stuff is the hard part for kevin mccarthy. the first run he had was a historic debacle, but you still had to do it. >> part of his problem is that i don't think that's the kind of marjorie taylor greene's of the world really believe that they need to form a coalition because they have bought their own propaganda about them representing the quote unquote american people. >> i think that's exactly right. and i've seen people on the left do that in various iterations of my life. on the left and also get submerged underneath impenetrable jargon. it tends to be a real obstacle and getting people to agree with your ideas and move them along. we'll see how all this works out. michelle goldberg, anand giridharadas, thank you both. that's all in on this wednesday night. wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> thanks as always, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us. i'm going to read some review of president biden's "state of the union" last night, and i want you to try and guess the source.

quote, look he worked hard tonight. he put into words what he felt, and he ended the evening far stronger than he began. give him credit for that. here's another. quote, his wife jill is looking lovely tonight in a beautiful purple dres. now, if you don't know who said this, don't worry about it. the answer is really very unlikely. those were both reviews from former president donald trump. and as much as trump also ranted about biden's speech even he had to admit that last night was a strong night for the president. he managed to sort of trick republicans into greeing with him. there were a few of those moments. the most notable was one this. >> we started making thewealthy pay their fair share, some republicans -- some republicans want medicare and social security to sunset. i'm not saying it's a majority.

let me give you anybody who doubts it contact my office, i'll give you a copy. i'll give you a copy of the proposal. as we all apparently agree social security and medicare is off the books now, right? all right. >> we good? now last night president biden was diplomatically not naming names when it came to republicans wishing to sunset medicare and social security. but there are two senators who have been incred laebl loud and proud about doing just that, former senator rick scott, and rick johnson. senator scott was the head of the senatorial committee last year. he challenged mcconnell for senate leadership literally months ago and he didn't do it

empty hand. for almost a year senator scott hbo promoting this big multipoint plan to rescue america. he even has this 66-page pamphlet. anyway, you can get it for free the pamphlet, and it explains everything. on page 36 quite literally it says all federal legislation sunsets in five years if laws we're keeping, congress can pass it again. that's literally something sunsetting. it can rise again like the sun but it's literally sunsetting. think about the economy collapsing and imagine if we had a scenario like that every five years for everything the government does -- social security, medicare, medicaid. can you imagine if republicans can hold hostage medical care for seniors? because that has been the sales

pitch for the past year for one of the country's top republicans. republican senator ron johnson goes even further. here he is on a local radio show just last year when he was in the middle of a tough re-election fight. >> defense spending has always been discretionary. what's mandatory are things like social security and medicare. if you qualify for the entitlement you just get it no matter what the cost. what we ought to be doing is we ought to turn everything into discretionary spending so it's all evaluated. >> wisconsin senator johnson doesn't just want it to need approval every five years, he wants it to be discretionary funding that needs to be approved every single year, which is wow. now, both senator ron johnson and senator rick scott put out statements saying biden's comments on social security and medicare last night were spin and they were lies. and that put senators johnson and scott in a catch-22.

and that -- that place is exactly where president biden seems to want them. >> let me ask you first about last night, the "state of the union." you are getting a lot of attaboys today from your fellow democrats who said you showed energy, optimism, you stood up to the republicans. they were yelling at you. some of them called you a liar. did you expect that reaction? >> i also noticed a fair amount of republicans standing up last night and clapping. you know, for example, when i pointed out that some republicans are talking about voting to end medicare and they said, no, no, i said, okay, that means all of you support medicare, everybody raise your hand. they all raised their hand.

so guess what, we accomplished something. unless they break their word there's going to be no cuts in medicare and social security. >> so thanks ron johnson and rick scott, we accomplished something. yeah, let's go. and in case there was any doubt about how much and how hard president biden is going to press this point, he showed up in wisconsin today, senator johnson's backyard with a copy of senator scott's 66-page pamphlet and print outs about the statements about sunsetting government benefits. okay, president biden. it does not stop there. tomorrow biden heads to florida which is senator scott's backyard. to be clear both of these trips were announced before the "state of the union," but it all feels almost like a strategy. and the burden is now on republicans. they can either admit they support their own wildly onpopular policies or they can abandon them.

