good day from msnbc world headquarters in new york, welcome to alice what reports. i'm -- in for alex. we begin this hour with new fallout on the u.s. military down in a chinese spy balloon. the surveillance device was shot down by an f 22 fighter jet, fly in a 58,000 feet off the course of south carolina.

>> oh, man he kicked it down now. he kicked it down. there's two of them. >> there was a shot at that. >> yeah. >> they got it. they got it. >> did you hear the noise? >> they got it. >> did you hear that noise? >> that was a missile. >> wow. >> the balloon was first seen last week saturday over alaska, by wednesday it was over montana, by friday over missouri, and yesterday, over the carolinas. defense department officials told nbc news that it clearly crossed over sensitive sites, including military locations. a massive recovery operation is ongoing down here from myrtle beach, involving the navy, coast guard, national guard, and the fbi. in just the last hour, a police spokesperson said they are working to secure the area to help the federal government recover hardware that plunged into the ocean with the balloon

deflated. >> we're preparing for if this washes up anywhere on the coastline in the city. so that's the big reason that we want to, we're speaking on behalf of all of our partners. we want to put out everyone, because it may be in georgetown, it may be a lot closer to the north carolina border. if any debris washes, up we need to know but right away so we can secure that in and sure we get the to a federal partners. >> and the meanwhile, the political debate today shifting towards the time it took for the military to act, and the potential damage to national security. >> we have to act swiftly on these things. i think that's one of the things the chinese are trying to message, that is that the u.s. had to see this come in, and decided they couldn't, or wouldn't do anything about it early on. if we were to do, that if we were to fly a balloon over china, they cheated down. >> it sounds simple, i suppose, if you don't think about it for more than a second. the concern, of course, is how do you do it in a way that absolutely minimizes the danger

to american lives on the ground, and anytime of aviation operation. >> we have two reports covering a number of big developments on the spy balloon. first, the breaking news and nbc news investigative reporter, dan delays. dan, we are getting a new confirmation this hour on prior incidents of this kind. what are you learning about that? what can you tell us? >> that's right. as senior government official is telling nbc news that a chinese spy balloon has entered u.s. airspace three times during the previous administration. as, well another time under this administration. it is not unprecedented, and the official says that it's part of a fleet of these by balloons that have traversed five continents across asia and europe as well. it is not an unprecedented event. it raises questions about why the trump administration didn't discuss this publicly, or chose not to shoot it down in those instances. >> as the balloon was drifting

across the united states, to u.s. officials believe that it was continuing to pick up intelligence? >> that's a key question. u.s. officials are saying they don't think so. they were taking what they call countermeasures, which in plain english would be jamming. that would prevent the balloon and the devices on the balloon from scooping up any data or signals intelligence. the other thing is, we need to find out exactly what they retreat from the waters off of the carolina coast. if that, if those devices are intact, it could be a minor intelligence coup, or the u.s. would have some insight not only into this balloon, but all the other buttons that the chinese appear to be flying around the world. >> all right, dan de luz, thank you for starting us off. let's go to julie circuit now with developments from capitol hill with the political side of this. julie, senate majority leader chuck, schumer said that the will be briefed on the incident. what can you tell us? >> that's exactly right. he was holding a press conference in the last hour new york city, where he did say the

game of it will be briefed as early as tuesday. these are the top eight individuals, republicans and democrat, in the house and senate, the leaders of both parties, as well as the intelligence committees. i want you to take a listen first to one of those people, part of the gang of eight, marco rubio, who was on this morning. take a listen to what he had to say. >> it's problematic when democrat or republican have one standard for one president, another for another president. we should remember that this is now known to have happens under the trump administration multiple times. to create another standard for biden, when trump it seems allowed this to go over the united states, is just a bit hypocritical. >> the difference is this, are we aware, have we seen the chinese flight these balloons in the past? we've never seen, it's unprecedented. whoever the source that the department of defense would have to acknowledge what is unprecedented is a balloon flights that entered over idaho, flew over montana, all the sensitive military installations, air force bases,

