jobs you can raise a family on, and most don't require a college degree. jobs where people don't have to leave home in search of an opportunity. but they do require at least four years of trained apprenticeships, which is one of the reasons the united states has the best trained workers in the world like you. and by the way, the vast majority of americans don't know that. we ought to keep telling them. every time they say, why are you so pro labor, you're the best workers in the world, and they say, how is that? nobody decides i want to be a laborer, i want to be a plumber, i want to be an electrician, it takes you four years, busting your neck, basically going back to school to be able to become certified. that's why you're the best. you're the best educated in what you do. i really mean it.

i spoke with members of the business round table, of the big business guys, asked why i'm so pro labor, you save them money. what you do lasts and through the american rescue plan, we're funding work force development programs, including 128 million here in wisconsin, so american workers prepared to compete in the economy we're building. this is a blue collar, blueprint to rebuild america. and we're also doing something that for years, people just talked about. we're going to buy american for everything we build. last night, i announced we're proposing new standards to require all construction materials be made in america.

american lumber, american glass, american dry wall, american fiberoptics. american roads, bridges, highways, made with american products. my first two years in office, we've created 800,000 manufacturing jobs. where? i mean, it sincerely. jobs you can live on. where is it written american can't lead the world of manufacturing? i didn't see it written anywhere. our economic agenda has ignited a new manufacturing boom. just outside of madison, head pharmaceuticals going to hire 250 workers at a drug manufacturing facility. georgia pacific is committed to a major expansion of the green bay paper production facility bringing in 100 new employees, and hiring 500 construction workers. for decades, we have imported products abroad and send jobs overseas because they thought it was cheaper to have cheaper

labor. now america is exporting product overseas and creating jobs here at home. [ applause ] i didn't come from a poor family. i came from a typical middle income family. split level home. grand pop living with us. probably wasn't private for mom and dad but we thought it was good. the middle class has been hollowed out. hollowed out. good paying manufacturing jobs moved overseas, production, because it was cheaper there. when jobs move overseas, factories at home close down. you saw it in jamesville, where sarah, a woman you just heard from is from. when the last assembly line was shut down and the gm plant, two days before christmas, 2008, thousands of people lost their

jobs at the plant and the surrounding businesses that the plant kept alive. look, think about how many moms and dads had to have that conversation with their kids. honey, i just lost my job. we got to move, honey. i'm not sure where, we can't live here anymore. no job. once thriving cities and towns became shadows of what they used to be. and when those towns were hollowed out, something else was lost. pride. self-esteem. a sense of self-worth. but now we're going to turn that around. we're building an economy where no one is going to be left behind. my economic plan is about investing in places, people that have been forgotten. as part of that plan, i talked last night about things we're going to do for families just a little more breezing room. just a little more breathing room. at the end of the month when everything is paid, you have just a little more breathing room. we're going to lower the cost of

every day products for y'all. and we're taking on what we call junk fees, those hidden surcharges businesses use to make you pay more. we're making airlines show just how much the full price of the ticket costs up front, not after the fact, and refund your money if your flight is cancelled, reduce the exorbitant bank overdraft fees, saving the american taxpayer a billion dollars a year, just these fees that were exorbitant for an overdraft. we're proposing to cut credit card fees, by 75%. now they average, if you're late in the payment by a day, it's 30 bucks. guess what, it's going to be $8 now. i heard a commentator on the way flying out here on air force one. television was on, talking about little things, why isn't biden talking about important things.

