the correspondents. our mission of judgeism here. i count my lucky stars every day to be part of this group. consider this a good bye for now. i hope you keep tuning into jose and andrea and chris and katie and gaudy and the rest of the team at news now. thank you enough for watching. thank you for today, for all of those years, thank you for a great ride. nicolle picks it up with deadline after a quick break. is. headlino, everything, it is 4:00 in new york. like a high speed collision, a pair of exceedingly consequential stories breaking this afternoon. intersecting in realtime. at the center of today's convergence, an emerging tension between vice president mike pence and the united states department of justice. on one hand, this morning we

learned the fbi searched pence's home in indiana and looking for any classified documents. we understand an additional classified document was discovered and removed and this was a so you will can aed consent search. which means it is one that was agreed to by both sides without the need for a search warrant issues in advance. but he was not eager to welcome the investigators. "the new york times" has reported this. negotiations on such a search were a rising tension between the two sides. the historic nature of an fbi search of a former vice president's home should not be diminished. but as we said, all of that is a back drop, half of the complete picture coming into focus this afternoon. because on the other hand, as we sit here, pence is now the subject of a subpoena. from the justice department relating to donald trump's efforts to hold on to power in the aftermath of the 2020 election. remember mike pence never spoke to the january 6 select

committee. but time and again, "the new york times" has reported that pence views the justice department's investigation as fundamentally different from the now complete house inquiry. but thanks to the 1/6 committee and their interviews with witnesses, we have a decent idea of what pence might say. for example on the vice president's power, listen to what greg jacob told the committee. >> what was vice president pence's reaction when he showed him the email where dr. eastman after the attack on the capitol still asked that the vice president delay certification and send it back to the states? >> he said, that says rubber room stuff. >> i'm sorry, he said it's rubber room stuff? >> yes, congressman. >> what do you interpret that to mean? >> that that was certifiably crazy. >> certifiably crazy. i think i like that. interestingly, both

investigations, the one into trump's handling of classified documents, and the one into his actions leading up to and on january 6, are being led now by special council jack smith. on that, the times reports this, mr. smith has vowed to expedite the investigation into trump and has moved to consolidate and focus what was seen inside of the department as a sprawling inquiry floor trump's efforts to overturn the election and the january 6 attack. that is according to people familiar with the situation. smith's staff led by thomas wyndham, a veteran prosecutor who had been working out of the office of the u.s. attorney in washington, has poured through hundreds of witness transcripts, turned over by the house committee that investigated the january 6 attack. and that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporter bz and friends. andrew weissmann is here. a former general counsel for the fbi. with us at the table. "new york times" washington correspondent author of "donald

trump against the united states" and andrew, i turn to you first, on whether this is a coincidence that the search happens in the same news cycle in which we learn of a subpoena for mike pence. >> well, joyce vance reminded me there is no such thing and i'm loathe to ever disagree with joyce vance. but this is where i do think it is a coincidence that we see these two things colliding at the same time. you know, i just don't think that they're related. i think their separate issues that have -- and you could understand the timeline for both of them. i actually think that the one that is really potentially much more interesting is the grand jury subpoena to mike pence. i think that is the one where i

think it shows tenacity by jack smith's team and i think it is really important to have him under oath and locked in, in a way that he can't sort of wiggle out later or reduces the ability of to do that. they have a tool that the january 6 committee didn't have and they're not afraid to use it. and it -- this is again now, i'll say something positive, joyce said this, it is really important to know if you are a prosecutor, is pence going to help you in certain ways, is he going to hurt you in certain ways. you have to know the lay of the land, is he going to be consistent with other evidence or inconsistent and one big thing that we don't know yet, nicolle, is what is he going to say about the direct communications he had with the former president. so, it is fine to learn what he said to his staff and to his

counsel and what his views were of the law, but what was the communication about any about that with the former president. because that is going to be really critical to the prosecution where you have to show the former president's intent. so this could be really good. it could be not so good. and it is really important for jack smith to know that information in deciding whether to bring charges. >> andrew weissmann, what does it mean that their at the subpoenaing mike pence stage of their criminal investigation? >> so, my take on this, i know there are people who think that this may show that they are sort of at the last end point and that the decision about whether to charge or not is thus imminent. i'm not so sure that is right. because there could be litigation over this and so if you're jack smith you want to get this teed up and moving

soother rather than later. depending on what mike pence said in the grand jury, you may want to do additional investigations and figure out whether it is corroborated or inconsistent with another piece of evidence. so, i don't take from this that this is sort of an end point to the investigation. i think it certainly is an important step. i certainly don't think it is something to do with the very beginning of an investigation. but i'm not yet convinced that this is signaling that we're toward the end. >> mike schmidt, we know that his most senior white house aides have been before the grand jury. we also know that we know what crimes, at least the one congressional committee that looked into trump's conduct believed he committed, the obstruction of official proceeding and intent to defraud and there is one more. what is this that pence unlocks for jack smith?

>> well i think we don't know. i think that is sort of the issue. is that we don't know about every conversation that he had with trump. we haven't heard from him in a full way. we've never heard from pence. in any of the investigations that have gone on into trump. we've heard pence in a "wall street journal" op-ed and in his book. and his aides. but never under oath, even dating back to the mueller investigation which he was able to wiggle out of having to cooperate with. so, i think that is this sort of unknown, is that are there other conversations that happened in this period of time? i think we thought time and time again we understand the timeline that is sort of critical, january 4th and 5th and the meetings leading up to it, around january 6 and what eastman was doing. but we have not had that full picture. so, that is something that, to

andrew's point, if you're building this prosecution, or if you're trying to figure out what to do about donald trump, you need to know what those conversations look like and even maybe there are things that trump said to pence that really helped trump in this and would hurt the prosecution. >> do you think? >> i don't know. but it is -- >> well we know from ivanka he called him the p-word and from the tape that he ran for his bleeping life and mark short told the secret service that mike pence might be in danger tomorrow. here is the tape. do we think he actually believes something would help trump or would he say something that would help trump because he wants to be president? >> you don't know. but you need to know everything that the witness knows. because if you're ever to use them as trial, they would be cross-examined and, you know, the president's lawyers would have a chance to ask him questions and to push him and such. >> you mean if that helps or hurts the case. >> correct. you have to have the full picture. >> joyce, what do you think mike pence means to jack smith?