icbm fields, right across the middle of the country. that is never happened before. >> first, you have heard from senator cory -- who is a bit asked about this as. well look, rubio will receive a briefing as early as tuesday. the rest of the senate will receive a previously scheduled briefing on february 15th. schumer announcing today that this will be an opportunity to have senators to find out where china and the u.s. stands, if they were to go toe to toe on their capabilities in terms of china's recent aggression here. a lot of aggression from lawmakers, new reaction also from leader mcconnell. the minority leader here in the senate, who's disapproving at the action the president biden took sane, he was, quote, took it too late, and he will be examining why this action wasn't taken sooner. >> julie, thank you. let's head over to clint watched an. he is an nbc national security analyst, and a distinguish research fellow at the foreign policy research institute. let's also bring in jen -- and mp our correspondents.

on the intersection of national security and technology, welcome to both of you. clint, you'll start us off. from national security perspective, what concerns you most, and do you think that poland was able to keep collecting intelligence as it moved over sensitive sites across the united states? >> i think the most remarkable part is the chinese, they either lost control, which means they -- which wasn't particularly good, or that they were bold enough to try to pull this stunt by sending a balloon straight over the continental u.s.. but wouldn't bolden them to do that? the u.s. with our airspace, as you can, see people can see this and focus on it even from the ground. this wasn't going to go unnoticed. it really begs the question of what they thought they were going to be able to achieve, and what was that payload. separately, or your separate question, what were they able to collect or gather? it's curious, i'm really fascinated by what the spill it is. i hope the u.s. can recover.

it what would they need to send a balloon for that couldn't be used by other intelligence collection -- potentially, or just with open source information. it must have been some reason that they wanted to fly this balloon. it sounds like it's not an isolated incident. we have reports of one of latin america, reports of this being done in the past. something is going on, i'm not sure that we have all the information just yet. it's a bold move by the chinese. i think it speaks to how the tensions are going to play out between us and china moving forward. this is an escalation that seems to be on a steady track. we seen a lot of conversations from navy circles in recent days about their belief that there will be an impending war, there could be an impending war with china. this really ratchet up both in military, and diplomatic tensions between the two countries right now. >> picking up on something clint just said, jenna, the public, obviously, was able to see it and now of course the media is reporting on its. we know about it. how long do you think it took

u.s. authorities to pick up on this? and takes -- to prevent that transmission of data. what damage could've already been done? >> so, u.s. officials told us that they were aware of this prior to it entering u.s. airspace. given that awareness, we can possibly presume that they would have put in preventative measures to prevent sensitive information from being transmitted. by flying this balloon over the continental united states for a period of time, low enough that it is visible to the naked eye, but high enough that it is really hard to shoot down, it does send a message that china can do something like this. largely, they can get away with that for a fair amount of time. our adversaries have pushed the envelope previously tested the limit of what they can get away with -- for example. it gives china some information about how the u.s. response to this. >> clint, i know you mentioned that there is still a lot more questions, like what kind of intelligence, what kind of data

chinese could be trying to gather, and the fact that there are buttons that have been seen over other parts of the world. where do you think it likely could have been launched from? what kind of data would have been gleaned possibly from a balloon like this, and your expert opinion? >> yeah, i'm not sure where it was launched from. it will be curious to learn more. it seems very clear that there was some sort of plan to launch multiple balloons. i think that's what's remarkable, at least from what we know. this is not an isolated -- there are others out there. it seems to me that there would be some sort of data or information that they'd collect that was maybe alternative sensors, things that they thought they needed to use, a different kind of sensor package for. it's a little confounding, to be honest, the more worried about. it why they thought a balloon 60, 65,000 feet would not be detected. it is not a small objects. i think that really speaks to why they took such caution to actually down the blue and out towards the ocean, in hopes of public safety overall. what that payload is, it's

