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hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a new chapter in the house gop's plan to govern for fox news and fox news only began today. the committee set up for one purpose only, that is to fuel the right's favorite conspiracy theory, but somehow, the deep state, is out to protect democrats and persecute conservatives and the disgraced ex-president and his allies. the so-called select subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government held its very first hearing today. republicans invited a panel that included senator chuck grassley, who once said this, that the fbi was, quote, corrupted to its

core. senator ron johnson, who has never met a conspiracy he didn't really like a lot. and former congresswoman and current fox news regular tulsi gabbard. here's just some of what they had to say. >> it's clear to me that the justice department and the fbi are suffering from a political infection that, if it's not defeated, will cause the american people no longer to trust these storied institutions. it will also threaten the american way of life. >> serious questions regarding instances of unequal application of justice and violation of january 6th defendant's due process rights remain unanswered. >> it was a litany of complaints and grievances and delusions and fantasies about hunter biden, the fbi, the deep state, twitter, covid-19, and, of course, as you heard right there, january 6th.

was not covered by the republicans today, the fact that the multiple probes by doj taking place at this moment into trump's conduct are examining an unprecedented violent, deadly insurrection at the u.s. capitol. as well as a months-long effort by the ex-president to resist handing over some of the country's most sensitive intelligence secrets. and that even the probe launch bid trump's hand-picked a.g. bill barr to investigate the investigators didn't just come up with nothing, it actually uncovered more evidence of potential criminality on the part of the ex-president, donald trump. it was left to democrat to make these points. here's congressman jamie raskin doing just that, with a stunning takeover about who is really trying to weaponize doj. >> trump and his obliging attorney generals like sessions and barr, repeatedly pressured career prosecutors to go hard or go soft in particular cases, always seeking to reward trump's

friends or to punish his enemies. if weaponization of the department of justice had a meet meaning, this is it. the durham investigation closed as a total flop without unearthing anything like the deep state conspiracy that republicans have been denouncing around here for years. it couldn't find anything of substance to it. amazingly, when prosecutors participating in this wild goose chase actually came into possession of evidence of a real offense, from italian government officials of a potentially major financial crime committed by donald trump, durham was suddenly deputized to investigate it and the whole investigation mysteriously disappeared without a trace. trump's enablers now want this subcommittee not to examine the durham debacle, as a case study in dangerous weaponization of the justice function, but rather to pick up the baton from the

defeated and demoralized durham team and to keep the wild goose chase going today. >> that is where we start today, with some of our favorite reporters and friends. charlie sykes is here, the editor at large of the bull work. forker former senator claire mccaskill and gerry connolly. congressman, we start with you. we've had so many conversations over the years about the weaponization of just about everything, questions about the irs, doj, the border agencies, the pentagon, and this -- i mean, forgive me if i can barely keep a straight face, this subcommittee feels like chutzpah on top of audacity on top of delusion. >> i think that's a good description. you know, we began with a rousing presentation from two old guys who apparently wanted

to vent every grievance real and imagined they've experienced over the last 20 to 30 years. and that really set the tone and the -- you know, part of this is also historical, right? the notion that the fbi is filled with a bunch of lefties who want to go after conservatives in america and right wing elements in america, boy, that would be news to the fbi, that would be a new historical trend entirely. because the history of any kind of use of the fbi is the other way around, right? so, j. edgar hoover tried to suppress anti-war dissent, he tried to suppress the civil rights movement, hardly a friend of the left. richard nixon tried to politicize the fbi and use it for parts and purposes and his head of the fbi had to resign. and now we come to trump. what did trump do?

he tries to get -- he does get rid of james comey, because comey won't do his bidding. that's not a lefty weaponizing the fbi, that's a right wing president trying to weaponize the fbi, and it didn't end there. you know, he went after others and finally, you know, he fired the number two so that he wouldn't get his full pension. so, i mean, if we can looking for evidence, the evidence is in front of us, but it's exactly the opposite of what the republicans on our committee want you to leave. >> and just so we don't have to watch all of these hearings, you were on it, tell us what the democratic strategy is to pierce these fever swamp dreams. >> well, i believe democratic strategy is a fairly straightforward one -- tell the truth, and, you know, fill your -- your testimony and your responses and your question

lines, with the facts. and, you know, repeat, repeat, rinse and repeat. make sure there's a narrative and truthful and fact-based, unlike what my friends on the other side of the aisle are trying to peddle. >> congressman, let me ask you a question. as a democratic member of the subcommittee on -- what is it, weaponization, will you push to have mr. durham testify before a committee with that name? >> i -- i don't know that we know that yet. and i think we have to see how things evolve. and i don't want to get ahead of my own skis. we have a ranking member who is very capable and she in concert with my colleagues on the subcommittee and our staff will have to help make those decisions. so -- but is that a possibility, yes. it depends on where we go.

so far, it's frankly not going well for my republican friends. i mean, we had a big hearing yesterday in oversight, train wreck, exactly the opposite of what they wanted to establish was established and i -- i don't think today went much better. except that it was more boring. >> yeah, i mean, and i guess i only ask because it seems like the audacity of this committee's existence is that the evidence of trump's weaponization of the federal government happened on his twitter feed. it happened in full view. it happened in the form of two senior prosecutors quitting the durham probe, one one his prosecutorial partner for decades, the other left farther along in the probe for ethical reasons. it seems there are some legitimate questions about politicization at doj on that front. >> yeah, there are two -- you know, several classic things going on here that are part of

their kit bag. distraction, you know, hey, look over there, don't look here. secondly -- >> yeah. >> projection, you know, i'm actually doing one thing what you're accused of doing. and then lying to your face. that's really what's going on here. and part of our mission is to expose that. >> so, charlie, this is exactly where you picked up today. take us through what you wrote and your take on all this. >> well, the congressman used two phrases that i was going to use, both gaslighting and projection. look, it is -- it is one thing to engage in legitimate oversight, that's one of the functions of congress, but the real irony here is that this is just performative oversight. this is made for television. and they have two main disadvantages. republicans have two disadvantages. number one, they are accusing

democrats of doing what donald trump not only has done, but has signaled that he will do again if he's ever given the opportunity. that's number one. number two, unless you are a regular viewer of fox news, it often sounds like they're talking ingues because they use code languages that people like tucker carlson and sean hannity obsess about, and probably mean absolutely nothing to anybody that isn't immersed in that world. so, you almost need a rosetta stone to figure out, what are they discussing here? but in terms of the projection, look, congressman connolly is absolutely right here. what we've seen from trump an his supporters is a real zeal to use the department of justice as a weapon. not a day doesn't go by that you don't see somebody from the maga verse talking about locking somebody up, why aren't they prosecuting x, y, or z for

nonexistent crimes. a congressman was threatening twitter executives with jail. the real concern here, though, is that this seems designed to do two things. number one, to confuse, but also, to deliver a brush-back pitch to the department of justice not to go ahead with the prosecution of donald trump, and perhaps to lay the ground for the genuine weaponization in trump 2.0. so, in that sense, it may be performative, it may be gaslighting, it may be absurd, but there is an element of danger. >> to that end, i want to show you more of what congressman jamie raskin had to say today, claire. this is him on some of the things charlie's talking about, let's just watch it. >> they've proven that they will weaponize the government not just against the other party, but against anyone who refuses to bend to the will and whim of

