hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. with subpoenas out for everything and everyone from a former vice president to an empty folder, and a wave of brand-new reporting, we're

getting some of our biggest clues yet about the directions special counsel jack smith is taking the politically fraught and complex and unprecedented investigations of an ex president by the justice department. there are major developments in both the january 6 investigation and the probe into the classified documents. we'll get to that in a minute. but we begin with what we know about the sprawling criminal probe into the capitol insurrection and the coup plotted by the ex president and his allies and including those in the administration and in congress. as the "new york times" reports, jack smith steps us the pace, sorting through a mountain of evidence from the january 6 committee and looking to interview witnesses that did not speak to the congressional panel. from that times report, quote, did former president trump consume detailed information about foreign countries wild in office? how extensively did he seek information about whether voting

machines had been tampered with and did he indicate he knew he was leaving when the term ended. those are among the questions that the justice accident investigators have been directing at witnesses as jack smith takes control of the federal investigations into trump's efforts to reverse his 2020 election loss and his handling of classified documents found in his possession after he left office. prosecutors are also dealing with what remains a steady drip of new evidence and reporting more than two years after the attack on the u.s. capitol. a new focus for the doj, a outside firm commissioned by the trump case to find evidence of election fraud. that firm, just like doj, rudy giuliani and 60 plus court cases challenging the results, came up with nothing. nada. washington post was the first to report from the berkeley research group adds that the firm told trump himself, they found no basis for claims that

the election was stolen. adding heft to the now growing pile of evidence in the public purview that seems to prove that trump knew he lost and perpetrated a fraud on the american people. from that washington post report, senior officials briefed trump and chief of staff mark meadows and others on the findings in a december 2020 conference call. meadows shows skepticism of the findings. and continued to main thane that trump won. trump continued to say he won the election. the group contentious of the knowledge of the meeting said. and this is where we begin with our favorite reporters and friends. glenn thrush is here, he shows a byline from the weekend that we read from. and joining us pete struck is back and barbara mccade is back say former u.s. attorney and now

a law professor at the university of michigan and an msnbc contributor and fresh off her huge super bowl win of her beloved chiefs, we'll get to football in a minute, former senator and msnbc contributor claire mccaskill. take us through what your friends are reporting. >> jack smith has been on the job since around christmas when we got back from the hague with his leg on the mend. he has an office somewhere across washington from the justice department. and he's really reconstituted the public integrity division of the justice department. which he ran from 2010 to 2015. he's hired three of his top deputies. but our sources are telling us that what he's really doing is he's focusing on stream lining and accelerating the january 6 investigation. which a lot of people inside of the department felt had become really a bit too sprawling.

and if you look at the evidence from the subpoenas and really the biggest piece of evidence is playing hardball with former vice president pence, he seems to be pushing towards a result, we are told he hopes by the summer, to keep this from going too deeply into the 2024 political season. i think a lot of people are skeptical that he could move that quickly but there is definitely a sense of urgency that hadn't been there in the past. >> it is really a break through piece of reporting and looking at what is happening. i want to ask you about the questions. because you were reporting some of the questions. what is the significance of asking people if he knew he was leaving? >> well, what you're trying to do in any of the cases is establish the target's state of mind and through the state of mind to establish intent. intent is the key to any meaningful prosecution.

and establishing without a shadow of a doubt what that intent was, if he took his actions knowing that he had, in fact, lost the election and was pursuing a strategy of attempting to overturn what he knew and had a reasonable evidence to assume was an established result, then that opens up an entirely different set of charges and gives backing and res onnence to charges such as obstructing a -- obstructing a government process. and there is actually a fair amount of overlap with regard to the documents investigation as well. where the critical question is to establish intent, we seem to have one witness, if the public reporting bears this out, one witness down in florida who seems to understood that the president was moving this material around with some level of foreknowledge. the question in both cases, the january 6 leg of the investigation and the documents

leg of the investigation, is can smith and his prosecutors establish that trump knew what he was doing and that he had the intent to break the law. so that is what this is all about. >> so, glenn, we read your reporting carefully and what you just underscored come through. and we found this just per using the evidence in the public purview presented by the january 6 select committee. let me play that. >> i was in the oval office and at some point in the conversation the lead data person was brought on and i remember he delivered to the president pretty blunt terms that he was going to lose. >> i told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public were [ bleep ]. that the claims of fraud were [ bleep ].

and you know, he was indignant about that. and i reiterated that they wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. >> i said something to the effect of sir we've done dozens of investigations and hundreds of interviews, major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. we looked at georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada. we're doing our job. much of the info you're getting is false. >> so i imagine, glenn, that is half of it. and if you look through the january 6 transcripts he said something to chairman mark milley, when we're gone the next guy could deal with it. i think it was in reference to iran. but tell me if any folks have been come to present that to the grand jury or is that not known yet. >> i don't think it is known precisely how they frame that. but, look, nicolle, there is a

lot of stuff in the public domain and i think a lot of your viewers and our readers are like, they make the fundamental point that you made. there is a lot of public -- a lot of public statements, some out of the president's own mouth that seem to indicate the points being explored in the grand jury. and i'll throw another element at it. we're hearing that the grand jury investigation out of georgia is like some of this material is likely to be pead public. which could also, not to complicate matters even more, have an impact on what the justice department is looking at. i think one of the things that -- one of the things that slowed the initial investigation by the justice department, before smith came on, was a bit of a back room dispute between the january 6 committee and doj. doj had wanted the transcripts from these interviews to be sent over in realtime as early as last summer. and they only discovered this in

a latter part of december. so they're going through thousands and thousands of pages of testimony to pars it for any potential new leads and that then becomes the seed for new people that they're going to likely subpoena or reach out to. >> pete, that is a incredible kern el of detail and understanding but it doesn't explain why they're looking through congressional investigations at all. why weren't they investigating this themselves. >> i think there is a lot going on. there was some question when doj started the investigation, we're now 900, maybe over a thousand were close to it, people who were charged who went in on the ground. the early indications of the investigation by doj was that they were trying to build it from the bottom up. i think, a lot of us were looking saying hey there is some question why you aren't looking sooner at the people higher up