going to be a question i'm sure everyone is going to be trying to descend on. i do wonder if it's the pentagon, or somewhere else, they have some idea of what that might be. it seems the pentagon has been clear in the public statements that this was not just a weather balloon, that it was for some sort of military application and surveillance. this suggests to me they know something about it, and i think we'll hopefully learn more in the coming weeks. >> let me follow by asking you, do you think that payload could be neutralized? do you think it could still be capable of collecting data, and do you think the u.s. could glean data from it? >> i think all of that is possible. i really don't know, i don't have enough data or information about what that payload was. we're pretty good, you know, the united states -- technology in terms of recovery, i would imagine we'd be able to learn quite a bit about it. we did water for several, days it seems. they watched in terms of signaling, some reports suggest that the chinese still had command and control, could guidance some ways. they knew all of that, what we

should probably consider, it didn't really come up in the conversation with the politicians, is what she net as it is going along its, course you can learn a lot of information from that as well. overall, and outside look at this, it seems like it's smart strategy. you know it's in the, air he knows neutralized, you can observe it was trying to do. then you can shoot it down, and also try to recover it. it presents a lot of options for the u.s. to understand a lot of what was going on with this balloon overtime, and that something that can inform their knowledge about all of these, that they've seen they've been detecting over the last few years. >> let me quickly follow up on that. military experts have said that these have been -- they don't just drift aimlessly into another country's airspace. what can you tell us about this technology? do you believe it was controlled remotely? could china have been controlling it to the ends? i'm no there's been speculation on either side about that question. >> yes, the senior military officials have told us that this balloon is manoeuvrable. it can be piloted remotely. it can potentially adjust to

gather information. now, the information that it could gather, that could include hire quality, more granular images as sensitive sites. it could include information about radars president. it could trigger a emergency electronic systems, maybe even have -- so that some of the kind of things that could give this to a choose -- above what they had previously. they have said that they don't believe that this has provided china with more information, or at least, very much more sensitive information than they would've been getting with a satellites above had. >> okay, that's exactly the point i was about to ask. -- from the washington post suggests that this could provide the u.s. with more intelligence on china than china got from the balloon crossing the continental u.s.. is that wishful thinking? >> i think that's probably correct. david's right. it doesn't make sense to me,

it's a very risky maneuver. it seems like this would absolutely be detected, so i'm trying to understand what the calculus was but the chinese, and what they were trying to learn but this balloon. it kind of baffles the mind that they thought this would slip under the radar. you know, from a u.s. perspective. it definitely was not going to. we're going to learn a lot, i think, overtime, about what the chinese were up to, what they were planning. as well as what they were wanting to learn about what was going on is that the united states that we take these risks. all open questions that i think will ultimately be answered by our intelligence community. >> jenna, last question. china is expressing anger over the u.s. shooting. it's balloon down after its balloon across the continental united states it was in u.s. airspace. does that seem of rich do you? >> i mean, we heard earlier in the week that chinese officials were claiming that this was a weather balloon, so clearly, the diplomatic back and forth, the statements about frustration, about what the balloons intentions actually were, and alex's response of beat angry, they're still

holding out that it's a weather balloon. you can see that they might continue that line of thought. i think that really signals that the fallout here is going to be more diplomatic than anything. >> okay. that leads me to more questions, but will leave the conversation there. jen and clint, thanks for joining us this afternoon. we appreciate it. or this morning, depending on what part of the country. around a new warning this week from the cia about china. this one has nothing to do with the spy balloon, or does that? new details, next. w details, next. you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil.