>> i think mike has it exactly right. you have to know what is going to say. in december, last december, mike pence gave an interview and he said he didn't think that trump should be prosecuted. he said -- >> he said it was reckless, not criminal. >> we'll look for that. that is an important piece. >> here is the deal. it is not mike pence's job to decide who committed crimes or who didn't. he's a fact witness in this case. but if he's going to make that characterization, you want to know what he will say that might hurt your case or might help. and this is a little bit like investigating a conspiracy to rob a bank and not having spoken to one of the potential key co-conspirators. any other case, mike pence would have been under oath a long time ago and the under oath part is key. as a fact witness, as a prosecutor, you need to lock him in and know what his testimony is going to be when the chips are down. >> because you can't rely on him and then have him end up being a

witness the defense calls? >> once the jury is impanelled, right, that is it, the government only gets one shot at trying its case. if you go into a trial without knowing what mike pence is going to say, then everything is up in the air. but you do know that at least in the past he has indicated that he has sympathy which is unimaginable because we've watched all of the times that trump backed up on mike pence. >> it is also not in the line -- the whole leaving your staffers on field as foot soldiers letting them hang out while you defy your congressional subpoenas. let me show the tape joyce just mentioned. >> well, i don't know if it is criminal to listen to bad advice from lawyers. truth is, what the president was repeating is what he was hearing from that gaggle of attorneys

around him. and, um, you know, presidents like all of us, in a certain life, you have to rely on your team and the credibility of the people around you. and, so, you know, as -- as time goes on, um, i hope -- i hope we could move beyond this. >> mike pence has walked this very unusual dance over the past, i guess, six years. what does mike pence want? he wants to run for president in 2024. he knows to do that, he has to somehow do it in a way that he could tie the thread between what is left of trump's base, and sort of the traditional deeply conservative part of the republican party. if he's going to do that, he can't go willingly in to speak

with the investigators. because he'll be seen as a turn-coat. >> this is sean bolten's predicament too. during impeachment one. do you think his attorney, who is very skilled at this, sought a subpoena. >> i think his attorney emmet flood probably wanted there to be a subpoena because there is such a complicated thing with executive privilege and other questions that will come up on trump's side. but pence has shown himself to be very skilled at navigating this sort of, you know -- he was able to remain vice president for four years which in trump's world is i guess something. >> longer than most. >> so if he's going to have a political future, he has to go kicking and screaming into speak to the grand jury. because if he's seen as willingly going, he's going to lose a lot of support. if he's able to, and it is a bank shot and a bank shot on a bank shot to make it work.

but i think that is where he finds himself. >> and andrew weissmann, does that matter? does say prosecutor like jack smith care about mike pence's presidential ambitions? >> i doesn't care about that. but to mike's point, he thinks about that motive about whether it leads to his coloring, in his testimony. let me give you a fine point on how mike pence could hurt the prosecution and that jack smith needs to know it. and it goes to the clip that joyce pointed out. where he said, you know, this is just essentially a disagreement between lawyers. so mike pence could say, look, i listened to my lawyer who said that i don't have the ability to override the will of the people, that there is no flexibility. but when i was speaking to donald trump, i did not tell him what my lawyers said. i didn't tell him those communications. and donald trump was telling me

that he was hearing from his own separate lawyers that i do have that discretion. so this is just a good-faith dispute about a legal issue. that is not a criminal case. that means that jack would have to pursue saying why that is wrong. but that is a way that mike pence could hurt. now he may not say that. but this is why it is really important to lockdown his testimony and, remember, he will be under oath. so that whatever his motives are in terms of his political ambitions, putting him in the grand jury under oath and in front of at least 23 civilians, who will be watching him, does tend to cause people to sometimes say what -- the actual truth of what is going on even if it is not in their political best interests. >> could we pars out what he means by his lawyers. his lawyers are cipollony, rosen and we've heard them testify before the january 6 select

committee. you're talking about eastman, the guy also under criminal investigation? >> yeah, absolutely. there is no question that the universe lawyers that donald trump is going to point to start to looking thread bare. but it is going to be eastman, it could be rudy, it could be even -- it could be sidney powell. we're not talking about david kendall, to take the other extreme. but it doesn't matter from a criminal perspective if there is a lawyer who the jury believes is giving the client sort of good faith advice. that is a big if. the prosecution needs to know that. because they're going to need to say, no, this wasn't good faith. this was something that they didn't believe. and so for instance, if mike pence said i communicated to the president that former judge

ludig told me this is not a valid theory, that is a really good fact for the government because judge ludig is -- it is like david kendall. he's a pre-eminent lawyer. and you're going to want to say that to a jury that you can't weigh sidney powell against judge ludig. but you need to know that. and that is why it is so important to have him under oath, with a transcript and a tape recording as to exactly what he said so he can't later say the fbi got it wrong, that is not what i really said. >> and this sounds like it is around the crimes that were referred that pertained to obstruction of an official proceeding. he was also referred for insurrection. what lawyer told him to join the violent insurrectionist chanting hang mike pence. >> exactly. so andrew is doing what good prosecutors do and what jack smith has to do. he's thinking about what could this witness say that might hurt me. i need to know that. there is tremendous potential

upside in getting mike pence's testimony. because in essence, they are trying to recruit him as a co-conspirator into their conspiracy, or that is the theory that jack smith has to be working on. we don't know, as mike pointed out, what we don't know. there is at least one conversation between trump and pence. we get little snippets from it. of people who overheard one side or the other. what was actually said, only mike pence or donald trump could testify to that. and what other conversations did they have? because trump was fiercely intent on getting pence to carry out this rule, this last gasp of interfering with biden's election. there is no telling what comes to light when mike pence is under oath with no escape valve. and i think we've both heard earlier today people suggesting that pence doesn't want to testify. that maybe he won't testify. here is the thing about a federal grand jury subpoena. they're not optional. right. you could assert executive

privilege. but when you have written a book, when you've given interviews, you are out of options. and jack smith who is a fierce prosecutor and known for making cases, we don't know yet if he'll make a case. but he will get his man in front of the grand jury. >> and what -- mike schmidt, do we believe the reaction in trump world is. when people tell the truth, i think jamie raskin had a great line about it. until cassidy hutchinson and john kelly is the subject of your new reporting, in your book, mark milley and until his -- my generals and my staff, tells the truth, they're inside the family if you will. once they tell the truth, they're sort of cast about. it is as mark pomeranz writes, similar to a mob family. >> i think the break with pence has been, you know, gone for a long time. i think the relationship has begun gone for a long time. dating back to everything that happened on january 6.

so i'm not sure that it changes that much. i'm sure that trump is on truth social saying mean things about mike pence. and he should be careful, because in that area, once again, he's sort of playing in that obstruction sort of area with where he knows mike pence is going in and trump has said anything and never suffered any consequences for any rhetoric around witnesses and such. so that is certainly one area. but the relationship seems like it has been severed for a long time. and it is really been for pence to deal with. if you looked at that clip that we saw before, that is pence trying to figure out a way to sort of not look like an insurrectionist that supports donald trump, that also could say something that, you know -- he's trying to do that dance again. and it is more of a problem for him than it is for trump. trump doesn't need pence any more. >> what do we think under the most generous read of this,

andrew weissmann, what would be the single most important answer pence could offer jack smith? >> i think that it is about the conversation. if you're dealing just with the -- his trying to pressure pence, it is -- it's saying what happened in that telephone call where he said that the law is absolutely clear and that his lawyers told him that and that even john eastman admitted that this would lose in the supreme court because that is a piece that is missing. we know that eastman said that. but we don't have that going and being told to the president. so, at least on this piece of pressuring mike pence, i think that would be most important. but to joyce's point, it is really important to remember, as you mentioned, nicolle, that there are all sorts of other things. there is the pressure in doj.

