>> yeah, so the panel sent out a schedule to covered basically the month of february. the argument would be february 23rd. we may not know much about it. we'll be at the khorasan off we see some action there with dollars coming in but it will be hard to learn until there is a real ruling on this, could be weeks away. >> all right, kyle cheney, thank you so much. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner starts right now, good evening. thanks, chris. there are so much to talk about that is happening. >> there is a lot going on. >> a lot. and also nothing of importance going on in terms of legislation. >> in terms of legislation, not much. >> problem solving. there is legislation that is being banded about. but there is actually not the words. >> not a lot of that. >> happening in the lower chamber -- thank, you my friend. and thank you at-home for joining us this evening. tomorrow morning the family of tyre nichols, the 29 year old

fatally beating by police on january 2nd, laid him to rest at the mississippi boulevard church. vice president kamala harris plans to attend according -- reverend al sharpton will deliver the eulogy. and tomorrow night, we will speak with reverend sharpton about how the nichols family and people across the country are grieving in this moment and what justice in this case looks like. but tonight, sharpton, nichols family, and their attorney, benjamin crump, are gathered at the mason temp bowl in memphis. -- in addition to the five police officers that were arrested on a litany of charges including some degree murder -- fired two medics and a lieutenant, who all failed to give tyre nichols medical attention in the immediate aftermath asked the officers who had just beaten him laughed on the sidelines.

in addition to that, the memphis police department confirmed yesterday that two other memphis officers on the scene that night have been suspended since january 8th. one of those two officers is a man named preston hemphill, nichols -- they say he was the one who pulled tyre nichols from his car. he can be seen tasing tyre nichols and the body cam footage that was -- they believe humble is the one who said i hope -- when tyre nichols ran away from them. because that footage was released last week, we know at this moment that the violence it shows stands in a very stark contrast to what is in the police report that officers wrote just hours after they brutalized tyre nichols. and officer wrote that police pulled tyre nichols over because he was driving too quickly. memphis police chief davis has questioned the veracity of that claim. the police report also says tyre nichols was refusing a

lawful detention and that he, quote, swung at an officer and literally had his hand on the officers gone. none of that is shown in the videos. the police report also list martin, one of the five officers charged with second degree murder, it lists him as a victim. it's unclear from the videos house that is even possible. martin, the four other police officers charged, and president have help, we're all members of a special unit of the -- called the scorpion. it was a unit assembled in 2021 and in response to an increase in violent crime in memphis -- it was a special plainclothes unit of the police department and it was focused on reducing violent crimes and seizing cars. officials like the mayor and the new police chief praised the scorpion unit almost immediately. as if it was sort of an overnight success. >> at the end of last year, chief davis created the street

crimes operation to restore peace in our neighborhood unit, scorpion, this addresses violent crimes -- that occurred throughout our city. since its inception this past october threw three days ago, the scorpion unit has had a total of 566 arrests, 390 of them for felonies. they have seized $103,000 in cash, 270 vehicles, and 253 weapons. >> officials say the memphis police department uses crime data to determine which neighborhoods to deploy the cities scorpion teams. but activists say special units like scorpion tend to target low income communities, conducting mass pull overs in those neighborhoods. those units have proliferated and cities across the country as a kind of tough on crime strategy. but there have long been complaints about those special units and in memphis, president

sounded the alarm about scorpions aggressive tactics almost immediately. in fact, a memphis man named cornell walker told the l.a. times this weekend that days before that scorpion team beat tyre nichols to death, this gentleman, cornell walker, was pulled over and accosted by scorpion officers. walker says emmett martin, the officer listed as the, quote, victim in the nichols police report. that he was the man who pulled walker from his car. the l.a. times reports walker and he -- were first approached by the officers. they believed they were being targeted by young guys who wanted to steal their car. walker said he saw officer martin step out of an unmarked police vehicle. i need to see you [bleep] hands or i will blow your head off. walker did not realize they were police at first until he saw their badges and the word scorpion on the back of their

shirts. martin, that is the member of the scorpion unit, came over to their car and pulled walker out, pointing a gun at his head from one foot away. walker told the times. the officer took him to the police car where the other officers also had guns out. walker said he sought martin, justin smith, and haley on the scene and those are three of the officers charged in the nichols case. i said i just came over here to get a pizza, walker said. he, as in martin, did not ever give a reason why he pulled up on the car. that is walker's car. walker decided to call the memphis police department and its internal affairs unit the day after this assault. the internal affairs unit disregarded his complaint. walker told the l.a. times, the sergeant kept justifying it. i was pulled out at gunpoint with these people dressed as undercover cops. how am i supposed to feel? i did not even know they were police. i felt like what happened to tyre nichols was preventable if