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senior government official telling nbc news that chinese five balloons travel over the continental u.s. at least three times during the trump administration. the official also said china has violated the sovereignty as several other nations in five continents. today, every news has learned house republicans are in the early stages of continuing a solution criticizing president biden's handling that the

balloon. earlier today, the house the telegenic committee chair is expressing his concern. >> the administration said they will try to collect whatever is left of having this strewn across the ocean to see what we can learn their. we're going to find what signals intelligence, that the administration might have been able to capture from that, understand what this was doing. anytime it's good all or adversaries, you're not going to get to come to the united states and take a tour of our sensitive military sites, and have a free shot. >> joining me now is massachusetts congressman, jake -- i democratic member of the select committee on china. welcome to the show, congressman. first on the breaking news, is that kind of diminish any republican criticism here? the fact that it happened three times under the trump administration? >> good to be on. the entire republican criticism is disappointed and hypocritical. this is a foreign policy victory for joe biden. he responded to an international incidents and a strong and measured fashion.

from basic officer course onwards, military leaders learned that you got a balance the mission against force protection considerations. and this -- the mission was to protect american airspace, as well as maximalist counterintelligence opportunities. the force protection considerations we're about ensuring that civilians, send american property on the ground, we're not going to be subject to debris from a missile strike. mission accomplished. we, as you pointed out earlier, are likely to come out of this in a stronger position relative to the chinese communist parties surveillance capabilities. it's just disappointing that at a time when the ccp, frankly, looks pretty weak and confidence, that republicans wouldn't be supporting our commander-in-chief. see jinping is watching very closely right now. this was an opportunity to show strong resolve, and instead, they're engaging in partisan bickering, just to score some points at their base. >> you mentioned the debris,

what do you think the u.s. might be able to learn from that debris once it gathers? at what is your attitude as well on the u.s. handling of this whole situation? >> so far, it's been a victory for joe biden. he has maximalist force protection, maximize counterintelligence opportunities, and he has demonstrated over -- american resolve to protect our airspace. we're going to find out, obviously, what can be recovered from the debris. clearly, doing it over water maximalism's our ability to collect that information. i think we should respond to roughly in the same template that the chinese responded in 2001 with our assets, that was downed by them not. we are going to hold on to any sensitive material that we find, that's for sure. >> okay, speaking, you mentioned the chinese president xi jinping, as china warns that it reserves the right to respond, i want to play for you what cia director melbourne said about the president

earlier this week. listen here. >> we know, as a matter of intelligence, that he is instructed the people's liberation army to be ready by 2027 to conduct a successful invasion. that says not mean that he is decided to conduct an invasion in 2027, or any other year, but it's a reminder that the seriousness of his focus, and his ambition. >> specifically speaking about the invasion of taiwan. how concerned are you about the possibility of, thus and how much do you think is factoring in here to how the u.s. navigates tensions? >> i'm deeply concerned. that's one of the reasons i'm going to taiwan as a member of the select committee on china in just a few weeks time. why it's so important that the president has been successful in inducing the chin -- the japanese, south korea's, filipinos, an australian, is it doubled down on their own defense preparations. our ability to maintain peace across the taiwan straight, and indeed, to maintain a free and

open indo-pacific, really relies on a lot of strong, bilateral, and multilateral alliances. we have to build an entire network that can contain china's increase scene aggressive expansionist tendencies. >> congressman, when you are pointed to the select committee on china, you said, quote, this congress in my generation have an opportunity to rise above politics, and to chart a course for sound strategy. as you watch how republicans respond to this balloon situation, slamming the administration, does it give you any concerned that gold might be too difficult to come together on? >> it's disappointing. and as i said, the chinese communist party right now is we can and confident. this maneuver with the balloon as clumsy at best. this was an opportunity for america to come together, or demonstrates strength and resolve, rally behind a commander in chief as he is executing competent policy, and instead, the house gop is just engaged in figure pointing.

