and this is the perfect time to join them... see how easy it is to save hundreds a year on your wireless bill over t-mobile, verizon, and at&t talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today. just look around. this digital age we're living in, it's pretty unbelievable. problem is, not everyone's fully living in it. nobody should have to take a class or fill out a medical form on public wifi with a screen the size of your hand. home internet shouldn't be a luxury. everyone should have it and now a lot more people can. so let's go. the digital age is waiting. good evening. we're in los angeles tonight bringing you a special edition of "the reidout" focusing on two examples of the epidemic of

violence in the united states. and no, this time not mass shooting, which we talk about so often on this show. we're talking about the kind of person to person violence and police violence that we also cannot seem to get free of in the united states. just hours after the release of body cam footage showing an intruder attacking former house speaker nancy pelosi's husband, paul pelosi, with a hammer in the couple's home late last year, an outgrowth of the right wing extremism and political violence that has become all too familiar. in this hour, the nation is bracing for the release of the video showing memphis police officers beating 29-year-old tyre nichols for three straight minutes, ultimately resulting in his death. the five officers involved have been fired, and are facing second degree murder charges. ben crump, one of the attorneys for the nichols family, said tyre's last words in the video footage were gut wrenching screams for his mom. tyre's mother addressed that

horrific moment today. >> for a mother to know that their child was calling them in their need, and i wasn't there for him, do you know how i feel right now? because i wasn't there for my son. i want to say to the five police officers that murdered my son, you also disgraced your own families when you did this. but you know what, i'm going to pray for you and your families because at the end of the day, this shouldn't have happened. i will always know that i will always be with him, because i told everyone he has a tattoo of my name on his arm. my son loved me to death. and i loved him to death. >> joining me now from memphis is nbc news correspondent

antonia hylton. look, i have been getting texts all day from people saying they're not sure that they even want to see this and they're worried about it and have incredible anxiety about it. i can only imagine the amount of anxiety people are feeling in memphis tonight. >> it's really heavy here, joy. people that i have been talking to are having the same conversations. many people have told me they're not planning to watch it or if they do, they're only going to watch a very short portion of it. we have just received about an hour's worth of footage. in fact, i received a copy of the videos. it's broken up into multiple parts. just a few minutes before 6:00 p.m. local time. i only had time to watch the very beginning. and what i can tell people who are going to watch it tonight is, the interaction goes from zero to 100 immediately. you don't see any evidence of tyre nichols committing any kind

of driving infraction or crime. it's very hard to understand what's precipitating. and the moment the officers are outside of the car, they are immediately aggressive with tyre nichols. weapons are drawn. he ends up on the ground very quickly. and i had to stop watching at the point at which he started to flee, so i have not watched what we have heard most people describe as the three minutes of intense beating yet, but joy, it is a lot. >> it is. and i think everyone understands why, because this is a human being. and so, you know, we do have the video now, and antonia, thank you very much. i'm going to thank you and then let you all know we also have the video now. antonia mentioned she watched a piece of it. first, i want to say something first. i think this is important. number one, we're going to show you this video because you pay

for the police. the police work for the public. they work for you, if you're in memphis, they work for you. they're supposed to protect and serve you. your tax dollars pay their salaries and union benefits. they are public servants in the most basic sense of the word. when they do something that seems to violate in every way the idea of protection and service, the public that pays them has a right to know what they're doing. we have a right to public disclosure about what they do. but i want to really emphasize, and i think this is very important to understand that to watch this is not for the purposes of prurience. americans watch a lot of violence. we watch a lot of violence tv shows, a lot of violent films and we watch them and sometimes get numb to them. this is somebody's child. this is a mom and dad's son. this is somebody's dad. this is somebody's friend and brother and cousin. and we're going to show you this video with the warning that it is violent. but it also is a depiction of

the kind of police violence that normally happens outside your view, and the speed with which you're seeing this is unusual. it's not the way the normally goes down when police are involved in killing someone. so it's all unusual. these are all black officers who, if they didn't have their uniforms on, could be this young man. so that is the context that i want to give you before we show this video. you can see there in memphis, people are bracing themselves for it as well. i'm going to show you that and we're going to have some reaction from some folks throughout the show. we'll go ahead and play that now.