it's really kind of an a-plus political maneuver. it's not all about trolling republicans on the debt limit. president biden is taking his national show on the road to demonstrate in individual states what democrats can do. in wisconsin today biden touted the$2.9 billion of federal funding for infrastructure bills. this is granular stuff that shows people actual changes in their every day lives like funding buses with electric buses and replacing the i-39 wisconsin river bridge. and there are now tons of soon to be ready shovel projects for president biden to talk about in every state he visits, sort of a national pr blitz highlighting what democrats are doing and can do and maybe will do for americans across the country. and no one is in a better position to help us evaluate how

biden's pick is landing than the newly elected democratic governor of maryland. governor moore is only the third black governor in u.s. history. he is now at the helm of a new state level trifecta, which means democrats in control of it statehouse, state senate, and governor's mansion. and maryland really at this moment with this man in charge has the opportunity to be a democratic laboratory. and also he was at the "state of the union" last night. that, too. joining me now is my friend maryland's democratic governor wes moore. it's like the first time i'm addressing you as governor and i'm tearing up a little bit. it's so good to see you, and congratulations on your win. >> thank you. congratulations to you. >> we did good. our moms are proud. wes, governor moore. -- >> yes, they are. >> let's talk about what happened last night. there was a lot of surprise.

it remains unclear how much biden expected to be heckled, but he turned it into a real moment. how long do you think he can play this strategy? do you think it's going to work? do you think republicans were now in a bind of their own making? >> well, i think the strategy is going to work because his strategy is just share facts. there's nothing else to it. when he talked about the reason investment matters and what it means to local individual communities, i can tell you right now that it matters to the state of maryland where the president was just here last week and together in partnership we announced new construction to the frederick douglas tunnel, which is going to create 30,000 new jobs in the state of maryland. you know, just this past week we were announcing a joint partnership that took place with coplen state university, one of our four hbcus in the state of maryland focusing on broadband

equity. so the investments taking place across the country i can tell you they are working, it is helping people to get to work, and that's the reason we're so excited in partnership to be able to be working with this administration. >> you know, it's like so often these big political speeches are couched in vagaries, big soaring ideas. but what was so interesting in what biden did last night and what you're talking about is the specificity of these projects. whether it's the junk credit card fees he was talking about or the bridges or just appearing in places where diesel buses are going to be replaced by electric buses. i mean, i feel like this is a new model for politicians which is bring the change home. and even if it seems negligent, that matters to people on the ground. like seeing the federal government at work improving communities actually bears

good will. is that the experience admittedly a short time in office but how much does it matter to them to literally see the change on their roads and their homes? >> that's right. that's what they elected for us. they elected us to do the work on the ground that's going to have an impact on their lives. i remember the first day when i took office the way i signed executive orders that did everything from releasing $3.5 million in funding -- previously health funding for abortion providers and training abortion providers. because i said maryland is going to be a safe haven for abortion rights, i meant it. the day after i signed an executive order creating a platform where maryland will be a safe year option, we all want high school graduates to have a year of service to the state of maryland. and it's going to be working

with non-profit organizations but also helping to address the fact right now in the state of maryland we have 10,000 vacancies in our state government, which means basic functions are not being performed. i think what we saw from the president and what we're seeing from chief executives all around the country is the practical on the ground work that people are acquiring and people are demanding, it is happening. but it means we have to be intentional, it means we have to be aggressive, and means we have to stay focused on creating these pathways for health and work in all these government jurisdictions. >> you know, governor -- i'm still getting used to it -- it seems to me that the functioning of government isn't just important because of course people want services to work. they want roads who don't have potholes, they want a functioning representative government, but it's also this intangible pride. when people see their communities falling apart, when we can't go down the roads when

there's too much -- they have to wait in line at the dmv for a million hours, there's a loss -- those are sort of the most minimal surface aspects of a loss in private america, but he talked so much about pride last night. he invoked it i think five times in the course of the speech, and it seems to me he thinks that's central to stitching the country back together, to the lost part of the republican party so filled with grievance, it seems like an olive branch. you rebuild this country, this democracy by making people believe it not just because functionality is good and efficiency is good but then they believe in the project of america writ large. do you agree that pride -- the restoration of pride as articulated by the president last night is central to sort of bringing back bipartisanship? i don't want to sound like pollyanna, but i sort of wonder how you read the invocation last night. >> i do.