there is the violence on january 6. there is the pressuring of state electors. there is even potentially information about mar-a-lago. and the vice president who is in close communication with donald trump, may have information that related to all of that. so this is one where there could be a goldmine of information. and mike pence has to be a little bit careful, because, you know, of course he's in communication with his staff who have testified. but he can't say something that is too different than what they have said. so the problem of coming up with a fictitious story at this point is that that could lead you into a whole lot of trouble and he has very good counsel who is going to be telling them that. so you're under oath and you need to let the chips fall where they may because if you start coloring and skewing what happened, there are a lot of other tools that jack smith has to show that you are now doing

the former president's bidding. so, you got to just come clean. >> and are they allowed to coordinate testimony. is he allowed to find out what was told to the grand jury? >> yes, he is. so, as joyce and i know from many an investigation, it is totally legal to -- for witnesses and lawyers to talk about what they have said and what their interviews have been. what you're not allowed to do is make up testimony and to tailer your testimony falsely. but it is commonplace where there are groups of people under investigation to have something called a joint defense agreement where lawyers frequently talk about what happened. it is a huge problem when it is used for illicit purposes. it obviously could be a totally appropriate way to defend a case. but it can lead to what i used to refer to as sort of legal obstruction of justice. meaning, that it appears to be

legal, because it is a joint defense agreement. but in fact the witnesses are using it to learn how to tailer her testimony to match each other. >> you said something really intriguing about the classified documents and i want to press you on that. we have to sneak in a quick break. but andrew and mike and joyce are sticking around for the hour. and we'll show you the president calling out the vice president for a lack of courage to do the right thing. much more on this developing story. plus, the surprise white house auns noment late this afternoon that fighter jets have taken down another object over american air space. we'll talk with the ranking member of the house intelligence committee on that. later in the program, what extorting extremism could look like as ron desantis is inspiring a series of red state copycats. all of that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. one dose of ubrelvy works fast it can quickly stop migraine

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by 2:24 p.m., the secret service had moved vice president pence from the senate chamber, to his office across the hall. >> the noise from the rioters became audible. at which point we recognized that maybe they had gotten into the building. >> then president trump tweeted, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution. >> it was clear that it was escalating quickly. so then when that tweet ma mike pence tweet was sent out, i remember us saying that that was the last thing that needed to be

tweeted at that moment. the situation was already bad. and so it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that. >> and now more than two years later, mike pence has been subpoenaed by the special counsel jack smith for testimony and no one is sure whether he will help the prosecution or the offense. it is the quintessential trump story that the tweet is the straw that tweets a camel's back for white house staffers through all of trump's shenanigans and i believe ashli babbitt had been shot and killed by that point. so the violence is clear. the threat is clear. the secret service radio tract is talking about guys swinging from trees with ar weapons. and he believe it is pouring gasoline on the fire. and no one knows whether pence will help the defense or the prosecution. >> i think what we see here and i understand why a lot of people

play be frustrated with this, but are the differences between the way that the congressional investigation work and the way that the justice department investigation worked. the other part of the pence story with the subpoena, is my guess is that it will take a fair amount of time to get mike pence from the grand jury because donald trump is going to go under seal and try to stop it if he hasn't already done that. it will play out and a major issue that trump would try to appeal and would try and slow down. and the courts appear to have allowed these individuals to testify and to not go along with trump's attempts to stop them. but this will not be a fast process. and even at that, we're seeing, as joyce and wiseman were dissecting, the fact that it is not a clear -- it is not as clear as it was going to be in

any of the hearings when we were sort of taking in what the committee had found or if you look at the january 6 report. it has to go through the criminal justice system which up to this point certainly doesn't look like it was built to deal with donald trump in a way that sort of a lot of people think that it should. so, there is going to be a lot of questions like that. about, like, why is this taking so long and what do you mean if pence said this thing that could help trump? isn't it clear as day. because i think one of the problems and frustrations with the entire trump story and such is that the people say hold on, all of this stuff happened out in the open. we all saw it happen. but why have there not been consequences for it. >> andrew weissmann, if you're a prosecutor do you want to ask karen pence why she was running or the secret service why they ran karen and mike pence down the stairs. you want to ask them why he did

that or why he didn't get in the car. just back to the violence piece. it appears from, as mike said, what we could see from our own eyes that mike pence was conducting himself in a way to, one, avoid violence and two, certify joe biden's win. do you want to ask the people that -- i mean, secret service, their job is not just to protect but to move them. do you want to ask the people that moved him why they moved him at that pace? >> well, absolutely. and i mean, there is a -- there is the emotional and visceral part of the trial and that is another reason you need to lock in mike pence. i mean, in that sense, he's sort of an exhibit. he's not just a fact witness. because he is the object of all of this fury, very much instigated by the former president. and so, you want to know whether he on the stand will be saying oh, it was no big deal and the more that you could show just how serious this was, and that

people around him taking it seriously and his family, all of that is really important, emotional evidence that will counteract any attempt to minimize what happened. if i could just say one thing about mike's point about the timing here, because he could be totally right that one sign of optimism that this may -- may not take as long as we think is because other people have gone in the grand jury around mike pence that is his staffers, white house counsel for the former president, there is really good reason to think that the judge that oversees the grand jury, barrel howell and the d.c. circuit have ruled on the issue of executive privilege. and so the idea of this coming up again, they may have ruled on it and the reason we don't know

for sure is that this would be grand jury litigation, which is by definition under seal. but there is reason to think that this is already been ruled on, at least with respect to other people and so that issue would be incredibly similar and the case law is very, very strong in favor of the government in this case, so that donald trump wouldn't have a particularly strong argument to delay things here. >> is that a theory and a process that you know about? or do you see some of the reporting, for example josh gurstein and kyle reported about some secret proceedings that have taken place in that courthouse. is that your read about what that may be about? >> yes, exactly. it is a theory and because it would come up before. but also there has been reporting going so far as to say that this, in fact, has been litigated and pointing out which

way barrel howell, the chief judge in the d.c. trial court ruled as well as the d.c. circuit. and as joyce, who is really -- the group here, she's the appellate lawyer and could tell us much better than i can. the law here is so favorable for the government that it is also not a big stretch to think this -- if it was litigated, the way in which the courts would come out. it is one where it is hard to see this being litigated terribly in a lengthy way. it is hard to see the supreme court being interested in this. unless they were going to overrule this sort of very famous nixon case. which is really directly on point. >> right. i think that is absolutely the case here. we're not looking at -- i don't think lengthy is a relative term. i think we're talking about maybe months, maybe not that long, because the case law is well developed. and privilege, executive privilege is not absolute. there are all kinds of ways to

pierce it under the nixon case for instance, if information is necessary in a criminal investigation. that is enough to defeat the privilege. here we are the spector of a former president personally involved in criminal activity and so we've talked a lot about the crime fraud exception, that could come into play here. and i do think andrew is correct, the reporting suggests that there has been under seal grand jury litigation going on. >> extensive. >> we know that some witnesses have testified. these issues would have come up there. and unless judge howell took the remarkable step in writing her opinion and the circuit agreed that if a case involving mike pence came before them it would be different and they need to look at the law again. i think we could act under the assumption that these issues are all be resolved. >> let me ask you, joyce, the picture that we just showed of mike pence standing in the garage, if you ask mike pence why he stood in the garage and didn't get in the car, what sort of answer could he give that would be helpful to donald

