>> they didn't want to create

any safety risks because there was an urgency here. this balloon is not armed, it

does not pose some physical threat to the united states, even from an intelligence perspective. the chinese have much more effective ways of picking up intelligence from the satellites and otherwise. the fact that the president said what he said about taking care of it. now we have the physical fact that the balloon is heading towards the atlantic. these airports in north and south carolina are being closed for the moment. it does seem to set the stage and present an opportunity to have this shot down. it is really not a reversal. i think they've been preparing for this and contingency planning. once it is not overland, it changes the calculus. >> general, weigh in for me if you will, you heard the presidents words there, we are going to take care of this. from your estimation, what is taking care of this look like and what are the risks and calculations going into that decision? >> i think what you'll see is,

once it gets over the continental united states, from the atlantic, i think you will find that the north american air defense command along with the northern command, the national security aide will make a recommendation to the president to shoot it down. what it will probably look like, given that this is around 60,000 feet in the air, we normally fly around 30 to 35,000 feet. you will probably see it come down by attack aviation assets, be at the f-16 fighter jet we will have you. i'm quite sure the air force will be involved in bringing down this balloon. >> general, if you will, as dan just mentioned, the chinese have more effective ways of spying and gathering intelligence and information. why in fact would they rely on something like this, a spy

balloon that is visible to the human eye? >> it is probably because they have hundreds of satellites that spy on us every day and look at geo intelligence. so something tells me that they wanted to get more fidelity. as you know, out in montana we have our nation's most sensitive sites out there with our new color triad. the monster airbase out there, be two bombers, we also have a new color silos. hovering over those locations for quite some time, that tells me that they want to get more fidelity in there as well as they may want to tap into what we call signal intelligence, cell phones out there, so phone towers, we need more information. that is what i think probably happened. >> do you think it was a mistake that the chinese --

was that something that they do not anticipate happening? i imagine this is not the first time that a spy balloon has hovered over the united states. >> no, i don't buy that this was a weather balloon. our nation has the ability to tap into various intelligence and i'm sure that our national security agency and our national intelligence committee, they have tapped into this balloon or tapped into chinese intelligence and been informed otherwise that this was not a weather balloon, but they actually collected on us. >> the united states, we have some pentagon budget documents last year detailing a new plan to increase u.s. spending for spy balloons as well for the united states. when you think about the commonality of the use of these types of surveillance, this

type of surveillance, how common is it? >> if you spend any time in afghanistan over the past 20 years, he would have seen balloons tethered, not flying solo, but actually tethered to the ground around all sorts of u.s. bases. it is a way of having awareness of what is out there. you put sensors on him and you can see from a distance. it is obviously a technology that has been around since world war i. it does have this use, it is also seen as a way of providing a missile air defense. in addition to radars on the ground, a balloon can help you if you're trying to track a low-flying cruise missile or a drone for example. these balloons do have utility. there's one other issue here, remember all these sightings of ufos and the report that the intelligence community just came out with.

that report in ambiguous language said that some of the ufos could be explained by balloons. they could have been balloons. you have to wonder whether there have been more of these chinese surveillance balloons and possibly drones elsewhere hovering around the u.s. or the u.s. coastline. this is not the first time this has happened. we are told that this has happened before. apparently, it was more along the coast or around hawaii, around guam. not in the middle of the continental u.s.. >> hey general, let me ask you this. if this thing is actually taken down and they're able to get agreements which i'm sure they're going to try to do. what can we learn about intelligence gathering when it comes to the chinese? >> you hit it. once we take it down, we need to be able to explore it. first of all, we need to look at the technology and see what technology they are using.

more importantly, we need to figure out just how much information this balloon was able to gather in terms of u.s., the whatever they're trying to see. we need to make sure we look hard at that and see what the chinese were able to gather from us. >> then, this is a dance with the united states right now. when you consider u.s. china relations, ongoing u.s. china relations, you consider this council meeting by the secretary of state over the last 24 hours or so. we have this reporting of this country, i should say. you have also these reports of the united states who also employ and you spy balance. is there a fear here of retribution if the u.s. comes down to hot in the sink? >> that is a big question.

