good day. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. a sixth officer has now been relieved of duty in memphis as heartbreaking new details are shedding light on both the horrific beating that cost tyre nichols his life and the minutes that passed when something might have been done to save him.

we'll dig deeper into the decisions made by police and first responders and the decisions officials are faced with right now that could stop the next attack from happening. our new nbc news poll showing americans increasingly grim about the country's future saying it's a disaster. the warning signs for joe biden's expected re-election bid, how can he turn things around. no golden elevator, no wild crowds. donald trump's 2024 campaign kicks off with what one publication called a sleepy event in new hampshire. just 400 people in a high school auditorium. does that kind of kickoff open the door even wider for other republicans to jump into the race? a lot to talk about today. at this power the country is struggling to come to grips with the sheer brutality and inhumanity of the death of tyre nichols, put into devastating focus by today's "new york times" analysis. it concludes that officers shouted at least 71 commands in

13 minutes, many of them orders described as impossible for nichols to follow. all of that before reporting he was in custody. as we learned just an hour ago, a sixth officer was involved preston hemphill has been relieved from duty. the details from the video have so brutal, we won't show it again. as local, state and federal officials go back to work this monday with the voices of thousands of protesters demanding answers to a central question. what are you going to do to stop this from happening again? with astonishing grace and forgiveness, tyre's mother just this morning found reason to hope. >> i feel like my son was sacrificed for the greater good and there's going to be a lot of good that comes out of this. hopefully we can help another kid and another family not go through something like this. >> nbc's ellison barber is live

in memphis. harry litman is a former deputy assistant general. kurt birk halter is a retired new york city police detective and from new york law school. ellison, what more do we know about the sixth officer relieved of duty? could there be even more officers facing some level of punishment? >> reporter: there certainly could be. that's something the d.a. for shelby county has been very clear on, particularly in the last 48 hours saying this investigation is on going, and just because there are five officers facing charges, that does not mean that more indictments and additional charges could perhaps happen down the road. as far as this sixth officer, we're still learning a lot of details here. we do have his name right now. according to a spokesperson for the memphis police department, officer preston hemphill has been relieved of duty, the sixth

officer to be relieved of duty following the death of tyre nichols. they're not commending now on the extent of his involvement that night, but they are telling nbc news that this officer was relieved of duty with the other five officers shortly after the traffic stop on january 7th, but they say his name was not originally released to the public because he was not fired. the spokesperson says, as it relates to this particular officer, the investigation is still on going. when asked by nbc news, the spokesperson declined to say whether or not this officer is on paid or unpaid leave, but she did say that additional information when it is available will be updated, provided through their social media platforms. this officer, again, his name preston hemphill was hired in 2018. there has been chatter about this officer. local community activists noticing in an early affidavit

that his name was mentioned, and there was some sort of reference to him using a taser that night. those activists as well as local newspaper the tennessee holler raising questions particularly online saying, hey, what's the deal here? who is this person that is named? really in the last hour we're getting confirmation, though not a lot of details from the memphis police department that this individual who was being talked about, particularly amongst community activist groups here, that he has, in fact, been relieved from duty. but, again, they're not commenting on what exactly his involvement that night was. they are not saying whether he's on paid or unpaid leave. chris. >> thank you, ellison. we appreciate that update. kirk, it's still even days later almost impossible to get your head around what happened during this traffic stop. we don't even know why tyre nichols was pulled over. what we do know from this "new york times" analysis about what police were yelling at him is, quote, the orders were often

simultaneous and contradictory. officers commanded nichols to show his hands even as they were holding his hands. they told him to get on the ground even when he was on the ground and they ordered him to reposition himself even when they had control of his body. is that bad training? is it heat of the moment? why do we see so many traffic stops turning into deadly encounters? >> well, that's an excellent question. there are several reasons. starting with the information that you just set forth, this is not necessarily bad training. it's panic and it's ineffective policing. we don't know if it's bad training or not. when someone is presented with multiple commands, the brain goes into overload and quite often the person, the recipient of those commands is unsure which to follow, and not following any of those commands can have death-related

consequences as was the case here. it sounds like if you watch the video, the traffic stop emanate friday a perceived slight. i don't know that for a fact. if you watch the video, the officer talks about the fact that he felt tie ri nichols' vehicle almost struck his, and they were angry. that we do know, the officers were angry from the moment they encountered nichols. i think that played a lot into their behavior. >> i mentioned we're not even sure if nichols was lawfully stopped, whether it was a case if one of those officers felt like he almost got into an accident with him. but where does that tell you -- what does that tell you about that part of the investigation and how easy or difficult or important will it be to find out what happens as a motivating factor. >> look, even if they had some justification which happens in other cases, nevertheless, it

