happened next. watch this. >> you called this a terror attack went by no definition was a terror tack. that's a lie. you told that lie on purpose. >> the way i phrase things yesterday, it was sloppy and down. >> i agree with you. it was a mistake to say that yesterday. >> it is embarrassing. it's cringe where they. imagine a senator from one of the largest, most powerful states in our union debasing himself like that for tucker carlson. this is a tv host that raged against the republican congressman because that member allege that tucker carlson was given on a job on capitol hill for the republican establishment members. [inaudible] shaking in there because of the congressional committee had to put out a statement denying the allegation. that's where we are now as this republican party basically, modern republican, like you said, pat itself on standing up to communism in the ussr, now

were lives in fear of two privilege white men. donald trump and tucker carlson. >> one quick thing, i know you're about to start your show, i have to say, to be fair to tucker, wouldn't you to pummel ted cruz when you saw him unable to defend his wife after donald trump called her ugly? i mean ted cruz, it is not hard for him to kind of debase himself. >> i agree with you, great to see you as always my friend, great show. best of luck with your new book. we are going to talk about that next week. i'm looking forward to it, mehdi. thanks. take care my friend. coming up on ayman, fighting back house republicans -- want to investigate unfounded conspiracies and even forced biden to resign over yes, the surveillance balloon. congressman john garamendi is here to outline democratic plans to combat those efforts, plus new allegations against george santos. and the gloves are off for the prospective gop presidential field is already hitting each other left and right. joe biden is just sitting back and taking it all in. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's

get started. it is going to be a long two years with republicans in charge of the house. so buckle up, this coming thursday, the newly created house select subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government, yes that is a real name, is said to hold its first hearing. no topic or possible witnesses list has yet been disclosed. now if you couldn't tell by that name, the subpoena or the sub panel rather is just the very latest avenue for fearmongering that republicans are trying to do. and what they do best. peddled baseless conspiracies. not much is obvious from the subcommittee's first known interview. this week, lawmakers met with former fbi official joel sanborn for roughly four hours. the conservative media congressional republican circle, sandborn is a key player in a

so-called, deep state plot to use law enforcement to target and silence. conservatives. last year, the chair of this new subcommittee, jim jordan, while he claimed that sandborn and other fbi officials pressured agents to manipulate data about domestic terrorism, putting the stats to backup the biden administration's focus on far-right extremism. now, lawyers for sandborn have said that she vigorously denies these allegations. and that there is no real evidence to support these right-wing claims. but that is the issue. it is an issue we face time and time again with republicans. the facts, they don't matter. and neither do findings or results or any evidence. what matters is creating a aura of wrongdoing that oftentimes is all you need to cast doubt on a president and his administration. and a force, joel sanborn is in the only republican target in these new gop mission. this week jordan who also serves as chairman of the house committee, are you sensing a pattern here? issuing

his four subpoenaed to the biden ministration and his officials requesting a laundry list of documents from the attorney general merrick garland and from fbi director -- miguel cardona. jordan's fishing expedition is linked to another far-right conspiracy. this one accusing federal agencies of quote, targeting of parents for exercising their first amendment rights and school board meetings. now it is hard to take this request from jim jordan seriously what he himself defied a congressional subpoena from the january six committee and yet once again there is no evidence whatsoever that parents were targeted. shortly after the subpoenas were made public the fbi came out and denied any wrongdoing on the part of the biden administration and in just the last few days we have seen in realtime a new republican conspiracy take hold. the president biden was

somehow derelict in his handling of the suspected trainee surveillance balloon. gop lawmakers are already eyeing plans to investigate biden and his officials over their handling of this matter and despite the fact that three similar balloons entered the u. s. airspace during the trump administration according to the defense department and one republican congressman even called on -- kamala harris to resign. look, i know what you are thinking, we can kind of laugh at these investigations and even mock republicans for being so unserious but we can't lose sight of how incredibly dangerous their actions are. these trumped up investigations are effectively turning fringe conspiracies into mainstream politics in this country and as the rolling stones -- put it, getting people focused on these theories isn't a means, it's an

