who's no expert on social media or twitter. nor is an expert from the federal government. >> it did seem like it was, i say this as someone who sort of produces intelligent -- for a living. which it's harder than it looks all say this. it was an attempt to try to produce content but, i give it a c. just from a professional -- >> although you in your colleagues i thought did a good job on that front. next time you got a quote like that, have the witness say it. >> yeah, i'll keep that in mind, chris. >> yeah, i appreciate that. thank you so much congressman. we appreciate it. that's all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. >> what they don't know is that we're sitting, maybe they do. but they started on. we're sitting like ten or 15 feet away from each other in the studio. i need to pretend like, there.

>> would you like me to read the tweet? >> now that it's my hour we can put it in. we can put in public record, that's awesome, and hilarious. i'm sorry the studio -- could hear me chortling. >> i'm glad, you know me. i love laughter. >> it was a plus television production my friend. thanks to you at home for joining us this evening. we have some big breaking news. nbc news has now confirmed that former vice president, mike pence, has been subpoenaed by special counsel jack smith. the man who's overseeing the investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. including the attack on the u.s. capitol. the news was first reported by abc news. we don't know exactly what information was sodden at subpoena. but according to abc, it comes after months of negotiations between federal prosecutors, and pence's legal team. but the special counsel's office and a spokesman for the former vice president, are

declining to comment nbc about this new development. this is the first time that the former vice president has been subpoenaed in any manner related to the 2020 elections. including by the january six house committee. back in november, pence said the reason that he wasn't testifying to the committee despite the fact that he was of course the main witness in the january 6th attack. was because it would set -- send a precedent due in part to the partisan nature of that investigation. fans didn't need to talk to the committee for the public to understand the information that he was in possession. of two of his aides, mark shirt and greg jacobs testify before a grand jury me in the doj investigation, and also publicly testify to the january six committee about the many ways former president trump and his allies pressured pence to disrupt the counting of the electoral college votes. as part of a broader effort to keep trump in power. their testimony was fairly explosive, it was understood expenses sort of way of

cooperating with the january six investigation. until pants wrote an op-ed in the wall street journal. with his account of what went down that day. pence also gave interviews to national news outlets, ones that are now part of the public record. including this one. or pence confirmed telling trump that he indeed lost the election. >> did you ever point blank say that the president, i will not do this, i will not intervene, we lost this election? >> i did. david, many times. >> we know because we learned in testimony since. that it's believed at the presidents was aware that people in that crowd, that some of them might have been armed? and that he then said, we're gonna march to the capitol and send them there anyway. he knew you were at the capitol, that lawmakers were at the capitol, what do you make of that? >> well, the presidents words

were reckless. his actions were reckless. presidents words that day, at the rally, endangered me in my family, and everybody at the capitol building. >> mike pence's name appears 572 times in the final january six report. that same report lists the ways in which pence's life was put at risk on january six, by supporters of president trump, but also how pence despite all that pressure was determined to certify the election for joe biden. from the report quote, pence was determined that unless there was eminent danger to bodily safety but he wasn't going to abandon the capitol and let the riders have a victory. having made the vice president flee, made it difficult to restart the process later that day. it was an unprecedented scene in american history. the president of the united states had riled up a mob that hunted his own vice president. despite that danger, and

despite the multiple reports of trump supporters chanting, hang mike pence that day. donald trump did not ever try to reach his own vice president while the capital was under siege. according to, pans it took trump fridays, after the attack to make any contact. >> january six was a tragic day. it would be some five days after those tragic events that the president has for an opportunity to speak with me. i walked down to the oval office, i went into the back room where we spent so many hours together. and really forged a close working relationship. obviously, it had not ended well. not when i walked into the back room, the president looked up that we. and first expressed concern about my wife and daughter, who he said he just learned were with me. throughout the day and night of january six and seven. i answer to him sternly, that we were fine. he asked me if why --