devolved so quickly into essentially an often lawful free-for-all, savage pummeling where he is remarkably -- he's saying, guys, you're doing so much, what's going on? policing 101 with respect is you must give clear and specific commands. it's literally hellish. he's getting it from every direction. then he's getting pepper-sprayed and getting tased. he doesn't know what's going on. they stand him up to absolutely deliver crushing blows. so the whole thing is not simply brutal but also complete bedlam and confusion. that paints a crime scene. it seems like maybe he dissed them. it has to do with showing who is in control of the streets. if he was driving on the wrong side of the street or whatever,

it doesn't begin to justify almost any part -- i worked on the rodney king case and the theory was it was legitimate at first but then maybe a minute in it got illegitimate. the best i can tell, the entire encounter here and the beating from all directions was from the beginning without justification. >> kirk, there are also questions about the medical response. i want to go through a pretty generic but to the.ed timeline of how this unfolded. 8:37 nichols is handcuffed and immobile. 8:41 medics arrive on the scene, but it's not until 8:57 that they begin to provide aid. then 9:02 the ambulance arrives. 9:18 nichols is taken to the hospital. this seems like a really long time although we don't know, again, what police were telling the first responders about what was happening. what are the protocols in a situation like this?

>> the police are obligated constitutionally to provide medical aid. we see this all the time. we see police officers engaged in gun battles with suspects, and even after that battle is over, even if police injured a person, they immediately respond and provide medical aid. this is because to do otherwise actually crosses over into the punishment phase, and that's what our course are here for. certainly the police were obligated to provide medical aid. we didn't see that certainly in the video. as a matter of fact, police officers telling nichols to sit up. they're walking around, recounting the incident while he was there basically bleeding to death. this is such a -- that part of the interaction clear to be obvious official misconduct in my opinion. >> i'd like to ask you both the same question before we have to go, and if you can keep your answers fairly brief. i know it's a complicated

question. harry, you managed you worked on the rodney king case. in these high profile cases we have seen convictions, but it doesn't seem like they're having an effect to tell police you can't do this anymore. am i off base here? are they not sending a message with some of these sentences that they're putting out there now? harry, can i ask you that first? >> i think most police experts will tell you there has been a change in culture. one of the most disconcerting elements, all six of these guys were hired between 2017 and 2020. they're the newer officers and yet they're from the older take-no-prisoners kind of culture. that's really troubling. >> what do you make of it, kirk? do you think there's a change at least in the mindset of how these things are being handled? >> i think we see -- it's both. we see a slight change in the mindset.

but also keep in mind what we saw here goes beyond simple violation of police procedure. this was sadistic behavior. the question is whether these officers should have even been police officers or whether it was some sort of extensive monitoring, whether they should have been surveyed off the police department prior to this incident. >> i'm being told i'm out of town, but i have to ask you this question because i was just reminded of it. i was flying back, and i was sitting next to a young african american male on the plane. i noticed that he was watching on a saturday night a documentary on another network about police stops. kirk, i asked him -- i was surprised that he was watching that. he said, why would anybody question why we run. i didn't have an answer for him. do you? >> it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

that's the point we're getting to in the minds of the civilian population, why would we question -- i would just encourage folks that that's never the answer, but i understand. how can you explain to a civilian anything different after seeing this type of video. >> kirk burke holter and harry litman, thank you. coming up later this hour, val demings has seen this from both sides as a former police chief and a member of congress. we'll talk about her concerns with police culture and whether changing the rules can change behavior. meantime, there's a huge diplomatic test under way for the biden administration at this hour. secretary of state antony blinken trying to help tamp down violence that has broken out between israelis and palestinians including an attack on a synagogue that left seven israelis dead, the worst attack in 15 years. kelly cobiella is in jerusalem. blinken didn't travel there because of the violence.