end. so now we know the republican playbook for the next two years my question is how will the democrats fight back. democratic congressman john garamendi is the member of the house select committee on the weaponization of the federal government and he joins me now. congressman, it's great to see you again. thank you for coming back on the show, you know the subcommittee has had quite the rocky start. on tuesday house republicans in an attempt to expand the sub panel to 21 members inadvertently shrunk it to 12 it gave democrats a supermajority in that process. and that error was obviously mended but one democratic -- was just the latest evidence that this maga clown show was never serious. give me your thoughts on this. what does that kind of carelessness tell us about what we should expect from this thursday's hearing. >> well, first of all, let's start with the basics. it is

important. and it is the task of congress to invest the new oversight. we do that all the time. i was chairman of the readiness subcommittee and the armed services committee. we had six or seven major hearings every other subcommittee did to. all of them over sight of the u.s. military -- that is our task. but this particular subcommittee is going to be oh, my good dates. where are they going to go? they're going to go down the rabbit hole. they are going to go after every conspiracy. theory that is out there. and jim jordan is going to lead the pack. we are serious about this. we want the truth. and the votes of us that are on the committee, stacey past get, who is an extraordinary lawyer and a very wise, very confident woman, she will guide us to the crazy hearings that are going on. you cited two that are out there. they're going to be many, many

more. we want the truth and we want it to come out. and we are quite certain that the latest conspiracy thing will be on mr. jordan's agenda for the next two years. but you can count on the eight of us on this committee to make sure that the american public knows the truth. >> let me ask you about that for a moment. because republicans now have seemingly centered their entire governing agenda all around various conspiracy theories. they are not going to pass any laws and are not going to get anything meaningful going so my question to you, is what damage do you think the subcommittee will do to our republic of all of their consumed with is forcing discussion -- on conspiracy theories? i know that you're probably going to take it seriously in the democrats will take it seriously but you are also gonna get dragged into the mud by the republicans who set the agenda as the majority in the committee. >> well, we are not interested in mudslinging. we are interested in getting to the truth and we will certainly question as, we should, on this committee. but what we need to understand is the extraordinary situation that two years of biden administration, and the democrats control of congress,

what we are able to do. we came off the worst possible situation in 2021. we had a pandemic and the entire world was shut down. just running for months biden and the democrats turn that around and we have the highest drug growth and we have inflation that is descending over the last few months. we have the situation of which the american unemployment rate is the lowest it has been since 1969. all of that is a fact. and you can be sure that we are going to be talking about that. and we will just disposition all the good things that are going on in this nation, including extraordinarily strong military that was wise enough to have the great balloon situation. >> the great balloon situation which, republicans are now calling on the president or at least one is, to resign, they want to consume us with investigations into things like the administration's response to this expected surveillance balloon which was, as you mentioned, shutdown yesterday. is this going to become a victim millionaire pattern or

process over the next few years, that republicans characterize every action by the biden administration as a scandal worthy of congressional investigation under the guise of oversight? >> republicans are going to do everything they can to harm the administration. they want to take joe biden down. they want to install trump for four more years. that is their goal. in the figure that it can continue going away at this. but it just really bothers me. this whole balloon business, a whole lot of my colleagues were, you know, passing a whole lot of hot air. and the reality is, they didn't understand what the american military was actually doing. we knew what was going on. there are some classified information that may be coming out later about how we handled it. what the intelligence, what we are gathering, not only on the ground, or in the water but also in the air. it is

important for us to be able to understand what the chinese are up to. i am absolutely certain that there is a chinese general that is in deep trouble back in china because he gave us five days plus accounting of this balloon to either understand what they were doing and how they are going about doing it, what they're looking for. and there is much more to be said that -- that is what the oversight is that will commence this next week and the new armed services committee in the house of representatives. >> congressman, before i go, i have to ask you at the state of the union. president biden is set to address congress on tuesday. what would you like to hear from the president? what should he be saying come tuesday night? >> he is going to start off by saying the state of the union is strong. he will start off by saying just look at what we have done over the last two years. we, the american people, we suffered, we actually dealt with a pandemic. we are pushing through it now. our jobs in our economy is coming back. we have