internal affairs had taken action. it could've prevented it from happening, i believe. cities across the country have special anti-crime unit just like the scorpion unit. in fulton county, georgia, the unit is also called scorpion, though they are now considering changing that name. in new york city, they are called give or gone involved violence elimination. in baltimore, it is the gun trace task force. tyre nichols and his death, has horrified the nation and it is drawn attention to the work of these special crime units. so, what happens now? joining us now is -- cofounder and ceo of the center for policing equity and chair of the african american studies and professor of psychology at yale university. also -- president of the naacp legal defense fund. thank you both for joining me this evening as we talk about a

complicated issue, but one that is, as we see, based on the events of the last week, ever more urgent. philip, professor, i want to start with your reaction to the story that is being reported in the l.a. times from cornell walker, a man who sounds like he had in some ways, a similar experience, at least at the outset, with the scorpion unit. absolute confusion. overly aggressive response. obviously a different outcome. what is your thought when you hear the details of his story and philip, i will start with you. >> the details of the story are not surprising. they are not uncommon. if you recall, during the terroristic reign of stop, and frisk in new york, there are constant stories that people would not believe until there is videotape of it. until there is videotape of a young man who had been pulled over, stop, questioned, three different times. the special the sort of urban crime or gun units --

they have a habit of causing incredible damage individually, in terms of the community. and then costing taxpayers a lot of money. folks forget that the rampart scandal in the 1990s in lapd, that was the crash unit, which also had an acronym that sounded like something that would be good, but was bad. plus 100 $25 million. the gun trace task force that you mentioned and bali to more recently cost $13 million to baltimore residents. these are responses to narratives of fear that black folks are coming to do damage to you. but usually happens is police do damage to those black communities and end up paying out money. and yet they get celebrated a successful. and all of it is in part because we only ask police to drive down the crime as if the way you drive it down is what you do afterwards, as opposed to using the data from where crime is happening to say, those must be communities that don't have enough investment. they don't have enough

resources. so we can give the people the things they need so they don't need to cry out in crisis in the first place. and that, at the root, is the thing that actually reduces crime. >> to that and, -- this is exposed because of the race of the officers involved. the culture of violence, the culture of anti-blackness that is embedded in the structure of policing and specifically in these anti-crime units. how do we tackle this problem? what is the conversation back -- inside policing units and in a city like memphis, where there is very much a dialogue about how to better involve the community about criminal justice reform might look like, about what policing should look like? >> excellent question. and i want to take a moment just to extend my condolences to the nichols family this evening on the eve of the funeral of tyre nichols. this does give us an opportunity to re-examine the

investments of public safety. and to think about what do we actually need police for? and if you really are logical about the question, if you think about what supposedly happened this night with tyre nichols, a alleged traffic stop, we do not need a gang, and that's what they were, a gang of officers, ripping him out of his car, tasing him, beating him, chasing him down, over an alleged traffic violation. it is not lost on me that this happened in memphis, which is the sight of a case that legal defense fund one in 1985 about fleeing felons, which establish that you cannot use deadly force against a fleeing felon if that felon is posing no danger. in this case, we had a fully innocent man, as far as we know. there is nothing to suggest that tyre nichols was engaged in anything other than an

attempt to get home safely. and instead, he was interrupted by a gang of police officers, who seemed intent on wreaking havoc on this young man for no apparent reason. and so, we need to ask yourself the question, do we need police pulling over every day citizens for any reason whatsoever? we don't. do we need police returning -- going to people to check on wellness? armed police? do we need police intervening when there is a mental health crisis? we do not. what we need our alternative responders, people who are trained in social services, people who are trained and behavioral science, people who can actually help, who can actually protect and serve, not harass, not ultimately, in the most egregious instances, kill. >> to that end, this unit was supposed to be dealing with homicides. this was supposed to be a violent crime unit. the two anecdotes that i have heard from specifically the

