♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york on state of the union day when president joe biden delivers that state of the union address to we thought it was important to remember that that address will take place in what amounts to a crime scene. for which there has yet to be accountability for many of its perpetrators. members of the mob that stormed the capitol on january 6th have been swept into the largest investigation in justice department history. more than 950 of them from all 50 states have been arrested. at least half of them have pleaded guilty to charges. on trial right now at this very moment on the rare and historically significant charge of seditious conspiracy, the right-wing militia groups, the oath keepers and the proud boys, the groups that form the tip of the spear of the mob that reached the capitol on that day, january 6, 2021.

what about the campaign staffers? attorneys, activists, officials, the members of congress who helped put into motion complex and complicated effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election and to end democracy as we know it? what about as the disgraced twice impeached ex-president himself the driving force behind the coup plot. those questions are at the heart of multiple inquiries tonight, bun run by special counsel jack smith. another in florida run by fani willis. in january, the special grand jury completed its investor to work submitting to a superior court judge based on which willis may or may not send evidence to a regular grand jury would seek criminal charges against trump or his allies. if she does that, there is every indication she might bring one of her favorite prosecutorial tools to bear, racketeering

charges, as laid out in the state's rico statute. rico is more famously used to prosecute the mafia and criminal street gangs. willis has declined to discuss that investigation outside of opaque highly disciplined statements, leaving observers searching for clues. might she work her way up the chain as rico prosecutors often do to trump himself? a braid citizen violation of state election law turn out to be his biggest legal vulnerability? is willis prepared for a national partisan fight on a scale she has never experienced? in the backdrop of those inquiries aiming to answer important as of yet unanswered questions around the ex-president's potential criminal culpability is the fact that the lies and the conspiracies that fueled the attack remain deeply embedded in our politics. from nbc news, quote, the november midterms gave election officials and pro-democracy advocates their first sigh of relief in years. the election system they had spent years defending and

shoring up operated almost seamlessly. and most of the election deniers who threatened to disrupt it were defeated. the respite, however, appears to have been brief. with the new year marked by violent, monied and high profile election denialism. advocates and secretary of state who defeated election deniers said in interviews while democracy defenders have won a key battle, the existential threat to american democracy remains, and it is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. joining us on set for the hour, alicia menendez is here, host of "american voices" right here on msnbc. michael steele is in town and at the table, former head of the rnc. we're going to turn first to congresswoman zoe lofgren of california. she is a former member of the house january 6th select committee, a current member of the judiciary committee. we're going get to your guests tonight. i know that's really important and on your mind. but today i want to start with the sanctity of the building. and i wonder what it means

tonight that the members that the committee had invited to voluntarily visit with it, when the committee existed to help illuminate how the plot to overturn donald trump's loss came to be, they didn't just defy the committee, they're now the power brokers in the house republican conference. how will that feel tonight, do you think? >> well, it doesn't feel good that my colleagues who had information that the committee needed basically blew off a subpoena that the committee sent that was duly authorized. so that is not positive. we refer that matter to the ethics committee. but it doesn't make them look particularly eager to uphold the law when they have defied it. >> when you see the republicas so focused on -- the polls are already indicating the house republican debacle, the 15, 14

votes to make mccarthy speaker, the things the public now understands he gave away to become speaker to people like matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene, upwards of 60 or 70% of americans say those are not our priorities. what is the flip side of that? what opportunity do democrats see to govern in ways that do represent the people's priorities? >> well, i think we showed a little glimpse into what we could do the past two years, passing the infrastructure bill, the inflation reduction act, the chips and science bill, which will be the greatest leap forward in terms of science and domestic manufacturing. those are important things. not all the benefits have been yet realized, although now i'm hearing from people on medicare who are grateful that their insulin costs have been capped. so there is more to do to meet the needs of the american people. these resolutions and paybacks

and petty disputes that the republican leadership is engaging in, i don't think that really is delivering, number one, what they promised. and it has really nothing to do with the lives of the american people. >> i've read some news accounts that suggest that jim jordan's subcommittee has in some ways sought to embody some of the greater accomplishments of the january 6th select committee, which is laughable on its face, of course, as they seek to politicize and exploit and attack the kinds of people who still protect our national security. but i wonder what you think of that effort as it begins, they said they will focus on hunter biden's laptop. and we've got new evidence. there is a blockbuster piece of investigative journalism that suggests the durham probe, which was an investigation into the investigators was filled with ethical complaints and a lot of friction between its own career prosecutors.

>> well, it doesn't look like mr. jordan's subcommittee is on a quest for truth. they're more on a quest for political points. i'll make you a bet, that they don't look into the durham issue. so it's pretty obvious what they're doing. i don't think it has anything to do with improving the lives of normal americans. and it's going to be kind of a circus, i fear. >> i want to pick up with where your work left off, because now it is very much in the hands of the merrick garland justice department and the special counsel he's appointed. and i just want to show you something that congressman raskin said in the final public hearing. the last we heard was really this formal handoff. the culmination and the results of all the investigative work that you all did, the public hearings you held, this is how it ended in the criminal referrals. >> the whole purpose and obvious effect of trump's scheme were to

obstruct, influence and impede this official proceeding, the central moment for the lawful transfer of power in the united states. second, we believe that there is more than sufficient evidence to refer former president donald j. trump, john eastman, and others for violating title 18, section 371. this statute makes it a crime to conspire to defraud the united states. in other words, to make an agreement to impair, obstruct, or defeat the lawful functions of the united states government by deceitful or dishonest means. third, we make the referral based on title 18, section 1001, which makes it unlufl to low noeingly and willfully make materially false statements to

the federal government. the evidence clearly suggests that president trump conspired with others to submit slates of fake electors to congress and the national archives. we believe that this evidence we set fourth in our report is more than sufficient for a criminal referral of former president donald j. trump and others in connection with this offense. >> it's only been one month since the department of justice has had access to all of the evidence that the committee marshaled. and it was -- it was volumes and volumes. but it's been over two years, right? january 6th has come and gone. it's been two years and one month. are you satisfied with what you see from the outside? or do you have any knowledge on the inside of what's going on inside doj on this? >> no, they don't report to the committee or the former members of the committee. and jamie is a good person, a good lawyer. we had a subcommittee that went through this, as you know.

