♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a potential sign today that the work of special counsel jack smith and the two probes into the conduct of the disgraced twice-impeached ex-president will moving full speed ahead. spotted at a d.c. courthouse today where a grand jury is meeting, conservative activist tom fitton. nbc news one prosecutor from special prosecutor's jack smith owes office. while we do not know exactly why mr. fitton was at the courthouse today, here's what we do know about him. fitton has been an outsize adviser to the ex-president with a key role in both the documents investigation and the story of the january 6th insurrection and everything that led to it. fitton was among a select group

of people that included roger stone and steve bannon urging trump to declare victory regardless of the results, the actual legal results, of the 2020 election. now the january 6th select committee cites a memo that fitton wrote for trump in the run-up to election day, i think the summer before the election, as evidence that in the words of committee member zoe love gren friend the big lie was untensional, promeditated and a plan concocted in advance. here's a snippet from the january 6th select committee's final hearing. >> a few days before the election, mr. trump also consulted with one of husband outside advisers inside activist tom fitton about the strategy for election night. the select committee got this pre-prepared statement from the national archives. as you can see, the draft statement, which was sent on october 31st, declares we had an

election today and i won, and the fitton memo specifically indicates a plan that only the votes counted by the election day deadline, and there is no election day deadline, would matter. everyone knew the ballot counting would lawfully continue past election day. claiming that the count on election night must stop before millions of votes were counted was, as we now know, a key part of the president's pre-meditated plan. on election day, just after 5:00 p.m., mr. fitton indicated he had spoken with the support about the statement sending along again, just talk to them about the draft below. again, this plan to keep -- to declare victory was in place before any of the results had been determined. >> so fitton's role as an

outside adviser continued after that mess, even after the coup and donald trump eventually leaves the white house, and there's also reporting that suggests that fitton pushed the ex-president to resist efforts by the nag archives and doj to retrieve presidential records. it's a decision by trump that led directly to doj's criminal investigation into him. cnn reported this back in august, quote, knots long after the national archives acknowledged in february that it had retrieved 15 boxes of presidential records from former president trump's mar-a-lago residence in florida, trump began fielding calls from tom fitton, a prominent conservative activist. fitton, the longtime head of the legal activist group judicial watch had a simple message for trump. it was a mistake to give the records to the archives and his team should never have let the archives, quote, strong arm him into returning them. that's according to three sources familiar with the matter. a key player in doj's twin probes into donald trump at the

courthouse today is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "washington post" investigations reporter hand msnbc contributy jackie alameny is here, also harry lipman, a former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general and here at the table with us for the hour, former maryland congresswoman and msnbc contributor donna edwards. great to have you here in the studio. >> thank you for that. >> we'll talk about the last time you were here, it was pre end of the world as we knew t.jackie, i want to start with you. when tim haify was here i asked him about the nature of fit-in's communications with the white house and how far back they went. i think they presented from the summer before trump loses in the general, and this was the response. >> the evidence slides back to july from tom fitton where they were planning to call the election rigged and you can look

at bill barr's efforts as part of the incitement. was it his testimony after the fact was so valuable that you took everyone willing to make the case against trump? >> what attorney barr did right after the election in authorizing u.s. attorneys to conduct voter fraud investigations before an election was certified at the time were criticized as helping the president or was a partisan move. >> then president. >> different from prior practice. i think he knew going in that there was going to be controversy, before the president ranted before the election this would be riddled with fraud. there were going to be questions about the legitimacy of the election. >> so barr's conduct, his appearance on media outlets, fitton's e-mails, all the groundwork that played the summer before the general election takes place and voting in america commences is part of what you would imagine the special counsel's

evidence-gathering around intent and intent to perpetrate a fraud on the american people to be. what might -- and we'll take the two probes because we don't know why mr. fitton was there, but we'll take the two probes separately. what might the significance be if he's there answering questions about january 6th. >> nicole, that's a really good question. tom fitton was not someone who was covered in depth as some of the other players during the january 6th congressional committee's investigation, but he is someone who is extremely influential. we know that he in part co-founded groundswell with ginni thomas, groundswell a group of high-powered conservative activists that secretly convened and formed in part to sort of fight the establishment and fight the establishment conservatives from becoming more progressive, and we know in the lead up to january 6th months before the

election was even over, as evidenced in that email that you just mentioned, that fitton and others were already sort of exploring some of these legal maneuvers to overturn the results of the election or at least delegitimize joe biden. you know, in addition, tom fitton had and has the former president's ear. he's someone who trump was listening to, was potentially serving as a liaison to these conservative groups to people like ginni thomas and others who were simultaneously engaging in efforts to get the states to overturn the results of the election by signing on to the fake scheme of electors plan being implemented, so tom fitton had his hands in a lot of different plans that were playing out all in the effort to overturn the results of the election in favor of former president trump many. >> and harry, importantly to jackie's reporting, he was part

of the premeditation of declaring the result fraudulent and corrupt regardless of knowing whether or not there was any fraud in the count. it was part of -- it's what trump says to doj, just, quote, declare it corrupt and my gop allies will declare it the rest, part of the premeditation that if he didn't win an overwhelming victory or even a small victory, they would declare the results fraudulent and duke them out in the court. that's tom fitton's life. that's what he's done. used the court to gum up politics. >> 100%. this guy is quite a character, nicole. one of the most prolific tweeters in the country in the whole eight months leading up to the election propounding the big lie and other disinformation, and as you say, when all the grown-ups scurry and he has to rely on the likes of rudy giuliani and sydney powell, he is also, is ninthon, in the room as best as i can tell. i don't think this guy is even a lawyer. he's only a conservative

activist, and at this point he was saying all kinds of just declare victory, et cetera. he also figured centrally in mar-a-lago. he's the main guy telling trump just say you can declassify anything, et cetera, and the most intriguing possibility here, raw speculation, but what's been missing to date from the big trump potential prosecutions are cooperating witnesses. he's someone who potentially could be low enough that he has something to gain by high enough that he can give good information as to trump on both but especially mar-a-lago because he seems to have had conversations with him where -- where implicitly at least trump would have been knowing that he's not supposed to keep these documents. >> so donna, and this is so on brand for maga world, but he gave his advice on tv. let me play you the advice that mr. fitton gave donald trump on the documents case. >> i would take the position, i

ain't no law, but we've been fighting federal records cases for 30 years at judicial watch, that these are personal records. he took them with them as president as his prerogative is. they are not classified. they are not presidential records. it's all a scam. >> i think the raid was a fraud and abuse and a sham. thereto was no good faith basis to target trump here with this outrageous raid, and all those records he has are his records and they should stop pretending just because they think they are presidential records and they think it's classified, you know, that's -- that's the final answer, and it ain't. it's whether or not a president or vice president has the right to take records with him when they leave the white house, and prior to the national archives and the biden justice department deciding to change precedent, their prior position and ignore the law and harass trump, that was what presidents could do.

