the world really believe that they need to form a coalition because they have bought their own propaganda about them representing the quote unquote american people. >> i think that's exactly right. and i've seen people on the left do that in various iterations of my life. on the left and also get submerged underneath impenetrable jargon. it tends to be a real obstacle and getting people to agree with your ideas and move them along. we'll see how all this works out. michelle goldberg, anand giridharadas, thank you both. that's all in on this wednesday night. . >> we're gonna see how it all shakes out. thanks as always, my friend. alex you wouldn't be joining us. i am going to read some reviews of president biden's state of the union last night, and i want you to try and against the source. quote, look, he worked hard tonight, he put into words what he felt and he ended the evening far stronger than he began. give him credit for that.

here's another. quote, his wife jill is looking lovely tonight in a beautiful purple dress. now if you don't know who said this, don't worry about. the answer is really very unlikely. those were both reviews from former president donald trump. and as much as trump also ranted about biden's speech, even he had to admit that last night was a strong night for president biden. not only did biden lay out a vision for how democrats want to change the country but he managed to sort of trick republicans into agreeing with him. there were a few of those moments, but the most notable one was this. >> instead of making the wealthy pay all pay their fe fair share, some republicans want medicare and social security to sunset. i'm not saying it's a majority. let me give you. anybody who doubts it, contact my office. i'll give you a copy. i'll give you a copy of the

proposal. that means congress doesn't vote -- >> as we all apparently agree, social security and medicare is also off the books now. [applause] >> are we good? now last night president biden was diplomatically not naming names as to which republicans have been pushing to sunset medicare and social security. but there are two senators who have been incredibly loud and proud about doing just that. florida senator rick scott and wisconsin senator ron johnson. and they are not just two random senators. senator scott was the head of the national republican senatorial committee last year. he challenged mitch mcconnell for senate leadership literally just months ago and he didn't do it empty-handed. for almost a year now, senator scott has been promoting this big multi point plan to rescue america. he even has a 66-page pamphlet. is it still a pamphlet with 66

pages? i don't know. anyway, you can get it for free, the pamphlet, and explains everything. i have it right here. 66-page pamphlet. on page 36, quite literally it says, all federal legislation sunsets in five years. if a law is worth keeping, congress can pass it again. that's literally something sunsetting. it could rise again, like the sun, but it isn't setting their. okay now, think about the incredibly unnecessary and potentially economy collapsing standoff we may have this year over the debt limit in congress. and then imagine if we had a scenario like that every five years for everything the government does. social security. medicare. medicaid. can you imagine if republicans could hold hostage medical care for seniors? because that has been the sales pitch for the past year, from one of the country's top republicans. wisconsin senator ron johnson, he goes even further. here he is on a local radio show, just last year, when he

was in the middle of a tough reelection fight. >> defense bending his always been discretionary. va spending is discretionary. what is mandatory or things like social security in medicare. if you qualify for the entitlement you just get it no matter what the cost. what we ought to be doing is we ought to turn everything into discretionary spending so it's all evaluated. >> wisconsin senator johnson doesn't just want social security and medicare to meet reef prove all every five years. he wanted to be discretionary funding that has to be approved every single year, which is, wow. now both senator ron johnson and senator rick scott have put out statement saying biden's con comments on social security medicare last night were spin and they realize. and that puts senators johnson and scott in a sort of catch-22. they don't want to call attention to something they campaigned on and that other republicans suggested might be on the table in future debt

ceiling negotiations. and that, that, place is exactly where president biden seems to want them. >> let me ask you first about last night, the state of the union. you were it had a lot of attaboy is from your federal democrats who said you showed energy, you stood up to the republicans. they were yelling at you. some of them are calling you a liar. did you expect that kind of reaction? >> from the folks they did it, i was. the best much majority of republicans are in that way. and a lot of republican stood up last night in clapped. when i pointed out that some republicans talking about leading medicare there say no, no, no. and i said okay, it means all of you are for supporting medicare? everybody razor. hand they all raise their hand. so guess, what we accomplished something. unless they break the word and they cut medicare and social security. >> so yeah, thanks, ron johnson