all the lawyers on the committee were part of that, including myself. we also referred 18 usc 2383, incitement of insurrection along with the other two matters. but here's the issue. we believe and i think the evidence shows that president trump did engage in criminal behavior. in fact, judge clark, in the evidentiary matter with mr. eastman said that there was more reason than not to believe that they had engaged in criminal activity. but we believe that. we're not the prosecutors. the prosecutors have to compile evidence that they believe can allow this to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt before a jury. so that's i assume what they're trying to pull together. i believe, and i think most americans who believe through the evidence will see it's obvious that the ex-president did engage in this criminal behavior. whether it's something that can

be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, that's for the doj to figure out. >> do you see any indication that the political climate weighs on any one at the department of justice? >> i don't know. but mr. gar -- i think the ag is trying to go to tremendous efforts to appear and to be nonpartisan in the pursuit of justice and the administration of the law. so obviously, we're all human. we read the newspapers. we know what's going on. but i think the effort in doj is to be above the fray and to do only what they are charged to do, which is to prosecute crimes and to do so without fear or favor. >> and when you see jim jordan amping up to hold this -- i see garland the way you do. i guess my question is whether

that is political in of itself, the appearance of treating both sides equally, treating clinton's documents at mar-a-lago the same way biden's found diagnosticses and pence's. i'm not sure if that isn't also influenced by the current political climate, and i don't think that's a good thing. i'm just trying to get a sense of what the mood is inside a chamber where one party and one administration, not one party, a bipartisan committee, with two former members of congress who now are not in the body because they weren't too liberal. they were too honest. they will not be there tonight. the price of telling the truth about january 6th is that tonight joe biden will walk into a chamber with a republican speaker behind him who was so committed to power and serving trump that he stripped the speakership down of all of its meaning. it's literally just a gavel now. >> well, i think there is some truth to that. it's discouraging because, i mean, honestly, there are some of my colleagues on the other

side of the aisle that drank the kool-aid. they're true believers. >> yeah. >> they're living in a different reality. but there are plenty of smart, decent republicans who know it's all a fabrication. you can see what happened to adam and liz. you tell the truth, your head gets chopped off. so plenty of intelligent, decent republicans know what happened, know the truth, and are not speaking up. and that is discouraging. very discouraging, as much as it's unnerving that some of my colleagues are, you know, in weirdo land, really. unbelievable. >> what's more dangerous to our democracy, the people who see it as adam and liz do and say nothing or the weirdos? >> well, i think they're both a threat. that people would select somebody who is so untethered to reality to represent them in some cases is of concern. but in the end, protecting our democracy is about good people

following their oath and doing what they know is right. and for some of the republicans who know very well that this is all just false, to me, that's a concern. and these are in some cases people i like a great deal and respect, but i don't appreciate that the fear factor is so high that they can't step forward. >> there is no elegant way to make the turn. so i'm just going to ask you to tell us about your guest tonight. it is a giant in the world of science. >> absolutely. my guest is dr. tammy ma, and she is the physicist in charge of the national ignition facility experiment at lawrence livermore national lab. she is a rock star, and i'll tell you, it's easy to get discouraged about some of the things that face us, but the ignition facility got ignition in december. that is a huge breakthrough in

fusion science. and actually, what i've been advocating to the administration is it is time to double down. you know, in world war ii, whatever you think about atomic weapons, america decided they needed to develop them. and in a very short period of time, we did the manhattan project, and we did that. if we did a similar effort to fusion, we would accelerate it and have fusion energy, which is limitless and nonpolluting. so we really need to pull out all the stops and to get this research done and to get implementation, which is within our grasp. you know, the republicans and democrats don't get along on a lot of things, but one of the things we do agree on is fusion. i mean, the republicans and democrats on the appropriations committee, i'm the ranking member in the science committee and the chairman of the committee agrees just as i do that this is hugely important for our country, but also for

the world. so i'm glad that dr. ma is here to make that point. we had a briefing, a bipartisan briefing among the science committee earlier today. it's just fabulous what they've done, and even more fabulous what they can do. >> and there is a hometown pride piece of all this too. it is neat to see who comes. the guests are one of the first things we go looking for when we cover nights like this. who did everybody bring there is a hometown pride piece of all this too, right? >> well, actually, lawrence livermore lab is not in my district, never has been. >> congressman swalwell, right? >> before him, ellen tauscher. >> right. >> i've been following it. i was at the groundbreaking of the national ignition facility. it's something i have been following very closely for quite some time. and that they got ignition is hugely important scientifically and for the country. and that the two scientists involved, the lab director kim

and the science director for nif are both women, both physicists. i hope will be an inspiration to young women around the country that they can have a future in physics as well. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, who manages to have these spinning plates talking about threats to our democracy and all of our future. thank you so much congressman lofgren for starting us off. take care. >> thank you. >> bringing in alycia and michael. ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to president obama. i am curious about what the answer is who is more dangerous to democracy, right? the ones who sit and see january 6th and the ascendance of matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene and the guy that wore the kevlar vest and all these yahoos, or the people who see it as we see it and say nothing? >> for me, it's the ones who say

nothing. that silence is deadly, because what it connotes is acquiescence and approval. we can go at various points in our history and look back at leaders who stood up in the moment and said sit down, we're not doing that. the most recent example of course is john mccain in 2008. when all the hoopla was sort of fermenting and frothing around barack obama and his pedigree and his family and his history, his lineage, and he wanted to say to the country that's not who we are, sit down. >> he said the woman, no, you're wrong. he loves this country. >> and he took on his base. >> literally. >> literally. and he took on the voices within the party that were trying to sow that seed and ferment it even further. so for me, the danger to democracy are not those who are

imbibing in conspiracy. it is those who are letting them drive the country, right? those who get lett them get behind the wheel after imbibing this insidiousness and this ugliness and this hatred and try to drive the country off the road. so i think that's for me the focus in this moment. and i think it's an important focus for the president. as well. >> explain. >> well, i get the politics. and you don't want to, you know, step on someone's corn. but sometimes to get their attention, you do. you want to step on that spot that's sensitive and difficult. and i think the president maybe not in this moment because of the nature of this event, but i think coming out of this moment tonight has an opportunity to really step on the toes of the gop. >> see, i totally disagree. you put together a show. we had a call early this morning. the previous state of the union, it is not a normal state of the union. >> it's not. >> a president is walking into a chamber with a new republican

leader who has handed the key of the car to the coup plotters. this is not a normal moment. >> but he is not going to do that tonight. you and i know that. >> let's see what he does. >> i would bet a hamburger he's not doing that tonight. and it's because of the man himself. it's the way he sees the office and the moment. i personally think we should do away with the moment, sent the letter to the hill like they did before the 1950s and call it a day. and then go out and do the politics. but okay, set that aside. i agree with you. if it were me or any other individual, i'm sure you want to step to the guy behind you and go i got something for you. but that's not who he is. so i acknowledge that but i think on the other side of that, when he gets into that presidential reelection mode, that's an opportunity to kind of bring all that together. but we'll seattle. >> alycia? >> my brain went where yours went, which is we are still living sort of the hangover of the trump era, the fact that

mike kevin is going to be sitting behind the president of the united states. the fact that you have sarah huckabee sanders giving the republican response, which granted may make her a sacrificial lamb given how these things have gone in the past. but still, she the one that they are choosing not to say we have moved on. >> correct. >> they are choosing to say this is still who we are. and that to me is more devastating than anything she actually says. >> i think knowing joe biden, he is going to try to draw the contrast kind of implicitly. so what -- and i pad had to work on eight state of the unions. they're not fun to right. they're kind of committee drafts. but it is your one chance of the year to have a big audience. and not so much to speak to people who are in the chamber, but to speak to people out of n the country. here's my vision. what i think he is going to do is be optimistic, be talking about the things he accomplished, all the things we can get done. and kind of put it on the american people to draw the