one donald trump, whether that's a lifelong republican state election official, like georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger, a foreign head of state like president zelenskyy, a political movement, like black lives matter, a once close personal friend and ally of trump's like his personal lawyer michael cohen for many years, or even a sycophantic trump cab net appointee like attorney general william barr. if these people break from the habits of lying and lawlessness that define life as a camp follower in the cult of donald trump. >> that -- i mean, let's just say this about congressman jamie raskin. he is the man for the moment. calling out the most audacious and dangerous elements of this version of the gop. but i thought of the list of names, i mean, they turned on cassidy hutchinson who was a trusted west wing adviser until the final hours of the trump

presidency, general mark milley, when he testified before congress still in his job once president biden was i elected, was smeared viciously by trump and his media allies. mark esper, john kelly, the list goes on and on of the people who follow into that last category of sycophantic trump cabinet appointees and lifelong republicans who break from the habits of lying and lawlessness. >> yeah, first, let me just say, if this was about making a compelling tv show for the american people, chuck grassley and ron johnson are not tv you want to see. i just got to point that out at the top. if that's your lead, if that's what you're going with as your very first play, you're in big trouble. and of course the interesting thing is, if you compare the two committees, you had one that was

full of trump appointees and republicans as witnesses. here, you have a couple of senators who are, you know, politicians who won't even take questions. so, as i said today on my twitter feed, come for the clown show, gasley and johnson and stay for the truth, jamie raskin. and that's, i think, what the congressman pointed out, the strength of this committee is going to be the democrats' ability to talk about the truth. and one truth that was not mentioned today, that i saw, was that -- i'm not saying doj's never made mistakes, i think comey made a big mistake when he, outside of all protocol, did a press hit on hillary clinton in the 11th hour of a presidential campaign. and guess what? she lost. and a lot of -- a big case could be made that she lost the presidency because of what the head of the fbi decided to do. which turned out to be a nothing

burger. and so the idea -- >> claire, can i -- >> the idea -- >> hang on, claire, i think the congressman wants to get in on this on this exact point. >> i was -- i was just going to agree with claire and add one thing, if you would, claire, and that is, ironically, when comey did that, it was in part to placate the fbi new york field office, because they were a bastion of conservative republican fbi agents that felt that comey had gone too soft on hillary clinton, so, ironically, if you want to look at weaponization, he was caving to that right wing pressure within his own agency and was unmineful of the fact that he was tilting the election. >> congressman, do you have any concerns that the garland justice department is as cautious because of this republican party? >> i -- i think it's a general view, whether it's fair or not,

i don't know, but among my colleagues in congress that merrick garland is supremely cautious. and has not been aggressive in bringing indictments that seem to be warranted. now, maybe in the end that will be justified, but we are worried about how long things take, because as you get closer and closer to the 2024 election, there are, you know, under sort of internal procedures at doj, indictments get put on ice. so -- >> yeah. >> so, if you're looking at justice and bringing people to justice, it's got to be done soon. >> i mean, because it doesn't get easier as we head into a republican primary calendar. claire, i want to come back to you and show you what congressman jamie raskin said about the elephant in the room, that this committee exists when i think 19 republicans who were at a meeting in the roosevelt room in the west wing of the

white house, plotting with donald trump about how to overturn the election, half a dozen of them sought pardons, scott perry had his phone seized. and january 6th didn't even come up today. here's congressman raskin on that. >> the public is skeptical about this strange new venture with the strange new name that's being launched because so many of the members involved have done everything they can to block the january 6th committee's investigation of the worst domestic violent attack on an american election in our history. and the public wonders members who refused to comply with congressional subpoenas themselves should be issing them to other people. >> i mean, to sound like a broken record, but thank god for jamie raskin, claire. >> yeah, bravo, bravo. and for anyone who wonders, we all wish jamie well with his cancer treatments, which is clearly why he was -- why he was

repping a cool bandanna today at the hearing. >> yes. >> listen, the weaponization of government is such an ironic title for this committee, and i think the irony will become clear to everyone except that hardened little bubble, that think tulsi gabbard is an independent player, i mean, look at this, i mean, all three of those of those politicians are putin apologists. i mean, tulsi gabbard loves putin. so, this notion that these are the people that america should be following, i think, will be exposed in the coming weeks if they continue down this path. this was a very bad idea and the people they have on this committee are the fringe of the fringe, and by the way, you can't -- i got news for the republicans. you are the leaders now in the house of representatives, the people put you there. you can't be a leader and a victim at the same time. i have preached that to people all of my adult life.

you have to pick what you are. are you a victim or are you a leader? it's clear that they are most comfortable trying to pretend they're a victim. >> charlie, the public has already weighed in on this, and i think close to 60% of americans believe it's simply an attempt to score political points. i haven't seen any polling on the state of the union antics or sarah huckabee sanders who -- sorry, that's marjorie taylor green. you know, this night that was, you know, sort of birthed a million memes, but they are not off to a good start, as claire says, as leaders of anything. >> well, and also, i think it's very striking that they are not attempting to reach out to the general electorate in any way. they are not -- they are not reaching out to independent voters, they're not looking to reach out to suburban voters, they're not looking to do anything other than to stoke their base. and this, i think, is going to be a pattern to watch.

that they have created their own alternative reality bubble with its own language, its own characters, and it's going to play very well on fox news, newsmax and oan, but it is not going to play well in the rest of the country, including in suburban areas where they have been hurting, because it's not even intended to. so, this is a choice by the republican party right now. but could i just make a note of caution here? >> sure. >> i think that congressman connolly was being very diplomatic. i think we all ought to be very concerned that despite this clown show, that they are, in fact, throwing up the kind of smoke and dust that can distract from what's really going on, and i'm increasingly concerned about the department of justice, looking at the calendar. when is merrick garland, when is jack smith going to take action? because the calendar is not our friend anymore. it's taken a very long time. and i know that none of us

really understood at the time how bill barr would suck seed in completely spreading disinformation about the mueller report. so, i think we need to be very, very alert about the possibility that they are going to be changing the narrative just enough to obscure the real stakes. as you pointed out in the call at the top of this, they're not talking about january 6th. they're not talking about the attempted insurrection or the president trying to overturn an election. so, what the rest of the country needs to do is to keep focus on what the real danger is and unfortunately, with every month that passes, i think it becomes more problematic that the department of justice will be willing to issue charges in the middle of what's already shaping up to be a heated presidential campaign. and that's -- that's very worrisome. >> congressman, i'll give you a quick last word. >> yeah, so, there's -- and even more sinister part of this, we

need to focus on, and that is to -- when you diminish the rule of law and the instruments of the rule of law like the doj and like the fbi, you make it easier for those who resort to violence to get away with it. remember, this is the crowd that called insurrectionists patriots. and this is the crowd that doesn't want to talk about donald trump interfering illegally with the election and the election results to try to turn them around. those -- and more than willing to incite violence or at least turn the other way with respect to violence as a tool to further your ends. and i think that's the real sinister part of this we all have to take quite seriously. >> perfect point to end on. congressman gerry connolly, thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, steve bannon continues to fight his