i think for sure this is very much about diplomatic fallout. there has not been some kind of terrible national security damage inflicted by this balloon. if anything, this could actually be more uncomfortable and more awkward for the chinese if we were able to achieve this and exploit the equipment on there, gather some insight into what they're floating and flying. but, for sure this is not helpful for u.s. china lesions, already very tense. the idea of that trip that got canceled, it was to forge a dialogue, even amid some very difficult times and a lot of disagreements, to at least have some way of communicating with china and maybe lowering the temperatures slightly. this has not lower the temperature, this has complicated things. it could provide leverage for

the u.s. because it is the chinese that did this. it might provide some degree of leverage. no question, it is not helpful at all when the u.s. is trying to forge some kind of peaceful dialogue with china. >> general, who will you weigh in on that, pull on that thread which is, the possibility of providing some sort of leverage here for the united states in speaking with beijing? >> no doubt that there is significant mutual distrust between both of these countries. the reason why there's distrust, obviously the chinese seek to capture taiwan, number one. number two, they have militarized south china sea. and they look at us, that is how we look at them, and then they look at us, we are pushing forces in guam now. we just made a major agreement with the philippines to add troop rotations in the

philippines. and we made negotiations with japan. when you take a look at this, that causes friction. the chinese are not sure what we are doing, we are not sure what the chinese are doing. and so what i will tell you is, what we really need to do is, both of these countries, u.s., china need to make sure that we continue to open dialogue. we cannot have the two largest countries economically as well as militarily at each other's throat. we gotta make sure that we continue to open the dialogue. >> general, what does specifically shutting down a blue like this look like? what would the united states be using to take it down? >> i think they will use fighter jets to shoot it down. i don't know that for sure because i'm not an expert, but i suspect it will be a fighter jet. again, we want to make sure that whatever we used to take

it down, that we don't completely destroy it because the aim would be to explore this. >> louis, thank you. general, thank you. i know you can be sticking with me throughout the next two hours or so as we get more developments on this thing. i appreciate it, gentlemen. more breaking news everybody from south carolina. said to become the first state to vote in the democratic presidential primary, the vote was held just a short time ago, taking that steps away from iowa and new hampshire, which has enjoyed that position for decades now. joining us now is -- our political panel, daniel moody. marissa, let me start with you on this one. talk to me first about how iowa and new hampshire, the delegations there are reacting. >> i think the best litmus test for how they're reacting is when you look at the discussion that went on before that vote officially was underway. it was a lengthy discussion, there was a rotating cast of members who went to speak.

and every single one voted to dissent was from either iowa or new hampshire. that is a protectable thing, they are the ones that are most impacted by this. i will caucus has always been first for the last 50 years. alwaysyou would have the new hampshire primary for the last 100 years that has been the country's first primary. there's actually a state law that requires it to be first by a week, followed by another state in the country. the state law requires there to be the first one. we will get to that in just a moment. when we look at the arguments that were made to try to change that, as they successfully did to, the argument is that iowa and new hampshire were quote, to rural and not diverse enough to reflect the democratic voting base. so south carolina, we know just how key that was for president joe biden's last election here. but also, the argument is that states like south carolina more accurately reflect the democratic voting base, it is more inclusive.

when we look at this new schedule, this new order, south carolina followed by nevada. nevada has a strong female voting base. we are talking about them saying that they are going to allow a lack of voters and latino voters to have more voting power within the democratic party. when we talk about how iowa and new hampshire feeling, a lot of ire came from new hampshire members today. actually, a lot of heartbreaking responses. they said for them, they feel like their hands are tied because that state law is in effect. it is a republican-controlled state right now in every way. you have a republican governor who's not showing any signs of wanting to turn over that state law. what this means is, they said we don't know how to go forward with, this it means that essentially, our primary is useless, it is no. the dmz warns that if someone puts their name on a ballot for the democratic primary, there

will be consequences. they said they will lose delegates to the congressional national convention. it does make sense that those are the two states, iowa and new hampshire, but are feeling the most frustrated. of course, the most thunderous applause was when we heard from states like south carolina who are going to see the support. as one member from michigan said, this was also the loudest applause of the night. if not the one state with a monopoly on who goes first. although we did hear dissent, it does seem like, and as we saw, that the overwhelming majority here was in support of this historic change. >> i'm gonna let you get back to it, i appreciate you. daniel, if you away in for me, the significance of south carolina leading the primary calendar. we are just editor. getting more voice to the black and penal voting, you think about that in the context of what we've been dealing with in this country, the latest killing of tyre nichols of course. and also, the boost that south

carolina gave to now president joe biden back in the 2020 primary. >> i think that this comes from what we saw in 2020. the reality is that this has been a grievance of many in the democratic party for quite some time. i want new hampshire are not demographically representative of the united states anymore. and not the party as a whole. the opportunity to be a diverse state like georgia, like michigan, the ability to weigh in on a presidential election and participate fully in our democracy is something that is incredibly important. we saw how important south carolina was to joe biden being able to clinch the candidacy for the president in 2020. >> susan, i've to say, last night you're the vice president back-to-back speeches. it seems like a 2024 soft launch. it seemed like they are running