i was afraid. i told him, no, mister president i was angry. i was angry about our differences, and i was also infuriated -- that day. people ransacking the capitol. and breaking glass and assaulting law enforcement officers. >> trump has not seized his attacks against pants, instead he's asked over and over that pence didn't do the right thing. that he failed, that he was a coward. and he has said much, much worse. and now it appears that mike pence will finally be asked patel's side of the story. under oath. joining us now to help understand how all of this works, and what's gonna happen next, is former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, barb mcquade, and carroll leonnig, national -- moshing can post. thank you for being here tonight. you are wonderful sources to help explain what's gonna happen next year. and barb, i want to start with. you we know this is a subpoena, but we're also being told that it comes after months or at

least several weeks of negotiating between the vice president and former vice presidents legal dame. and the doj. is this a friendly subpoena, it's such a thing exists, in other words the sesame into provide mike pence coverage and cooperate for the doj investigation do you think? >>, while we don't know. but it's absolutely a possibility, alex. it's not unusual for the prosecutors to reach out to witnesses and if they will come and willingly, voluntarily, to bring them in without a subpoena. sometimes witnesses refused to come. without a subpoena. you need to compel them to come. get a court order. and other times witnesses say, i'm willing to come but i need a subpoena so that i can explain to others that i didn't come voluntarily. it wasn't my idea to share information against someone who used to be a not lie. -- political followers. i am only responding to the subpoena because you're making me. i've seen that happen. that people sometimes request to subpoena so that they can

say, and simply complying with the law, it's not my idea here, but i have no choice. >> i want to ask both of you, what you asked mike pence? we do know a fair amount given the interviews he sat for, or the op-eds he's pat, in the book he's written. carol leonnig, what's the question, when you're leading questions, what are your top of my questions for the vice president if you were an investigator with the doj? >> you're right. you're so right, alex. so much of what pence experienced that day has been recorded in the pages of my newspaper, in various books. but to me it seems really critical that the special counsel, jack smith, wants pence in an interview room to get more deeply into what the president said to him. what the president said, what words they exchange, and that goes to ultimately former president donald trump's state of mind as he was pulling all of these different levers,

increasingly desperately trying to hold on to the power, and try to block it overturn the election results. for, example i want to ask pants, what did donald trump say to you about those in losing the election? what did he say in terms of acknowledging whether or not he thought he'd lost? i'd also get at, vice president pence, do you remember what the president said to you about his strategy for holding on to power? what did he say about the electors, what did he say to you about whether or not he believed the claim that was given that pence would have this incredible power to basically reject the certification of the vote. which actually, as you know, and i know barbara knows, the lawyer who propose that donald trump would later acknowledge that there was nowhere that what, work he didn't even think it was feasible. >>, aruba let's follow on what carroll saying in terms of the state of mind. how does it factor into the

potential charges here? what are the legal repercussions if they can establish a state of mind via the president and isn't intentionality in terms of inciting an insurrection? >> i've always thought, alex, the best charge available here is not so much inciting the insurrection. which i think he has some challenges under the first amendment. but instead, the charge of conspiracy to defraud the united states. that, is i knew i lost this election, and i try to steal it back anyway. mike pence is a critical component of that. it was trying to persuade mike pence, publicly, privately, on twitter and at the rally to thwart the counting of the votes. to abuse his power, i think all of those questions that carole just said go to donald trump's knowledge of fraud, and intent to persuade mike pence to abuse his power. if that could be proven, you need not even prove that donald trump incited the insurrection.

i think that's gonna stand or fall based on some of the facts that are already known. i think the committee did something really interesting with regard to that theory. which is not so much the speed -- of the ellipse. but the failure to do anything for three hours. and making the tweet that says, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what was necessary. we demand answers. which fuels on the fire, and renewed the vigor of the protesters and causing them to start shopping, hang mike pence. the things that donald trump said to mike pence, that could reveal whether he knew he actually lost the election. and that what he was doing was an improper effort to retain office. there's conversations that -- could provide detail on. but there's also conversations where mike pence was alone with donald trump. and that's why think it's critically important that we hear directly from mike pence about those conversations. >> to follow a, nappies this is the import of this testimony is