>> obviously what he gets wrong is what doj took to a court who approved the surge was 15 months of obstruction of an effort to return the classified documents that were taken with trump so he's as much under investigation for obstruction of the effort to regain the documents as he is for having them in the first place, but what do you make of his appearance today and what it could possibly significant snowfall. >> well, i think tom fitton may indeed have been the trump whisperer, the silent partner all along, both with respect to mar-a-lago but also laying the foundation for trump's fake elector scheme, for denying the election, for, you know, sort of holding fast to the idea that he had won and was promoting that, and so i think harry is right, that, tom fitton may be at just the right level that he's not

willing to do prison time for donald trump. he has a history and judicial watch has a long history litigating and fighting every single thing, and so it's not a surprise to me that he came out swinging like that, but he may indeed be laying the foundation for trump and showing that there was an intent all along both on the records but also on the election scheme. >> you know, jackie. i keep coming back to -- i headache to make these declarative statement on this show, that he doesn't see any outcome other than the criminal prosecution of donald trump once they have poured through all the evidence that they gathered with the single stipulation being that they have more tools than congress has. they could find evidence that excuses trump's behavior. he finds that highly unlikely and leaves that possibility out there, but the idea that they

are just now getting to fitton, does that signal that they are getting to the pre-meditation? does that signal that they are getting to everything that was planned before our country had an election and went to the polls? >> i think it does, and i think i should state that i really do feel like fitton is just as important and -- and informative to the doj in the january 6th investigation as he is with the mar-a-lago classified documents investigation, but -- but tim haify is exactly right. the doj has at their disposal more tools and the stakes are much higher in terms of actually cooperating with an ongoing criminal investigation, and you're going to see i think a lot more cooperation, and we already have, than you saw people who just completely ignored some of the subpoena issued by congress. i do think it's telling that now some of the people who are

coming in are some people who are higher up on the totem pole who were in direct communication with the president, and i'm extremely curious to know what the line of questioning is, but, again, do i imagine it touched both subjects. i mean, i spoke with tom fitton actually in december when we were working on this deep dive about trump's post-presidency life and sort of the structure he's created that has allowed him to sort of continue to flout norms regularly, and tom fitton is a part of that. you know, he told me despite that extended clip that you just played, nicole, that he wasn't necessarily advocating for trump to not cooperate with the subpoena, but he felt that the basis of the subpoena was illegitimate and that trump did not need to -- that these records were personal and that was the legal advice he was providing to trump despite the fact that he isn't a lawyer and we do know and we have previously reported that the department of justice is really interested in learning, you know, what exactly trump thought

and those conversations that he had around trying to formulate an external strategy to combat the narrative that was being formed around his refusal to give back these classified documents. >> harry, this is what the january 6th report says about this time line that jacuzzi focusing in on. the committee has assembled a range of evidence of trump's pre-planning for a false declaration of victory this. includes multiple written communications on october had 31st and november 23rd 2020 by the white house to judicial watch tom fitton. this evidence demonstrates fitton was in direct contact with trump and understand that trump would falsely declare victory on election night and call for vote-counting to stop. that's exactly what trump does. i think i was out here in the studio when he went out and did that. you take that with some of the transcripts, general mark millie's transcript was

released, right, before the committee shut down the first day of january, and there's a line in there where he acknowledges, you know, we've leave that mess for the next guy, knows that there's going to be a different president. cassidy hutchinson's dramatic testimony in the final public hearing that is that scene on the cole made it where she's with mark meadows and trump walks up to them and says i don't know anyone to know we lost, mark, knows he lost. don't want anyone to find out that the american president has lost and will be replaced. it seems that the committee was really signaling all this evidence it had gathered from key witnesses, people in direct contact with trump on a regular basis, including in writing, about his knowledge that he had lost which would prove that he intentionally lied to the american people. why does that matter? >> well, if he intentionally lied to the american people it's one of the evidence of the crimes. the single achievement of the january 6th committee was to take what seemed a murky hard-to-prove but indispensable

element, his intent, and really drive it home six different ways. on the january 6th, just two point to mention. everything you said about hutchinson and the statement to meadows is the strongest stuff of intent. it's not clear why fitton is all over this stuff. it's not clear that he has much in the way of direct communication with trump, so on intent he's more of a secondly player, it seems to me, but we will see. not necessarily in mar-a-lago. however, on january 6th. he's definitely a fellow traveler with guys like stone and bannon, and if eventually there's a way to do a conspiracy that links up trump to the actual harm on the ground and the proud boys and oath keepers and the marauders, it almost certainly goes to sort of a bridge, the willard room war room and such that involves stone, bannon and guys like fitton, so that in that way he may be part of the building

blocks as well. >> harry, we've talked around and around and i know you felt like i was too exasperated earlier in the week so i'll try to keep my wits about me, but why would fitton be going in now? if you were examining a false electors plot, why wouldn't you have already poken to fitton if you're doj? >> first, you may have. this is all so opaque with the doj and they may have spoken before. fbi might have come into the field but why now? it may be that i think if i am smith i'm doing everything i can to crack the big nult that he doesn't have yet as for as we can tell, a cooperating witness. it would great, for example, to get mark meadows, but, you know, mark meadows is high up and isn't going do it. one reason might be, first, it's to test the premise a little. we don't know it's the first time but second, one reason. i don't have anything concrete but it fits the overall timeline of what smith is doing. it's because they are really putting the screws to them

telling them they are going to charge him, and he is discussing the possibility of cooperating. that would be the most exciting you could say for why he's there now. >> the most exciting. harry, or the most plausible. tell me what would come before and after a fitton appearance because as you rightly point out we simply have little dots of a contellation, we don't have the whole picture. what could he be part of and maybe start with january 6th and then take me over to mar-a-lago? >> fine. first, i think mar-a-lago is the most important because he's the guy who trump is taking the calls for when he's ignoring everyone else and he's giving him, you know, unbelievable bankrupt and false legal advice so he's very strong on the obstruction intent that brushing is violating known legal orders. he just figures more generally on january 6th, but what could be happening now? could be one of a series of talks tore could be they are talking seriously with his

lawyer about terms of a cooperation agreement and the next thing that would happen is he would sign, it go into the grand jury and say everything he knows so they flees him in and they have him where they want him, so either this very, you know, exciting and concrete step, preparery to testify about trump or one more talking with fbi about what he knows and doesn't know and not so noteworthy and separate from everything else, if that's the way they are going now. it's basically in his call, but you can expect that smith is redoubling and re-redoubling efforts to get cooperating witnesses which seems -- you don't count cassidy hutchinson because she's an honest witness, in other words, to put leverage on potential people who face criminal charges to testify against trump. that's the big piece missing right now. >> i think an email that says on

october 31st to quote falsely declare victory on election night and call for the voting to stop would be difficult to wiggle and dance around but i take your point. thank you for starting us off on all of,this. harry and donna stick around. when we come back, the very first public hearing of the new oversight committee will be all about hunter biden. the president's son has been largely silent though as the right has railed against him for years now, and up to today, but a new story, a new body of news reporting and some new moves from his lawyer suggest a dramatic shift in strategy. we'll tell you ball it. plus, it's not hunter biden they are targeting. they have got other people they are seeking payback from. house republicans today threw out democratic congresswoman ilhan omar from one of her high-profile committee posts. up of her colleagues will be our guest on that, and later in the program in the wake of democrats losing their bid to ban firearms

on the hill, new concerns about security ahead of next week's state of the union address. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. hi, i'm tony hawk, and like many of you, i take a statin to reduce cholesterol, but statins can also deplete coq10 levels. that's why my doctor recommended qunol coq10. qunol has the number one cardiologist recommended form of coq10. qunol. the brand i trust. a must in your medicine cabinet! less sick days!