important issues. the next thing he's going to be talking about taking in your garbage. well, let me tell you something. junk fees may not matter to wealthy people but they matter to most people like the home i grew up in. they add hundreds of dollars. add hundreds of dollars a month, make it harder to pay your bills or afford that family trip. i know how unfair it feels when a company overcharges you, and think they can get away with it. it plays for suckers. and it makes you angry, at least it does me. frankly, it offends me to think about it. so i'm calling on congress to pass the junk free prevention act. so we can do more than crack down on these junk fees. for too long, workers have been getting stiffed. you know, 30 million workers, the vast majority of them on an

hourly wage had to sign noncompete agreements when they took their job. 30 million. these aren't trade secrets they're hiding. they are hourly wages. that's when a construction worker on a job site can't cross the street and take a job with another outfit to make a couple more bucks. we're banning these agreements for companies that will compete, won't compete, so they pay people the fair share. why in god's name you tell an hourly worker that they have to sign an agreement that they will not take a similar job anywhere in the area? look, one of my objectives is to restore the dignity of work, to restore it. you know, we've made a lot of progress over the last two years. many of you have seen, we've had a spirited debate last night, with my republican friends. my republican friends, they seem

shocked when i raised the plans of some of their members and their caucus to cut social security. and marjorie taylor greene and others stood up and said liar, liar, reminds me of liar, liar house or fire, well, guess what, you know, i remind you that rick scott from florida, the guy who ran the u.s. senate campaign has a plan. i got his brochure right here. it has a plan, here's what he says in his plan, let me open it up here. i'm sorry. he says all federal legislation sunsets every five years. if the law is worth keeping, congress can pass it again. social security, medicare, medicaid, and by the way, you have, senator, named ron

johnson. >> president biden responding to senator rick scott there. we're going to go back to this in just a second, i promise, but secretary blinken and the nato secretary, stoltenberg are answering questions about the spy balloon, let's listen. >> learning what we saw and picked up as the balloon traversed the united states. as to who's responsible for that, china is. and it doesn't matter on what level, which individuals may or may not have been responsible? . the fact is china engage instead this irresponsible action, a violation of our sovereignty, and territorial integrity, and international law. and as we noted as well, we are not alone in this. country's across five continents have had surveillance balloons over fly their territory, which

is why they're sharing this information with others. we continue to look to china to act responsibly, and as well to help us in managing this relationship responsibly. that's what we continue to look for. and i'm sorry, the first part of your question. >> the fighter jets. >> oh, the fighter jets. as we've said throughout this process, every single turn we will, working very closely with the ukrainians, as well as working with other partners and allies, work to make sure that ukraine has what it needs, when it needs it to effectively defend itself and continue to take back the territory that's been seized from it by russian forces. as the nature of the conflict, of the aggression has evolved, so, too is the sport we provided, what we did initially, in fact, before the russian aggression itself as we saw it coming and wanted to make sure that ukraine had in its hands

what it needed to defend itself. we did these significant draw downs in well more than a year ago, a year and a half ago, before september, before the aggression, christmas, before the aggression, and as a result, they had stingers and javelins on hand and they were able to repel the attack and push it back. every step along the way, as needs have evolved, so too has what we have provided ukraine, and that most recently took place with the decision to provide the abrams tanks and of course germany providing the leopard tanks, and others doing the same. we have been very clear all along what's vital is not just a particular weapons system, a piece of equipment, equally important is the ability of ukrainians to use it effectively, and that requires in some cases, significant training. equally important is the ability to maintain it, and then finally, all of that has to be brought together in a coherent

strategy. all of those elements are important. it's a long way of saying this is an evolving process, and we will continue to make judgments about what we think ukraine needs and what can be most effective in using. we'll do that in very close consultation with ukrainians, and of course in consultation with our partners. >> the chinese balloon over the united states, chinese behavior, we see that china has invested heavily in new military capabilities, including different types of surveillance and intelligence platforms. >> both of them commenting on the chinese spy balloon saying they're gathering more information. let's go back now to president biden who's in madison, wisconsin. we're going to try to play back that tape of him responding directly to republicans and using rick scott's proposal as proof that republicans have pushed forward this idea of

sunsetting medicare and social security. now he's talking about the debt ceiling. do not go anywhere. go anywhere >> because of the grit and resolve of the american worker and i'm not just trying to be nice. i have been saying this my whole career. we're going to keep lower costing for families. we're going to keep putting shovels in the ground to rebuild our infrastructure, our supply chains, and manufacture more here at home. you know, in the communities across the country that were too easily written off for dead, we're going to see not only jobs and economic opportunity return but a sense of pride. i'm from scranton, pennsylvania, i was raised in a steel town called claymont, delaware. just like you're going to see here in wisconsin, we're going to make sure that what we do is rebuild these communities. let me close with this.