for reelection. although, not getting the official word as of yet. what did you make of it? >> they are great speeches, is what you're supposed to do. it was politically the right timing, especially after those job numbers that came out yesterday. biden moves into the state of the union and then he will make his move. one thing on the primary change, no one said this yet, but it had a tremendous effect on republican politics. because that means that independents won't be voting in the democratic primary as they sometimes do. it means every independent, if they're moving for a vote, will probably be in the republican party primary, which will change their calculus for a lot of candidates. >> that is a really good point. susan, thank you. daniel, thank you as well. great to see you both. all right everybody, let's talk about the cold. we can't get through it without talking about what is happening outside. the dangerous freeze across the

northeast, i think was to this morning when i woke up. it is about 20 right now, tens and millions facing temperatures that the national weather service is describing as a once in a generation cold front. bringing wind chills and temperatures 10 to 30 degrees below average throughout the region, with several cities setting to record lows. i want to bring in nbc's george who is right here outside admits this cold weather. here is michelle grossman as well. i hope you got a lot of layers on because it is freezing out there. talk to me, you have a lot of folks there who are having to deal with these frigid temperatures, how are they keeping people safe? >> epic generational outbreak, living up to its name. i have a thermometer here that i've been using to monitor the conditions this morning. i think actually broke because it's been stuck about 20 degrees since we've been out here. bitter, bitter cold of course. we are actually balmy compared

to some of the temperatures that have been occurring upstate, up in the northeast, the new england area. washington, that ridiculous number, minus 100 right with the observation center out there. but here in new york, people are still going about their day. they are taking some of those recommendations with health officials. limit your time outdoors, and if you're going to be out here, exactly like i am, bundled up to the nines. the hats, the gloves, that coal blew emergency. people without homes -- people finding shelter at the warming centers. officials also minding the utilities. this is something that becomes a concern when he gets this cold. i do want to point out, while i was out here, i talk some people, this was in the area who are, like we're not gonna let a little cold weather take away from our experience. but nonetheless, it is so cold, he was moment one woman had to tell me. >> definitely bundle up, don't take it for granted.

where your mittens, double up your pants. cover your face, wear a hat. that is the best advice i can give you. >> where is your hat? >> i know. i don't have enough hair. >> that's right, jasmine. wear your hat. sure, you may have a lot of hair, but it is a good idea to stay bundled up. the good news is, of course, this is expected to be short lived. temperatures expected to quickly rebound, unless punxsutawney phil has its way, we are looking potentially at six more weeks of winter. we really hope not because temperatures stay this cold, we are going to have some real, real problems on our hands. >> i gotta tell you, a sink it thinking the same thing. where's her hat? i thought about that with every person the past who didn't have a head on today. put your head on, cause of those coats, zip them up, this is not the day to be loosey-goosey when it comes to being outdoors. thank you george, i'm gonna let you get inside, thank you for that. michelle, walk us through this. george kind of talked about how

this is pre-short-lived. although, incredibly impactful. when are we going to get back to normal? >> the good news is, we're going to get back to normal by tomorrow. this is short lived. it is quick, we are going to warm up tomorrow. first, i want to say i'm so happy to see your happy and smiling, i'm so happy that you're healthy. second, let's go and look at mount washington. this picture almost looks like it is from a star trek or something. it is almost hard to wrap your head around what they're experiencing there. we're looking at temperatures 22 below zero. you factor in the winds, winds are gusting up to 70 miles per hour. washington sits at about 63 into the air. we're looking at wind chills, 67 below zero. i know, it doesn't look like it's on earth. but they had a windchill of 108 below zero earlier today. that broken all-time record for the u.s.. alaska had the latest record there. but getting to the graphics, we still have windchill warnings, remain, vermont, new hampshire, into upstate new york.

