countries around the world, china, north korea, russia, iraq -- excuse me, iran and other less friendly countries. so why are the chinese using a balloon makes absolutely no sense. but nonetheless they have. it's a crazy move and now they have to suffer the repercussions. >> thanks for being with us this afternoon. appreciate it. we're going to have a lot more coverage as we wait to see what secretary blinken says in response to the reporters in the room with him in the next couple of minutes. nicolle picks up our coverage with deadline right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, and it's friday. today we sit at the halfway point. two years have passed since the worst attack on the united states capitol in centuries, and two years remain before the next

presidential inauguration. at this crucial mile marker it's important to stare into the mirror of who we really are as a country. two years after lies and conspiracies about trump's big loss led to, quote, medieval combat on the steps of the u.s. capitol between law enforcement and trump supporters. those very same lies that inspired that attack two years ago are now deeply embedded in the politics of the gop. they are the single animating principle behind everything that happens in one of the country's two major political parties. it is in large part due to the fact that the man who, quote, summoned the mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame in the attack as january 6th select committee member liz cheney put it that would be twice impeached president trump himself as well as his top lieutenants remain the dominant force in the gop. and they insist on continuing to gaslight americans on what actually happened on january 6th to this day, to this hour on

this day. just yesterday a spat between the ex-president and kevin mccarthy over a claim that was too much for kevin mccarthy -- i know, right, of all people. from "the washington post" reporting former president donald trump said late thursday that he, quote, totally disagreewise the assessment of house speaker kevin mccarthy, that the capitol police officer who shot ashley babbitt did his job. mccarthy had weighed in on the issue thursday when asked by a reporter if he agreed with the characterization by marjorie taylor greene that babbitt was murdered by capitol police officers while she was trying to breach the doors on january 6th. but election denialism these days goes even farther than that or claiming january 6th was just a tourism visit or legitimate political discourse as the rnc officially declared it.

it also means believing that every election that doesn't go the gop way is therefore tainted with fraud. in today's republican party gone are the days when losing an election means you say we love to go on the field and right off into the sunset and try again next time. "the washington post" reports this about failed republican candidate carrie lake. lake's lost expressed fresh grievances about many candidates who refer to her as governor lake despite her loss to arizona governor katie haubts, the real governor in november. on sunday hundreds of supporters crowded onto a scottsdale, arizona, golf course where lake who's not a governor, headlined a state of arizona rally and reiterated her false claim that the election was intentionally marred by-election officials in the state's largest county. trump called into the rally declaring that lake would ultimately prove victorious in her attempts to overturn the election results.

as politico's reporting on the big lie in arizona, quote, denialism and its attendant conspiracies animate a large swath of the republican parties still. and if arizona is any example, it suggests that not an insignificant percentage of the national electorate is determined to run the same doomed experiment again in '24. this is all happening even as every day brings precevidence that those who spread the big lie knew full well that they were indeed lying at the time. the associated press has obtained recordings of trump campaign staffers on november 5, 2020, two day after election day that reveal a, quote, behind the scenes look at how former president trump's campaign team in a pivotal battleground state knew they'd been outflanked by democrats in the 2020 election. even as they acknowledged defeat they pivoted to allegations of widespread fraud that were ultimately debunked repeatedly by-elections officials in the courts.

here's andrew, ievson, the head of the trump campaign in wisconsin. >> here's the drill. comms is going to continue to fan the flame and get the word out about democrats trying to steal this election. we'll do whatever they need help with. just be on standby if there's any stunts we need to pull. >> as the a.p. reports iverson is now the midwest -- election denialism fueling and animating the gop with two years to go ahead of the next presidential inauguration is where we start today. former democratic congresswoman of virginia is here. she served on the january 6th select committee. also joining us "the washington post" national investigative reporter carroll lenning is here. congresswoman, i want to start with you.

the investigation is the best and the deepest look into how the lie led to violence, direct link, everyone eyes wide open. i wonder what your thoughts are as we see all these people who were instrumental in that coup plot now already on the field ahead of the next election in this country in 2024. >> look, i think it's very concerning. i where keep, you know, turning my focus is the fact in the people, the group of people that continue the most to perpetuate these lies are republicans in the house. you mention the comment by kevin mccarthy was actually a little -- moving the needle a bit that could be encouraging that at least in some aspect he's facing the truth. i think we remember that right after january 6th he showed up, said the right thing to condemn the violence but obviously he quickly took a turn on that. and the republican caucus in the house has just been the most amplifying voice in my mind for

these lies and perpetuating them. >> it is it's jarring and borders on surreal to watch the 19 members in the white house how they planned to overturn the election, and a lot of them were outed as having seeking pardons. it's amazing. and surreal is the word i keep coming to have them ascended to such power brokers in the house. i want to go back to your public statement from the public hearings about the chain of command for january 6th. >> donald trump summoned a violent mob and promised to lead that mob to the capitol to compel those he thought would cave to that kind of pressure. and when he was thwarted in his effort to lead the armed up rising, he insigated the attackers to target the vice president with violence. a man who just wanted to do his

constitutional duty. so in the end this is not as it may appear, a story of inaction in a time of crisis, but instead it was the final action of donald trump's own plan to assert the will of the american people and remain in power. not until it was clear that his effort to violently disrupt or delay the counting of the election results had failed did he send a message to his supporters in which he comenseerated with their pain and he told them affectionately to go home. that was not the message of condemnation and just punishment for those who broke the law that we expect from a president whose oath and duty is to ensure the laws are faithfully executed, but instead it was his newest version of stand back and standby. >> congresswoman, the newest

version of stand back and standby today includes donald trump fighting with kevin mccarthy when he sought to defend the capitol police officer who shot ashley babbitt. and the loss of any life is at least a tragedy. but kevin mccarthy has it right this time. but donald trump is still asking his supporters to stand back and standby. what are your concerns on the security front? >> i think it's very concerning. from the on set when the former president made those remarks at the debate, essentially making a wink and a nod to this group that, you know, intended to or at least in previous times have insinuated using violence. and the fact that he continues that lie with these claims of a stolen election, and if that is coming from a person who at this point is still the de facto of the republican party who has shown to have a lead against any

potential contenders it's very concerning how this could turn out for the future of elections in 2024. we see people in 2022 as has been noted kari lake, for example, hosting massive rallies talking about how it was stolen from her and we're going to see more of this. and it's undermining the trust of the american people, the trust in government and the trust in elections that the former president is at the center of this and has not yet been held accountable under the law. >> the piece that was so clear by the end of the public hearings was what the committee had evidence of was intent, intent to lie. there's a piece of general milly's transcript that came out where trump has said to him i think it's in the context of iran let the next guy deal with it, we lost, we're leaving. you've got cassidy hutchinson having that incredible call where he said i don't want

anyone to remember we lost. you've got these wisconsin guys saying when we come up short just run the play book, just say we actually won. the tragedy politically just happens on the right. the tragedy nationally and for securing our democracy happens to all of us, but they're really treating their voters like dukes and dopes. they knowingly lie to them when they know the election results are real. what is the importance of holding that fraudulent criminal behavior accountable on doj's part? >> i think it's essential, and i think one of the very important things in addition to the evidence, the intent displayed through our court is the fact that we made referrals to the department of justice. of course this came up frequently as people come up to me and say you're going to hold them accountable. as a congressional committee there's a limit to how we can do that. we can push the information out to the public. our role is legislative, it's oversight. but to hold them accountable under the law the department of