in the chain. but there is every bit of evidence that they are doing that right now. so keep in mind, you have to deal with nearly a thousand perpetrators, people who have been charged who are on the ground. but one, you have to take care of those people and, two, the nature of an investigation is you want to build from the bottom up. when you get to the level of someone like mark meadows or trump certainly, you need almost always someone on the inside who will tell you what those conversations were and what the state of mind was and people aren't going to do that voluntarily. the way you goodet them to tell you that is by confronting them with their own criminal charges. trying to get them to flip. when you can't get them to flip with people below them, so there is a natural flow to go from the bottom up. now, as an investigator, i would have been frustrated with congress for asking for the transcripts and needing to wait months and months to see what is in there. keep in mind, that may not

impact just trump but it may have direct relevance with the proud boys and oath keepers and others. >> barbara mcquade, let me ask you about this -- it sounds like this is now a more focused -- i know we've used the world sprawling for a long time. maybe we should use the word intensifying. glenn, wave your arms if i've got that wrong. i could see you over here. and no arm waving. so an intensifying probe into january 6. and we have this washington post reporting that i quoted from. what seems to be going on, what seems to be available to jack smith if he wants it, is information that could confirm that inside advisers, people like barr and donahue and including this ninja or whatever they were called -- the kind of companies that the trump campaign would commission to go

find/manufacture fraud. they too came up empty handed. what is the significance of proving that all of trump's inputs, everybody he sought, either confirmation biased from or information from or peddling his theories to, said no, sir, there is nothing there. you lost. >> i think the evidence becomes so overwhelming that no reasonable juror could find that he was unaware that he lost this election. and it seems like that is one important aspect they're trying to button down. the more people you could get who could say, he was told he lost, he knew he lost, and especially this reporting about this berkeley research group that did their independent investigation of all of the leads, they came back and said very haven't been able to substantiate any claims. they're all false. at some point, i think that no matter how much donald trump said i have no idea, i thought i won at some point that does not ring true. jurors get the ostrich

instruction, we can't read another person's mind and a person may say i have no idea fact x was true but you can't turn a blind eye to x if it is staring you in the face. you can't put your head in the sand and avoid it. it comes to mind the line from casablanca, that i'm shock to learn that glambling is going on because he's using willful blindness. at some point a jury will believe that despite that he had no idea that the election lies were false, even if the evidence is so overwhelming that a jury could believe that he did know. >> and claire, it sort of goes back to its genius of the public presentation done by the congressional committee. where i think on one of those public hearings, to ivanka trump. did you agree with bill barr? i said it was all b.s. he's surrounded by people who not only know the truth, but told him the truth and there

were more than a handful that know that he knows the truth. there is mark milley, mark meadows per the story of cassidy hutchinson where he said i don't want anyone to know we lost. which i can't begin to unpack. there are all of these indications not only that he was told by everybody, but that he understood he lost and he was leaving. >> i think there is plenty of evidence that is available now and that would be available with the tools that the federal government has to compel testimony that donald trump knew what he was doing, that he committing a fraud. he knew he was committing a fraud but he thought he would get away with it. the question i want answered, i get it that there was a fight going on between the j6 committee and doj about the availability of transcripts but they knew pence would never respond to a congressional subpoena and mark meadows would never response to a

congressional subpoena. why didn't they appoint jack smith two years ago? why did they wait until over two years after the fact or almost two years after the fact to appoint a special counsel? i need somebody to explain that to us. i need somebody to tell us why -- what happened? were they just waiting and doing nothing? and i get it they have a lot of people to prosecute. but there is prosecutors offices that prosecute tens upon thousands of felonies a year. and yes, some of them were complicated and some you need digital evidence but a lot of them are as plain as the nose on your face, that video that we watched. so to believe that gummed up to doj to the point they couldn't make a decision to appoint jack smith sooner, i don't get and i will never get unless merrick garland finally explains it to you. >> and i know you're not a doj

spokesperson, but tell me what is the reporting on the delay and the congressional committee by the way didn't exist until late summer or early fall 2021. what were they doing? were they hoping that trump would go away as someone that the country saw as responsible for planning a coup? >> no, what is actually really interesting about this, when you go back an do the archeology, is the basic template for this entire investigation was created by the trump-appointed u.s. attorney for the district of columbia. who created six or -- i forgot what the number is. five or six or seven buckets of investigation. and remember the initial impetuous was to investigate the rioters at the capitol. there were only knock on investigations that evolved a little bit later in this process that involved people up the food chain. and garland, right after being

sworn in. i think it was mid-march if i'm recalling correctly of 2021, garland essentially met with the prosecutor, the u.s. attorney in washington and accepted that template. and that was really the template that guided this investigation as it moved up the food chain until october of 2021. when he appointed this guy thomas wyndham, a prosecutor from maryland to oversee the various strands of the investigation. and when we wrote about it roughly around that time, also came across some subpoenas that were issued in the middle of last year, wyndham was casting an extremely wide net. asking for information about bernie carrick, rudy giuliani. it didn't seem initially that he was working or moving as closely towards trump until later on in the year. so, very much, in terms of what peter said, i think we're seeing the fruits of an investigation that began literally at the grassroots, from the rioters at the capitol up the food chain

methodically to trump. i don't know if that answers the senator's question but that is my reporting as to how it proceeded. i think there is a question a lot of people have asked why garland didn't appoint a special counsel sooner. the answer is garland never wanted to appoint a special counsel. he believes that when donald trump announced his intention to run, and joe biden announced his intention to run, that under the special counsel regulation, he was compelled to do so. but i've reported and others have reported that garland was very resistant to handing that off to a special counsel. >> so, well now he has three if you count durham and if you report him saz a half of one after "the new york times" on that. barr was partisan and political. garland is also political. because the notion that you're going to work your way up to trump and not need -- i mean, it is like what we need a bigger boat. of course it was going to need a