and rick scott notley republicans who stood up clapping for social security and medicare. we accomplished something. yes. let's go. and just in case there is still any doubt about how much and how hard president biden is going to press this point, he showed up in wisconsin today. senator johnson's backyard. with a copy of senator scott's 66 page pamphlet and print out of senator johnson's statements about sunsetting government benefits. well, okay now president biden. does not stop. there tomorrow biden heads to florida, which is senator scott's backyard. now to be clear, both of these trips were announced before the state of the union. but it all feels almost like a strategy. and the burden is now on republicans. they can admit they support their own wildly unpopular policies, or they can abandon them, which is really kind of an a+ political maneuver from the democrat in this picture. it's not all about spectacularly trolling republicans ahead of any

hostage taking on the debt limit, though. president biden is taking his national show on the road to demonstrate an individual states what democrats can do. in wisconsin today, biden touted the 2.9 billion dollars of federal funding from his infrastructure bills that will fund projects across wisconsin. this is a granular step that shows people actual change in their everyday lives, like funding to replace all the diesel buses in racine wisconsin with electric buses. and replacing the i-39 wisconsin river bridge. there are now tons of soon to be shovel ready projects for president biden to brag about in every state he visits. sort of a national pr blitz, highlighting what democrats are doing and can do and maybe we'll do for americans across the country. and no one is in a better position to help us evaluate how biden's pitch is landing then the newly elected democratic governor of maryland, westmore. governor more is the is only the third black governor in

u.s. history. he is now they at the helm of a new level democratic trifecta, which means democrats in control of the state house, dayton, it and governor's mansion. and maryland at this moment in there was this man in charge has the opportunity to be a democratic laboratory. and also he was at the state of the union last night, that too. joining me now is my friend, marilyn stomach reddit governor, wes moore. its first time i've addressed you as governor and i am tearing up a little bit. it's so good to see. you congratulations on your win. >> thank you. congratulations to you. congratulations to. you >> we did good. our moms are proud. wes, governor more, let's talk a little bit about what happened last night. i think there was a lot of surprise and it may remains unclear how much biden expected to be heckled. but he turned it into a real moment. how long do you think he can

play this strategy? do you think it's going to work? do you think republicans are now in a bind of their own making? >> i think the strategy is going to work because his strategy is just, share facts. there's nothing else to it. when he talks about the reason that the investment matters, and what it means to individual local communities, i can tell you right now, that it matters to the state of maryland, where the president was just here last weekend and in our partnership we announced new construction to the frederick douglass tunnel, which is going to create 30,000 new jobs in the state of maryland. just this past week we were announcing a joint partnership that took place with -- university, one of our for hbcus in the state of maryland that is focusing on broadband equity. a 5 million dollar investment from the federal government. so the investments that are taking place around the country, i can tell you from firsthand experience, is a chief executive of the state of

maryland, they are working. it is helping people to get to work. and that's the reason why we are so excited in partnership to be able to be working with this administration. >> it's like so often these big political speeches are couched in vagaries. big soaring ideas, but what was so interesting about what biden did last night and what he's doing today what you're talking about is the specificity of these projects. whether it's the junk credit card fees he was talking about in the bridges are just appearing in places where diesel buses are gonna be replaced by electric buses. i feel like this is a new model for politicians, which is, bring the change home, and even if it may seem negligible, that matters to people on the ground. seeing the federal government after work improving communities actually bears goodwill. is that the experience you've had, admittedly, in a short time in office, but just hearing from your constituents, how much does it matter for them to literally to see the change on the roads, on their

corners? >> that's exactly right. that's what the electors. for the electors to actually do the work on the ground that is going to have a direct impact. i remember in the first day that i took office, i signed executive orders they did everything from releasing three point $5 million in funding for previously withheld funding for abortion providers in training for abortion providers, because when i said maryland is gonna be a safe haven for abortion rights, i meant it. the day after, i signed an executive order creating platform where maryland will be the first state in this country to offer a service office option for every single high school graduate. that we want all high school graduates to have his chance to have a year of service to the state of maryland. it's both gonna be working with nonprofit organizations and organizations doing the work, but also helping to address the fact that right now in the state of maryland, we have 10,000 vacancies in our state government, which means basic

