hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a meeting today between a prosecutor and a witness is one heck of a story to tell is raising eyebrows. michael cohen, the insider turned critic, and the former attorney for donald trump met with the manhattan da for the 15th time today. brag recently convened a grand jury as part of his probe into hush money payments made by trump through cohen to stormy daniels. it's the second such meeting between the da's office and michael cohen since the grand jury was convened. cohen is also the only person to

have ever faced charges in connection to the payments to daniels, even though trumps was implicated in the case by the federal government. back in 2018 in a sentencing memo for michael cohen, federal prosecutors said that trump, quote, acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual one. individual win is none other than the ex-president himself. the meeting today is also taking place at a time when discussions of the criminal culpability is being royaled by allegations of the veteran prosecutor mark pom rans who said the question of criminal culpability over hush money payments is one of many significant unanswered questions about the multiple state, local and federal investigations into the ex-president. watch that. >> i am myself at a loss to

understand what happened at the conclusion of the hush money investigation or for that matter why there was no federal investigation of trump's business finances, husband tax returns, his financial statements shs when "the new york times" came out with its long series on trump's taxes in october 2020, i asked the question, and i said, gee, this is going to prompt a federal investigation. i don't know why it didn't. >> nobody else does either. michael cohen says the da is moving full steam ahead into its criminal probe. here's what he said this morning. >> i believe it's going to lead to an indictment. >> that's where we begin with some of our favorite experts and friends. michael cohen is fresh off the

latest meeting with the manhattan da. michael is the author of the book "revenge" and the cohost of the new podcast "lit call beatdown." also with us onset is former congressman and msnbc political analyst david jolly is here. plus former acting solicitor general is here to elevate it all. he's a law professor at georgetown university, also an msnbc legal analyst. michael cohen, what happened today? >> i was asked to come again to alvin briggs's office to meet with his team. as i stated when i was leaving, his team is really well versed in all aspects of this case. i'm actually impressed with just how quickly that they got up to speed. let's not forget that mark was involved in this for over a year. and mark's knowledge of this case, along with dunn is speck

tack larceny. but this team is well and very up to speed and knowledgeable about all the facts. all of the information and all of the testimony so far that's been provided. >> people get married before going on 15 dates. why 15 visits? >> let's not forget 13 were with the former district attorney. 3 of those 13 while i was incarcerated. so it's technically 10. now it's two. i will be returning to the district attorney'ses a office. when, i'm not going to tell you, but at the end of the day, to me, it's an indication and a clear indication just how serious that alvin bragg is taking this investigation. >> without asking you to tell us what you talked a about, can you give us ab assessment of which part of the alleged criminal conduct by donald trump you

think is on the front burner for the office? >> i i can't. it's no different than asking me exactly what we spoke about. i really do want to respect the request of the team, the district attorney's team. because i don't want the to give anybody any heads up. i'm talking about trump and his team about what it is exactly that they are going for. but so much of this, as mark said last night on your show, so much of this has already been discussed. it's just they are so deep into the nuance of each ask every aspect of all of the, we'll call it, alleged illegalities that were committed by trump and company. >> so one of the things that mark pomeranz writes about in his book are about his look into the crimes committed around what you went to jail for. the hush money payments to stormy daniels through you. and the migration of the sort of

cover story that you actually got on the phone and give to melania trump that you did it to protect him and how trump from the oval office in 2018 was directing that. is that under scrutiny? >> like i said, we can try to parcel it out, but don't want to provide any of the substance of the conversations that i engaged in today with the district attorney other than to say that along with so much more is right now in discussion and the interesting thing everybody keeps asks is why. why now? what's happening? why is alvin finally moving? is it because he received so much scrutiny as a direct result of whether it's pomeranz's book or on this show, i, too, do not understand why it took so long. but then again if you think

about it, he was brand new into the office. i think it's only fair that he had enough time, like they did, in order to review the case. he used the transportation analogy that it just wasn't ready for takeoff. i said before, and i standby it, i believe we're on the tarmac, and i believe rather eminently we're going to have takeoff and eventually since we're going on transportation id yums here, we won't be arriving a the our destination. >> you think that's an indictment? >> that's the destination. >> something else mark pomeranz -- the response i just played was to my question about why sdny, which had amassed enough evidence about donald trump to confidently and dozens and dozens and dozens of times name him as an unindicted coconspirator. that response where he says i have no idea is to my question

about why they never investigated the hush money. do you know the answer to that? >> that's something i'm trying to find out. it's one of the things i'm constantly yelling from the rooftop. it's about transparency. we listened to our president talk about transparency and democracy. i have been yelling the same thing. there's no transparency. we're now seven months in, and i still have yet that they have to start processing. this 486,000 dls. they stayed there are none, but they ultimately determined after the lawsuit that this 486,000 i have yet to get a single document. there's something seriously wrong with the southern district of new york. there's something wrong with the way that this matter was handled.

brought a complaint against jeffrey berman for exactly that reason. the fact that he allegedly recused himself, but he's speaking to main justice. this is a real problem. if americans are supposed to have this belief that our justice department is legitimate, that lady justice wears a mask because it's not supposed to be whether it's rich or poor, everyone is supposed to be treated equally. clearly, the southern district of new york does not operate under those circumstances. and we'll get to it. it's just unfortunately taking a long time and requires a lot of lawyers. >> jeff berman does write he became involved because his deputy was getting direction from main justice to remove some of the references to donald trump. do you believe there was interference in terms of whether

to bring that case once trump left office? >> absolutely. there's no doubt in my mind that it's the reason why they refuse to be transparent. it's why they refuse to turn over any of the documents. it will implicate the president. it will implicate bill barr in terms of the weaponization. and i find it comical that right now you have the republicans screaming that the biden administration is being weaponizing the department of justice against trump of and his act lites. it's complete deflection. i have documents that i would love to provide to president biden because this is exactly what we need to do as democrats. we need to shout about how their weaponization is destroying our democracy, and worse than that, how it's ripping up our constitution. >> we talked about this idea that two systems of justice, two

standards of justice have been created by this -- if you're going to shoot for the king, you can't miss. to bring a case against trump, it's a different standard than what was used for you. or what would be used for me or david. mark pomeranz believes in and of itself is two separate systems of justice. do you agree with that? >> yes, i agree completely. all the the end of the day, let's look to see what's going on just in d.c. alone. how many issues are plaguing members of congress. accountability is only for the stupid people like myself, the easier targets. the ones where they decide the remand of me back because i wouldn't waive my first amendment constitutional right and now published the first book. at the end of the day, this is

the big problem. this is where this biden administratio attorney general, the inspector general, they need to start to look into this because without it, as you said, we now have two completely separate standards of law. >> without probing you on what you were asked, in either of your visits to mr. bragg's office, i think there's a responsibility not to mislead our viewers and to not lead them on. because the truth is from mueller to two impeachments to republicans agreeing trump had abused his office, nothing has ever happened. so i don't want to get too far down the track of believing something will happen. i want to understand if you believe -- mark pomeranz's approach to trump's alleged illegalities and criminality was to look first at all the conduct and all the documentary evidence and your testimony around the hush money.