an infrastructure foundation that is going to go into place and we are going to have a green, non carbon economy being built in america. we are going to lead this world, we're going to rebuild the american economy and manufacturing, he's going to talk about all of that. i'm going to stand up and be cheering every single way along the way. and the republicans are going to sit there on their hands and they are going to go, oh my goodness. how are we going to deal with all of this? it is too good. so they will go about all of this extreme maga business, looking for the next conspiracy theory. we will deal with it. we are very competent, the people who are on this committee, they will just give mr. jordan a good sound thumping. >> best of luck to you, sir, on that committee on that subcommittee i should say, democratic conquer -- it was a pleasure. thank you for making time for us. >> anytime, thank you. >> let's continue this now, my

senate panel, michael steele, the former chairman of the republican national committee is also an nbc political analyst. maya wylie, a former assistant u.s. attorney, she now serves as the president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights. great have both of you with us. michael, the so-called deep state has long been a bogeyman of the far-right. it got a lot more intense with the trump era. now this subcommittee is legitimizing that conspiracy even more so. how in the world did we get here? >> oh. it has been a long track to this point. as you have covered the years and we know full well that this slow disintegration within the gop is not really new. it was, anomie, effectively managed over the years, pushed back in some instances. but it has never really been snuffed out. there has always been the sense

of conspiracy or suspicion about government in many respects. but now it is just metastasized in the form of maga republicanism. you have the jim jordans of the world who, when subpoenaed legitimately because of questions regarding what they knew and their involvement in january 6th, basically they flip the verb to the congress and the country. now sitting in their, on their high horse demanding that the administration officials grippier before than the highest subpoena. but were those officials i would say i will show up when you go before the january six committee and testify as you are requested. but as that is where we are. the expectation is, don't do is i do but do as i say. and, i think you are opening question to the administration is an important one. what are you going to do about it? how are you going to manage and navigate the space where you know what the game plan is. this is not a mystery. we know what it is. and so the democrats have got to find a

game and they have to play and stick to it if they're think they are going to survive this next 18 months. >> maya, what do you think that endgame looks like for democrats? i mean, you heard what congressman garamendi had to say about how democrats on this a panel plan to fight back, do you have faith that reality can triumph over fiction? >> well, i think one thing, amen, that we saw in the midterms is reality for many people did triumph. we have people, including young people, people of color and people who are being told that it was going to be more difficult for them to vote and fighting for this democracy and showing up to be heard. what we have seen is that a majority of americans are deeply concerned about democracy and are really fearful of it. we ran a poll at the leadership conference in september that showed americans, literally overwhelming majority of americans frankly weren't

sure we still have a democracy in for five years. that is striking. but that is the point. americans, no matter their political beliefs want to see congress do the peoples work. and what democrats have to do, which is what every elected official should do, it show that they are paying attention to the needs and the demands on the concerns of the american people. and working to solve problems, like the fact that we are facing a medicaid cliff where you know, 4. 3, 5. 3 million children are going to lose health care coverage. we are looking at a country where people, the president i think brightly will take victory laps in the economy, it is also true that there are still problems to be solved. right now the discussions about whether we are going to take it out of the pockets of people who are struggling to support themselves and their families or not. with the depth ceiling in the budget. and democrats have been very united so far. and i think that is something we have not seen from the the republican caucus and that is something they have to stay.

united, focus, talking to people about their problems and needs. >> my, amicable, please stick around. we've got a lot more to breakdown of the break. coming up, george santos might be under investigation by the fbi but first richard louis is here with the headlines. hey. richard >> hayman, good to see you -- might do an issue an urgent evacuation warning that is living within a mile of a train derailment in case of an explosion there. 20 train cars were carrying hazardous materials, ten of which derailed on friday night in ohio. officials saying a drastic temperature change over the last few hours, leaves potential for catastrophic -- failure. senator leader chuck schumer says all senators receive a briefing on february 15th on this suspected surveillance balloon from china. this comes after u.s. forces shot down what the pentagon called a high altitude surveillance balloon at the direction of president biden. and temperatures are warming by around 50 degrees in the northeast, this comes after arctic air brought dangerously cold windchill temperatures