functions are not being performed. and so i think what we saw from the president or what we're seeing from chief executives around the country is the practical on the ground work that people are requiring in demanding. it is happening. but it means we have to be intentional, aggressive, and stay focused on creating pathways for work, wages, and wealth for all families within our jurisdictions. >> you know, governor, i'm still getting used to it, it's not just, it seems to me, biden laid out a case, the functioning of government isn't just important because of course people want services to work. they want roads don't have potholes. they want to functioning representative government. but it's also this intangible of pride. when people see their communities falling apart, when we can go down the roads, they have to wait in line at the dmv for 1 million hours. there is a loss. those are sort of the minimal

surface aspects of loss of pride in america but he talked so much about pride last night. he and voted i think five times in the course of the speech it seemed to me that he thinks that's central to stitching the country back together, to lost part of the republican party that so filled with grievance. it seems like an all of. grant you rebuild this democracy by making people believe in it, not because functionality is good in efficiency is good but because they then believe in the project of america rich large. and do you agree that the restoration of pride as articulated by the president last night is central to bringing back bipartisanship? i don't want to sound like pollyanna, but i wonder how you read the indication of pride last night. >> i do, and i think he did a great job of showing the pride isn't partisan. pride is patriotic. pride is simply about the fact that we have a fundamental commitment to be able to leave

lead our jurisdictions better than we found them. i know that when we went through our campaign we ended up winning with more individual votes than anyone who would ever run for governor in the history of the state of maryland. the reason why that was important is this. we went everywhere. we didn't just when democrats. we won democrats, independents, and a good chunk of republicans, because you realize that the thing that we were talking about, making sure that we can fully fund the strong public education system, making sure we can have safe streets and safe communities for everybody and people have wright feel safe in their own neighborhoods, in their own communities, in their own skin. making sure that our communities can be more competitive. as a state how we can grow our own businesses. that's not a partisan issue. the beautiful thing we saw last night from the speech is so many of the issues of the president was speaking about, they did not have a partisan tint. it was just simply about the idea, something that i believe and deeply, that if we are

divided, that we have no shot at winning. but if we are united, then we can't lose. that's what he highlighted. that's why i think these policies matter so much. pride is not partisan. pride is patriotic. >> you know, he's gone to wisconsin, he's going to florida, not exactly a democratic hotbed. taking it to republican doorsteps, not to troll rhonda sanders but to say hey i know you didn't vote for me, i know there's a lot here about how -- at the end of the day i'm here to fix things, to make you believe in the project again, seemed super powerful. how do you square that person with the republicans who are heckling the president and painting a picture of the apocalypse on the horizon for america? how do you talk to those people in a moment like this, when the president is trying really hard but is getting screamed at in the state of the union address.

>> i think it was exactly the image of the president wanted. where the president is talking about the policies that can make people, they can make their lives better, that are addressing the very real and very human pain that so many americans are feeling, both in urban, rural, in suburban areas. and then you have another group who is perfectly fine being in the opposition, but are not coming up with a solution. and i know that what we saw in our race was, when we look to the impacts of the race that we have, we won decisively, but even since then we've spent a good amount of time is the governor where i've been out to western maryland into the eastern shore and a lot of rural areas, places that have not seen a governor visit. i was in one area in western maryland, has not seen a governor visit there since 1996. and the thing that i said people out there, and there were a lot of democrats, we

went out there to go visit last monday. and i said for the people that voted for me, i plan to work to keep you support. and for the people who didn't vote for me, i just ask and i pray that you are for the space and the grace for me to earn your support in the future. i think what president biden is going to show, and what he will continue to show, is we have plans, real plans, and pathways for economic growth for people in our jurisdictions, for people for me in my state, for the president in the country. and understand that the opposition is not providing an alternative. the opposition is just simply being an opposition. and people will pay attention to that. >> marilyn's governor, wes moore. i love saying maryland's governor wes moore. you were always destined for it wes moore, since the day i met. you thank you for coming on this show. please come back all the time, and good luck with everything you're doing in the state. >> bless you. thank you so much.

>> we have lots more to come tonight. the fallout after the rest of the top fbi spy hunter accused of working with the russian oligarch who played a starring role in the mueller report. the accusations against him might even get worse. plus, what's normal? and who's crazy? more on that, just ahead. more on that, just ahead welcome to zulily, a shopping paradise with deals on every scroll. you don't have kids, do you? uh yeah... ♪ but good deals aren't just for kids. there's stuff for you. you look great! so do you... don't forget the house! the house is like a best friend to buy presents for. for the house. save big on the brands you love. zulily. fun is part of the deal.