four-month prison sentence for defying a congressional subpoena. he maintains a very, very big megaphone, thanks to his podcast. in fact, a new report says he is the top disseminay or the of false and misleading and unsubstantiated statements out there. so, from misinformation in the halls of congress to misinformation on the airwaves. plus, the proud boys seditious trial is now under way. prosecutors showing a swath of text messages linking key statements from donald trump to the militia movement of the insurrectionists, which ultimately brought them to the u.s. capitol on january 6th. . later in the program, the supreme court failing to hold itself accountable, as calls grow for changes to how the nation's highest court conducts itself. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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no conversation about the proliferation of misinformation and disinformation like the one we've been having here today is complete without a good hard look at one of its primary sources. while elected republicans have weaponized lies in the halls of congress, right wing media has conducted the same campaign over its air waves and it just so happens there's brand new proof of that that came out this afternoon. it's from an exhaustive new study released today from the brookings institution. fact checkers downloaded and transcribed more than 36,000 individual podcast episodes from 79 political talk shows a summary of the findings in "the new york times" says this. when researchers compared the

shows' transcripts against a list of keywords and common falsehoods, they found that nearly 20% of steve bannon's war room episodes contained a false, misleading, or unsubstantiated statement. more than shows by on conservatives like glen beck and charlie kirk. overall, that 70% of the podcasts reviewed had shared at least one false or misleading claim, the researchers found. conservative podcasters were 11 times more likely as liberal podcasters to share a claim that fact checkers could refute. lucky for us, charlie and claire are still with us. charlie, this is -- it's a chicken and egg thing and i don't think we have to settle it, but this is the full cycle of disinformation and gaslighting on the right. >> no, and they've created this media ecosystem that's really hard to penetrate. this is something that we've talked about before, how there was once a time when somebody spreads some disinformation, you could fact check it or say, well, this is not true, look at this, that's become increasingly

difficult, because it's a hermetically sealed environment. i was talking with a republican elected official recently about how he was dealing with the crazies and he said, you know, on a regular basis, people will come up to me with some wild story and i'll say, where did you get that from? and they'll say, i heard it on this podcast, this or that podcast, and they reinforce one another. and it's -- in many cases, it's below the radar screen. we talk a lot about fox news, but there is this entire network out there that reinforces this false information and i don't see it getting better any time soon, so, i don't know how we have a discussion about social media, about -- to the tech companies or about free speech without dealing with the fact that we have this toxic sludge being injected into our culture on a regular basis. >> yeah, this thing that we don't put on the table to try to fix, because no one knows where to start. we do try to peek into this

world, because there's such symbiosis between how elected republicans, people paid by the u.s. taxpayer, act, and so we try to get back at the beginning of these crazy cycles, but here's something that alex jones said, actually, charlie, you write about this. as gaslighting relates to right wing media, alex jones said this week that, quote, a gang of racists foaming at the mouth black people are coming for your family. he advised his audience to kill everyone you need to. that's a quote. what's the beginning of this, charlie, go ahead, that's your piece. >> i did it in the context of sarah huckabee sanders say the choice is between the normals and the crazies. she's right about that, but that was the gaslighting, because donald trump was promoting alex jones for years. the monday afternoon the 2016 election, donald trump called up alex jones to thank him for the

role he played in electing him to the presidency. and maybe this is not on people's radar screens, because alex jones has had a series of court defeats, but he is out there with this overtly racist, violent message that, you know, black people from africa are going to come over and they're going to try to kill you and you should be prepared to kill as many of them as you need to protect your family. the question is, not where i began, but where does this lead? because there's now an arms race, who can be more extreme, more provocative, who can get those dopamine rushes, who can stir up enough outrage? a guy like alex jones who is struggling to stay relevant has decided to go for the kind of raw racism that you would have only found in the darkest corners of neo-nazism, even a handful of years ago. >> and i think, claire, when something like the huckabee

sanders speech pops up with millions of people watching and it sounds so weird to so many people who aren't, not just steeped in fox news, but aren't steeped in the kind of rabbit holes of conservative disinformation that spout so many of these delusions, it seems so farfetched. but the wagging the dog is now the far right disinfo wagging the republican-elected officials. >> yeah, extremism makes money. we have devolved our information system in america, partly because we have the first amendment, but it has -- it's a race to get crimes and eyeballs. and things that make you mad or afraid get more clicks and eyeballs, and who cares if it's the truth. i mean, nicolle, i was stunned listening to someone who is an acquaintance talk about how she couldn't watch the grammys, because the entire thing was a

ring of pedophiles. now, i'm sure that was news to bonnie raitt and many of the other great artists that were featured on the grammys, and we can laugh about it, but it's scary to me. >> yeah. >> and she was asked by someone i know, where did you get this information? and she said, well, it's all over tiktok and instagram. tiktok and instagram are the journalism of today, and that is frightening stuff, because these conspiracy theories are compelling and once you start, you get in the algorithm and then you are sealed off. and that's one of the things, i kind of presented an opposite view about twitter. there are still all kinds of folks on twitter, and you do have a chance to be exposed to other points of view. some of the other parts of the extreme ecosystem, you don't get exposed to anything. but there are made-up fairy tales about how evil anybody who is black or brown or anybody who is different than they are.

so, i do think trying to chase people back into things where there are all kinds of points of view is not a bad thing to do. >> claire is sticking around, charlie, thank you so much for your contributions and for spending some time with us today. important conversation. . we're going to switch gears a little bit. there is brand new courtroom evidence on how the proud boys heard trump's call to, quote, stand back and stand by, loud and clear. that's next. a medicine specifically made for heart failure. entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. heart failure can change the structure of your heart, so it may not work as well. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body.

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we are in the third week of the proud boys seditious conspiracy trial linked to the u.s. cap on the on january 6th. the prosecution unveiling text messages detailing the extent to which the proud boys believed they were taking orders from donald trump, a twice impeached disgraced ex-president, in the leadup to january 6th. an fbi agent called the response from the proud boys, quote, jubilation, after trump made his now infamous stand back and stand by comments in september of the general election 2020. in a text exchange shown to the court, proud boys are gushing over the ex-president's comments, saying this, quote, we are bigger than jesus. quote, kings. quote, boys, we are the number one media point from the largest debate that has ever been seen or heard in the history of the world. and we will be part of the conversation. let's hope daddy trump plays it

right. ew. the texts go on to highlight what appear to be coordination between the proud boys and the trump campaign. after the results of the 2020 election were clear and called for joe biden. while planning to, quote, mobilize at a so-called protest in north carolina. proud boys leader enrique tarrio saying, quote, make sure no colors, the campaign asked us -- the campaign asked us to not wear colors to these events, end quote. >> let's bring in glen kirschner, former u.s. attorney, now an msnbc legal analyst. he's been covering this trial for us. glen, first, tell me first, the significance of these texts. >> you know, nicolle, the proud boys didn't just interpret what donald trump was saying as a call to action, it was a call to action. >> yeah. >> express by donald trump's own

terms. the man was asked to condemn white supremacy and he did just the opposite. he called white supremacists to stand by. not surprisingly, the proud boys were thrilled to be enlisted by name in donald trump's unholy endeavor to try to unlawfully retain the power of the presidency. so, it's no surprise that this inspired them to action, it increased and enhanced their recruiting mission, and, you know, when you look at donald trump's criminal responsibility for the insurrection, it's in three easy steps, because he told the proud boys to stand by, he then set the date for the capitol attack when he tweeted out on december 19th, come to d.c., will be wild, and then he deployed the proud boys, the oath keepers, and others who chose to, you know, follow his commands that day, to go to the