what is the potential impact of this trip during this unrest and what are folks there looking for? >> reporter: it's pushed this issue right up to the top of the agenda for america's top diplomat, antony blinken, having to address this just after stepping off the plane as he landed here in israel today, saying it was pertinent for both sides. both sides needed to take steps to stop what he called a rising tide of violence. he addressed it again in those joint statements -- in that joint statement with the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu warning against taking any action that could jeopardize that long-term goal of a two-state solution. take a listen to what he said. >> anything that moves us away from that vision is in our judgment detrimental to israel's long-term security and long-term identity as a jewish and

democratic state. that's why we're urging all sides now to take urgent steps to restore calm, to deescalate. we want to make sure that there's an environment in which we can i hope at some point create the conditions where we can start to restore a sense of security for israelis and palestinians alike which is sorely lacking. >> reporter: there are big issues on the agenda, still are, namely iran. secretary blinken saying both the u.s. and israel agree that iran can never acquire a nuclear weapon. what is the plan b if iran does not rejoin the nuclear accord. and also keeping iran's military ambitions in check. the u.s. accused iran of supplying russia with iranian-made drones to use in ukraine. just over the weekend we saw a drone attack on an iranian

military facility t. iranians blamed israel and the u.s. the cia hasn't had a comment, neither has the israeli defense ministry. this is something, a tactic israel has used in the past, these drone attacks on iran, and, again, iran's ambition something that both countries have in common. >> kelly cobiella, thank you. the site of the latest target of ruthless russian selling, a kindergarten. it's adding to president zelenskyy's argument that his company needs even more critical weapons after allies pledged to send dozens of battle tanks to ukraine. since it could be month before they get there, zelenskyy said we have to make time our weapon. he's also asking for fighter jets with talks over getting them to ukraine reportedly on the fast track including a list of ukrainians ready to train on those f-16s. no commitment from the pentagon or european allies.

front-runner frustration. steve kornacki at the big board with a new nbc poll. where joe biden's support seems to be sliding and what can he do about it? donald trump's message to the growing number of republicans who say "chris jans reports" only on msnbc. ansing reports" only on msnbc e high blood pressure, a cold is not just a cold. coricidin is the #1 doctor recommended cold and flu brand. specially designed for people with high blood pressure. be there for life's best moments. trust coricidin. if your moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms are stopping you in your tracks... choose stelara® from the start... and move toward relief after the first dose... with injections every two months. stelara® may increase your risk of infections,

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645 days out from the 2024 election, and about a year out from the projected start of the primaries. today we have an early but very tangible look at both the mood of the country and the strategies of the front-runners. a new nbc news poll shows that while president biden's approval rating hasn't changed, several key indicators have, and the movement is negative. i want to bring in steve kornacki with us at the big board. good to see you, steve. also joining us is matthew dowd, msnbc senior political analyst and former chief strategist for the bush/cheney 2004 campaign. i don't know why i was so surprised, but the sheer pessimism and the record setting level of pessimism really is a standout in this poll that i think is a warning for both sides. >> it's really striking i think. talking about the first nbc poll

of 2023. you've had the republicans take over the house and big changes in washington. the overall political climate, as you say, you look at joe biden's approval rating, in our poll he's still under water. 45% approve, 50% disapprove. you look at all the numbers from last year heading into the midterm, still right where he was last year. we were saying last year not a particularly popular president. that remains the case heading into 2023. you talk about pessimism here asking folks, their income compared to the cost of living. look at this. talking about this all last year, two-thirds of voters don't feel their income is keeping up with the cost of living, that fear of inflation. very palpable out there still, that economic pessimism. then we ask about what you're seeing here, a long list of traits and attributes, asking folks about whether they feel joe biden has them or not, whether they feel positively or negatively. >> this is incredible. >> he scores well on easygoing and likable. look at the areas where he's upside down, honest and

trustworthy, competent and effective, mental and physical health. obviously the oldest president that we've had. we were telling the story in 2022, unpopular president, economic pessimism were concerns about biden. you did see democrats defying political gravity in 2022. that's numbers tell you at least at the beginning of the 2024 journey if biden is the candidate in 2024, they may have to defy gravity again. >> matthew dowd, he's certainly not the president in the middle of his first term looking like he's in trouble when you look at the polls. what are these big drops, honest and trustworthy, competent and effective, what do they tell you about a biden 2024 campaign? >> it tells me like 2020 and 2016 it's going to be not a referendum on the president, it's going to be a choice election. as you started this segment and as steve knows, the country is very sour on everybody.