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>> cnn. is it true that mr. manafort o2 millions of dollars when he was the, when he was the head of the trump campaign? did manafort owe you billions of dollars when he was head of the trump campaign? did he owe you millions of dollars? >> it's for idiots. if you don't understand. >> did he offer private briefings you is a way of trying to repay that dress that debt? >> get lost, please. thank. you >> get lost, please, thank you. the epic brush-off was courtesy of oleg vera pascua, a russian oligarch with very close ties to vladimir putin. if his name sounds familiar it was because it was revealed in 2017 that donald trump's paul manafort owed oleg millions. that will be the same paul manafort indicted by robert mueller's team on a slew of charges, money laundering, fraud, and --

as of aid for a new kane government. manafort offered what oleg's private briefings about the private campaign about a way to get hole with -- the russian oligarch is mentioned in the report 70. times the senate committee had strong suspicions but ultimately never it will become permanent manafort shared internal trump campaign polling data with deripaska via his former business partner konstantin kilimnik who was a russian intelligence agent. to underscore just how close is deripaska to the kremlin, the 2016 senate intelligence report on russian election interference says about him, quote, the russian government coordinates with and directs deripaska on many of his influence operations. it is against that backdrop that the fbi and bounced a stunning and completely shocking arrest late last month of one of its own, of one of

the former most senior officials. charles mcgonigle is one of the chief counter intelligence officials at the fbi new york. the fbi and to unbelievable indictments against him, one of which alleges that shortly after leaving the fbi, mcconnell goal began taking money from oleg deripaska for allegedly trying to get the russian billionaire off the u.s. sanctions list, which was this extremely alarming for a number of reasons. we're talking about someone who served as the chief counter intelligence official at the fbi new york field office, who was tasked with investigating russian election interference in 2016, and we're talking about him allegedly being in cahoots with a sanctioned russian oligarch who is close to putin. as yell historian timothy snyder puts it, in 2016, trump's campaign manager, paul manafort, was a former employee of a russian oligarch, named oleg deripaska and old money to that same russian oligarch. and the fbi special agents, charles mcgonigle, who was charged with investigating the

trump campaign's russian connections went to work, according to the indictment, for that very same russian oligarch. this is obviously very bad for trump personally, but it is also very bad for fbi new york, for the fbi generally, and for the united states of america. at best, the story could just be about plain old greed. and worst, it could plentifully be catastrophic for highly sensitive u.s. government secrets. but there is still so very much we do not know. a new insider report published today sums up the stakes this way. the mcgonigle case is already a bad look for those charged with protecting u.s. secrets. there is a chance it could get much worse. mcgonigle was not charged with espionage, and although there is no currently evans that mcconnell committed espionage, and fbi sources told insider that the investigation is ongoing. joining us now is former fbi general counsel and former senior member of special counsel, robert mueller's team, who knows a thing or two about oleg deripaska, the great andrew weissmann. every time you're on the show

is the perfect time to be on the show. but i trouble mean it tonight. first of all, espionage. they're releasing him on a 500,000 dollar bond with suggest the espionage may not be in the next hearing. how do you read the situation? >> if i were at the fbi, they have to be worried about, is this a counter intelligence case and needing to get to the bottom of. what they need to be scouring every single thing that he touched with the fbi to figure out what's going on. it's important to note, he didn't just leave the fbi and work for deripaska which, as you said, the judgment call there and how you would go from sort of team america to team russia that quickly. the reason he is charged with a criminal case is that that alone is not enough. it's that he disguised his work in a way that it would not be clear that he was violating u.s. sanctions. so there were all sorts of ways that they have, fake companies, they sort of use the money in

different ways to say that he got paid but no one can trace it. well the fbi did trace it. and that's the charge in new york. separately, he is charged with actually committing crimes of a really dangerous nature while he was at the fbi. not after he left, but he was taking hundreds of thousand dollars, according to the indictment, from albanian. 's not only took the money but opened a case on an adversary of the person who is giving him money. >> while he was at the fbi? >> why he was at the fbi. if you are the fbi, where it's filled with honest hardworking people, this is the worst thing ever. to imagine anyone in a workplace where you find out somebody you trust did something. >> and someone high up, as well. not just some low-level agent, as you are saying to me before. >> incredibly high up. to be a special agent in charge new york is one of the preeminent positions. and then to be in the kind of work he was doing gave him