i have long said it's never been a good bet to bet against america, not a joke. that's what i've told -- i have been doing foreign policy for a long time. i know every major world leader for the last 35 years, know them face to face. i did it for the previous president, my president, barack obama, and i'm doing it now. i can say honestly as i stand here today, i have never ever been more optimistic about america's future than i am today. we just have to remember who in god's name we are. we're the united states of america. we're the best positioned nation in the world to lead the world in the 21st century. there's nothing beyond our capacity if we work together. and it's my hope we're going to find enough republicans that want to do that. god bless you all, and may god protect our troops. thank you.

>> president biden there in madison, wisconsin, talking about jobs, saying his policies, his plans, his legislation, much of it bipartisan is going to bring jobs to the country. they're going to make jobs. good jobs, jobs you can raise a family on. really doing a, not a victory lap, you should say, but a real push forward with his economic message you could hear so much of at the state of the union. joining me is nbc news senior white house correspondent, dasha burns, capitol hill correspondent, allie -- ali vitali, and political contributor jake sherman, and as always, i'm katy tur. >> he has a lot more energy today, a lot more energy last night than we have seen recently. it seems like he has taken ahold of this message. he believes that it is a winning one for him, and he's hammering

it home. let's work together to make this country better. let's finish the job. we heard it over and again last night and again today. >> well, the state of the union, as you well know, is the product of weeks of work and really months when you consider all of the work the speech writers and policy folks do. for the president, there's this final push that takes a lot of his time when he's not seen in public working on this, and then to have this speech go as it did last night, where there were a lot of positive views about how he did in terms of content and performance, that gives you a certain level of energy that the president is wanting to put on display and perhaps trying to answer critics who have questioned his age and his fitness as the oldest serving president. and questioning how the public perceives him based on all the kind of polling we have seen and gets talked about so much.

the president believes he has a good story to tell, a record of accomplishments that he wants to run on for the remainder of his term, and perhaps for a second term, and so there is a certain energy that's playing out here. perhaps it's a little of the kind of, you know, the thrill of the big night, and he's getting a little bit of an encore on the road. that's a part of what's happening, and also the sense of having tangled with republicans in realtime, knowing he would face republican critics at a time when he was talking about trying to find common ground to work on issues that matter across the board politically, and to say he wants to work with them on big economic issues and cultural issues when you talk about things like policing and gun safety, things where they may not see the issues in the same way he does, but he wants to try to bridge that gap somehow, and to feel that on the matters of social security and medicare as we watched play out last night, it appears the white

house feels strongly that the president won the point in the moment, and so that appears to be carrying him into today and there will be other travel this week as he's trying to take some of these ideas on the road. so the white house, which sometimes does not have a lot of favorable news to tout in terms of how they feel about how things are going is going to try to soak up as much of this as they can. they have also been dealing with the chinese balloon issue. you dipped into the remarks from secretary of state blinken who is saying today that they are gathering a lot of information and intelligence from the wreckage, and from what they observed. they're sharing that, and there's more to come there. it feels like they are getting a handle on that. what had been a situation that was sort of interfering with the prep for the state of the union, and that may be coming together as well. katy. >> mike memoli is at the event in madison, wisconsin, we can only see so much on television.

