battlefield, but breakthrough. >> thank you for joining us this morning, that was appreciated, michael mcfaul is always the former u.s. russian ambassador, he is the author of from cold war to hot piece. and on january 30th, he published a piece of foreign affairs magazine, which gives this run forward and ukraine. up ahead, the latest on the downed chinese spy balloon. another hour of velshi, begins, right now. >> good, morning a geopolitical turning point the wrong direction. yesterday, at 2:39 eastern standard time, united states military f-22 aircraft flying 58,000 feet used a single air to air missile to shoot down,

with the united states says with a chinese surveillance balloon, roughly six nautical miles off the coast of south carolina. well within u.s. territorial airspace. the balloon crashed into the atlantic ocean, creating a debris field at least seven mile spread out in relatively short shallow water. the recovery of that debris is ongoing, including navy divers, the coast guard, and other manned and unmanned salvage feedback vessels. the fbi counter intelligence agents are also on board the recovery vessels, officials say there are plenty to learn from that debris, but added that they have also been studying that balloon since it first entered u.s. airspace in the illusion islands of alaska, on january 28th. the balloon, which had maneuverability capabilities via small motors and multiple propellers entered canadian airspace on january 3rd, for troubled self crop crossing into the united states. president biden says he gave the order to shoot the balloon down on, wednesday but on the advice of his team, they decided against it while the balloon was above land.

saving the risk of harming people and infrastructure on the ground. the order took effect once the balloon was over water. and, of course, u.s. officials were spying on the spy balloon the entire time. the pentagon adds that the balloon had limited value in collecting intelligence and wouldn't provide anything the chinese surveillance can't already obtain, for both the u.s. and china are known to have several satellites revealing each other conducting surveillance via balloon, not new, it is a relatively unsophisticated outdated way of conducting espionage with manse surveillance balloons, having been used as early as the american civil war. this was before coming into passion in world war i. look at the names, by the way, of the plains used in the mission to down the balloon. frank 01 and franco two, named after frank luke junior, world war i, hero who was known for destroying more than a dozen german observation looked balloons. it is poetic. china, by the way, has admitted that the balloon is there's. but they say it was, quote, a civilian airship used for a

meteorological purposes. a weather balloon, in other words. which, deviated far from its plan course because of strong winds, which is a bit hard to believe given that montana, where the balloon was actually hovering for about a day is more than 6000 miles away from mainland china. it is also home to one of america's three nuclear missile silo fields, which operates and maintains intercontinental ballistic missiles. indeed, a senior official in a bomb, was monitoring several -- sites, including a collection pod and special solar panels. more damning, the u.s. has confirmed that another chinese surveillance balloon is right now traveling across central and south america and that both of these balloons are part of a chinese infrastructure surveillance fleet of balloons. this has been spotted over the past several years in multiple countries across five continents. this latest incident is much more than just a spy balloon, it is a metaphor for u.s. china relations, which are far of course, and are now set to

further drift. i at this very moment, the u.s. secretary of state, anthony blinken, was supposed to be in beijing for meetings with his chinese counterpart and also potentially with the chinese leader, xi jinping himself, but the big balloon grounded blinken's big beijing trip, which would've been the first time a biden cabinet secretary has visited china, and the first secretary of state to visit since mike pompeo went in 2018. this was meant to potentially be the start of resettling relations, or at least a chance to calm things down following the tumultuous times in the trump area, during which trump and issued a trade war with chain -- beijing, and threatening nuclear annihilation of but -- publicly fawning over the north korean dictator strength, and how the two of them fell in love because they wrote, quote, love letters to each other, to use trump's own words. it also comes amidst china's continued encroachment at provocations, and ambitions in the south china sea, and as it relates to taiwan, which china

believes is not an independent country, but a province of china. and, as the u.s. reached a new agreement with the philippines to expand americas access to military bases in the philippines which is meant to counter china's growing regional influence. blinken's beijing trip could have been a turning point in this important and fraught relationship. instead, it appears we are heading for in the wrong direction. joining me now, live, from beijing is my longtime colleague, friend and fellow canadian, nbc news gideon correspondent -- thank you for joining me again. this incident has come at a difficult time for u.s. china's relations. what is the latest on the reaction from china? >> ali, the reaction from here has been a mix of official outrage, of nationalistic fervor, and a bit of a social media mocking. overall, the view from china is that the u.s. overreacted with this and there are threats of