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for years now hunter biden, the sole surviving son of president joe biden's has been the right's favorite poogy man and now it appears he's fighting back with a dramatic shift in strategy driven by a new lawyer on his team named abby lowell. both nbc news and "the washington post" have opinion reporting on this development for the last 24 hours reporting that hunter biden's lawyers sent

a series of blistering letters wednesday to state and federal prosecutors urging criminal investigation into those who accessed and disseminated his personal data and sent a separate letter threatening fox news host tucker carlson with a defamation lawsuit. those letters target a whole ecosystem of conservative activists, media personalities and attorneys all allies of the disgraced ex-president. from nbc's reporting on this, quote, among letters was the national security division being asked for an investigation into, quote, individuals for whom there's considerable reason to believe violated various law in access, copying, manipulating and/or disseminating mr. biden's personal commuter data including rudy giuliani. giuliani, of course, was trump's lawyer at the time. also singled out in the letter is former trump adviser steve bannon who claimed in september 2020 that he, quote, possessed a copy plaintiff biden's computer

data. nbc news has reached out to those individuals mentioned in the letters from hunter biden's attorney. fox news did not respond. giuliani and bannon vindicate the claims that the laptop was his. hunter biden's team insists no such thing is true. they note the letters aren't to be read as confirming any alleged versions of biden's laptop. his attorney says the letter is to address the conduct of seeking, manipulating and disseminating what they allege to be mr. biden's personal data. hunter pushing back comes just as house republicans are set to focus their attention on president joe biden's son. the subject of the first public hearing by the gop-controlled house oversight is on, wait for it, hunter biden's laptop. biden has largely kept a low profile during the years of stories. trum asked where's hunter during campaign rallies in the 2020

election but a person familiar with the first son's strategy says he's now had enough. joining us "washington post" white house reporter and his by-line is on one of the pieces of reporting we just read, from harry lipman and donna everett are still with us. take me through what you're hearing in this new strategy. >> yeah, nicole, there's been a simmering debate among him and his allies of hi approach to take, and for a long time that approach has been to keep your head down. sort of hope that the news blows over, don't push your own story. there's been another camp to be more proactive and be aggressive and go after your opponents and tell your own story and that's the approach he's now transitioning to in part because he has abby lowell retained about a month ago on his team. he's known for hard-nosed legal tactics and they are beingmore

aggressive now sending off those four letters and illustrating that he's prepared to take a more aggressive public relations strategy as well as legal strategy just at the moment that house republicans are turning towards him. he's going to be much more aggressive, i think, and try to put some of his opponents on their heels. >> matt, you've got some great reporting about just how they have done sort of the legal research and some of the oppo, if you will, of this ecosystem of activists. brian sullivan, another lawyer now representing hunter biden in a letter to the irs challenge being the nonprofit stat just of marco polo, a group run by conservative activist garrett ziegler. lowell provided 36 pages as evidence that the group is engaging in political activity in violation of its nonprofit status. if you want to be political, there's a way to organize yourself as a group, but it's not as a nonprofit. that violates all of the rules of your incorporationed and

fund-raising and what not, and it sounds like they may believe they have evidence that that's the case here. >> and it's an illustration of how much work has gone into some of this. none of these letters that were sent yesterday were short. they had lots of footnotes. with the garrett ziegler example they had 36 pages of different attachments to sort of make their case to the irs and letters to the delaware attorney general and to the department of justice. they had footnotes and they have gone through everything that john paul mcasoak, the mac store has said and rudy giuliani has said and steve bannon has said. they dissect a lot of those things in these criminal referral letters and illustrate why they believe that they are in the wrong and there deserves to be an investigation into them, and they also went after fox news, and that letter also quite lengthy detailing the things tucker carson has said on

air that they believe piece of the way for a potential defamation suit so out of the gate they are sort of illustrating the preparation for this moment, and the willingness to pull the trigger though as i was alluding to earlier has been the subject of a lot of internal debate. there's some in the white house that don't necessarily welcome hunter biden as a prominent story. his allies believe he has every right and the need really to be more aggressive at this moment. >> so, matt, i could fill up the next hour and a half of our program with sound from tox news attacking hunter biden and we should say hunter biden has been under investigation by two administrations led by two presidents and two attorneys general in the same i believe prosecutor in delaware has been running what is believed to be a criminal investigation into hunter biden so the legal -- the legal vulnerabilities that hunter biden may or may not have are very much under federal

investigation. the political thing is more opaque to me, and hunter biden is of singular obsessive -- i mean, other than the big lie about losing in 2020, i don't know that there's anything more obsessive for trump. help me understand. i mean, i think that if people are being honest, not many people aren't touched by or not people don't have some window into the disease of addiction which has afflicted hunter biden at various points in his life. most people understand a president's kids are not -- they are not a president. they haven't stepped into the arena and and as i said there's a massive, years long federal investigation into whether any crimes have been committed by hunter biden. what is the political magic key in the rights view to hunter biden? >> this is such an interesting moment for hunter i think and those around him where, you know, it's -- it's not without risk, right they are drawing attention in a way to the laptop and to a very dark chapter of

hunter's life, to a lot of data that ended up in other hands and has kind of, you know, been embarrassing quite frankly, but they have kind of been tired of keeping their head down which is what they have often been told. let this blow over. so, i mean, i think that this is a moment they want to begin to -- to kind of have had a little bit of retribution to those who they believe have wrongly accused him and wrongly disseminated some of his personal data, so, you know, it -- it isn't without ring. as you mentioned, hunter has his own legal challenges right now that he's still facing with the tax investigation, you know, so -- but he's making. choice at this point to xhind of go after the opponents. the people who he believes have wronged him so it's unclear how will the politics will play out.