. >> okay, i guess what we're seeing now is memphis police. we're seeing their body cam footage, so they're driving along. i don't know what happens next. there's no video that kicks on normally until they get to the scene of a crime, when you watch a lot of this police video, you'll note it is silent until it switches on at the moment when they are actually communicating with somebody that they're following or something is actually happening. their body cam audio isn't always on. so this is not abnormal that it's silent right now. >> get out of the car. >> i didn't do anything. i didn't do anything. >> turn around. >> all right, all right. >> on the ground. >> all right, all right. >> don't do that, okay. >> get on the ground.

get on the ground! >> i'm going to tase your ass. >> i'm on the ground. >> turn around. turn around. >> on the ground. i'm going to tase you. >> get on the ground. >> all right, okay. all right. >> i'm going to break your -- >> turn around. put your hands up. >> put your hands behind your back. i'll knock you out. >> you're doing a lot. i'm just trying to go home. >> if you don't lay down. >> i'm on the ground. >> on your stomach. >> i am. >> stop. i'm not doing anything. freeze, freeze, freeze.

. >> we're at range and ross. taser was deployed. suspect is running down ross. young male, black, slim build. blue jeans and a hoodie. southbound on ross. >> hang on.

hang on. ready? >> one hit him. all right, your car's right in front of you. >> grab the wallet. >> hang on. where is your water? >> i can't see. okay, i got you. >> get my water? >> yeah, right here. negative 2938. where are my glasses?

>> left eye again? >> i can't see jack. my glasses when he was fighting me. >> negative, we saw him running down ross.

>> what's up? ready? right eye. >> okay, i gotta find my glasses and get this damn taser

downloaded.

>> did you also read i pulled my taser? >> i have that down. >> check. >> that way. male, black, blue jeans and a

plaid jacket. >> good right now? >> they found him.

>> martin and all them are over there chasing him. >> okay. live tv. so we are watching this in real time with you. and so what it looks like, this is the preliminary aspect of what would become an ultimately deadly traffic stop. we saw the initial traffic stop. we saw the young man, tyre nichols, apparently attempt to flee and get tased. the officers pepper sprayed and maybe pepper sprayed each other.

that's the first video we have seen. tim alexander, a civil rights attorney and former officer himself, is standing by. you can see that in memphis they're also standing by. what i'm going to do now is show you the second video. that was the first video that just shows a preliminary aspect of the stop. this is the second video that shows i think the meat of the matter. so brace yourself and please just be warned that the video is violent, apparently. i have not seen it yet either. i'm going to watch it with you. this is the second part of the video that was released today from memphis police.

okay, i want to bring in tim alexander, civil rightsternally and former police officer himself. i don't know if you were able to see all of that. we played those two videos. what it appears to have happened, tim, is that officers stopped tyre nichols. he wound up fleeing. they put him on the ground. he got up and tried to flee. they tased him. they deployed pepper spray. they seemed to have sprayed one another in the face with the pepper spray. and then they caught up to him, closer to his home, and then this beating happened that we just played on air. so the questions, i have a couple questions for you, tim. this idea of the fleeing felon rule. the idea that when a person runs from police, they actually wind

up being in more danger. why does it so often seem to happen that police get hopped up on the adrenaline and anger of somebody running from them and, you know, i don't know how often it happens. but that seems to be a precursor more often than not to something like this. your thoughts. >> so and thank you for having me. the reality here is that these officers became emotionally hijacked. that they perceived because from what i saw in the first video and the second video, the young man, mr. nichols, didn't do anything. in fact, he was the only one in the first segment that actually said okay, stop. he was trying to calm these officers down. and instead, they became more and more hyped. i'm going to tase him, mace him. then he stands up and he gets away. regardless of all that activity. he gets away from them and they chase him and they continue to chase him. that adrenaline is pumping.