repercussions. let me walk you through the statements that came first from government officials and then the defensive ministry, but they are basically the same. china's foreign ministry expressing, quote, strongest mattis faction and protests over the u.s. shooting down the balloon, and they repeated that this was a civilian airship looking at the weather. they blamed for force majeure as we know. they also expected that they wanted the u.s. to be calm, professional, and restraint, and that using force was an overreaction, and, quote, a serious violation of international customary practice. note, they did not say a violent of international law. interestingly, the statement says that the chinese side will safeguard the rights and interests of the enterprises concern, while reserving the right to further necessary responses. a lot of people here are talking about the possibility that maybe china will sue the u.s. for compensation for the balloon. the defense ministry statement is basically saying the same, and repeat this declaration

that they reserve the right to act. so, what do we make of it? several days in a down balloon into this, we still have no information yet on who the balloon actually belongs to or a vague idea of what it was doing, as it was hovering over the u.s.. and balloons aren't a thing of the past, they are not even entirely anachronistic, as surveillance tools. there was some coverage and state media here a few months ago, that was celebrating and praising the advances being made in chinese blue technology. >> the articles included images of these big balloons, similar to the ones that we saw, one of them was kid it out with a 5g base station, where it leaves you as china relations is is that the bigger question, the visit by the secretary of state, blinken, he is supposed to be here right now, and it was seen as the best chance at improving relations between u.s. and china, because there are so many thorny issues there is

stray, technology, security, taiwan, and especially with chinese president, xi jinping, expect the traveled to russia next month for a state visit with vladimir putin. that relationship getting closer and the relationship between the u.s. and china is feeling very far apart. what isn't happen needing to be clear, ali, is the appetite on the chinese side for escalating a situation that they themselves called accidental. this has been an embarrassment for the chinese leadership, at a time when they are trying to revive relations with the u.s. and, of course, revive the economy here. so, the coming days will be very telling. natalie? >> as always, thank you my friend, we are in beijing. joining us now is john brennan, the former director of the formal central -- he is the author of the best selling, undaunted, my fight against americas enemies, at home and abroad. john, good to see you, thank

you for being with us, i want to pick up where janice left off. this was probably not an accident, you can't really generally get a balloon to hover over montana, above 60,000 feet, where you are actually legally able to be there in the accident. it is not a civilian weather balloon probably, but in the end, there is something here that china does not want to risk and that is the ire of america. so what is your evaluation of where we stand right now? >> well, ali, i think as was mentioned, there is still a lot that we don't know there was a lot that we we >> should presume to know what we don't know so far. so i think what were the chinese thinking when they set this balloon over the united states including was intent to true traverse u.s. airspace? but who was responsible for launching this, and was it fully coordinated at the highest levels of the chinese government. but, also, we are still waiting to find out what were the tactical capabilities of this balloon, and that is why the retrieval effort is underway to

try and see what type of technical equipment had in terms of technical collection capabilities, as far as signals intelligence, imagery. and so i think we are learning a lot more, but it is clear that the chinese rhetoric, in terms of its push back against the shoot back, was very typical unexpected. and now the big question is how we are going to deal with the situation going forward, because i don't think that the united states certainly doesn't want to have the situation escalate, there are a lot of issues that i think we need to issue and deal with china on, and i don't believe that the chinese leadership, xi jinping, wants us to escalate either. unless this wasn't intentional provocation, but, again, it is very important that secretary blinken's trip had to be postponed, i think it was a prudent step to take, but now we need to figure out, exactly what are the chinese thinking? what was his was that was on the balloon? and our engagement with chinese i think is going to be critically important in the coming days. i know the united states right now is working with our allies and partners around the globe, to show our support, and