8 million people still under winter windchill warnings. that is what we are seeing those winds gusting. we have seen the winds relax in a lot of spots. we've seen the temperatures go up. but it is all relative because we are still really frigid. there is danger territory, we have the jet stream so far to the south, that is letting your front door open to really arctic cold canadian air. that is what we are seeing coming down from canada. we are gonna see it for the rest of the day before we start to really moderate. there is that big swing tomorrow. this is what we're looking at in terms of the temperatures. seven degrees in albany, six degrees in portland, single digits, also in binghamton. we are looking at three below zero. but it feels like 28 below zero. that is their frostbite, it becomes a real concern there. no matter where you are, we are seeing those numbers as you mentioned. as george mentioned, you want to cover all your extremities, your face, your hands, arms, legs, everything because it is super cold. especially in portions of new england where you can get frostbite. we are not monitoring very far as we go through a threat of the afternoon. really, we are 10 to 30 degrees below what is normal this time of year.

we are not used to this, we had a really mild winter so far, a really mild january. right now, this afternoon as we wind up the day, we're looking at temperatures 25 in new york city. that is well below normal for this time of year. bangor maine, in a single digits, that is about 25 degrees below what is typical for this time of year. but look at this, this is tomorrow, notice the yellows in orders on the map. that is indicating a quick rebound. we are going to switch those winds around, we're gonna bring in that southerly air. 50 degrees in philadelphia by tomorrow. i know, we need to get through today, this is tomorrow. 50 degrees in boston. they were ten velour today. we had a windchill, 36 below zero. that broke a record two in boston this morning. and then even warmer as we go throughout the work week. looks like spring in some spots, in the 50s, monday new york city, the warmer area on wednesday. philadelphia, we're looking at 50, 53 on tuesday. that is good news. winds are still gusting, although they are relaxing on untuckit around 37 miles per hour. bundle up as you head of this

afternoon. shed some of those layers tomorrow. >> i gotta tell you, i took my dog walk this morning, but i didn't let him p, i just have mine pulling him along to get back. >> i polled little puppy is like, let's go. unlike, not yet, not yet. >> we are waiting eight. michelle, thank you for being on this, we appreciate it. thank you for the house shut up, i appreciate, which he was well my friend. >> -- >> we are still falling is breaking news that we want to get back to. the fda has just issued this ground stop of three airports in south carolina which we've been following. the defense department saying that it is calling a national security effort. it is come in the wake of dozens of sightings in the area of what is to believe that chinese by balloon which you see right there on your screens. we are also learning that the associated press is reporting that the pentagon is working on a plan to bring down that balloon. just a short time ago, the president is saying that we are taking care of this. the president has given a thumbs up when asked if the balloon is going to be shot down.

we want to bring back in, if i can, retired general steph twitty who has been on this for us. general, as always we appreciate you sticking with us through this. how surprising is this to you that we are in this position right now, kind of contemplating whether or not they're going to take this thing down. how likely do you think it is gonna be happening within the next couple hours? what circumstances need to add up for them to bring it down? >> so, obviously this is pretty provocative by the chinese. when you take a look at this, our sovereignty has been violated here. this is pretty significant. in terms of taking the balloon down, i would suspect once the pentagon has determined that we have gotten this balloon out in the atlantic away from land and away from work and harmony folks if we bring it down, then they will be prepared to shoot the thing down. i suspect that will be here in

the next hour, two hours to three hours or so. once we get over the atlantic, you can expect that there is going to be action taken. it will probably be by fighter jets that take the balloon down. hopefully we will be able to gather the information, the equipment to be able to exploit it ourselves. >> there was just an intelligence briefing given on capitol hill about chinese, china chinese surveillance technology and what they have been doing to surveil the united states. then, as we spoke earlier, talked about how this is probably one of the milder ways in which they surveil the u.s.. how worried should we be about their capabilities? >> having served in the military and fully understand their capability, they have hundreds of satellites up in our orbit, both in high orbit and low over it. they are stealing the u.s..

they have a good picture and understanding of the u.s., particularly its airports, rail ports, supports, the sensitive sites. we have a good understanding. they continue to gather information daily on that. we have to understand that in the past, the u.s. has been a sanctuary in terms of where we fight. normally, the u.s. forces will deploy from the u.s. homeland and they will either go fight in iraq, you name the location, fight in vietnam, passing korea in the past. the u.s. pretty much have been a sanctuary. now, we have to worry about anomie coming into the u.s., whether be cyber, or whether be a new color packed. so we have to figure out how we can safeguard from these things

happening within the u.s. here in the future. >> you can't help but think about, and we talk about this a little earlier, the diplomatic dance that needs to happen. this is a relationship that must continue. it is integral to the global community, considering all that is going on, especially when it comes to moscow and china's relationship with moscow. and the worry as to what beijing will do when it comes to taiwan. this is not a relationship that the u.s. can fray, can lose. >> absolutely. the two of the world's largest economies, the two of the world's largest military's. if you can imagine if something were to happen in these two countries, if they go to war it would not only cripple the two countries, but it would have a