special counsel. who was going to investigate trump? it doesn't make any sense to me barbara mcquade. and i'm with claire. i do believe there is a growing body of unanswered questions. and there are some democrats on the politicization committee, i would want to know the answer to some of the back room sort of mashing or gnashing around. why the delay? >> well, i certainly don't know the facts about what could have contributed to the delay. but with regard to the special counsel and that only solves a conflict of interest problem, that doesn't add speed to it. it is not like nobody investigated until jack smith came along as wyndham was leaving that investigation more than a year before. jack smith came in because of the perceived conflict when donald trump announced he was a candidate for office. some people worried that jack smith might slow things down because you're starting over but it seemed like he's moving forward quickly so that is not a problem. i don't know, i could only

imagine that it is a traditional model of building a large conspiracy case or any kind of large investigation to start low and build high and use lower level people to flip against higher level people but the pace of the case seemed slow. it wasn't until late in 2021 or even in 2022 that they first began talking about donald trump in earnest and other than to maybe speculate that merrick garlands who mission at the department of justice has to been to restore the department's integrity and independence, that he was perhaps blinded by the need to be more aggressive because he was so concerned about appearing not to be political, but he actually made the department political in that effort. i've used this analogy before, but it is like when you're the coach of the kid's baseball team and you don't want to appear to be favoring and everybody agrees he should be pitching and batting first. >> i want to you ask one more

question, peter. they testified under oath that it was terrorism and until he went on tucker carlson and redacted it. are you aware of any other cases that go this slowly? >> no, but i've not aware of any other domestic terrorism cases that are this large. if you look at some of the things when you look out in michigan and the recent kidnapping plot, some of those things take time but we're talking five to six to seven people. keep in mind, this is almost approaching or surpassing a thousand folks. i agree to the early points that barb and glenn made. i think this is something that does take time even if you're trying to rush and i don't know that doj has rushed enough but keep in mind that john eastman, jeffrey clark, and phones were all seized early last year. and so the notion that nothing was happening until special counsel smith was appointed i think isn't quite right. i think these things were going

on. i think from some of the recent reporting, a lot of the folks doing that investigation were brought into and incorporated into this special counsel efforts. so i think this is just a massive, massive undertaking and when you add to what you spoke to at the beginning of the hour about not only the insurrection, but the fake elector plot, and you talk about mishandling classified documents, all of these things are huge. and so, no, i'm not aware of anything taking this long. but i'm not -- this is bar none the largest investigation in the history of the department of justice and the fbi. not even close. so i think we have to keep that in mind. and am i frustrated that it hasn't gone as fast as i think it might. yes. do i they we're going there increasingly? i do. >> that is going to be the last word. it is a great and important piece of reporting that enhances our understanding. thank you for reporting and taking so much time to talk to us about it. when we come back, how team trump is explaining why one of the many classified items he

kept remained in his mar-a-lago bedroom. it is a bizarre excuse that prong or track of the doj special council investigation based on glenn's reporting appears to be moving ahead -- i don't know if we call it quickly, but definitely moving ahead. plus a judge this week could make public part of the report's the ex president's attempt to steal the 11,000 through votes he demanded on the phone. there is concern that some witnesses may very well have lied under oath to the grand jury. this is a first time today that we're learning this. there were a lot of witnesses so we don't know who it was but we'll talk about that coming up in the show. also later, three unidentified objects shot down in as many days but what officials could tell us about them at this hour. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where.

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now you also turned over an empty folder, marked classified to investigators. where was this folder and why was it turned over? >> the folder is kind of one of the more humorous aspects of this whole thing. this is not a classified foaler. this is a folder that when my team went through and searched and they wrote up their report, which we turned over to doj, they saw -- it is a a folder, manila folder that said class fied evening summary on it. and it was in the president's bedroom. he has one of those landline telephones next to his bed and has a blue light on it. and it keeps him up at night.

so he took the manila folder and put it over it so that it would keep the light down so he could sleep at night. >> leader of the free world, is a blue light in his bedroom, leader of the free world's blue light keeps him awake. so leader of the free world does a diy fix and puts a folder over it. okay. that was tim with that bizarre story about the discovery of a folder labelled as classified at mar-a-lago. he added that doj quote, went crazy when they discovered the existence of the folder and issued a subpoena for you. whatever team trump is provided for the folder ending up at mar-a-lago it is worth noting we don't know what happened to the stuff that was inside of it. the fact that the justice department issued a subpoena for it speaks to the intensity with which jack smith is now pursuing the document probe as well.

and the fact that he's leaving no stone unturned. "the new york times" is reporting that smith is, quote, casting a wide net. and that net included trump's attorneys. the lawyer who has represented trump in the documents case for months, that would be evan corcoran, recently appeared before a grand jury as did another attorney christina bob, that is according to new reporting in the "wall street journal." "new york times" adds this, quote, smith's team is seeking interviews with a number of people who worked in the trump white house and who familiarity with either how he consumed classified information or how he dealt with paper that he carted with him in cardboard boxes during much of the span of his presidency. and as a subpoena for the folder shows, it is still an open question whether trump has any of the stuff that was in it. any of the classified documents that were in his possession. once again, from the times report, the lawyers for the former president notified prosecutors recently about a potential witness they might want to speak with. a relatively junior former staff member who trump -- toer trump

who had uploaded classified material on to a laptop and discovered it only after the fact. that is according to a different person familiar with this incident. joining our conversation, former republican congressman and contributor david jolly and pete and claire are back as well. where to start? i worked in the white house and it is a hard job. but people are everywhere trying to help you. i mean, it is not a castle. but it is a pretty cushy residence. the idea there was a light that kept him up and he had to near his on solution is implausible at best, claire. >> yeah, this is very weird. i guess i want to withhold, you know, scathing judgment here until we all learn what the classified documents were that were recovered various places.