because that is certainly within our rights to shoot this down in our airspace, and it was a violation of our sovereignty in terms of what this balloon did. so, again, we will find out more in the coming days, weeks, as far as the impact that this is going to have on the u.s. china relationship going forward. >> and, obviously because it was a provocative move, america had to do something, in the cancellation of the trip was at least the initial part of the something. but, in your analysis, given your expertise at the cia, how big of a deal is this. we know that the country severely xia they're, we know that balloons can achieve something satellites can't, because the satellite can't hover and it has to go around and you have windows of time. that balloon could actually sit over montana until it got the photos or data that it needed. how big of a deal do you think this is? >> well, i guess, it is unclear, as you point out, there are things that a balloon can do. given that the altitude was only 60,000 feet. that is approximate to earth, and it can do some things that

satellites that are orbiting in space from a greater distance, but this clearly was provocative. there is no way that this balloon was not going to be a textbook by the united states. china had to know that. they knew that it possibly was going to take some action to bring it down, are they going to risk it? maybe some advanced technology that they had on that balloon, if we ever are to retrieve it and understand what the capabilities are, but, again, there are a lot of questions, and from my experience being at cia in the national security council meetings, i know that the military, and community right now are trying to determine exactly what was the motivation, the purpose, the capabilities, and with that, they are going to inform president biden and president biden i think will then deal with china in an appropriate fashion, once we have more understanding about what was the whole purpose of this episode. there are three imperatives as it relates to china, more than three, but three major ones right now.

janice mentioned, xi jinping on his way to russia. china has, tacitly, supported russia and the way in this war. watching very carefully how the russian invasion of ukraine could work out for them if they were to invade taiwan. and then there is the issue of north korea. america cannot actively choose to not be engaged in china. what does, i guess, blinken's visit was going to be what engagement looks like right now. let's just talk the thing through. >> yes, as you point around ukraine, taiwan, north korea. we have cyber, we have trade, we have a lot about the issues we have to deal with with china. i know that the administration was looking forward to the opportunity to try to engage with the opportunity to engage with the chinese in a constructive way. to try to avoid any escalation of tension in these areas. whether or not this was the effort if some in china to try to derail that meeting is, again, an unknown. what we have to try to find out is, how can we ensure that this episode is not going to cause greater friction in their

relationship? the u.s. china relationship is an important one. there are areas of space drawn competition. hopefully that will not be conned flicked and -- there are places that can escalate. it requires engagement and constructive diplomacy and dialogue with china. unfortunately, this balloon issue is disrupting that right now. >> good to see you, john brennan, thank you for joining us. former director of the cia. msnbc senior national analyst. he is the author of undaunted, my fight against americas enemies at home and abroad. still ahead on velshi bell hooks, alice walker, ta-nehisi coates, kimberly crenshaw. these are market people share two things in common. some of the greatest writers and thinkers of our time, they have all been removed or diminish from the new ap african american studies curriculum. i will speak to kimberly crenshaw who torn the term intersectionality he did critical work on the development of critical race

theory on the damaging changes these. -- the what would you do if you had a call that could literally change the future of this nation? judge michael rooney answered the call to defend democracy. don't miss his remarkable story and don't miss how he feels today three years later. and the 2024 primary will look different this year. how democrats just signed off on a plan to kick iowa new hampshire off the top spot. you are watching velshi.

the democratic national committee has officially dethroned iowa and new hampshire at leading spa in the 2024 primary calendar. typically, as you know, those two states hold two contests of each presidential cycle. next year it will be presidential -- south carolina that kickstarts the primaries for the democrats. the dnc held about yesterday. it is one of the biggest primary shakeups in years. -- >> those in favor of approving

the report, say i. >> in a historic vote, changing the way democrats make their presidential nominee, sending south carolina into the spotlight as the party's new first in the nation primary. >> thanks to all of you for this great decision that you made today. >> you may remember, it was clyburn's 2020 endorsement that revived biden's 2020 campaign. for the past 50 years, democrats started with the caucus in iowa, and then a primary in new hampshire. after the 2020 iowa caucus meltdown lead to major delays in results, party leaders begin debating if now was the time for change. states with predominantly white voters just simply did not reflect the diverse democratic base. now, the party's new presidential primary calendar, slated to start next february, in south carolina. followed by new hampshire, nevada days later. george week after that and michigan that months and. >> just an acknowledgment that your voice, your experience,