second to consider and discarded prosecution where all of the corrupt jumpbd takings from the trump university to the businesses were scrutinized. the third was focusing on the documents. and what you testified before congress to in 2019. there was a constant practice and you were in the room for it of devaluing assets for certain purposes. do you believe that whole poo poo platter of alleged criminalalty is on the menu for mr. brag jb g's office. >> let's separate his office from the rest. i don't agree with the statement that so far there hasn't been accountability. there clearly has. the trump organization was found guilty on 17 counts. on top of that, we have our unsinable attorney general who is going to take it. she has the goods. the nice part is that alvin

bragg's office, they were all sharing information. they were all sharing the documentation, the testimony of the various different witnesses. rest assured that accountability will be had. there's no doubt about that. i stand with mark pomeranz when i believe that aer year ago that this case could have been brought. but then again, the more that i am involving myself with this new team, the more that i understand that they were not, or i i should say d bragg was not up to speed, it would be unfair to push him into the case. he probably should have brought that case before he left. then it would have just been in the office and ongoing. instead to ask someone who -- >> why do you think he didn't? >> i don't know the answer. he will tell you it's because, well, it's not right. i'm leaving and i'm putting this massive case that deals with the

former president on to this guy's plate. maybe yes, maybe no, maybe he just wanted to let alvin bragg make the decision. it's not right that even i have been extremely critical of mr. bragg. i can understand based upon the volume of documents. even today, the volume of documents that they are going through, and this team, they really know their stuff. it's almost eerie. he'll turn around and say to me, look at page 3, section 2, and then the 5th line. they really know their stuff. it's not like five pieces of paper. i'm talking about volumes of documents. they are really professional. >> how long were you there today? >> just about two and a half hours. >> you said you are going back? >> yes, i'm expected to go back. >> so neil, let me ask you to -- michael, you have taken this

turn of prosecutorial. it's fascinating. neil, what do you think is going on in alvin bragg's office? >> heaven knows. michael saying district attorney bragg was on the ball today, but coming into your show, i felt like no one here looks good. there are three basic characters. one is this district attorney br a agg who looks really timid. and some of it is not entirely his fault. prosecutor after prosecutor has flinched and wilted in the face of donald trump's attacks on them. and they melt under pressure. so bragg has been inherit hadding some of that. so some of that is not his fault. michael is saying it would be unfair to judge him. he needed time to study it. it seems that bragg did more

saying i need some time. it seemed like he mostly closed the investigation and signalled hi wasn't going to indict. it feels like it was something more than just a bid for more time. that's why not just mark pomeranz, but dunn announced they were leaving so that's one problem. then with respect to pomeranz, the idea that you'd write a book while a case is ongoing, i find really troubling. it's certainly not something i would ever do. maybe he got the ethics clearance for it, but that's not clear to me. the best case for it is bragg was being dilatory and he had to do what was knows safeguard the rule of law. time will tell whether that's true or not. the third is the most important. that's donald trump. i don't want him to hide behind attacks on bragg or anyone else the facts are the facts.

>> let me deem with what neil is talking about. we invited alvin bragg on the show yesterday. we were going to give him as many minutes, but he turned that down. he's been running a ferocious public relations campaign. he's bye-bye briefing former prosecutors. he's been background briefing people on networks where mr. pomeranz would appear. the last time such an aggressive pr campaign was jushd taken that i'm aware of by a prosecutor was andrew mccabe's book came out. and a senior justice department official had many conversations about wrong with it. to me, it screams of

vulnerability and fear when someone does that. >> alvin bragg, a an elected official who faces reelection, comes in and it makes a decision that i think surprises a the lot of people. and michael today is saying, actually, maybe he's being more aggressive than what's been publicly reported. but to inherit a case regarding one of most powerful people in the entire world who happens to be within your jurisdiction and then to kind of publically take a pass on it when you have to face voters under the scrutiny of the entire world is probably the reason you're seeing the pr campaign that you are. and i think it leaves a lot of open questions around alvin braagg. i have a question for michael. i feel like one of the regular viewers.

so two cases between bragg's jurisdiction, you have the hush money payment and the evaluation. where were you going with that? what information about the weaponization of government during your years with donald trump is relevant? >> i don't think it's about while i was with donald trump. it was while i was out and when i was the subject of the weaponization, meaning bill barr, meaning donald trump, the department of justice, southern district of new york and all the prosecutors including the judge. >> you said would love to share with the biden administration. >> i do. not only that, i think it's extremely important for democrats to be able to expose the signatures kans of the

weaponization by the trump administration because if we allow someone like donald trump to do what he did, now that they have the playbook, i talk about that in my book revenge. it we allow them to get away with it, thousand that they have the playbook, which failed. so they will just tweak it. if there's a play that's not really working, you tweak it to make it right. it's slicker than him. it's the end of our democracy. and people don't realize just how fragile democracy actually is. >> we have evidence in this "new york times" investigation, i want to ask you. we now have evidence of politicization that's irrefutable.

i wonner the structure you'd recommend for investigating corruption inside doj. >> it has to start with the inspector general. they have to set up the committee. why is bill barr not been brought in to testify. >> why is mr. durham still work for merrick garland? >> there's so many things i don't understand. it's these little bits and pieces that erodes the confidence of americans in our justice department. >> we have to get neil in. i have to sneak in a quick break. neil, you're welcome to ask any questions. when we come back, we'll keep trying to understand the ultimate end game and whatever happened at sdny. plus after a republican display of mayhem, it looks like a mosh pit, the house gop pick ed up where it left off going after the president's son, hunter biden, and his rats plan

back. and later alarm bells are going off for reproductive rights advocates. a texas judge could block access to medical abortions in all 50 states. that's all of us. what's being done about it and more, when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. g on? zicam is the number one cold shortening brand! highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold! if you think thinkorswim® isn't for you, think again. it's a dynamic suite of trading platforms designed for every kind of trader. so no matter how you like to trade, there's a thinkorswim® platform for you. ♪ ♪ - why are these so bad?