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couldn't specht congressionally it has accused -- sexual harassment according to a letter that may have been sent to the house committee on ethics. the man derrick myers before his job offer was rescinded earlier this week, according to the letter. a for congresswoman susan wild, the ranking member of the house ethics committee confirmed to nbc news that the committee had served myers letter but she declined to comment further. derek mayer, the accuser was charged last year with wiretapping in ohio after a small newspaper he ran published audio of courtroom testimony that someone else recorded and sent to him. journalism organizations rallied around him, calling for the charges to be dropped in

the name of press freedom. george santos told -- that his office had been in the process of hiring myers but decided against it because of concerns over those wiretapping churches. on twitter, derek mayer said that he was making his complaint public for the sake of transparency, nbc news has reached out -- he has yet to respond. meanwhile the fbi is investigating george santos's alleged role in stealing set thousands of dollars from a gofundme charity campaign, it was intended to cover surgical costs for veteran dying dog. veteran richard ossoff told nbc news that he has been providing the fbi with requested records, including text messages exchanged with george santos. let's bring back our panel. maya, let's first talk about this fbi mastication. there is real potential legal consequences for santos's trail of -- walk us through what he might be on the hook for. >> well, look, we are going to have to see what comes up in the investigations, but there are the massive questions about what went on in the campaign

financing and alone, we have got this campaign. his treasurer quit. not a good sign or a good look for someone who is facing this kind of investigation. doesn't let the treasure off the hook if she had any reason to know what was going. on this could be very serious criminal charges. but you want to say even this latest crime on gentlemen -- we don't know what allegations are or are not true. but here's the point. part of those allegations -- civil case of sexual harassment but it could be a criminal case in d. c. and under d. c. law you forcibly touch someone in the way he has alleged to do. that is actually a misdemeanor sexual offense. so you know it is the list is growing so much that i would think -- keep track of all the potential criminal liability that george santos could face. >> i think we are running out of space on the internet track all the different lines on the different stories that are coming out. and to that point,

mike, i think there are a lot of questions about that new york times reporting detailing the sexual assault allegations against mr. santos. but it seems, the house ethics committee could be investigating the matter if we decide to take it up. has any member of congress in your story, political memory faced as many investigations as george santos has early on in his career? >> well amen, the thing that strikes me so much here is that ever since congressman santos discovered nuclear fusion he hasn't been the same. and i think -- >> neither has the world, to be honest. >> neither has the world. and the weight of that has made so heavily on him professionally and personally, that he is now engaging in mad slap level behavior. so i think that, george santos is the best representation of the modern-day micah republican

party. and i think that is all we need to know. i think that is all we have to say. i mean, you have got people right now wanting to go after former elected officials, current elected officials for lies and, you know, the deep state, all of this crazy. when they have got someone right in front of them that is a full representation of all of that. so, and they want to do nothing. they don't want to do any of that. so i just think we have to put it in context. and we will just wait to see what else george santos has discovered or created or what else he has done. we will just keep moving along with. it >> we invited him to be on the show, he was nominated for grammy tonight. he was not able to make. it >> that is what i was going to say, he is probably in the grammys, getting ready to accept that envelope. >> joking aside, bloomberg

reported that george santos bragged to donors in 2021 that he was a producer on the infamous spider-man broadway musical, a claim that the actual producer of the show has debunked. and my question is why spider-man? it was a highly ridiculed flop at the time. he couldn't pick a more popular musical? like hamilton, or book of mormon? something that is pretty successful? he went with the spider-man musical? >> ayman, are you actually trying to figure out whether or not he makes rational decisions are good choices? is that what you are doing here? and michael, are you taking on the task of trying to take him to take the descended confessed? stop it, stop it right now. i do want to say that i did teach beyoncé how to dance and sing but i have not yet aspired to congress but i am sure that