justice is going to have to take that role, and i feel like our referrals have passed that. we are seeing by the interviews before a grand jury and by many people who are close to the former president's inner circle that they are continuing that work. and i am watching as is everyone else for the results of that investigation and do hope for the future of our country that it will result in holding the former president and those people close to him who knowingly used false information to deceive people about the election, will hold them accountable for these actions. >> carol leonnig, because we have all covered trump for six years we have been around probably more legal scholars that any point in american news and journalism. and it seems that two things come through, right? the criminal justice system is there to punish criminal acts but also there to make sure they don't happen again, right? some of the judges have made those points in the sentencing

hearings of those violent extremists who have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy, some very pointed comments for some of the lesser charges as well. >> donald trump's crimes even the one that were referred by the committee are ongoing. this is what congressman jamie raskin said today in an interview with the legal blog. interference with a federal proceeding in this case the joint session of congress counting electoral college votes was not the only crime but the whole point of stop the steal. that was was trump's naked and illegal attempt to stop the vote, postpone it by any means necessary. that's one of the referrals. we think there'll be charges probably on some things we didn't have because we don't have all the prosecutorial resources the department of justice has. so we think they probably

collected a lot more evidence than we got. do you agree with that? do you think they have more evidence than the congresswoman's committee has? >> they were way ahead of the department of justice, nicolle, as you know. but raskin is absolutely right that the department of justice has entirely bigger guns so to speak when it comes to getting specific information that somebody may say claim privilege. you know, pat cipollone, former white house counsel, had a lot of front row seat time with donald trump as he planned and plotted how he would block the peaceful transfer of power, how he would hold on despite the will of the voters that he'd be ejected from the presidency. now the department of justice has this route to getting a fuller account from pat cipollone than the committee did, and that's true for many

other witness. i think it's possible for them to learn quite a bit more, however i'll just put a cautionary piece of tape around this conversation and say we don't know what they've obtained. they were far enough behind that we don't know how far they've gotten in terms of exceeding the information that the committee laid out to the public. those referrals for tv time were quite a while ago, but it's a very brief period of time for the department of justice. >> and i guess, carol, we look at this moment we were exactly two years from the last inauguration season. we're exactly two years from another inauguration of an american president. to your point very little work had gone into investigating the conduct of the president or his inner circle. and it's not just the ongoing nature of the specific crimes the committee refred. it's the remorselessness, saying

we're never going to get jobs, we now look like the domestic terrorists that we were. i mean the idea this is now -- there's no civil war, am i right? there's no soul-searching. there's no autopsy. there's no grappling with how it looked to have your supporters stabbing cops with flagpoles. they're all in. that's 2024 maga, baby. what is the absence of accountability in america's sort of judicial system? what impact do you think it's having in our politics? >> well, you know, i'm going to just use a slightly different example to get to your -- the answer to your question which is really about the consequences of accountability delayed, let's say. and by the way i'm not, luckily, in the position of having to make charging decisions which are still off in the future. if we don't know what those will

be, we can't prejudge evidence that's not before us. however, let's just put for a moment the drama that was january 6th. at that moment fbi agents and all senior just department officials including basically people who had been installed by donald trump and owed their jobs to donald trump were in a peripatetic frantic effort to make sure there was not a return repeat attack on the inauguration. they spent a painful frantic two weeks trying to make sure that nothing possibly could happen. any of the individuals who were rioters, people they were tied to, to come back and hurt the country in the same way that they had on january 6th. well, a lot of those people were arrested and got search warrants and subpoenas, and they were taken off the field of battle. to your question a lot of people who were engaged in attacking democracy in a soft, nonviolent

way -- soft is a poor adjective, i know, but pulling levers with donald trump's help or with his direction to try to block that transfer of power we have taken for granted in this country those people are still on the playing field. should they be charged again a decision in the department of justice, not for me. but they're still on the field and indeed they're running laps around it. so i think you kind of know the answer to your question. >> yeah, i mean tim this story is something we pulled out and brought into focus because the architect of a knowing fraud, someone who like donald trump knew he lost in november and just wanted those to be found has now been promoted. he has a bigger job. it's not just in charge of wisconsin. the rnc and that was a pretty

important job. kari lake instead of retiring and looking for a job at fox news like sarah palin did when she lost, is now holding -- i don't know what she's holding, fake governor rallies, wait for victory days? it is the last thing i would like to cover here, but until there is something that shows that we're not going to walk like zombies into another january 6th that maybe spreads to other state capitols based on the same script and the same grievances and the same conspiracies simply with more examples of more political violence under our belt as a country in new mexico and stran, i'm not sure there's a more ominous flashing yellow sign-in american politics. >> you're on fire today, just have to say. it's hard for me to compete with all this. yes, yes, yes to everything with one exception, one you said

earlier six years we've been dealing with this. actually we're a couple months away from the eight-year anniversary of the escalator. that's how long we've been dealing with this. >> oh, my god. >> i know, that's a triggering realization i had this morning. so, look, the kari lake thing i think is a prime example how deep the rot is and despite having an encouraging mid-term, we have to be eyes wide open and we're not out of the woods. that is insane, it's madness. hundreds of people showing up for a loser's rally, you know, across from the fc championship football game with other things going on with our lives -- the democrats are not a cult. it's insane to think this person that would have lost that throughout all our history we'd just be moving on maybe even aspirationally trying to help the incoming governor and see

ways they can work together. no, holding fake rallies with hundreds of people showing up, that's a bad sign. here's another bad sign. she went to december after that rally and held meetings at the national republican senatorial committee. they invited her in to the office to discuss her potential senate bid, you know, someone that is continuing to fan these anti-democratic flames, continuing to lead an assault against the democratic system. nobody at the rnc is like, hey, maybe we shouldn't invite this person in. if she wants to run, she can run but we don't need to have our stamp on it. no, this goes through the entire ecosystem. the regional political director of the rnc, you know, participating in this fraud. the tentacles go all the way to all these local campaigns. so when people say when are we going to get pack to normal, when are we going to get back to normal, well we can't until these people have repudiated

what happened. instead of repudiating it the people involved in these insurrections have gotten promotions. with the party itself there's been no repudiation, no accountability. people are getting rewarded for continuing to advance the lies that led to january 6th. >> and i think a delicious irony to that how about this -- we'll help you run for senate if you concede the governor's race. it's like laughable on its face. and i know the republican party has changed a whole lot since i was a part of it, but it has to be easier not harder to raise money if you don't have someone who still believes in her imagination she's governor on your slate of senatorial candidates. >> yeah. here's another thing this bench as we talked about with santos and how this guys get through, like masters just lost by 5 points, a handful of other insane insurrections, right?

you could zag and go back to a handful of local political officials and there are a few in arizona who pose what kari lake did and what trump did but you know they don't have a chance in a primary. so, yeah, we have to treat these people like children where the strategists who know better offer a cookie and carrots to get somebody to do the thing every politician in history has done which is concede and move on in order to try to get some kind of viable person that can run -- run next time. >> it's an amazing state of affairs. carol leonnig, tim miller, thank you for starting us off on a friday. >> when we come back an intelligence gathering balloon, this is a story everyone in our life is talking about. it's been detected over montana. it is moving over the united states. this is not a bad movie new on netflix. it is an international incident happening right now. the pentagon says the balloon is from china and has setoff a

diplomatic and military alarms. there are more questions than answers at this hour. we will ask them next. plus, the state of michigan is showing the country what it is like to have democrats in full control of state government. that power is being used around issues like expanding protections for lgbtq americans living in michigan and securing abortion rights there. michigan is in focus today, though, because it stands in stark contrast to what is happening in places like florida where outrageous things that don't seem real when you read them are being proposed when it comes to dealing with our country's children. later in the program allen weisselberg again already in prison at rikers for his work for the trump oregon, he could turn out to be a key witness in another alleged crime committed by the twice impeached ex-president. how manhattan prosecutors may be turning up the pressure on him. deadline white house continues