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we're back with michael cohen, neil and david jolly.

jump in here on the politicization of doj ask all that we don't know. >> there's been a new "new york times" story about the politicization of the doj and about how bill barr and the special council were so cozy they have sessions together. they jetted off to italy where italian authorities warned them of criminal wrong doing and barr instead of doing what a normal attorney general would have done, gave that very investigation to john durham, who was supposed to be investigating something totally separate. so there's a the lot we don't know. there are mechanisms to deal with this including the inspector general review. i hope and i suspect that's happening now. but i think john durham as special counsel is to be supervised by the attorney

general, who is merrick garland. garland under the special counsel regulations has the power to discipline and fire john durham and before doing that, he should hear from durham about what he actually did and what happened. garland has the power to demand a special report about what durham was doing. he has to wru a report and explain himself. if he can't, he should be disciplined and/or fired. that's the way this should be handled. i sure hope that's what garland does in the weeks to comp. i do have a question for michael. i'd love your view on what you think changed for district attorney bragg? he came into office and poured water on this investigation that you and so many other people brought receipts and made it pretty ironclad, at least to us lay people on the outside.

so is bragg just engaged in a pr offensive? is this real? is it just a reaction to mark pomeranz's book? what do you think is going on? >> i don't want to into the substance of my conversations with the team at the da's office. a what i would say is i think it's an issue of time. i really do. now of course, we all want to see this investigation moving forward. we want it to see it moving forward just about a year ago. it didn't happen. okay. going back to the transportation a analogy, it's on the tarmac. let's put it that way. >> but let me stop you for one second. putting my former government hat on, it's the easiest thing in the world to say i need more time. i'm not sure one way or the other. i'm not judging this a at all. it's a big investigation. there's a lot of documents. a lot of complexity, witnesses

and otherwise. just give me some time. that's not what bragg did. whatever he did was enough that he led two main investigators and prosecutors to leave the team. >> let's not forget, again, who the defendant in that case would be. i think that that possibly played some sort of a factor in this as well. >> what do you mean by that? >> i don't think he wanted to lose coming in as the very first case that he maybe working on. >> but that doesn't make any sense. bragg won his cases. . the evidence is such that no one has lost. >> right. >> let me assure you it's a pretty easy thing. you almost have to try to lose a case against donald trump. >> so i don't know why brg agg did the way he did. at the same time, i can tell you that right now, the entire team

are dedicated. they are professional. they know their information. as they say, better late than never. >> neil, what do you think happened? >> i don't have the benefit of 15 separate meetings with the district attorney, but i have to say when the district attorney -- i have no problem with public officials saying they need more time. especially new ones elected to office, that's the responsible thing to do. the last thing you want to do is rush into this. but it's been a long period of time. this ramped up investigation just miraculously happens to be at the same time as the pomeranz book. to me, it's just a little troubling. i hope there's some new evi evie out there that the district attorney has found, which will explain why there's been a change. it's troubling.

>> michael can't talk about the evidence, but you and i can. what's laid out in the pomeranz book in 265 really well-reasoned, researched and sort of corroborated pages that include his conversations with you, ask then an extensive effort, he believes you entirely, but he was cognizant of the need to bring the receipts. i think congress did the same thing. so the book goes through all that. but it culminates in his belief that the criminal case was there to be brought. and especially around the financial documents. he compares trump to john goody. we're talking about don't shoot at the kung and miss. everyone compares him to a mobster. jim comey, mark pomeranz. what's the disconnect in people

say you can't shoot at him and miss. and people that investigate him and say it's like looking into a mob family. >> again, alvin bragg is a political actor. this will be the singular issue in his reelection. it's hard for the rest of us to consider there's a single jurisdiction that decides whether or not alvin bragg is the da that continues the investigation and perhaps prosecution of the former president. but that's the case. and the conversation between michael and neil is a reflection of this pivot that alvin bragg maybe make pg. the notion that you're going to give a free pass to the former the president of united states when the evidence is clearly there based on the spirit of the law. if his argument is going to be under the four corners of the law, ien couldn't bring it, in that case, you're kind of a failed da. if we all know that the spirit of the lu suggests that donald trump is guilty, your as an elected da -- >> and tish james has thrown the book at him.

>> it's unfair to put them side by side. >> but same body of evidence. >> same body of evidence, same public scrutiny. alvin bragg is feeling it. >> one other thing. it's not just that bragg is comparing to james. every single day, brag's office is indicting people left and right for offenses based on far less evidence and putting people in jail for years. it seems like bragg has made a bunch of decisions that have led one person because he was the former president to be treated differently. i hope that will change with all my heart, and that the same rule book that applies to you and me will be applied to donald trump. >> can't we say then that the southern district of new york did exactly the same thing?

and again, talking about having an inspector general take a look at this matter, the weaponization of the justice department against me for the sole purpose of infringing on my constitutional rights, what's happened so far? you have senator durbin putting a a request to the i. gflt for the irs because nobody could understand how a guy who is a first time tax offender that it was really not tax evasion, it was a tax omission. my cpa made a terrible muscle take and i paid the consequence. and you have hakeem jeffries sent it to another did the asking for documents. so did steve cohen and congressman maloney. there's seven different of letters to various different agencies inside government asking for information so that they can follow up. so far, let's go back to hakeem jeffries. two and a half years and not a single piece of paper.

we're not even sure if an investigation has been opened. this is the problem with government. >> why duoyou think that is? >> because they are hiding the facts. it opens up a pandora's box into just how incompetent justice department is and worse than that, it's all about protecting i guess the integrity of the presidency, despite the fact that the president that was occupying the oval office is as corrupt as they come. >> we'll be having this conversation for a long time. you want to thank you, neil, for helping us navigate through what if you're not a prosecutor, feel two totally desperate reads on the same set of evidence. i want to encourage people to read the book before they tweet about it. 265 pages that are just fulled with evidence and facts, no retribution, no political

attacks, it's a fascinating addition to our understanding of what it's like to sift through the evidence around donald trumps's potentially criminal enterprise. thank you for for that. >> thank you. . >> michael cohen, thank you for being here. we need to set up a shuttle. david, stick around. up next for us, stunning revelations from a new report giving new details about the behavior the officers who beat and killed tyre nichols in memphis last month, and what we didn't know happened the night that he was beaten that would lead to his death. that's next. aten that would lead to his death. that's next.