trump? >> it could be all over the ballpark. one thing that mike pence might say is my constitutional obligation was to be there, to certify the vote. that is all that i was thinking about. but i think the range of productive answers, that the government could get, is much broader. you asked a question earlier and said i understand there is interference with a government proceeding. what about fomenting insurrection, and what about a conspiracy. that would require proo of that donald trump was intending to use violence and working toward that goal on january 6. we don't know what mike pence might say. we don't know what might have been said to mike pence by donald trump to try to lure him into this conspiracy to interfere and whether that at some point crosses the line into this notion that if we have to, i guess if it was a mob case we'd say go to the mattresses. here it is engaging the militias. and that is the problem. prosecutors just don't know what

mike pence might say. >> do we assume that they've already presented to a grand jury what mark short believes when he told pence the secret service agent that pence's life will be in danger 24 hours later. >> i think it is a certainty that they would have asked him those questions. we don't know which of the secret service witnesses, potential witnesses might have testified. it is not clear whether their witnesses or considered something else in this investigation. there are a lot of people that you could go to and ask the question what do you think mike pence thought but as a prosecutor, the question i want to ask is, mike pence, what did you think? what did you understand? >> wouldn't the most, in terms of the most powerful fruitful thing for the government in this be, and i'm just making this up, pence saying basically trump said to me i know we lost, i know there is no place for me, but go ahead and do this. you could become president after

me, i'll make you president. it is something that where you have trump admitting that what he's doing is wrong. and that he doesn't really have a legal path. is that the kind of thing that would be the sort of home run thing for the prosecutor? >> you know, i'm horrified that you're suggesting that the man who dangled pardons like party favors would dangle the presidency. but i think it is entirely possible. you know, mike pence is really resistant to testifying under oath. there is probably a reason for that. what did donald trump try to horse trade with him? jack smith wants to find out. >> and andrew weissmann i'll give you the last word and knowing that he lost, buried in the transcripts that the 1/6 committee released at end, that mark milley said that he knew he lost and he would leave a mess regarding iran to the next guy. how important is it to build a body of evidence of people who know that trump knew he lost?

>> that is critical. you know, if you could show that the -- that the former president was inciting and engaging in violence, it doesn't really matter whether you prove whether he won or lost because you can't do that under any circumstances. but on the issue of obstruction, one of the reasons that the january 6 committee spent so much time showing how many people said that the former president knew he had lost, leave aside that you also didn't win any of the 60 cases in court, where he was alleging that. so that is so critical to show his intent that he was obstructing congress no not certifying the vote of his adversary who had won. so this is where mike pence, when we think about him being primarily a witness for the pressure on mike pence to do the former president's bidding, he also could be a witness on all

of these other theories and have evidence about knowing that -- that in fact they lost. and even just having mike pence say i knew that i was no longer going to be the vice president, that i knew i had lost will be a very good fact. that is something that was obvious to him, it is something that will be really good for a jury to hear. so, i think there is just a lot of ways in which he could become an incredibly useful witness. but the bottom line is, that this step of putting him in the grand jury is a really good step on the part of jack smith. it is a necessary thing for a good sort of tenacious and thorough prosecutor to do. >> andrew weissmann, thank you. i feel like if i ever went to law school, i could take one credit from this conversation. when we come back, democrats calling out that vengeance fueled weaponization

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transcripts of their interviews. >> we have the first one and dozens who have come and talked to our office. >> they talked to your office privately in. >> they talked to republican staff, right. >> and they're not transcribed, no notes, no nothing? of the dozen of whistleblowers you have talked to. that came to talk to your staff. >> what do you want me to turn over there? >> did you -- >> their names. >> notes. did anyone take notes? >> i'll be happy to talk with the ranking member on how we handle that information. >> thank you. >> notes? that was jim jordan responding to democratic congressman dan goldman who was trying to basically either get the notes or call jim jordan's bluff during yesterday's hearing for the so-called sub committee on the weaponization of the federal government. and the so-called dozens and dozens of alleged fbi agents, dozen and dozens, not a dozen, but dozens and dozens. who have apparently shared, quote, the truth with republicans and republicans only and so far there are no notes

from dozens of interviews. wow. it was just one of the many heated moments from democrats yesterday. frustrated with what they called the tinfoil hat committee that serves as fodder for fox news audiences. the gop list of grievances does not include what congressman goldman would consider a legitimate priority for committee to look at. the potential possible cover up reported by the "new york times" last month by former attorney bill barr's investigation of the investigators. that at one point turned into an unrelated internal investigation of potential crimes committed by donald trump. joining the table is democratic congressman from new york dan goldman, member of the house select subcommittee on weaponization and the over sight committee and mike and joyce are still here. tell me what you're getting at with jordan. >> well they talk about how they've have dozens of

whistleblower come and talk to them. >> dozens and dozens. >> that is what he said. they wrote a minority report premised on some of the interviews last congress. so, what i was getting at, is if you are having private interviews with whistleblowers, either you have notes from those interviews that you should provide to the minority so we're prepared per the regulations and customs of congress that i had to abide with when i was leading the impeachment investigation. or if you have no notes, how you could write a report on what the whistleblowers say? from memory? of course not. so either way, you must have some record of those interviews and, you know, we're not asking for anything they've asked for before. they ask for it all of the time. we want to get the same information that they have when whistleblowers come forward. and we encourage whistleblowers to come forward. >> of course. >> but we want to understand

what the whistleblower said and we don't want their summary of what whistleblowers said because that is going to be skewed. >> enter "the new york times" reporting and you and ted lieu have written to mr. horowitz and asked him about the letter. what did he say. >> he had not yet received the letter. but it is -- >> it is so interesting in 2023. >> well in fairness to him, we sent it the night before, before his testimony. i think he has received it now. but what is so shocking about that "new york times" article is the degree of politicization of the durham investigation. and it is no surprise because donald trump talked about it nonstop. but, the notion that you would have two career prosecutors resign, including durham's number two, because they objected to the politicization

of this investigation, that you have durham and bill barr go to the inspector general to have the inspector general change his conclusions about the origination of the russia investigation, which he found to be totally legitimate, that you use the department of justice as a political tool for donald trump, to me, that is weaponization of the federal government. and we wanted inspector general horowitz to investigate it and we would like to investigate that as part of this subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government. >> will you call mr. durham and his aide and the other prosecutor who quit. >> we hope to. we absolutely would love to hear from them. i think that is something that we should all understand a little bit better, if you want to have a subcommittee on the weaponization, so-called weaponization, let's talk about using improper purposes. >> do you have any whistleblowers on the democrat side. >> not to my knowledge.

we started the committee last week. part of the trick and i'm learning sadly and the minority, when we doing the impeachment investigation, we were in the majority and we were controlling it, is we don't have any control over it. we get to call one witness at the hearings. but we will be, i think, very intentional about who we call going forward. >> it is not like a trial where each side has -- >> no. >> we have many more questions for you. don't go anywhere. we'll all be right back.