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yesterday the department of defense announced that we have detected and we're tracking a high altitude surveillance balloon that remains over the continental united states. we continue to track and monitor the balloon closely. we're confident this is a chinese surveillance balloon. i made clear the presence of this surveillance balloon in u.s. airspace and a clear violation of u.s. sovereignty and international law, that it's an irresponsible act and that the prc's decision to take this action on the eve of my planned visit is detrimental to the

substantive discussions we were prepared to have. >> part terrifying mystery, part "snl" skit, that was secretary of state antony blinken in just the last hour on what is now a postponed trip to beijing in which he was expected to meet with president xi jinping after the u.s. announce yesterday that chinese high altitude balloon was spotted hovering over the northwest part of the country. i think it was in montana at the time, saying it is an unacceptable violation of our sovereigty and must be removed from our airspace. the pentagon detected the balloon thursday over montana where officials said it was gathering intelligence about one of our country's military bases that operates and stores intercontinental ballistic missiles of all things. in a statement the pentagon secretary it hose poses no threat to those on the ground. china stated the balloon was for

civilian research and had gone off course. general mccaffrey, a former member of the national security counsel. and while on the house she served as vice chair of the armed services committee. general mccaffrey, this has already i think seeped into our culture, everyone everywhere is asking why don't we just shoot it down including all of the republican primary candidates people like mike pompeo and nikki haley. why don't we just shoot it down? >> there's a lot of theatrical bravado going on in washington. what a thoughtful, measured, sober-minded experienced diplomat he is. this is a provocation. looks like it's an uncoordinated action by the chinese military. it's hardly a covert collection device. these balloons are up at

100,000, 150,000 feet. it was seen by pilots, commercial pilots, photographed on the ground hovering over 150 icbm interballistic missile airspace. it's a brutal move on the part of the chinese, and their denial is expected but doesn't make any sense, so i think shooting it down opens us to the pla then one upping all this. we collect at sea and offshore in the air and possibly by other means against china. we don't want this to turn into a shooting war. this thing represents no kinetic threat for the united states. by the way it is a pretty good collection device for poorer countries, stays up slowly over a site and they can guide it somewhat by air currents. at 150,000 feet it's a lot lower than 300 mile suborbital

satellite, so the chinese really screwed this one up something terrible. >> i think the other thing that's going on, though, in conversations that i've heard in my own life is that the chinese look pretty brazen. why would they do this? >> my gut instinct is the pla got out in front, didn't coordinate it. the pla takes preimminence in his government. they're highly involved in internal security and suppression, aggressive action in the islands in japan, aggressive action in the south china state. the pla is worrisome it's less responsive to a whole of government control. this is not a good move. i mean why would they collect with something so visible from the target, and it didn't make

much sense from the start. secretary blinken wisely has postponed the trip to china. we had to respond in some way, but it seems unlikely that shooting it down accomplishes anything good and opens the door to other reactions from the pla. >> so congresswoman, what do we do? just let it flyover the rest of our country gathering stuff? >> well, i think that secretary blinken's delay, his travel postponement was absolutely the appropriate thing to do. i think we have to send a stronger signal to china we don't accept this type of surveillance collection in airspace over the united states. and, you know, i think we need to be more forward leaning towards their provocative action. and our national security strategy, it cleary outlines that we care about a free and open endo pacific, but at the same time we have allowed this continued provocation throughout

the region. we've drawn our allies in closer to japanese, the philippines as we saw with the base access. understand the one thing about this that might actually play out in a good way is that it's making the american people pay attention. as i was talking about china, talking about the investments we need to make in defense to deter china it sometimes went on deaf ears. but now when you can see this large balloon flying over montana partly trying to collect intelligence on u.s. nuclear assets people are paying attention to that. and i think maybe it can help drive discussion why these investments in defense is so important and why clarifying our policy in regards to china is so essential. >> the republicans position coming in is to cut defense spending and certainly makes it seem like an unwise idea.

can i ask a dumb question? do we fly surveillance balloons over other countries? >> it's certainly not the most advanced method of surveillance that we have, and without getting into specifics of all the different tools that we have, you know, i would say this is not a practice in which we engage with other countries. and, you know, as the general also said i see it as a provocation. why would you put the biggest thing, an enormous balloon moving slowly in the air at 60,000 or so feet visible from the ground over montana and have it loiter there? it seems as though this would be meant to have been detected. and then they're testing us, testing our reaction to this. so i think secretary blinken, you know, not traveling to china at this point is appropriate. but they're testing our reaction all the time every day. you know, i think that it goes unnoticed for the majority of americans not only over flight

of taiwanese airspace and intrusion into their waters, it was visible during former speaker pelosi's visit. but the maligned activities going on throughout the pacific with regards to interruption with fishing rights and the growth of the chinese navy specifically and the threat that could pose to a free and open endo pacific, i think that this is an opportunity to change that dialogue, to talk about that more and to really be more forward leaning on our policy and with our allies on how we need to react in the pacific. >> on that, general mccaffrey, if they're measuring how we respond and with the balloon, what are they telling themselves? that america noticed, they covered it on cable news, they canceled a trip, but what? i mean it's still flying all across our country gathering whatever it's gathering, and i think to most americans it looks like we didn't do anything. >> yeah, well, i think just

primarily a goofy move on the part of the pla. they're probably not coordinated in any way with the rest of their government. it didn't make much sense and it's not going to provide any significant new intelligence they didn't have before. they are clearly -- the congresswoman said -- provoking us. taiwan is the key. they are crossing the median line with naval and air power routinely now. they're leaning forward potentially considering not so much an invasion of taiwan as in blockade and isolation, they've been aggressive toward the japanese. but as we speak the biden administration has done pretty well and as secretary of defense lloyd austin did in the philippines just having signled a significant enhancement of our military presence to fill in a gap in sort of the island chain to isolate china from being out in the general pacific ocean.

so we're doing pretty well. we do have to ramp up u.s. navy and air power. we must invest in deterrence in the pacific. we're not adequately fully funded at present. >> general barry mccaffrey and elaine luria, any excuse to talk to you on a friday including a chinese balloon flying across our country is a pleasure and a privilege. thank you both of you for spending some time with us. up next it's a story so unbelievable it seems like something out of dystopian novel except it's really happening in ron desantis' florida. we'll talk about some of the things being planned in the most extreme pockets of red america. don't go anywhere. merica don't go anywhere. by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren,

