thank you for being here. i'm sorry that every time i speak with you it seems to be like a crisis moment for the republican party. but i know that there is a lot of comparison. it's not that you are creating, it but you are part of the negotiations. this time it feels different. not just because it wasn't a landscape, dan pfeiffer says in the political article today, john boehner may have been willing to put more of his but -- i'm paraphrasing, but on the line. he did intellectually and subsequently siwa default was terrible. i'm not sure that mccarthy understands that. mccarthy cares and will value

this over his own job i don't necessarily agree with it entirely i think the difference here is in 2011, you are covering. this i think appreciated at we all confidence now that john boehner was not gonna let something really bad happened. i don't think kevin mccarthy wants something really bad to happen. i think he knows really bad if we went over the limit. here but what is dealing with is just so much further to the right than what we dealt with. we were very conservative in 2011, don't get me wrong. it's a cast of characters right now who think their job is to blow things up. they think they're there to have chaos. you outlined this really well, normally formulated their view of what needs to be done here. we set a standard framework. we communicated for really long time about what we were trying to accomplish. it feels like they rolled out a bed, hold hostage development

and didn't communicate with anybody, themselves with a trying to do or get out of this. this is really serious stuff. i think maybe more deliberate what they're trying to do. they need to be more reasonable of what they're trying to accomplish. it seems like all their leverage comes from the -- might be crazy enough to go over the development and think that is the leverage that they need. it's a scary place to be. i don't know how they with solve it. >> i appreciate your defensive mccarthy's appreciation. the going over the cliff is not something that he wants. but as you can do anything from preventing us to do than? that really rescues drop? there are democrats. there is a way to do this that doesn't create global, financial calamity. what endanger kevin mccarthy's far right-wing with this caucus. as of right, now what we saw on the speakers fight. it feels like he will do anything to keep ahold of that

gavel. it is impossible to imagine john boehner taking -- going to the speakers, gaveled something kevin mccarthy did. >> totally fair question, a real possibility that he has to face the choice, the question. bring a bell. face the rapid over the limit. there is incredible political pressure. i don't know how we're gonna get, that i don't know what it would look like. but there is gonna be that moment. it's in june into library has to make that decision. it may cost him a motion to vacate. he may, survived a make him out. but i do think that there is a very real possibility that those the stakes were dealing with. i think that kevin mccarthy is probably -- i don't think he's willing to risk of economic catastrophe for his job. i really don't think that. >> i've won last one for you brandon. mitch mcconnell was seen in a

bipartisan event with joe biden as that kevin mccarthy was having the speakers vote debacle. and how much mcconnell's wife as out of the statement basically criticizing president trump about is racist insults. >> when i was young people were deliberately misspelled my name. asian americans have worked hard to change this. trump doesn't seem to understand that. it says a whole lot more about trump then it says about asian americans. >> this is the wife of the minority leader. this is someone who trump has a rocket relationship with, publicly. do you think it is indicative of the way that mcconnell himself manage future negotiations. that his wife is coming, out leveling pretty strong criticism against a man that kevin mccarthy is still pledging allegiance to? >> yeah, i think this is gonna be really fascinating dynamic. i'm glad that she said that. mitch mcconnell has become a

master of expressing his disdain for donald trump that are actually saying's name referencing him directly. that will come to a head. very soon we will decide who the nominee for the republican party is. much mcconnell's gonna come sort of come protection with that. imagine raising the debt limit and donald trump is going to war with him. think of some pretty open warfare here. i don't think that was an accident. i expect a lot more of that confrontation with the next couple of years. >> aren't you glad you aren't there anymore. >> former senior adviser, john boehner thinks always for your time brennan. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back family is just very important.

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a quick note of domicile promotion. you can catch me later tonight in the time space continuum checking nbc seth myers. i will be his guest on late night recess myers at 12:35 am eastern on nbc. i will see you again here in the set or night. it's time for the last word lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening, i'm in the south up on the covid testing floor. >> i've talked to five people today who said, i always see him on the covid testing for. >> we can report america, test