capitol, fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore, you'll never take back your country with weakness, you must show strength, now stop the steal. stop the certification. there is donald trump's criminal responsibility for the attack on the capitol in three easy acts. >> you know, glenn, i thought of that, too, and i thought of congressman jamie raskin's statements in the final public hearing of the january 6th select committee where he makes the criminal referrals, and i thought of the insurrection, which was the one that sort of surprised everybody, that had been watching the committee work. could you just take me through what -- what you would have to prove to tie trump to that? >> you would have to prove that he incited this attack on the capitol, and, you know, i think for all of the hand wringing and legal naval gazing that seems to be going on at the department of justice, and i say that, you

know, advisedly, because of the fact that we have not seen a single higher up, a single person of privilege, a single, what i call suit of the insurrection held accountable, only the boots of the insurrection, the, you know, the people who were gullible enough or hateful enough to want to attack the capitol when donald trump ordered them to do so, you know, the department of justice, for whatever reason, they have decided not to take any overt action against a single member of the command structure of the insurrection, and if we can pull back a little bit, you know, if you look at what's going on in the federal courthouse in washington, d.c., i sat in courtroom 24 today and watched some of the proud boys prosecution being presided over by judge kelly, and then i walked about 100 feet up the fourth floor corridor to courtroom ten and watched judge

meta preside over what is now the third oath keepers trial, and i watched my former colleague prosecutor catherine racozi give her opening statement in that case. elsewhere in the courthouse, we had another insurrectionist, this guy kevin seyfried, who is shown in the picture carrying that enormous confederate flag through the halls of congress, today, he was sentenced to three years in prison, not to be confused with his son, his 24-year-old son, who is serving two years in prison for his conduct on the day of the insurrection. the insurrection was a father/son affair for the seyfried family. you have all of these boots of the insurrection that are being indicted, tried, convicted, and imprisoned, while donald trump has been given, by the department of justice, more than two years to plot his next move. and his next move includes among other things, running for the presidency again.

that's a significant failure, i believe, by the department of justice to timely hold accountable the people of privilege, what i call the ruling class criminals. >> i'm so glad you're putting this on the table, you mean, i have heard anecdotal evidence of the hand wringing you describe, as well, and i guess -- i want to know if you think it is also political to do nothing, glenn, i mean, we covered and we were all so offended by bill barr's rule of the justice department because career prosecutors quit cases that people like mike flynn pleaded guilty to. he pleaded not guilty multiple times in court. bill barr stuck his big thumb on the scales of justice and people quit. bill barr called prosecutors, he likened them to preschoolers, and that was politicization in our face. and so, we could reject it, we could study it, but i wonder if this paralysis, which is what it looks like from the outside, i

mean, you mentioned donald trump, the people in suits include mark meadows. cassidy hutchinson offered pages of evidence of his role in this. rudy giuliani, the pillow guy, the overstock guy, scott perry. i mean, none of the suits, as far as we know, are targets of a criminal investigation into a deadly insurrection at the united states capitol more than two years ago. >> i think you can say that this feels like a political act, because we are forever hearing from attorney general garland and deputy attorney general monaco, that we will follow the facts and follow the law wherever they lead, but nicolle, what doj has never answered to anybody's satisfaction, what happens when the facts show crimes were committed by the higher ups, the donald trumps, the jeffrey clarks, the giulianis and the, you know, on and on. what happens when the facts show

they committed crimes, when the law, as applied to those facts, firmly mill states in favor of an indictment and doj does nothing? well, then that feels like a political decision. and, you know, we talk about precedent all the time. there are two kinds of precedent. there's legal precedent, when an opinion must be followed by other courts in that jurisdiction, that's a precedent. but the other precedent, any act the department of justice takes or fails to take, declines to take, because people in the future will look at how the department of justice acted or failed to act, and they will make their decisions accordingly, and right now, the precedent that the department of justice has set is if you are a president or one of his inner circle, one of his criminal associates that participated,

you will be given two years and counting to plot your next move. there's a reason why we promptly, arrest, and indict people for their crimes, is to prevent them from continuing to crime and deter. others are not being deterred. >> i want to ask you one more question and i have to sneak in a break. does the political calendar get harder or easier for prosecutors as we're careening into the next presidential election, glenn? >> well, ordinarily, doj has a, what is now quaint little norm not to take any overt act within 60 days of an election. i happen to believe, in this day and age, when you have insurrectionists who have successfully run for re-election and are now firmly entrenched in congress, trying to kill our democracy from within, i don't think that is a quaint little

norm or tradition. the department of justice should continue to follow, but they probably are, so to answer your question, the closer we get to a consequential election, the less likely it is we're going to see indictments. >> and other than conservative republican liz cheney and adam kin zinger have made points for what it means for the rule of law in america if these crimes don't have consequences at doj. all right, no one is going anywhere. claire, we'll get you in on this on the other side of the break. we'll be right back. >> woman: why did we choose safelite?

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glenn and claire are back with us. i know you are way out in front of this with your questions for the justice department, but these cases with the justice department are so mature where, you know, we've seen multiple seditious conspiracy trials, you know, planned, prepped for, conducted and guilty verdicts returned and nothing for any of the republican members of congress who were so worried about criminality they sought pardons from cassidy hutchinson and mark meadows and others, and absolutely nothing on donald trump. >> glenn knows the most important rule of prosecution is to shut all the noise out and judge every case decision on the evidence, the factual evidence as it applies to the written law. it's not complicated. and if -- if the attorney general believes he's going to

somehow unite the country by his decision, he's wrong. and his job is not to unite the country. and he should quit worrying about uniting the country. his only job is to look at the facts and apply it to the evidence. that's it. and frankly, it's really important that he do that, because if he doesn't, it sends a signal that we are no longer the beacon on the hill for the rule of law. we have been the beacon on the hill for the rule of law to the rest of the world for decades upon decades upon decades. our law was not political. it was not rigged. it's why companies want to work here instead of china. but this is dangerous stuff doj is playing with. they've taken too long, there's no excuse for how long they've taken with the resources they have. they either need to decide they're not or do it. and quit rule nating about it, because it makes them look weak

and incompetent. >> including to donald trump, who is all the more emboldened and dining with notorious -- >> oh, yes, and i've got to add this, keep in mind, donald trump has said he's going to pardon all these people. i mean, think about that for a minute. >> right. >> the amount of effort and work that has gone into all these boots cases, as glenn so aptly calls them, and we've got a guy who is running for president who says he's going to wipe it out with the stroke of a pen. unbelievable. >> yeah, i mean, ron johnson was talking about the insurrectionists today, as well. they are very concerned about the participants in the coup. claire, i wanted to save a minute to ask you about the cake and the weekend and how you're doing. >> well, i'm a little over the top today, i've got my chiefs pin on, i've got the chief cake in the background. >> can we see the cake, claire?