scorpion unit in memphis. one man was sitting with a friend getting a pizza. the other man was in his car, displaying no outward probable cause, for the police to not only come at him, but you ultimately kill him, to beat him, to do what they did that we saw well-documented on body cam footage. so, what is happening that these specialized units believe they can -- they have the support of local law enforcement. there's a reason we play the sound from the mayor and from the police chief. this was seen as a successful model for memphis. why -- what strategies where they employing and why were they seen a successful? you say, and i think rightly so, it is not a surprise that they were targeting innocent people like this? this is something that was documented, if not at the center of the national media spotlight, surely the higher ups in law enforcement had to know that this was not a unit without blemish. >> oh, i'm sure that they did. i'm sure -- as we have said, residents were

absolutely saying, hey, we have problems here from almost the jump of the unit. but part of the sort of give away is in the way the mayor touted the success. numbers of arrests, numbers of felonies. we're evaluating law enforcement for the things that they can get away with charging people for. not numbers of convictions. not numbers of folks who are in last crisis. now the metrics of actual safety. the metrics of punishment. and so, as long as all we have is metric to punishment, that for sure, law enforcement looks like a huge success. but you got right to the core of one of the issues here. if the real reason to have a scorpion unit and by the way, i don't care what the acronym is, if you have as a poisonous predator as the name for the thing you are using state dollars for, don't think that is going to end up with a lot of safety going on. right? wasn't at the scorpion who stabbed the frog and they all drowned in the river in the first place? but if you got a scorpion unit whose job it is to deal with

the most violent crime, the murder spike that we saw during the height of the pandemic, there is no justification for low level traffic enforcement. but the reason they are doing it in those neighborhoods is they know -- they will get enough people with enough stuff in the car, they can charge them. the mayor can be proud of the numbers. the community can feel safe. it is a pr vicious cycle. until we start actually asking questions about what the safety means. and exactly as folks in oakland have been saying and folks in chicago and philly have been saying. we need to use police for less. for the things that we could possibly train them for. and by the way, get them out of the things that they themselves have said they want out of. mental health, unhoused folks. and for sure at a low level traffic, which is most dangerous by the officer and in this case, deadly for one motorist. >> can i just ask you, when we talk about what safety means, there is a generational divide on this. is there not? especially in memphis, the

atlantic has some great reporting on this. older residents of some of these communities want to see a strong police presence. younger members in these communities are kind of woke to this idea -- and i don't mean that pejoratively at all. but they are aware of the sort of systemic abuses in the criminal justice system and in law enforcement. they are much more wary of a heavy police presence or even a police presence in their neighborhoods, given the history here. it seems like it is more complicated than just this is what safety means to this community because that seems like a matter of debate. am i overstating that? >> no. i would add complication to your complication. for sure, the polling says that. but i'm not sure the polling gets out the right question. the reason why you have older black folks that are now in that demographic now who will say, yes, we want a police presence, is because not only how they've been around for the slogan of defund the police, but they lived through defund the education system. and defund mental health hospitals. and defend public safety.

that comes in the form of drug issues and un-housed resources. they have been defunded so that the only thing they have left that -- are the police. if you take the police away, what they're saying as you've taken away literally everything and we have no faith that want to take money away you will give it back in any form to these communities. they have left the right kind of terrorism of disinvestment in their communities. during the height of the 1980s and 1990s when we saw a huge investment in law enforcement from what causes the political left in this country, black folks we're only saying we want tougher punishment for these folks who are taking over the streets, they were also saying, and we would love if you would invest in the community so we don't have to call out in crisis in the first place. we mostly don't tell that history. that message was mostly lost on politicians who are scared of talking about it. and we are now at a point where we say, well, there must be a generational divide. there is an experience of

disinvestment. younger generations grew up in this disinvestment. and older generations have watched it unfold. so, folks are more scared to give up any money that is coming into those communities at all. >> that makes absolute sense. i need to ask you, it's not just obviously memphis that has the scorpion unit. there are similar units in new york city. they have just sort of revamped there's, it's called give, which sounds nice. there's one in georgia, fulton county, baltimore. do you think the death of tyre nichols will prompt a real surl -- soul searching? or does each city tell themselves a different story? >> it should. there it is quite disheartening to hear that governor hochul in new york it's considering expanding these types of units. that is absolutely the wrong thing to do. that is the wrong direction to go in. we should be reducing the footprint of police in our society overall, not expanding them and certainly not funding and deputizing of these