implicit contrast. this guy is focused on things i actually care about, whether it's capping the price of insulin, bringing down health care costs, getting an infrastructure bill, and these republicans over here are crazy and yelling about laptops and investigations. i only think that gets you so far, nicolle. my own experience with this is when we had a less crazy version, but still a fairly crazy version of a republican majority takeover after 2010, president obama tried really hard to get something done and make a deal with john boehner. and where the rubber hits the road is on things like the debt ceiling, because then it is no longer a game. it's no longer what you can scream on fox news. you're putting at risk people's livelihoods. >> and they know it. >> and they know it. so what happened with us, it was after that scare when we came very close. he came out, and he drew the contrast. and you'll remember he gave address to congress on his jobs bill and the next state of the union. and everything until the state of election was a contrast. and joe biden is the once who said, and often says don't

compare me to the almighty. compare me to the alternative. he is going to have to at some point whether it's tonight or going forward draw that contrast, and not just hope that the american people get it, or this guy is optimistic, he is trying to solve problems, he is going to have to say "and they're not, and here's why." >> when we come back, we'll talk more about the state of the union tonight and what comes after it. later in the program, the former prosecutor who has pored through every last detail of donald trump's finances spoke with dozens of insiders. he paints a very stark picture of donald trump's potential criminality. mark pomerantz will join us on the dangers of letting crimes committed by powerful people go unchecked and unanswered for. we'll talk to him about his new book. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. ls. dogs have been such an important part of my life. i have flinn and a new puppy. as i was writing, i found that i just wasn't as sharp and i new i needed to do something

so i started taking prevagen. i realized that i was much more clear and i was remembering the details that i was supposed to. prevagen keeps my brain working right. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.

pst. girl. you can do better. whose resumes on indeed ma at least with youria. big-name wireless carrier. with xfinity mobile you can get unlimited for $30 per month on the nation's most reliable 5g network. they can even save you hundreds a year on your wireless bill over t-mobile, at&t, and verizon. wow. i can do better! -yes you can! i can do better, too! see how easy it is to save hundreds a year on your wireless bill over t-mobile, verizon, and at&t. talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today.

with powerful, easy-to-use tools power e*trade makes complex trading easier react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity there's a story in every piece of land. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story.

having been a communications person, i love new words. get ready. we're going hear this one a few times tonight. the phrase "finish the job." we understand from a white house official that president joe biden plans on making that phrase "finish the job" a central theme of his state of the union address tonight. specifically, he wants to finish the job he started when he launched his 2020 campaign. big transformational things, stuff like elevating the middle class, restoring the soul of the nation, as he so often says, and trying to unite the country. last item, though, very clearly is easier said than done. the president's address tonight will be his first delivered to a divided congress. after all, elected republicans haven't exactly been discreet about their appetite for broad

political vengeance. they're in charge of house oversight now. guess how that committee is spending its time tomorrow? they're having a hearing having to do with the president's son, hunter biden. and that's just the beginning for them. we've got at least two more years of this. and in that way, tonight's state of the union is an on-ramp to a highway that leads directly, as ben's been discussing, to the 2024 presidential contest. lucky for us, alycia, michael and ben are all back. this is the point you're making, right? this in some ways begins president biden's efforts in messaging, a conversation with the country about his own reelection. >> that's exactly right. we are entering that cycle. and the reality is we're also entering a psych wrinkle they're not going to be able to pass big ticket items through congress. so what he knows is he is going to be running in 2024, largely on things that he's already done. on the inflation reduction act. >> that's right. or crises he averts. >> or how he is managing foreign policy, which is a real issue now. but the thing going for them is

a lot of these laws haven't come online, like the infrastructure projects are just getting -- beginning to be done. all the climate money and clean energy money and inflation reduction act, that's just going to be spent. what he has to cast that as a living agenda that his government is implementing. our tag line was win the future and then it was forward and it was all about the ones we're trying move this forward and these guys want to fight about things in the past. i think you're going to see a very similar dynamic here, but exacerbated by the fact this is an even crazier and more extreme version of the republican caucus. so what he has to do, he has to make a case for people that the things he has already done and the work he is going to do in implementing that is about moving things forward and addressing things in people's lives. and the only way you can mess that up and derail that progress is if you give the keys literally to these crazy people. >> that is very much what minority leader kim jeffreys had on his mind. let me show you that. >> and i think president biden

tonight and democrats as we move forward, particularly as we implement these historic compliments are going to be in conversation with the american people about the fact that democrats have delivered meaningful change and progress for everyday americans in a multitude of ways. a lot has been accomplished. in some ways, it's an abundance of riches that we are now responsible to communicate effectively to everyday americans that democrats have delivered. and perhaps most importantly, we will continue to deliver. >> can note fault them for not all being on message today. >> very on message. and this is why you have the president, the vice president hitting the road tomorrow. they're going to -- with the cabinet, 20 american city, continue to have this conversation regionally. i do take ben's point that there is not a lot of room here for legislative wins. which is why i think it's interesting that the president is purported tonight to be

pushing a universal cap on the price of insulin. i know from watching the midterms, that ended up being a really successful issue for them. you saw it in a lot of campaign ads during the midterms. because it became a proxy for who has got your back. >> right. >> who understands what the actual cost of living is right now in the united states, and who's doing something about it and who, in this case, republicans, are beating back what could be progress. that i think is something where even though he might not be able to get it done, he's essentially challenging republicans to a game of chicken which is are you going to bring this to the floor for a vote or are you not? because either way, it draws a sharp contrast between where we are and where you are. >> it is the new "do you know the price of milk?" it's also his i see you, i know what's going on in your life. if you're up at night worried about hunter biden's laptop, we

know what you're watching. and you're not a voter i'm talking to in the next two years. >> this is the difference between finish the job, right, and finish him off, because that's what we're talking about. this is the political dynamic at play starting tonight for the next 18 months. it is the president saying setting up to ben's point, setting up the reelection argument, the narrative, and saying we're prepared to finish the job. i looked at going back to 2019, 2020. looked at president biden as a transitional president. someone who would be in a position to transition the country off of the maga crack, right. put us in detox. help us get through the various narratives. not even aware of what would come with january 6th at that time, right? so you see the president in a position to sort of further that conversation in a way that only he, in my view, can do. he is grandpa.

he is the friend next door. he is the guy in the neighborhood who has his eye on all the stuff that is going on and has a sense of how the neighborhood is changing. so you'll see that. then the finish him off piece is what the republican house is about. this is about we're here to do the great takedown. starting with your son and working our way up. so we're going to -- >> it's so ludicrous, because not even the right wing media has found any connective tissue. >> it's all connective tissue. this is all political bs. and we know that. the question, though, is how are americans receiving these two messages? because what have we seen in the recent polling? just coming out yesterday, 62% of the country doesn't think the man, the president has done anything for them, or that these things that both of you just laid out are effective and working, when in fact they are. and they have been. so this is going to be i think to the point about that alicia

made about the president going out starting tomorrow, the vice president going out tomorrow, cabinet officials, everyone touching the country as these projects come online, saying you did this. by electing us, you did this. right? and i think that can be a very salient message up against -- well, the only thing we want to do is take out his son. >> i think that's where the bipartisanship isn't something that should be exasperating to democrats. the bipartisanship is look how popular my stuff is. i can't get mitch off air force one. mitch wants to go with him to sell the infrastructure plan because mitch's guy donald couldn't get it done. >> exactly. so mitch, he isn't stupid. all right, mr. president, you come to kentucky and we'll have a good day. he is sitting out there, he is doing the little strategicry as

well. i also know on the other side, i can help frame a conversation to help protect my senate efforts going forward. so i'm not going to be tagged to the crazy in the house. we can say oh, we invited the president of kentucky. we worked together on these things. but, right. that's a legitimate political discussion. what the house is saying is there's only one goal. and there is only one end to this, and that is taking down the president, taking down his son by any means necessary. so you're going see within the party this sort of tension around that. and i think joe biden has the potential to sort of move above that. again, when you're talking about finishing the job versus finishing him off, i think he has the greater card to play here. >> ben, i've become so cynical that i think the most -- if i were to write a book, it would be about michelle obama's statement when they go low we go high. whether that works, whether we live in a country that still has a high road whether michelle obama is on it because she is so good and decent.