>> yeah, hold on. >> okay. let me see this. sorry, glenn. >> all right, here it comes. >> oh, that is epic. oh, my god. >> wow. >> do you see? is that cool? >> oh, my god. yeah. cool is one word for it, it's epic. >> epic. so, we have the chiefs cake. go chiefs. and you got to see my back end on tv, it's a bonus, right? >> our most favorite guest of all. the two of you. you've rendered me speechless. >> i'm putting this up because i'm blushing. >> i am, too. blushing, sweating, everything. claire, we are all claire mccaskill this weekend, we will all be rooting for you. glenn, claire, thank you so much for the laugh and the really important conversation. i don't think there's anything

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the american people deserve to know that our supreme court justices are being held to the highest standards, whether they be justices appointed by democratic presidents or justices appointed by republican presidents. it's not enough for us to just trust the court any longer to self-enforce a secret, internal

code of ethics. the highest court in the land cannot been exempt from the standards that we hold every other federal judge to. >> sounds reasonable enough. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the nine justices who are appointed to lifetime assignments on the bench of the u.s. supreme court, the people who make decisions that impact the lives of every last one of us are held to the same ethical standards as every other federal judge. reaching that point has been a goal of senator chris murphy's. he introduced legislation in every congress going back a decade that would require the court to adopt a code of ethics. today, he put forward his legislation again, nbc news reports this, quote, the bill would task the judicial conference of the u.s. with issuing within a year of enactment a code of conduct applying to supreme court jules tises. it also contains a new provision that would authorize and ethics

investigations lawyer who would have the power to enforce the code. murphy stresses that enacting this code would make the court look better, not worse, in the eyes of the public, increasing transparency and accountability at a time when only 7% of americans have a great deal of trust in the court. seven. his push comes as new reporting in "the washington post" reveals this. quote, the supreme court has failed to reach consensus on an ethics code of conduct specific to the nine justices, that's despite internal discussion dating back at least four years. according to people familiar with this. although the justices say they voluntarily comply with the same ethical guidelines that apply to other federal judges. the lack of an ethis code has become a prominent complaint on capitol hill, where in 2019, justice elena kagan told a congressional committee that chief justice john roberts was seriously studying the issue, but a discussion failed to

produce an agreement. while the justices are taking their time agreeing to a set of standards for themselves, we've seen a host of questionable practices, including controversial decisions, leaks, and many potential conflicts of interest. senator murphy highlighted one major conflict involving justice clarence thomas. >> the spouse of a supreme court justice was involved in an effort to organize a coup, an overthrow of an democratically elected president of the united states. that is extraordinary. that is not normal. it should not be treated as just another flavor of legitimate political action. and the fact that there is no clear binding code of conduct that addresses this kind of behavior and no clear standards of recusal for supreme court justices that the american people can see and trust is just unacceptable. >> extraordinary moment in our

country's history that that sentence can be uttered. the need to be able to hold the nine supreme court justices to some sort of account is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. brian fallon is here, the executive director of the progressive judicial advocacy group demand justice. barbara mcquade is also here, former u.s. attorney, now law professor at the university of michigan. and an msnbc legal analyst. and the former congresswoman and current msnbc contributor donna edwards is back. so, brian, i start with you. senator chris murphy can utter the sentence, "the wife of clarence thomas helped plot a coup" is extraordinary. and i don't want to skip past it, because we all know the facts as they are. ginny thomas sent emails to state legislators telling them to push fake electors. she sought to overturn a free and fair election in the united states of america. i'm not sure recusing from just the january 6th congressional probe cases is adequate.

where -- how did we get here? >> well, exactly right. members of congress and the country at large should be aghast at ginny thomas' involvement in the events of january 6th, and in response to that, and this is not to denigrate senator murphy's proposal at all, but the proposal he's pushing is truly the least ambitious measure that's out there to reform the supreme court. and i say that just to note how absurd it is that this supreme court won't back this effort on their own. you know, there's all kinds of added measures that i think are necessary to reform the supreme court as a branch of government, you know, for years, senators grassley and senator leahy had a bill to televise the work of the court, there's term limits proposals to limit the justices to 18 years, there's proposals to get rid of these unsigned midnight opinions that comprise the so-called shadow docket. and of all these things, the least ambitious, the least we

could do is make the supreme court justices abide by the same code of ethics that the lower court judges have to live by. and it shouldn't take four years to figure this out. this is a code of ethics that's already on the books for every other federal judge below the level of the supreme court. there's one reason and one reason only that the supreme court won't just apply that same code of ethics to itself, it's because they think they should be above reproach. they won't surrender the power to any outside entity or official to do the enforcing of that code of ethics. it's that provision you mentioned, nicolle, in chris murphy's bill that creates an investigative office that would have the power to enforce the code. they think they should be above reproach. they don't want to surrender that power. every other branch has to live with that. we have inspectors general at the agency level, we have oversight committees in congress, the supreme court shouldn't get a free pass. >> i -- i just can't get past this ginny thomas piece, so, i'm

going to come back to you on this, brian. ginny thomas has a right to free speech, ginny thomas said before the january 6th select committee that she still believes in the election conspiracy lies told by donald trump. and used by her in email to try to get state legislators to overturn the results of elections of battleground states. those are her rights as an american. but she has told us she talked to her best friend about that. we also have evidence in front of our faces that justice thomas was an outlier. he was the only one that didn't agree with the rest of his conservative justices on one of the decisions impacting the flow of information to the committee, and he's an outlier with gorsuch and one other on other decisions. why are we even talking about this. why does john roberts have so little concern that only 7% of the american people trust them?

>> well, it's because, i think, that, again, john roberts views that it would be an institutional surrender of sorts, or he would somehow be worsening the amount of power that the supreme court as a branch of government wields. if he suddenly created some independent authority to investigate the matter of the thomases or if he conducted a serious investigation, say, into the allegations that sam alito leaked the hobby lobby decision. he's just brushing these concerns and these questions aside and i think that he's losing the forest through the trees here. he's afraid of blessing or setting up a process that would investigate any of these complaints, because he worries that would hurt the judicial branch's reputation and the power that it wields respective to the other branches, but in doing this, and brushing off ethics concern after ethics concern, he's hobbling the court

from a different standpoint, in terms of its morallegitimacy. it doesn't command any armies, the judicial branch doesn't control the purse strings of the government. the power it generates, if it ceases to have that, it loses its power in the long run. ultimately, though, i think that john roberts, his enact to act here just drives home it's going to take congress, it's going to take bill introductions, but oversight activities, nicolle, from people like dick durbin at the judiciary committee. we still haven't seen a hearing held on this, on any of these issues by dick durbin, i don't know why. >> barbara, we are at a moment where trust in all institutions is down. but 7% is not just the run of the mill sort of beating up of institutions. and sometimes when you cover an institution that is unpopular

with the public, you can say, well, i can't care more than they do, but we know they care very, very much. they complain in every public appearance and every interview they give about, oh, boo hoo, people don't like us anymore. they mock and sneer at the media that covers them. this is an out of control sort of dereliction of public covenant, right? to believe that -- we pay their salaries, and as brian is discussing, their power is in our trust in them, the sanctity of the courts. why don't they care about restoring that? >> yeah, you know, i think, nicolle, when you are a fish, you don't realize you're swimming in water. i don't think they can see what the rest of us can see. i think the greatest example of that is when justice amy coney barrett complained that the world thinks we're all a bunch of political hacks, was her phrase. and where did she say that phrase? at an event hosted by senate