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i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. after sweeping victories at every level in the state by democrats in these mid-term elections, legislators are hard at work protecting their constituents from republican maga-style extremism. that's in michigan, senators are working at expanding the state's civil rights act to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. similar bills have stalled in the legislature for decades. the bill likely will become law now that democrats have majorities in both chambers for the first time in 40 years. and the timing couldn't be more urgent as more and more red states are looking to follow what's happening in florida in

that state's lurch to the far right. governor ron desantis has made a name for him hfl ahead of an expected run for president in 2024, pushing one of the most damaging laws on one of florida's most vulnerable population, it's students and kids. case in point high school student athletes in the state of florida could soon be required to report their menstrual history, the dates of their cycles to their schools. the miami herald is reporting this, quote, a form if approved would ask students if they've had amen central cycle and if so at what age they had their first menstrual period, their most recent menstrual period and how many periods the students has had in the last 12 months. wow. joining us now michigan state democratic senator and outspoken advocate for lgbtq rights and all humans madeleine mcmorrow is back. it's just such a stunning

contrast, it's what democratic leadership control looks like in michigan next to what desantis is doing in florida that i think is the most jarring. it's not in a vacuum. it's literally moving backward compared to moving forward. what do you think when you see it? >> i think that's exactly right. and governor whitmer laid out in her state of the state address, she said bigotry is bad for business. and just to put a finer point on that, i want to talk about just how dystopian and creepy what is happening in florida is right now. the idea that out of any lgbtq issues, that the state and schools would be asking to track girls periods is just disgusting. there's one party right now that consistently wants to talk about genitals and menstrual cycles, and then there's michigan where we are going in a very different direction. we are saying loudly everybody is welcome here. if you want to make it, you can

make it in michigan, and i think it's a bet that we're going to win as a long run. >> you know, a mistake that people like myself made during the trump years was looking for the bottom and sort of projecting and maybe covering it as a false reassurance to our viewers, okay, we're here, here it is, here's the worst thing that's going to happen. grab women in the bleep wasn't it but it's people on both sides -- no, no, it's stealing election -- no, no, it's having dinner with nick fuentes and -- i think everything is so appalling. don't say gay, tell us your menstrual cycles. to your point to the dystopian tone what is the natural end he's made clear he's heading? >> you know, i think that is the lesson we have to learn, that there is no bottom. and when people are showing you whool they are, believe them. what happened in michigan in 2016 is that a lot of people were willing to turn a blind eye towards donald trump bragging about sexual assault, demonizing

immigrants, demonizing the handicap for this promise that he was going to make america great again especially in a state like ours that is built on manufacturing, people really wanted to hold onto that economic promise. and it didn't come to fruition. there was no economic gain. it's just culture wars. and ron desantis, a lot of republicans are holding him up as the future nominee. he's the rational one. he's not as crazy as donald trump, but this is crazy, and we have to recognize that right now, paint him for what he is. this is -- it's gis gusting. you know, this is the same type of behavior we saw in michigan with larry nassar who wanted to know about girls and their periods and get into violation that we should not stand for. we need to call it right now and recognize him for who he is. >> in michigan you and governor whitmer and secretary of state jocelyn benson, you have an

ability -- and we have studied it here -- but there is a language of inclusion. it is not democratic priorities and principles just for us the democrats in the state. it is policies that are appropriate for this moment but also acknowledge economic anxiety and seek to lift everybody up. how do you take that and build this sort of permanent coalition coast to coast? >> i'm really excited about the pathway that we're laying in michigan, and i don't think it's a mistake that you see a state now led by women who vividly remember we're never going to forget what happened in 2016, and i think the lesson that we've all learned is that you have to do both. we have to lay out our democratic values when it comes to social issues and inclusion. and we also have to do the work to make the economy work for everybody. so here already we've passed legislation to expand the earned

income tax credit. we've passed ledge slaegz to repeal the retired attack. this is attacks government snider put on pensioners to give a $1.8 billion break to businesses when he was here. so we're taking that back so that seniors can retire with dignity on a fixed income, and we're showing you can do both. we can be inclusive and help everybody here deal with the challenges of inflation and move forward in a way we're protecting everybody. >> yeah, i think one of the things that everybody, i mean media, we fall into the right likes to paint false choices. if you can't have this, you can't have that. and you guys are writing the play book how to blow that out. we're going to ask michigan state senator to stay through a quick break. we'll both be right back. quick break. we'll both be right back

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or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. christian married suburban mom who knows that the very notion that learning about slavery or redlining or system racism somehow means children are being taught to feel bad or hate themselves because they are white is absolute nonsense. no child live today is responsible for slavery. no one in this room is responsible for slavery. but each and every single one of us bears responsibility for writing the next chapter of history. >> so i thought of that when we

have covered this week, the news, not just in the state of florida to do away with some of the a.p. history courses focused on african american studies, but to influence them at a national level. i wanted injury thoughts on that story. >> you know, it's not surprising but it's so devastating that this continues to be the playbook that there were no lessons learned from 2022 for republicans. if they had learned they would recognize that the culture wars are not a winning strategy, but the strategy now seems to be double and triple down. we have to split people apart, force people to hate each other, and it's going to be on the rest of us. i think about it every day. those of us who are comfortable to stand up and say no and that has to happen in every state and especially as we head into 2024. >> specifically, around the issue of police refofrm, seems

to surge to agendas in washington when we, as a country, and, you know, i am not saying it affects everyone, but the trauma of watching a young black man beaten by police officers is, you know, roiling the country right now. but the agenda isn't always front and center. i thought again of your speech and wonder what you think the responsibility is of all citizens to keep that issue front and center. >> it's all of our responsibility. i now represent a district that covers the entire racial and economic spectrum in michigan from detroit through birmingham. when i talk to detroit residents they want police who are responsive, who show up when they are called and they want communities to be safe for everybody and that means for everybody. sarah anthony, our new appropriations chair, the first black woman to hold that position in the state, had a speech this week that said she wants to know her little brother is safe driving around, yes,

when he has a hoodie on. we have to keep pushing for that. all of us have to stand up and say these things are not at odds with each other. we can support police and we can support accountability. we can support funding for recruitment and we can ensure that people who abuse this power are held responsible. and a lot of that is just rejecting the dichotomy that republicans have tried to force on us time and time again that it's black or white, it's one or the other, and it's not. it's both and we all have to stand up and say so. >> michigan lived through and your governor, obviously, prevailed politically and in terms of her personal safety, thank god, a brutal plot against her by violent extremists. as you watch again a republican party really grapple, not even grapple, but move towards more guns being allowed in hearing rooms, towards elevating people who are instrumental in the

insurrection, what are your warnings for them as they seem to not take the threat of political violence seriously? >> i think we have to take 2022 as a sign of hope, that there was a lot of concern about violence and chaos and what i take away from the 2022 midterms is that decency prevailed, prevailed, but it will take constant work. the attorney general just testified in front of our new elections committee about the need to stiffen penalties. the fact that it is the same penalty if you falsify a $200 check as it is if you spread misinformation about elections. and that's not okay. we have to make sure there are stiff penalties that people will be held responsible for this. i am concerned, encouraged, actually, that it feels like a smaller group, but we have to make sure we continue that process moving forward and we stay as engaged as we were in the midterms as we head into the

next major election cycle. >> it's always great to focus in on what's happening there. michigan state senator, mallory mcmorrow, thank you for spending time with us today on this. >> thank you. up next for us, new pressure from prosecutors is being applied right now as we speak to donald trump's former cfo as a brand-new blockbuster book is shining a bright light on the manhattan d.a.'s investigation into the ex-president's finances. nbc news has just obtained those exemption, we will bring them to you next. don't go anywhere. we will brino you next don't go anywhere. metastatic breast cancer are living longer with kisqali. so, long live family time. long live dreams. and long live you. kisqali is a pill proven to help women live longer when taken with an aromatase inhibitor. and kisqali helps preserve quality of life. so you're not just living, you're living well. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions,