and pride isn't partisan. pride is about the fact we have a fundamental commitment to be able to lead our jerks a little bit better than the way we found them. i know when we went through our campaign we ended up winning with more individual votes than anyone who'd ever run for governor in the state of may recall. and the reason it was important was this because we went everywhere. we won democrats, independents, and a chunk of republicans because you realize the things we were talking about, making sure we can fully fund a strong education system, making sure we can have safe streets and safe communities for everybody and people have a right to feel safe in their own neighborhoods, communities, and in their own skin. making sure ourtuants can be more competitive and as a state we can grow a small business. that's not a partisan issue. and the biggest thing we saw last night from the speech are

so many issues the president was speaking about, they did not have a partisan tint. it was something i believe in deeply if we are divided we have no shot at winning, but if we're united, then we can't lose. that's what he highlighted and i think these policies matter so much, that pride is not partisan, pride is patriotic. >> and, you know, he's gone to wisconsin, he's gone to florida, which is not exactly a democratic hotbed, taking it to republican doorsteps not to troll desantis but to say i know you didn't vote for me. but at the end of the day i'm here to fix things, i'm here to make you believe in the project again seems super powerful. how do you square -- how do you square that person with the republicans who are heckling the president and painting a picture of -- of the apocalypse on the risen for america. i mean how do you talk to those

people in a moment like this when, you know, the president is trying really hard but is getting screamed at in the "state of the union" address? >> i think it was exactly the image that the president wanted, where the president is talking about the policies that can make people -- that can make their lives better, that are addressing a very real and human pain that so many americans are feeling both in urban, rural, and suburban areas. and then you have another group who is perfectly fine being in the opposition but are not coming up with a solution. you know, and i know that what we saw in our race was, you know, when we look at the impacts of the race that we had and we won decisively, but even since then we have spent a good amount of time as the governor where i have been out to western maryland and to eastern shore and a lot of rural areas, places that have not seen a governor

visit. i was in one area in western maryland that's not seen a governor visit there since 1996. there weren't a lot of democrats when we went out there to go visit last monday. and i said, you know, for the people that voted for me, i plan to work to keep your support. and for the people who didn't vote for me, i just ask and i pray that you offer the space and the grace for me to earn your support in the future. i think that what president biden is going to show and what he'll continue to show is plans, real plans and pathways for economic growth for people in our jerks, for people in my state for the president and the country. and understand that the opposition is not providing an alternative. the opposition is simply just being in opposition, and people will pay attention to that. >> maryland's governor wes moore, i love saying maryland's governor wes moore, and you were always destined for it since the

day i met you. congratulations. please come back all the time and good luck with everything you're doing in the state. >> bless you. thank so much. thank you. we have lots more to come tonight. the fallout after the arrest of a top fbi spy accused of working with a russian oligarch who played a role in the mueller report. the accusations against it might even get worse. plus who's normal and who's crazy? more on that just ahead. crazy? more on that just ahead.

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is it true he owned millions of dollars when he was head of the trump campaign. did he owe millions of dollars? did he offer those private briefings to you as a way to repay the debts. >> get lost please, thank you. >> get lost please, thank you. ice-cold. that epic brush off was courtesy of oleg deripaska, a russian oligarch with very close ties with vladimir putin. if his name sounds familiar that's because it was revealed in 2017 that donald trump's campaign manager, paul manafort, owed oleg deripaska, millions. that would be the same indicted