i think a demonstration of, that it puts -- its all imagine this exact episode played out with donald trump was president. do we really think marco rubio, or josh -- would be criticizing? him know, of course not. he could've threatened to drop a nuclear bomb of the things we train him on. it's the height of hypocrisy. they lose credibility now on the issue of bipartisan strategy with the chinese communist party. i'm not giving up on. it is too important. my generation, veterans in particular, have a role in congress trying to chart a course of sound strategy that is bigger than the day today bickering in the house. >> speaking of bigger than the day-to-day bickering, there is a familiar scene outside the capital being resurrected. for now fencing being involved around the capitol. let's make it very quick. there are concerns being brought up by certain colleagues of yours that about security concerns of people trying to carry firearms to the capitol complex, and metal detectors been removed. do you share their concerns? is there a situation where

politics should be set aside here for safety? >> the u.s. capital as the people's house. it should be free and open to the public, the journalist, to hold their representatives to account. in general, i don't like to see us put up fencing, or any kinds of hardening of the people's house. for a high profile, sensitive account like the state of the union, i have confidence the secret service is doing what's reasonable. i do expect that fencing will come down. i'm more focus on the actual speech itself. i'm excited about, it open to hear the president expressed strong and clear support for social security and medicare. we are going to make sure there are soul, bent and they are there for generations to come. >> congressman, jake -- thanks for talking to us today, congressman. appreciate it. >> good to be with you. >> president biden gets -- his own report card at the state of the union. what grade would progressives give them? what should they give him? next. next with the freestyle libre 2 system, you can know where your glucose level is

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huddled with his advisors and speech writers at camp david, putting the finishing touches on his state of the union address. he is expected to make the case for his reelection during the speech to the divided congress. a new washington post, abc news, poll shows his approval rating of 42%. joining me now, robert gibbs, former obama white house press secretary. now nbc news and msnbc political analyst. danielle moodie, host of the podcast -- and co-host of the podcast, democracy. ash and cristobal, journalist, documentarian, and author. his new book is the fight of his, life inside joe biden's white house. welcome into all of you. all right, let's begin with you, robert. first, you have been through three of these. at least one to an unfriendly congress. what is the biggest discussion or debate your taking place right now at camp david? >> well, i guess is that

they're pretty unified at camp david about what to. do i think they have that outline of vision for the future of the country, and really systematically convinced the american people that there are most capable of implementing that vision for the future. i think there is an important moment for president biden because, as you, mentioned the first time that he is standing in front of a congress controlled, at least in one, house by an indifferent party. i think what's going to be most interesting here is not just watching what he has to say, about what he wants to take the country, but how it begins to position that's the magic argument against the vision of the house republicans. i think this is the relationship that is going to define the political year, i think that's the magic is really going to start to set up early arguments that you can see take place between now, all the way through election day in 2024. >> robert, the president is expected to take steps for make america's -- the commute shortly, to meet indication -- the academy and infrastructure.

what else should he be talking about? do you think he should bring up the debt ceiling? >> i anticipate that he does bring up the debt ceiling. i think, again, you have to set up arguments that you're going to have freely for the rest of the year, and i think that's going to be a defining line. the most important thing, the role that he and his governments have played in making the lives of every day americans easier, and more affordable, and the battle that continues to keep the economy strong, as well as bring inflation down. i think infrastructure, jobs, clearly, they're going to be a top of mind. look, this is the year that a lot of the big legislation, from 2022, is implemented. i think you're going to see that his political travel, with robin katrina rounds factories, manufacturing facilities, i think that he'll talk a lot about that. i anticipate also that will hear this week a couple -- about the war between ukraine and russia, you'll begin to

hear much of that, as well as china even before the balloon came to the united states. >> and daniel, let's bring you an. here the president is getting ready to deliver his own report, but what do you think they'd give him? what do they want to hear on tuesday? >> i mean, i think that those give biden a round of d+. all the things that robert has laid out in terms of making americans lives easier, and better, and going after companies that try and abuse americans. whether that be inflated prescription drug prices, whether that be gas, you know, and other issues, one of the things that he's taken, on credit cards. right? so all of these little fees that we tend to pay when we're going into our finances. i think those things are important, but i also believe that biden needs to show that the democrats are the adults in the room. while republicans want to create an entire agenda around going after his son, or around