significant impact on the world given that they are the two largest economies. we have to continue the dialogue and continue the lines of communications with china and china with us. >> general, as always we appreciate you. i know you're gonna be sticking with us throughout the next two hours. thank you for that. i do want to shift if we can to washington and capitol hill where joy is standing by for us and following the reaction on capitol hill as we await any kind of response from the biden administration when it comes to the spy balloon. julie, what are you hearing? >> he has been, lawmakers may return to washington, they are going to expect some sort of briefing from the administration. this ranges all the way from the gang of eight, the top eight lawmakers in both the house and the senate, including the foreheads of the intelligence committee. expecting that closed, classified briefing from the administration as soon as monday night when we come back here. but, also the expense to other senators. we have heard from the democrat

from montana who actually chairs a defense subcommittee, he is calling for a briefing there. just about the national security risk that this blues could potentially pose, i'll take a listen to what he said and what the republican from montana sandra steve daines had to say as well. >> this is a very bad situation, quite frankly. in the end, we need to find out what is happened, why it happened, and make sure that this never happens again. >> this demonstrates weakness of america, we could have been much stronger to protect people. it is embarrassing for us out there in montana, the response of this white house. >> yasmin, republicans and democrats quite frankly have already been concerned about the threats the china could pose with their surveillance capabilities. there is already a full briefing held, to be held for all senators on february 15th unrelated to this balloon. you can see that there's a lot of eyes on china here, especially as you mentioned as it relates to russia and ukraine. taiwan specifically here, actually asked the senator

before we found out about the split on thursday if the u.s. is prepared for chinese aggression and he said, we are not. this is something that all lawmakers have their eyes on. it is certainly gonna be a focus and a backdrop for president biden as he delivers his state of the union address here on tuesday. >> julie, talk about the reaction we are hearing from the hearings. the national security risk that this plan poses to the united states, the possibility that these will happening sooner than later. >> 100%. look, staff for the gang of eight were briefed on thursday late afternoon as seen as the reports remained public. including from our own courtney who broke this. they have been holding hearings, particularly with the intelligence community on what kind of nationalist this could pose. the spoon is certainly so blatant to where civilians passengers on planes, people on the ground are seeing this. senator steve daines actually said that he heard from montanans on wednesday night

who are prepared to shoot this thing down themselves. of course, they probably wouldn't reach it, but this just shows you that lawmakers are hearing about this. it makes its way across the u.s.. this is a concern and it is also seen as a potential aggression from china. kevin mccarthy actually said that president biden could defend our borders, he can defend our skies. you could see how republicans are going to spin this. but of course, all of them calling for urgent answers, including why the u.s. did not take action when it was flying over montana and open air fields there. this is definitely something that is developing and something that we are closely watching here. >> julie for us, thank you. i would shift back if we can to defend loose, our msnbc national security reporter who has been standing by for us and following this for us as well. if you can, then, bring us up to date, the bottom of the hour here on this ground stop. what we are being told about it, why it is happening and what we should be watching for. >> well, it is interesting that

these three airports in north and south carolina, there is a ground stop ordered by the faa. that would suggest a first step, a precautionary step if the u.s. military chose to shoot down the balloon over the atlantic ocean, near the coast. this would be a precautionary step to make sure that there is no risk to civilians and commercial aircraft. keep in mind that the balloon, as we know, as we've been told, is that a very high altitude. much higher than our civilian aircraft flies. it is about 60,000 feet. it is important to keep the same perspective, but it does seem to combine with what president biden said earlier, we are going to take care of it. it does seem like they are headed towards a moment where they're going to shoot down. again, the u.s. administration didn't feel like this was an emergency that was worth

risking civilian life on the ground. it is very large and there would be debris over quite a wide area. even in a rural area, it would pose some kind of a threat. that is how the biden administration presented this. i think there is a larger issue which is, china has been accused of spying and conducting industrial espionage and trying to steal intellectual property and taking very risky actions in the south china sea very near u.s. aircraft. the u.s. naval vessels on international waters and international airspace. this is happen over a period of years. really, what you hear from the pentagon and from former military intelligence officers is that their big concern isn't an intentional war with china, it is an unintentional, accidental conflict. when someone makes a mistake or pushes the envelope too far and does something provocative. this is seen by the white house as part of a pattern of