specialized units that operate outside the bounds of general oversight and authority. most police units and regular police officers have to adhere to -- these units are invited to infiltrate communities in ways that are extraordinarily dangerous to them and those people. and i will say that what is particularly pernicious about the specialized unit is they are deployed in the most under-resourced communities. and once that are relatively defenseless because of that. they have the least amount of capacity and ability to report the injustices that they experience, to rally the resources to push back against this violence and against this terrorism visited upon them by the state. and that makes it easy. you can get an easy win against a vulnerable community. if you were to take that same

specialized unit and bring it to a different community, more resources -- and wealthy community, you would never see the same results. those units would be disbanded immediately. here, you only see them in the communities that are already suffering and already vulnerable. and we need to examine this predatory policing that is, at the end of the day, foundational to our policing system overall. >> i will say, cell phone footage and body cam footage are not substitutes for the resources these communities need to report injustices. right? we may know about tyre nichols because of body cam footage, but that is not a substitute for what should actually happen and prevent this from happening again. -- and -- president of the and a little ac peeling all the fans find, thank you both so much. >> thank you. >> much more ahead tonight. i will be joined live onset by one of the senior investigators who served on the january six committee. what he has to say about the investigations finding.

that is coming up. but next, george santos really hopes everyone will just forget that he has lied about basically everything. and so does kevin mccarthy. pod save america's dan pfeiffer will join me to discuss. stick around. stick around hi, i'm tony hawk, and like many of you, i take a statin to reduce cholesterol, but statins can also deplete coq10 levels. that's why my doctor recommended qunol coq10. qunol has the number one cardiologist recommended form of coq10. qunol. the brand i trust. my mental health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements. ingrezza is different. it's the simple, once-daily treatment proven to reduce td that's #1 prescribed. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose

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credibility when you put

someone who is under a state, local, federal investigation as a representative of -- i'm talking about george santos. >> congress is broken. i think your listeners and viewership understand what proxy voting was. they never took place. >> i'm asking about your santos. >> i know you're asking me a question. >> you could put it to a vote. >> i appreciate if you let me answer. what i'm trying to do is change some of these committees as well. like the intel community is -- >> you're just not answer my question? >> you don't get a question whether i answered it. you ask a question. i'm trying to -- >> i don't think you said the name george santos once. >> you know once? >> you're talking about proxy voting and other things. >> never speak his name. do not speak his name! that was how speaker kevin mccarthy attempting to bluster his way through a question about republican congressman and serial fabulist george santos. interviews like that may be why we got the news today that george santos is taking a step back after a private meeting with the speaker mccarthy last

night, congressman santos announced today that he would temporarily recuse himself from his committee assignments while continuing to resist calls for his resignation. that decision comes after we learned this weekend that the fbi has officially asked the ftc, the federal elections committee, not to take any actions regarding santos's alleged campaign finance violations, not because they think george santos is innocent, but because the fbi has opened its own criminal investigation into george santos. today we learned that santos's campaign treasurer officially resigned her position last week. now, right around the time of that resignation, george santos's campaign fiery yield paperwork to hire a new person as camp a treasure, a person who later said he did not want that job. and he never authorized anyone to file that paperwork on his behalf. so, yes, not eager to be filling a particular position. today, congressman santos sat down for his second televised interview since the scandals broke. his first interview did not go so well, with fox news, as in

the fox news. they grilled him over his numerous lies. this time, george santos waited to even friendlier and fringy are waters over at the right wing one america news network, where he was not asked about any of his falsehoods, but things still managed to get sort of awkward. >> history has shown that the american people can pretty much forgive anything. but that starts with a sincere apology normally, a lot of remorse shown. prevailing opinion is you have not yet shown that. >> you know, i don't know what you mean by that. >> i do! none of this is going very well for george santos. in fact, all of it is incredibly embarrassing for george santos and the party that he is a part of. the gop. so, why is george santos still in congress? well, he is still in congress

because kevin mccarthy holds the speakers gavel by only five votes. he needs every single one of them, including george santos is. if that reality in mind, mccarthy is turning a blind mic to the most deceptive member of his party and also paying heed to the most nihilistic one. that is why speaker mccarthy is allowing the republican house to take the nations economy hostage in a standoff over the debt ceiling. he is literally looking over the edge to financial catastrophe and showing no indication that he is willing to turn his caucus back. tomorrow, speaker mccarthy is set to meet with president biden to discuss the debt ceiling. president biden has already said he refuses to let republicans use the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip. ahead of that meeting, biden has one message and one message alone for the embattled republican majority leader, show me your budget and i will show you mine. joining us now is dan pfeiffer, former senior white house adviser to president obama and co-host of the wildly