going and continuing with donald trump's grievances, democrats are the ones that are actually working for the american people, and are interested in making their lives better. >> chris -- insiders are saying that this is a chance for biden to sway the skeptics, certainly, it would be a chance to speak to them as well. carter, their vote if he chooses to run for the election. what are you hearing from your sources about this he wants to make? >> i think one of the challenges here will be trying to keep it short. we all know joe biden. i think he's going to want to brag about all the things he's accomplished, understandably. i think he's got a touch of a lot of the obvious things that we've already touched on. i really think that the single most important thing is for biden to underline, and reemphasize, the stakes of defeating vladimir putin in ukraine. there's a lot of nonsense being written about negotiated

settlements, while russia still occupies parts of ukraine. the truth is, this four, vladimir putin, conquering ukraine's existential. for the u.s. in the west, stopping him is ex essential. i think joe biden will go there, and i think that, you know, if we fail in ukraine, it's only going to make it much more likely -- on taiwan, and a battle between democracy and autocracy as well and truly joint. i think that's the fight of joe biden's life, which also happens to be the title of my book. >> yes, it certainly does. let's take a look at the reception biden got at the -- >> let me ask you a simple question. are you with me? i ran for president -- [crowd chanting]

>> given how's approval ratings, are how much of a case says the president still need to make and really delaying it all out there, since so many people who paint attention to the state of the union? >> well, approval ratings are not what they used to be. in fact, ron cleanse pointed out recently that this point in his presidency, reagan was somewhere around 33, biden's at 42, so there is that. i think that the best playbook for joe biden at this point's would-be bill clinton's. when back in the 90s, when you'd and graduate setting his hair on fire, and leading a scorched earth political strategy of impeaching him from monica lewinsky, bill clinton, morales, and north them, the republicans, it went about the business of governing. i think that's what joe biden is going to do. >> daniel, let's talk about those poll numbers. this information here just

coming in about this new poll, about the sentiments that the democrats, -- is reelected in 2024. 55% will be enthusiastic but not satisfied. -- how seriously do you think the white house to take these poll numbers? >> i don't think they need to take the poll numbers seriously at all, they need to take the evidence that they saw in return elections, which is a really energizing, activated, electorate. they recognize the importance of this moment, the importance of holding on to our democracy, and the importance of putting people in power that are going to look after our interests both domestically and abroad. i think the poll numbers have shown themselves to be sort of like reading tea leaves, and even worse than that. over the last couple cycles that we've seen. i think that they need to focus on what he has been doing, and what people in the age, and not be concerned with the numbers. >> there are polls that suggests that --

don't want biden to run again, do you think you can change that with the state of the union? >> i don't think that the state of the union is to change anyone's mind. i think that it's to lay out the agenda that the president wants to continue moving this country forward. i think, honestly, if we're going to be real, 30% of this country is lost. they're not coming back. so joe biden needs to concentrate on the 70% of americans that are with him, that are with this country, that believe in this country. you know, and its values. that is what he needs to focus on. the 30% that have gone the way of maga and trump, they're not coming back. he needs to focus on those that are with him. >> robert, what are former obama folks saying about biden running again potentially. you heard the former -- chance there, at the dnc. >> yeah, look, i think that democrats are particularly, at the dnc, and places like that, washington, they're remarkably unified around president biden. i think you saw that dissipate,

the worry about's reelection may have been quite a bets around the midterm elections. look, i don't think there's any doubt. i think the white house would not argue in this. there are strengthening up the personal attributes that they'd like to see, that the president may over the course of the next few years. they're going to have to answer the question around age, but look at what may be the most important thing that happened at the dnc. joe biden is taking no chances with his reelection, and his renomination and, by moving south carolina first. we know that south carolina meant to joe biden in 2020, and he's assured that south carolina is going to get to basically launch his reelection in 2024. and look, i think they understand the forecast to be done, but i don't -- there in a strong position as early as the democratic party. >> south carolina, that's a great point moving them first in the primary process. chris, what about biden insiders?