provocative actions by china. that is why you've seen such sharp language coming from the administration, from the secretary of state anthony blinken who canceled his trip saying, this was irresponsible. this was a violation of u.s. sovereignty, it is not acceptable. that is how they are framing this. >> it is a conversation that we've had about moscow and vladimir putin. it's also a conversation we have consistently had over the years about china and beijing as well, especially when it comes to their aggression or their plans, when it comes to taiwan. hey dan, is there a base nearby, nearby this area that we feel as if these fighter jets, because the general told us it will likely be fighter jets to take this thing down, these fighter jets would originate from? >> yes, there's a base in south carolina. there are plenty of options all over the eastern seaboard. there is no problem there. no obstacle to overcome. the one theory here is that a

fighter jet, fighter jets would fire missiles at the balloon. but again, i think they're going after think about, can we take it down in a way where we don't destroy what is on board and the u.s. can then look at and examine the sensors, or whatever, -- the one thing a balloon can do that a satellite can't do as well is it could pick up on radio signals, basically ease drop in a certain area. i think that could be something they're looking at if they're able to examine and explore the equipment that is on there. >> one more thing, again. before we go to break, that is this idea that as of yesterday, it seemed as if the president, the biden administration was not interested in taking this thing down. because of the risk to life overland, especially in areas like montana, or more populous areas then montana. did you feel as if, are you getting the sense from your reporting that the intention

was to eventually take it down or is this transpiring because of the location of it now? >> i think from the beginning, they were telling reporters that this was an option they considered from the very start. they had ruled it out because of the risk to civilians on the ground. therefore, the next logical step is, that concern is then removed once it is over the ocean. so, that is really how the conversation has gone. there many indications that this is a possibility. >> dan de luz, sticking with us as well. we are going to continue to follow the store story everybody. this f a ground stop issued to three airports in north and south carolina due to the evidence of the spy balloon. we will be right back. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and the pain in your eyes burns like a red-hot chili pepper,

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general steph twitty. and then i know this thing has been kind of you, know progressing as we have been speaking. we are learning more and more about it by the minute, what more are we learning at this moment? especially when it comes to timing, the president saying okay we will take care of it. given a thumbs up or imagining and thinking this is likely going to be taken down. this balloon at this point. why do we think that it will happen? >> good question. as things that when it floods over the atlantic ocean which could be later today, it is kind of odd and almost surreal because this is moving as a balloon does rather slowly. and usually, we are used to things happening in seconds and minutes and decisions and actions are taking quite quickly but of course, this moves with the wind and the pentagon and the white house has had time to discuss and consider and plan for this contingency and, so they have

had time to halt civilian aircraft in that area around north and south carolina. as we spoke earlier, there are air force's, air force bases in the area. there is a major u.s. air base in south carolina. there are bases and north carolina, there is no shortage of resources and it's just a matter of executing it properly and safely. i imagine there is word out also to commercial ships at sea for you know and case debris does rain down if they do choose to shoot this down. >> general, talk to me about how you take an instrument like this down? a balloon like this down and maintain the integrity of it for u.s. intelligence? >> that's a great question. >> go ahead general. >> that's a great question, obviously we don't normally train to this you know in our military. not the air force and certainly

not our other forces out there weatherbeaten a, v. army or marine corps. so i am quite sure that the air force has gone through many rehearsals to try and hit this thing in such a way that it can come down and not cause a large debris field, number one because again, the object of bringing this thing down is to try and bring it down so we don't endure any u.s. civilians out there. they also will be able to bring it down in a way that we can exploit it and figure out what type of equipment and technology that is on this balloon. >> what could be general from something that you can collect after shooting this, down from the debris? >> what i think what they will be looking for is signal, intelligence because i suspect that is what the chinese are going after. >> general, i want to jump in here for a moment if we can

because we are now getting reports from the associated press that in fact the balloon has been shot down. i don't know if you are hearing that from your end as well, i know we are looking at kind of the stock photos of this balloon at this point. are you hearing anything on your end? >> not at the moment. i will check right now as soon as we finish here. that would be what sort of we all were bracing and expecting and anticipating. >> general, when we talk about what could be gleaned from what they collect, from this debris, speak more about that. i am wondering as we reported that the united states also uses the spy balloons as well, are these things stop? and i asked that to say that if you are in the air force and you are going to shoot this thing down, do you kind of understand the construction, the makeup that you already know the makeup of these balloons and what to aim for?