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years later, as he was now going to be entering the final stage of the campaign, he is already the republican candidate, she returns, meaning stormy daniels, and i'm in communication with keith davidson, her attorney. we negotiate a settlement. this is all done with donald, with allen weisselberg. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york with allen weisselberg. he was always in the room. always by his boss' side. the former trump org cfo serving five months at rikers for his role in the company's criminal tax fraud scheme also has direct knowledge of lots of other things, including the hush-money payments made to stormy daniels. new reporting reveals the manhattan d.a., who is moving full steam ahead now with his criminal investigation into the hush-money payment is looking to turn up the heat on the man who

could be a key witness from "the new york times" reporting, as a manhattan d.a. to indict trump, his prosecutors are using a prospect of additional charges to exert leverage over mr. weisselberg according to people with knowledge of the matter. the potential charges, which prosecutors conveyed to the former executive's legal team this week, center on insurance fraud and could lead to a significant prison sentence for mr. weisselberg, who is 75. the loyal trump employee did not flip on the ex-president in the last investigation that as "the times" is reporting this could change his calculus. quote, the potential new charges are unrelated to the hush-money but he has long been the missing piece in any criminal case against the former president. the threat of prison time could change the equation for mr. weisselberg who could face a stark choice. serving significant time behind bars late in his life or turning

on the former president whose finances he handled for decades. off the heels of that news, "the times" is out this afternoon with a preview of a new book that could have devastating consequences for alvin bragg and his office. the book is written by mark pomerantz, he is a prosecutor who resigned from bragg's office last year after bragg chose not to indict trump at that time. "the times" reports this. quote, for months beforehand mr. pomerantz had mapped out a wide ranging possible case against the former president under the state racketeering law. the "people vs. donald trump," that broader approach based on a theory that trump presided over a corrupt business empire for years, a previously unreported aspect of the long running inquiry. mr. pomerantz and his colleagues cast a wide net examining trump enterprises, trump university, his education venture and his family charitable foundation.

he demanded absolute loyalty. he seemed always to stay one step ahead of the law. mr. pomerantz, a prominent litigator who has prosecuted and defended organized crime cases writes of trump, quote, in my career as a lawyer i had encountered only one other person who touched all these bases. john gotti, the head of the gambino organized crime family. now, lucky for us mark pomerantz will be our guest on this set on tuesday. we can ask him all about what he is writing. we are only seeing snippets of it. putting the squeeze on the former trump organizations is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters, barbara mcquade, a law professor the university of michigan, andrew weissman, former justice department prosecutor, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation, with me at the table tim o'brien, bloomberg

opinion senior executive editor and host of bloomberg's crash course podcast. lucky for us, they are all msnbc contributors. let me show you former fbi director jim comey on trump aka the mob. >> how strange is it for you to sit here and compare the president to a mob boss? >> very strange. and i don't do it lightly. i am not trying to, by the way, suggest that president trump is out breaking legs and shaking down shopkeepers, but instead what i'm talking about is that leadership culture constantly comes back to me when i think about my experience with the trump administration. >> andrew weissman, people up close and personal to donald trump and something that comes through in the transcripts that have been released by the january 6th select committee, people who interacted with trump describe him the way jim comey and mark pomerantz seem to. you have investigated his inner circle. does that ring true?

>> it does. and i remember hearing jim comey say that and even though i was going to be working on the special counsel investigation, i remember at the time thinking that that was a lot of hyperbole by jim and sort of poo-poo'd that. and the more i looked into it, i unfortunately really had to agree that, and again i think it's important to note that he is not saying that he is like him in terms of the kind of murder and equating the types of crimes to what the former president did. but in terms of what he expects in terms of loyalty, the disregard for the rule of law, the idea that, you know, you owe everything to him and not to the constitution in any way, unfortunately i do think that

that is an accurate assessment. so i think this is a place where what mark pomerantz reports is something that i don't think that's the new part of this story. i think it's confirmatory of what, frankly, all of us have lived through for, you know, quite some time with the former president. >> well, i am not going to be able to think of a good mob movie off the top of my head. i have been brushing up. michael cohen comes out of the trump org and describes trump as exactly like a mob boss. even to testify before congress he wouldn'tk explicit, but you know what he wanted you to do. michael cohen has been open about the fact that he spent time with alvin bragg's office since he has been running it and since before when mark pomerantz was running this investigation. was it surprising to you at all to understand that they were putting together a racketeering

case? >> you know, it's not -- it wasn't totally surprising. i mean, it's also, according to "the new york times" reporting, it's something that mark and apparently the team looked at. but then they discarded it. in other words, by the time that sort of late december and when the vance administration was winding down and the bragg administration was starting, that idea of bringing this sort of enterprise or rico case seems like it had been abandoned according to "the new york times" and it was a much more focused case. and that makes sense. i mean, a lot of times when you are starting to investigate, you have different theories and you explore different avenues and you end up somewhere else. let me give you one quick amusing vignette of relating this to the mob. when i was in the special counsel and i reported this, which i remember we were dealing with counsel for don jr. and i pick up the phone and on the

other side is a very good lawyer in new york. the last time i spoke to him, he represented a soldier in the colombo campus in a murder case. that's the last time i talked to him. now he was calling me to say he represented the son of the president. >> amazing. >> now, normally, again, no disrespect to alan, but that's not typically who you would see, i mean, usually you you see the likes of david kendall and this sort of absolute cream of the crop, you know, representing people at that level. so that was surprising to me. >> and not to get on too much of a tangent, but i think don jr., what doesn't show up or takes -- i mean, i think the report bears out some of what might be that lawyer's style. i want to press you on one more thing. you write in your book about not

getting into all of trump's finances as in depth as what might have been beneficial. here is what pomerantz writes about trump's finances. our conclusion from all of this work was that trump's financial statements that overstated the value of his assets by massive amounts, the analysis focused on the years between 2011 and 2017, the overvaluations cut across all assets meant he reported asset values on average double what they were worth. the pattern continued year after year. the assets and amounts shifted but the pattern was unmistakable. it had to be intentional, which is what michael cohen told us. you weren't looking at financial fraud, but just the x-ray that financial documents provide to a man and how he has conducted himself are undeniable, right? >> absolutely. and this is where we do have the benefit of the very, very detailed civil complaint that was brought by the new york

attorney general that is letitia james. that's a civil case, not a criminal case. but that lays out in detail, nicole, exactly what you are talking about, which is these wildly inflated valuations over and over again, including donald trump's own home where he, you know, says it's over 30,000 square feet when it's actually over -- it's under 11,000 square feet. and the valuation is over $300 million. when he becomes president and people are looking at what he is saying, he slashes that valuations by hundreds of millions of dollars. so there is just this pattern of inflating assets when you are trying to get loans from banks, but deflating all of that when you're trying to figure out how to pay less taxes. so that's sort of repeated scheme a something that apparently not only has mark looked at, but apparently is

something that alvin bragg's office is continuing to look at. >> let me read more of this, tim. another person very familiar with trump's finances and how close or far they stray from the truth. this sister from the new book. it's called "people vs. donald trump." this is on the golf courses. how had a golf club trump bought for $5 million? december come to be worth $62 million six months later? the answer emerged from the testimony of jeffrey mcconney, one of trump's employees deposed by the a.g. in 2020. he paid $5 million to bite golf course in december 2012 but he had taken on $40 million in possible liability to the members of the golf club. trump's financial statements said that he had decided to value this liability at zero. a careful study of the testimony revealed that the liability trump valued at zero had been used to boost the club's