beyoncé would back my run when i do. >> listen, me too. i'm not going to lie. i'm all in on you, my out with whatever you need, whatever i can do to help. we are all. in but i'm going to go back to something you said which i think is actually interesting. he is so emblematic of the republican party. so symbolic of the republican party, to some extent everything he has done, others have done. the lying, the misleading, the exaggeration, the deception. we have seen now, new york republicans demand that santos resign. he is still enjoying support from house republicans. what does that say about the gop that the most influential voices that kevin mccarthy, the leaders, they are still defending him? -- well, it shows the disconnect between the community comes from which has made it very clear that they want him to step down, certainly the party officials in his state in that congressional district want that. the current leadership in

the house has another plan. the baseline reality for kevin mccarthy is that he can't afford to lose the vote. so -- the practical aspect of this to, when you only have a force seat majority, a 45 seat majority, you can't afford to lose that vote. particularly where it looks like in a special election, that seat could flip back to the democrats. so there is a lot politically involved here. but at a certain level, you have got to stop as a national party and go, what are we saying and doing? what are we saying and doing to ourselves here where we are backing someone who is not just a fraud but, what an untold parallel. we have never seen anyone is fraudulent, as such a liar as this individual. so since this is the embrace, this is the party. he, marjorie taylor greene, both of them are

the face and really the court essence of where this party is going to go. so we can get ready for the 2024 cycle, you know, george santos will be as much a figure as anyone else. regardless of what happens -- >> probably speaking at the convention. prime time slot. >> exactly. that is where i was going to. go exactly. because of the embrace of him, no matter what happens on the back end of this, it won't be enough to undo the stain. panel please stick around -- robson popcorn, donald trump lashing out at his fellow republicans. surprise,. surprise. all right, so the

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republican presidential primaries or more than a year off. believe it or not, the camp -- donald trump started attacking his presumptive rivals over and over and over again. in his words, these are his words, virginia governor glenn youngkin is ungrateful. his former -- ambassador nikki haley overly ambitious and of course his chief adversary ron desantis is a disloyal, establishment rhino globalist.

i told you. grab some popcorn. it hasn't even been a week. what is more, at least one of those potential rivals is pushing back. desantis told trump to quote, check the scoreboard. a reminder that he won reelection while trump of, course, did not. in some ways, this feels like 2016 all over again. and that should scare on desantis who might want to remember that going tit-for-tat with donald trump tends to make you and also, i don't know, low energy jab, little marco, blind head. my sunday night panel is back with me. so, ron desantis, he can go back to the tape and see what happened to all those senators. michael steele, i'm going to rely on your connections within the gop. what do party leaders and big donors make of this rapidly escalating tension between donald trump and anyone else who dares to step into the ring with him? >> well, they are not happy about it. because it doesn't bode well for what -- the reality of it is, donald trump will try to go to some people

into the race. and try to go to some people out of the race. but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because they are still at the center of the. race and until some people are able to stand up to him and push him down and push him out, he will remain the center of this race. i mean, i just find it i'm using that for the two last years since the 2020 election leading up to this moment, everyone was talking about how much power and control donald trump still had at the gop. the man hadn't engaged the party. he hasn't really done anything except for announce he's going to run again. and as soon as a head pops up with this nikki haley or wrong desantis, it is like, oh my god, yes, no we have way out. no you don't, you still have to get past the guy standing at the doorway. he is not letting anyone out of the room. so the reality for you know desantis, and everyone else is unless you are prepared to come and go to toe to toe you will get stepped on. and this past week, what desantis, i mean that response from desantis was pattycake. that was nothing. it was like, oh,

he really hit donald trump. yeah, what the feather? i mean, that is your gain way? just to have a soft touch. when you are getting smacked upside your head. you write a globalist? seriously? >> so to that point,, maya, what i find so funny as michael was saying is trump called desantis a rhino globalist and on paper these two people are extremely cultural warriors, they both rose to prominence by attacking marginalized people whether it be muslims or mexican migrants or lgbtq americans. i can go on and on. neither has much of a governing philosophy. they don't have like a governing style. do you think, or governing principle,