and no one comes on the scene and says, okay, everybody, take a deep breath. because if you recall on the first video, when one of the officers was running, the dispatcher asked, awhat's the charge. he could not respond. he didn't say anything. so the reality here is that these guys were hyped up on one fact and one fact only, that this young man had the gall to run from them, and they were going to hunt him down. that's exactly what we saw. and then it just deteriorated from there. >> and you know, this is the thing. it seems to me that people keep talking about it's the training, the training, but it seems to me the training is pure authoritarianism. it's that even in escalation of your voice allows them to escalate to physical violence. that police demand complete and utter obeisance rather than just compliance. compliance isn't even enough. they seem to feel they're allowed if you in any way resist

what they're telling you to do or even speak up to them, that they have the right to go overboard, to get emotional, as you said. that seems to be a problem that is universal across police departments, regions, states everywhere. why do you suppose that is and why can't we do anything about it? >> i know you identified as maybe the training is not the factor, but i believe the trainer is. i'm not necessarily referring to the training academy, i'm talking about the secondary training when they're on the street and working with their field training officer, the fto, and that person or persons if they rotate, are teaching them the ways of the neighborhoods and how to interact with everybody. i think that's where it becomes dysfunctional in some instances and you see as you described properly this total authoritarianism and this you will do everything i say exactly how i say it, and if i don't say it correctly, you better figure

it out and do it anyway, as they were telling him to get on the ground, he's like, i'm on the ground. well, lay on your belly because that's not what they wanted him to do initially. they wanted him flat on the ground. they were so hyped up they didn't convey it. i believe it does come back to the training. comes back to training these dysfunctional norms. it comes to training biases that become inplicit biases that these officers have inside of them, why they chased after him in the first place, and it just de-escalates from there or sorry, not deescalates, escalates from there, and it creates such a situation that we saw what we saw there with the officers teed off to kick this young man in the face and they pulled him off the ground so they could punch him and attempt the quote/unquote knockout punch as you saw the one officer trying to do. just deplorable. >> so i want to ask you to stay just right here, tim alexander. we have another piece of body cam vid kwloe. i have lots of people i want to

talk to. i have the mayor of los angeles that is here, and i'm going to talk with mayor karen bass, madam mayor. we have more folks to talk to, including the father of tyre nichols. we're going to ask them to please hold on. i want to warn you, this is video with audio, body cam footage of what happened to tyre nichols, so brace yourself and here it is. >> give me your hand. >> you want to get sprayed again? >> watch out, watch out. >> give me your hand. mom! >> give me your hands. >> all right, all right. >> give me your hands.

>> all right, okay. >> give me your hands. give me your hands. >> watch out. >> spray you again. >> give me your hands. >> spray. >> give me your hands. >> give me your hands. give me your hands. give me your hands.

turn around. lay flat. lay flat. >> give me your hands. >> watch out. give me your hands. >> hit him. >> watch out. give me your hands. >> give me your hands.

>> give me your hands. give me your hands. >> all right, all right. >> ross and castleten. we are east on the intersection. >> okay, i want to bring in mayor karen bass, mayor of los angeles. thank you so much for being here. it's been a lot. so i do want to talk to you about this, because you happen to be the mayor of a city that people first sort of connected with police violence around

obviously the rodney king situation. and i think people immediately thought of this and even the mayor and memphis described this video as very similar. you see the similar kinds of police violence. it's been a long time that we are still seeing the exact same procedures, the exact same rage by police officers when someone flees from them. and treating this person, you know, we have seen serial killers, mass shooters brought in more peacefully than we're seeing people pulled over for a traffic stop and ran. what's wrong with our system? >> well, first of all, thank you for having me on. you are absolutely correct. rodney king was over 30 years ago. and the idea that we're still seeing this type of violence, and you could see the herd type mentality. they were angry and they were going to take it out on him. the last segment you were talking about training. i do believe that training is important. but leadership is important. and i just want to commend the police chief in memphis because