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i love say thissing, we're back with congressman dan goldman and mike schmidt and joyce vance. >> you've been vocal on the george sant os -- what is the current status? there is an ethics investigation into him, what do you see on the ground in washington in regards to what is going to happen? >> well, yesterday, three of the freshman democratic lgbtq members led filing of a resolution to expel him. and congressman richie torres and i who have been doing a lot of work trying to expose and bring attention to the pattern of deceit and fraud that george santos is, join them and what we ultimately have decided, you

know, in conjunction with leadership, is george santos should not be in congress. and we can no longer wait for more and more and more horrific fraudulent activity to occur before congress needs to make a decision about whether or not he should be there. he has no incentive to resign. because it is a potential chip in a plea bargain if he's charged and he's probably making more money lawfully than he's ever made before so why would he resign and clearly leadership has not pressured him to resign. perhaps because they knew about his lies and his fraud during the campaign and kevin mccarthy and elise stefanik, so at this point we want an up or down vote. make every single member of congress declare whether they think george santos is fit to be a congressman and whether he brings the proper integrity and reputation to congress. >> do you have the ability and the minority to get that on the

floor for a vote? >> my understanding is that it is that it will be a privilege motion which means it does get a vote of some sort. it may not give a direct vote but try to table the vote which is effectively the same vote. >> joyce, you get a quick last word. >> so you make the point that staying in office is a good chip, right, for santos. if there is a prosecution down the road. do you expect one? i mean you've done a lot of fraud cases in your life as a prosecutor. you wear a different hat now. but do you think ultimately he's expelled from congress because there is a prosecution? >> well, i don't know. i don't want to jump out there. i will say having looked at his financials, having filing that ethics complaint based on his campaign finances, there are glaring red signals about what he has done, even his own statements have contradicted his declarations filed under penalty of perjury.

so we know that he lies. whether that is a crime or not is something that the department of justice will have to look back. but we should not be talking about george santos. he does not belong in congress and it is worse for the republican party because he is one of them and they won't force him to resign. but it brings disrepute to the entire institution and that is not what the american people want. >> just ask mitt romney. called him a sick puppy. thank you so much for being here for the whole hour. quick break for us. up next, the extreme far right agenda running through some state houses and what it being done to make sure they're not replicated in others. don't go anywhere. help make trading feel effortless and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market with powerful, easy-to-use tools power e*trade makes complex trading easier react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder

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free speech is about the government limiting speech around the -- about the public. my governor is going that right now. i have a venue in my district that he's revoking the liquor license because they had a drag show.

we have teacher that's are not able to teach because they disagree with ron desantis and his view of the world. that is limiting free speech. >> hi, again, everybody. it is 5:00 in new york. maxwell frost just this week calling out his state's governor for taking drastic measures toin fringe on the rights of people he simply doesn't agree with. a scary consequence of ron desantis's so-called anti-woke agenda. but what is more alarming is that ron desantis is not confining himself or his ambitions within the state of florida. and its borders. he's making decision that would bring extremist policies to states all across the country. take his pressure campaign against the college board and how the curriculum of how an a.p. course was striped down after members of desantis administration and the college board. today florida passed a bill that would enable the governor to

relocate migrants from any state in the country. not just florida. which means this bill would make desantis's stunt back in september, remember when he flew almost 50 migrants from texas to martha's vineyard. and this week he called on the u.s. supreme court to revisit a 1964 ruling that said a higher bar for defamation lawsuits involving public figures. some alarming new reporting in "the washington post" finds that desantis's actions have motivated republican officials in states like wyoming and indiana and nebraska to put forward copycat bills, the post reports this, gay rights activists believe desantis helped inspire dozens of new state proposals that seek to regulate transgender health care, drag show performances or public accommodations for transgender americans. so far in 2023 the american

civil liberties union have identified state legislatures that it considered anti-lgbtq bills. already equally the total number of such bills in 2022. meanwhile, pen america, freedom of expression advocacy group, has so far identified 81 proposals that it believes are attempts to stifle creativity and academic freedom in education. about 20 of those proposals appear to be nearly a carbon copy of law enacted last year in florida that bans lgbtq topics from elementary school classrooms. that is according to jeremy young, senior manager of free expression and education at pan america. while florida's governor may be chief among the republican officials exporting his views to the rest of the country, he's not alone. the texas judge in the next few weeks could roll back the fda's authorization of an abortion pill which in do soing would result in a nationwide ban.

on a method that accounts for most abortions in the united states. a study found that 40 million more women would lose access to abortion health care if this approval is revoked. the exporting of far-right extremist views to the rest of the country is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite friends. host of msnbc politics nation and the president of the national action network rev al sharpton is here. and also joining us, writer for the bulwark and msnbc contributor, tim miller is back. and the dean of howard university law school danielle is back with us. i start with you. it has at its core this cynical bet that americans could be made to hate the other, especially when the other is a minority or much maligned community. it is a sick bet. >> absolutely. it is, nicolle. i think one of the things that

is happened is ron desantis who has made himself the center -- of attention, which is distracting from the fact that pla is becoming a laboratory for regressive policy. on many fronts. including transgender health care, the a.p. african american studies course and in so many ways and i think what it is demonstrating is this larger national trend of states having their government assert power over individuals and over institutions and in a way that we traditionally think of as overreaching and very disturbing. so for example, with the african american a.p. course, that is something that would be left to academic freedom to curriculum, so when the college board came up with that curriculum, that would be the curriculum and then instead we see the government reaching into our class rooms and in a way that should really alarm people. and what they're counting on is that we'll get so focused on

florida and ron desantis, that we will miss the fact that this is happening around the country now. >> let me show you, tim miller, what california's governor, gavin newsom had to say about this. >> what you're seeing across the spectrum is vulnerable minorities being targeted by these with a zest for zem onization using this for political parts. this anti-wokeism is just racism in disguise. it is the well fare queen from reagan. it is nixon's, all of the southesh strategy. nothing new here. it is the wuth thing that has in common in every respect, women, minorities, being attacked and demonized and used under this broad trope of wokeism. and it sickens me. >> listening to him, it strikes me that part of the conversation should not fall to african americans or women or migrants and asylum-seekers to push back. it should fall to all americans

to push back against what danielle just accurately described as regressive policies and politics, regressive policies to serve political ambition. >> for sure. and unfortunately it is going to fall on people maybe sometimes in red states like to make these fights and to say things have gone too far. i saw this in kansas. it is a red state and said the abortion referendum went too far. some of the fiscal policies of the last governor went too far so they have a democratic governor there now and hopefully there will be some of that attacking back in some of the suits. because what we're see right now, as a former republican, i always liked this notion of federalism, the laboratories of democracy, right, and there is where you could try to reform in florida or in colorado and if it works on school issues or energy or whatever it is, maybe other states would pick it up and if it didn't work, then it would go the way of the dodo.