there is two issues, one how much he was working to keep the documents from the government that owned them, and the second thing is what were the essence of the documents that were found at mar-a-lago. what did they contain compared to the documents that were found in biden's home and in pence's home. because that is what a jury is going to want to know. a jury is going to want to know, are these big deals? all of these documents and if their all big deals then no matter what trump did, it is hard to convict him. but if trump's documents are big deals and they could lay the foundation of how much he was trying to keep them from doj, and lied to doj about it, and used staff to help him and lawyers to help him lie about it, then you're starting to get into territory where you really do have a prosecutable case

against the guy who lives at the golf club. >> and i understand that the blue light on his phone was at the white house and in palm beach, in mar-a-lago. but here is what his lawyer said about returning things because it seems the obstruction case, why not just charge the obstruction cases which seems to have taken place in full view and much of the evidence is in the documents and we know of three before the court approves a search of mar-a-lago, extraordinary to any judge she's approving that as well. this is on some of the conduct of the lawyers. from the times reporting, an aide to trump christina bob signed an attestation in june claiming that a diligent search had been conducted of mar-a-lago in response to a grand jury subpoena. she asserted that the remaining documents turned over in june were all that remain there. bob has appeared twice before the justice department and has

told people that mr. corcoran drafted that statement. the "wall street journal" reported that one visit was before the grand jury. she's also said she was connected with mr. corcoran by boris epstein, another trump lawyer and adviser who brought mr. corcoran into trump's circle and empowered by trump for months to play the lead role in coordinating lawyers in some of the investigations. it must be a busy job. but barb, it seems if we're now at the point where lawyers are being put before a grand jury, we're way beyond believing that the lawyers, that -- it seems that there is evidence of a crime to go to that extraordinary step. >> i agree with you, nicolle. it is a very extraordinary step to put a lawyer in the grand jury. prosecutors are very respectful of the attorney/client privilege and so when it comes to providing legal advice to a clients, that is something that they handle with kid gloves.

they could be talking about fact witnesses, what did you see and sign, that would not be covered by the attorney/client privilege, but i imagine what they're trying to glean here is donald trump's direct involvement in the obstruction of justice. i think it is a attractive charge to charge him with solely obstruction of justice and how you could treat me differently than joe biden and mike pence because nobody has engaged in the kind of obstruction in this case. i think what they're trying to do is tie to directly to donald trump. the more you introduce the other characters, christina bob or evan corcoran, made representations to the justice department, he could say i didn't know what they were saying. i was handed off. there was reporting that he met with jay brat, who came down from the justice department to look around at mar-a-lago in june of last year. and so, that could be helpful. but i imagine what they're trying to do is to find out to

what extent could they attribute these false statements and failure to return the documents in the face of a subpoena, to donald trump himself as opposed to aides who were dealing with him at an arm's length. >> pete, i want to you ask a question about the fbi's equities in this. what is the -- it seems that the stakes for anyone in the national security apparatus of the united states of america couldn't be higher than making sure that classified documents are returnable. i mean, there is reporting, we don't know what is still there. what he did with it. but the things that we know, that he took it and he was involved in the packing of it and kept it and told lawyers to lie about returning it. that is all public. why wouldn't the fbi want to talk to dina powell, and john kelly and john bolton about how trump handled classified materials over the four years of his presidency? >> well, nicolle, i'm sure they

do. and i would be surprised if they haven't talked to people, once they would be inclined to talk to the fbi and the doj about those questions. i don't think there is anybody in america who is serious and followed the news who believes that the u.s. has recovered all of the classified information that trump has in his possession. and this later round of discoveries that some poor intern or somebody at a low level working at his pack scanned material into a computer and maybe put it on a thumb drive that had classified information. setting aside all of the building of a criminal case and establishing the elements of a crime through admissible evidence, if you pivot and look at the national security implications, now only do you have satellite overhead pictures or whatever the heck he was keeping that were recovered. now you have a bunch of additional information that was on now computer media. that might have been connected to the internet. any good intelligence service is trying to get access to any

president or former president's computer systems and if you look at it from a risk assessment, damage assessment perspective, you have a whole new can of worms that are very different than who had access to the physical space in mar-a-lago. now you have to look at an entirely new threat picture about what happened and the worry is, again, i don't think the united states has all of the classified information back. and what trump hasn't done, one that is clear there is a problem with the way that the classified ffgs has been handled recently at the white house, but what stands trump apart from all of the other folks, unlike joe biden, unlike mike pence who said, you have my consent to come in and search all of my properties. look all around to satisfy yourself. trump still to this day, mid-february, 2023, refused to grant that consent to finally put that question to bed. and until he does, i don't think anybody could rest easy. >> david jolly, in terms of understanding what they're doing, so we're at the trump sending his lawyers out to defend him on cable news part of

the trump bluster. he's also got his allies in congress positioned in charge of a subcommittee called politicization of the federal government to defend him. and i guess the question is, we've seen that those two strategies is obvious as they are to anyone who has been watching for last six years, they seem to resonate in ways that creates pause inside doj. what do you see? >> yeah, well it ramps up the political intensity that the attorney general, you know, does have to wrestle with. he's not making the decision in a vacuum even though we like to think that he is. but i think bringing in the team around him, nicolle, is an interesting perspective. because it is one of the questions that i have. what jumped out at me about that interview from the lawyers saying hey he puts this over the blue light next to his bed so he could sleep better, is what type of team do you have around you that you agree to give an

interview and that is the statement you deliver on national tv and that is true of his congressional allies. what team do you have? and you have marjorie taylor green and lauren boebert and does he have the people around him to survive the legal jeopardy he may be in and to successfully mount a run for the white house in 2024. recall when he broke through the republican ceiling in 2016, the first impulse of republicans was let's put the good people around him and he'll be a good president. and then it shifted to, well now we need good people around him to protect him from being worse, from his worse impulses. now there is nobody -- well repute if you will, around him and i think it is a big question. could he survive a legal environment where he's now on scrutiny and survive a political environment where he's equally under scrutiny. >> and i think we'll see the impact of donald trump under investigation without bill barr

putting his thumb on the scales of justice and presiding over doj. there is more on this today. new details that we are just learning are expected later this week in the georgia criminal investigation. into trump's efforts to over turn the 2020 election there. what we could learn about some of the witness testimony from this long awaited report. as we said before, the judge thinks that people lied. that reporting is next. comple. together we support immune function. supply fuel for immune cells and sustain tissue health. ensure with twenty-five vitamins and minerals, and ensure complete with thirty grams of protein. in three seconds, fifteen couples will share a perfect moment. is that? oh wow! but we got to sell our houses! well, almost perfect. my place is too small; your place is too far. selling them means repairs, listings, cleanings. what's the market even like?