successful pod save america. dan, thank you for being here, my friend. i really -- for those of you who have not read your wonderful, illuminating posts on substack, i highly recommend them. but one of the things that is so eye-opening is your comparison -- well, lessons learned between the last time a democratic white house had to negotiate with republican hostage takers. if you could sort of paraphrase, summarize, the wisdom that you gleaned between 2011 and 2013 as a member of the obama administration. >> absolutely. and thank you for having me. back in 2011, the tea party republicans had just taken over and they, just like kevin mccarthy and george santos and this crew, so that they were not going to raise the debt limit without some -- extracting some concessions from the president around spending or deficits -- they were pretty vague about what they wanted, but they wanted a big fight. and separate from that, speaker boehner, who came to president obama and said, what if we just

try to come to a big agreement where we would do some long term deficit reduction and we could do some things in the short term to help the economy grow during the great recession? president obama took him up on that. on that -- you take a gamble to have that conversation with him. had a conversation. it fell apart. and the country came so close to defaulting that the economy took a massive hit. people lost their jobs. -- growth got hurt and we suffered our first ever default -- downgrade in our credit rating. huge disaster. the lesson the president and then vice president biden recognized, you cannot have a fair, good negotiation with a gun to your head. that is exactly what the debt limit is. a gun to your head. economic terrorism. legislative terrorism. it is deeply dangerous. >> i mean, the other part of it is, who are you going to negotiate with? first of all, you're talking about a group of people that have no idea what they want, although they are putting medicare, medicaid, and social security on the table. but they have no interlocutor.

kevin mccarthy holds the speakers gavel by one vote. effectively, a vote of no confidence gets him out of there. it's not officially called that, but that's what i will call it. if you are biden in this situation, there are the lessons from the obama administration. but there's also, who could even negotiate with? what does he do in this instance? do you think he can actively stake out a position or it's like, i will not talk to about this? democrats already, like joe manchin are saying, we got to be reasonable, that is not how he sounds, but you know. >> that is kind of how we found. he absolutely can and has to take a risk. you're exactly right. let's just hypothetically say, and this is going to stretch the bounds of credulity, but that kevin mccarthy was a serious, substantive person of good faith with whom president biden could strike a deal, even if they had that deal, there's no evidence that kevin mccarthy kind of deliver the votes for that deal. he'd be more likely to lose the speakership then be able to get

that deal on the floor of the house and pass. even if negotiation was not a terrible idea, which i think it is, it would not matter since there was no one to negotiate with and i have no idea what they want to negotiate about. and so, here is the simple message. the president -- it was president obama's message in 2013, when the republicans tried to strike again -- raising the debt limit is congress's job. it is not into a spending, deficits. it is simply a procedural vote to allow the treasury department to pay the bills that congress has already incurred. if you want a big negotiation or a big fight over the budget bill, the spending bill, come -- let's do that. but let's take the danger of default, -- to undoing all of the progress we have made since the pandemic, by putting the risk of -- take that inside, then we will have a conversation. you do your job. and you are welcome to come down here and have a meeting with me. we will hammer something out. >> can i just highlight the

fact also, setting aside the actual negotiations, the fact that republicans are openly saying, let me tell about trimming or slashing the social safety net at a moment when even president trump realizes that it is politically suicidal and i must highlight for those who do not know, the rnc is telling the gop that they need to double down on pushing restrictive abortion bans in order to win in 2024. this party and the elders, if there are any that are actually sailing the ship with her hands in the captains we'll, is living, it seems, in a parallel universe. just political reality would tell, you don't say slashing medicare and social security and pushing restrictive abortion bans out loud in the year 2023. how do you think they are thinking about this? i truly don't understand what the logic is behind all of this. >> they are not thinking. this ties to what you said about george santos again. they are only --

it's not some ideological agenda or some policy preference. it is to own the lips. this is the ultimate example of this. try to have this big fight to win something. they don't even know what they want to win. social security or medicare cuts? defense cuts? increasing defense spending? is it defunding -- like jordan tweeted about the other day. they have no idea. there is a principle here. and that is you cannot allow one half of one branch of congress to use the threat of a global financial crisis to extract policy concessions that they cannot get through the normal electoral process. they did not win a governing majority. they don't have the house and the senate. they don't have a veto proof majority. and so, if president biden were to negotiate with them, if it were to come to some sort of concession to reward this behavior and maybe they get cut in the budget or education or whatever it is that makes them happy, what happens next time? federal abortion ban? is it book bans? is it on doing the law that was