she fired the officers immediately. she had them arrested and charged immediately. and that's the signal that needs to go out, because you know, most of the time that's not the case. i mean, we struggle for the video to be released. we struggle for anyone to make a definitive statement. so it's about leadership as well. >> this is the thing that i am thinking about. i think about the laquan alexander case, all these other cases where you have to almost sue police to get the video. it takes, you know, months and months. you can't get the names of the officers. you can't get any information, and you certainly wouldn't have video this quickly uploaded to the memphis police youtube channel. and so the disclosure here feels to me different. and maybe i'm just cynical and maybe i have just been around too long, but i feel like because you have african american officers here, so there's no race question on the table. >> that's true. >> so there's nothing that would give anyone pause to say we can talk about this police brutality. in your mind, just as somebody who knows this world and is in the political world, do you think that factored into how quickly we have seen what

definitely looks like a path towards justice for this family? >> i'll say the police chief is also an african american. >> everyone involved is african american. >> and a woman, but you know what, it does speak to what is wrong with policing in the united states. which is why i work so hard on the george floyd justice in policing act, because it's a national issue. we need to look at law enforcement, period. there are different types of mentalities. there's the guardian mentality that's traditional protect and serve that often is not done with our communities. then there's the warrior style of policing, what we saw was the warrior style of policing, but to me, unless there are very specific consequences and the leadership, i don't care how much you train people, officers have to know that there will be consequences. they will lose their job, and also, that they can't just go to another department. that's why we wanted to have the database, so that an officer couldn't just go from one department to the next. >> like what happened with tamir rice. the thing is that, right, and we

don't have the ability, families can't sue an individual police officer. they're immune from lawsuits. even if there's a huge settlement in some of these cases in which a person dies, the settlement comes from the taxpayer. it doesn't come from the police pension, it doesn't come from them. it almost feels like we have set up a risk-free environment for people to be their worst selves. if you get angry because this person ran from you, you can wallop them. you can take it out on them and do whatever you want, knowing the likelihood you'll be arrested, that the likelihood you'll go to jail because police as you said, they put the warrior style mainly only used on black and brown folks. it feels cost-free so they do it. >> the benefit of the doubt is given, just like after the murder in south carolina. i mean, they took him out to lunch before they arrested him. >> that's right, in burger king. >> it comes down to leadership in the city, in the police department, but officers have to

understand that there's consequences, but the other thing is that, too, there should be a policy of duty to intervene. the herd mentality was no one intervened. they used him as a punching bag. there was no concern for his wellbeing, and i understand that later when the paramedics come, they didn't even move him for quite some time. i'm sure he did not have to die. >> that is the problem, is that is there a basic respect for the human life in front of you? because it certainly seems that police are absolutely capable of professional conduct. because they arrest literal mass shooters and they do it completely peacefully and the person goes exactly where they belong, straight to jail. >> it's also not just a question of behavior because that's often said, if you would have just complied, that's not the case, because there are also numerous videotapes of other people who were completely noncompliant and the police used restraint.