but to milo's point, are we still a country that has somewhere for joe biden to go if he goes above the fray? >> i think that the midterm elections showed us that we do. we are that country. but there is an important aspect of this that goes jobbed on joe biden getting out there and the administration getting out there and selling accomplishments. that's important. but let's be honest about what really made a difference in that election. the more the voters saw of the crazy people, the less they wanted -- >> kari lake. >> dr. oz, right. >> those people defeated themselves. so what they have to do from a messaging standpoint is on the one hand, they have to be out there delivering their message. but when inevitably you have republicans overreach in a particularly crazy way, they need to spine the biggest possible spotlight on that and say look at what these people are doing. it has nothing to do with you. it has nothing to do with your insulin costs, nothing to do with the problems in your life. all the people care about themselves and these crazy things. they're dangerous. they have to find a which to tap

into what we learn in this midterm election, which is there is a bottom for a lot of americans. the people who are at home watching youtube videos about hunter biden's laptop, those people are not going to listen to that message. but we learned there really is a swing voter out there who yes, wants to hear what joe biden is delivering, but also, you need to kind of point them to the fact that these people are really dangerous. they're really irresponsible. and you have to hang that on the republicans. it's not going happen itself. so it is going to demand contrast for them over time here. >> but you're going to have to be careful. the careful spot is republicans, if we don't do anything, we learn. like elephants, we don't forget. and we know the mistakes of this last election. and trust me you're, not going to have a whole lot of kari lakes and dr. ozs swinging from the political poles in this cycle. you're going to see grounded, well articulated cleaned up crazy people. >> kari lake is waiting for her victory rally.

>> keep running, kari. keep running. >> it was already a harder amount for democrats. >> particularly in the senate. so that's where the mitch mcconnell piece comes into place here. he knows how to work that landscape, and he is going to have a greater say in candidate recruitment than i think a lot of people may realize. >> all right. we -- i don't know if that's depressing or simply -- >> it is what it is. >> it's devious. it's devious, as many of mitch mcconnell's tricks are. when we come back, how one of the president's closest advisers sees all this. the political landscape ahead of tonight's speech, and everything that comes after tonight. we have a chance to talk to a member of his team, next. don't go anywhere. nywhere. u lo v. now take away their clean clothes and access to water. take away the roof over their heads, most meals and all snacks. look at what's left.

millions of children are struggling to survive due to inequality, the climate crisis, conflict, and poverty. children deserve better. and luckily save the children has a way you can help. team tomorrow is a movement that addresses urgent issues all over the world and right here at home. you can help create positive, irreversible change for children today. to join our team, call now or go to jointeamtomorrow.org and make a $10 monthly donation. your contribution will help improve the lives of children and families around the world. and you'll receive updates on how your support is tackling the issues you care about most. where i grew up, i see children suffering from poverty. and i've seen that when we work together, we can make a difference. for only $10 a month, you can help bring nutritious meals

to kids living in rural areas, protect children from dangerous living conditions, provide access to clean water, and much more. and thanks to generous government grants. every dollar you give can multiply up to 10 times the impact. and for a limited time, when you make a $10 monthly donation, you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. if you believe children deserve a better tomorrow, start here. call or go online and start changing lives today.

still ahead for us, we will be joined by the author of this book. it is a veteran prosecutor named mark pomerantz. he has an incredible story to tell. how he spent a good part of a year looking through donald trump's financial documents, examining his business empire, and found that it was, as he writes, built on lies. he writes how he believes he could have built a criminal case against donald trump. we'll talk to him about why so far that hasn't happened from his old office. but first, it is a busy hour at the joe biden white house. with just hours to go. i always envision the scene from "american president."

lewis we have a new speech to write! biden delivers the state of the union address. president joe biden's deputy white house chief of staff joins us to discuss it. so jenna, i do have this vision that when the balloon got blown up, president biden said to his team, lewis, i need a new speech! will that feature prominently? and as helene cooper admonished me yesterday, this is a serious story about china's brazenness. is there a new china section? >> fortunately we're not here writing a new speech today and tonight, though "american president" someone of my favorite. i will say as you can expect, from the president who has more foreign policy experience than any president before him, of course he is going to be talking about foreign policy in the state of the union. of course he is going to be talking about managing our strategic relationship with china, moving from conflict to competition. of course he is going to talk about the conflict in ukraine. so you can expect to hear that from him. and no doubt we'll talk about what's taken place over the course of the last several days. but you'll hear from the

president tonight, quintessential joe biden from start to finish. >> how much of this speech puts in the public's mind that he is standing at a place that two years ago was threatened by the last president? >> oh, absolutely. look, i think the president has talked about this so many times as he has taken office and even before then about the importance of democracy and leadership in this country. but also, the importance of talking about what we've been able to get to work for the american people and deliver for. both on key legislative accomplishments. but also, working across the isle. that was something that was so critical to the president, his whole career. but certainly, when he ran for office in the first place. and as he has taken office, this idea, as he talked about in the last state of the union, that there are ways we can come together. and people, some people didn't believe that but i think we proved that, whether it was shipping and manufacturing, infrastructure, gun law,

benefits for veterans. that there is an opportunity to lead forward and show a vision both of progress, but also of work that we have ahead, that we have to finish the job. you'll hear that from the president. but also, this belief the government can work and deliver for the american people. i think that's significant and who the president is and how he hazy led so far. >> i always call it mom shade. moms are at work or ordering groceries in the break, we're in a meeting and we have the extra brain bandwidths to order the uniform ahead of the saturday game. but none of it gets much credit. nobody -- moms' approval ratings don't go up because everything functions. you kind of have a white house like that, right? it really barely did under the last guy. and you don't see a reflection or appreciation. how do you turn it so that some of what is suddenly working and really wasn't that functional under president biden's predecessor is something the public gives him credit for?