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big news out of georgia. today a judge there gave the okay for a glimpse of a report that includes a bombshell accusation to be released. it could help answer the question we've been asking for a long time. could the disgraced ex president face criminal charges for potential interference in georgia's 2020 presidential election. and could that call be part of it. judge robert mcbernie has orted a public release this thursday of portions of the report prepared by the fulton county special purpose grand jury. parts he calls, quote, ripe for publication. while we await the rest. the introduction and the conclusion and section eight of the report which details the special grand jury's quote, concern that some witnesses may have lied under oath during their testimony, end quote. portions will on thursday will not name names, but we know who it could be, includes dozens of

key players in the trump coup plot who have testified during the eight-month long investigation. people like lindsey graham and rudy giuliani. maybe even people like mark meadows. judge mcbernie confirmed in his ruling that the special grand jury provided district attorney fannie willis with this, a roster of who should or should not be indicted and for what, end quote. wow, that part, he said will continue to be kept secret. meanwhile, any official charging decisions will be up to d.a. fannie willis who the judge said possesses, quote, the only physical copy of the report. one that we know could be the whole road map for her to bring a criminal indictment against any member of the trump coup plot team through a regular grand jury. so here is fannie willis in court asking why the court stay sealed. it was for the sake of the

potential defendants. >> we think four future defendants to be treated fairly is not appropriate at this time to have this report released. at this time, in the interest of justice, and the rights of in the the state but others, we are asking that the report not be released because you haven't seen that report. decisions are imminent. >> we're back with our panel. david jolly, i think this is so, so, so important. a criminal investigation has brought back one result that we know about. that the special grand jury believes witnesses lied to them. this is why we covered this every day. this is what happens when the rule of law seems to be something that donald trump could opt into and out of it depending on his mood. i'm not surprising to learn that a special grand jury found that witnesses lied but i'm shocked and i wonder if you think it is a sign of things to come as jack

smith's problem intensifies? >> look, i would think so, the practicing attorneys here would know better than i that broader the reach and more witnesses, the more complex and more likely someone purges or lies. could the district attorney reach all the way up to donald trump and say he directed some type of interference. we know there is the famous phone call where the audio tape exists. but we also know that rudy giuliani testified that mark meadows testified and there also could be a host of people who were involved, that we don't know today, but were involved in kind of the fake electors scheme if you will, and conspiracy to create fake electors. so within that broad constituency of the people that the prosecutors might be looking at, certainly someone purge orring themself could have happened. but i think it is also likely at the words of donald trump are

now going to be impugned by the surrounding testimony to the former president. it also is an example possibly, possibly of one the power center has evaporated and donald trump is not president, are some of the witnesses to donald trump lies or someone else lies. the truth is over here. we're waiting to find out. >> barbara, one of the things that i was thinking about was late in the process we learned that cassidy hutchinson was testifying and after her testimony before congress and the world. and i wonder if you think that her testimony impugned the other witnesses and that could be why members of the special grand jury believe that, quote, some witnesses lied? >> it is difficult to know, without seeing the testimony itself. but it seems that for them to be able to reach that conclusion, they must have had evidence that

-- contradicts their testimony, and a witness that they do find credible, that makes them question the testimony of another or it could even be contradicting documents and phone records and other kinds of things so it is difficult to know. one thing that does strike me about this, is it is a really big deal. people don't lie before the grand jury. they are warned as they come in. it is a crime to lie to us and here are the penalties, you will go to prison if you lie and prosecutors pursue those kind of cases. they don't let them slide. and so to lie before a grand jury is a really big deal and often it is what prosecutors refer to as consciousness of guilt. that is why would you risk imprisonment for making up a lie under oath in front thought adme truth was worse? so i'm really curious about this reporting that they are going to include in their report that they believe that some of the witnesses lied. >> it's extraordinary. but i think every norm that's

obliterated, every conduct that is beneath what we previously believed to be the floor of human behavior, especially before a criminal grand jury, every time it's lowered we have an analysis like this. and it's just fascinating, as jack smith ramps "up," that we now have a special grand jury in georgia that believes, quote, witnesses plural lied to them. pete strzok, barbara mcquade, thank you so much for spending the hour with us. we are grateful. up next we're going to give claire mccaskill her moment in the sun. with her home state victory last night. right after a short break. it was the cake. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. i'm managing my high blood pressure, but i'm still a target for chronic kidney disease. and my type 2 diabetes means i'm also a target. we are targets too. millions have chronic kidney disease and 90% don't know they have it. so ask for your kidney numbers and farxiga. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects

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♪♪ here we go. hurts. has all day. now some rushers come. going to throw it as far as his arm can take it, which is well short. and the kansas city chiefs have won super bowl lvii! >> the last seconds of the biggest game of the year last night. a moment our friend claire probably can't get enough of. that incomplete pass completed their come-from-behind victory in the fourth quarter beating the philadelphia eagles 38-35, taking their second super bowl championship in four years. david jolly and claire mccaskill are here. claire, it was a very dramatic end. i'm trying to be diplomatic, not a skill set i tap into very often. but there are some eagles fans on my beloved staff that are

licking their wounds. but this is a glorious win for your kansas city chiefs. >> it was a glorious win. and i've got to say, i was there, and it was -- the first half the eagles team, mad respect to them. they dominated. our team in the first half. and in the second half it was the opposite. and what i hate about that call, what i hate most about that call is i know eagles fans think the holding call was so unfair and it cost them the game. but that's really unfair to the chiefs because in the second half the vaunted eagles defense that was supposed to decimate the chiefs' offense could not stop the chiefs. they never stopped -- every time the chiefs touched the ball in the second half of the game they scored. and that wasn't the refs. that was effort. and i hate it for the chiefs that there's so much talk about that blipping call because there's always calls in a game and frankly candidly the losers

usually talk about those calls. but i hate it also for the chiefs because they deserve the respect that they're getting today. i think from most people who carefully watched both halves of the game. >> david jolly. >> i'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole. what i would tell you is this. my home state of florida has a rich, rich history of major league baseball spring training. pitchers and catchers started reporting today. so get ready for the next season. >> we need baseball. claire, i think your cake did it. i was watching it. i said i think it was the cake. and mahomes coming back after clearly hurting his ankle in the first half was pretty heroic. that always suggests some sort of superpowers. david jolly and claire mccaskill, thank you so much for spending the hour with us today. it's a perfect way to start the week. a very short break, and then the latest on those mysterious objects seemingly everywhere. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. e. we'll be right back.

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i don't think the american people need to worry about aliens with respect to these craft, period. i don't think there's any more that needs to be said there. >> that was a relief. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. they may not have been sent by aliens. but we still really don't know very much about the three unidentified objects that were shot down by u.s. fighter jets in just as many days. we still do not know what they were, who sent them or why they were there. or what they were doing up there. nsc coordinator for strategic communications admiral john

kelly telling reporters this afternoon that efforts to recover all three objects are currently under way. he said once the debris from the objects are retrieved and examined we can get better answers to all those questions. the shooting down of these three flying objects follows of course the downing of the large chinese spy balloon a week prior. melissa dalton, assistant secretary of homeland defense and hemispheric affairs said during a press conference that hypervigilance in response to the spy balloon could be a possible explanation as to why we saw so many objects in such a short time. >> in light of the people's republic of china balloon that we took down last saturday we have been more closely scrutinizing our airspace at these altitudes including enhancing our radar, which may at least partly explain the increase in objects that we've detected over the past week. because we have not yet been able to definitively assess what these recent objects are, we

have acted out of an abundance of caution to protect our security and interests. the spy balloon in the prc was of course different in that we knew precisely what it was. these most recent onlts do not pose a kinetic military threat but their paths and proximity to sensitive d.o.d. sites and the altitude that they were flying could be a hazard to civilian aviation and thus raise concerns. >> so here's more of what we do know so far about these three new objects. the first was shot down on friday just off northeastern alaska over the arctic sea. it had been flying at about 40,000 feet and was described as roughly the size of a small car. the second also similar size to a small car, had been flying at the same altitude and was taken out over the yukon in canada on saturday. president joe biden coordinated that takedown with canada's prime minister trudeau. the object was small small and cylindrical in shape.

the recovery of both of those objects is in progress but it's complicated by the conditions there. rugged terrain and wintry weather. now, the third object was shot down yesterday in the midwest over lake huron after it was flying at 20,000 feet. u.s. officials say it was octagon shaped with strings hanging off of it. recovery of this object is difficult because of the depth of the lake. as the number of objects rises, so too do the demands for answers from the public and from congress. the senate is set to receive a classified briefing tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. and here's house intelligence committee ranking member jim himes on "meet the press" just yesterday. >> i sort of see a pattern. as he looked at social media this morning, you know, all of a sudden massive speculation about alien invasions and additional chinese action or russian action. in the absence of information people's anxiety leads them into potentially destructive areas. so i do hope that very soon the administration has a lot more information for all of us on what's going on.

>> what we know and what remains the mystery surrounding the unidentified objects shot down over the weekend is where we start the hour. "new york times" pentagon correspondent helene cooper is here. also joining us frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. they're both msnbc contributors. so helene, i thought back to what you shared here. two points you made. and i want to sort of pick up where we left off. one, they're shooting down objects that endanger air travel, right? these are lower than the spy balloon. and so they could be a hazard. and two, you also -- i wanted you to explain a little bit more the change in how we treat and how we classify these unidentified objects. >> hi, nicolle. thanks for having me. your question actually zeros in exactly on the contradiction that -- in what we're hearing from the administration because they're telling us and they seem

to be coalescing now on this theory that because we raised our awareness and opened the aperture so to speak because of the chinese spy balloon, so now we're looking a lot more, so of course when you look more you find more. but then at the same time they're saying hey, maybe these things were there, you know, that just begs the point and says that maybe these things have been there all along. these things have been there all along evidently not crashing into commercial air traffic, then why is it that we are shooting them down so quickly? and that's where you start getting into sort of the political reality, is this because president biden was criticized for taking so long to shoot down the chinese spy balloon, so he wants to, you he know, protect himself from that -- from political criticism? or is there some other reason? but it seems to me that those

two things -- i guess they can both be true but it's kind of hard to see how they can both be true. because if we're -- if we are finding more things because we're looking for, why are the things that we're finding presumably they've been there all along, so why are they a danger to commercial air traffic? >> well, to exactly your point and your question, i want to show you john kirby, who i misappropriated as john kelly. this is not john kelly. this is john kirby. let me play this, helene, and let's pick up. >> we were able to determine that china has a high-altitude balloon program for intelligence collection that's connected to the people's liberation army. it was operating during the previous administration but they did not detect it. we detected it. we tracked it. >> so at least on -- and i know your reporting separates these things out. at least on the chinese objects, which we only know the first one was chinese, right? it's the latter, right?