it does give republicans ammunition, a reason or more motivation, face they needed more, to sort of target hunter, you know. he's being much more proactive now. >> i mean, donna, i said it before. if a republican in the house's lips are moving they are saying the name hunter biden and, again, it isn't legal, it isn't investigative because there's a criminal investigation into hunter biden that has gone on under two presidents of two different parties, and their attorneys general so the republican effort is purely political. it was started by donald trump and president slengdsy when he withheld approved military aid. what do you make the team around hunter biden saying maybe the only thing less bad than this is to get ourselves on offense or do you think it's too risky? >> no, no, no. i think it's really smart they are in an environment where the

house overor oversight committee st. going to put hunter in the spotlight as well. >> and they still are l. >> and it's important for him to push back and not just have them allow -- you a lou them free reign. i think it's a smart political strategy and political strategy, and i think republicans can go to have to respond to this as well. some of us on the outside who have heard the sort of silence have been frustrated with not being able to put forward his side so this is a good move for us. >> harry lipman, abby lowell is a polarizing figure in official washington, but he's not without a lot of people who admire his legal tool kit and track record. what do you make of his really i

think biggest public move on the political front in service of hunter biden? >> yeah. i know, everything you say is right, but he also has real legal chops, but i think it clearly signifies just what fred says that they are now -- you know, everyone else does it. why not them? they are going on the offensive, and i just want to point out, you know, once you go to the vinegar route, go going back to the honey so this is the way they are going to play it, but it's an extraordinarily complicated mix of legal and political. just give you one example. the laptop itself. these letters were purposefully cryptic about whether that laptop is his at all. the reason is when it comes to the legal issue they are going to have and prosecution would have a very hard time doing all the legal niceties to actually show a line from hunter biden himself to the actual e-mails

they would want to introduce, things about authenticity, et cetera, so they want to accuse, understandably, all of these people violating computers laws but they want to be cryptic and silent whether hunter biden had a hospital it was the middle of a drug period. they are trying to eat their cake and have it too teally and politically, a hard task. >> matt, let me ask you a dumb question. let's like dip our head into earth two where jim jordan reins all powerful and knowing. say that they bat a 000 on their hunter biden hearings. what is the -- i mean, there's nothing that i've seen in any of the stories about any of this that suggest anything of it had nothing do with his father? what's the end game other than humiliating the president's son? >> i mean, that may be the -- the end game. you know, because we've spent a lot of time with the laptop and

we've looked a lot at it and there isn't much that ties the president to any wrongdoing which i think has got to be the focus for it to be relevant for it to be of a congressional committee is to look at joe biden and the presidency and there's nothing at least on the laptop that illustrates that. for there to be something they would need to bring this out and introduce some new sort of evidence that hasn't opinion wicked over and i think that's the space that they are sort of looking at. your point is taken. i think a lot of this is to embarrass hunter biden and to use him as a foil to drive political donations and to animate the republican base as hunter biden does so i think that that's going to be a lot of it more than trying to find an actual end to an investigation. >> a deeply cynical move. it treats voters like they are too stupid to know what the disease of addiction can be

like, how it can tear apart a family and actual investigators who have looked at this have found nothing. as i've said before, jim jordan's inspector clueso committee thinks they are going to find something. matt, a really interesting piece of reporting. harry, thanks for helping us understand the significance. donna sticks around a little longer. the entire democratic caucus stood behind their colleague congresswoman omar who went to the floor in a tearful defense before losing her spot on the top committee. the democratic leader calling this nothing short of political revenge. so much for turning down the temperature on capitol hill. we'll bring you the story next. . we'll bring you the story next why give your family just any eggs when they can enjoy the best? eggland's best. the only eggs with more fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. which is now more important than ever. only eggland's best. hi, i'm tony hawk, and like many of you, which is now more important than ever. i take a statin to reduce cholesterol, but statins can also deplete coq10 levels.

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whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪ is anyone surprised that i am being targeted? is anyone surprised that i am somehow deemed unworthy to speak about american foreign policy? or that they see me as a powerful voice that needs to be silenced? >> frankly it is expected. my leadership and voice will not be diminished. if i am not on this committee for one term. my voice will get louder and stronger and my leadership will be celebrated around the world as it has been! >> democratic congresswoman ilhan omar moments before her

republican colleagues voted to kick her off from her seat on the house foreign affairs committee. it is as promise made and a promise kept by speaker kevin mccarthy, one that democratic leader hakeem jeffries says it's not about her fierce criticism of israel and controversial comments but instead is about politics and political payback after democrats booted republicans from committees for promoting violence towards their colleagues across the aisle. here was leader jeffries earlier. >> now representative omar certainly has made mistakes. what's going to take place on the floor today is not a public policy debate. it's not about accountability. it's about political revenge. >> turning our coverage, democratic congresswoman many

congresswoman crockett, part of the oversight committee. congresswoman, let me start with you. tell me your reaction to seeing a single member targeted for what leader jeffries describes as political revenge. >> so, unfortunately, this was the first time that i've cried on the floor, and i said unfortunately because i should not be moved to tears, but it was just a blatant reminder of the hypocrisy that comes with this republican party about the fact that they don't want to talk about real things, real issues that i was sent to d.c. to deal with but instead they want to continue to promote a white supremacy agenda as far as i'm concerned. this was cloaked in that idea that they were taking a moral high ground and they were looking out for those who have obviously suffered great harm in this country, but this is the same party that doesn't want people to understand the real truth about our history so the idea that they are the

protectors and that they are the ones that can take the moral high ground is just more games and more of them giving red meat to a lot of the racist folk that love the republicans right now. >> donna, what do you think when you see these first moves from mccarthy which includes this one today? >> well, i mean, mccarthy is proving that he's not a leader. he's keeping a promise that was made so that he could become speaker and very sadly, i mean, when i, you know, watch congresswoman owe marks i think about the type of voice that she is, a refugee, a new immigrant, somebody whose voice is frankly missing from the foreign affairs committee. that's exactly the voice that needs to be there, and so this is not a demonstration of leadership by kevin mccarthy. in fact, it's a demonstration of weakness because he fell prey to if to the lowest common denominator of his conference.

>> representative crockett, i want to ask you to put your oversight committee hat on for a second. we were just talking about the president's son hunter biden's new lawyer introducing in the last 24 hours a new legal strategy designed to perhaps get his client on some political offense, if you will, against the people on the right that have targeted him. what is your sense of how committed speaker mccarthy is to making hunter biden the noun and verb of every sen that's comes out of republicans' mouths? >> oh, i mean, they are absolutely committed, but what they don't understand is when we tied the republican party to trump and h they know that it was something that made them lose a lot of seats, made them lose power, allowed us to take the white house and so they believe that by going after the president's son, number one they can avoid

the fact that they are about to fail the country, that they are failing the country, and so this party is constantly looking for distractions, and that's exactly what they are trying do with hunter biden to try to make it seem as if whatever they believe hunter had going on, which i don't know that they really even believe that he had anything going on, but if they can tie him to the president and hopefully keep the message around that instead of keeping the message around the fact that we are looking at this debt ceiling fight and the fact that our rating in the world may struggle, the fact that we may suffer more economic harm, one of the things that they campaigned on was that they were going to be the saviors of this economy, yet they are going in and they are basically saying we don't care. we will shut it down. we are going to shut it down, and they don't want to talk about those issues, the issues that are really hurting americans every day. i can promise you when i'm on the campaign trail, if i ask

somebody do you care about hunter biden or do you care about gas prices, they will tell me gas prices 100% of the time so the republicans need to stop playing games and get to the business of doing the work of the people. >> so donna, 73% of all americans already believe that the house republican priorities are not theirs. they have already cemented an image in the mind of 73% of vote that they are out of step with the super majority of the american people. >> well, i mean, voters are smart. they concluded that because they look at way that this new congress started. they look at the priorities that have been set, that have nothing to do with people getting up every day, going a job, putting food on the table, driving their kids to soccer practice, and so -- and i think voters are -- voters are like incredibly intuitive and smart about what's in their interest, and they can see a frontal view of the republican party and particularly in the house that

isn't interested in them. >> or even talking about it. i want to ask you both to stick around. i want to ask you about something we've spent a lot of time on the last couple of weeks, whether there's any new life in conversations around police reform. don't go anywhere. fe in conversd police reform. don't go anywhere. chevy silverado factory-lifted trucks. where will they take you? ♪ ♪ (dog barks) ♪