tell us what it was like to be in that room, and what kind of reception the president was getting? >> reporter: this is a joe biden crowd. these are union workers, the core of president biden's political identity, and so it's no accident that this was the location the white house chose for him to make his post state of the union road show. i want to talk about two of the main take aways from last night that we saw carry over in today's remarks. the first was the feisty back and forth. last night president biden didn't name the republican he was talking about. we know of course it was rick scott of florida. not only did biden name check rick scott today, he even held up a pamphlet from senator scott and read directly from the lines that he said show senator scott and potentially other republicans support sunsetting medicare and social security, and went further referring to senator ron johnson, also from wisconsin, of course, where the

president is speaking today to make that point, and then you now know president biden is an avid watcher of "morning joe." he referred to a clip about mike lee uprooting social security. clearly delighting in that exchange and building on that. i want to talk about the key economic framing for president biden, that's going to be a core part of the reelection campaign moving forward. you can see behind me on stage, the union workers who are behind president biden on stage. you heard president biden last night talk about the forgotten american, the invisible americans those who feel like washington isn't working for them. the middle class voter that president biden has prided himself on. biden saying the kinds of jobs that are going to be created from his infrastructure law, they're bringing back manufacturing from the c.h.i.p.s and science act. that is not just bringing back

jobs. it's bringing back a sense of president biden and he's connecting with that core political identity. you and i have talked about this, the idea that he knew donald trump had a chance to win when he saw the crowd behind him on stage, and that's exactly the kind of crowd president biden had on stage behind him here today, and at one point turning around to speak to them directly. i think that's something to watch moving forward as he gets ready to gear up for 2024. >> shaking their hands right now. when he saw the crowd behind donald trump, i believe it was in donald trump, those were democratic voters. let's go to pennsylvania because dasha burns is our woman in that state. she's always there. dasha, you have been talking to split ticket voters, voters who vote for a republican and a democrat on the same ticket. were they watching last night, and if they were, what did they think? >> reporter: yeah, katie, i don't think you have to look at my locater anymore.

you can assume where i am on days like this. we took to the same set of voters before the state of the yard line, asking what they were expecting and afterwards as well. before the address, there was a lot of eye rolling, another political speech, here we go, but the reaction told has been a ton of pleasant surprise at how much they did enjoy watching this political speech. over all folks felt he had a strong performance. the split ticket voters are really important. the demographic in the middle frustrated with the status of both parties right now. we talked to maureen who is a democrat who split her ticket and allen novak a republican who splits his ticket as well. the former republican committee chair in virginia in the late '90s and early 2000s, now he's probably voting for more

democrats than republicans because he's frustrated with the direction of the party. >> i think he fired up the democrats, how long they stay fired up because i think the speech showed energy. i think the pretty much was to finish the job, i would be shocked if finish the job wasn't a campaign slow dan. we would like him not to run again. >> there were so many things he addressed. i think it would be difficult to have gone into detail how he's planning to accomplish these things, but i think addressing certain big issues head on, were a lot clearer than i expected. >> reporter: now, to that 2024 point, katy, maueen, who is registered as a democrat, she liked president biden, thought he had a strong performance. and when i asked about 2024, i

really like my grandfather, do i want him to run for president, i don't think so. the age factor a sticking point for voters, democratic voters that i have been talking to. the moments that resonated for maureen and allen, republican and democrat, for allen it was what you just talked with mike memoli about, conversations around americans that were left behind, about manufacturing. about bringing jobs here and speaking to the middle class. for maureen, it was victim impact stories, the father whose daughter overdosed on fentanyl, tyre nichols family there. the empty and story telling stood out to a lot of folks. >> dasha burns, thank you very much, and mike memoli and i were talking about, there was that moment with social security and medicare and the back and forth with republicans. well, today, again, he name

checked the republican, rick scott, not exactly a back bencher. here is the moment where he called him out. here he is in full. i know we had to break away to go to secretary blinken for a moment. so let's watch. >> i remind you that rick scott from florida, ran the u.s. senate campaign has a plan. i got his brochure right here, has plan. here's what he says in his plan. let me open it up here. i'm sorry. he says all federal legislation sunsets every five years, if the law is worth keeping, congress can pass it again. social security and medicare. >> it went on a little bit longer than that. you get the picture. ali vitale is with us. rick scott is out there saying, no, i never said that. explain. >> reporter: this was an unforced error seen by many of