>> that's a very good question and i will tell, you i use these extensively in both iraq and afghanistan when i commanded forces there. we use that to protect our parameters. we used it to surveillance on the taliban and the enemy forces in iraq. and so there are pretty rudimentary when you break them apart. you have a camera on there and you do have the ability to pick up signals intelligence. i would suspect that based on the u.s. using these pretty routinely in both iraq and afghanistan, that the air force has some understanding of what the capabilities inside maybe. and that they would take this to try and protect that technology. and oh by the way, as soon as this thing comes down, i suspect that the u.s. navy has a perimeter around the location

to be able to quickly pick up that technology. >> if you want general standby for me, i want to bring in mark probably operatives as well, a former cia agent along with msnbc intelligence analyst. mark, thank you for talking to us about this. give me first, your reaction to the report now that we are getting from the associated press that in fact the chinese bivalent has been shot down and your expectations as to what we can glean from that debris? >> sure yasmin, i think this entire affair is a very good reminder that espionage remains the world's second oldest profession. you know this is very a good old-fashioned spy scandal, the chinese got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. i think at this point, now it turns into a recovery operation where the intelligence community will be very interested and what we can glean from that balloon and also the technical components there. one thing i think that has not been discussed enough's as we saw this balloon traversed across the united states, there was kind of this apoplectic

hysteria on twitter, whether we should shoot this down or not. the intelligence community, u.s. military was collecting on the balloon as it was making its way through the jet stream. so in the, and while it is good that i think that balloon was down, we also have the opportunity and during this to really collect on it. we will see what we get from the debris field and the next kind of hours and days. >> with their history, mark were you at all surprised about the sighting of this balloon? >> well look, an intelligence service sometimes make mistakes. you know there will obviously have to be a lot of analytic work on this. was this balloon launched longer prior to secretary blinken's planned trip? it seems certainly to be a provocative chinese action -- >> the timing does seem suspect. >> it does, sometimes things are launched far in advance that you know, the intelligence world nobody likes this because everything then kind of goes into foreign policy. of course in the united states now, in politics.

i think both, sides both the u.s. and china will want to put this behind us. one other point, to ultimately a lot of talk and u.s. politics that this was somehow that biden administration being soft on china. i would tend to disagree because ultimately, what a spy scandal like this does is secretary blinken will go to beijing whenever he goes, with added leverage. this is deeply embarrassing to the chinese government. >> and i think for what reason though? and barreling because they were caught? >> yes. not that they were caught, not they had an essence kind of a rudimentary platform. it's not a sophisticated i.s., our intelligence surveillance and platform. and ultimately as we go -- >> i think they're gonna be embarrassed worldwide. amazingly enough, the world was watching us live. it was rather extraordinary. so in the end, a spy scandal, we will get past this. but i think the u.s. ends up ahead as we go into delegate

negotiations with china, which is our greatest adversary. >> where do you launch something like this from if you are trying to? >> like the general just said, i actually ran a paramilitary base in afghanistan, i had one of those surveillance platforms. but this is something kind of beyond my pay grade in the sense of, a platform that can be operated at 100,000 feet. i'm not sure exactly where it would be launched from. >> general, i just want to know guys as we've been speaking, nbc's not confirming in fact that this chinese bible and has been shot down. we are going to try to hone in on the exact location of where the debris is. the fact that it's over land or water, as we get that information we are going to bring it to you. a general, could you weigh in on that? you have any information as to where something like this would be launched from? >> absolutely not. this here is such a large balloon and we are dealing with

balloons in afghanistan and iraq of a bust size. this is three buses here. you know, suspicion would be somewhere out of the south china sea may be. but i just don't know. i would just be speculating. >> mark, if you will expand on meet the type of intelligence that they can gather from this balloon. >> well, in terms of the chinese? >> the chinese. >> it is going to be everything from perhaps signals intelligence collection. i say signals perhaps because we have to speculate at this point. signals intelligence, communications, perhaps they're looking at telemetry data from u.s. military testing. and then imagery, there can be high resolution cameras on board. again, from everything we have heard from the pentagon, what is quite interesting is that shiny satellites actually are far better at this type of surveillance platform. it is curious why the chinese

did this. perhaps they're doing it on the cheap. it is gonna be interesting to the u.s. intelligence community and the military to get a hold of these components to see what exactly was on the system. >> whatever the chinese have gathered from this balloon, would that have already been transmitted back to beijing? >> i think that is the concern. there is a realtime freed. perhaps that is true. at the same time, a lot of these platforms recorded as well. it could be a combination of both. one of the last point, we are gonna hear from the u.s. military at some point. i was wondering as the balloon was traversing across the united states, if china actually had a self destruct mechanism as well. i wonder if we shot down or actually they disabled the balloon. we will see in short order. >> there is a way, possibly, that they could disable the balloon. is there a way they could erase anything vague have gathered so we cannot glean any information from the debris?