it was shot down because of detection. but to your better point, we don't know what the standard is or if they've created a new one for the other he three. >> that's what i don't know. the chinese balloon was -- and then this gets a little bit complicated. but the chinese balloon, part of the reason why the chinese balloon was detected is because we've been -- ever since -- the pentagon used to be tsuper, super secretive about their ufo program which they called unidentified aerial phenomena. and they have been loosening up the secrecy on that. they've opened up some of the classifications. they've been briefing congress. and when they went back and started looking at this program they realized that they had been tracking -- this program had tracked stuff that they had just sort of classified as stashed away as unidentified aerial phenomena. they looked at it and realized these are actually balloons, that could he go back

retroactively and look and see while there were three that came during the trump administration, et cetera, et cetera. so the intel they're saying was there all along. it just wasn't necessarily looked at properly and categorized. that's all different, though, from what's happening now with these other three objects. and what's really interesting is that it appears that the three objects that were shot down beginning friday are different. defense officials tell me with some degree of assurance that the first originates the one that was shot down on friday over dead horse, alaska -- isn't that the best name? i'm dying to go out there and get that dateline. i so want to go. but they're doing the recovery effort up there now around prudhomme bay. but they think that one is not a balloon because it shattered when it hit the ground. the other two they say privately

they're more leaning to thinking are balloons. any one or all or none of the three could still be spy apparatus of some sort but at the moment they have -- i think they have theories but i actually believe them now when they say they don't know for sure. >> frank figliuzzi, the question i put to jim himes, who was here, congressman jim himes on friday, was is this a thing? does everyone have a spy balloon flying above their adversary collecting information or does this represent an escalation from china in the case of the first one and we don't know where the other ones came from? but is there a brazenness in terms of how and where and who is spying on america? >> so yes. we do need to level set. and the level set would involve understanding that we spy on others and they spy on us and

this goes on all the time. however, comma, the distinction with this first incident which was clearly by all accounts, except perhaps the chinese account, was a chinese reconnaissance spy balloon, is that it was seemingly designed to send a message. this kind of low-altitude in your face we're coming to montana then we're going to kind of float across the rest of the united states, even if they lost control of it sometimes, then regained control, that's a brazen -- why? what message are they sending? >> helene -- sorry. >> the message it appears is being sent is -- >> go ahead, frank. >> i'm sure. can you -- >> yeah. keep going, frank. >> the message it appears is being sent -- yeah. is look, we can do this. we can do this at will. we're not sure you're going to detect us he very early. and if you kind of play out the intelligence that has been rumored around washington and the defense sector for the past couple of years, increasingly

china seemed poised to take back taiwan at some point in the not too distant future. and increasingly they are talking and chatting about doing that. and what this could be theoretically, the first balloon, is an attempt to say look, we have -- we're mapping out and precisely targeting your nuclear installations in the united states. which is what the government says this balloon floated over. and if they're doing that they're sending the message if you really retaliate, if we move against taiwan, we now have precisely zeroed in on your nuclear facilities just to let you know. i think that's kind of what may be going on with this first balloon. and yes, it's very brazen. which is very not chinese-like, by the way. they tend to act very subtly in the intelligence arena. we need to pay attention to that. secondly these others. i'm really concerned about the others not because they pose a threat. they seemingly do not. but rather because there's a phrase being used by officials in washington to describe this

as, quote, a domain awareness gap. that is not something i like to hear with regard to national security. domain awareness gap is we're blind about something. and what we seem to have been blind to or are blind to is these objects apparently with frequency coming into our territory undetected and yes, they may have opened the aperture and increased the filter but as has just been said wait a minute, you mean we haven't in the past seen things that are enough of a threat to have to shoot down? and so we need answers on that before this continues and we need to establish new criteria, what gets shot down, what not. but it's a teachable moment for us because there is a whole lot of stuff floating out there in space. a lot of it. commercial. much of it commercial. navigational satellites. mapping satellites. weather. all of that going on all the time.

and i'm quite disturbed that our intelligence community has not been able to figure out what's a threat, what's not, what belongs to the corporate sector, what belongs to an adversary. that needs to get better fast. >> helene. >> i mean, i think that's completely right. i think a lot of this is because there are so many things that we don't know. when general glenn van hurt with northern command last week said part of the reason was the united states had a domain awareness gap in the past, referring to why it is that they were just now figuring out the trump administration incursions, that wasn't a phrase that went over that well and as you -- you know, so that's one of the things that have long since been -- criticism of the pentagon, and that goes back again to this whole, you know,

uap program. the hypersecrecy around that prevented the defense department and some intel communities from being as aware as they could have been about what's going on in the skies above. that was a big criticism of the secrecy of that program. that is now starting to open up. but i think we're still seeing the repercussions. >> and i don't want to gloss over how -- helene, you've covered john kirby for a long time. i didn't have john kirby standing behind a podium saying we can rule out aliens on my bingo card for early 2023. i mean, how -- and we live in a moment, an unprecedented moment in our countries history with disinformation and space lasers and conspiracy theories. i mean, how concerned are they that this is going to get out of control faster than they can gather the facts? >> i think they're very concerned. i mean, nobody expected the word

aliens to come out of the mouth of somebody standing at the white house podium in the press room. that's just -- that seems crazy. and there were moments over the weekend, particularly on saturday -- on friday when we first heard okay, they're tracking something, i heard about this, just before they shot it down, i thought is this -- you know, can this be real? on saturday it felt as if when they shot the second -- sorry, the third object down over yukon, you then start to feel like wow, these are unidentified flying objects. is this -- i'm sure your phone probably blew up as well with people asking is this the alien invasion. it's not. clearly. and while general van herk said yesterday i'm not going to rule out anything, nobody i've spoken to in the administration thinks that these are aliens. but the problem is that until