>> well, i could talk about my mom rating all day, but we'll do that a show. >> we had yelp ratings, we could stack 'em, five stars for getting dinner on the table. but there is a piece of this white house that i feel like falls into the same trap. where just because everything works, we've forgotten so quickly what it's like to have someone who doesn't given a you know what if anything works. >> well, exactly. and i think we saw last november that the american people did not want extreme. they wanted stability and leadership. and they wanted to get things done. and they also know that there is more work to be done. i think part of what the president will do tonight, if we were here right now he would say our job is to tell the story of what's possible of the progress that's been made and how that actually impacts people's lives. obviously a lot of this historic legislation has passed. it's truly significant. we talk about big numbers, the 12 million jobs created, 800,000 manufacturing jobs.

but what matters to and even more so is what those jobs are in a community, in a neighborhood, and in family. and how we go out there and tell that. and tell that real story. so this is the start of that. the president, the vice president, the cabinet, they're going to be fanning out, crisscrossing the country over the next ten days. you've certainly already seen that throughout the early part of this year as the president's travel to tunnels and bridges. that isn't just about big infrastructure and a lot of resources. it's about how that impacts small businesses and the communities and makes people's lives better. and that's a progress and an optimism you're going hear from the president. but one of investing in this country and really making that real for people. >> jen o'malley dillon, we will talk offline about the mom pr. i feel like we could go international with it. thank you very much for spending some time to talk to us today. there is this -- i used to always ask ron klain about this, the rodney dangerfield white house or economy where you have

good indicators, but there is such a fixation on the bad news headlines. and of course every white house. there is whole lot of bad news headlines. what do they do to turn that around? >> i don't know they can do anything beyond that except to draw a sharp contrast between themselves and republicans to make sure that the legislation they have already passed actually is implemented, that the american people know about it. i thought it was interesting that in their rhetorical frame, there were two pieces there was the deliver piece, which i think we've talked about a lot, but there was also the defend piece, which to me is sort of much headier. but gets to everything we care about democracy, about rights. we are defending an american way of life, which i think is especially interesting, because you'll hear republicans talking about defense in talk about defending the border, defending the balloon. >> they don't care about

ukraine. >> so to step back and say we are on a path forward. do you want to continue on a path forward and defend the way of life that we have made? i think it's smart. >> i think they have to -- i think they have to clarify the path. >> yeah. >> for the american people. because the polling is showing there is still this disconnect, and the american people don't know that we are really on that path. once they do that, and maybe tonight that's the beginning of that. i think that clarifying moment for the country will be good. >> it is amazing. i mean, messaging to the country about the things that have gone well is, you know, hitting single after single after single. it's like baseball. you go out every night. you to do the same thing over and over, or to your point, for next two years. all right. still to come for

the situation in turkey and syria continues to worsen after those countries were devastated by a series of earthquakes. more than 7500 people have died, more than 26,000 people injured. authorities are saying 13.5 million people have been affected. hundreds of aftershocks have complicated search and rescue efforts, although 8,000 people have been rescued already. it has been all hands on deck to

rescue those still trapped in the rubble. here in aleppo, a man digs out a child buried under the debris from a collapsed building. the situation could agree even more dire. over a quarter of the provinces in turkey are today under warnings for heavy snow. let's bring in matt bradley, who has been live for us all day long in turkey. i've been watching your reporting. the scale of human tragedy is just unimaginable. tell me what you have learned. >> reporter: yeah, as you can see behind me, there has been quite a rescue effort going on all day long. we got here early in the afternoon. that's when we saw hundreds of people, most of them just volunteers from around the neighborhood. a lot of them standing on top of this massive mound. this used to be a multistory, 16-story residential building that just collapsed, leaving most of the buildings around

here almost entirely in tact. now, we saw hundreds of people from the neighborhood clawing, trying to get into the debris, many using their bare hands. it wasn't until later in the afternoon that we started to see more really professional rescue workers come here. they asked a lot of the people here to leave, and they have been making more of a dent here. but that was about 24 hours after the second, sort of the after shock that we saw of those two twin seismic shifts that happened just on monday. so, you know, this was kind of delayed. that really speaks to what we have been hearing a lot from this region, that rescue workers are very much overwhelmed. finally, they did bring in those rescue workers. we also saw our first foreign team of 70 countries that are donating aid or bringing in rescue workers. it was a bulgarian team. when they showed up, they

insisted that everybody be quiet. some people kneeled down, and then they brought out sophisticated sonar equipment that would allow them to try to hear what was going on underneath the rubble. we haven't seen anyone being brought out alive since we got here, but there has been a nurry of activity -- flurry of activity. it looks as though they may have found at least one dead person here. >> matt bradley, thank you for being our eyes and ears there. thank you for your reporting. my thanks to all of you for being here at the table. so fun to have all of you here. thank you. i'll see you again next hour. up next for us, the former new york prosecutor will be here. why he believes there still may be a criminal case to be made against donald trump. riminal ca against donald trump sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression

feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let the light shine through. and light tomorrow, with the hope from today. this is a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is a once-daily pill that is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i and ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta today. find savings and support at caplyta.com. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

now, there's skyrizi. ♪♪ with skyrizi, most people who achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months... had lasting clearance through 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections, or a lower ability to fight them, may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. chevy silverado factory-lifted trucks. where will they take you? with the capability of a 2-inch lift. ♪♪ the versatility of the available multi-flex tailgate. ♪♪ and the connection of a 13.4” diagonal touchscreen. chevy silverado. taking adventure to a whole new level.

hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. viewers of this program know we have a particular focus on the so far unsuccessful efforts at holding donald j. trump accountable for what has repeatedly been described to us, the public, as criminality. we have probed what it means to be granted the authority by appointment or by the power of the office one holds to examine donald trump's conduct in ways that we the people can't. what does it mean to be given the awesome responsibility of investigating a sitting or former president and being our

eyes and ears on that? what is it like to answer questions of whether the country's leader, former leader, has committed crimes, and then weigh in on what to do if the answer is yes, he has? former fbi director robert mueller took on this awesome responsibility, and he came back after 23 months and said this. watch. >> if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. >> i'm still processing that. countries all too aware of what happened after that. from a criminal justice perspective, it is important on what trump did after that moment. so the moment mueller announced that, he testified before congress, trump thought to extort president zelenskyy of ukraine. he abused the office of the american presidency. now, about this, even republicans don't dispute the facts. but trump once again escaped

accountability because of our country's polarized politics. >> the great question the constitution tasks senators to answer is whether the president chitted an act so extreme and egregious that it rises to the level of a high cream and misdemeanor. yes, he did. >> so, again, you all know what happened next for the country. importantly, what did trump do after that? what did that lack of accountability, the lack of consequences mean in terms of how trump decided to behave? and what did his behavior mean for the rest of us? well, so trump goes on and does what a majority of bad actors do when faced with zero consequences for the behavior. trump, who must by this point really believe that he's operating above the law, clinging to power illegally, even when it involves endangering the life and safety

of his own vice president and doing harm to our democracy. watch. >> if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. >> so our next guest didn't investigate any of these sorted chapters in u.s. history, but he did spend months examining trump's finances and interviewing former trump insiders, and came to the same conclusion as many of the other investigators who came before him. stigators who came before him. >> the author of that passage is the author of "people versus donald trump," his name is mark pomerantz. in his 70s, happily retired, newly appreciative of life's

gifts after enjoying a cancer scare. then the district attorney of manhattan called and enlisted mark pomerantz to help with the investigation into donald trump. he said yes and would take on a larger and larger role in that probe and ultimately, one of the things he came up with was an idea, theory for an enterprise prosecution. he writes about it in the book -- >> and of the narrative that dominates many such conversations, we've had on this show for seven years now, about