i should state. do you think voters see a real distinction between them? or is that what donald trump is going to do, he's going to make rhonda scent is this week rino globalist? >> well, what is so interesting and i think michael really said this, i am seeing it in a different way, desantis has built himself modeled on donald trump. he has modeled himself in a warrior -- physically but also policy on using a driving hate and fear as division between people, whether it is to drive a wedge between people because they are gay or lesbian, don't say gay, driving people between -- black people by saying, somehow this woke educational curriculum is bad for people. that is very trumpian but the reality is, where he stops short of trying to walk in the truce of donald trump is by hitting donald trump back hard. to michael's point, but i think that is because the reason he has been

walking in the footsteps of donald trump is because he has been trying to get the donald trump base. and that is a base that has responded to fear and it is a base that has responded, sadly, to that division. to driving division. and that is something that he is trying to hold on to. he is trying to figure out how he can, how does he hit trump when he is saying vote for me because i'm the better trump? and so, i think that is what is most troubling and oddly and disturbingly fascinating about the whole thing. i do want to go back to george santos for one moment, though. because the only thing i want to say is, donald trump has george santos -- george santos to. he is the guy, 30,000 lies of misrepresentation as president. he is the guy who has been accused of passing of hush money during a campaign, a campaign finance violations, he is the one who is inaugural -- he is the one who is still facing investigation -- his business as already been convicted, everything he has touched on every place he is

gone is a crime scene. so i just want to say, we had desantis but we also have all of this mimicry happening. because sadly in disturbingly, it has worked for a minority of americans. but it is too many. and my hope is that it will go back to a time when so many people who also self identify as republicans say, we are and should be the party of -- >> that is fake it to the make a dozen republican mantra teams. >> that is where we have got to go back to. i just want to say desantis is trying to be trump -- it is like punching yourself in the mirror. >> absolutely. yeah. michael steele, milan wiley, always a pleasure to both of you on. love talking to his. always thank you so much for your time. take care. >> up next americans want congress to tackle one issue more than any other. immigration. then why has a little bit done time and time

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policy has remained a contentious and intractable issue in this country and it has only become worse in recent years. just take a look at this week. nine republican led states as a federal judge in texas to shut down daca, the obama policy that products undocumented immigrants that were brought to the u.s.'s children. it is one of the few substantive immigrant programs on the books right now and republicans want to shut it down without offering alternatives. it is also the debate around title 42. you've probably heard of that. the trump era policy that was supposed to be temporary but has blocked migrants from their legal right to seek asylum since 2020. now that president biden has decided the end of covid emergency declaration later this year we might finally see the end to title 42 as well. but once again, there is no indication the alternatives have been

organized by the biden administration. if this policy does in fact end. neither side seems to have long term solutions either, despite the fact that an overwhelming number of americans want congress to take on immigration reform. now to be fair to the biden administration it is difficult to come up with a long term policy when the other side of the aisle refuses to debate and just fear mongers and demonize us and dehumanizes and blames. case in point, the house judiciary committee's first hearing on president biden's handling of immigration related issues, chairman jim jordan blame the president for the rising number of migrants coming into the country, calling his actions quote, intentional. and while all of this infighting and blaming is going on, real lives are affected by americans failed immigration policies. -- came

to the us from gambia, 1993, he has sought protection from persecution. he gets married. his wife is u.s. citizen. he has five u.s. citizen children. he gets a job and becomes a union member. now without any warning, he gets detained at a routine ice tracking. >> it again shows that all of your immigration policies are simply based in hate and bigotry. daca should be no place except working and taking care of his family. >> that is a scene from guerrilla habeas, a new msnbc documentary, it is the latest installment in the turning point series and it looks like the standard issues within the immigration courts through the lights of two lawyers who are passionately fighting to protect the rights of undocumented immigrants. it shows just how stack the odds are against immigrants who simply dream of a better life in the united states. and after the break i will be joined by betsy hershey. she is one of the directors of that