by special counsel muller's team on a slew as charges. manafort reportedly offered deripaska private briefings about the 2016 campaign as a way to reportedly get hold with deripaska. the russian oligarch gets mentioned in mueller's report over 60 times. they had strong suspicions but were ultimately never able to confirm that manafort shared internal trump campaign polling data with deripaska via his former business partner who the u.s. has determined was a former russian intelligence agent. to underscore how close he was to the kremlin it says about him, quote, the russian government coordinates with and directs deripaska on many of his influence operations. it is against that backdrop that the fbi announced a stunning and

just completely shocking arrest late last month of one of its own albeit it former most senior officials. charles is the former chief counter intelligence official at the fbi in new york. and the fbi unsealed two unbelievable indictments against him one of which alleges shortly after leaving the fbi mcgonigal began taking money. we're talking about someone who served as the chief counter intelligence official at the fbi in the new york field office who was tasked with investigating russian election interference in 2016 and we're talking about him allegedly being in cahoots with a sanctioned russian oligarch who was close to putin. as yale historian timothy snider puts it, in 2016 trump's campaign manager, paul manafort, was a former employee of a russian oligarch deripaska, and owed money to that same russian

oligarch. and that special fbi agent charles mcgonigal, he then went to work according to the indictment for that very same russian oligarch. this is obviously very bad for trump personally, but it's also very bad for fbi new york, for the fbi generally and for the united states of america. at best the story could just be about plain old greed. at worst it could be potentially catastrophic for highly sensitive u.s. government secrets. but there is still so very much we do not know. a new insider report published today sums up the case this way. it's already a bad look for those charged with protecting u.s. secrets. there's a chance it could get much worse. mcgonigal was not charged with espionage, an fbi source told an insider the investigation is ongoing. joining us now is a former senior member of special counsel

mueller's team the great andrew wiseman. every time you're on the show is the perfect time for you to be on the show, but i triple mean it tonight. first of all, espionage, they're releasing him on a $500,000 bond which suggests espionage may not be in the mix here. how do you read the situation as the president stands? >> i think if i were in the fbi they'd have to worry about is this a corruption case or a counter intelligence case and get to the bottom of it. they'd have to be scouring every single thing he touched at the fbi to figure out what's going on. it's important to note he didn't just leave the fbi and work for oleg deripaska, which as you said the judgment call there and how you would go from sort of essentially team america to team russia that quickly. the reason he's charged with a criminal case is that that alone is not enough.

is that he disguised his work in a way it wouldn't be clear he was violating u.s. sanctions, so there were all sorts of ways they had companies and they sort of used the money in different ways so he got paid but no one could trace it. the fbi did trace it, and that's the charge in new york. separately he is charged with actually committing crimes of a really dangerous nature while he was at the fbi, not after he left, but he was taking hundreds of thousands of dollars according to the indictment from albanians and not only took the money, but he opened a case on an adversary of the person who was giving him money. so that -- >> while he was at the fbi. >> while he was at the fbi. i mean this -- if you're at the fbi where it's filled with honest hardworking people, this is the worst thing ever. just imagine anybody in a workplace where you find out somebody you trust did something -- >> and someone high up, too. this isn't just some low level agent, as you were saying to me before the segment began. >> incredibly high up. to be a special agent in charge

in new york is one of the preeminent positions and the kind of work he was doing gave him access to everything. so one of the reasons i think there are two indictments not one is it's sort of like playing russian roulette with two bullets, not one bullet. i mean, this puts a ton of pressure on him to plead guilty and cooperate, exactly. because if you're at the fbi you absolutely want to know what information did you pass onto albanians, russians, anyone. i mean that is -- that has got to be the main focus of, you know, chris wray, lisa monica. >> as of right now just to be clear because we didn't talk about the albanian indictment in the script there, but that happened when he was at the fbi. from what we know right now, he had left the fbi before -- before maybe he started working for deripaska, but can we be certain of that, right? you know from the manafort case it takes some time to figure out

how long someone's been working covertly for a foreign government. >> absolutely. you do not know from the public record when that relationship started, and if you're oleg deripaska or any oligarch, the idea that you have access and could get information from a high level fbi agent, that's, you know, mana from heaven, and this is spy versus spy. that's what they want. that issue of when where was that relationship, when did it start and particularly what was said is key. and just to the point, by the way, on the manafort, the polling data just because you always try your last case, after -- after our investigation was over and biden became president the dni, the head of the intelligence community recorded that they actually were able to confirm that the cohen data went to russia. we knew that had to be case but didn't have the evidence.