matters. >> with dissatisfaction coming from new hampshire and iowa. new hampshire state law requires the primary beheld that week before all the other states. a tradition they are not giving up without a fight. >> we've been going for since 1920. no one gave us the right to vote. i don't think anyone can take it away. >> nbc's marissa rip our reporting. despite, developed senator hassan regarding that the new hampshire should go first. rather the dnc's primary proposal assets to violate our state law and puts democrats future success in our state at risk. it is deeply misguided. the story certainly isn't over. we will be keeping an eye on it and move towards 2024. still ahead on, our next guest help preserve democracy after the 2020 election. i mean that quite literally. you won't want to miss the shocking story and how the judge feels about threats to democracy today, three years later. prevent what's going on outside...

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opportunity to attend a conference hosted by the national constitution center. the focus of that conference with the 2020 election, and threats to election security going forward. during that conference, line keynote speaker, a republican judge, told a story that just on me. it was a story that i thought needed to be heard by whomever would listen. it is the story of judge, michael lunyk, the highly official former federal appeals judge who all but saved our democracy in january, 2021 with just a few important and well-placed tweets. we've been lucky enough to have him on the show over the past few months but the story of the democracy saving tweets goes like this. judge luttig about a year into his retirement was eating dinner at home with his wife in -- the phone rang. on the other and was robert colleton visor to mike pompeo and longtime friend of the judge. colin explain that the vice

president was being pressured to block the certification of the electoral votes and overturn the 2020 election in trump's favor, at the suggestion of trump's advisor, john eastman and a misguided interpretation of the electoral county act that he was peddling. he was shocked at the investigation and that the vice president has absolutely no authority to do that. early the next morning pence's advisor were seeking not just ludicrous guidance but it's help in the form of a public statement. quickly in only after his son sent him instructions on how to create a tweet thread put out a series of seven tweets saying in no uncertain terms that the vice president only appropriate path forward was to certify the vote. he tweeted, in part, the only power of the vice president under the vice president's to faithfully count the electoral college votes as they have been cast. that, apparently, was all mike pence needed to see in order to do the right unlawful thing. days later, president --

put out a statement saying why he was certifying the president for the rightful winner, joseph r. biden. in the statement, pence cited judge luttig and his legal advice. judge luttig consistently provided sounded scholarly insight to the public through interviews and his writings, and also to top legal minds who are working on ways to protect democracy right now. last june, judge luttig publicly testified to the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. trump and his supporters posed a clear and present danger to american democracy. judge luttig also went on to assist a bipartisan effort to reform the electoral count act, to perform -- as it was almost used in 2020. he has been outspoken in denouncing a fringe concept calling the independent state legislator theory that worked its way through the supreme court via a case called moore versus harper. i would be remiss if i didn't

underscore judge luttig's background. one of the more respected legal minds in the country. a conservative, through and through. a recent profile of judge luttig written in the washington post highlighted his conservative opinion. the fourth court of appeals in richmond had marked luttig as one of the leading conservative intellectuals in the legal system. a most conservative judge on the most conservative court in america. some might look at judge luttig and say he has fallen out of line with conservative values. maybe he has shifted left. that is not what his actions reflect. judge luttig wynne standing for his long how conservative values by standing up to donald trump and by working its laws that exploited constitution in risk weakening our democracy. i've been very happy to learn more about judge luttig over the past few months, not only because of his expertise, experience, in a deep knowledge of the law in constitutional matters but because i truly think it's story and a position

as a leading conservative mind standing up for democracy is vitally right now and needs to be heard. in that same washington post report says, quote, the former president's political future with del triple blows, luttig says, by his ruling that -- the referral by the january six committee and the failure of his favorite candidates in the 2022 midterm elections. he calls it, quote, the beginning of the end of donald trump, and quote. joining me now is the judge, michael luttig. good to see you, judge. thank you for joining us this morning. >> good morning, ali. it's a pleasure to be with. you >> i was quite shocked when i looked at the washington post the other day and saw this great story of you. we, of course, have loved you here on velshi for a while, for your opinions. you are becoming, dare i say, mainstream in pop culture now. >> i hope that that is not the case. that has never been my goal in life, and ali. >> let's talk about the reasons