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support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means

all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. right now, members of the congressional black caucus are meeting at the white house. it comes a day after tyre nichols' funeral. he was beaten to death by police

officers in memphis. lawmakers plan to urge president biden to make another push for police reform after the george floyd justice and policing act passed by the house nearly two years ago. it stalled out in the u.s. senate. we're back with congresswoman jasmine and donna edwards. you know how to put legislative magic and political muscle into things that matter to you. how do you make this something that can happen that people talk about not as something that will em nntly fall apart in the senate or not pass this house. >> you know my thoughts about the senate. we have had our fair share of conversations about the senate, but one of things that reverend al said at the funeral yesterday was the civil rights movement, it's a movement. it is something where you have to continue to move. meaning that we've got to

continue pushing. we can't sit down and sit on our hands because to be perfectly honest, this act was named after george floyd. guess what? tyre nichols was alive when we were pushing for this legislation. tyre nichols didn't have to die, except that there seemingly is a lack of courage around this conversation on policing. just this week, margery taylor and i had an interesting interaction. i filed an amendment specifically to bring back the civil rights and civil liberties subcommittee so we could have a real conversation around policing. as far as i'm concerned, we need a very basic policing bottom line standard in this country, because it's not limited to one city or one state. this is something that we see as an epidemic that's been spreading across the country for years. yet we have never taken the time to actually address it. so i do applaud the president for deciding that, yes, he's

still going to stand with us and recognize that this is a real problem in america. it's a problem that we need to actually start working on instead of playing games like talking about hunter biden's laptop. >> i think it's amazing. this affects everybody. this affects everybody that lives in a community with police, which is everybody. this affects everybody. everyone needs a strong and healthy police tors. everybody with a kid worries about their kid, but nobody can understand the terror of a black mom and dad when their black son is pulled over by the cops. i have heard it on and off television that it is a singular nightmare that you have the talk. and i think that is a universal concern. i think this should be a number one issue for every american, regardless of your political party. how do you break it out of this entractable sense we won't do anything? >> really, sadly, you're right. i have had this conversation with my son since he was in middle school. now he's in his 30s.

and i think that for so mf of us in communities, we wonder why it is so entrenched. i do think we have seen some little bit of progress. the president did put this place a lot of the elements of the george floyd policing act in executive order. i think that's good. but it has to be legislation and the lesson that we took from reverend sharpton was a repiepder that we have to keep at it. that this isn't a one-time thing and the more we keep at it, we're going to get to where we need to be. it's frustrating. and out in communities, it doesn't ease the concern of every mom out there about what's going to happen with her son or her daughter. and so i think that if this is going to be revived, maybe it

gets revived, frankly, in the senate and we may have to take pieces of it and not all of it, but we're not going to stop until it's done. >> taking pieces of this and trying to pass it one chunk at a time. >> i think there maybe buckets of things that we can get over the hurdle. because otherwise we'll remain entrenched. >> it takes a group of women to figure out how to get past the entractable feeling. thank you both for being with us. when we come back, we'll look at security in jasmine's place of work, washington, d.c., the u.s. capitol. the threat of violence remains a very real thing. another big hour of news is ahead. don't go anywhere. ahead. don't go anywhere. severe asthm. triggers can pop up out of nowhere, causing inflammation that can lead to asthma attacks.

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the second amendment is absolute and it's here to stay. a recent report states that americans own 46% of the world's guns. i think we need to get our numbers up, boys and girls. >> some suck you know what. hi, it's 5:00 in new york. we show you that sick statement because that, ladies and gentlemen, is today's republican party in these united states. that specifically is who has been elevated between kevin mccarthy's gop. who holds the majority in the house of representatives. that was congresswoman lauren boebert, who made those appalling comments on the house floor hours after a heated debate took place among members of the house natural resources committee. the committee's first meeting of the year, democrat of california ro posed an amendment that would prohibit lawmakers from carrying guns in its hearing room. he noted that the

republican-controlled rules committee removed the provision democrats have put in place for the previous two years that banned firearms in hearing rooms and committees. lauren boebert called the amendment a political stunt while reiterating her desire to have a loaded gun on her in the capitol. congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez said, it's all extremely concerning. i sit on that committee with a man who threatened to kill me, referring to a video posted by representative paul gosar, who denied it was meant as a threat. there are reassurances they don't want to hurt members, frankly, are quite empty. they have stoked an environment that's unsafe, she said. the amendment failed in a party line vote. meanwhile, the state of the union is less than one week away, and congresswoman huffman and 13 other democrats sent a letter to house and senate leaders expressing urgent concern about the safety and security of those in attendance. the gop house majority's new

rules have made the safety and security of the house chamber, the very seat of american democracy, at risk to infiltration and violence with reckless changes to necessary preventive measures. the letter cites many incidents reasons for concern. quote, in the wake of the violent insurrection of january 6th, ab awe tempt by a member of congress to bring a concealed weapon on the house floor, other members vowing to do so in contra vengs of house rules, and most recently a colleague distributing what appeared to be legitimate and later revealed to be hand grenades on the house floor, we though from experience that the house is vulnerable to multiple fronts of attacks both from inside and outside congress. considering the ability of members of congress to carry firearms in the capitol complex outside the house floor, removal of the mags from the entrances to the house floor, and with record threats against the lives of members of congress, the security of the house complex is today recarehouse.

safety concerns about the u.s. capitol with republicans in control is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" luke is here. also joining us is former cia director to president obama and an msnbc national security analyst john brennan is here. and with us at the table is former official and msnbc contributor rick steng the is back. luke, take me inside. it's amazing that it didn't take this long. it took a minute for a debate about having loaded firearms inside the hearing rooms to break out. take me inside this. >> sure. while d.c. has a law banning any regular person from carrying a gun on to the capitol grounds, there's an exception under capitol police regulations for members of congress. members of congress are allowed to take firearms to their offices and keep them there.