but what we're experiencing now is something that is pretty unique, at least in the post kind of civil rights era. which is where people's rights are going to be extremely different depending on what state you live in. right. and that, this notion that in wyoming or in florida, you know, you can't send your kid to school, if you send your kid to a school, they might not be able to acknowledge that gay or trans fames exist there. that if you're a drag queen, you might not be able to perform in certain states. you could only perform in other states. that is a throwback to the 1960s, right. this is obviously also true of other minority groups and of migrants too. so i think that is really what is different here as we're seeing these state-based fights that desantis is at the tip of the spear of. where it is not about oh, we're trying this reform or that reform differently, it is about if you come to our state, you're

banned from expressing constitutional rights and it will take people in red states and in purple states to push back because that is just the state of affairs right now. >> you know, rev -- go ahead, danielle, did you want to say something? i thought i cut you off. rev, let me bring you in on this. the gift of sarah huckabee standers to the state of union, it is like the curtain coming down and the wizard of oz is naked without the culture wars. that is all they got. there are no plans to bring economic prosperity to every corner of the country. there are no plans to bring broadband to every town in rural area of the country. there are no plans to protect the democracies the world over because that is the best way to secure these united states. all they got is their anti-wokeism jihad. that is it. >> i think that huckabee-sanders

rebuttal shows there is no program other than to go back into the demonizing of people that tried to move this country forward. and what they're doing is a state's rights movement. let's remember, the whole battle for civil rights in the '60s was to get federal law to protect blacks and others from states rights and that is why this wednesday we're marching on desantis in tallahassee and if we have to go state by state to protect african american history on protect lgbtq rights an the rights of women, once you go back into a state's rights state apparatus, then we're not talking about 1960, we're talking about 1860. that is when the confederates were about in the civil war. and for desantis to be able to try and polish this up and have

manicured confederate behavior, saying in this state you won't learn about black history or gays and in this state we're going into a model that we thought we resolved in the civil war and we need to call it what it is. >> danielle, i wonder sometimes if this works absent the right-wing propaganda apparatuses, plural, without hours and hours and hours of cable tv and podcasts and i think they go deeper and deeper down the information eco-system depicting what account huckabee sanders shared with millions of americans, this dissolutional view of the country. she painted a picture of woke mobs as they were walking into every city in america to get you. does someone like desantis thrive without that disinformation apparatus?

>> there is no way that these policies could thrive without disinformation. so for example, the entire labelling of this stop woke project is anti-critical race theory is a lie. critical race theory has not been taught in k through 12. this is a legal theory that is taught almost exclusively in law schools. but yet by pushing this lie over and over again, that something called critical race theory, that makes people feel scared, is being taught in k through 12 has allowed that thinking to spread to 13 states that have now adapted similar legislation to the stop woke theory and that is the one of the reasons that i say we can't adopt that same language. we can't adopt that same nomenclature. we have to call it for what it is. which is censorship and book banning. when you see teachers so scared that they will pull library

books off the shelf because they are afraid of losing their jobs, or ending up being reported to a hotline, that is the same as mccarthyism. we really have to confront these ideas for what they are and i think the other important thing to realize is that this is an attack on public education. the same as the transgender health bills are an attack on health care for transgender people across the board, this is really a attack on public education. 50% of students in florida in the public schools are black and -- and latin x. this means they are trying to prevent students from knowing their own history. and it is really important that we don't take up the language that they've been using and instead call it for what it is. which is really censorship and book banning. >> it is censorship, it is book banning and it is governing by intimidation and fear. let me show some polling about lgbtq parents and in response to

florida's don't say gayla. 56% considered moving out of florida. 23% said they were scared of being harassed or bothered by neighbors because of their sexual orientation or expression. 21% said they were less out in their neighborhood workplace or community. 17% said they have actively taken steps to move or plan to move out of florida. the rhetoric that turns into state legislation that we're an owe the air with us today because it is being exploited across the country, has at its core dehumanization of your next door name and your teacher and dehumanization from anyone different around your table at night. dehumanization is the key that unlocked everything they're seeking to do. how do you rewire an entire political party that is

predicated on having you go along with dehumanization? >> yeah, nicolle, two thoughts on that. one on the politicals of this, i do -- you've hit it and dehumanization politics is not knew. scapegoating and targeting people is not new. putting forth legislation that is going to stick through the courts but get you on to fox, it is not new or challenging. sometimes i worry that we give desantis too much power here. he's not doing anything differently than any other demagogue would do or that greg abbott would do if he has the possibility and there are a number of people that have advancing these types of things and frankly some of the don't say gay bills are even worse than the florida one because it got the most media attention. and so media attention brings scrutiny. and so, you know, i think that your point about how this is a party line thing right now

cannot be lost. it is not anything particularly special that is happening right there in florida. it is just that he's at the tip of the spear and because he's it looks like he's challenging trump he's getting the most attention. on the the policy part of it, it is dehumanizing and it is bringing out -- it is this throw back to targeting teachers and kids because you want people to be scare and feel like they need to be in the closet. this is the same stuff from the harvey milk days. it is crazy that it is coming back. if you look at the wyoming bill, it said that sexual orientation can't be mention in k to 3. if someone is going to have a kindergartener next year, how does that work? she's not allow to mention her parents when she goes into kindergarten. they have questions and you go to pick up at school. why does sally have two moms picking her up at school.

it is impossible not to answer kindergarten basic questions an it is trying to intimidate teachers and families and force them back into the closet and then you are perceived as strong by doing that. right. and that is going to be the strong man tactic we're seeing from the republicans in these states. and it is sick. >> rev, tim made the good point that it is a political loser. and i know that is the case with the extreme abortion bans as well. 93% of all americans oppose a bab that eliminated an exception for the life of the mother which is where the red states are heading. 83% or 85% of all americans oppose the bans that eliminate the exceptions for rape an incest. yet that is where the republican party is heading. and so i get that the politics may in the end benefit democrats and in a broader coalition of democrats, independents and republicans who say no thank

you. but i worry about all of the people's lives, all of the kindergartners who are on back to school night feel like they can't introduce their two moms to the other kids in the class. i worry about the human toll today. >> and that is why there has to be mobilization and questioning around the country. because in the interim, before you get to the polls and beat them politically, you cannot let them change the culture, where you have young kids and a lgbtq family, all black kids who no longer could learn their history, or latino kids who could be seeing people of their race and they're nationality put on a plane and just thrown to a democratic state like they're nothing. you can't have them grow up with that sense of that they are other. it is the ultimate white male supremacy. they are not us. you never heard them say we can't have confederate statutes

because it would hurt people's feelings but learning about blacks may upset somebody or learning about gays may upset somebody. or learning about latinos upset somebody. but we're superior and if you let kids begin to grow up like that, we're going back to an america we thought not to have. and it is not to feel other, those of us that are black or gay or women or whatever, it is to make them feel superior and it is the ultimate supremacy that they're after even more than they're after elections. >> no one is going anywhere. ahead for us, we're going to return to the roll ron desantis has made in dismantling that african american studies courses that reparations and the black lives matter movement itself is no longer part of the curriculum. and again, it won't just effect students in the state of florida. but because of his actions and

administration's actions, it will effect the entire country. and plus joe biden ordered the military to shoot down a second high altitude object over alaska. we'll have a chance to ask congressman jim himes what he knows about that when he joins us at table. and where things stand in fulton county, georgia, for fannie willis said charging decisions in her investigation of the disgraced ex president's results there were imminent. "deadline: white house" returns after a quick break. we won't go anywhere. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪

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we've been talk about how red state officials led by rob desantis has tried to push beyond their home state borders. no story today illustrate this is better than the one we've been covering for weeks. the college board's new a.p. class on african american studies. there was brand-new reporting from "the new york times" this week that highlights how the college board striped down its curriculum for its new a.p. african american studies course. after communicating in a meeting with ron desantis's administration, after the desantis administration raised concerns about material they found objectionable. and "the new york times" reporting how deechb deep it goes. in a november 16th meeting between the department of education and the college board shows the state claimed that the a.p. african american studies course violated regulations requiring that instruction of

required topics must be factual and objective and may not suppress or distort significant historical events. the college board acknowledged that the course would undergo revisions while pushing back to remove concepts like systemic marginalization and which the college saw as integral to the class. by the time the final framework was released on february 1st, the terms have been removed. joining our conversation is correspondent dana goldstein. his byline broke yesterday. the rev al sharpton is with us. and take us through what the reporting said? >> yeah, so what was really stunning about this contact between the desantis administration and college board is that it took place over the course of a full year. there were multiple emails, phone calls, meetings, to

discuss the specific concepts in the course that state of florida objected to. chief among those were mentioned of reparations, of black lives matter, of intersectionality which is the idea that we're all shaped by our intersecting identities like i'm a white women but i'm also jewish and feel and heterosexual and that is reshaped how we think about ourselves in our world. and these desantis officials were bringing this to the college board and they were engaged in a back and forth over the course of many months. >> dana, why -- why does the college board cave completely to 100% of what we believe the desantis administration wants removed? >> right now, we don't have a lot of insight into their thinking. and we haven't been able to speak with them over the phone or do an interview with them since these documents emerged,

unfortunately we are still hoping to get more insight into their internal thinking. but we know there was a lot of pressure on them. they wanted to be able to have this class roll out in the nation's third largest state for very good reasons. they wanted kids in florida to access some of the great material that is in the class and that remains in the class even with the revisions. but at the same time, they didn't want teachers to feel scared that they would lose their jobs if they taught concepts that were banned by state of florida. a lot of scholars within the discipline of african american studies wished that the college board had taken this opportunity to stand up against ron desantis. to say to him, no, we're taking a stance for what we believe is core to this discipline, to this class and we're not going to edit it to -- to fit with these laws that you've passed. but that does not appear to be what happened here. >> i was going to ask, i mean is

there any evidence that the college board weighed as heavily the view ofs any african american experts as they did ron desantis? >> they were serge in close touch with scholars of black studies throughout the process of creating this curriculum. and you know, one of things that we know is that many of the scholars were really, really concerned about the potential for the desantis administration to apply pressure on the colonel board. so the college board had pressure from several directions. pressure from academics and student advocates that didn't want to see the class watered down and they also have this competing pressure from the republican governors and the right-wing curriculum activists. >> danielle, let me bring you on in this. what questions do you have? i mean, it is clear that this is a developing story, reporting yesterday moved us very far

along from what we previously knew about contacts between the desantis administration and the college board. but as dana is saying, we still don't understand what went on. on this program, yesterday, it called for people to be fired who caved completely. what do you want to know next? what are your questions? >> you know, i think one of my central questions is we know that this course had been under development since 2007. there were a whole group of professors who were brought in, i think almost 30 professors who really studied and looked carefully, these are all experts in african american studies, i think my main question is has college board treated any other a.p. course in the way that they are treating this course. so we know there are courses in european history, there are courses in world history, there are courses in spanish culture and japanese culture, and many other studies, global history, social sciences, et cetera, has african american studies been

singled out and that is one of the central questions that has to be answered. because really this is about turning curriculum decisions, decisions that should be made by experts in the best interest of students into a political football. and into a political football that really targets, targets african americans and so that is really the question that i have. is, is there any precedent for this, is there any other course that has been treated as a political football at the expense of curriculum that is studied by experts in the area. >> dana, i know this is a developing story but do you have happen to know the answer to that or in any reporting on that? >> i don't think that the college board has ever faced an onslaught like exactly this one. in the moment, when they were really going full forward on the class, that was in 2020. after the killing of george floyd, the murder of george

floyd. and what started as a moment of great progressive idealism with people on the streets protesting that event, was swept up in what became the conservative backlash to the black lives matter movement. and i think that is one of things that we're looking at. my colleagues and i are totally immersed in this issue. you could expect more stories in the next few days because we're going to put together a timeline of what happened here and we're going to be speaking to people who were involved in every aspect of putting this course together and we are going to have a lot more to say on exactly what happened over the course of self years that this class came into existence. >> al sharpton, without investigative journalism and without activism, what they are doing, it goes back to what tim was talking about, describing them as strongmen. that is the model. what are your thoughts on this story? >> it is absolutely the model. and let's not forget that

florida is where trayvon martin happened and they saw a man who pretented to be a security guard kill a young teenager who had some skittles and iced tea and we've had incidents since then. so desantis is playing to a base that will respond to that. i don't think it will play to a national base politically. but the damage done in between, i mean, the language they use and the read dana' story, the language about being objective and that you don't want anyone teaching something that is not totally objective, who decides objectivity? if you are dealing with people that have no problem with bigotry, with xenophobia or homophobia, are we dealing with what they objective or what in fact is real and why is all of

the other histories and the other lessons that are taught, why is that so objective? why does that pass the muster, but when it comes to blacks or to women or to gays or latinos, all of a sudden we have to take out this magnifying glass. it is not a magnifying glass. it is a bias that gave us stand your ground that is now trying to give a notion of white supremacy in terms of how history is going to be taught and they dictate it to this panel and it is an outrage. >> the reverend al sharpton and tim miller and dana goldstein, keep your schedule clear between 4:00 and 6:00. when can he come back joe biden ordering the military to shoot down a second high altitude object. this time it happened over alaska. we're very lucky to get the chance to talk to congressman jim himes. he's the ranking member of the

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i could confirm that the department of defense was tracking a high-altitude object over alaska air space in the last 24 hours. it is flying at an altitude of 40,000 feet and posed a reasonable threat to the safety of civilian flight. out of an abundance of caution and the recommendation of the

pentagon, president biden orders the military to down the object and they did and it came inside our territorial waters and those waters right now are frozen. but inside territorial air space and over territorial waters. fighter aircraft assigned to u.s. northern command took down the object within last hour. >> there that was john kirby on the news that broke this afternoon that a second high-altitude object has now been shot down over u.s. territory. as you heard him say earlier today. kirby said that the object was the size of a small car. but it is not clear where it came from or what its capabilities are. the news of today's shootdown comes days after a chinese spy balloon was taken down after it flew off the coast of south carolina. chinese officials are continued to maintain that it was a weather balloon. but today u.s. officials confirmed it contained antennas and other equipment used for intelligence-gathering purposes. let's bring into our coverage