why people are covering what you are saying. >> taking your legal experience, your constitutional understanding, and are trying to actually mainstream this. trying to say there are some flaws, some things going on in our legal system that can be fixed. there is a challenge at the supreme court that he's a little odd. you have this cabal of trump election deniers that are not actually posing a chance to our system. you would like to solidify the systems of folks like this cannot manipulated. >> hallie, the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election and the advance of january six represent a unprecedented assault on american democracy. and the institutions of our democracy. it one is providence will, you might say, that i was brought

in on january 6th to advise the vice president. and as a result of that, you know, it fell to me to explain to the congress into the country, if you will exactly what happened on january six because behind the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election was a very complicated plan to exploit both the constitution and laws of the united states. so, over the past year and a half, in particular, i have been called upon to explain the plan. explain how the country could prevent another january six in

the future. and that is what i have done. all of those efforts have been towards the end of shoring up the bulwark of our democracy. at the moment is faltering, i would say. as we may discuss, the country is beginning to make the changes necessary to prevent another january 6th. i am increasingly encouraged. >> is there a role for the arrest in this conversation? much of what you write is for testimony and constitutional scholars. you hope for legislators at the state and federal level to fix laws that are broken. it is complicated stuff. you emailed me last night to

discuss the complexity of the situation in north carolina. what is your? hope is your hope the people at large go to boot some of these more complicated issues and asked their candidates about it? >> i don't expect, or even assume, that the public at large, ali, i to familiarize themselves with all of these pieces of the effort to overturn the election. therefore have the needs to prevent it. i think the public understands what happened at an appropriate level and it expects its elective representatives to shore up the bulwark of our democracy. make the changes that are necessary and make the changes

that are necessary to ensure that there is another another january six. and that a future president never attempts to overturn an election in the way the former president did in 2020. >> judge, it is a pleasure to see you. and i wouldn't early where you are, so thank you for joining us. by the way, judge luttig join me on the board of the national constitution center. it was a first meeting earlier this week when i cornered him and i said, come on the show sunday morning. i didn't give him an option. although he faces yes even when given an option. thank you, sir. judge luttig former federal judge for the u.s. court of appeals for the fort thicket. thank you for being with us. coming up, bell hoax, alice walker, tomas e. coates, kimberly crenshaw. some of the greatest writers and thinkers overtime are being focused on republican who do not want your children being focused on their work. we will take a look at the edited ap african americans to study program with one of the

scholar specifically. removed one of the great pioneers and writers, kimberly crenshaw, who has been absolutely critical in understanding identity, feminism, and more. you are watching velshi. that you want to keep in the family... ...or passing down the family business... ...or giving back to the places that inspire you. no matter your purpose, at pnc private bank, we will work with you every step of the way to help you achieve it. so let us focus on the how. just tell us - what's your why? ♪♪

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roger that. with polident cleanser and polident adhesive refresh and secure for any close encounter. if your mouth could talk it would ask for polident and poligrip. here is a quote from the lay, bell hooks, i wanted to be a place in the world where people can engage in one another's differences in a way that is redemptive, full of hope and

possibility. not this in order to love you, i must make you something else. and quote. sounds like a nice sentiment. not to the college board. bell hooks, along with other crucial black writers and thinkers have been removed or diminish from the ap african american studies curriculum from states like florida. coming, up i'll be joined by kimberly crenshaw, another one of the pioneering scholars whose work has been diminished. first, i want to make sure you are aware first few important programming notes. two weeks from now velshi will be in a new later timeslot. saturday than sunday's 10 am to noon eastern. we will start at 10 am instead of atm. the same weekend, the following week, and i'll be live on the ground in ukraine as we prepare to mark a full year since the russian invasion began. plus, don't forget, if you miss anything from our shows, velshi is always available as a podcast. you can catch up anytime. subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts. of course, economics for me on social media, including some of the newer social media platforms post news and mastermind.