we couldn't say. of course constantine kilimnik would have been killed if he didn't pass it on. >> for people like manafort, kilimnik, where's trump in all this, one of the things people are scrutinizing are the two stories that came out in october 2016 that had measurable impacts on the data if you believe the data that surfaced afterwards. james comey announced there's going to be an investigation into clinton's e-mail, they're picking that up. and in part made the announcement a week before the election because he's worried the fbi office of new york would leak word of it, was going to put forth leaks if comey doesn't do something about it. people are saying, wait a second, fbi new york office, was charles mcgonigal involved in the leak to "the new york times" that subsequently hurt hillary clinton and helped donald trump? same with the "the new york

times" stunning front page story in the same time frame that said the fbi saw no clear links between trump and russia. those two "the new york times" stories had i think and nate silver thinks a measurable impact on the 2016 election. do you think that -- i mean is the fbi going to be looking at what mcgonigal was doing at that time because he was at the fbi office at that juncture. >> the idea you flip in you're definitely going to ask those questions. i have to say i wouldn't hold my breath, and unfortunately the reason is the inspector general looked at this, the fbi presumably looked at this, and they just haven't gotten anywhere on who the fbi was leaking to the press. i mean, everyone was quite aware that was going on. i mean it was just story after story and everyone knew this was coming from the new york and rudy giuliani and the mayor here and he was close friends with

all sorts of people connected to the fbi. so everyone knew there was a lot of smoke -- >> and predicted the big story was going to come out. >> so far it hasn't been pinned down. could mcgonigal if he flips give the answer to that? he could. just to play devil's advocate, it is possible this is a really interesting really important story but it's unrelated. >> to mcgonigal. >> exactly. >> can the fbi investigate this sufficiently? this is one of their own and happened under their noses. are they the right people to be investigating the case. >> that is a great question. on the plus side they made this case. as the fbi said they assigned it outside of new york. they have washington and l.a. which are two great offices and tla look very solid. so that's the plus side. the minus side is, you know, i've been critical of chris wray in terms of just how forthcoming

he's been in the way he's talked about, for instance, what happened on january 6th and talking about fbi failures there. and i think there were failures, and i think, you know, i was trained by robert mueller. i know lisa the deputy attorney general was trained by robert mueller. so the concern i would have is whatever the fbi determined are they going to be very candid about whatever faults it shows and just say, look, this is what happened, and warts and all and this is what we're doing to fix it? that obviously is the right approach. it remains to be seen whether that's what they're going to do. >> it is a stunning story. i mean bags of money in apartments, hands off of manila file folder envelopes at fancy dinners. >> including the so sort of scorned woman -- >> yes, jilted lovers. this story has it all. andrew wiseman, former fbi general counsel and senior member of the mueller team,

always good to see you. and thank you. still more to come tonight including republicans going all in the culture wars to fire up their voters and what can the democrats do to help and turn down the heat? we have advice just how to do it possibly just ahead. vice just ht possibly just ahead. and it's easier than ever to■ get your projects done right. inside, outside, big or small, angi helps you find the right so for whatever you need done. with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. just search or scroll to see upf on hundreds of projects. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness it's easy to make your home an a check out angi.com today. angi... and done.