majority leader mitch mcconnell. well, you know, there's a reason that people think they're political hacks. and it's so important that the public have confidence that the judiciary is making decisions based on fact and law. now, no doubt, justices who are selected by a particular party are going to have a particular world view that may cause them to make decisions that lean conservative or lean liberal. but you still like to think that they are using good faith to decide cases. and when we have all the problems that we're seeing in the court now, it creates the impression that they're deciding cases based on factors outside of the facts and the law. and they should be doing everything in their power to disaview the public of that. the easiest thing of that is a rule of ethics. here's a really easy way to do it, like every other branch of government, be accountable for some very basic rules. we do apply them, just voluntarily, well, let's put some teeth behind those things. if you mean it, if you plan to

comply, there should be no problem with having an inspector general or some other way ensuring there is enforcement. >> i want to talk about something you said about world view. it is true, and i believe this is why dobbs is such a poweful political match that's been lit and is now going to burn through our country for years to come. i don't think republicans inside that. but roe and casey were decided by justices appointed by democratic and republican presidents. roe was overturned by six right wing conservative justices appointed by republicans, three by donald trump. that is why people to not trust the u.s. supreme court. they are, in our eyes, affecting like politicians. >> yes, and nicolle, the thing that bothers lawyers, especially, in overturning that, they violated the ordinary test that courts use when deciding whether toll overturn precedent.

sometimes precedent gets overturned. but the reasons there are a number of factors that courts look at. has the public relied on the decision, in the case of roe, you bet they did. has our understanding of the facts or law changed since the decision was made -- nope. has the law grown up around it in such a way that that precedent is no longer con sint with the law? no. and so, when you look at all the traditional factors about why we might overturn a conviction, none of them were present when dobbs came along. for that reason, people see it as not just hypocrisy, but a politically driven decision. >> donna, i think i can put this up, this is gallup polling on the supreme court approval by political affiliation. in july of 2022, 74% of republicans approved of how the court was handling its job and 13% of democrats. i don't think we've ever seen a

58-point gap where approval among the two parties looked like that. i also think we know from justice alito's own words, where he worried about, quote, assassination attempts on the conservative justices, because of the leak of the dobbs decision, and then referred it to an internal employee of the court to investigate, the worlds -- that's a very serious concern for all americans, political violence is real, we spend hours on it on this program, and if you are one of nine supreme court justices and you believe the assassination of conservative justices is a real threat, why do you look at it yourself with voluntary interviews? >> well, and all the more reason that the court should be doing whatever it can to regain the trust of the american people. i mean, i think these numbers are really shocking and the gaps between republicans and democrats based on the

composition of the court should trouble all of us. look, lawyers who appear before the supreme court have to abide by a code of ethics. judges whose cases are moved toward the supreme court have to abide by a code of ethics. and yet, the very court that is charged with upholding the rule of law and making judgments doesn't have to do that at all. and at the same time, because the court has been so politicized, it's -- the justices themselves have put themselves in a position of potentially being attacked through an act of political violence. and john roberts came onto this court and said that he wanted to restore the dignity of the court. and under his tenure, it's been anything but. and so, i don't know, nicolle, whether this is recoverable or not. i think that we're at a very dangerous moment, when the rule of law has been challenged and

the very court that is supposed to stand in the gap doesn't enjoy the trust of the american people. >> donna, i'm not sure i disagree with anything you said, but i -- i mean, it is fixable. i mean, you could go up from seven, if you demanded that your body be held to the same standards, not as normal people, but just how about other federal judges? if you said to your eight colleagues, there are only nine of them, this isn't working for anybody, justice alito thinks he's at risk of assassination, this is no good, we must do something differently. he could go testify before the house and the senate and say he supports the legislation. and i'm sure it would pass. i mean, there are not a lot of institutions that can do anything to help themselves at this point. supreme court can. >> well, and the idea that they've been wrangling over this notion of a code of ethics for months and months and months --

it's not that complicated. they grew up as baby lawyers and judges in the lower courts where they had to abide by the same. and so, i think that you're right, if the court, these nine justices, wanted this to happen, all they have to do is ask. >> brian, where do you put the odds of that happening? >> i don't think it's going to happen right away, but i think -- i think there's a change happening even if it's happening in slow motion, in terms of the culture around the court. we've talked about this before. it is remarkable and worth noting that this "washington post" story was published at all. these discussions that the justices have been having about applying a code of ethics have been taking place for four years, it's been a secret for four years, but now it's surfaced in this "washington post" reporting. why? because people in and around the court are starting to talk to outside groups and outside reporters for the first time, if not ever. and i think that this is bringing scrutiny to the court

that they're just not used to and i think sooner or later, they're going to have to adjust their systems, because as you've noted, their polling numbers are in the tank, but also, they're just not used to this sustained scrutiny of their practices and how they spend their time outside of the court. and they're entering a new phase, and i think their systems are going to have to catch up to it. but it might take awhile still. and it's going to take more attention from congress, i think. >> barbara, where do you put the olds that something will change? >> i don't nope. i think there is a possibility of change. i think chief justice roberts is a really interesting character. i think he truly does care about the reputation of the court. you know, leaders are often taught that the most important thing you have in your job is to protect the mission of the organization. and i suppose part of that instinct makes people sort of circle the wagons and say, if i'm going to protect the mission of the organization, i have to make sure intruders can't get in here and make it more difficult for us to do our job. i'm sure they are worried about

baseless allegations that make them look bad. he's got to really take seriously that the world has changed and no longer is it enough for people to simply trust the supreme court, because they said so. and so i think if he really takes to heart his idea that it's important for the public to trust the court, which is absolutely true, then i think at some point he may come around and decide that, yes, this is essential to ensure public trust. >> and he's always welcome to share any of these thoughts with us here around the table and we'd all welcome him, right? you'd all be here. brian, barbara, thank you for starting us off. donna will be back later in the program. when we come back, fascinating new details in the case of that senior fbi official who has been charged with working for the russian oligarch he was supposed to be investigating. new reporting pulls back the curtain with unbelievable new details about how charles mcgonigal operated. the journalist whose by-line is on that reporting will be our next guest. plus, you might have missed

it, but democrats this week racked up another huge victory, winning control of the state house in a key battleground state for the first time in years. what that victory means for expanding an protecting voting rights. and with it, the coming presidential election. later in the program. also later, stunning new reporting about just how involved the governor of florida's administration was in the development of an a.p. class in african american studies. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you.