holding the powerful accountable under the law, the same way us ordinary folks are held accountable. mark pomerantz introduces us to a new term of art -- >> the author of those passages from his new book is our guest this hour. mark pomerantz, thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. it's really a thrill to be here speaking with you. >> so, i finished this book, and i have covered all these investigations into trump, and i

thought, here it is, the one guy who looked at him, said what mueller says, was prepared to take all those risks and bring a case. tell me what happens after you reach that conclusion. >> well, we spent a long time investigating, a long time at the end of cy vance's term huddling about what we had and what it meant. it was unfortunate we couldn't reach a final decision and bring a case before the end of cy vance's term. but there was just too much to do. it was a large undertaking. a lot of evidence, a lot of facts. and so we didn't finish. we teed it up for the incoming district attorney after vance had made the decision to go forward with the prosecution, and the incoming district attorney, as was his right, made a different decision. it was a decision not to go forward with the case. it was a decision that i thought

was profoundly contrary to the public interest, and at that point, i had a kind of personal decision to make, do i keep my mouth shut, go about my business, or do i speak out and i decided ultimately that i had a moral obligation to speak out because it's important. whether you like him or not, donald trump is one of the central public figures of our time. if he committed crimes and he's not been held accountable for those crimes, that's an important item of public business. it is hugely in the public interest to understand somewhat happened. and so i decided to ultimately release the letter i wrote when i resigned, and to write the book that i have written. in terms of what happened, it's

a little bit hard to say, as i mentioned in the book. we didn't have kind of a closing session to discuss what the decision was and why it was made. so that's not a question that i can answer with complete authority. but what i believe may have happened, and i've seen this before, is that in cases with extremely high stakes, particularly in cases with extremely high stakes and somebody who has a well-deserved reputation for intimidation who makes decisions as difficult as possible, the temptation is to proceed only if you are certain you are going to win, you have a slam dunk case, you have compelling reasons to proceed. and what that does, in effect, is create a double standard. because that's not the standard

we use when we are dealing with whether to charge, as i put it in the book, joe blow from kokomo. you always have to be careful. it's an important, sensitive business. but you can't let concern over the repercussions, the high stakes, the desire to make sure that you have assembled a case that will certainly win, you can't allow that to paralyze you. i don't know whether that's what happened. it may have been what happened. but what i do know is that by the standards that, over years in practice on both sides i saw applied to prosecutor decisions, this was a case that should have been brought. >> when i read the -- you take us to this point where this double standard is amied to a case because of who was under investigation, and it's trump.

i shot up in bed, because a refrain that is uttered on my show every day is, if you're going to shoot the king, you have to get up and kill him. that refrain is accepted, because the people who were seeing our officials at the justice department know better than i do how current senior officials at the justice department think, and it is the most clear evidence of two standards of justice in america. it is the closest anyone has come to helping me understand why no one has sought to hold trump accountable. >> you know, it's been written about. i read an editorial that indicated, yes, if you shoot for the king, you need to kill him. and indeed, the standard that ought to be applied with respect to donald trump is not the customary standard, but a standard of proof so high as this author, writer put it. it would convince even fair-minded republicans and not just the anchors of shows on

msnbc and cnn. and when i read that, i thought to myself why is there a different standard of proof for the king? you know, we have all heard, and i heard as prosecutors, it's one standard for prince and pauper. equal justice under law. the judge for whom i clarked at the very beginning of my legal career used to tell jurors in every single criminal case, all parties stand as equal before the bar of justice. i took that in, and i believe that's the way to make decisions in criminal cases. if indeed it is the case that a higher standard applies to some people because of their influence, their power, that's not a good thing. and it's something we need to think about and wonder about. >> so i want to work backward from where you just explained,

and i want to understand what is also clear from reading this is that it would have taken a lot of time to actually understand the evidence, as you understood it in the transition from cy vance to alvin bragg. did alvin bragg take the time to understand the evidence you had marshalled? >> he -- he was prepared to spend the time. indeed, at one point he said we can meet every day if you think that's appropriate. but honestly, it's very hard to communicate what happened in these financial statements. you know, the financial statements spanned years. there were dozens of assets. the techniques that were used to overvalue those assets differ from asset to asset, year to year. so it was mine bogglingly complicated to lay all of that evidence out, and to understand it. and that was really the guts of the case.

if you didn't understand what happened with the financial statements, it's hard to assess how intentional this conduct was and who was responsible for it. when the attorney general of the state of new york brought a complaint, it took over 200 pages to lay out the evidence. if we had gone to trial, it would take a prosecution case of several months to lay out the evidence. so as i reflected on what happened, i have wondered to myself whether the incoming team understood the complexities of the evidence in all of the detail. and that's not a knock on them. >> no, no. >> it was -- it was fiendishly complicated. i had spent months, you know, what started as wondering whether -- how much time am i going to have to spend on this? by the end of my time, i was

working nights, days, weekends, holidays. it was just around the clock. >> interrupted by one or two dog walks. >> occasionally, yes. so it was a lot of work, it was a lot only complexity. it's hard stuff to communicate. and i have wondered whether part of the reason we reached different conclusions is that the complexity of the case, the amount of time it would take to master it. but i'm not suggesting that anybody gave the facts the back of the hand. it's just hard to dive into the case and understand all the complexities. >> so, one counterpoint to that might be that you made clear in your book that you leaved tish james' office did just that. is that larger office, a higher

priority, why do you think they were able to throw the energy into diving into the evidence? >> they started earlier. one of the problems we had is we couldn't get his tax records or his accounting records until serving grand jury subpoena and having the subpoena litigated up to the supreme court of the united states twice. so it was litigated at district court, the court of appeals, the supreme court, back to the district court, back to the court of appeals, back to the supreme court. so by the time we got the accounting records that were necessary to study how the financial statements were prepared, a lot of time had gone by, and one of the things we discovered early in my work on the case was that the new york attorney general had been into the financial statements, and into the accounting backup going

back 18 months at least before we started. and to this day, i'm not certain how they were able to get the accounting records that we had to fight a huge legal battle to get it. but to their credit, they got the records and were doing the work. we had call after call where they laid out for us what they had seen in the accounting records and why they understood that certain valuations were false. over time, we caught up. i'm even happy to say there were a few facts that we brought to their attention. but they did have a head start. it's a tribute to that office that they got as far as they got and assembled the evidence they assembled, which was an overwhelming quantum of evidence. one that when the state supreme

court judge reviewed the allegations of the complaint, said that the facts that are laid out in the complaint paint a picture of persistent fraud. >> which is the conclusion that i believe you reached as well, right? >> it is the conclusion that i reached. i say "i." >> your team. >> my team. >> what do we make as a public that two offices working collaboratively -- it's an extraordinary story about collaboration -- looking at the same evidence, and i understand about the civil proceeding with different burdens of proof, that bragg abandons that case while tish james pursues it. >> well, some of it is different burdens of proof. in civil case, the attorney general also had the advantage of being able to draw an inference from the fact that

donald trump and others in the trump organization asserted their 5th amendment rights over 100 times. although that hadn't happened at the time with the incoming district attorney made his decision. but lawyers do differ, and it's a good question. i'm not sure i can really address the kind of disconnect between how the case was seen in the attorney general's office and how it ultimately was seen in the district attorney's office. >> to wind through the book is to watch you get to know michael cohen. he's one of the witnesses. we as a show has gotten to know michael cohen. he's one of the people we turn to in terms of understanding things. the attorney general james gives a shoutout in announcing her lawsuit. you have some incredible anecdotes for michael cohen as a witness that puts trump on top

of the conspiracy to defraud. trump in the oval office of committing the crime of writing hush money checks. why have there been no consequences for that? >> federally, i can't answer that question. i am at a loss to understand what happened at the conclusion of the hush money investigation. or for that matter, why there was no federal investigation of trump's business finances, his tax returns, his financial statements. when "the new york times" came out with its long series on trump's taxes in october 2020, i asked the question, and i said, well, gee, this is going to prompt a federal investigation. i don't know why it didn't. it may be that they were deferring to the d.a.'s investigation. but that's total speculation. it's unfortunate.