just passed, preserving marriage equality? you can't allow that to happen. there is a normal legislative process. this is not part of it. president biden is exactly right. all the polling shows is the most political high ground possible for this fight -- >> this is not the normal legislative process. and by the way, this is not normal, period. dan pfeiffer, former senior white house adviser to president obama and coast of pot save america, great to see you, my friend. thank you for coming on the show. >> thank you. >> still ahead this hour, the latest from ron desantis's florida where a new battle has emerged in the conservative culture wars. that is next. stay with us. with us suffering from sinus congestion, especially at night? try vicks sinex for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving nasal congestion and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. try vicks sinex. >> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy.

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college in sarasota, florida, opened its doors to its very first class of 100 students. it was named new college. and a big part of the school's mission was to be inclusive. by adopting an open admissions program that would not discriminate based on race, creed, national origin, or cultural status. it was a novelty in a state that was once part of the slave owning confederacy. today, new college of florida ranks number three and a princeton review of public colleges and universities that make an impact in the community.

the school only has about 700 students. many of whom identify as non heterosexual. in fact, that is one of the specifically inclusive things about the college. students get to decide their gender identity without judgment. in the state of florida. you probably see where this is going. new college of florida has become the new target of governor ron desantis in his culture war. he thinks that because the school is funded by taxpayers, it ought to have a conservative identity. a conservative, christian identity, which is not what it has had or has ever had. and to carry out this mission, governor desantis has appointed six new members to the new colleges board of trustees. including christopher ruffo, a conservative activist who has led the battle against critical race theory in public schools across the u.s.. and matthew spalding, the dean of hillsdale college, a conservative christian school that is serving as a model for desantis's plan to take over higher education in the state of florida.

these men along with four others now make up the majority of the board of new college. and they are not wasting any time. this afternoon, they held their very first official meeting. before it even started, the endgame was clear. >> the legislature has agreed to authorize immediately $15 million for new college for recruiting new faculty and for scholarships for students. you will have a situation where you will be able to go out, recruit people to come, say hey, here's the mission, here's what we're looking to do. you have people asking, how do i apply? >> that money, the $50 million the governor was talking about, that is to hire new faculty for new college. in that same event, governor desantis announced new reforms for higher education in florida, once that will eliminate diversity, equity, and inclusion, and critical race theory. and make sure that, quote, core courses are rooted in western

tradition. sitting next to governor desantis was christopher rousseau, who just hours later, carried out the governor's mandate by immediately calling for the abolition of the new college office for outreach and inclusive excellence. he claims that diversity divides people. >> one of the items that i discuss today with governor desantis and the legislators present is that diversity, equity, and inclusion, which sounds great, but in practice divides people and offers separate judgments on the basis of race and identity. >> [inaudible] >> my opinion does matter. unfortunately for you. >> my opinion does matter. unfortunately for you. christopher ruffo is right. he is now part of a conservative majority taking over a new college of florida and while there is resistance in the form of rallies and protests, he and his conservative cohort now have the power to make a needy change. and their first order of

business today, hours ago, was to fire new colleges president and replace her with former florida education secretary richard corcoran. chard corcoran the takeover has begun. we will be right back. we will be right back. when you stay at a vrbo you always get the whole home not part of it but the whole upstairs the whole downstairs the whole fridge

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the people who planned and attended the attack on the capitol. one of those senior investigators on the red team, jeanine sasse oh, is now sounding the alarm, saying that the january 6th attack was not just a insurrection to keep donald trump in power, it was an attack on democracy as a whole. -- it was not just that they want to contest a supposedly stolen election, as trump called them to do, they wanted to punish the judges, the members of congress, and law enforcement agencies of so-called political elites who had discredited trump's claims. now we have seen that kind of violence beyond january 6th and we have seen it play out across the country. yesterday, in new mexico, a grand jury indicted failed republican state candidate for targeting and shooting the homes of several democratic officials. last week, california officials released body cam footage of the brutal attack on paul pelosi, the husband of the former speaker of the house. that attack by an extremist and the able lever in a big lie.