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the governor, ron desantis, of florida's department of education this past wednesday on the very first day of black history month, the college board rolled out its revised curriculum for its advanced placement, a pea african american studies corps. the board made substantial changes that critics say what are the curriculum down. while the organization said it would not bend to political pressure and it's provisions, many of the newly released changes do appear to directly address arguments that were voiced by conservatives. to santa's and other right-wing politicians made baseless accusations that the previous version of the class lacked, quote, educational value, and quote, and push the teaching of critical race theory. meanwhile, the new 240-page curriculum which should be centered around black history is now missing several key components. namely the work of key black scholars and subjects that actually reflects the lived

experience of black americans. the new plan also eliminates black lives matter at a required subject. arguably one of the most significant and pivotal movements in recent history. it does add black conservatism. since releasing the revised curriculum, the college board has received intense backlash. in a new york times op-ed, janai nelson, the president and director counsel of the naacp legal defense fund warn that censoring african american studies may, quote, so the racial divisions which enable white supremacy. quote, the losses to our nation if this broad attack to our shared history is allowed to continue our incalculable. not only will it breathe a generation of americans indoctrinated by ignorance, it will deny them the analytical skills to understand the complex history of this experiment of democracy, as well as the historic grounding to sustain it. thhold that thought about the analytical skills, i want to talk about that in a moment. the far-right's relentless ski fearmongering and othering is nothing new. the danger comes when major

u.s. institutions, like the education system, capitulate to far-right extremist. some of those removed from the black victim remove renowned thinkers like james bach when, bell hooks, ta-nehisi coates, and my next guest, professor kimberly crenshaw. a pioneering scholar in the areas of gender and race -- she is the author of actual critical race theory, not the scarecrow version that right wing republicans and handling to scare parents. we will discuss all that and more right after the break. after the break with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good. ♪♪ inner voice (kombucha brewer): if i just stare at these payroll forms... my business' payroll taxes will calculate themselves. right? uhh...nope. intuit quickbooks helps you manage your payroll taxes, cheers! with 100% accurate tax calculations guaranteed. second date, wish me luck buddy.

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scholar herself, professor kimberlé crenshaw. a renowned writer in both race in gender studies. a professor of law at both columbia and the university of california. the executive director and cofounder of the american policy founder. we should know that professor crenshaw turned the term intersectionality. which is use to describe the way that race, gender, class and the other terms intertwined, which certainly at play in this discussion. professor, it is a great honor to have you here. >> my pleasure. >> we have enjoyed learning from you over the past few years. what is at play here? i think there are few things we need to keep in mind. the college board is not, though the name suggests, a independent body that does this. it is a corporation. it makes most of its money off of these ap courses. >> that is right. >> when it got pushback from florida, it's all the risk of not being able to make more money on this course.

they said, all right. what do you need changed? >> i think that people need to recognize that, first of all, you don't have to focus on desantis. whether his comments two week ago, or last month, are worth the factors that made them change the course. the anti woke legislation which has attacked anti racist education, it has attacked ideas like diversity, structural racism, implicit bias. those laws have been on the books in almost half the states for over a year. some, even talking about two years. if the college board, which, as you pointed out, is a corporate entity wants to sell a product. the laws on the books say this product cannot come into this day if it has the features in it, then, of course, they're going to try to figure out a way to sell the product. that involves slicing, dicing, diminishing, marginalizing the

aspects of the course that the states don't like. so, for the college board to actually say, well, we didn't do this in response to desantis, that is saying a little too little. what about the larger environment that has been sparked by the demands for more education about structural racism? that sparked this counter, anti-wokeness. they cannot say that they are not aware of this. they cannot say, i think, credibly, that it wasn't taken into account. look at what was actually carved out, with surgical precision. either they are awfully lucky that they happened a car about the things that the states didn't like or they are bowing to this kind of pressure. >> these are just key words, not even mentioning you or other authors. black lives. institutional racism. structural racism. systemic racism. here is the thing, the words call -- becomes words that every american no over the past few

years. i have one person who resents this. the you are actually the person, one of the people who knows what critical race theory is. this is actually proof of critical race theory, right? >> absolutely. >> taking things that address inequality in the system and remove them from what people will actually learn, thereby perpetuating the ignorance and perpetuation of systemic racism. >> they have done it through a frame of divisive concepts. when has the liberation of black people ever been not divisive? we fought a civil war over at. you can get more divisive than that. falling into this idea of divisive concepts means that all the contemporary aspects of the past, that continue to shape the chances of african americans, cannot be taught if they hurt some feelings. if they make people feel bad. actually suggesting that racism is more than just prejudice. it is fact that race exists as a construct. it is facts that their material realities that connect to this