access to everything. so one of the reasons i think that there are two indictments, not one, it's sort of like playing russian roulette with two bullets, not one. it puts a ton of pressure on him to cooperate. so if you are the fbi, you absolutely want to know what information did you pass on to albanian,'s russians, anyone? that is, that has got to be the main focus of chris, ray lisa monaco, merrick garland. >> as of right now, just to be clear, because we didn't talk about the albanian argument in the script. but that happened when he was in the fbi. from what we know right now, he had left the fbi before but maybe he started working for deripaska, but can we be certain of that? like, you know from the manafort case, it takes some time to figure out how someone has been working covertly for a foreign government.

>> absolutely. you do not know from the public record when that relationship started. and if you are oleg deripaska or any oligarch, the idea that you have access and could get information from a high-level fbi agent, that's manner from heaven. and this is sort of spy versus spy. this is what they're going to want. so that issue of when was that relationship? when did it start? and particularly, what was said, that is key. and just to the point, by the way, on the manafort, the polling data, just because you always try your last case, after our investigation was over and biden became president, the dni, the head of the intelligence committee reported that they actually were able to confirm that the polling data went to russia. i mean, we knew that had to be the case, but didn't have the evidence. we couldn't say it. but of course -- would have been killed if he hadn't passed it on. and the person he was supposed

to give it to wise oleg deripaska. >> so people who were like deripaska, clinic, manafort, one of the things people are scrutinizing are the two people that came out in the october of 2016. james comey announced that there was going to be an investigation into clinton's email. they're picking that up. and in part makes this announcement a week before the election because he's worried that the fbi office in new york is going to leak word of it, it's gonna port leagues if comey doesn't do something about. it people are saying wait a second, fbi in new york office? was charles mcgonigle involved in this leak to the new york times that subsequently hurt hillary clinton and help donald trump? same with the new york times stunning front page story in the same timeframe, that said the fbi saw no clear links between trump and russia.

those two new york times stories had, i think, and nate silver thinks, a measurable impact on the 2016 election. do you think that, i mean, is the fbi going to be looking at what mcgonigle was doing at that time? because he was at the fbi office at that juncture. >> yeah, so, the idea if you flip him you're gonna ask these questions. i have to say, i wouldn't hold my breath. and unfortunately the reason is, the inspector general looked at this. the fbi, presumably looked at this, and they just haven't gotten anywhere on who the fbi was leaking to the press. everyone was quite aware if that was going on. there was just story after story. and everyone knew this was coming from new york and rudy giuliani was the mayor here. he was friends with all sorts of people connected to the fbi. everyone knew there was a lot of smoke. but -- and >> predicted a big story

was gonna come out. >> absolutely. so far it hasn't been pinned out. now could mcgonigle, if he flips, give the answer to that? he could, if he knows that. it is, just to play devils advocate, it is possible that this is a really interesting, really important story, let it and related. >> to macdonnell mcgonigle. >> do you think the fbi investigated sufficiently? this is one of their own. it happened under their noses. are they the right people to be investigating the goggles case? >> that's a fantastic question. on the plus side, they made this case. so as the fbi said, they assigned it outside of new york, they had washington and lee l.a., which are two great offices during this case, and they brought it. these are two, they look very solid. so that's the plus side. the minus side is, i've been critical of chris wray in terms of just how forthcoming he has been and the way he has talked about, for instance, what

happened on january 6th and talking about fbi failures there. i think there were failures. i was trained by robert mueller, lisa monaco, the deputy attorney will attorney general. when something goes wrong candor is the only way to go. so the concern i would have is, whatever the fbi determines, are they going to be very candid about whatever false show and say this is what happened, warts and all, it is what we're doing to fix it. that seems like the right approach. it remains to be seen whether that's what they're going to do. >> it's a stunning story. bags of money in apartments, handoffs of manila file folder envelope's and fancy dinners. it's stuff out of a john makary book. >> according including the scorned woman, the jilted lovers. >> the story has it all. andrew weissmann, former special counsel senior member of the mueller train. thank you for disabuse-ing me of certain oceans and picking