you wrote the book. >> well, one thing that i write about in the book is the single thing that shock joe biden more than anything else during his presidency was the lasting power of maga, of trumpism. he thought it would be in the reviewer mirror a long time ago, he won by 7 million votes, he thought he had a mandate, arguably he did. donald trump maybe wounded, but maga is very much alive. i think they have their sights on trump as the likely nominee. e can still exercise a lot of power, and takedown rivals. i think they're planning to run against him. i think they feel that democracy is very much still on the ballot in 2024. >> danielle, few seconds here to answer. what is the one thing you want to hear biden touched on at the state of the union? >> i want joe biden to talk

about the importance of this democracy, and that there are enemies to both domestic and foreign who are trying to attack us, continually, so we need to remain vigilant. >> pardon me, sorry about that. robert? >> continued works on threatening the economy and making life more affordable for everyday americans. >> chris? >> again i would say with ukraine, take a page from ronald reagan, joe biden's attitude should be, we win, and they lose. >> our incredible panel this afternoon, we appreciate it. do you remember cds? jimbo at this added like when you have a scratch on them? that's the story of donald trump on the fifth amendment. fifth amendment they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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could be key evidence and the attorney general civil investigation into donald trump's business practices. newly-released video from trump saga step position shows the former president pleading the fifth over and over, refusing to answer any questions. >> mr. trump, the focus of the investigation, we are primarily going to cover today, involves the presentation of your statement for financial condition between 2011, in the present, i take it you were generally familiar with the statement, it's not correct? >> for all the receipts provided to my answer, which is incorporated here in, in its entirety, i declined to answer the question. >> you are currently the president of the trump organization, is that? correct >> statements. are >> the 2019 statement of financial -- included false information, is that correct? >> same answer. >> lisa reuben joins me now. lisa, welcome.

in a source with knowledge of the deposition told nbc news that trump took the fifth more than four time -- 440 times. that contradiction -- a statement he made in 2016. take a listen here. >> you see the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why taking the fifth amendment? >> anyone in my position not taking the fifth amendment would be a fool, an absolute full. >> from a legal perspective, which donald trump is right? could his conflicting statements be used against him in the civil case? >> i think that donald trump who says the fifth amendment is a tool oftentimes -- who have some criminal exposure is the right donald trump. there is a portion of the deposition that you didn't plan, where trump essentially goes after new york attorney general, letitia james, and says this is all a witch hunts, a political persecution on her part, that she ran for office, motivated

to go out and get him. she told new york voters that she would do just that. that immediately proceeds what he said. you have to be a full not to take the fifth in the situation. certainly, it's a major role reversal for the former presidents. the other thing i found really interesting about the deposition is before he gives that statement, you have his lawyer stage whispering to him, wade the statement, read the statement. he clearly doesn't want to. you can see it has body language that he is restrain self at every moments. this was a hideously painful moment for the former president, anyone watching this could see, lori. >> it goes against everything he typically does when it comes to his speech going off topic. trump is also in the middle of another legal battle in new york, on monday, manhattan district attorney's office began presenting evidence to a grand jury about trump selects hush money payments to stormy daniels. his former lawyer, trump's former lawyer, laid out the stakes. listen here. >> this investigation that was

to be brought by alvin bragg's office previously -- junior, is the most detrimental to him, his freedom, his livelihood, his business, et cetera. this is because it's the easiest to prove. the checks of the checks, we know a lot. there are recordings, which have been released. he is not in the same position where he can deny, or alive, the way that he will and some of the other matters. >> do you agree? is this the most detrimental investigation trump basis? >> i don't know if it's the most detrimental, but it's certainly the most straightforward. one, where lawyers like me, as well as lawyers like michael cohen, can connect the dots pretty easily. let's put aside cohen's own personal involvement here. donald trump was very careful when he was committing a number of the acts that people like me would say are criminal, right? he doesn't use email, he doesn't use tax, but the hush money scheme as one where his