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low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. the push for police reform was front and center last night on capitol hill during president biden's state of the union address. several lawmakers wore black buttons with the year 1870 on it calling attention to the first known police officer culling of an unarmed black person in the united states. members of congress also gave a long standing ovation to the parent tyre nichols. they were in attendance last night, one month after losing their 29-year-old son, who was baten and killed following a confrontation with memphis police officers. president biden's push to pass police reform comes as we learn more horrific details about that night. i'm not sure we'll call it a

confrontation much longer. documents show one of the officers involved in the beating took a photo of nichols while he was bloodied and beaten and propped up against the police car. after he took the photo, he text it to at least five people. violating department policy, among other things. live for us in memphis is antonia hylton is back. eddie joins us, the chair of african-american studies at princeton university. david is still with us. antonia, stel tel me how this piece of reporting fills in some of the flashing yellow lights around the horrific tragedy. >> reporter: those lights might be red at this point. the community here has just been in shock. i spent all day at one of the most popular restaurants called arcade. it's the oldest restaurant here that's been serving regulars here forever. and people were strugging to

come to terms with this news. the documents are incredibly illuminating because they establish a sort of pattern of behavior, aggressive behavior on the scene, but also a lack of transparency and honesty as paperwork was filed after the fact. and officials reading these dlts implicated all the officers in this. one of the things i found interesting is they drew a contrast between their conduct and the conduct of tyre nichols, who was at points using lang walk like please, asking what did i do. the officers get out of the car and started speaking to him in an unprofessional and aggressive manner, using language i can't repeat on tv. they call out some of the officers, such as the officer who claimed that tyre nichols had reached for his gun. there's no evidence for that in the video at all. and then they describe that not only did he write this in the initial report, but when vrgt investigators gave him the

opportunity to tell the truth, he chose to lie again. there are these patterns of behavior established, but it's what you mentioned there. the photographs take of tyre nichols slumped over, beaten to a pulp, waiting for medical care, taken not just to members of the department not there on the scene, but to other unnamed community members who don't have any connection to police work at all. that has really shaken people here to their core. a word that kept coming up today as i was talking to people was that this is just evil. for them, it underscored coming out of having watched the state of the union, the urgent need for them for police reform. most of the people in this city, it's a middle class city. there are a lot of people who have family members on the police force, in the fire department who are ems workers, they don't have any interest in vilifying everyone. but they want there to be a real legislative package now and they don't want tyre nichols' death to be in vain. so some of the solutions was can we simply ban plain clothes

officer work. should officers wearing these kinds of units be doing traffic stops at all. can there be a record that's easily accessible by the public so they can look at officers histories, hold them accountable and move into local level to remove people who have a history of this kind of behavior. what we're seeing is this document now that sheds light on what happened that night, but this is coming on the heels of nbc news and all other news agencies getting access to other min straugtive records that show many of these officers had a history of use of force issues, had histories of not properly filling out paperwork, so there were signs ahead of time and the community is incredibly angry about that. it feels for people that are struggling to get a chance to fully grieve what happened because there's a new pieces of information, a question about how much people should have known and they are at a point now of needing to see action. you'll see people watching carefully as biden and advisers go around the country preparing

to kick off his next stage of his campaign, what are you really going to do about this now? that's the question we keep hearing here. >> i don't want to skim over these revelations last night. i want to understand what you understand about why after -- first of all, is there any evidence this was a traffic stop? has there bye-bye any evidence centered into the public sphere that's what this was? >> reporter: not yet. we have nothing on video yet that implies that. it becomes clear investigators seem to the not have information about this either. they even note at one point the officers never told tyre nichols what he was being arrested or what this was even about. they don't have any record of that at all. and it raises questions when it goes become to moments when i and other reporters were here, going to press conferences and asking, you have charged them with aggravated kidnapping, which suggests to us that a at

sol point this stop became illegal. was it illegal from the beginning? hen didn't answer the question clearly. i can tell you now as we start to understand more about the beginnings of this, there's a real question as to whether this stop was ever legal in the first place. >> let me ask you this. what does the community believe the photo was taken and disseminated for? >> it's a delicate conversation here. it's one in which there's still a lack of information. i will do my best to break what's happening here on a person to person level down. for weeks now, there's been rumors in this community, questions about did one of these officers know tyre nichols. why did this traffic stop begin in such a violent and aggressive manner? we don't understand how it began. so there's been theories passed around, names tossed around, we think this officer might have

known him, none of that has been confirmed. the reality is the family, their attorney have come forward and say out of respect for our grieving, for his life, don't spread these rumors until more information comes out in a legitimate fashion. please don't just keep spreading these rumors around on social media. so peel have started to respect that. can tell you already the fact that one of the officers took these photos and took it upon himself to send them out on his own personal cell phone to people who weren't involved with police work, stst tarting to kick up some of these questions. we don't know about this. there's nothing to substantiate any relationship, what it does underscore for people is what kind of behavior, what kind of culture was allowed to fester here. how did we get to pint where people are being so dehumanized where the people involved in

this don't seem to recognize tyre nichols as a person in these interactions. that they would share pictures of this violence, a picture of someone in the state we all see in that video, other community members around here, that's the focus now. the question the family still has. there's an open door to additional charges, whether it's for these officers facing additional chaurges for their actions as investigators find out more about how they filed reports, the way they carried themselves, but also there's seven other unnamed employees in the police department who are under investigation right now. and who may themselves, whether it's they lose their jobs or they are removed from the streets for awhile or end up facing serious felony charges from this da, the door is open for all of that. and this community is waiting. it feels like every couple days yorks find out more information about how this is expanding. it's not a case of the five bad apples, but perhaps there's a question that this community needs more answers a about.

so i'm hearing people ask for the police chief to come forward and answer some questions because people the to know more. >> you have not provided reporting on this story that has failed to make every hair on my body stand up. we are so grateful for you for being our eyes and ears as this story becomes more harrowing. thank you so much for spending time with us. don't go anywhere. with us don't go anywhere.

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only from unitedhealthcare. eddie and david are still here. you and i have been having this conversation since this happened. what are your thoughts about what we now understand? to be even more depraved conduct as it pertains to tyre. >> i thought the report is just amazing. now that we know that the officer took a photo, she used the language of dehumanization. the photograph sending it around is evidence of that. think about it. it was almost as if he was taking a photo of a kill, like having an 8-point buck and his shot next to him. it sounds as if the officer would put the head of tyre on a plaque and put him on the wall. that's the kind of dehumanization we're experiencing here. and we have to put it in the context of the culture of

policing that would put police on the hunt and to celebrate the kill. that's what that represents for me. >> in the break i said the same thing at the table. i wonder if you're confident that all the facts will emerge and we'll have the truth about how this came to pass. >> i'm not confident. there's nothing in our past to suggest we ought to be confident. the blue wall of silence is real really. we need to unpack what that means in all its detail. it's from the paperwork filed from the description of the event and the encounter from the people who back up the description. the blue wall of silence is real. and also we need to understand what president biden tried to do. he tried to thread a needle. he said two things that were really important. he said everyone believes in equal justice under the law. that's a covenant among americans. we know that's not true historically. and he says those people who act wrongly need to be held accountable. so we need to live up to equal

justice under the law, and we need to end unqualified immunity if we're going to hold them accountable. we have to see if we follow through. >> harry dunn said too me when the story broke that sometimes i asked for advice and how we're covering the story. sometimes it's about squarely race and police and sometimes you can focus on just the police part and perhaps the ability to focus more intently on the police piece is one of the things we could do here. do you believe that's happening or will happen? >> sometimes i think that can't happen here. it's easier for some people to do it now that five black officers are at the center of it. we have to understand race. a report from an occupied territory from 1966 talking about a 47-year-old man whose eye was knocked out buzz he dare question them as they were beating up kids. think a about it. harlem riots, police.