>> they know upon whom they can do violence and do it accordingly. thank you, madam mayor. it's wonderful to be in your city, the great karen bass. thank you very much. i do want to bring in reverend earl fisher, senior pastor of a baptist church in memphis. i want to get your reaction to all of this, the rapid disclosure, the unusual quick disclosure, the unusual disclosure of the video and obviously, the violence done on the body of this young man, tyre nichols. >> first, joy, thank you for having me again. there's no way i could brace myself for what i heard. i was trying my best not to look at the video footage and couldn't. look at it in its entirety. all manner of emotions surrounding what i heard and even what you all have described. i think it's impossible for us to calculate the impact of this video and this moment, and the developments over the last

several days. i heard mayor bass, and i appreciate her perspective in so far as the developments from the outside. let me say something about the developments from the inside. it is leadership indeed, and it's the leadership of fierce and faithful activists and organizers and community leaders who have been pushing for reforms that probably could have prevented this. for the last several years. and so there is some kudos to be given to city administration and the memphis police department, and at the same time, we have to discuss exactly how this came to be, and it reflective of a culture of brutality within this police department and other police departments like it all across the country. i just don't want us to jump too fast to try to applaud people who in some ways have been helping to manufacture and maintain the conditions that caused this to happen. >> i think that's really important, because those structures are put in place and

are supported by tremendous amounts of campaign contributions that keep politicians in line, and prevent reform. i think about karen bass when she was in the congress trying to do police reform. and it being undermined, the sheriffs national league got together. they went to lindsey graham and suddenly tim scott's supposed crowning achievement as a senator was thrown in the garbage and its political and it's about who's giving contributions to whom, and what's lost is the humanity of the people who are most policed, and that is mainly people of color, black people. i want to ask if you had a chance to talk with the family. we're going to talk to rodney wells who was tyre nichols' dad. have you had a chance to convene with the family as of yet? >> i have encountered them a couple times at a press conference, even last night at the prayer vigil, and even before seeing and hearing some of this, my heart goes out to them. to the point you were making earlier, knowing this is more about the culture of policing

and people are responsible and accountable to several different levels. we have to talk about how this unit itself, that these people were a part of ultimately recommended who was responsible for that, how were you serving for five or fewer years on the force and ended up with enough autonomy and independence and lack of oversight to produce something like this, and nobody should objectively think this is their first time doing this. and you cannot say two apples. if two is company and three is a crowd, frooisk five is a system and a structure we have to challenge and have been challenging for quite some time, and the reforms we have been proposing have not been enforced. we have to put it in context of things happening over the year and continue to center this for

the puculiarity related to this video and this particular family and i'm telling you the family of tyre nichols, all of the pastors i know, all of the activists where known, are trying to stand in solidarity with them, and all of us know it's bigger than them. there are people in the city of memphis right now who bear the burden and the scars and the trauma of all manner of police brutality but because of the grace of god they just did not die. so we have to do better all across the board. >> absolutely. this is not -- people don't suddenly behave this way all in a group for the first time. people behave the way they know they have been allowed to behave. you're right. it's a systemic problem and anybody who argues it isn't is living in a dream world. reverend earl fisher, thank you very much. joining me now from memphis is rodney wells, tyre nichols' father. i want to give our deepest condolences to you. you should not have to be here tonight to talk about losing

your son. but i thank you for being gracious enough to do it anyway. i want to give you a moment rather than to talk about the horrors that we just saw, i want you to tell us about tyre, tell us who he was as a person, as a living person, and what he meant to his family. >> tyre was a sweetheart. he had a very infectious personality. every time, you know, we worked together. so everybody at my job loved him to death. he was the kind of guy where you come in the door, you can't walk past him without getting a hug. you know, he's going to make sure, if you get past him, please rr going to make sure you come back and give him a hug. he's just that kind of person. and everybody adored him. when we had -- when this first happened, we had a balloon release at my job. and it was over 100 employees in

the parking lot for the balloon release. everybody wants to -- everybody loves tyre. he's the kind of person that you see the good in. he was his own person. he didn't follow trends. i remember, i bought him a $200 pair of tennis shoes, nike air maxes in a size 12. i couldn't wear them. i gave them to him. he didn't want them. he didn't want them. he wanted vans. you know, he likes to skateboard. he likes to take pictures of the sunset. he loves his son. he loves photography. you know, i'm from l.a., so we had a saying for guys like that, we call them valley boys because they were not from the tracks. they weren't from the streets. you know, they used to skateboard and surfboard and things that we didn't do.