congressman jim himes of connecticut, the newly minted ranking member of the house intelligence committee. do you know anything of what were shot down or why two things were shot down in such a short span. >> i don't know a lot. my understanding is there were some briefing and we're largely gone, the house and senate were out today. i could offer some formed speculation. this is was -- was unlikely to be a threat of any kind even of intelligence gathering, we would have heard more. it was unmanned if it had been manned they would have said different things at the pentagon. and my best guess is that for the first time, because of the emergence of this balloon, a lot of eyes are trained -- >> the first one, the chinese one. >> the first one. so i think it is probably a case of now we're looking really hard and you may remember when we did the big hearings around what people call ufo's what we called

unidentified aerial phenomenon, there is an immense amount of junk, there is weather balloons and private companies that put things up to try to provide internet service so my guess is that it was something like that and they said what we've gone through the for the week, we better just take that down. >> so the language was they determined and advised the president of the united states that it was a quote threat to civilians. what do you think that means? >> well the threat was to civilian aircraft in other civilian aviation. >> flights? >> unlike the chinese balloon was in the 50,000 to 60,000 foot area which is way above commercial flights. this was at 40,000 feet and we get on planes and you heard, ladies and gentlemen, we've reached our cruising altitude of 30,000 feet. so they advised it was a threat to civilian aviation. my guess is that why it came down. we'll find out more. but i suspect there is a lot less than meets the eye here.

>> from your perch on the intelligence committee and someone who thinks about these things and worked on these things for a long time, is it that china is becoming more brazen or is it that we're catching them in the act of what they do all of the time? on the first -- >> so when the story is told we need to figure out exactly who authorized what on this chinese balloon that was shot down over south carolina. we still don't know who knew what. it is still possible, you know, that this was a couple of more midlevel officers, it is just unclear. so if you told me for sure, and i have not been told this, that the leader of china, mandated that incursion, i would say, woe, that is bad. it was brazen. you shouldn't mess around with equipment near the continental united states. and what is going on here is the chinese are more adept than they ever have been. national security call them near

competitors to the united states. their more technologically adept and they're flexing their muscles. 30 years ago you didn't worry about the aggressive activity in the taiwan straits so more adept and they're flexing their muscles. >> is spy balloon spying a thing? do we do it? >> well, i can't be too detailed on this stuff. but if you look at a base in afghanistan or iraq, you would see tethered not up at 50,000 feet but a balloon tethered. so the idea of putting a whole bunch of sensors on a balloon, it is not a new idea. it is years old, so hear is the thing. there is a bunch of reasons why you might want a balloon and we don't have a lot of sense of what the chinese intention was but balloons could dwell over one spot. their very cheap, satellites are expensive. you lose one and you've lost an awful lot of wealth there.

balloons are very clean. and you know, it is engineering if you're closer, you could see and hear things that you can't hear and see when your further away. >> and when you're pinging it off somewhere far away. let me ask you about the intelligence committee for the duration of trump's presidency, the intel committee became a joke. devin nunes was on it and some of the most brazen trump allies. what is it like now? >> much better. much, much better. >> it can't get worse. >> depending on who you talk to, people would have different explanations for how it got so bad. i sift the intelligence community was worried about sharing information which is a catastrophe, the senate intelligence committee which wasn't as risen, they looked down their nose at us. the chairman is very solid. we've worked together. and he's focused on the national security of the united states. rather than the political stuff that we sadly saw so much a part of all of the ukraine investigation and impeachment.

so i think the new chairman is really dedicated as am i as the ranking democratic member to make sure that we squeeze out the partisanship and the politics from that committee because it is too important to have that. >> and mccarthy put him there and does that he wants to squeeze out the power brokers in his own caucus. >> i want to try to climb inside of the speaker's head. but if you look at the republicans that the speaker appointed to the committee and he actually came in and addressed the committee in the first meeting which was a quite a gesture and he made it very clear that the people he appointed and his intentions are that this committee going back to being about national security. >> i guess that is a good sign, right. we started last hour with reporting from the weaponization subcommittee run by jim jordan. >> whole other universe. >> do you feel like that is the extreme of one end of the spectrum and you sit on the opposite? >> my take on this is that the speaker has given his more flammable members a playground, a sandbox and that he has

reserved other committees like the intelligence for those who are a little bit less about creating a reality show on capitol hill. >> so the intelligence committee going back to being about intelligence. i think that is a headline. thank you for being here jim himes. and ahead for us, new reporting from atlanta about the possibility of an indictment of the twice impeached dress graced ex president for his trying to overtush the state of georgia in 2020. what would that look like? we'll tell you after a quick break. eak. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.

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for last few weeks, we've been anxiously awaiting any news out of the state of georgia. that is because fulton county district attorney fannie willis handed that there could be an imminent decision on whether she would indict the twice impeached ex president following a grand jury investigation into whether he and his allies meddled in georgia's 2020 elections. and while we all continue to wait, our friend greg blewstein of the atlanta journal constitution has written about the impact an indictment in this case would have. georgia is used to outsized political attention but the possibility of criminal charges against donald trump would put the state at the center of something unprecedented in american history. the former president making a comeback bid while under indictment. let's bring in the reporter on that story, msnbc contributor greg bleustein.

take us through it. >> you throw in the words "unchartered territory" and "unprecedented" a lot. but this really would be unprecedented. a president who is facing criminal indictment while trying to wage a comeback bid. not only is it going to be unprecedented for former president trump if he faces charges, but it will put his rivals in the spotlight. do they try to use this against him as a vulnerability or side step it because we know that the former president has called this a witch hunt, and he could rally support around him. >> what about the logistical parts of this? do you have any reporting that suggests that bonnie willis' office is in the state of florida if they decided to indict him? >> not yet. we talked to officials and attorneys and all sorts of folks involved, and they seem to be in a holding pattern. i know she said a few weeks ago that her decisions would be imminent. now we're waiting for what that word "imminent" means.

i guess to her it means a few more weeks. folks here in atlanta are on pins and needles, as well as the rest of the nation, to see what decision she decides to take. >> what is the feeling in the state? is it one of anxiousness or is she known and the fact that she would proceed and follow the facts to their natural conclusion accepted? what is the sense in the state? >> look, she's very well regarded, but there's also a political process here, too. republicans by and large think this is a political persecution. and she has her own political calculations to assess. she's running for another term in a year. and state lawmakers are considering legislation to make it easier for georgia voters to recall prosecutors. it's not necessarily aimed at her, there are results of prosecutors around the state who officials feel like they've been

derelict in their duties. but it could be used as a cudgel against her. so there's a lot of pressure on the d.a. locally and nationally. >> two of her key witnesses were life-long republicans, governor kemp and secretary of state brad rathlisberger. >> we're not sure wsay, but bot publicly in general about their interactions with donald trump. ovent obviously, the secretary of state was on the other end of that phone call and had to draw the line. brian kemp was also on the receiving end of a phone call with donald trump after the election, and he also refused donald trump's efforts to -- for him to call a special session to overturn the election results. >> we will continue to call on you as we learn what the definition of "imminent" is.

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>> "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. happy friday. >> thanks. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. tonight, we're tracking this investigative news that rocked trmp world when it broke last night. it was in this hour and across every major network on cable news channel, you heard the bomb go off. mike pence subpoenaed by the special counsel that is driving headlines today as the legal world makes sense of this escalation of what has largely been a -- right now, we're going