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get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities. while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. (vo) businesses nationwide are switching to verizon business internet. while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too. (vo) get internet that keeps your business ready for anything. from verizon. joining me now is betsy

hershey, co director of msnbc's guerrilla habeas a, new documentary that unpacks how our country's immigration policies leave immigrants and migrants with few options. betsy, it is great to have you with us. talk to us a little bit about how you discover this story and how -- decided to

tell it through the lens of these two lawyers. >> thank you so much for having me, ayman. such a pleasure to be here. my co-director pamela nary into thousand teamwork feeling incredibly helpless and hopeless as so many of us were in this country given the headlines and everything happening in our country. emma is a child psychiatrist and i have been a documentary filmmaker about a decade earlier. so emma saw her old friend gregory pullen, emigration lawyer, actually doing something and actually helping families to stay together that were being torn apart. and he invited us to become a press conference. i just would often old camera and we want that press conference and could knock look away after that. it is actually the opening shot of the film is a first day filming and we that met bob basilicas family who you saw earlier. and our hearts were in it and we were swept

away. and the reason that we focus so much on the lawyers and their incredible tactics that they were using to help people's because that was really the safest thing to focus on the not the time. >> use the word helpless and hopeless. i think it is something we can all relate to when it comes to this issue. and in the film we actually see that this work takes a personal toll on the lawyers, with one of them deciding to leave the practice altogether. and that is the thing, the immigration system in this country is not only wearing down migrants but it is also wearing down the people who genuinely want to help them. what stood out to you as you followed these lawyers on this journey? >> absolutely. i mean, seeing people just giving it their all, i just, i don't want to live in a society where people have to burn out and have to sacrifice everything just to help others. i want to live in a society where we support the helpers and we fund the helpers and all of these incredible grassroots organizations and immigration lawyers and organizations doing

the work they need, they need support and that is our society. we need to do. better >> i want to ask you about the history of immigration in this country because as described in this film, the government doubled down on immigration policy after 9/11. but the truth is, the intrinsic racism in immigration in this country goes all the way back to the 1980, --1882 chinese exclusion act. so given this history and what you have learned, what do you think it will take to states see an actual overhaul of the immigration system? >> i think that it is horrific when you learn about the history and it is certainly not what i learned in school. so, i learned so much during the making of this film and i hope that the audience tonight will learn the same. but what i want to really point to is that, under, whoever is president whether it is trump or biden, it doesn't matter if our system

is broken. which it is. and so we need to go back and start at the bottom. fix the system. everybody should have a right to a lawyer and an immigration. right now not even children of that right. i think that is something we can all agree on. that we need to fix this broken system. yeah and there was this other theme of the film is just how immigration courts are essentially set up to deter migrants from coming into this country. we think of them as at least that they should be a vehicle for immigration to function. it is not the case. tell us a little bit about that, if they don't even -- stand a chance in these courts. >> absolutely. i mean, like i said, everyone, not everyone has access to a lawyer in immigration courts. i think in

this country that should have access to a lawyer. and you know, i think that like it says, like this in the film, the detention is set up to defeat people. same with the court. system so, we need to really fix these issues. and they are fixable issues. >> what is the main takeaway, if you will. you say people are going to watch this. what do you hope people take away from this documentary? >> my biggest hope is that people are moved by this film. like em and i were moved making the film and that everyone finds their own creative, unique way to make a difference in the system. whether it is voting for politicians who are for immigration reform, whether it is supporting organizations, grassroots organizations, immigration lawyers who are fighting so hard to keep families together or whether it is directly supporting the families that are fighting so hard to stay together. >> yeah, there are so much that one person can do in this country. we need all come together because the system is definitely not working the way it should be. betsy hershey, thank you so much, thank you for joining us and making this very important documentary.

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comcast business. powering possibilities. for us. watch him back on saturday's aide, sundays at night, followers on twitter, tiktok, instagram. all in a minute msnbc. >> i'm natalie morales, this is dateline.

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