they are banned from taking them on the house floor. but after that, the regulations get america i can. so last congress, democrats grow concerned once lauren boebert joined her committee because she boasted about carrying a loaded gun with her. they passed a regulation that said that you cannot bring guns to the committee room. and this congress, the republicans have repealed that. yesterday they fought back a measure that would reinstate it. so essentially, they are saying you are allowed to bring a gun to the committee room. they have taken a number of other steps. they removed the metal detectors from the house floor, which caught some people with guns, or at least one person trying to take a gun into the house chamber. and then they also fired the sergeant at arms, who had attempted to create a gun-free zone at the capitol. he wanted all guns off capitol

grounds. so you see right away metal detectors are gone, regulations about bringing guns in the committee are gone, and also a change in personnel for the security at the capitol. and next week is the state of the union, where they could be in that chamber. so democrats are raising concerns about the security status on capitol hill right now. >> luke, i heard evidence that people are on the spectrum between unnerved and scared. what is the clay climate like? >> congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez said we have members in this body who essentially threatened to kill me. put up a video of me being attacked and killed, and to one has ever apologized to me. now we have them wanting to bring guns to the capitol or at

least take away the regulations to prevent them from carrying them. and republicans have fought back against these changes saying they need the guns on them when they walk to and from the capitol citing fears of crime this d.c. but given the toxic nature on capitol hill, you do hear concern from democrats. people can get angry during some of these debates. tempers flair and there's a concern if the other person is armed what could possibly happen. republicans have taken offense to some of these statements saying you're basically accusing us of being homicidal maniacs. given the toxic environment, the amount of threats that come in, the violence we have seen on political leaders is and especially after january 6th there is a heightened state of fear. >> which party supporters stormed the capitol on january 6th, 2021? >> that's donald trump

supporters. >> here's tim gosar's brother describing, doesn't use the word homicidal maniac, but he does use the words dangerous, unhinged and reckless to describe paul gosar who threatened alexandria ocasio-cortez. >> i don't try to choose mutt words loosely. i believe he's dangerous, unhinged and is reckless and is somebody that, as i have said before, needs to not only be censored, but he needs to be expelted. if at the end of that process if he gets expelled, criminal charges are warranted, then criminal charges should be brought as well. >> so drrkt brennan, that was paul gosar's brother. i have no idea what political party he associates with, but after paul gosar sent out a video with an animated cartoon of him killing congresswoman

alexandria ocasio-cortez, it was paul gosar's own family members who tried to warn the country about their brother. again, he said he didn't choose his words loosely. quote, i believe he is dangerous, unhinged and reckless. these are the people that want to have guns in the hearing rooms. what as a security expert is wrong with that? >> just about everything. i find it surreal that we're having this conversation. i feel since republicans took over the house, we're being brought down the rabbit hole and we have arrived at the bar and everybody is armed now. this is just absurd on its face. but it's clear that the republicans are trying to appeal to the maga crowd. it's not just an embrace of the second amendment. i think what they are trying to do is to show their embrace of a gun culture in this country. which representative boebert in terms of trying to increase the

number of individuals who own guns here. but it's sending a signal domestically and internationally that we're a society that is out of control. that members of congress need to be bringing these firearms into the committee hearing rooms, which is unnecessary. if there needs to be additional security, you should have law enforcement officers and security details increased and ebb hansed, but to allow these individuals to be able to bear arms in those committee rooms, some others who have spoken, i'm concerned that if another crisis like january 6th were to develop, i wonder which sides some of these individuals would be on. as more ask more people are carrying weapons, they shouldn't have individual members of congress bringing those weapons, loaded weapons into committee rooms. absolutely unnecessary and absurd. >> director brennan nap, the last person who theed to take

the mags down, because he knew who armed protesters would or wouldn't target was donald trump. he said according to sworn testimony by cassidy hutchen sob, take the mags down. they are not here to hurt me. a person who wore kef letter was one of his republican al lice. republicans seem very much on the same wifi frequency is as armed republican voters. what is that about? what is it about wanting to be one with your armed supporters that should make all of us nervous? >> i think politically, they are trying to continue to bully people and try to intimidate others. i thus they are trying to send a signal we are going to arm ourselves and we're going to defend our interests as well as our agendas. and if we have to resort to the use of violence and guns, we'll do that.

so again, i just think that donald trump really tried to tough into the pulse of these individuals in that maga world, who really do embrace a gun culture like the wild west days of war. we are in the 21st century. we shouldn't have in the halls of congress and committee rooms individual who is are armed. what they are concerned about, a lot of the republicans are pushing this those are the ones, as you pointed out, would incite some of the activities of january 6th. >> so just to bring this into the real threat environment, as we all have this conversation today, this is from two weeks ago. police investigated 7,500 threats against members of congress last year. last year's numbers marked the first decline in five years, but remained historically high, nearly double the 3rkz 900 from

2017. in 2021 when the january 6th riot took place, threat cases were 9,625. so even with this dip to 7,500 threats against members of congress, that's still twice what the numbers were in 2017. it is unprecedented threat landscape. and luke has reported on the fact that they don't have security. their offices and their own staffs and interns are the ones that aren opt the front lines when people call and make death threats. it's their justice that determines whether one of those gets kicked to law enforcement and investigated and need protective measures put this place. >> we saw on january 6th that capitol police are woefully understaffed. nothing has been done about it. in fact, they made it worse by taking out the mags. . they need to have more staff investigating these threats. there's some real threats there.

but it sends such a terrible message to the nation that this is the place for debate for people arguing from coming together to form legislation, and these republican congress people uncyst on having loaded weapons. you don't need a loaded weapon when you're having a debate. congresswoman's boebert description of the second amendment is so distorted. to say it's absolute, the idea, and i hate to mention the framers all the time, but the idea that the framers thought -- >> get it. it's like they are here with us. >> talking to james madison right now. the idea that james madison would have put the second amendment so people could bring loaded weapons to the place of debate of harmony, where democracy comes together, they would be apalled by it. it's a complete and utter distortion of the second amendment, which was just for a

well-regulated militia. part of the symbol that they are sending is that we are a gun culture that gun culture values trump the values of debate and peaceful coming together to create legislation. that's a scary idea. >> the other thing that's scary is it's not as though political volence, which was also a high level ands historically high threat, and only the republican party, not the democratic party upward of 70% of republican voters respond that political violence could be acceptable in some situations. but you have people who have been victims of political violence in that chamber. the husband of the speaker, member of leadership, congressman scalise, you have this case in new mexico that a grand jury has indicted the master mind of four political targetings and shootings. you have the trial that will

proceed. why isn't that enough to break the fever of political violence has touched both parties? >> right. thes last election cycle opened with january 6 with all the assaults on police that have ended with the assault of paul pelosi, breaking into the speaker's house. political violence was a through line through all of it through the past two years. i don't know how seriously some of the folks on capitol hill take it. i understand some of them were wearing pins of ar-15 the other day on their a lapels. i think one of the guests mentioned it earlier. to some of the republicans this is about firing up the base and showing that they are really as pro second amendment as possible. those type of things, saying i'm going to carry a gun with me everywhere, is what a lots of base voters want to hear. i'm the person who will take a