detroit, '67, police. george floyd, police. sterling, police. breonna taylor, police. we know that race is at the center of it. it just makes it easier for us to focus on the police because it ab solves us of dealing with what's at the heart of it all and that's the dehumanization of particular meshes in this society. >> this conversation must be continued. thank you for being here. next for us, we'll do something we wrote off, something we swore off. we'll show you and a talk about sarah huckabee sanders because she made a decent point last night. we'll show you, next. we'll showt

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the dividing line in america is no longer between right or left. the choice is between normal or krauz sit. >> i know, i know. i promised i would never do that. it's 5:00 in new york. years ago we made a promise with all of you. we promised and we held to it, we would not air sarah huckabee sanders from behind the podium as she served as the chief spokeswoman. but we just showed you a snippet, the one true thing she said during last night's gop response to president biden's state of the union address, because ironically, she makes a

fantastic political point. the choice in our politics, the choice that viewers saw in november is between normal and crazy. only she's got it mixed up. it's not the way she thinks. on one side are democrats, and while they are not perfect, they function in good faith as legislators and public servants. even if you don't agree with the policy agenda, they are as a party trying to improve the lives of as many americans as they can. they are working unaided by republicans to defend our democracy and protect the right to vote in america. and in their debates, even amongst themselves, they are huing to the facts as they are largely agreed to be without the benefit of a media arm that's rooted in such audacious lies that's being sued for more than $1 billion right now today. on the other side is the current republican party, which has made a clear choice. it has opted not to govern, but to embrace political extremism.

it has elevated the most radical and insane members of its own party with the new house majority and fed into and fuelled and created culture wars to appeal to the base. all of this was on full stark, brilliant horrifying display last night. and her speech sarah huckabee sanders echoing her ex-president's speech. she made baseless and far-fetched claims about president biden and referenced woke fantasies of the left. sanders' crusade against the democrat was all the more jarring since it followed an unbelievably appalling performance by members of her party at the state of the union last night. last night during president biden's address, republicans acted like the drunk guy at theened end of the bar. they heckled, they yelled, they

jeered at president biden. on more than one occasion, speaker kevin mccarthy, now having to sit prominently in the camera shot behind president biden, was the mom in church. shushing members of his own caucus. it was a republican party showing the american people, millions of them, exactly who they want to be. exactly who they are. which brings us to what happened today on capitol hill. rather than trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube or focusing on issues that the vars vast majority of americans care about, they held their first hearing and it focused on the favorite boogie man, hunter biden and his laptop. they heard testimony from executives at twitter for what the committee characterizes as a social media platform's role in suppressing the story as part of its investigation into the

president's son. ranking member rast convince slammed his republican colleagues for choosing this to hold a hearing about. >> last night in the state of the union address, overall the heckling, president biden reviewed significant achievements his administration and congressional democrats are delivering for the american people. this morning we return not to focus on advancing this robust agenda progress, but instead to take up a an authentically trivial pursuit all based on the obsessive victimology of right wing politics. they have tried to whip up a foe scandal and their ability to spread propaganda on a private media platform. silly does not begin to capture this obsession. >> to one can say it better than he can. the silly and radical obsessions of today's gop is where we begin the hour. cornell belcher is here.

plus msnbc political analyst matt dowd is back. and joining us onset former congressman max is here. what did you think? >> what an unbelievable evening. it had everything. first of all, you saw front and center the way in which the extremists in the republican party do not care about any of the norms in congress or any institution. there was a time not too long ago where when one member of congress yelled, you lie to president obama, it was national news. we still talk about it today. last night it looked like it was wwe. it was insane. but every president has a super a power. and joe biden showed what his super power is to be above the fray. to play this strategy he goated them and brought it back to the middle to talk about his own victories, which by their nature are bipartisan. and every single time --

>> we had infrastructure week scheduled every week for four years. >> in a normal time, things that the democrats and republicans would be cheering for, they are going to the ribbon cuttings, as he said in perhaps his most memorable line of the evening, but i also think this was an eye towards what the next two years should be about if they run an effective, strong, bold presidential campaign, which is constantly bringing it back to those bread and butter issues that people care about around the kitchen table and ignoring the whackiness of the cultural issues and efforts to drag the conversation there. towards this narrative of disdain and alienation and a complete ignorance towards anything that has to do with

policymaking. >> let me disagree on one thing. i don't think that biden benefitted from staying above the fray. i thought he excelled by getting down in the mud and saying, yeah, what? and engaging with that. because what voters rejected and what we heard out of the mouths of pennsylvania republican voters was i can do it. i can pull the trigger. and whacko birds took their moment in the sun. they are so crazy that mccarthy is either shushing them or can't make eye contact. so the president president is looking over a at marjorie taylor greene, she was one of the screamers. mccarthy is looking like the sun is falling on the other side. he can't look away or something will happen. the discord on the right was to joe biden's extreme political benefit. >> he did not stoop down to

their level nor did anyone in the party. if you saw what he was doing in the run up, he was saying i'm not going to rip up the speech. he was saying i want to work together. you want to focus on the american people, not partisan visit yeel, only to waft leaders in his own party in front of national audience only to watch them do exactly the opposite. what we all keep on thinking about the republican party right now is one day they are going to wake up and say, we have 18 members right now in biden districts. we ran in the districts that we won in, we rabbit on inflation and tried to talk about meat and potato issues. why don't we center our agenda around that. but every single day, it comes back to twitter, it comes back to hunter biden, it comes back to culture war. and that's a losing strategy. plain and simple. it's idiotic.

it's politically naive. >> you want to talk about the crimes of political incompetence. to me, they were so stark. they were the story last night. i think that the fact that the line in the speech that makes them start screaming, that gets them so worked up they could no longer control their bodily functions and they are standing and cupping their mouth to be heard and they are screaming, it's all about cutting social security and medicare. and i thought the way biden tied a bow on it, fine, it's settled. it was just brilliant. and i wonder if you think that it's staeb sustainable. to take what happened last night and tell a story for the next two years that what republicans are so skaured you'll find out is that some of them want to cut social security and medicare. >> well, yeah. today acontracts the country, the president has receipts for it.