over the summer, a man who stormed the capitol on january 6th -- he shot at an fbi field office in ohio. there are countless other examples. january 6th was not an isolated incident. it was a symptom of a much broader a deeply entrenched problem in the united states. joining me now is james sasso. he served as a senior investigative counsel for the senior investigative january six committee and worked on drafting its report. mr. sasso, thank you for being here. >> -- >> it obviously did not and on the steps of the capital or inside the capitol that. day it continues on. the first thing i want to ask -- because you were involved in the drafting of this -- you mentioned this in your op-ed. do you think that the focus of the report, and genuinely generally speaking with the committee's report, was too much on the actions of the former president? and not enough about the systemic problems that have taken root in american society? at hav taken root i>> i think we were y successful and how we will frame the report to focus on the former president. when you think about just the

amount of resources we, had the limited amount of time we had, thinking even in terms of what the american public is willing to listen to and understand, it would be very hard to tell a 50-year story about how the rioters identities were challenged, how this fell out of favor, and how they learned to distrust the federal government. >> yeah. >> but what we have really needed to do is focus on the immediate threat that president trump really brought to light and what he did by inciting the riot. and so i think it was right to focus on him and it was a story that was very powerful for the american public. it is not that we ignored all these other topics in any sense of the word. in our investigation, we asked witnesses. we would ask the defendants we were talking, to what brought you here then -- more than just president trump? >> yeah. >> it is there in our documents

and an hour materials, and even when we -- on these topics. but we thought it was a very important to -- >> focus on the president. >> focus on the president -- >> -- on the thing that is in our immediate front of you never. but i have to ask -- you use the time frame 50 years. it would be hard to -- 50 years, which suggests that this has been brewing for sometime. and i want to get into what you learned talking to these, people who were so animated by the struggle, that they felt the need to foment revolution. you mentioned disinformation. i'm not going to say -- i, mean it sounds like it is likely minimized in this op-ed. i want to want to follow up on that. he said, a few of the defendants we interviewed complaint being misled by social media, which seems to have pushed them into conspiracy theory rabbit holes like qanon. that does not sound like the sort of poison of misinformation was the gateway drug to the insurrection. how important is it to combat that? what else did you see as

leading them to this insurrection? >> i hope i was not minimizing it. because it is incredibly important that we do something about the way that our citizens consume information and where that information is coming from. but i think we have to think backwards, a little further. so, this is why i said 50 years. it comes out a lot of my research when i was writing my dissertation. you can only think of -- being susceptible to these kinds of thoughts to qanon -- we have to wonder, why so many people were willing to risk and listen to president trump's big lie in 2020. >> yeah. >> but also tell all the lies he was telling before that, and all of the horrible rhetoric -- you have to think, why are people getting on board with that? what about their identity? what about their political views leads them to be susceptible to qanon? so, that is the 50 years i was talking about. but yes, as an immediate problem, now that we have people who are willing to listen to that information, and

believe it over the institutions of government and the institutions of education -- media being an institution. so, this distrust in how all the rioters felt, it goes further -- >> and deeper -- >> and deeper. we talked to a lot of the defendants. they would have similar talk tracks about, well, you know, i was not that political. but the government really was not there for me. it was for other people. and those are what i note as -- >> the breakdown in terms of the government being responsive to people's needs. where did racial animus fit into all this? >> that's the nice part. we would hear about blm as almost equated to a terrorist organization, that wanted to burn down cities. and it is not. and at the same time, a lot of the defendants were talking about how they wanted government work for everybody. and it was impossible for them to understand that the black

lives matter movement had those same ideals behind it. and that is a lot of the racial animus that exist and that's also tied into the distrust of the federal government that i mentioned. there is a lot of what we call in political science layered reasoning here. so, you can think of people seeing the federal government work for rich people rather than the ordinary americans. that is one level that does. it for small businesses, it could be the corporations getting big tax cuts. for a lot of white americans, who felt left behind in the 60s and 70s, it is their view that the government turned to benefiting -- >> the elites? >> the elites. and black and brown people from time to -- sort of, these problems that they see layered on top of each other, let them susceptible to a lot of political rhetoric that sort of hijacked those anxieties. >> and those emotions -- >> and those emotions. >> james sasso, senior

investigative counsel on the january six committee. it's really important work that you did. and it's all in the report itself. so, combing through it. thank you for your time tonight. >> -- >> we will read it. we will be right back. will be right back. refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. ♪customize and save♪ only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪ known as a passionate artist. known for loving the outdoors. known for getting everyone together. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 16 types of cancer, including certain early-stage cancers. one of those cancers is triple-negative breast cancer.

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