purported value to $62 million. i am not good at math but i know those numbers don't add up. >> they don't add up. most of donald trump's finances, the stuff he says publicly never add up. this was at the core of the lawsuit he filed against me was because the book accuratery reported he spent decades insplating the value of everything he touched. during the litigation when we were deposing him we asked how he valued the golf courses. he said i don't keep dmi documents. >> i don't keep any documents? >> you don't keep a profit and loss statement? he said, no, no, no. i said, how do you know they are with their worth? he said mental projections. he has basically gone through his whole life mentally projecting towards everything around him. i think the issue is, yes, of course, he inflated it these things forever and of course he lies and he engages in exaggeration and hyperbole. the challenge for prosecutors is

so prove that was a crime. and i think that was the thing that store apart the d.a.'s own team. all of them had good intentions. mark pomerantz ended up on one side of the equation and other people in the office ended up on another side and they couldn't resolve their ditches whether they could take this excellent evidence to court, charge him criminally and prove he knew what he was doing. ultimately bragg walks in, he inherits an investigation that cy vance had launched. cy vance leaves. he dumps this on bragg's desk. bragg decides he doesn't have the goods and mark pomerantz leaves the office. i think there is a good faith argument on both sides of that divided office about whether there was a case or whether there wasn't. i think the thing that's interesting now is i think you have a different afoot in an office. they may still be looking at bank fraud, but i think what they are pressing allen

weisselberg on is accounting fraud. and in addition to the payments to stormy daniels. and it's an entirely different case. and i think they are starting to put the screws to weisselberg on that and to jeff mcconney. there were only three senior people in trump's office who made most of the big decisions before they were brought to trump. and nobody did anything in that office without trump signing off on it. any of those people who can lay evidentiary trail to trump's feet in which they were engaging in accounting fraud and he knew what he was doing and prove intent, they have a nice criminal case against him. and i think there might be new fire in bragg's investigation. the only they are -- >> why? >> because i think they are putting the screws to the guys. i think it's a classic prosectorial strategy. you turn some of the witnesses into hamburger. you grind them through the grinder. and you get them to provide evidence on others.

then you move up the food chain until you get the person at the top of what mark pomerantz describes as a criminal enterprise. and i think it seems like they are on that path. i am not inside the office, so i don't know. and the one thing i wanted to say about john gotti. trump told me once in an interview about how much he admired john gotti. >> of course he did. >> yeah. >> of course he did. not george washington -- >> he said that guy sat in the courtroom and everybody was coming at him and he never shed a tear. that's the kind of guy i admire. you know, this speaks to so many things. trump's own wild insecurity -- >> sadism. >> his sadism. the way he add mirs thugs, whether it's john gotti or vladimir putin. and i think it's interesting that pomerantz has surfaced john gotti in all of this again, too. >> my mind is blown.

might take me four seconds to find my next piece of paper here. on the weisselberg piece, we have had a lot of conversations, you and i, about what might be happening as he is on his way to rikers, as he gets the room at rikers, it's still rikers, it has a coffee pot, who might be on his mind in terms of how helpful he might be. we assume now if one settles in at rikers he is in the settling in phase. here is what "the times" writes about the weisselberg piece. quote, the basis for an insurance fraud charge against mr. weisselberg emerged in a court filing last year as part of the new york attorney general's civil investigation into trump and his family business. that inquiry separate from the district attorney's criminal investigation eventually resulted in a september lawsuit against trump. three of his adult children and his company. it's scheduled to go to trial in the fall. i guess my question is, if that exposure was known to al weisselberg and his team that long, why is it now something that they could use to borrow

tim's language, you know, turn the screws on him with? >> well, those charges were filed in a civil case where the standard of proof is preponderance of the etched. when alvin bragg walked away, it appeared apparent they weren't pursuing this criminally. things apparently have changed. it could be tax investigation where weisselberg was convicted and the trump organization was convicted. when you put a case together for trial you dig through every piece of paper and it could be they found stronger evidence that made them lead to this case as a criminal charge. and so i don't know how optimistic i would be about whether allen weisselberg is going to cooperate against donald trump. in that tax case he agreed to cooperate against the trump organization, by he said he didn't have any information against donald trump himself. maybe he did. maybe he didn't. but it's hard to imagine that he was willing to go to rikers island for five months and held

back something he knew about donald trump and yet would be willing to change his mind now. but nonetheless, i suppose once you have a taste of rikers island and the thought for staying longer than five months, maybe that is more persuasive than any words could be. >> i am not making any commentary about mr. weisselberger, but watching your family watch you go through that can have some unexpected traumatic results. and i don't know anything about his family. but i wonder if that figures in some of the timing on going to a witness as essential as mr. weisselberg. i want to ask you, barb, we are going to have mark pomerantz here on tuesday, so we will get a chance to ask him and get to share everything in the book. all that is available now to nbc news is one chapter and i have read some of what has been written publicly. so that's all we have seen so far. there have been some people, i mean, people like michael cohen, people like donny deutsch,

people around the trump orbit for a long time have always thought that a racketeering investigation might be the only way to capture all of the bad/criminal conduct that happens under the umbrella of trump. what do you think of that reporting? whether it was ultimately abandoned. obviously, we haven't seen that. what do you make of that approach to investigating all of trump's enterprises? >> yeah, so first, proving any kind of a white collar case requires willful intent, which can be very difficult to do. it's why people that these crime organizations and white collar criminal organizations sometimes get away with crimes because proving that intent can be so difficult. it's not impossible. jurors are instructed to look at the totality of the circumstances, including all of the facts and all of the things people said. when it comes to racketeering, that is a great tool when you want to bring under one umbrella a lot of different criminal

schemes. but they were all done as part of a pattern of an association. and so that association may be the trump organization. but you could include under one umbrella acts of extortion, bribery, fraud, threats, tax offenses, all of those things can come together because there is one scheme, one goal to advance the financial fortunes of that organization and that everybody understood the hierarchy and everybody understood what the game was all about. and so in that way it can be very useful. it can extend the statute of limitations reaching back as long as you have a last act occurring within five years. you can bring in a federico prosecution, both federal and state predicate crimes. it's a way of bringing in together what might otherwise be separate cases, but it allows a jury to understand the full scope of criminal activity. you know, based on the things that we are hearing about how donald trump conducted his business, we haven't seen the evidence of it, but it certainly

is consistent with the kinds of cases that are often brought in racketeering cases. >> i want to give you the last word. i'm still just wrapped around what you said about his admiration of john gotti and i'm mad at myself for being surprised it. i don't know why i'm horrified that he admires john gotti. >> i'm surprised you're surprised. >> i guess my question would be, i think he likes that. when he sees that someone saw him as john gotti, you can imagine him incriminating himself. damn right i'm john gotti. >> yeah, i think he does not want to be seen as john gotti the criminal. i think he wants to be seen as john gotti the tough thug and he certainly in a courtroom he would not want to be gard to gotti. but he has people who can flip on him. it is like a mob investigation. allen weisselberg, i was in an office the trump tower with him once and they were supposed to

show me trump's assets adding up to $6 billion. we went down the list of assets. at the end it was 5 billion. i said, allen, this adds up to $5 billion. he said, let me go to the my office and find that other billion. >> to be continued. thank you for being at the table. when we come back brand-new reporting about the scramble inside the intelligence community to assess the potential damage in the wake of the indictment of a senior fbi official accused working for the russian oligarch he was supposed to be investigator. plus, the gun cult that is today's gop takes a dark turn with some maga members of congress replacing their american flag lapel pins with pins of the ar-15. the killing machine used in countless mass shootings in america. later, our friend al sharpton on the way forward on police reform after the brutal murder of tyre nichols.