he has republicans' policy book on talking about cutting social security and medicare. you want to take a deeper dive and you opened it up, so i'm going to dive into it. that's on huckabee. i was struck by how dark and dystopian and chaotic her vugs of america was. it's as if republicans now see america as go them. it's no longer the city on the hill. i sat there and thought, you know, i didn't agree with reagan on policy, but i agree with his presidency. this party is now as far from the party of reagan as it has ever been. i'm not sure the gulf could ever be shrank. in '83, reagan opened up talking about saying he wanted to talk about what we can do as a republic, not as republicans or

democrats, but as americans. and leaning in on this american exceptionalism that every good president has and leads into. i thought you saw president biden leading into that. and the counter was a party that is so far from that reagan ideal of city on a shining hill and a party that feeds into this dystopian place of chaos and anger and victimization. it's a dark, dark america. it's a republican party that quite frankly i don't recognize anymore. it scares me. >> let me stay on this. i think that there's so much to say. one was for someone who in the trump white house was viewed as one of the adults in the room, she made her political

inexperience abundantly clear. millions of people were watching, and the speech started with some powerful personal anecdotes about how she just survived cancer. thank god she did, about her young family and her own milestone of achieving her political goal of succeeding her father and become the governor of arkansas. and it's like when you change the channel, but you don't know you sat on it and changed it and we're watching the batman. it's so incredible. it's stuff like smoke from the pipe of the fever pitch, not even really every of day on fox news, but from the bottom -- it's not even always on twitter. it's the bottom of the reddit right wing lunacy. she has this great personal story. she's pulled us in but surviving her own health crisis. we're kind of there.

then the channel gets switched and we're watching batman from h ell. because the people into that stuff, they know where to find it. they are main lining it. people she should be talking to are the people i don't know about the biden/harris agenda it was political malpractice like i have never seen on a national stage. >> she missed an opportunity. this was a speech that if you ask me was a speech for trump. it wasn't a speech for middle america. if you look at what was problematic about why was there not a red wave, and you had a lot of the suburbs turning, especially women voters, turning on the republican party. it was an opportunity to at least make a case to them. instead, she painted a picture of america that they reject. no one wants other than, quite frankly, the carnage that trump

wants. to me, she was having a conversation for and with donald trump. s no with the vast majority of americans. >> it's weird because he's not believed to be busy. she could have just called him. what's amazing to me is you can't undo that. you can't then come out and be like, wait, republicans are going to be our hope and future and opportunity. and i wonder if because biden seized all that. he was on the side of the 80% of the public in the vast majority of everything he said. even down to all those bs thieves that show up on your credit card. he almost boxed them out of everything that's popular. >> i think this is an important topic because what i think it underlines, as well as tonya harding in a fur coat last night screaming at joe biden, there she is. i'm surprised she didn't have

somebody go after somebody with ice skates. it underlies that they don't care about leading the american public. they have given up on that. and sarah huckabee sanders' speech, i think she intently did what she did because they no longer care about where the majority of the country stands. they only care about this cave of crazy that they live in, and that's all they circulate in. they only talk to media that reenforces the crazy. they only associate with people that reenforce this sort of dominant christian nationalism that sarah huckabee sanders is pushing. and so at this point in time, joe biden still is of the mind of i'm supposed to lead all americans. i'm supposed to speak to all americans. i'm supposed to figure out how do we bring the country together. sarah huckabee sanders and most

of the republican party has decided to jet san that traditional idea you're supposed to lead everyone. my guess is, and i have spent a lot of time in arkansas, sarah huckabee sanderss' speech last night doesn't even appeal to a majority of all arkansasens in this. but they don't care about that anymore. they have decided that this culture this they want to retain or go back to or whatever it is, that they want, which is monolithic in its way, and i also found it fascinating that in the course of her speech, she blamed the culture war on the left in this. when all the left wants to do is say cant we all have a multiple of cultures where everybody is accepted and we treat everybody with decency. those words send sarah huckabee sanders crazy. they don't want multiculture, they want one culture and. and one culture that's the same

culture that's been along. i think it does underline a point that the republican party no longer has leaders that the to lead the state, the country or a community as a heal whoel. they only want to lead the small group of people that reenforce the crazy every day of the week. >> matt dowd, i actually thought for all of that, the most egregious thing that happened in the context of what we have come to understand about one of the ugliest and darkest chapters of trump's presidency was the love story she tells at the end about the military and trump as commander-in-chief. i say this just on facts. i'm sure there are people in the military who love them. i'm not taking that away from them. it's a free country. it's healthy to respect the commander-in-chief. but in the context of the vast body of reporting that emerged, it was broken in "the atlantic", my husband writes about general kelli's concerns, mike bender

reports on this. the body of reporting that has emerged is that trump viewed men ask women who died in service of these united states of america and the first and second world war and the wars in iraq and afghanistan as suckers and losers. that's a quote. it's also been reported and corroborated that he didn't want to appear with men and women who had been injured in service of this country. it's the most not just un-american thing about him, it's the most disqualifying thing about someone who is currently running to be president in 2024. >> i'm glad you brought that up. to me, that underlines something so gaping in the integrity of sarah huckabee sanders, which i think we all know. i love her personal story, but we all know that once she was put under oath, she admitted to lying throughout the trump presidency. we all know where she stands. but donald trump thinks of the

military and thinks of anybody that goes into public service for service reasons is a joke. donald trump thinks anybody that serves the public, not sol sort of grift or to raise their name or affect their brand, not to have some adoring following, he thinks is a joke. that's why he looks down at the military, as he did john mccain. the other part of that story that's so weird, to me, she made this huge point of we need a new generation of leadership. we need a new generation of leadership. which i 24i think is a very value ud statement to make. but the story she tells goes back to trumpville. like what does that have to do with the new generation of leaders that we're now going back to crazy trumpville. so that's, to me, i'm going to say this again. when all you do is circulate in the cave of crazy, when you say stuff like that, you think it's normal when it's crazy.

>> i think what the kids say is you've got to get out more. thank you for being here at the table. to be continued. thank you for starting us off. sglrvelgs when we come back, how a federal judge in texas nominated by the ex-president could block medical abortion access for the entire country. even those living in blue states. it's a decision reproductive rights advocates have been warning a about and could come as early as this week. we'll tell you about it. also a grim milestone as we approach five years since the deadly and tragic shootding at marjory stoneman douglas. president biden urging congress to ban assault weapons. our good friend fred gutenberg will be our guest at the table later in the hour. don't go anywhere. don't go anyw.