the country is very sour on donald trump. the country is very vour on the democrats in congress and the republicans in congress. democrats were successful in arguing the choice in 2022. i'm sure if biden runs, he's going to argue don't make it a referendum on me. >> that doesn't say that you're anticipating or they should sit around and wait to see an economic turn-around. the first thing you think of easy, easy in quotation marks, is if the economy turns around, his fortunes turn around. >> yeah, but i don't think he has much control over that. if i were them, i wouldn't worry too much about it. i would continue, if i were them, making the contrast between doing what they're doing and what republicans in the house of representatives are doing. the economy, if it goes great, they'll be benefited. if it doesn't, they'll be harmed

by it. let's keep in mind, if the economy wasn't doing well in 2022 and democrats and the president smartly made it a choice and made it about a bigger issue like democracy and like the future of our country, so the economy is sitting there. one of the things is the economy is the most important issue in every election. the question becomes what do you run on? >> two very different questions. steve kornacki, thank you so much. fascinating stuff. matt dowd, stay with me. after the break, president trump swings through two primary states. why he says he's committed more than ever but why some in his party say he's not really bringing the fire. eally bringing the fire. i'm down with rybelsus®. my a1c is down with rybelsus®. in a clinical study, once-daily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill.

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maybe he's lost that step. i'm more angry now and more committed now than i ever was. >> more angry and more committed. but the jabs are also beginning to fly. trump taking shots at ron desantis while nikki haley continues to tease a run of her own. vaughn, in new hampshire, the crowd small, about 400. you're in south carolina. give me a sense of what you see as the enthusiasm or lack thereof there, and not just from the crowds, but i also want to know about important elected officials whose support is important in primaries. >> reporter: the trump campaign is trying to do something a little different. this is the first time on the road since he made the announcement at mar-a-lago in the middle of november after the midterm elections. here in south carolina, it was under the dome of the south carolina statehouse. it wasn't a matter of trying to

turn out thousands of folks for a typical rally we've been accustomed to. instead, it was to lock down support among elected officials and party activists. in new hampshire, the annual meeting of the new hampshire gop where he announced the outgoing new hampshire chairman was coming on to his campaign team as new hampshire senior advisor. here in south carolina, he was flanked by the likes of individuals who he claimed to be part of his leadership team. those individuals included the governor, henry mcmaster, the senior senator, lindsey graham, as well as three of the six sitting republican congressmen here from the state of south carolina. if you go back six years ago when donald trump was announcing and running that first go-around, it was tough for him to find folks at the party activist level of elected official who would willingly stand by him. you saw the likes of the republican women's club that drove to columbia to come to

this event. he's going to them and making the direct appeal to stand with him for another term. before anybody else gets into this race, he is attempting the lay the foundation to build off from there as these other republicans will jumping into the race, too. >> dasha, potential challengers are talking, south carolina's nikki haley sounds like she's going to run. she's making the argument it's time for a new generation to lead. new hampshire governor chris su knew knew made an appearance, he's considering a run. you've been talking to republicans in lucerne county, it was blue, now deep red. i wonder if they're telling you they think on the republican side it's time for a change? >> reporter: here at the avenue diner in lucerne county there's a lot of frustration. people are talking about the high prices for groceries, electric bills, small business owners talking about how they can't take out loans because of the interest rates. not surprising to hear that

people here in lucerne county which is deep red now in the post trump era. not surprising they're frustrated with this administration and there's a lot of nostalgia for the bygone trump era. just because they miss president donald trump as president doesn't mean they want to see him as president again. it's interesting. one thing we hear a lot about both trump and fied den when we talk to voters, the age factor. the other factor i've been hearing a lot from voters that voted for him twice, by the way, is the baggage element, that there's so much drama surrounding him. although the voters don't believe he did anything wrong, they say they think he was a great president, they're still frustrated with how much talk there is about him and the various controversies. alan, a small business owner in lucerne e county. >> would you vote for trump over other republicans? >> it depends.

i wouldn't mind seeing somebody new, somebody that doesn't have so many followers that were radical. if he didn't have such radical followers, he would be a great president. >> reporter: by the way, i also talked to a few democratic voters here who also aren't so thrilled about seeing biden run again. you were talking a little bit to steve kornacki and matthew dowd about this earlier. not a lot of optimism on either side. the outlook feels pretty bleak when you talk to voters right now, both because of the economic climate right now and also when they're looking at their options. i will say, though, that the republican voters have been talking to, i asked about the new gop-controlled house, how they're feeling about that. they said they really want to see republicans work with democrats to just get something done. the stalemate they've been watching for years now is really starting to wear on them, chris. >> so matthew, trump's main rival, at least in the very