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some incredible new reporting this week that reveals previously unknown details about the secret life and potential

mow tichs behind the alarming fbi plot twist that is the charles mcgonigal story. we've discussed it here in recent weeks. as the fbi new york chief, he had access to some of the most sensitive united states secrets. after he retired in 2018, he was arrested and charged with allegedly violating u.s. sanctions and taking secret payments from a powerful russian oligarch he had been or was supposed to be investigating. his ex-girlfriend spoke to "insider" about how mcgonigal panicked how the fbi ordered staff to delete whatsapp from their phones. allison guerrero didn't know exactly what he was using whatsapp for. he never used it to communicate with her, but he was on there a lot. so, he went out and bought a second iphone to use on the side. he used it almost exclusively for whatsapp.

he took the two phones with him everywhere. quote, he said he needed the iphone to contact his sources, she said. for some reason, he couldn't do it through his fbi phone. she also saw this, what is called one of the strangest twists yet in the unfolding scandal. quote, there were the sealed envelopes he'd be handed when they had dinner with a friend of his, an older man named sergei she that cover. it happened three or four times, when she and mcgonigal dated from mid 2017 to 2018. the envelopes always passed from shestakov to mcgonigal. and he would always pick up the bill. joining our coverage, "insider"

senior correspondent. matt, take us through the reporting and i'm sorry if i botched your name and any others here on the telling. >> oh, no, it's fine. so, we did actually get a comment from oleg deripaska's spokesperson and updated the story with it. you'll see what his spokesperson had to say, but anyway, to back up to the beginning of the case, charlie mcgonigal is not just an fbi special agent. he was in charge of the counterintelligence division in new york city, in the new york city field office, so, he was in charge of finding who is spying on the united states, how can we stop them, can we somehow win them over to our side. he had 150 fbi special agents working for him. and now, we found out from indictments that he's alleged to have taken bundled of cash from an individual in a car and in

other places, $225,000 in cash. his ex-girlfriend, a woman he was in relationship at the time outside of his marriage, told me she saw some of that cash on the floor of their apartment in park slope, brooklyn. and now we know he was communicating with, we don't know who, through whatsapp and the envelopes passing through this former soviet diplomat who is also his co-defendant. and we don't noah was in the envelopes. they were manila envelopes that looked like they contained documents, gir ray owe told me. they didn't look like the sort of envelopes that would contain money. we documents, we don't know. this was going on at dinners, both before and after mcgonigal held this role of great public trust at the fbi. so, this is a big problem for the fbi, especially now. this is, you know, they've been going through a lot, as everyone remembers through the last few

years, and it could get bigger, because there is a lot here that we just don't know. >> matt, tell us what deripaska's response was. >> well, the consensus here in the u.s. is that deripaska is basically joined to the hip with vladimir putin. and i believe that to be true. the underlying evidence supporting that claim is mostly classified, but the treasury department has sanctioned oleg deripaska for having acted on behalf of the kremlin and the bipartisan report by the senate intelligence committee in five volumes said that oleg deripaska conducts influence operations on behalf of the russian government all over the world in order to further stay in interest, so -- but deripaska's spokespeople do engage with western media and they do challenge these assertions, but the u.s. government has really pounded the table that he is putin's man. >> let me --

>> i'm sorry, just one more -- >> go ahead, please, yeah. oh, no, most people remember deripaska, would remember him from an incident that was at the center of robert mueller's report, where paul manafort, who was trump's campaign manager at the time, met with a suspected russian spy and gave him internal campaign polling data, something that manafort admitted to me when i interviewed him, though he denied it to special counsel robert mueller. what the mueller report asserts is that exchange was done in part to settle a debt or a dispute over money that manafort had with deripaska. manafort had been paid millions of dollars for work. there's a lot of threads here, it's a lot to keep track of. >> i think it's interesting toll bring that up. i have one more question for you, matt, and i want to bring in tracy in on this. so, the mueller investigation is

going on in '17 and '18, mcgonigal leaves in '18, does your reporting include when the insistence on a second phone to be able to rely exclusively, it sounds like, on whatsapp, on that phone, and when the envelopes of money were handed to him? >> so, these are guerrero's reck recollection, she didn't keep a diary. she remembers it coincided with a baseball game, a world series game. as far as the whatsapp, the whatsapp phone, that happened while mcgonigal was still with the fbi, because it was in response to a fbi policy. as far as the envelopes, she recalls this happened three or four times. there would be dinners where she ka cover would pay. he would spend time with them at professional sporting games. we don't know who paid for those. guerrero says mcgonigal never paid.

but the envelopes, she says it happened three or four times, both before and after mcgonigal was part of the fbi. so, he was doing that while he was assistance director of counter -- i'm sorry, special agent in charge of counterintelligence for the new york field office and it also happened, she says, after he left that post and went on into the private sector. >> tracy walder, take us through the myriad of red flags that go off for you. >> i really don't even know where to start, quite frankly, nicolle. there are so many red flags. but you know, really the first red flag that i have is really at the fbi. you know, i held a top secret clearance both at the cia and the fbi, and that comes up for reclearance every five years. it's my understanding in reading matt's excellent reporting that guerrero had a restraining order. those things should have popped up in his repolygraph. that should have been a red flag

on the fbi's part. i also think, look, i handled assets both at the cia and the fbi. this is nothing new. but typically, when i handled them, they were on my terms, and it sounds like charlie's handling them on their terms, which tells me that's grooming behavior on the part of those, well, he thinks assets, but really, they're recruiting him. and so, really, him going to baseball games with them, you know, in their sporting boxes, that right there is a red flag, also clearly the switching of the phones, to really circumvent the policy of the fbi is obviously a huge red flag. but i think one of the bigger problems lies -- that really hasn't been discussed is, you know, his reinvestigation for his clearances. why did none of this come up before, when some of it should have, because it was documented. >> tracy, what do you think is happening at the fbi in terms of answering some of those very good questions, sort of an i.g. or an inside audit of those very

good and reasonable questions? as well as sort of trying to understand the chain of command of all the state secrets he had access to. >> well, i think the damage assessment is obviously going to be very, very critical here. right now, he's clearly not been charged espionage, which i understand that, but in my opinion, this is just my hypothesis, i'm concerned about what may come out as a result of those damage assessments. yes, we need some type of an i.g. investigation, but i think it actually needs to be more than just an internal investigation. i think we may need some kind of a congressional investigation into what their processes are in terms of individuals at the fbi who have access to this -- this information, and who do have top secret clearances. not every fbi agent does. and so, i think we really need to look at that. the fbi response to robert hanson back in 2001 changed some of their procedures regarding security clearances.

but i do think that that needs to be looked at again. >> tracy walder, matt, thank you for joining us, matt, on your reporting, tracy thank you for helping us make sense of it and spending time with us today. when we come back, democrats have taken control of state legislatures all across our country. this beak, they did it again, and for our next guest, that means a golden opportunity to expand voting access, after years of seeing it stripped away by republicans. voting rights attorney marc elias will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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for the first time in nearly a dozen years, democrats in pennsylvania now control that state's house, after winning three special elections earlier this week in the pittsburgh area, claiming a slim majority over republicans, as voters in the commonwealth roundly rejected the gop in the 2022 elections, after a major emphasis on anti-abortion bills and election restrictions. while republicans still hold the state's senate, the chamber gives the newly minted house and governor josh shapiro an opportunity to govern and try to reverse some of the consequences of the big lie that have coursed through pennsylvania politics for the last two years. our next guest has been on the front lines of the legal fight to protect democracy since well before the 2020 election and has a message to the 17 states that now have governments controlled by democrats. use your power.

as marc elias writes, make 2023 the year that every democratic-controlled state enacts new laws to strengthen free and fair elections and increase voter access. enact pod new proposals to transform your election systems, while also fixing small nagging problems confronting the voters. no problem facing elections and democracy should be considered too big to tackle or too small to be addressed. do it all and do it now. it will's bring in founder of the democracy docket, marc elias. marc, tell us more about your piece. >> so, i think you got it exactly right. this is an historic moment. there's a lot of discussion last year that democrats had a once in a long time opportunity to pass voting legislation at the federal level. and we're all disappointed that didn't happen, but here's the deal. for the first time since the early 1990s, democrats control 17 states.