loaded firearm everywhere. some of the republicans in response to some of the criticism from the democrats are saying things like, well, if i have my loaded gun with me, i wouldn't be shooting you. i'll be shooting the attackers that will come at us on capitol hill. so this is a matter of hot debate. i don't think it's going away. we have seen a distinction change in how congress is approaching guns on the hill ushd the new republican leadership. >> this is the current sort of guiding threat assessment from dhs. this is from the end of november. the united states remains in a heightened threat environment. loan offenders and small grouped motivated by a range of believes and/or personal grievances continue to pose a persistent threat to the homeland. in the coming months, threat actors could exploit events to commit acts of violence including certifications relating to the mud term elections, the holiday season

and associated large gatherings. the markings of two years since the breach on january 6th and potential soes yo political developments connected to believes or personal hostility. i remember when a state of the union in the years after 9/11 was considered one such potential targeted event. security was extreme and stripped down groups of aids could travel with president bush to the u.s. capitol because of those measures. should we even be having this conversation about weapons in the capitol? >> thus it's important to make sure that there's going to be appropriate attention paid to all the security measures that are necessary for a state of the union. when you have this gathering of hundreds upon hundreds of individuals, who are responsible for carrying out governance in this country, it's critically important. i think this recent conversation and effort to try to have

members of congress on the committees really does distort the discussion about the appropriate security measures that are necessary to ensure that our public officials are going to be protected. unfortunately, a lot of political ideoloies are fueling these fires in terms of the awe setsment. but also it's the rampant and wide availability and accessibility of weapons in this country that i think has caused the homeland security officials, law enforcement officials to really worry about the potential for violence when you have that many arms in this country among so many people of very strong views and those who are willing to take matters into their own hands. >> it's ab unbelievable sort of powder keg environment. luke, i said this many times, but for being our eyes and ears on the center of the political universe, thank you very much. when we come back, house

democrats are now calling for an investigation into the investigation into the investigation after bomb shell "new york times" reporting blew the roof off of the durham probe exposing, among other things, that the disgraced ex-president was criminally investigated. that's after a quick break. later in the hour, a powerful rebuke of tucker karlson, republicans intimidated by him. it's a takedown you won't want to miss. it comes from a very unlikely place. "deadline white house" continues after a quick praek. don't go anywhere. quick praek. don't go anywhere. not flossing well? then add the whoa! of listerine to your routine. new science shows it gets in between teeth to destroy 5x more plaque above the gumline than floss. for a cleaner, healthier mouth. listerine. feel the whoa! ♪ ♪ this... is a glimpse into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪

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house democrats this week are calling on the u.s. justice department's inspector general to investigate the review of the origins of the russia investigation being conducted by special counsel john durham. durham's investigation of the investigatorers was the subject of what those democrats call alarming new bomb shell reporting in "the new york times." we told you about the reporting last week when the story broke. how durham's investigation as "the times" report was royaled by unreported ethical failures and internal chaos and resignations. shocking revelations congressman dan goldman point to, possibly misconduct, abuse of power, ethical transgressions as well as a potential coverup. at one point it turned into an international unrelated secret criminal investigation of

potential crimes committed by donald trump himself. from their letter to the justice department's inspector general, rather than vindicate former president trump, the durham investigation instead resulted in two failed political prosecutions. two career prosecutors resigning in protest and abuse of the grand jury process, an attempt to suppress a part of your lengthy and detailed report, and a misleading narrative presented to the american people that hid an allegation of a financial crime committed by the former president. joint joining us is charlie savage, msnbc contributor. one of the reporters whose byline is on that extraordinary piece of journalism in "the new york times" about the durham investigation. john and rick are still here. charlie, i know that the journal u. stands on its own. it is its own point. but when the investigative

journalism leads to an effort by congress to investigate something like this, it's clear that there are very real ethical and policy questions that have been raised. i wonder your reaction to the reaction to your story. >> i'm glad people are paying attention to it. we spent months working on that and i'm glad to see the reaction it's received. this letter is from two house democrats both former prosecutors thelss. they are asking the justice department's independent inspector general to open an investigation into various matters about how bill barr and john durham conducted this investigation. also, on the senate side where democrats still control the gavel, senator durbin, who is the chairman of the judiciary committee, has indicated that he wants to look into this as part

of his oversight activities in the next congress. it does look like people who have subpoena power and more authority than mere reporters are interested in scrutinizing this further. on the house side, democrats are no longer in the majority so they can't do their own investigation. i don't know whether the inspector general, if he does decide to investigate this, would do so right away or whether he would wait until after durham turns in his final report. if so, everything is said and done before he would take a look. we'll see. >> so whether it's inspector general horowitz, who was never afraid to investigate things that became political hot potatoes, it would be interest figure he had some parameters around this one. you have given him a road map. a couple people might have more access to would be the two very senior prosecutors who quit.

they talked about one who quits at the end. you report one who was his prosecutorial partner, who quits earlier on. talk about what a more sort of in-depth debrief by both of them would answer, what sort of questions. >> ul say two things. i think any further investigation of this would want to see the draft interim report by the election in 2020 that was never issued, that was apparently the precipitating straw that broke the camel's back. quitting is durham's number two in this investigation. they would want the to know more about how durham used a grand jury authority to obtain access to the e-mails of george so roes aid after a federal judge twice ruled his evidentiary basis for trying to get after that information about those e-mails and intrude on that person's

privacy was inaud adequate. that would be two big avenues of discussion. as well as what was this criminal investigation involving some sort of financial crime linked to trump. how did they pursue it, what happened to that. charges were never brought. the other thing, though, there's a complication here. those people who quit, at least one of them no longer works for the justice department. and the in thor general may not have authority to force people to cooperate with an investigation, who are no longer employees of the justice department. and the other complication is that it's not clear that there's two different ways the justice department investigates itself. there's the inspector general and the office of professional responsibility. and ethical problems, misconduct that falls short of law breaking, generally is more in the opr than the inspector general there could be two

different potential bureaucratic entities here. >> director brennan, i think i asked this question every day for four years. why do they do it? and i have that question about john durham, who before taking on donald trump's pet investigation, the investigators had a decent reputation. one of the it was attorneys quoted in the story says everything about that reputation rang hollow when he was face to face with mr. durham in the conduct of his work on the probe. the other thing that i remember is horowitz looked at some of this and durham allowed for a statement to go out for this investigation contradicting the doj. i wonder if you think there's a higher place at which to examine the conduct of this four-yearlong investigation into the investigators.