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survivors buried under the rubble caused by a massive earthquake that hit turkey and syria on monday. just after 11 pm eastern time, less than two hours from now, that will mark the end of a crucial 72 hour window during which most earthquake survivors are rescued. after that, experts say hope fades. in this case, quickly, where critical factors like cold weather and terrain, aftershocks, and access, those are all ongoing concerns. now the epicenter of the earthquake was in a small province in southern turkey that sits right on the mediterranean coast. its border by syria. but the quake was felt more than 300 miles away from there and it affected more than 13.5 million people. because this is such a remote area, local and international rescue teams are having a hard time getting their. and survivors are telling reporters in turkey that in the first critical 24 hours after that quake, no one was there to help. no government, no rescue teams. people themselves survivors

used their bare hands to dig through the rubble, looking for their loved ones. like in this video, where a man sees the body of his wife but his unable to pull her out. he told reporters that he knew she was gone. people in turkey have taken to social media to vent their frustration. but instead of getting answers, or assistance, they're getting punished. turkish police said today that at least 18 people were detained and five of them arrested for sending provocative posts about turkey's earthquake. access to twitter and in turkey has been restricted. turkish president erdogan visited the affected areas today in admitted some shortcomings in the handling of the crisis, but also said it is not possible to be prepared for such a disaster. whether it was possible or not, erdogan certainly was not at the time the earthquake hit turkey head less than $5 in the government's earthquake relief fund. $5.

fortunately, other countries have sent in rescue teams which are now on the ground in both turkey and in syria. on the turkish side, teams are forming human chains as they climb collapsed buildings looking for survivors, which is how this happened. an eight year old boy was found after more than 32 hours under the rubble. he was then passed from person to person over the debris until he landed in the arms of his mother. and yesterday syrian civil defense teams posted a video of the moment another child was rescued after being under the rubble for more than 40 hours. we so these are the good stories. but as of tonight, more than 15,000 people have been killed, including at least three american citizens and tens of thousands have been injured. more than 12,000 of those deaths are in turkey. the rest are in syria, which is, of course, the country still dealing with the scars of a brutal civil war. and for those who have managed to survive, they still very much need food, water, and

shelter. you can visit nbc news.com for information on how to help in this crisis. we will be right back. we will be right back. no, no, no, no, no, no, no. there's a problem with my paycheck. it's short. someone messed it up?

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false idols. all while big government collude with big tech to strip away the most american thing there is. your freedom of speech. that's not normal. it's crazy. and it's wrong. the dividing line in america is no longer between right or left. the choice is between normal or crazy. >> it sure is. that was arkansas governor sarah huckabee sanders delivering the gop response to the president's state of the union address, and offering us a terrifying case into the republican party's case for governing. and she is not making this argument alone. down in florida, governor ron desantis has taken on the so-called left-wing culture war with unique zeal, from the don't say gay bill and the stop woke act, to banning restrictions mitigate the spread of covid-19, to blocking florida high schools from offering ap african american studies, to diversity and inclusion programs at florida

colleges and universities, and basically forcing schools to close their classroom libraries. governor desantis is all in on the battle between normal and crazy, only it is unclear whether he understands which side is actually normal and which side is actually crazy. what are normal people who are being called crazy supposed to do in these culture wars? but should crazy people who think they are normal be asked to do? i know just the person to ask. joining me now is kenji -- , professor of constitutional law at nyu law school and the author of the newly released say the right thing, how to talk about identity diversity and justice. professor, what a book to have released this week on the heels of the state of the union and its response yesterday. my question to you is, how do you even talk of vote diversity and inclusion and equity in a state like florida, where they literally don't want you to be having those conversations anywhere publicly? >> yeah, absolutely. first of all, thank you so much for having me on. and i will begin by saying we are actually not trying to talk

directly to governor desantis. >> he's lost. >> exactly, it's almost like a bear on one side of the room, and my coauthor on the other side of the room. and we're oaths -- for both talking to the people in the middle of that room who are undecided, people of -- want to get these issues, right but are terrified of saying the wrong thing. and say what you will about them, the desantis and sarah huckabee sanders are the world. i value proposition which is come to our side, you can say whatever you want, the old status quo applies. and if somebody is offended, that's their problem, and they're crazy. >> wait, we're taking the problem off your plate. where the ones who are right, they're wrong, don't worry about it anymore. >> exactly. >> but you are proposing something that takes more work and is more nuanced. how do you make that argument? >> i think it's worth having, first, because it's the right thing to do. and that's bedrock. the people who are trying to stick up for these values are on the side of justice and inclusion, and really, the future. so, those are all really good reasons.