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time is running out for survivors buried under the rubble caused by a massive earthquake that hit turkey and syria on monday. just after 11 p.m. eastern time less than two hours from now that will mark the end of a crucial 72 hour window during which most earthquake survivors are rescued. after that experts say hope fades in this case quickly. there are critical factors like cold weather and terrain, after shocks, and access. those are all ongoing concerns. now, the epicenter of the earthquake was in a small province in southern turkey that sits right on the mediterranean coast. it's bordered by syria. but the quake was felt more than 300 miles from there and affected 13.5 million people. because this is such a remote area local and international rescue teams are getting a hard time getting there and survivors are telling reporters in turkey in the first critical 24 hours after that quake, no one was

there to help, no government, no rescue teams. people themselves, survivors used their bare hands to dig through the rubble. like in this video where the man sees a body of his wife but unable to pull her out. he told the reporter he knew she was gone. people had taken to social media to vent their frustration but instead of getting answers or assistance they're getting punished. turkish police said today at least 18 people were detained and five of them arrested for sending provocative posts about turkey's earthquake. access to twitter in turkey has also been restricted. turkish president erdogan visited the affected areas today and admitted some shortcomings in the handling of the crisis but also said it is not possible to be prepared for such a disaster. whether it was possible or not erdogan certainly was not. at the time the earthquake hit turkey had less than $5 in the

government's earthquake relief fund. $5. fortunately, other countries have sent in rescue teams which are now on the ground in both turkey and syria. on the turkish side teams are forming human chains as they climb collapsed buildings looking for survivors, which is how this happened. an 8-year-old boy was found after more than 32 hours under the rubble. he was then passed from person to person over the debris until he landed in the arms of his mother. and yesterday syrian civil defense teams posted a video of the moment another child was rescued after being under the rubble for more than 40 hours. so these are the good stories. but as of tonight more than 15,000 people have been killed including at least three american citizens and tens of thousands have been injured. more than 12,000 of those deaths are in turkey, it rest are in syria, which is, of course, a country still dealing with the scars of a brutal civil war.

and for those who have managed to survive they still very much need food, water, and shelter. you can visit nbcnews.com for information on how to help in this crisis. we will be right back. n this crisis. we will be right back. some old, explore new worlds, and to start screening for colon cancer. yep. with colon cancer rising in adults under 50, the american cancer society recommends starting to screen earlier, at age 45. i'm cologuard, a noninvasive way to screen at home, on your schedule. and i find 92% of colon cancers. i'm for people 45+ at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you.

most americans simply want to live their lives in freedom and peace, but we are under attack in a left-wing culture war we didn't start and never wanted to fight. every day we are told we must partake in their rituals, salute

their flags, and worship their false idols all while big government colludes with big tech to strip away the most american thing there is, your freedom of speech. that's not normal. it's crazy, and it's wrong. the dividing line in america is no longer between right or left. the choice is between normal or crazy. >> it sure is. that was arkansas governor sarah huckabee sanders delivering the gop response to the president's "state of the union" address and offering us a terrifying glimpse into the republican party's case for governing. and she is not making this argument alone. down in florida governor ron desantis has taken on the so-called left-wing culture war with unique zeal from the don't isay gay bill and the stop woke act, to banning restrictions mitigating the spread of covid-19 to blocking florida high schools from offering ap african american studies,

barring diversity inclusion programs at colleges and universities and basically forcing florida schools to closing down their classes and libraries. governor desantis is all in although it is unclear if he understands which side is actually normal and which side is actually crazy. what are normal people who are being called crazy supposed to do in these culture wars? what should crazy people who think they are normal be asked to do? i know just the person to ask. joining me now is professor of constitutional law at nyu law school and author of the newly released "say the right thing how to talk about diversity and justice." professor, what a book to have released this week on the heels of the "state of the union" and its responses yesterday. my question to you is like how do you even talk about diversity and inclusion and equity in a state like florida where they literally don't want you to be having those conversations anywhere publicly? >> yeah, absolutely. so, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. can i'll begin by saying we're

actually not trying to talk directly to governor desantis. someone is like there on one side of the room and i and my coauthor on the other side of the room and we're both trying to talk to people on the other side, who want to get these issues right but are carified of getting canceled of saying the wrong thing. the desantiss and sarah huckabee sanders of the world have a proposition, come to our side, you can say whatever you want and if someone is offended that's their problem and they're crazy. >> we're the ones who are right, they're wrong, don't worry about it. you are preparing something that takes more work and nuanced. how do you make that argument that you're having? >> yeah, i think it's worth having first because it's the right thing to do and that sort of bedrock people trying to stickup for these values are on the side of justice and inclusion and really the future.