so significant. what can trump do to stop pants? there is conflicting reports about whether this is being set up for a fight over executive privilege do you think that's the case? what levers are there for trump to prevent pants from divulging the secrets that he's fought so hard to keep and glow -- ? >> donald trump blizzard executive privilege and try to stop this i think he will fail. it's a grand jury subpoena which is a little different from some of the january six subpoenas we. saw its votes to be secret. we know about it because there's a report about. it -- but the witness himself is permitted to disclose granberry material. mike pence could in good conscience, say that there is a potential executive privilege -- sharing it with the former president. and casey wants to assert a privilege, donald trump will assert a privilege. under the president of the united states versus nixon, when the supreme court said that the grand jury's entitled

to everyone's evidence. and that in certain situations, although there is executive privilege it must yield when there is an interest of paramount importance. and -- courts have held that within regards to the january six committee, when it came to white house documents, that were subpoenaed from a national archives. they expect that same result here. i think trump will try, he'll fail. >>, carole at the risk of reading too much into the presidents prolific use of social media. he spent a long time as your while aware, vilifying mike pence. calling him all manner of names. but, recently with and i think the last several weeks. he sent out a conciliatory kind of message about my pants vis-à-vis the classified documents that were found at mike pence's residence. effectively, sadly mike pence alone, he's a good man. anytime the former president decides to play nice with someone he spent almost a career making fun of. -- or diminishing.

i think it's worth trying to understand why. i wonder if at all you think that could be a preemptive move to potentially curry favor with mike pants, ahead of what could be fairly damaging -- might make to la grange or e. i know it's a lot of ifs, i know there's a lot of supposition. i just wonder if there's any chance in this scenario that mike pence is -- any of the words of donald trump? >> those are three great questions built in there, alex. i'll try to take them quickly. let's go backwards, mike pence, i don't think he's gonna be influenced by anything donald trump says at this point. i reported on what pence's day was like at the capitol on january six. huddling with his wife, daughter, her husband, his aides. in a basement trying to stay safe. but also trying to remain in the capital so that he could finish the job that donald trump didn't want him to do. he's pretty much broke in our

relationship, with donald trump because he believe donald trump put him and his family in such grave danger for what reason is obvious. >> second, you asked is it possible that pence is trying, forgive me if trump is trying to win over pants? it's always possible, but i think your first theory has a little more strength. which is that donald trump is worried about his classified records exposure right now. this is a case that's probably causing the former president the most sleepless nights, because it's the easiest case to establish that he was engaged in potential obstruction of subpoenas, seeking classified records. remember his team asserted to the department of justice that they've done a diligent search, and that the fbi agents coming to the department of gianna -- low and behold they find a bunch more classified documents. i think donald trump was often

focused on donald trump is mostly excited to say, look, pence had them to he's a good guy, he didn't do anything wrong, same here. >> silly me, i thought it could be a long gone for the january six investigation but of, course i think it direct carroll, it's the most obvious answer was he's just trying to mitigate potential damage from the looming, potential looming credible indictment at his front door down amara -- barber locating caroline, and thank you for joining us as we deal with this breaking news in trying to understand where it's all adding. thank you for your time. >> thanks,. alex >> we have a lot to get to tonight including a vastly undercover story about one judges decision that could affect the lives of millions of americans as soon as tomorrow. plus the first hearing a new republican of subcommittee examining the weaponization of the federal government. well the fireworks that republicans are trying to, set off actually end up burning their own thinkers? that's not a rhetorical

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>> there were a lot of shocking images on january six. images of violence, vandalism, and description or nation's capital. but one of the most iconic and jarring images from that day may have been this one.