my republican sources over the summer, before the midterm elections. the fact that biden bringing it up without naming names in the chamber. it elicited chants of liar and others. today, though, you can' it, biden bringing the receipts, opening up the plan from senator rick scott who you're right is not a back bencher within this congress. he has close ties to former president donald trump. and the person in charge of trying to win the senate back for republicans. we know that did not work. democrats told control of the chamber, this is something scott has tried to thread the needle on. when you talk about key programs like medicare, scott hales from the state of florida. important to his constituents as well as he gets back on the ballot in 2024. look, this is something in

talking to my sources on the hill and at the white house last night, this moment where biden effectively trying to get republicans on the record clapping to not cut social security and medicare. and they're actually negotiating on the debt ceiling. >> jake sherman, he's also saying, hello, we've got to work together. the american public expects it, and i notice that kevin mccarthy behind the president last night clapped a lot. clapped for many of the proposals that he was putting out there, not all of them. and he appeared much more conciliatory that i think people might have expected to see from the republican speaker of the house. sitting behind the president during the state of the union. there was that moment in the beginning when the president congratulated him. they took hands. you could sense there was genuine warmth between the two men there. and there were points where he shushed his own caucus. told them to be quiet

essentially. can president biden and kevin mccarthy work together to get something done this legislative congress? or will it be impossible not because of kevin mccarthy but because of what kevin mccarthy has to contend with within his own conference? >> a lot to unpack there. the iconic shot of the speaker behind the president, always a difficult when one president is of a different party than the speaker. a few thoughts. there's low hanging fruit, trying to curb the spread of fentanyl. these are good issues for the president, and you'd have a very difficult time finding republicans who want to keep these goofy resort fees on business traveler hotels, and concert fees, airline fees.

this is something the president would have support for on capitol hill. it's low hanging fruit that could be popular with members of both parties. there is a bucket of that kind of stuff that they could absolutely do. there's the larger question, can they work together and get a spending deal. that is the $32 trillion question. we're going to report in our afternoon edition right now, just met with senate republicans. no way middle east raising a -- he's raising a clean debt ceiling. mentes -- does biden see it in his political interest to get something like that done? that's a question we're not entirely sure of yet. mccarthy certainly does. there's two levels here. the low hanging fruit, the larger stuff. the low hanging fruit has a chance. these two men, it's important to point out, are in a rush to see more conciliatory and reasonable

with each other. kevin mccarthy has perhaps never in his career sounded as open to talking with a democratic leader as he is right now with joe biden. he wants the deal badly. he wants to make it seem like he is being the most reasonable man in the room, the most reasonable on capitol hill. joe biden said i don't want to ruin your reputation but i look forward to working with you. those dynamics are difficult, multilayered. i want to at one thing to the comments on rick scott, i have never seen something as bone headed as putting that out, and seeing something that has a longer tail politically than saying you need to renew every federal program, every four years. if you're a voter on social security and medicaid and someone's running for election, if you put republicans in charge, they might decide not no renew social security, medicare. this is going to have a long

tail against republicans. >> republicans historically have been pushing this idea of reforming or cutting or doing something about social security and medicare. didn't just pop up out of nowhere. the media didn't make it up. democrats didn't make it up. republicans have been talking about it for a hong time. ask paul ryan about it. and joining me now is former rnc chairman, and msnbc political analyst, michael steele, so michael where do we go from here? >> follow the president. >> i like these open-ended questions to you. i want to get your sense of how you saw, not to go too far back, but how you saw last night, and how it's going to inform how these next few months play out and the lead up to the presidential campaign, which is, you know, a sneeze away? >> i think the great reporting we just heard from our msnbc and

nbc news teams are just really is informing the moment, right now, the president has the advantage. he, you know, republicans thought they were going to own the moment. they were going to own the libs in the room, that they had the upper hand. kevin mccarthy admonishes the caucus in the morning, you know, don't misbehave, you know, cameras are everywhere. open mics are everywhere, and you know, boebert and greene and others just couldn't help themselves. they took the bait. and america really need to appreciate what happened here. we watched live realtime the president negotiate off the table medicare, medicaid and social security. and republicans stood up and applauded. no, not touching it. when we know, in fact, that that's not where the republican party was.