because as i do write in the book, federal substantive law, federal procedural law, federal resources, were really better suited to bring -- to conduct an investigation like this one and to bring the prosecution. that's not a knock on the district attorney's office. they are capable, dedicated people. but we have different legal tools. now, having said that, with the legal tools that we had, i thought we had enough on the legal side and on the factual side to bring the case that we wanted to bring, and it's unfortunate in my judgment that it wasn't pursued. >> we need to go to break. but i want to ask you, again, kind of working backward, the first 106 pages are about some of the challenges of bringing a state case around hush money, because of the election laws being federal crimes. i haven't been to law school, but i feel like by the end of

the trump era, i can play a lawyer on tv. i want to keep pushing backward and ask you to help us understand what that might mean. michael cohen has been back down to talk to someone in that office. and i know you have a lot of -- i'm going to read from the book a little bit too if you'll stay with us. we'll be right back with mark pomerantz. don't go anywhere. ht back with pomerantz. don't go anywhere.

lomita feed is 101 years old this year and counting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com. hey, man. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need.

♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ this feels so right... ♪ adt systems now feature google products like the nest cam with floodlight, with intelligent alerts when a person or familiar face is detected. sam. sophie's not here tonight. so you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt. as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network. with no line activation fees or term contracts. saving you up to 60% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities.

having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000, i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> so they funneled it through the law firm? >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know that he did. did you know that the president didn't know about this? >> he didn't know about the specifics of it as far as i know, but he knew about the general arrangement that michael could take care of things like this. >> he directed the general arrangement that michael could take care of things. it goes straight to the question of accountability. our guest, mark pomerantz, has written about -- i was reminded

through your writing, and this is so clear, and i want to read it to our audience. this is what the hush money scheme was. michael cohen and mr. davidson agreed to concoct a written settlement between david dennison and peggy peterson. who is that? >> dave dennison was the pseudonym for donald trump and peggy peterson was stormy daniels. >> okay. in exchange for payment of $130,000 for a company called essential consultants. that would release her claims against dennison and agree not to disclose her claims to anyone. o anyone

>> now, seems like rudy googled the federal finance laws that night after cocktails and before leave tv, and is trying to carve out where the money came from. but that's no really the point, right? the federal -- and i know this wasn't -- the federal -- that is a violation of -- >> violation of federal campaign finance laws. paying hush money is not a crime under fed rar or state law. so the crime we were looking at, as a state prosecutor, has no jurisdiction to bring federal election law violations. the state crime we were looking at had to do with the falsification of business records relating to the hush money. when michael cohen was reimbursed, which, as donald trump, through his attorney, ultimately admitted they knew

about, had blessed and arranged, when cohen was reimbursed, he didn't get a check that said for hush money to michael cohen. signed donald j. trump. that would not have been a false business record. no crime would have been committed. what he got was a series of checks, supposedly in satisfaction of monthly invoices that cohen wrote, submitted to the trump organization for "legal expenses pursuant to retainer agreement." except there was no retainer agreement. these weren't legal expenses. and there certainly were no monthly services rendered. so the reimbursement arrangement involved falsification.

test.

moving forward with node- positive breast cancer is overwhelming. but i never just found my way; i made it. and did all i could to prevent recurrence. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence of hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning,... as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. hormone therapy works outside the cell... ...while verzenio works inside to help stop the growth of cancer cells. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an anti-diarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur.

tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble breathing, cough, or chest pain. serious liver problems can happen. symptoms include fatigue, appetite loss, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising. blood clots that can lead to death have occurred. tell your doctor if you have pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain, and rapid breathing or heart rate, or if you are nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. i'm making my own way forward. ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. (vo) give your business an advantage right now, with nationwide 5g from t-mobile for business. ask your doctor about unlock new insights and efficiency, with leading ultra-capacity 5g coverage. t-mobile for business has 5g that's ready right now. step up. prep up. to help keep you free from the risk of hiv. descovy for prep, the smallest prep pill available, is a once-daily prescription medicine that helps lower the chances

of getting hiv through sex. it's not for everyone. descovy for prep has not been studied in people assigned female at birth. talk to your doctor to find out if it's right for you. descovy is another way to prep. descovy does not prevent other sexually transmitted infections, so it's important to use safer sex practices and get tested regularly. you must be hiv-negative to take descovy for prep. so, you need to get tested for hiv immediately before and at least every 3 months while taking it. if you think you were exposed to hiv or have flu-like symptoms, tell your doctor right away. they may check to confirm you are still hiv-negative. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. the most common side effect was diarrhea. tell your doctor about all the medicines and supplements you take, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b, do not stop taking descovy without talking to your doctor. ask your doctor if descovy for prep is right for you. get help paying for descovy for prep. learn more at descovy.com. get help paying for descovy for prep. when a truck hit my car, the insurance company wasn't fair. i didid't t kn whahatmy c caswa, so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k

how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou i was hit by a car get t tand needed help.oiblele. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehi called the barnes firm. that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is let our injury attorneys know he how much their accident cget the best result possible.

need to be submitted each year to banks that had extended financing on trump's policies.

trump would dispatch cohn to support the network figure trump wanted to show. in other words, the asset values were reengineered. this is why his financial statement showed steady growth. trump decided arbitrarily what he wanted his net worth to be. at one point, his growing number became so inflated that weisselberg warned him he was creating a large potential estate tax liability. upon his death, the authorities could demand taxes kai mens rate with the net worth. according to cohn, trump responded by telling weisselberg, quote, i don't care, i'll be dead and the kids will have to fend for themselves, end quote. what a good dad. this evidence pile you're careful not to totally lay out seems like such clear evidence of criminality. are you confident that a criminal case against trump for the business records will

eventually be brought? >> i don't know whether it will be brought. i'm confident that it was there to bring. whether it will be brought is up to the district attorney and i can't say one way or the other. i hope it is brought. you know, michael cohen, to his credit, first alerted everybody to the fraudulent financial statements back when he testified before the house oversight committee. we spoke to him and developed then the evidence that you need to support his credibility. you can't go to a jury and say look, convict on the testimony of michael cohen because he was in the room and he's going to tell you the financial statements were concocted. the way you have to prove it is laborious. you have to go to the state, the accounting records, asset by