so that was tyre. >> what, if anything, would you say if you could speak to these five officers who could have been tyre on the wrong day out of uniform? the way that they treated him, not like he was a brother, even though someone was saying bro as they were talking to him and beating him. but as someone who didn't have a right to live. and it's shocking when it's -- to see black men who should know what that would be like doing that. what would you say to them? >> what i would want to say to them is they messed with the wrong kid. but you know, as my wife said, we pray for them, too. we pray for their families because he's disgraced their whole family. grandmothers to kids.

you know, they have to bear the brunt of what their parents did or what their sons did. and it's shameful. you know, like i said, again, i'm from l.a. so we have a group of cops out there, we used to call the goon squad. and they would do the same type of thing they're doing here. so back then, we didn't have all these video cameras and tapes, so a lot of people were brutalizing and nothing became of it. so i don't understand how they thought they could get away with it in today's time. with all these cameras. you know, i heard the defense attorney saying this mr. mills guy was such a great guy. and he probably was in his community or around his family, but when he's in these streets, he turns into a monster, because these were monsters that did

this to my son. you know, as my wife said, my son weighed 150 pounds. each one of these officers was over 200. that's 1,000 pounds beating on my son. using him as a pinata. you know. all this unnecessary force that was really not needed for a kid that wasn't resisting or just trying to get home to his parents. that doesn't make common sense to me. >> i don't think it makes common sense to anyone. making sense of it is probably a waste of all of our time, but thank you for sharing some of your time with us. again, our deepest condolences to you. rodney wells, thank you, sir. thank you very much, and god bless you. >> thank you. >> thank you. joining me now is britney cunningham, activist, msnbc political analyst, and host of the undistracted podcast. frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence and msnbc national security analyst. and back with me is tim

alexander. the word disgrace was used by mr. wells, britney, i'm going to come to you first. and the pastor said earlier that the fact that we have seen this unusually quick disclosure of this disgrace was not because the system worked. it was because the activists worked. you are an activist who was prominently involved in the michael brown case, but just sitting down and writing off the top of my head, tamir rice, castile brown, george floyd, i could go on and on, do a whole list. and the thing that a lot of them have in common is that the officers involved felt that if they did not comply with them the way they wanted, immediately, and become completely flaccid and obedient, they deserved to get beaten, they deserved to get shot, they deserved whatever they got. that isn't the way -- serial

killers and mass shooters are treat, but somehow, with these black men and women, that's the way it goes. >> and even when black folks are completely compliant with the police, we die anyway. even when we pose no threat, even when we're sleeping in our own beds, even when we're trying to enjoy some ice cream and cool off from a long day. the truth of the matter is like pastor earl said, this is deeply systemic, and there are folks questioning, well, these were black officers therefore the entire movement falls on its face. but what we have been saying the entire time is we understand the roots of the tree and that's why we understand the fruits of the tree. very frankly, this idea of american policing serving and protecting is actually true. because they serve white wealthy people and they protect property from the rest of us. so anybody of any color is capable of carrying out that function when american policing so often as it has been evolved

from slave patrols really deputizes citizens who take the oath to wreak havoc in communities. deputizes people to carry out white supremacy on the state's behalf and all of us should be upset that the state and taxpayer dollars can be used to carry out a death sentence on absolutely anybody. >> that is the point, i think that's such an important point, tim alexander. i read, i think it was in a rolling stone piece, but what the person essentially said is you can't say the training is flawed because the training actually works as it's designed to work. it's that you look at uvalde and say wait a minute, how could there be 317 police there and they didn't -- they weren't able to stop that shooter? but what the training says is police need to maximize their own safety. so that means they did do what they were trained to do, which is maximize their own safety, not run in front of bullets. police in the article, they said they don't stop crimes. they enforce compliance on the people society wants controlled.