>> presumably. that is what is built into some of the systems. you don't know how much china has done this on the cheap or is it more of a sophisticated platform. >> general, what are you expecting, what kind of response are expecting from china? >> one of the things that i think we have not talked about is, if china really, truly put up a weather balloon, then we probably will ask china to land that balloon somewhere in the u.s. so we can inspect it. given that it did not land and it continued to hover over the united states out into the atlantic, that right there should prove to us that this was in fact an intelligence balloon versus a weather balloon. i suspect what will happen is the united states navy is probably out there, they're probably gathering the balloon up now. you can bet that you have all types of intelligence personnel

on those ships ready to start immediately exploration of the debris. >> i want to review our direct reporting so we understand. it seems as if it is confirmed that it happened over, outside of the carolina coast over the -- getting some reporting from our nbc news desk saying the u.s. has downed the balloon off the carolina coast and will tempt to collect its debris. that's according to a new u.s. official. how worried should we be about chinese intelligence gathering considering what they were doing out in the open? >> well, jasmine, that is the question here. i think for a lot of our national security professionals, we saw this incident with the balloon, not just what the platform is doing, but the overall context of chinese espionage against united states. i think what is quite interesting's quest christopher wray, the fbi director has said repeatedly that the fbi opens a

counter intelligence investigation against china every couple of hours. china is our greatest long-term adversary when it comes to the intelligence game. china is stealing our secrets, they're trying to recruit u.s. officials. they are in our defense industries. this balloon is just representative of the overall scope of chinese espionage activities. that is where we have to focus. people are very upset on social media about this. there's a lot of fear. but i wish they would be just as upset about what christopher wray talks about. again, the chinese human activity against the united states. it's our greatest threat long term. >> what do you make, mark, of the timing of this. you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but the national security implications and what is going on overseas, the role that china is currently playing when it comes to negotiations, talks, relationships with moscow and their war against ukraine. the predictions that beijing will likely be invading taiwan

or acting aggressively towards taiwan within the coming years. the relationship between the u.s. and china, what do you make of the timing of this happening now. >> again, i think we have to go back to see if this was a deliberate provocative step or chinese intelligence operations that were just a very inconveniently exposed at time were senator blinken was going for a very important meeting. in beijing, we have to remember that their relationship with china is incredibly nuanced. it is a giant trading partner, we also, as you have seen with the cia director, we expect them to be ready within the next four years, to be prepared to invade tehran, our critical u.s. ally. i think another really interesting point that you made jasmine was that, we are actually working with him when it comes to ukraine. the biggest escalatory fears that we have, which is vladimir putin detonating a tactical

nuclear weapon. if he becomes so desperate, while the chinese have been very clear with the russians not to do this. we are working with the chinese, even on ukraine as well. it is a very nuanced relationship. i think they will try to get that summit back on track, the secretary of state visit to beijing. i go back to what i said several minutes ago when i said the u.s. has a bit more leverage on beijing right now due to what happened over the last several days. >> it's something that i said earlier, this really is going to be this diplomatic dance considering all that is invested in the u.s., china relationship. and all that is relying on that relationship as well. what are you most worried about looking ahead here, general? >> yes, something that we have not talked about much is, it is about 100 miles from china to taiwan if china wanted to attack taiwan. it is about 8000 miles from the

u.s. to taiwan. who is going to get their first? it is going to be china. china is doing a lot of surveillance and deployment to the u.s.. looking at our ports, they're looking at our airfields, they're looking at our military installations. so they want to know where american forces will deploy from and disrupt them early on instead of waiting for them to get on ships, airplanes, to get over to taiwan to impact that fight. part of the surveillance effort that taiwan is doing is those things that i just talked about. ships, critical infrastructure, those types of things to disrupt that fight, that we continue to talk about with taiwan and china. >> mark, let me ask you this, as we kind of wrap up this hour, continue to follow this breaking news of this chinese by blue now shot down over the atlantic ocean off the carolina coast. where do you rank chinese

intelligence gathering right in relation to our technology here in the united states, israel, the british, where do they rank? foreign away, our number one adversary and they have certainly in their sights. there is no doubt in my mind that china is absolutely the greatest threat to the united states when it comes to the intelligence game. again, no surprise that they are trying to as the general just said trying to conduct an aerial surveillance. one thing though yasmin to just, i want to throw one more thing into the conversation because seven days, ago i think we're losing -- several days ago the u.s. announced a renewed basic agreements. of the military presence in the philippines. that's in direct correlation to the defense in taiwan and -- with china. we are doing a lot. i think a lot of people are concerned about balloons, around the world, the united states is really taking

measures, a natural defense strategy that was ju