so the president owned the moment. he's outright now reinforcing the moment. i think to your point coming into this conversation about mccarthy never seeming more anxious to negotiate with a democrat, there are a number of reasons for that. one, internal polling is showing they're hemorrhaging right now. despite this pole everyone seems to be excited about showing biden having issues and 62% of americans feeling this, that and the other, the internal polling is starting to tell a different story, creating a narrative as we move into late winter, early spring. and what happened is manging the internal polling because more actualized, and that's concerning. so politically republicans want to get ahead of the narratives before they settle in with voters, and say we're part of the win if we don't get a win

ourselves. >> did sarah huckabee sanders resonate? >> it did not move the needle with voters at all. that was less a conversation with the american people and more a conversation with donald trump and the maga base. it was thematically about, you know, woke this, and you know, crazy liberals that. it was not inclusive of policy inscriptions. you would think given what president had laid out, that at least someone would do a quick rewrite and say throw in this offset policy or legislative initiative we want to push back against the administration's effort to do x. none of that, and again, it just speaks to more broadly why following second behind the state of the union is not a desired position to have. because half the country's tuned out at that point. the media, okay, yeah, we got to

cover this, and typically what's written has nothing to do with what we just heard. that becomes a bigger problem. this is a bigger conversation for narrow selection of the voter base than it was for the broader collection of voters across the country. >> michael steele, always good to have you, thank you so much. >> take care. the death toll in turkey and syria is rising by the minute. how much time rescue crews say they have left to find survivors, and what turkish president erdogan is being accused of. why did one of the officers involved in the beating of tyre nichols text an image of nichols bloodied and propped up against a police car to at least five people, one of them a civilian. was there some previous unknown connection between nichols and the officers? investigators are looking into all of the possibilities. plus what a new book is alleging about manhattan d.a.

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believe there are still survivors trapped under the rubble. in syria, onlookers captured video of a newborn baby pulled safely from the ruin, and rushed to the hospital. it's believed the mom gave birth to her under the rubble. the baby is recovering under the care of doctors, the mom, though, did not survive. the official death toll is 11,000, making this the deadliest quake worldwide in more than a decade. joining me now from turkey, nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. president erdogan is being criticized for the pace of the recovery and the rescue effort. what can you tell us about why he's being criticized for it and what he said in response? >> reporter: yeah, katy. we have been hearing a lot from president erdogan. he visited the site, he actually visited the region i'm in right now, and he said that, you know, he was going to be doing his best. he dismissed critics and said

that actually, the effort has been improving, that despite all of the criticism, things have been getting better. if you talk to people here and ask them, they're not going to necessarily agree. i have been going around the city, people have been extremely angry at president erdogan and the local government here. they say there hasn't been enough to get people ouch the wreckage, and this is something that, you know, if you're one of those people, you're hearing people underneath the wreckage, screaming and yelling for help. there isn't help coming, it's going to make you very very angry, and it's the kind of anger we have heard over and over and over again. it was sadness when i arrived here two days ago. now, it really has gotten a political dimension. now, one of the things we heard from president erdogan yesterday was that he said he was going to be keeping notes of the critics, and it was a sort of oblique reference to taking some sort of action against those who criticize the search and rescue effort here in turkey. this is a man who has been in