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good evening. tonight the fbi has under lock and key one of its own. a veteran fbi agent with access to the most sensitive and highly classified information in the united states government. information that he is suspected of selling to the russians for 15 years. >> fbi agents searched the washington home of one of their own in the worst spy case in fbi history. robert philip hanson, a 25 year

veteran of the fbi. aged 56, specialized in the secretive world of counterespionage. his job keeping tabs on suspected russian spice in the u.s., monitoring soviet and russian missions in new york and eshzs in washington. >> and that story broke 22 years ago this month. the case that robert hanson, a veteran fbi agent, turned russian mole, was understandably a worldwide bombshell with massive national security and intelligence implications all around the world. now more than two decades later, the robert hanson case is newly relevant, cited again thanks to charles mcgonigal, the fbi chief arrested last week on charges related to money laund ridge and violating u.s. sanctions on russia. mike hanson, mcgonigal is a veteran fbi agent who held key positions in counterintelligence. he had access to some of the nation's most sensitive, most

closely guarded secrets. and like hanson, mcgonigal is accused of working with and for some of the individuals he was supposed to be investigating. now, in mcgonigal's case that individual was the notorious russian oligarch oleg dare poska. he has not been charged with espionage. the indictments say nothing about that. but according to "the new york times" latest reporting, the arrest has, quote, set off a scramble within the bureau to assess the potential damage and determine whether any counterintelligence or law enforcement operations were compromised with fbi director christopher wray treating the case as a top priority. former fbi counterintelligence officer told "the times," quote, it puts a question mark next to everything mcgonigal was involved in. the earliest crimes which he is accused date to august 2017. but the fbi's damage assessment

likely is looking back much further. he may have lied while with the bureau about his acceptance of cash from a business associate and contacts with foreign individuals has also raised concerns about the breadth and duration of the possible deceptions. as we have said before this program, charles mcgone cal al case raises more questions. the betrayal of the agency by someone of mr. mcgonigal's stature for $225,000 if proved would be surprising given former officials can earn significant sums as consultants after retirement on top of hefty pensions. something that is surprising but not unprecedented since robert hanson began cooperating with the russians in the late 1970s while he was a counterintelligence officer in a unit in new york. so many questions.

joining us to help us try to answer them, "new york times" reporter ken vogel. and frank, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence now an msnbc national security analyst. ken, take me through what you guys are reporting. >> well, you hit on some of the shy lights. questions about when this activity started and what type of damage may have been incurred by the bureau are at the crux of this. indictment charges crimes starting in 2017. there is a big difference between what the justice department can charge, prosecutors believe is a strong case, and what the activity may have been and the damage it may have done to the bureau which could have started far earlier. the 2017 activity relates to some work that he did with these albanian officials, including the prime minister of albania, and, you know, he's actually taking steps to use the bureau,

sort of weaponize the bureau against the prime minister's rivals, is the allegation there. you're right. it's not espionage. in some ways worse because he actually using the bureau to help his clients, his -- the clients that he had that he did not report to the fbi. there is a lot there. and i think we're only seeing just the very tip of the iceberg in these two charges, in the two indictments. >> i mean, ken, is that behavior that would, if an investigation continues down those lines, would question or probe whether or not he was acting as an agent for them? i mean, you are talking about using the fbi on behalf of foreign clients? >> yeah, and that's certainly the sort of bigger picture here. there is this and illuminates this industry, this lucrative industry we see where there are americans who are willing to

take big sums of money from foreign interests who want to avail themselves of the americans' connections to the law enforcement community, the intelligence community, to get themselves out of trouble, like in the case of -- he is sanctioned and wants to get out of sanctions or the albanians, the allegations here are that they wanted to use the u.s. law enforcement community to go after their rivals and they found allegedly again a willing participant in charles mcgonigal who was at the time at the fbi. there is this industry that happens when people leave the fbi or the intelligence community and get paid huge sums of money. we are seeing a more insidious aspect of it, someone still in the law enforcement community who is accepting sums to try to navigate and manipulate the law enforcement community to the benefit of his foreign clients. >> frank, there is a conversation about the ethics of what ken is describing, that when you leave, how do you use

your expertise, particularly when it is a national security expertise. but i think ken's reporting is inching at something probably a lot more pressing to law enforcement and prosecutors, and that is what other crimes might he have committed and when did they start and might there be more money than the $225,000. what are your questions in those areas? >> a lot of questions. some of the same questions i am sure the fbi is pursuing right now. the conduct alleged in these two indictments out of washington and new york clearly points to a corrupt senior executive in the fbi, both during the tail end of his tenure and afterwards. the big question is beyond corruption, are we actually talking about someone who might have turned into a spy. did a top spy catcher become a spy himself? and if so, when? and so you're talking about someone who led the counterintelligence program in the largest fbi field office in

the nation, new york, and not only that, but throughout his career worked literally some of the most sensitive investigations and operations in the u.s. intelligence community. so they've got to do a damage assessment that reaches backward in time. and one of the things i'm fascinated by is whether this is going to move forward with additional allegations, even possibly with additional fbi personnel retired likely. there has been some reporting that touches on that possibility. and also, you know, the money thing. i'm fascinated by of course the study of people who go south and are corrupt or spy. the fbi has conducted extensive study of everyone ever convicted in the united states of espionage and come up with certain conclusions, but we all are wondering which one of those traits, characteristics, scenarios applies to charlie

mcgonigal? was it debt? was it bitterness? was it ego? did he think he should have been higher than he was? by the way, can't get much higher. he could have gone on from new york state and the fbi and become an assistant director. could have named -- has been implied named his corporate job. i take some issue with the notion he could have been paid the kind of money in the corporate world he would have received if he kept doing this. we are seeing information leading that points to tens of thousands of dollars drafted in contracts. $500,000 being bandied about from introduction involving u.n. officials. you can't make that kind of money in corporate security. so what was going on? when did it start? what did he touch? everything is being looked at. >> frank, i worked in government. everyone has to -- has a right to make money in the private sector and his expertise was national security. but to your point about the profile of people who spy, i

mean, what is the profile of people who leave the fbi and don't, which i imagine is 99.999% of people. it can't be hard to leave and use your expertise for good. most people don't go to work for an international criminal. who takes that account? >> yeah. here is a possible theory because i actually our careers intersected briefly, three or four months when i was at the tail end of my career. i know what charlie is capable of. great hard charging counterintelligence work, and i predict we will see a defense here. i can see this coming, that he started with the intent of recruiting some of these people. there is a problem with that because when you are the special agent in charge of something in new york, you are in the recruitment business. you hand this stuff off as a senior executive if you have the opportunity, right. so he is going to say that. but then i can see this quickly

falling flat, you know, because we see allegations of money-laundering and cutouts and bank accounts and envelopes of cash being handed to him and cars and bags of money and his apartment. so, you know, he is violating the law, lying on financial disclosure forms. so this will fall flat. i can see where he might have tried it. and then they recruited him, is what seems to be happening, and there was classic tradecraft here. he was tasked to get this lady into an internship. that's tasking. he should have seen this coming. so the question of ethics and law just because something -- just because something is not illegal doesn't mean it's ethical. and i think that's part of the issue here. >> it is one of the most fascinating things happening out there. ken, glad you are on the beat. thank you for joining us to talk about your story. frank, you are sticking around a little bit longer. when we come back maga republicans sinking to new

dystopian depts as they honor a weapon of war used in countless mass shootings in the united states. that story after a quick break. k s through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee, even if it received ppp, and all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then we'll work with you to fill out your forms and submit the application; that easy. and if your business doesn't get paid, we don't get paid. getrefunds.com has helped businesses like yours claim over $2 billion but it's only available for a limited time. go to getrefunds.com, powered by innovation refunds.