asset, your by year. look to see is the value accurate? how is it arrived? were the calculations honest? consistent with market practice or rigged? what we found in case after case was that the methodology was rigged to boost up the asset values. in some cases, even the arithmetic was rigged. forget about you know, comparables and whether they're actually comparables. there were instances in which the actual match was rigged so what was set out in the accounting records as the average price per aeker wasn't the average price. there were instance after instance where some of the basic metrics were changed. trump's triplex apartment where he lived, although it was composed of 11,000 square feet, was valued for financial statement purposes as 30,000

square feet. so triple the actual size. so asset by asset, there was a different story but when you put it all together, it strongly supported what cohen had told us about reverse engineering. the asset values to reach the net worth target that had been ordained from donald trump. >> what do you hope people glean from your book? what do you want them to understand kind of person we had as a president? it's an incredibly corrupt way to run any business. especially if you're the country's president. there's still a lot there. but it's also clear from the book. what is your hope? >> that's one of the takeaways that people i thought needed to understand. irrespective of whether there was a prosecution that crimes had been committed. another thing that people need to understand is it's really hard to investigate any former

president. particularly this former president. you have the ability to withhold evidence. the media interest in the investigation complicated matters. politics gets injected because no matter what prosecutive decision is reached, it's going to be seen through a political lens. so what i took from this is not with standing the challenges, what prosecutors need to do is apply the same standards, answer the same questions you ask when you go about your business in the ordinary course of what you do as prosecutors. so you decide is the person guilty? is the evidence legally sufficient to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? do you have a reasonable prospect of winning if you bring the case to trial? and what are the aggrevating or mitigating circumstances that might lead you in one direction or another? and when we looked at all of those things, at least when i

rooked at them. when the former district attorney looked at them, we thought all pointed in the direction of prosecution. but there's a real debate about what are the standards to apply. i feel very strongly as i wrote in the book, that it has to be the same standards. it's a law enforcement decision. prosecutors are not politicians. we don't have any insight about what serves the public interest. you make law enforcement decisions. there are other political decisions are made. pardons, impeachment for political decisions. the decisions whether to bring political charges is not a political decision. it's a law enforcement decision and needs to be made by the same criteria that prosecutors use as we go about our business day after day, case after case. >> thank you very much for being here and for talking to us. >> thank you so much for having me. >> it's really great to have you. >> appreciate it very much. >> the book is called people versus donald trump, an inside

account. mark pomeranz has been our guest much of the hour and we thank you. when we come back, we'll be joined by one of the pulitzer prize winning reporters. suzanne craig will join our coverage after a quick break. don't go anywhere. coverage aftei k don't go anywhere. my name is tonya, i am 42. as mother of nine kids, i think i waited this long to get botox® cosmetic because i take like no time for myself. my kids are sports kids. we're always running from one activity to another. i'm still tonya, and i got botox® cosmetic,

and this is like the first thing i've done for me in a really, really long time. my life is still crazy, it's just as full as it was before. just with less lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown line's fe, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history. muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including botulinum toxins. as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. see for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been.

the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us.

when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. pulitzer prize winner, our lifeline on stories like this, suzanne craig.

i thought of your reporting on this. tell me what you heard. >> yeah, i mean, it sounded, he has a great phrase that he borrowed from one of his colleagues where he said it's sort of like boiling the ocean. there's so much and it took so much time to get there. it was fascinating to hear. i felt for so long, and you might also feel this way. you're sort of watching it. you're very involved in terms of the reporting on it. but you're sort of your face is up against the wall. like you're up against the window and you're looking in and we finally sort of got to see what was happening in the room. it was just so interesting to see how almost paralyzing the, just the debate was. it seemed like somehow that almost stop dsed a larger investigation. there was debate about is michael cohen a good witness. i was writing them down. deutsche bank. he submitted false financial statements but one of the prosecutors pointed out those cases are usually only brought

when there's a default on a loan. so should they bring that? there was just so many issues once they felt they had it. that all the debate internally became quite paralyzing. it was fascinating to sort of see the inside. i'm only halfway through the book, but it was just really interesting as i was reading, just to see how it felt, just how paralyzing the discussion about whether to bring the case became. >> i finished today as i was waiting for the results of my covid rapid test upstairs. what's interesting, the 106 pages, first 106 pages on the hush money. it's as you described it. because federal election laws are federal, it's a very difficult prosecution. you know, but for people like him throwing open the doors and saying here's what we looked at

and the challenges, we don't have any idea what's going on behind closed doors then he writes about the enterprise case. it is pretty clear that he believes there is a mountain of criminal conduct on trump's part. when you ask if he thinks he should be held accountable, he thinks he should, but he's not sure he will. where do you stand on that question? >> we only have right now, we're talking about sort of his view of the stormy daniels case, but it doesn't seem like it's the strongest one from what he's saying. you sort of were going through and he calls it you know, and it's been written about a zombie case. they would decide they're going to bring it then it would die and come back to life and then die. he actually turned to the financial records, the financial statements, thinking there could be a broader case that would have several components.

the reek out case he was talking about. it was interesting to see just in so much detail, the challenges of the hush money payments. the hush money payment case. which is the one they're going forward with. it doesn't mean that the other one they won't go forward with it, but the discussion about that was very interesting. >> and the one thing that -- >> the other thing, i just think, too, you sort of saw component pieces as the reporting was coming, but how he just laid out really he felt it was a criminal enterprise. it was example after example after example of behavior which is why he wanted to bring a case that encompassed a lot of activity. because he felt it was a criminal enterprise. we were sort of seeing, we'll talk about disparate cases, but he was looking at it in its totality. that argument didn't go anywhere in the ultimately. they decided to focus you know his attention mainly on the

financial statements. but just to see that that thought process and how it felt was really interesting. >> well, and then to read the book, having read attorney general james' lawsuit. i mean, they saw the evidence the same way. and i pressed him on that. he said well some of it might be the burden of proof. but there is a concession that some of it comes down to humans and resources and things like that. >> yeah. yeah, and i have to say the one thing that also stood out when you're reading it is just how far along and how powerful the new york attorney general's case is. where they were. they were sharing information that was helping him on the financial statement case. and that civil case is going to trial in october if it doesn't settle. but that was just really interesting. i think for some people out there who were looking for a criminal conviction, you know, they want to see criminal charges brought on that, but that civil case is going forward

and just to see how much information james had and had it early and was sharing with the manhattan office. >> and that she puts the same frame around it. that it is this enterprise. you're the only person we want to talk to after we dive through this material. thank you so much for watching with us and spending some time with us. we'll be right back. and spe with us. we'll be right back. spend $30 on your next visit to ihop and get a fandango movie ticket to see marvel studios' ant-man and the wasp: quantumania. get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too.

qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. we got the house! go to getrefunds.com to get started. you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. when you're ready to go, but static says “whoa.” try bounce lasting fresh dryer sheets. ♪♪ more freshness. more softness. less static. less wrinkles. yeah! it's the sheet. ♪♪ new bounce lasting fresh dryer sheets. it's the sheet!

thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. i'll be back in two hours with rachel maddow, joy reid and all

of our prime time