power for 20 years. he just announced a state of emergency that he said would last for three months. interestingly, that will end right before he's supposed to stand in elections in may to in his bid, extend his presidency beyond the 20 years he has already served. he's already assaults from opposition forces. the economy is in incraters, 50% inflation in this country. that is man who is fighting for his political life, and he knows very well that back in 1999, when there was an earthquake that was far more lethal than the one we're seeing now, that ushered in a period that allowed for him to take power. it was erdogan who took power in the wake of another disastrous earthquake back in 1999 so

erdogan knows well that public dissatisfaction over responses to earthquakes could mean the end of his political career. >> you would like to see building codes implemented there and retrofitting for buildings that are older and not newly built like what they did across california in the face of deadly earthquakes out there. matt bradley, thank you very much. and one of the memory fits police officers involved in the beating of tyre nichols is accused of doing after the assault, and raises questions about why he was so brutally assaulted. a new book raising questions about the manhattan d.a.'s question of donald trump. what the author, a former prosecutor in the probe said alvin bragg got wrong, and what alvin bragg said in response. on alvin bragg said in response the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. and it could strike at any time. think you're not at risk? wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor

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there's a story in every piece of land. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story. did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make it if there was no -- >> you'll have to ask michael. >> you'll have to ask michael, donald trump said that in 2018 when reporters asked about a curious check written to porn star stormy daniels. this morning, michael cohen met with the manhattan district attorney again who asked michael about that check, we presume. it is his 15th meeting with the office. he told reporters he sat for two

hours of questioning. at a briefing yesterday, d.a. alvin bragg didn't say much about the case but he did have a lot to say about the release of an unauthorized book from one of his former prosecutors, mark pomerantz, "the people versus donald trump," saying he had the evidence in the case, but he stalled. >> i bring hard cases when they are ready and came to the same conclusion that multiple senior prosecutors in my office independently came to and that's that the case simply was not ready. >> joining me is investigations correspondent, tom winter. what do we know about what mark pomeranz is alleging and why alvin bragg say it just wasn't

enough. >> a significant portion of this book is about the findings of the investigation, and some of the things he says they uncovered. when he addressed in his resignation letter and what he's talked about in his book and several interviews including msnbc about what he thought was a case that was effectively ready to go or at least be brought to a grand jury to seek an indictment against the former president. he noted the case was not perfect in his own words, a difficult case, but he thought because of the rule of law and the need to up hold it, it's a case that should have been brought. yesterday, people familiar with the matter at the manhattan district attorney's office, they had some concerns that there was not enough of necessary memos that were put together, that things were not clearly explained as to what a prosecution might be, and that appellate attorneys, and so their role is to look at a potential indictment and say, okay, you may have the facts, you may have these claims that you seek to prove, but there could be some issues when these

are challenged in court that those attorneys have been pushed out of the process. i spoke with pomeranz about those things we learned yesterday. look, if they had questions about the case or the information that we developed, we would have been certainly happy to brief them on that. he pushes back against that notion. basically what you have here in a nutshell is what he said in his book, i thought i had a case, and what alvin bragg said yesterday, we just heard from him, saying no, i didn't think the case was ready yet, and i wanted more time. and obviously now it's clear there's an ongoing investigation meeting number 15 with michael cohen. >> also the first since the grand jury was formed in this case. tom winter, thank you very much. and joining me now is former senior member of the special counsel's probe, robert mueller's probe into russian

interference, and current msnbc analyst, andrew weissmann. what do you make of what pomeranz is alleging? >> there's a certain he said he said quality to this. one says apply the rule of law. the other says i amplying the rule of law, nobody would be charged in this situation. i have heard that one of the things that caused a difference between mark pomeranz, and alvin bragg and his senior prosecutors is the use of something called the willful blindness charge. you can't really prove intelligent. you can say somebody sort of closed their eyes to what was going on. that is a standard charge in federal court, and mark pomeranz is a federal prosecutor. he had no state experience going into this. the state prosecutor said that is not something that is charged in state course. there is no ability to bring that kind of charge. they only found one case with one judge who said you could do