path and the law has always been part of that. that is what critical race theory brings to the table. the rest of african american studies is about looking at the condition of black lives through various disciplines. whether it is political science, psychology, the law says that many of these conditions are actually created by and facilitated by law. if you look at welty's parodies, that comes from housing discrimination that was facilitated by law. you can't understand urban issues, segregation, well today if you do not know those things. the college board has, basically said that those states that don't want to talk about those things, don't have to talk about those things. it is just what segregation used to be. there was no segregation in public accommodations in transportation in the north. black people could ride where they wanted to. as soon as they pass the mason-dixon line, they had to get up and go to the black section. that knowledge is going to be loud. the states that used to teach

their students about this broader history and reality can do so. as soon as it passes under the mason-dixon, that is when segregated education happens. it collegeport seems, at this point, to be okay with that. >> yesterday i have hannah-jones on. the issue of critical race theory and the 16 19 project also converged into this short short form bumper sticker thing. you are teaching young white kids in school to hate themselves, feel like they cause slavery, things like. that i got the real person who knows what critical race theory is here. why is that nonsense? why is that criticism nonsense? >> it is nonsense for a couple of reasons. first of all critical race theory is not teaching people that they are, individually, responsible. it is actually somewhat doing the opposite. they are saying that these things are the inheritance of structures. structures of the economy.

structures of the housing market. structures of policing. the first thing is if you look around and you see inequality if you don't have an explanation for it, you're going to think that the deficits are the people, rather than the deficits are in the institutions in the history. theas it turns out, actually, young people, white people, in particular want to understand these things. one of the reasons i think there has been such a backlash is because people did not know what to make of all the white kids who are out marching after george floyd putting their bodies in between black people in the police. there was a sense that something is wrong. where can we find what happened to our kids? it must be in the schools. that is a tried and true idea of all authoritarian leaning regimes, which is where we are heading if we don't like what is happening. we want to tell the mythical story of our past and let's go get rid of the books. go get rid of the teachers. go to cover the institutions of

higher learning. that is exactly what's happening right now. >> -- these are public institutions of higher learning. which is what should worry people the mouth. it doesn't apply to public schools. most people getting education in public schools. >> most people do. >> the ap does take the view of what is fact versus ideology. critical race theory, some of the things that you and others talk about have, according to them fallen into the category of ideology. >> yes, it is -- >> it makes it optional. >> that's what is so concerning about the college board. if you are so concerned about these responses they say facts are one thing theories are something else if you look more broadly if the state decides not to teach evolution and teach creationism instead, they can't call in an ap course. if they decide not to teach structural racism and it is up to them. what they have basically done is take aspects of black life and moved it from sacked to the fixing category. it is shocking that so many people will go along with that.

>> people are going along with it including people who say it is better to have half a love to know lafitte all. >> better to ride a segregated train the notre dame. but who wants to go back to that kind of compromise? aren't we 50 years beyond that? how could we see coming to the demands that we erase not just our history and our present but of our future. >> it is quite a thing for us to have you in person in our studio. thank you for doing this. >> it is such a pleasure. >> thank you for the years of good god and, by the way. helping inform our own reporting. kimberly crenshaw, the executive director and cofounder of the imagery to merrick and policy forum. professor of law and both -- public university in the rearview california. at that other for. me velshi is back next weekend. please join me after president biden's state of the union address on tuesday night. for postgame coverage of my good friend, stephanie ruhle, that is tuesday night nine eastern. stay right where you are. the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now.

bringing down the balloon. the united states shoots down that suspected chinese by balloon. we will have the latest on the fallout. biden's big week. the president's first state of the union address before a republican-controlled house and a historic shake and the democrat's presidential primary calendar. congressman james clyburn and congresswoman debbie dingell are here to discuss it all. >> defying expectations the economy is coming along with a strong january jobs report. remaining imperil due to the standoff in raising the debt ceiling. i will talk about it with white house budget director, samantha you long. and, reforming traffic stop. congressman richie torres joins me to discuss a new proposal. i am jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show.