a rioter proudly carrying the confederate flag through the halls of congress. today that rioter, who carry that flag into the capital, 53-year-old kevin siegfried. was sentenced to three years behind bars for his role in that attack. as kevin sea freed was being handed that three-year sentence, just a few blocks away. republicans were holding their first hearing for the new subcommittee on what they call, the weaponization of the federal government. they call this one of their first witnesses, senator ron johnson. -- their investigation should focus on whether or not rioters, like kevin sea frayed, were being treated unfairly. whether january six was really the justice department's fault to begin with. >> serious questions regarding injustice of unequal application of justice and violation of january six defendants, due process we may not answer. how many federal agents informants, were in the crowd? >> that's what the

weaponization committee plans to focus on according to ron johnson. justice for january six rioters and the baseless conspiracy, that the fbi -- in the crowd to rile up innocent trump supporters. it's not all january six conspiracy though. they are gonna focus on covid as well. >> federal health officials deny patients early treatment, to this day they refuse to acknowledge the extent of significant injuries caused by the covid vaccines. have emails also revealed fauci's attempt to hide his -- agency's role in funding dangerous research? in the might've led to the creation of the coronavirus? this is also becoming obvious that the world health organization is being captured by the chinese government. the global institutions in general have been captured by the lap. and that some charitable foundations are exerting far more power over public policy than should be allowed. >> did you get all of that?

senator johnson says that the committee should focus on the -- safety of coronavirus vaccine. new studies estimate save more than 3 million lives and kept another 18 million people out of the hospital. he wants them to investigate the unhinged conspiracy that doctor anthony fauci was somehow response-able for causing coronavirus in the first place. and he wants congress to use its resources to look into whether china and the left, are somehow taking over global institutions. because democrats made the y decision to participate in these hearings, they were able to call the very own witnesses today, and democrats chose congressman and former january six impeachment manager, jamie raskin to be there for -- first witness. and his ongoing battle with cancer, congressman raskin laid bare exactly what is at the heart of this new committee's mission. >> millions of americans already fear that weaponization is the right name for the special subcommittee. not because weaponization of

the government is its target. but because weaponization of the government is its purpose. the odd name of the weaponization subcommittee constitutes the case of pure, psychological projection. -- accuse you of doing something they're usually telling you exactly what their own plans are. of course a serious bipartisan committee focused on weaponization of the government. with zero -- on the trump administration. at solve trump and his obliging sycophantic attorney general like jeffrey sasse -- pressured career prosecutors to go hard, go soft in particular cases. always seeking to reward trump's friends, or to punish the enemies. if weaponization of the department of justice -- this is at. >> that's the state of play here. and if this is how it all starts, where does it go from

here. joining us now is mckay koch, staff writer at the atlantic. and author of the upcoming book, romney a reckoning. which will be out this october. we're gonna talk about very shortly. mccabe, thank you for joining me tonight. i want to get right to the numbers here. we've talked a lot about this strange rabbit hole of paranoia that certain factions of the gop have plunged us into. but the american public does not seem to be buying it if you look at the polling washington post -- abc poll found margins of 56 to 36% of americans think this committee is just an attempt to score political points. and only 11% of respondents believe that government agencies are bias against liberals. what do you think is the pure political calculation of having this weaponization committee people by the people, the folks we see on dak here asking the questions they're asking? >> yeah, i think like so much

of the republican party today, the whole spectacle is targeting at the base. the small percentage relatively small percentage of americans who are fully immersed in these narratives. what the thing about the hearing that struck me was not that they were trying to go into a congressional hearing which is fox news primetime. but that most of the topping points they were laying out were almost, difficult to understand for the average american. it wasn't that they were biased, that they were right-wing talking points it's that unless you are swimming in the water of conservative media, it's very difficult to even follow the narratives that they're playing out. i think what's happened over the last several years in the republican party is that as they focused more and more on the core supporters. if china lost the ability to

make a popular persuasive argument to the majority of americans. >> that's such a good point, they're using the shorthand of those that where the tinfoil hat. and ignoring the rest of the american public. the strategy there employing is the opposite for example of the january six committee. that's trying to bring the american public again. it's very television, will there wasn't insider jargon, this is all about, even sara could be sandra's response at the state of the union was crtc, latinx, these terms that if you weren't deep in mashed in the paranoid world of fox news, you would not know what they were talking about. it seems, a foregone conclusion that this is the path of charted, and they're gonna continue to go down. do you think anybody who is outside the fringe center, the fringes that are at the center of republican power in congress these days, can have a word with them? and i want to get to mitt romney, i just wonder if the establishment, or those that