early polls is florida governor ron desantis who has president even announced whether he's running. a new hampshire poll shows him leading trump by 12 points. trump's answer when he talks about desantis is less like i'm the better choice and more grievance. take a listen. >> ron would not be governor if it wasn't for me. that's okay. when i hear he might run, i consider that very disloyal. how at this very early stage do you see this race shaping up, even if it's the four candidates? >> when i hear donald trump, i think of the toy, where you pointed it at the goat, and you pull the lever. every single response when somebody does something he doesn't like, it's grievance. i think donald trump is vulnerable. vulnerable to a run, but i think the problem is, the king of the

republican party is donald trump. in order to be the king, you have to beat the king. donald trump, i'll remind people, is more popular among republicans than he was when he ran and won in 2016. if you look at his numbers in 2016 running in the republican primary, he's more popular today. i think nikki haley is probably between a rock and a hard place in this because she's criticized donald trump. so she has that baggage. then she tries to claim loyalty to donald trump. so she has that baggage. i showed a poll that shows nikki haley, who was governor in south carolina in fourth place in south carolina. so while donald trump has vulnerabilities, he's still immensely popular among the republican base. as he did in 2016, there's a lot of candidates that surface and say, wow, they're going to be a great candidate. jeb bush, a great candidate, scott walker, a great candidate, rudy giuliani, a great

candidate. all of them fell by the wayside in donald trump's wake. we'll have to wait and see. right now he's vulnerable, but he's still king of the republican party. >> i do not know that toy, but it sounds like something i missed from my child hood. i'll have to deal with that in addition to everything else. matthew dowd, vaughn hillyard, dasha burns, thank you very much. black lawmakers demanding a meeting with the president after congressional talks broke down over the george floyd justice in policing act. former police chief and congresswoman val demings on where changes need to come from. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. sing reports" only on msnbc ♪ so let's get it ♪ ♪ i'm feeling good vibes ♪ so cozy. how many rooms are in there? should we go check it out? yeah. we get to stay here all weekend! when you stay at a vrbo...

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daniels during the 2016 presidential campaign. nbc news has not confirmed the report. i want to bring back harry litman. the times said mr. bragg's decision to impanel a grand jury focused on the hush money, super charging the longest running criminal investigation into mr. trump represents dramatic escalation in an inquiry that once appeared to have reached a dead-end. what does this tell you? by the way, they're suggesting this my not be a regular grand jury, but a special grand jury, harry. >> first, it stands to reason that it is a special grand jury that will meet to consider the charges. as the times says this has had quite a tortuous history. cyrus vance jr. wanted to bring charges. bragg himself decided not to. now it looks like he wants to go forward. the core here, stormy daniels

basically is getting hush money, and that payment seems to have been characterized on the books as a legal fee to michael cohen which it wasn't. that's the new york crime, although there are different ways they could try to characterize it. they have some evidence. cohen talks by phone to trump twice the day before he wires the payment. today -- it looks as though the testimony, chris, has begun today with david pecker, the head of the "national enquirer" who was agreeing to kill the story. but all in all, it's that lurid hush money, but the actual crime in new york has to do with mischaracterization of the payments. that looks as what they're going after. >> give me a bigger picture understanding of what it would mean or how it would operate if

it's a special grand jury versus a regular grand jury. >> instead of a regular grand jury that's just there twice a week to hear whatever robbery or embezzlement comes through, they're focused on this. it's a complicated tale that they're going to weave, and they're bringing it in front of them specifically -- they're specialists on what will be the stormy daniels hush money case. >> harry litman, thank you for popping back up for us. up next, the calls for police reform after tyre nichols death reverberating in the halls of congress. the latest details from d.c. and congress gres woman next. congress gres woman next with ps achieve clearer skin. and no routine blood tests required. don't use if you're allergic to otezla.

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since 2020 according to academics and advocates for police reform who track such deaths. but what amounts to real change? here is princeton university professor eddie glaude this morning. >> oftentimes we think representation satisfies the question of justice. so all we need to do is add people of color, add women, diversify, and somehow that's supposed to change the very substance of an institution. just putting black faces in front doesn't necessarily change the institution. you could have a black face being the face of military dropping unjustified bombs on innocent people. that doesn't change the fact that it's evil, right. >> i want to bring in nbc capitol hill correspondent ali vitali. the president is calling on congress to pass the george floyd justice in policing act. what are the chances it will pass and is there a date on the