that have the governor and both houses of the legislature. use their power. use it now. and go big, go bold, and then keep doing more and more to expand voting rights and to prevent the big lie from corrupting our future elections. >> we had so many conversations as close to 500 voter suppression bills wound their way through 48 states. it is amazing that if you think about -- you know, even the states run by republicans had to admit that they were predicated on the lie. there was no fraud. i mean, desantis went out and bragged about his beautifully fraud-free election and then signed voter suppression legislation. now, you've got democrats with control and facts on their side. are you confident they'll be just as aggressive? >> i'm not. and that's why i'm so thrilled that you had me on today and why you do such tremendous work every day. because my fear is that the

democrats in those democratic-controlled states will look around and say, oh, we do a pretty good job, not much to do -- no. there's not a single state run by a democratic trifecta in this country that can't improve voting rights. if they need ideas, call me. i promise you, they can all improve on their voting systems to make them fairer and freer for their citizens and they can all take steps now that will prevent election subversion and efforts to undo free and fair elections in the future. >> as you're talking, i'm thinking about the effort on the other side, where there was some great reporting, i think in mother jones tying the conservative think tank heritage to the voter suppression bills. you're saying, with the facts on your side and the power in the hands of democrats, you'll help them. do you really have -- because we could start it right here, we'll invite them to the table, i mean, do you really have ideas for each

democratically-controlled state? >> let's do it. you pick a state, i'll give you ideas right now. >> michigan. michigan. >> we can do it all together. >> let's start with michigan, controlled by all women, michigan. >> sure. michigan's got a law that prohibits free rides to the polls. in 49 states, a parent can order and uber to take their child to the polls. in michigan, it's a crime for anyone to pay for someone else to be driven to the polls. do away with that law right now. that's number one. number two, michigan ought to reform their voter certification process. as we saul in 2020, it was almost hijacked successfully by the republicans. now is the time, change the way in which you certify elections in michigan to prevent another situation where donald trump is pressuring republicans at the local level not to include detroit's election results. >> okay, so, we are going to do this, marc, we're -- >> give me another state. we can keep doing this. >> i feel like i'm putting you on the spot. this wasn't planned. guest choice, pick another

state, fix it. >> new york. new york's got a ban on food and water to people in line. new york is a state that has a law similar to the one that we're all complaining about in georgia, now, i'm suing new york over that law on behalf of the naacp of brooklyn and new york, right now, can do away with that. there's a bill in the ledge slak sure to do away with it and they could pass it tomorrow. >> all right, we're going to get through all 17, we'll start again with michigan and new york, we'll build graphics and have this conversation over the next couple weeks, okay? >> thank you. >> marc, thank you for spending some time with us and for writing this piece in democracy docket. we're going to fit in a quick break, but we've got stunning new reporting today about just how much contact florida state officials have with the college board over that advanced placement african american studies course, the one that ended up drastically reworked, shall we say, after ron desantis came out swinging against it. we'll bring you that new reporting on the other side. don't go anywhere.

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♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] there's some remarkable new reporting that broke late today in "the new york times" and a story we've been covering here on this program. a newly released letter from the florida department of education to the college board on february 7th, that's just two days ago, shows that the college board was in repeated contact with members of governor ron desantis' administration when it was developing its a.p. course in african american studies. the course guidelines, which were released last week, were

significantly stripped of many of the issues that originally were in that course, including reparations and the black lives matter movement. let's bring in basil smigel and our friend donna edwards are still with us. basil, your reaction to this new reporting? >> my initial reaction is, people need to be fired. quite frankly. the college board provides a gateway, or they act at a gatekeeper for people to go to college and to achieve this dream of being able to get a college degree and get a good job, that college to career success that we always talk about. and if one person, one man, has the power to bend the college board to his will and we understand that that is a political will, that this is a political conversation, this is unlikely a conversation about

curriculum, this is a political conversation, and if one person could bend this massive, the college board and the massive power that it has in being a gatekeeper for individuals, particularly young african americans and people of color broadly that are intending to go to college, people need to get fired. >> well, donna, that is interesting, i mean, the entire political brand nationally of ron desantis is his anti-woke, sort of feverish campaign. and for the college board to participate in that, by being so reactive to a national political actor, whose entire mission is to campaign against what he smears as that which is woke, is really disturbing. >> well, this is so problematic in a host of ways. the college board has long actually stood in the way of african american students,

students of color, getting through their mire of tests and requirements, i mean, it has taken decades to try to reform the system, so that testing and -- and college studies are better reflective of students of color, and the idea that one governor, who is on his way to maybe running for president, should have the ability to control what happens for every single college student across the country, is -- i mean, it -- i think that basil is right, somebody should lose their jobs over this. i mean, this is unheard of for the kind is right. somebody should lose their job. this is unheard of with the clugs for one governor in one state perpetrating his agenda. >> basil, let me read more. the florida letter outlines a key november 16th meeting to air

differences between the state and the college board over the course. in the meeting the state claimed that the a.p. african american studies course violated regulations requiring that instruction on required topics must be factual and objective and may not distress or distort significant historical events. according to the state, the college said it should undergo revisions. the college boards saw this as integral to the class. nevertheless, by the time the course's final framework was released on february 1st, those terms had largely been removed except that intersectionality was a listed area of focus. interestingly, they can also choose conservatism and other real electives. what do you think about that? >> yeah. it's the same point. i can't understand how one

person would have so much impact to draw the college board to do this. i mean, even if the reporting is saying initially they pushed back, we know that the changes have taken place. the causal relationship here, you know, even if we can't find specific smoking gun evidence, it's pretty clear that that evidence made a difference, that those conversations made a difference. and when we think about all of the subjects now and the content that is optional, did they ask people of color, particularly teachers on the ground, whether the students feel that those issues are optional in their lives? maybe these are things that we deal with every day. maybe these are things that we have fwho choice but to confront and has that come into the conversation? and if i say nothing else in this segment, the one thing that i would want to hit home is that we need more black teachers in this country. i cannot say that enough because if we're going to solve this

problem, if the college board or other entities are not going to do this, we need front line workers in this case and that is school teachers to be able to push these issues through. >> basil, let's have that conversation tomorrow. i mean, i think we didn't even get to the fact that an ap course is not anything that anybody has to take to begin with. there's so much here. we'll see if one of the reporters on this story that broke late today can join us as well. to be continued for us. thank you both for spending time with us. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. or the wrens, with their drama free plot - tranquil and serene. the upshaws? they diy, all the time. while the nelson's play lead in their own adventure, 150 years in the making. there's a story in every piece of land. run with us and start telling yours.

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we have some happy news to ends the program on. buffalo bills damar hamlin clearly happy and healthy stepped back out into the public eye. he was accepting the nfl's alan page community award for his service. hamlin's toy drive fund-raiser racked up $9 million in the aftermath of his cardiac arrest. by the way, his on the field collapse happened just a little more than one month ago and yet this week the medical director for the nfl players' association suggested he expects hamlin to play football again. real miracle story. we'll be right back.

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