are still a sound mind and body within the gop can talk to them about this? >> yeah, i think i can say with some confidence that there are still republicans who are trying to reason with what you call -- increasingly the mainstream of the party. they're having a very difficult time making the case, what you see is the mitt romney, is john mccain's, liz cheney's of the party over the last five years were turned into pariahs. these were people that were once the leaders of the establishment, the kind of faces of the party, there are now on the fringe themselves of their own party. they don't have a ton of sway, they don't get listen to in caucus lunch, as they don't get invited on fox news to make their case, that the average conservative voter. they don't have the influence

they ones dead, i don't think that they given up, i don't don't think that the average maga or -- person was planning that committee feels any need to listen to them. >> i just wonder if that's, if they've been given an ounce of a chance to scold the erratic, paranoia conspiracy theories among. them i want to focus on this, moment it happened at the state of the union, omicron effectively -- george santos. and you, know santos comes out looking like a loser i think in this interaction, the force of the statesman's words, the force of the elders of the party matters when those words are delivered forcefully. i wonder if you think that we're gonna hear more of that. is mitt romney for a lack of a better term, unleashed at this stage of the game, when he sees what's becoming of the party? you have special access to the man, erecting a book about, him just how animated is he by this?

>> yeah i think what struck me about that moment with george santos, is that it does illustrate where mitt romney as at this moment. it also illustrates the fact that what men romney to saying what to george santos, is not a out on a limb opinion. if you talk to the average establishment -- whatever that. means you talk to the average normal republican in congress, they would agree with what he says. but they don't say it. and they certainly don't say it that way. they don't confront george santos the way that mitt romney did. they don't confront the wing that's another party have, or what mitt romney does his gift at this moment is not that he has some original insight, it's that he's willing to say that -- most republicans aren't gonna say. without stepping on lots in my book, it's coming out in october. i think you'll hear a lot more from him along these lines. i don't think that was an isolated incident. >> potentially, deportees the

air, what role romney may have paid an empowering the forces within the gop? i'm just gonna leave it there, make a. >> let's leave it there. >> the, buckeye sumy finished writing at, so you know what's in there, we're gonna read and have you back, mckay coppins, thank you for joining my friend. great to see you. >> you. tail >> still more to come tonight. including a potential bombshell decision that's expected out of a federal court in tax, as one that could happen the lives of millions as soon as tomorrow. you don't want to miss that story. and turmoil at the supreme court has put a spotlight on the fact that the justices themselves aren't bound by any particular code of ethics. we'll talk to someone who has a plan to fix all that. that's coming up, next. g up, next ♪3, 4♪ ♪ ♪hey♪ ♪

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great party, carly. from 9 to none. you must have blown your budget. not exactly.

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confidence is at a historic low. an institution that has truly too many controversies to count at this point. whether or not you care about the leak of the draft opinion of the court's decision to overturn roe v. wade, which was authored by justice samuel alito. the court's investigation into that leak has been incredibly tallying. all rank and file supreme court employees are required to sign affidavits, swearing that in like the decision. that the justices themselves or not. that investigation led to a whistleblower coming forward, alleging that way back in 2014, he received an early heads up about the landmark hobby lobby, contraceptive decision. another -- now justice alito denied disclosing the decision, and that seems to be how that story. ends with no one pressing the justices. last, year clarence thomas was the lone dissent against a supreme court decision -- obtain trump's presidential records. months, later the washington

post -- jimmy, had texted with trump's chief of staff, mark meadows in the lead up to january six. urging trump to overturn the election results. any lower court judge would be forced to recuse. clarence thomas, -- none of this is shall we say a good look. nor is it normal for our country's justice system. that's why today, democratic senator, chris murphy and hank johnson, introduced bills to make ethics rules for the highest court in this land. joining us now is the man himself, chris murphy, senator from connecticut. senator murphy, thank you for being with us tonight. can you tell me what you want to do in the spell? >> we want to do is simple. we want to make sure that -- on a federal bench as a coastal condo that the american -- can see that applies to them. as you mentioned right now, there's only nine justices that