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two days after the bill went into effect, i was like, no. and started figuring out what are my options. we now have to add this extra thing to our arsenal of having plan c. so having a self-managed abortion medication in our medicine cabinet. >> after the supreme court stripped away the constitutional right to an abortion, abortion medication has become a lifeline for women where access is banned. now a brand new lawsuit seeking to revoke fda approval to take it away for abortion medication

is going through the courts. it could come as early as this week. the "washington post" reports that in recent weeks, abortion rights advocates in the biden administration have grown concerned that the case is likely to be decided entirely by conservative judges, who might be eager for a chance to restrict abortion access, even in democratic-led states where the procedure has remained legal since the fall of roe v. wade. this would not only be harmful in states where abortion is banned, it would have a nationwide impact. 53% of abortions are medically induced. it's also an important tool in treating miscarriages, which seem the not to be any concern for activists of today, who have advocated stripping out health of the mother exceptions to their extreme abortion bans,

despite women miscaring already suffering complications. while the legal arguments behind the attempt to revoke fda approval are rare, it has never stopped conservative judges before. one a advocate warns us of this. i don't think it's a stretch at all, same amy miller, a network of abortion clinics with locations across several states including texas, before the stream court ruling triggered a law banning all abortions there. i have a lot of experience with these crazy legal theories that sound radical in texas actually becomeing reality. let's bring in cecil richards, former president of planned parenthood. and katty cay, an msnbc critter. first, just for anyone that doesn't understand, explain how important these medicines are

and what a lifeline they are for all women seeking reproductive health care. >> sure. i think what's really important to start out with is that the drug was approved by the fda more than 20 years ago. it is completely safe. it's safer than tylenol. and it is widely used. so this entire lawsuit is baseless on anything related to medical care. it's completely politically motivated and they have chose a judge in amarillo, who was a trump appointee, who came straight from a religious right law firm on to the federal bench. as you say, the real impact of this is so important to understand because a majority of access to abortion in this country is now through medication abortion, particularly since the dobbs decision. if this judge, again, who was not only put on by donald trump but was approved completely on

partisan lines by the republican party, if this judge now goes after fda approval, it would mean you cannot access the medication in any state, including new york, california, massachusetts, all the states that have strong provisions for access to safe and legal abortion. it will be dvastating for women in this country. >> cecil, i'm just brought back to august of last year when we're having the conversation about texas' vigilante law. all of the dystopian scenarios, the fever dreams of the far right for limiting women's access to health care seem to be birthed in the laboratory of ideas of moving the whole country in that direction. how has this gotten this far? >> i think it's gotten this far. and you have i have talked about this, the republican party has

decided they are willing to trade away the rights that people in this country had to make decisions about their pregnancy or short-term political gains. and that's what's so disturbing when you look at the record of this judge in particular where the case has been brought, he was opposed by so many organizations. he was against the birth control coverage under obamacare. he's against lgbtq rights. and yet every single republican senator in this country voted to confirm him. so now what we're just seeing is the result of that, of a republican party that's been completely captured by the extreme right. we just saw last week 20 republican attorneys general in this country file and go after cvs and walgreens for stocking this medication. there is no end to this until

the republican party comes back to a rational party that understands that people and not politicians should be able to make their decisions about pregnancy. >> my last question, the politics of this are so clear. they are so stark. they are hideous. 93% of all americans, which includes a majority of all republicans too, oppose these really reinstructive bans that eliminate the exceptions for life of the mother. upwards of 80% oppose the bans that eliminate the exceptions in cases of rape and incest. 67% of americans supported roe and oppose the supreme court decision. if those numbers don't break the political ferveer and the taking over by the extremists on this policy profile, what will? >> i think two things. one is we have to continue to tell the stories, as you have on this show, of what the impact is

for everyday americans. the horrifying stories of women miscaring and not being automobile to get access to emergency room care. the list goes on and on and on. and the republican party has to continue to lose elections. we saw that in the midterms. they lost cases in michigan, pennsylvania, arizona, nevada, and they are about to head into a presidential election and lose that one as well. if they don't wake up and realize what they are doing is not only extreme and it's terrible for women's health, but it's also not supportive by the american people. >> so america has become an outlier. maternal mortality in america is well below what it is in most europe countries. if anyone watching thinks this wouldn't affect them, these are the numbers of people seeking information to plan c. a campaign that offers information ask resources on medical abortions and abortion

pills said their web traffic after roe fell was up 2,000% from the week before from 20,000 weekly visitors to nearly 500,000 that week. this is one of the last remaining ways women can access abortion health care in america, and it is under threat by conservative republican judges. >> yeah, it was pretty clear after roe v. wade was overturned last june this would be the next step in the abortion fight. it used to be on the republican side, it was enough to say that you were pro life. now you have to be pro a national federal ban. the activists on the antiabortion front seem to be shufting the politicians even further to the right, even though you have somebody like

donald trump after the midterms coming out and saying that republicans misplayed the abortion issue and that they should have stressed that there were exemptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother. that's why they were so damaged in the midterm elections. but think the poll tugss are being pulled to the right by the activists and there doesn't seem to be a check on it except for you have this overwhelming numbers of the american public who are in favor of abortion. which is a huge number. and that's really where the american public is. how many losses does it take for that to impact republican leadership. >> the elephant in the room is the fact that the united states supreme court long ab mating has become a political dead weight, which is 7% of all americans

having a great deal of confidence in the u.s. supreme court. what do you make of that a as just a new tech tonic plate that's shifted even more in the post trump era? >> it's not just on abortion rights. there are a host of issues on which this supreme court is not in step with even the majority of republicans on issues like gun control as well as abortion. they are out of step with where the majority of republicans and certainly the majority of americans. if it you look at what happened in the mud term elections, it was really in the states where abortion was on the lieutenant in critical issues like referendum like michigan. it was such a galvanizing issue politically not just the referendum, but that dragged a whole host of democrats into power as well. it's hard to imagine that a at sol point republicans won't stand up to somebody like one of

the a.g.s in kansas that's trying to stop workers from sending pills into post and say this is a losing strategy for us it's going to be really interesting to see when this get to a battle between desantis and trump, trump has said we can't be as draconian on this as some of the activists are being. what does he say if he's up against desantis, who seems to be more in favor of a federal ban on abortion. i don't see how those debate sessions pan out between those two people. >> it will bring our focus to how extreme the republican party is if this played out in the primary. thank you so much for spending time with us on this story. it's really important. to be continued. shifting gears for us here the at the table. it's hard to believe, but we are nearing five years since the horrific and tragic parkland school shooting. since then, we have frequently turned to our good friend fred gutenberg, whose daughter was killed that day.

today fred is right here in new york s and he will join us at the table in a minute. don't go anywhere. e will join u the table in a minute. don't go anywhere. ake trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today.