what worries us is the methodology that we're using, because i think too often were too quick to cancel people. so, cancel culture has its place, if someone does something agree just, that's just consequence culture, right. but i think what we're worried about is the person of goodwill who is so frozen in fear, terrified of saying the wrong thing, as we all do from time to time, and hurting someone they care about or getting canceled themselves. such that they're actually much more open and receptive to the desantis propositions. >> do you feel there is a certain profile for the kind of person? social, economic, generational? >> i think it's all of the above, i think this people in all those demographics. i think this is the bulk of the country. if you look at, like, i'm an obama by -- obama guy and just believing the decency of americans. and i reconstructed view that america is the right country. and what people want to do the right thing. and what worries me a little bit about this cancel culture is people of goodwill are actually not being given a choice between something constructive and something

destructive. it's really just fear based, in terms of cancel culture. what the book tries to do is move people away from cancel culture toward what we called coaching culture, and say we are going to give you tools, we will teach you how to build up your own resilience, how to have more curiosity, how to avoid unforced errors for conversational traps. how to apologize authentically and how to disagree respectfully. >> yeah, apologize often. baked into it is a certain amount of empathy for our fellow americans. and i do believe in the goodness of this country. i believe we are in a path citizenry. but there is a subsection, and maybe ron desantis is included in it, that gaslights the hell out of everyone. i mean, for sarah huckabee sanders to say normal versus crazy, she's right, it is about normal versus crazy. only i would suggest to flip the tables, right. the rhetoric coming out of the right, and what do you do about the gaslighting that is so central to the republican playbook at this point? just not engage with people who

are gaslighting? what you do when people are like, i don't want this culture war, and then proceed to wage a culture war? >> i really think you ignore them. even when you have to talk to them, you have to realize that you're not really persuading them or talking to them, you're talking to the middle of the country that's listening into the conversation you are having with them. >> right. >> so again, we have to be really kind of rock ribbed in our commitments. but also understand that when we're talking to that middle the room, middle the country that we're trying to persuade come over to our side, every time, like, we choose cancel culture over coaching culture, or driving more people into the warm embrace of ron desantis. >> that is a cautionary jail. kenji yoshino, often professor of constitutional law at nyu. with a book that so appropriate for these times. thank you for joining me tonight. it's great to see you. >> it's always a joy. >> we'll be right back. ll be right back some describe it as an intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks.

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most frenzied aftermath of the 2020 election, to the fevered swamp of conspiracy theories about voter fraud, go to arizona. in the spring and summer of 2021, while the cyber ninjas were spinning candy colored lazy susan's during their so-called audit of votes cast in maricopa county, i failed republican state candidate named liz harris marshaled an army to go canvassing door to door looking for voter fraud. spoiler alert, just like the maricopa county audit, the canvassed in turn up anything.

a year later, liz harris ran again for a seat in the arizona -- state house, and this time she won. and even though she won, she believed the 2022 election in arizona was fraudulent and she issued a threat. i call on all state legislators to join me in demanding a new election. i will now be withholding my vote on any bills in the session without this new election, in protest and what is clearly a potential fraudulent election. she signed it, liz harris, mba. which is a totally normal thing for people with an mba to do. this week, state representative liz harris, mba, appear to make good on that threat. liz perez, mba, join all the democrats to vote no, single-handedly sandbagging a republican bill to fund the government. republicans hold a one seat majority in the state house in arizona, so liz harris, nba, and her vote, they are crucial in the face of united

democratic opposition. as to why liz harris, nba, voted no, all we have to go on is her pledge to hold the arizona legislature hostage until they demand a redo of the 2022 election. she would not talk to reporters about it. republicans were surprised to lose this vote, and they will try again in the next two weeks. so if we suddenly start hearing arizona republicans cry out what election fraud in the midterms, i guess we know why. if you thought the 2022 midterms were a corrective to the election denialism madness of the 2020 elections, if you thought for a moment that the fever had broken, and i am afraid to have to tell you we are still very much living in the middle of an outbreak. that is the show for tonight. we will see you again tomorrow. now, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. we have maxwell frost here tonight. he's just off a big hearing for him, youngest member of congress who was able to effortlessly