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assault-style weapon. >> the killers in uvalde, buffalo, parkland and newtown used an ar-15 style rifle. >> it is insane. the governor talks about mental health. it is insane we allowed an 18-year-old to buy an ar-15. what the hell did we think he was going to could with that? this is on us. >> it is a tragic fact but a fact nonetheless that mass shooters in our country choose ar-15s most of the time as their weapon of choice. it was true at sandy hook. it was true in san bernardino. it was true in las vegas. it was true in parkland. our list could go on and on. we only have two hours. this week in some kind of bizarre obnoxious display, two freshman maga republican members of congress, anna paulina luna and serial liar george santos walked through the halls of the u.s. capitol this week wearing large ar-15 pins in the same

spot on their lapels where normal people wear the american flag. where the congressional seal or anything else goes. their timing could not be worse. it comes less than two weeks after a string of deadly mass shootings in america, in california. and while the country lives with the horrifying reality of deadly gun violence nearly every single day. republican congressman andrew clyde, that's the guy would called january 6th a, quote, normal tourist visit, gleefully took credit for handing out the pins because of the second amendment's, quote, importance in preserving our liberties, end quote. clyde said he has plenty more pins to give out. let's bring in our coverage. the reverend al sharpton, host of msnbc's "politicsnation" and the president of the national action network. frank is back with us. frank, what does the glorification by celebrating the ar-15 on a lawmaker's lapel do

to the gun enthusiasts? >> boy, it identifies what really matters to these folks, which is the ability to commit mass violence. the data is there, nicole, as you cited. it's incontrovertible that mass shootings are by and large conducted with assault-style weapons. period, end of discussion. when you wear that lapel on -- that pin on your lapel, you are saying i'm all about that. sign me up for that. and step further here. i'm owned by the nra. this is who i belong to. so instead of the american flag on the lapel, as many lawmakers do, instead of i have seen a christian cross, i have seen lawmakers wear, we have replaced those symbols with an assault weapon. that's who we seem to stand for these days. and the man who is handing these out, andrew clyde from georgia,

yeah, he profits from the gun industry. he has the fourth ranked gun store in the state of georgia. so let's look at this for what it is. not an assertion of the second amendment. the right to keep and bear arms. rather, profit killing and replacing american values with violence. >> rev, i know you have had a really long week, but this story, you know, the republicans keep showing us who they are, and i'm looking, but do you feel like everyone sees what's happening here? >> i hope they do. i mean, you know, maya angelou said if somebody tells you who they are the first time, believe them. when you are walking around the congress and you are wearing an ar-15 that you couldn't say is for hunting, you couldn't say for any of the excuses they have been giving us for the last several years through the mass shootings, what are you saying to us now that you are now not

only saying that your second amendment right, you are showing us the normalizing of the instrument of mass killing. i mean, have we gotten that sick to where we are just running around parading, advertising on our lapels what has wiped out all the people that you named in each one of those disasters. and this is sick. i wouldn't expect any better from george santos. but for others in the republican caucus, not to be attacking there, you are talking about omar and -- you are talking about people are wearing this on their lapel. how do the victims of all these mass killings families feel seeing members of congress walking around with ar-15 buttons on their lapel? >> thank you for sticking around with us. the rev is staying around to talk about the eulogy he delivered for tyre nichols and the path to police reform. don't go anywhere. don't go anyw.

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people had to march and go to jail and some last lost their lives to open the door for you, and how dare you. >> rev, you were still talking when that part of your eulogy started trending. did you know you were going to say that, or does that come to you in the moment? >> always in the moment. i started as you know as a preacher so i never learned how to preach with a manuscript or a sermon. i wept off and did extemporaneously. but i felt that, i went that morning to the lorraine motel where martin luther king was killed, i did morning joe from there. and i thought about when i was a youngster jesse jackson brought me there and described to me because he was there that day how dr. king got killed. and saying we're like ten

minutes away from where that beat this guy to death and martin luther king was in memphis in 1968 fighting for city workers. and this is what he fought for. and all of that was in me when i went to the funeral, and it just had to come out because it's not like it was a normal thing just a few years ago for blacks to we on the elite squad of the police department or to have a black woman as the police chief. and now we're going to inflict the same pain on anyone -- it count center to be on a black man unarmed -- but on anyone we didn't want to get you in for you to behave in the ways you're acting just as bad or worse. this is inexcusable. and the pain of that mother and stepfather and siblings cannot

go unanswered. >> we were on together last friday i guess our show ended an hour before the tape came out, and what this young man was subjected to not just by the five others but the depraved indifference of the emergency responders, that everyone kind of pulls up and looks at his body that it's not a human being suffering gravely by that point is so horrific to me. and i wonder what our obligations is as human beings to make sure this stops. >> i think the obligation is they must be held accountable, first of all. because for them not to be held accountable is to make it normalized, which is why i'm glad in the last two years where my group works and other group work and attorney ben crump has seen people held accountable. i remember when we couldn't get police indicted. now you have the killers in

police in jail. we are seeing things where we did not ever have victory. now we need the law, federal law including dealing with this whole question of qualified immunity. and the president has addressed it. he met with the congressional black caucus, the vice president was at the funeral. the victories of the '60s was in changing the laws. that's what i learned from the king movement. we need to change the laws. if we can't change people's hearts, we can definitely change the law and make them abide by federal law. >> how do you make republicans and good cops, which is the majority of cops, part of the coalition who wants to change the laws? >> i think the fact that this was so brutal and so filmed as brutal -- like you said even when the emergency people got there they never checked him, they just let the man lay there. and the question i'm sure to come out at trial is if they had been more attemptive could he have lived.

he lived three days. and i think there's a lot of questions here. i think we're already in the 24th season we may be able to get some senator tuesday do what is right and what is decent. the president has invited and the congressional black caucus some of the victims around the country to be at the "state of the union." and i think that's good. we have a president that's setting the tone and a vice president. but the tone must be that we need to have law. how can we have a society that this is allowable? >> we should not. and for you i know you're the first people there when these families need you. it's really evident how important you are in their life watching everything. >> i i stay in their life. i'm dealing with families -- >> and you brought them all together. i saw all the families. >> i'm dealing with families we fought cases 30 years ago. they helped my kids grow up. and i think that you -- because you understand the bond, and i

think it's important that we understand that because they're human beings. they are not props for your next performance. >> rev, i am -- i am glad to be in your tv family. thank you for being here. and we'll be watching politics nation this weekend. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com.

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