books between biden and the cbc? >> reporter: no date on the books yet. the congressional black caucus has asked for the meeting in the aftermath of this latest moment of police violence. in terms of the way that pressure could manifest in this building, it exists. but it's not clear that the pressure has anywhere to go. the realities here in this building have become in some ways even more difficult for the george floyd justice in policing act than it was in 2021 when those talks fell apart in the fall of that year. still we're seeing some of the key lawmakers on the senate side speak to negotiations on this topic. for example, you've got senator cory booker saying that he's never going to walk away from the negotiating table on this. he's renewing his legislative efforts. his top republican partner in this was senator tim scott of south carolina. an aide close to scott told nbc news he wasn't the one that left the negotiating table and he still encourages his colleagues

on the other side of the aisle to join him in these efforts. when you see people playing the blame game over how the negotiations fell apart in the first place, not heartening to see the compromise come to fruition down the line and the house realities which have significantly changed from the time these negotiations were last revived, now, republicans will control this chamber, and if you look at what people like congressman jim jordan, the head of the judiciary committee, where the legislation, while this was a tragic moment, it's not one where he thinks there's a federal rule to play in rule making. >> here with me now, congresswoman val demings, police chief in orlando, florida. looking at how can we fix this, i know we have had these conversations so many times before. can i start with asking you to put on your congressional hat. is there at least partially a

legislative answer, and where is the best place for it, national, state laws, tell us what laws can do. >> well, chris, it's good to be back with you, and certainly there is usually a legislative role to be played here. you know, i was disappointed that the george floyd justice in policing act fell by the wayside, no, it was not a perfect law, of course not. but it was a major step in the right direction. i'm also disappointed to hear of the blame game that's coming out of congress right now. we've had a young 29-year-old man killed. his mother, his family, his friends, his community grieving. let's get back to the table, and get something done. that's what the community's deserve and that's what the american people deserve. the bottom line is though we know that congress doesn't even have much of an appetite to come up with rules and legislation to protect its own members that were under threat, that's why i

said police executives, sheriffs and chiefs cannot wait. union leadership cannot wait for the legislative fix. while they're hashing it out at the state and federal level, police chiefs and sheriffs need to come to the table and come up with best practices. look internally and modify those policies that need to be modified that will help protect communities but also protect the officers themselves. >> john kasich who was governor of ohio when 12-year-old tamir rice was killed by officers, his state formed a collaborative with activists, police, civil leaders and their goal was to address real reform. here's part of what he said. >> we had the most significant reforms in the country come ouch that collaborative, and it's made a difference in ohio. there are many ways you can stay on top of it. it's not enough to get somebody in there and train them. it has to be consistently monitored and if you have a bad

actor, if you have somebody that's not a good policeman, you have to get rid of them. you have to take the action. >> is he right, and how hard is it to pull off a monitoring system? is that a realistic model for the rest of the country? >> you know, i think that we can do anything that we really want to do. i just did some work with the two years, actually, worth of work with the national policing institute on the council of race and policing where we looked at evidence-based solutions. the bottom line is we have to reimagine, if you will, public safety. that is not just the police role. the police is the community, and the community is the police, and it's going to take all of us and our respective places to come together and develop our rules, our laws, hold our elected officials accountable, our policies and procedures and the proper oversight and accountability to get us to a place where we need to be.

every responsible person ought to look at what happened to tyre nichols. every good law enforcement officer ought to look at what happened to tyre nichols and let's come to the table and develop what we need to to make sure it never happens again. >> we only have a very short time left, but i want to ask you about what we just heard from eddie glaude, if you're going to begin to change culture, changing the face of police does not necessarily change the institution, so what does? >> you know, we can -- now, look, i am a strong advocate because i believe hiring is a major part of it. we've got to get the right men and women in the profession doing job in the first place who have the right temperament. i believe in diversity that departments, just like every other institution should reflect the diversity of the communities in which they solve or serve. but we do know that there is not

one fix through the work of the national policing institute, we found out this evidence-based research that there is not one culture in policing. and invite me back, we can talk more about that. but what you may find is different agencies might have the right rules, regulations, policies and procedures in place, but there is a culture that is toxic in a particular unit, and i think that is exactly what we've seen in memphis, and so, you know, i agree with the professor on the one hand is that there's not one answer to fix all that is going to take a collaborative effort to come together and get this done, but i believe, chris, that we can do it. >> well, i hope you will come back because there's so much more to talk about. former congresswoman val demings, thank you so much. that's going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for chris jansing reports every weekday on msnbc. just moments ago, president biden landed in maryland and was met by the mayor of baltimore,

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. it was may 25th, 2020. cell phone videos taken by bystanders in minneapolis surfaced online showing the police