>> well, clearly, this whole investigation was politically motivated. i think it was quite clear that engaged in a fair amount of unethical and professional inappropriate activities throughout as bulls barr was kowtowing to donald trump. therefore, bill barr put the pressure on durham as well. john durham did have a strong reputation. it's unfortunate it's gone down this road. and charlie's reporting raises some serious questions about whether or not new of this misconduct might have risen to the level of criminal activity or needs to be investigated by doj. it's very unfortunate it's taken up so much time and money when it's clear that this was a witch hunt trying to disprove the assessment that was done by the community that russia was interfering in the 2016 presidential election on behalf

of donald trump. so it's very unfortunate. his deputy, a strong individual with great integrity, i do think there's some serious questions that feed to be asked. about why she left. i do think from my understanding that there really was some very great misgivings about some of the practices and pursuits that john durham was during the course of this investigation. >> i will never understand is how the people who say thaw care about the institution don't come out and police themselves. where are all of the conservative lifelong doj loyalists to the institution? to demand accountability, why does it fall to be the one to investigate something that looks like a very major central pillar of doj during the trump years has collapsed on itself in terms of ethics and morality and

professionalively. >> talk about questions that we have talked about over the last six years. the fact there are these norms that the attorney general didn't mess with the special koubl. that's why you appointed a special counsel. so that's this larger question. away are we going to do about it. the other thing is speaking of this story, this is exactly why the first a amendment protects the press. this story then holds powerful people accountable. it does it in a way that sets a road. for people to do something about it. i have to say, i tonight know if you have more time, i have a question for charlie. two things in your story. one, the russian hem moes that durham used. what are those? and then the second thing is do we know anything about the crime that trump may allegedly have committed in italy? >> i don't know whatever that

crime was committed in italy. officials passed on the allegation. we don't know more about that at this point than what we have reported. something financial linked to trump from the italian officials. durham looked at it and brought no charges. we don't know what he learned. we're not done. we'll kooep trying. the existence of this has been known since 2017. it had a neck us is and some reporting came out about that. these were russian intelligence analysts, memos describing purported conversations of american victims of russian hacking. not the raw e-mails themselves, but a memo saying we understand

so and so said this or that. it had been hacked out of the servers by the dutch. they had. copied all this stuff and handed it off to the united states in 2016. there was a the lot of hand ringing over them by the intelligence community. because there appeared tort misinformation in them. they were wrong and exaggerated things. some people thought it's possible that the russians knew that serve isser had been hacked and were deliberately putting disinformation into those memos in order to sew chaos. that's what that material was. >> charlie, there's enough in this story that we could sort of have you here for the whole hour and map it out. mary said she was a witness. i'm sure john has more insights as with presidential you can

come back for that. thank you for coming back. thank you. a quick reminder. be sure to check out our new deadline legal blog written by our colleague jordan rubin, former prosecutor for analysis on all of the top legal stories that we cover here on the show. you can find the blog by scanning the qr code on the screen. when we come back, former british prime minister boris johnson doesn't get everything right, but when he just said about how tucker carlson has infected america's republican party is a flashing red warning sign underscoring the dangers of spreading pro-rusia propaganda at a time of war. we'll play his comments, after a quick break. you don't want to miss this. quick break. you don't want to miss this.

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quote, as much as possible on their air waves due to the positions he takes on the war in ukraine and his pro-russian viewpoints. this weekend unlikely ally has come out against carlson saying he's infecting people's minds with bad ideas about russia. former uk prime minister boris johnson, who is currently on a speaking tour of the united states, had this to say yesterday during a discussion with the atlantic council. take a listen. >> i have been horrified by how many people are frightened of tucker carlson. has anybody heard of tucker carlson? all these republicans seem intimidated by his perspective. and i haven't watched anything of the news ta he's said, but i'm struck by how often this comes up. some bad ideas are getting into

starting to infect some of the thinking around the world about what putin stands for, what he believes in, it's a disaster. he stands for war, aggression, systemic murder, rape, and destruction. that's what he stands for. >> joining our coverage is msnbc contributor matt dowd. rick is back with us. let me show you what some of what boris johnson may have seen. this is some of tucker's greatest hits on russian propaganda. >> it might be worth asking yourself sense he's getting serious, what is this really about? why do i hate putin so much? has poout called me a racist? has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him? why does permanent washington haut him so much? instead the war in cain kraun is

designed to cause regime change. they want the to topple the russian government. that would be payback for the 2016 election. this is the logical end stage of russia gate. >> matt, boris johnson has taken note of our propaganda as entertaining, but there's a serious national security threat. a leader is aware of the damage tucker carlson is doing to the world's democracy by boosting vladimir putin. >> yeah, i was thinking as i was listening to boris johnson, who kind of was removed because of his outrageous behavior, it's akin to boris johnson accusing somebody else of having a bad hair day. if they have bad haur, then you know they are bad. if somebody is doing something outrageous, you know it's really bad. i was thinking -- you think about tucker carlson. it used to be a badge of honor in our country that you

advocated for the spread of democracy around the world. and now tucker carlson's position seems to be, it's very clear, the spread of autocracy around the world. he's a fan of vladimir putin. he's a fan of the leader of hungary. he's a fan of all of these autocrats. i guess tucker carlson, in his elite pampered place that he's existed in society where our democracy has delivered so much to him and the privilege he's had, he sees no desire for other people to experience that. >> that is interesting. if you diagram tucker karlson's position, he's anti-u.s. military, which endangers our national security. he's on a fabricated anti-wokism campaign that's meaningless out in the world. he's anti-democracy and pro the autocrats, vladimir putin. he has said defensive and

protective things around lula. why is he such a magnet for viewers? >> i think if you could say one thing about tucker carlson, if you watch the ark of his career, it has been a pursuit of popularity and some ratings. so i don't think -- maybe i'm assuming this, but having listened to him from years ago, i don't think he believes anything he says. think he says it because he thinks that is the way to have a committed, concentrated audience on cable news, which provides the millions of dollars a year of compensation that he gets. if he was to talk about democracy and he want theed to get the same audience, he would do that. so i think -- can't look into his soul and see what his real

moral clarity is, but i think he's reflective of the worst possible instincts of america, which is do anything for profit, if that means abandoning our democracy, if that means abandoning an ally, if that means watching the systemic killing of other people, so be it. i can live in my pampered lifestyle and that's all i care about. >> we'll get rick in on the other side of a quick break don't go anywhere. k in on the other side of a quick break don't go anywhere.

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we're back with matt dowd and rick stengle. this is what the kremlin writing in a memo, quote, it is essential to use as much as possible fragments of broadcast of the popular f news host tucker carlson, who sharply criticizes the actions of the u.s. and nato, their negative role in unleashing the conflict in ukraine, and their provocative behavior. russia is only protecting its interests and security. i understand why russia wants tucker. i don't understand why tucker wants mother russia. >> yes, i guess i don't get that either. the russians are always insecure about their point of view, going back to george kenin, russians are insecure, and have this

inferiority complex. i don't think the pro putin position is that popular in america. we can look at polls for that. i want to go back to what boris said. because boris is a bit of a buffoon and made a lot of mistakes, but he got one big thing right. he got ukraine right. he said once upon a time it was possible to justify some of putin's actions, to defend him, but now he's revealed himself as a mass murder, a person who has no reason, who is committing genocide against a whole country in the 21st century. there's no way to defend him at all. we talked about this before -- rachel maddow's podcast, a fascist fifth columnist in america going back 50, 75 years. that's essentially what tucker carlson is doing. >> so dark. thank you both for spending some time with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back.

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