fingerprints are definitely more palpable, and evident than they are in a number of other things that he did. so, i think cohen is right about that. on the other hands, as someone who believes that former president trump does bear some responsibility, and should be held criminally accountable he certainly the witness so many of these activities, as well as participant there. and i'm sure there are people who are cringing at the new york district attorney's office every time he appears on ours and others air, talking about what he believes about the case, and what he experienced himself. that is not a position you want to be and with someone you see as a witness in your investigation. >> you bring up a good point, lisa reuben, thank you. we'll have to leave it there. up next, hear from a black professors say no to a florida law of restricting lessons on race. race and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now.

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ron desantis's assault on the education establishment in florida. this, week the college board stripped its new ap course an african american studies of several riders and topics following the governor's announcement that he would be on the curriculum. it comes as desantis also proposed to overhaul higher arch occasion in the state, by limiting diversity and equity programs. joining me now is former naval officer and author and professor, marvin done. marvin, welcome. in what is your reaction this week to when you heard the college board remove such topics as critical race theory, black feminism, and black lives matter from its curriculum, and also that it added black services as a topic? >> i was thoroughly disappointed. autocrat one, education zero. you know, this is not the american -- for 70 years, i've been fighting for my country, to

have a come to this. i don't think most americans wants to be told what to do but the government. in classrooms, this is an american. this is unprecedented. it's very upsetting to those of us who -- and beyond. to making the adjustment to attack us, they're taking this down, the governor -- the head of the college board said the changes were made for instructional reasons, with the input from professors. didn't have anything to do with political pressure. do you believe him? >> i do not. i do not. i think that the -- i think the governor's influence on the board is irrelevant. i don't believe for a moment that there was a resolution of the. as this man, this is not about african american history. this is about the white house. this man is running for president. he doesn't care about black history. he wants to appeal to his base, they love this. it is not about our black

history, it's about him trying -- to for the presidency. >> you are also personally intent on defying desantis's warren education in florida. you are one of eight plaintiffs in a lawsuit against him, formerly known as the stock wrongs to our kids and employees act. what is this lawsuits, in the act demanding. , about how race is taught in florida schools. >>, well the -- what we can and cannot teach. you cannot tell us with any sense of professionalism, because he doesn't have it, that we must teach history objectively. how do you teach about slavery objectively? how do you teach about enslaved women having a child -- i can't teach that objectively. i can't teach the holocaust, people being burden ovens, objective louis. now there is a weight you can tell them about the holocaust, but you can't say was. bad that's -- but it was bad. you can tell them about slavery,

but you can't tell them that it was bad. it was bad. so you have the government dictating the extent to which if teachers can teach history and how we have the -- and florida -- >> okay, really quickly, last few seconds we have with you. you also hold statewide teach the truth tours that are taken high school students and some of the sites of the worst racial violence in florida history. tell me about those tours. >> well, we take high school students, each with a parent or grandparent, to places where the blood was shed. this -- it's important to connect emotionally from the history. desantis is -- is trying to take emotion out of, history had to have -- we're trying to have people talk to each other, enjoy being together, and not get into blaming anyone.

to feel guilty about what happened years ago. are groups of people are going to understand this was important, they're going to walk around where it happened. >> he knew he have a few more seconds left, i want to get you to give us your final thoughts on this fight that you're currently in. >> well, i think the governor has touched a live wire in american soul. i think he's going to get burned. i don't know that this is going to play in pennsylvania, ohio, michigan, and probably run. just because it works in florida doesn't mean it's gonna get into the white house. >> marvin dunn, we appreciate your time. thank you. thank you at home for watching. i'm cory coffin in for alex. -- continues our coverage. r coverage uhh...nope. intuit quickbooks helps you manage your payroll taxes, cheers! with 100% accurate tax calculations guaranteed. every day, millions of things need to get to where they're going. and at chevron, we're working to help reduce

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