and that's what police are trained to do, to make the people society wants to be under control be under control. and to be under their physical control immediately or else. you having been in the job, do you see it that way? >> no, i don't follow that rolling stone piece to that script. i think that what law enforcement is intended to do, and it has evolved and it certainly has a long way to go, and let me add a caveat, before i was a police officer, i was a victim of civil rights violations. i was shot at police, i was charged with a crime i didn't commit and i had to fight and clear my name. i -- >> that could recognize when those things might have and respond appropriately, and i did. i think that using that as an example, we can evolve police to the next stage, to match up

to what society wants, than what society needs. and what we see -- what we saw out there, with those officers beating this man to death, and take it even bigger than that. you had a dispatcher or officer or somebody watching that camera, moving that camera around. why didn't that person call and -- and say that this is happening? so, there is a cultural problem there. i think it's systemic. and i believe that racism is systemic and on forsman. but that does not mean that we scrapped the program. we have to root this out. i believe it starts through training. it starts with changing these dysfunctional norms and coming up with a program that will work for our society, what we as taxpayers demand and we have been demanding for many, many years. >> and so i just wrote that down -- what society wants. because the question, is frank figliuzzi, what do we want? we don't want people to speed. we don't want people to die for speeding. like, we don't want people to blow a stop sign -- we don't want to die if you are

blowing a stop sign. what people say they want from police is that when a mass shooter comes in a fourth grade classroom, they run in there with their assault weapons and stop the mass shooter. that does not happen. what ends up happening is, somebody with a taillight out ends up dead in the middle of the street because they happen to be a black guy with a taillight out out. and no matter how police -- look, i have friends who are police. my father was a retired police officer. police are being told that what we want is for them to stop that person who is five miles over the speed limit by any means necessary, and if they get out of the car and chase them down and do whatever you want -- that is what they are doing. at they are doing. frank? >> tim has been eloquent and right on the money with much of his comments. i'm going to take it even a step further, backwards, because he's emphasizing training, which is absolutely correct. and he has also previously

emphasized the disparity between the training that goes on in the academy -- which is usually by the book -- and the training that really goes on once you hit the field and you are training officer and the other veterans are telling you about life on the street. that needs to change. that is a cultural problem that comes from leadership and from the veteran officers and who you select to be the field training officers. but let's back up for training. let's talk about -- you mentioned what does the community want? a community gets the police department they have until they demand that it changes, and we start recruiting entirely different character traits and personalities to the job. it starts with the recruitment and it goes on through training. and you sadly get what you pay for. the training, for example, that i went through at the fbi academy, is incredibly expensive, incredibly long, and it is incredibly strong. that does not happen in most

cities around america. and so, tim also mentioned leadership. in many progressive, successful departments, the sergeant on the shift in that sector is a quarterback who makes the calls. because he or she is plugged into it. so, when we see, for example, someone is calling in a chase, we have lost our subject -- and the dispatcher is asking, for what charge? there is a purpose for that question. because a sergeant is supposed to step in -- in a good department -- and go, excuse me, you are chasing somebody? for what? for reckless driving? we don't do that here. that happens in progressive departments around america. tune in your police scanners and your police department. you can do it on the internet. just dial on your police phone. you will hear, in a good department, you will hear a sergeant calling off a chase and saying, you go do this over here, it's more important than what you are doing. then, just tactically -- and i know no one wants -- no one cares about this. but i am in law enforcement for 25 years. i got to tell you, these are terrible cops from a tactical

standpoint. you are telling me they can't control a 150-pound skinny guy? are you kidding me? punching him in the face is just stupid. do you know why, from a tactical standpoint? you can break your hand. you are gonna hand is now gone. there's just some stupid things. repeatedly kicking someone's never trained but also stupid, because you are offering your leg to somebody, who, allegedly, is a threat to you. and everyone standing around afterwards -- i don't see people rendering aid. i see people winded. and i will tell you, since i supervise civil rights investigations in northern california for a period of my career, including excessive use of force by police officers, i will tell you there is an unwritten law in many police departments that goes like this. if you make me run, you are getting beaten. period, end of discussion. i have seen it over and over again. ve>> we started with that, with this idea that if you run, you're getting beaten. so, i will ask you. because you are a community