have no code of conduct that's outrageous, especially in a moment where we're seeing this rather outline jason transparent integration between the conservative justices on the, court in the broader conservative movement. you mentioned, this case in which there is a serious allegation that justice alito or one of his family members tool conservative activists ahead of time about a contraceptive decision, the court said, while there's no evidence there is an ethical standard, breached what ethical standard. there is no set of standards that applies to the supreme court, they're exempt. we're calling for here is an independent body that excess, a judicial conference. to set up a code of conduct that will look very much like the appellate court judges, district court judges are held to. at the very, least we know what rules apply, what rules don't apply to the supreme court, we're at a moment of crisis of

legitimacy when it comes to the, court the court would be helped by having this total contact that everyone can see? >> it's someone on the court violates the code of affix. is there punishment? what kind of enforcement mechanism do you see here? >> this is the real problem, it's probably beyond the bounds of the legislative branch, to provide an enforcement mechanism in our bill. we would establish a form of independent counsel, who could undertake investigations. but sanctioned what action -- up to the supreme court itself. just like sanction of members of congress. it's ultimately up to congress. but we have a code of, affix we have a process by which investigation is done on a member of congress. it's simply what we want to happen here. have a binding code, having a process of investigation and then -- the american public can see it, it'll provide pressure on the

president says to take accent if the code is been violated. >> what kind of intel do you have on the courts argument against something like this? >>, well here is a theory of the case. we've had this remarkable report in which the supreme court has been talking about a code for four years. clearly, there is a group of justices who think this is a good idea. and there's a group of justices we think it's not a good idea. justice roberts, justice alito, they've testified before congress in the past about their disdain, or their skepticism about this code. my worry is, that conservative justices on the court don't really think judges, they don't think they should be bound by the same total combat does every other federal court judge. their policy makers, not judge. as they're making -- >> not interpreting law. the new justices, gorsuch, kavanaugh, coney barrett, they ran campaigns for the supreme court. just like we run campaigns for

elected office in the legislator. my worry is that they don't believe that they should be bound by the code that every other justices bound by. because they think they aren't judges, they believe their policy makers. >> i think they're probably people magical peyton enjoy the fact that they're making law. they're effectively the functioning branch of the republican party in a lot of ways. the republicans in the legislator are busy having hearings about covid coming from mars or wherever. other republicans, conservative justices on the court a crafting law. i had a magic and that the republican caucus has probably -- to do anything that would curb that ability to do something like that. do you have a sense that there is any kind of bipartisan support for what you're proposing here? >> this is been the clear strategy from the beginning. to understand your point, republicans want for america is deeply unpopular, what would be the invalidation of the affordable care act, or a bad

on abortion, these are things you can't get passed through an elected legislator, the only thing you can impose that engine down the country, just through an unelected body like the supreme court. yes, of course the whole strategy is to put the policy makers on the supreme court. because the policies are unpopular, they can't move through the elected branch. i think republicans should have cared about this as well. there's smaller bits of evidence that the more progressive justices are sometimes attending these political conferences that the conservative justices more often go to. it's bad for the ultimate legitimacy of democracy. if everybody thinks, -- the supreme court. lindsey graham's expressed interest in proposals like this. and will continue to try and find some partners across the aisle. right now as you said, republicans seem to like the fact that policymaking -- on the supreme court. >> senator chris murphy, we wish you luck in your bed to restore some integrity to an

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through a rigorous scientific process. they shouldn't have to go through the kind of political process that -- has had to deal with. >> the fda approved the drug in september 2000, more than 22 years ago. it's been you safely ever sets by millions of people. it's called mid -- it stops the production of almost necessary for pregnancy. and it's one of two drugs typically used in medication abortion. as of 2022 more than 54% of abortions in the u.s. happen with these bells. not. surgery and that percentage is increased in the months since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade. perhaps for that reason, conservative groups have been targeting mill support stone, since the job decision -- that little pell, which is barely bigger than aspirin is the new frontier of the fight over abortion access in this country. already 18 states have established restrictions on the pell. with some trying to cut off mail access to the drug. and others threatening the