those are all good reasons? what worries us is the methodology we're using because i think too often we're too quick to cancel culture. cancel culture has its place, that's just consequence culture. i think what we're worried about is a person of good will so sort of frozen in fear of saying the wrong thing as we all do from time to time and hurting someone they care about or getting canceled themselves, they're actually much more kind of open and receptive to the desantis proposition. >> do you feel there's certain -- is there a profile for that sort of person? is it generational, economic? >> i think it's all of the above. i think there are people in all the demographics. i think this is the bulk of the country. if you look at i'm just an obama guy and believing in the decency of americans i have this view and most people want to do the right thing? what worries me is people of good will are actually not being

given a choice and really fear based in terms of cancel culture. what the book tries to do is move people away from cancel culture and say we're going to give you tools and teach you how to build up your resilience, have more curiosity and have unforced errors and how to apologiza then r thentically and disagree respectfully. >> baked in this is a sort of empathy for our fellow americans, and i do believe in the goodness of this country. there is a subsection and maybe ron desantis is included in it that gaslights the hell out of everyone. i mean for sarah huckabee sanders to say normal versus crazy, she's right. it is about normal versus crazy only i would suggest to flip the tables, right? the rhetoric coming out of the right, i mean what do you do about the gaslighting that is so -- is so central to the republican play book at this

point? do you just not engage the people who are gaslighting you? what do you do when people are like i don't want this culture war and then proceed to wage a culture war? >> i really think you ignore them, and even when you have to talk to them you have to realize you're not really persuading them or talking to them, you're talking to the middle of the country that's listening in to the conversation you're having with them. >> right. >> so we have to be really rock-ribbed in our commitments but also sort of understand when we're talking to that middle of the room, middle of the country we're trying to persuade to come over to our side, every time like we choose cancel culture over coaching culture, we're driving more people into the warm embrace of ron desantis. >> and that is a cautionary tale. author and professor of constitutional law nyu out with a great book that is so appropriate for these times. thank you for joining me tonight. it's great to see you. >> always a joy. >> we'll be right back. you. >> always a joy. >> we'll be right back by temporarily delaying ovulation—and you can resume your regular birth control right away.

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cast your mind back to the most frenzied aftermath of the 2020 election to the fever swamp of conspiracy theories about voter fraud. go to arizona. in the spring and summer of 2021 while the cyber ninjas were spinning candy colored lazy susans during their so-called audit of the votes cast in maricopa county a failed republican statehouse candidate named liz harris martialed an army it go canvassing door-to-door looking for voter fraud. spoiler alert just like the maricopa county audit, the

canvas didn't turn up anything. a year later liz harris won again for a seat in the arizona statehouse, and this time she won. she announced even though she won she believed the 2022 election in arizona was fraudulent and she issued a threat. i call on all state legislators to join me in demanding a new election. i'll now be withholding my vote on any bills in this session without this new election in protest to what is clearly a potential fraudulent election. she signed it liz harris mba, which is a totally normal thing for people with an mba to do. this week state representative harris mba appeared to make good on that threat. liz harris mba joined with all the democrats to vote no. republicans hold a one seat majority in the statehouse in arizona. so liz harris mba and her vote, they are crucial in the face of united democratic opposition.

as to why liz harris mba voted no, all we have to go on is her pledge to hold the arizona legislature hostage until they demand a redo of the 2022 election. she would not talk to reporters about it. republicans were surprised to lose this vote and they will try again in the next two weeks. so if you suddenly start hearing arizona republicans cry out about election fraud in the mid-terms, i guess we know why. if you thought the 2022 mid-terms were a corrective to the election denialest madness to the 2020 election, if you thought for a moment the fever had broken, then i am afraid to have to tell you we are still very much living in the middle of an outbreak. that is the show for tonight. we will see you again tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. here's actually the good news, there's a lot of good republicans. i found it interesting, i wanted to call them out on that last night. it sounded like they