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is. he thought he was going to die, but he thought about the people inside. and that is he found the courage to act and wrestle the pistol away the gunman who already killed 11 people.

he saved lives. it's time we do the same. ban assault ep weapons now. ban them now. once ask for all. >> banning assault weapons is the next frontier in the gun safety movement in america following passage of the sweeping firearms legislation back in june. do not count on a helping hand from republicans, many of whom have taken to wearing assault rifle lapel pins instead of american flags. in that very psalm chamber. that grotesque fashion choices will not deter gun advocates. next week makes it five years since the horrifically tragic parkland shooting. joining us is our dear friend

fred guten berg, whose daughter was killed at marjory stoneman douglas. he's the co-author of the new book "american carnag." it is now available for preorder. it's so nice to have you here. >> i'm actually thrilled to be with you here in person finally. >> you always make me cry. when we talked about the fact you would be here today, i said to my team, i remember everything about the day that jamie died. i remember everything. it happened when my colleague katy tur was on the air. when i was coming onset, it was one of two days i didn't think i could do this. the other was uvalde. >> you're a parent. >> i find it's a part of my brain that can't process what you have lost. >> next week is going to be five years. it feels like five minutes.

my wife says all the time that it doesn't feel different. and i keep trying to tell my wife and my son, we are going to be okay. we are okay. we have to be. but my daughter is still not a part of our life. and a way we get to collect new pictures and videos and memories and visits and college. and yet we see just last night the despicable half of our government, which doesn't give a crap. >> i thought of you last night not just in this section, but the president had guests whose girl fought cancer. the dad said, if you go, i don't want to stay. and i wonder what -- i just

wonder on grief, it swallows so many people whole. you have become an international icon in your activism for gun safety. how? >> well, a, it's part of how i get through my grief. doing this because of a dad i don't want to meet because his daughter didn't get shot is what i live to do every day now. because of what happened to my family. grief is different for everybody. some people go into a shell. others find the ability to push forward and do things that they never thought they could do. i have become extremely political. my wife has started doing things far more often to honor my daughter's life and memory and

things like our new paws of love, giving out companion dogs to families affected by gun violence. we each find our way. but we have to be okay. >> are we going to be okay with the proliferation of guns in america, the proluf ration of sadness and loneliness, something that you have talked about. and the intractable nature of our politics. >> think last night was really strange for a lot of reasons. a, because you saw in the stark contrast president biden and the democrats hopeful and optimistic with a vision really want thing to talk care of the safety of americans. and another side that was just dark. looking at kevin sitting there

behind the president, when the president is talking about gun violence that took the lives of people like my daughter, it's infuriating. but i choose to focus on the side that has hope that tells us we are able to do more. and because we will do more, we will save a life. so it ain't easy. it's not going to be easy. but we have to defeat the lie accounts of marjorie taylor greene. all the crazy. they are crazy. and kempb who enables that. >> i think you always draw it back to what freedom means. you also taught us that while the mass shootings are the things that end up on the news, people are affected by gun violence every day. >> mass shootings are actually not the most common way people get killed because of gun violence. but the most common is suicide.

and when people talk about mental health and gun violence, that's the part that we really need to be focusing on. but the everyday gun violence, and gun violence in all its types isn't just about those who are killed like my daughter. it's about those who survive like myself, my wife and my son, who has to live. he's 22 now. he was 16 then. he will forever have to live with what happened. there are communities and families across america who understand what i'm saying. so when we talk about gun violence, i just hope we always capture the big picture and not just the numbers who were killed. >> we have to sneak in a break, but we'll have that conversation. it was your son's experience that's part of what we're going to join us next. you're not going anywhere. when we come back, the congressman whose own son was hiding in a nearby school during

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a man, his family, and his tractor, penny. these are the upshaws. and this is their playground. there's a story in every piece of land, run with us on a john deere tractor and start telling yours. joining our conversation, jared moskowitz. he gave an emotional speech earlier today on capitol hill about a moment that unites him with fred forever. it's also mentioned in fred's book, "find the helpers: what 9/11 taught me about recovery,

purpose and hope." tell me the story that unites you guys. >> thanks, nicolle. on february 14th, as i was, you know, traveling home because i was on the floor of the state house when the shooting happened at my high school, my wife called me and said that, you know, sam was at preschool. they were on lockdown. my initial response was, you know, go and get him, and i would later find out obviously that 17 people didn't make it out of the building, most of them children, and sam was in a writing class because he's 4 years old, and we were trying to teach him how to write his name, and that clas was taught by jen guttenburg who worked with kids who struggled with their fingers trying to write their name. when we went into lockdown, jen put sam in a closet, which is the protocol kids have to deal with now. while she was with my son at a preschool around the corner from

douglas, her daughter was killed. >> congressman, my son is 11 and has grown up, i think he was 3 when he did his first lockdown drill in school, and i grew up in and i did earthquake drills and that was scary. but nothing compared to how our children are being raised, right, and those are the lucky ones that just drill through it and never live through it. what do you think we owe a generation of children being raised from the age of 3 to learn how to hide in the closet? >> sam doesn't know that story. he doesn't remember it. he doesn't know why he was in a closet. he still doesn't really understand why he goes into a closet when they do their practice drills, you know, but the truth is is that, you know, he was 4 when that happened, five years later next week from the shooting, he's nine. all the kids that didn't make it

out of the building, they're teenagers forever, and the generation of kids that went through that at douglas or went through that at uvalde or went through that at newtown or went through that at countless other places, these kids are traumatized, and the mental health aspects when they go through these tragic events. we really don't yet understand the cost this is going to hold on the generation of kids that have to live with the real life event that they're not safe at school. they're not safe at a movie theater. they're not safe at a grocery store because we allow people to have guns that should never have them in the first place. >> i loved that the president talked about what social media companies are doing to our kids. i wish we could have a conversation about raising the first generation of active shooter drill kids is doing to

our kids. >> it's actually normalized, the idea that they should expect gun violence. that's the crazy thing, and -- >> which is so sick. >> it's so sick. >> at school. >> and it's cost a generation of politicians, many of whom are still in office. again, i go back to kevin sitting behind the president, have allowed it to get to this place. we are now raising a generation of kids who are growing up thinking i have to expect gun violence so i have to be prepared, and certain states that have gone too far off course like texas are now preparing parents even further by sending home dna test kits instead of dealing with gun violence. >> are you optimistic that more can be done? you always give president biden his due for signing into law the most significant piece of legislation in 30 years, but we clearly need more. are you confident we'll do more? >> we must on a national level because unfortunately, you know,

people talk about borders and the border crisis. for me the true border crisis is right here in america between the states. the red states that have permissive gun laws and blue states that are trying to do something about it. i live in a red state that is trying to make it more likely that gun violence will happen. they're actually actively having hearings now to pass deadly legislation. and so it must happen on a national level, and am i hopeful? hell yeah. in the past three elections, we've elected more gun safety people, people like jared who while florida was a disaster, jared got elected and in the next election, you know what? we'll take back the house. we'll hold the senate, and we will keep the presidency, and we can pass legislation. >> it's so nice to have you here. you're coming back with the book, right? >> i will be back with the book in may. >> okay. so nice. thank you for being here. >> thank you, nicolle. >> thank you so much. thank you, congressman, you're welcome to join us at the table too anytime. thank you, both for spending

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starting right now. it was fun last night, right? >> i had a great time. did you have a fun time? >> yes, a fun time was had by all. >> a fun time was had by all, sounds like a santa claus publicist statement, great times. >> have a good show. >> it was interesting. good so see you as always. welcome to "the beat," i'm ari melber. james carville our