pharmacist to provide the medication. -- but as soon as tomorrow, the federal garage and texas -- donald trump could make a decision that would up and access to -- nationwide. which means, nationwide. that includes blue states, like california and new york. it includes states that have recently enshrined access to abortion and their state constitution. like michigan and vermont. no matter where you live, this could impact you. a conservative group called alliance defending freedom, which by the way the poverty law center considers a hate group, that group brought a case against the fda, november, to challenge the approval of -- which, again happened 20 years ago. the group claims the fda lacked the authority to approve the drug. it didn't study its safety and efficacy. they -- want judge cuts merrick to issue an injunction blocking all access to -- and revoke the fda's approval

of a. tomorrow is a deadline for brief from the plaintiff adding to the fda, once those briefs are earning just as american make the decision to block access to -- swiftly as soon as tomorrow if judge has merrick just designed to lock the use of the drug administration is expected to quickly file an appeal. even, then this case is expected to work its way to the conservative row ending supreme court. joining us now is nancy north, a president and ceo of the center for reproductive rights. nancy, thanks for being here tonight. >> thanks for following this story. >> it is, this is literally a five alarm -- if you care about reproductive freedoms. the fact that it's applicable nationwide, we're talking about -- the form of abortion they and shoes would be not available to people all over the country. how likely do you think it has that will get a ruling on this

tomorrow. and what is your level of optimism here? >>, by what start with i'm sure your listeners are saying how is it even possible that this can ban medication abortion nationwide. it's because, as you pointed out in your opening, they've said that the fda approval back over 22 years ago was not correct. and it's fundamental -- lay the science and the fact supported. , where you and hiler, because if not -- before a judge, they shop the forum, in amarillo,, texas before a judge who has a very anti abortion, anti contraceptive record. , so the concern is that he could while role that the fda, although a gab, baseless. that the fda should not approve this, which would mean that he might -- across the nation. we are of hiding concern about that. but again, your listeners should note, the medication abortion is safe, effective, 22

years plus. over 5 million women in the united states have used medication abortion as you pointed out. it's the method of choice for most people in their red states. >> what's the recourse here? the biden administration is likely to file an appeal. but if there's not a stay on the injunction. this freeze has access to -- across the country. there could be women who need abortions within the next days, weeks, what recourse do they have in a moment like this. >> first, of all it will create chaos. of course clinics across the nation are following this. and they're thinking what -- i'm looking at that. we'll see what the ruling will be. a recreate more crisis on top of the crisis that's already happening. many people are accessing medication abortion, the fda is also found it to be safe, effective by telemedicine. so, of all the sudden clinics need to switch on people

getting telemedicine, medication abortion, safe and effective at-home. to having to come home -- from that changes entirely the access framework. it's hugely problematic. again, it shows that the ultimate goal was never as a supreme court sad. roe v. wade is overturned. we're sending it back to the states to decide. the ultimate goal is to ban it for everyone nationwide. >> what should women do or people that need abortions. the need access to -- and think that they live in a state where they can't gain access to a surgical abortion? what are they doing right now, what do you advise people who are alarmed, they're just finding this. out they call or doctors, yes, -- >> i think no matter what the court rules, if people have an abortion scheduled, or attala health. as if they were gonna get medication. abortion is called your clinic for. as five now first what's happening. don't assume that you know. i'll go to assume that -- that you saw new show that

maybe you're ready to take action. go ahead -- and look at another credible resources -- planned parenthood, in a panic clinic -- abortion funds and all the places that you forget. -- the attorney general has information on her website. , all those places, we're trying to get the information first, don't just assume. >> it's very hard, i think because not enough attention's been paid to this issue. it's hard to fathom could be on our doorstep. literally, in the next 24 hours. and the chaos as you say, layer on top, what's already an unacceptable situation as far as women's access to reproductive freedoms. nancy, thank you for coming here. thank you for doing the work you're doing. please keep us posted as this case makes its way through the courts. >> absolutely. >> ending where we don't know. we'll be right back. be right back.

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