activist. so, what do we want from police? what is it that the community, when you talk to folks, what do they want? community, when you tal>> so, i want to baa second, joy. because i feel myself getting hot, if i'm honest. and respectfully, to the other guests, i heard the word control quite a bit. and therein lies the problem. because if we are talking about the ways to properly control a black body, we are not actually identifying the fact that the problem is that you want to control the black body in the first place. this is not about safety. this is not about public safety. that's not about serving and protecting. we are talking about a traffic stop. so, the idea that there is a proper way to control a 150-pound person who is now dead is actually deeply offensive to me. the fact of the matter is, people want safety. people want us to invest our money in the things that really keep a safe. and i'm sorry -- if we keep talking about training, millions, billions of dollars have been poured into training. and i say this as someone who

used to advocate for these things! but i am reminded of james baldwin in this moment. how long do you want us to wait for your progress? gentlemen, how long do you want us to wait for your progress? you are telling me that more training is the answer. there has been more training! there have been body cameras. there has been recruitment. there has been additional diversity. there has been money and resources poured into all of these things, instead of the things that we criminalize people for, like substance abuse, like mental health, like houselessness. how long do you want to wait for your progress? because, right now, this is certainly not with the people want. and we are tired of continuously being told to wait in order to achieve and experience the kind of personal safety and respect and dignity that we deserve. >> and i will ask this question -- tim alexander, because, you were in law enforcement, why does an armed person need to be involved in any kind of traffic infraction? affi infraction

>> you mean why did the officers have to be armed if they are doing traffic -- >> yeah. if there is a person who went five miles over the speed limit -- i mean, it feels like, if you have a hammer, everything is -- why are we using a violent -- somebody who is trained to shoot and kill, why does that person need to be the person involved in a traffic stop at all? involved in >> i will tell you . i live in new jersey. and we have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation. i think we could be the model for the rest of the nation. but people still arm themselves. and their identities are not known until the officer can run their license or look at their face or whatever the case may be. so, it could be someone in there who is going to harm that person in that car because maybe they just did something. by the way, part of my training was reviewing officers who were ambushed on motive equal stops, who were gunned down on motive

eagle stops. so, it does happen. and it continues to happen. i mean, i don't want to conflate what we are talking about here. i just want to address why you should have armed officers -- >> no, no. what i'm saying is -- i will ask you a similar question, frank. because we live in an era where we have drones. i have gotten traffic tickets when i got home because a robot in the sky saw that i had a traffic ticket. if someone is speeding, why does somebody need to call into a dispatcher to say, hey, i am chasing this person who was driving too fast down the speed limit, or driving a radically, when literally, if it is a matter of a ticket that they are going to receive at the end of the day, you could literally send them the ticket in the mail? so, why are we stopping cars because there is something wrong with a taillight, when you can photograph that and send them a ticket -- >> will joy -- >> -- why are they pulling people over at all?

>> yeah, i've got the question. you're asking about a question that goes for the larger issue of reimagining the police and what the community wants and needs. and certainly, i don't know about your state, but the state i live in, everyone is armed and can be without license or permit. so, that is reality on the street. but you are asking a larger question, which is, what is it really that we need to deploy armed people for? and i think that is a valid question. this brings up another issue, though, because we keep hearing about the scorpion unit. and so don't let anybody tell you these people were out looking for traffic violations. these crime suppression units, these jumped out squads, as some cities call them, they are about suppressing people in an aggressive way. and that is what needs to be looked at here. these people were not looking for traffic violation. >> thank you for. that i run us right to the end of the show. so, brittany packnett, --