it. and so that's an area where you can see just a good faith dispute and a difference on both the evaluation of the facts and evaluation of the law. i do think it's commendable that alvin bragg is still going forward. i do have questions about mark pomeranz writing a book in the middle of an investigation. you can be sure as alvin bragg has said, an exhibit sticker is going to be put on the book, and if there are charges, it's going to be used to try to up end the case. >> explain that a little bit more. it does give something of a road map to the other side. >> absolutely. so there was litigation before the trump organization and allen weisselberg case where they talked about all sorts of pre-trial publicity, and the dependents said they were hurt by it, and that had to be litigated. so if donald trump is charged, there's going to be claims of selective prosecution. there will be claims that the case shouldn't be tried here in manhattan because of the publicity.

there will be claims that witnesses learned what to say and weaknesses and ways to tailor their testimony based on this book. there's a whole thing defense lawyers are supposed to do. that's their job, take what is out there and use it to complicate the case. you can understand why prosecutors are saying there's a reason that mark pomeranz had to sign something to get permission to publish something. i had to do that before i wrote a book. i had to go to doj, went to pre-publication for view, even john bolton did that. i can understand why they are upset that this wasn't something that was vetted to make sure that the case that mark pomeranz says he wants to see made isn't hurt and undermined by the very book where he's making that case. >> got it. andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining us. appreciate it. and we've got new details

about one of the officers involved in tyre nichols death. demetrius hailey stood over nichols, several police officers are under administrative investigation. the officers faced disciplinary action, according to the chief legal officer who spoke to nbc news. those seven officers have not been publicly identified. joining me now from memphis is nbc news correspondent antonia hilton. i'm wondering, in your conversations with people out there, if anybody is reacting to the photo that this officer took and then shared, and if anybody is questioning or talking about whether there might have been a prior connection, a history between tyre nichols and at least one of the officers or some of the officers involved in

the beating? >> reporter: it's a situation that needs to be talked about very carefully here because for weeks here in memphis, this is my third week in town, people have been talking about the potential connections here, musing about all of this, often without any evidence or facts, and now we have this information that one of the officers, demetrius haley did take two photographs of tyre while he was slumped over, beaten and bloody, sent them not just to other people who work for the city but unidentified residents here in the community, and that of course has alarmed people, and led people who were theorizing about possible connections. it's given them a sense that they were on to something. but i want to be clear that as of right now, what we know does not conclusively show any connection between demetrius haley and tyre nichols, the family has been insistent at press conferences, community

meetings over the last couple of weeks to ask people to not theorize, to not spread rumors online about tyre and his connections to people. they don't know, and they don't believe there's a connection here. the fact that this happened, that any officers took these photos has disgusted people. i don't think that word captures the level of anger as i have talked to people at this historic restaurant. if you're from memphis, you would know where i am right now. people saying the word evil, and they see it as a symptom of a broader cultural issue in this police department, in other police departments across the country, that they were really looking for the president last night to address. i want you to take a listen to a conversation that i had with one young man here. >> kind of towed the line between being a cop apologist. should have been a hard step speaking by black and brown bodies being murdered by cops

and put a dead stop to it. he could have put an executive order and made something happen, instead of asking something he know people will push back on. >> reporter: as you can imagine this news about these photographs have angered a community that's already deep in mourning, already incredibly disturbs and distraught over all of this, and they wanted to see the president not just talk about the possibility of change or reform or a commitment to trying to figure out something to do in a bipartisan fashion, they wanted him to announce actual action. they're looking for a legislative package now. this community, has resurfaced all of these emotions now. they're going to be looking closely at biden's next steps in the coming days. >> antonia hilton, thank you very much. and that right there is going to do it for me today on this wednesday. hallie jackson picks up our coverage next. on picks up our coverage next. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. free monsters, free bosses, any footlong for free! this guy loves a great offer.

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