you can say yes, we know what they are it's very hard for you to say but we know what it isn't. and it's hard for people to believe that. >> yeah. hard for people to believe piece is i think the challenge of anyone at any institution including the military. frank, i want to ask you about the geopolitical significance of having america's pentagon now consumed by, at least in the short term, some people at high levels having to now go and do a classified briefing for the hill, having to prepare spokespeople to answer questions about the fourth shot down thing in the sky. what sort of adversary would strategize to have just that happen to us? >> there's really only two that come to mind right now on this, and that's china and russia that have the capability and have the objects already up there and are working on even more advanced

technology. kid as we did, many of us, with this concept that donald trump created a space force, those of us in the intelligence community understood for years that there's literally a battle going on in space for space. so as we speak, there are chinese objects and satellites trying to push out american satellites, get them out of their orbit. all kinds of bizarre things happening in outer space at all times. increasingly the russians involved as well. and this goes on well under the radar, no pun intended, of most americans. it's a form of distraction. and yes, while we're so occupied in support of ukraine against russia, while we're wondering what china might do against taiwan, while we're dealing with our own domestic issues, now here comes this other risk and threat. and it really is a geopolitical challenge because we should be identifying objects and requiring from an international perspective certain standards. we put tail numbers on airplanes, right? we can tag wild animals in the

forests because they're endangered. or we simply want to know the migration pattern of a penguin or a goose. we tag them and track them around the world. we're not seemingly doing that with even commercial traffic up there, and we should be, and it requires a global solution. >> i wanted to talk to the two of you ever since -- as helene said. as alerts came in over the weekend. i knew you'd have the most knowledge and wisdom and know what the questions are and where this story's heading. helene and frank, thank you so much for starting us off on this today. we're really grateful. when we come back, the college board is clapping back at the state of florida, accusing its governor ron desantis and the florida department of education of posturing for political gain. and showing, quote, ignorance and derision for the field of african american studies. the latest twist in the fallout of the advance the placement african american studies course is next. plus, one florida professor who

is fighting back, taking high school students to sites of racially motivated violence in defiance of his state's governor. he'll be our guest later in the program. and the slow-motion environmental disaster unfolding in ohio right now. after a train carrying hazardous chemicals went off the tracks. why some residents are not convinced that it is safe to return home yet despite what officials are telling them. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother, alice. and, long lasting gain scent beads. try gain odor defense. be gone, smelly everything! something's happening at ihop.

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that is the now boiling hostility in a feud between the state of florida and the college board. you'll recall at the center of this battle is the state's ban on a new a.p. african american studies course for high school students. the college board had received criticism from some sclashz for altering the curriculum amid wng complaints, lifting sections on topics like black lives matter and reparations. the non-profit has insisted now, though, that the changes were not made in response to political pressure and they are hitting back. this weekend the college board unleashed a scathing statement aimed right at governor ron desantis suggesting it regretted not immediately denouncing the florida department of education's, quote, slander as they call it that african american studies, quote, lacks educational value. the board went even further than that, though. they accused some of veering the debate into misinformation. from their letter, "we have made the mistake of treating the

florida department of smejs with the courtesy we always accord to an education agency. but they have instead exploited this courtesy for their political agenda. after each written or verbal exchange with them, as a matter of professional protocol, we politely thanked them for their feedback and contributions, although they had given none." joining us "new york times" national correspondent dana goldstein. she's been on this beat. "the new york times." plus the president of the american federation of teachers, or friend randi weingarten is back. and democratic strategist basil smikle is here. director of the policy program at henry college. i feel like you nua, there were some big developments coming when i spoke to you on friday. but here they are. take us through your reporting. >> yeah, so we now have been able to speak to both sides and learn a little bit more about what happened between the state of florida and the college board. and what is really stunning is that there was negotiations and contact with them over the

course of many months and it all came to a boil at this one meeting in november. you know the state of florida was specific with the college board about some of what they objected to in a.p. african american studies. for example, they said, well, look, you have a lesson here on the history of the black panther party. they implied that was akin to indoctrinating students into panther ideology and asked the college board representatives if that were true. they also said to them what is intersectionality anyhow? and when the harvard-educated ph.d. who works for the college board attempted to explain what intersectionality was to them, why it was crucial to black studies, he told us that the representatives from florida sort of sat there stony-faced to that and they really felt that these were not productive discussions. nevertheless, it remains the case, no matter what the college board is saying, that after

these meetings with florida they removed these concepts from their required list of topics for this course. you know, they are saying that now the reason they took concepts like intersectionality, black lives matter out is because they had become so politicized, essentially these words had been co-opted by the right and they wanted to get some of the same ideas across without using language that they felt was going to open the class up to attacks. >> randi, i read this story and i read this reporting and i wondered if under coups we would also add january 6th to the famous coups the world over. >> of course. >> the idea that erasing what actually happened is somehow beneficial to the mission of educating anybody anywhere is insane. how did it come to this? >> so let me just say i completely agree with you and

i -- when i first saw what the college board did, and let me just confess, i am an a.p. gov teacher. i have taught not african american studies but i have taught a.p. gov. so i was disappointed, as i said that day, with what the college board had taken out and also some other choices like the fact that a. phillip randolph was not given the credit that he should be given as the kind of labor leader and african american labor leader who really did do -- who really did move the american labor movement. like you know, what happened with -- what happened with several. so i could go through these black scholars who i've spent time studying. i think dana is right about what she just said about intersectionality. i think clearly there was a back and forth. but let me just say this. this curriculum was in place in

three miami high schools. and desantis took it out, pulled it out, and those kids in those three high schools have lost out. and now because the college board has said to desantis you have defamed us or scapegoated us or whatever else they said this weekend in their letter, what is desantis doing? now he's saying, well, maybe i'll take out all of the college board classes. so the point is there have been politics involved here and this is the point we've tried to make throughout, which is stop the politics in schools, let us teach children, and let us make sure that kids, particularly these high school kids, have this kind of elective that would be really good in this country right now in terms of african american studies. and that's what desantis is trying to stop. and i'm sorry that the college

board got in the midst of this and didn't see who he was. but i think let's watch what desantis does right now. he's treating the college board like he has treated disney, as if he alone makes decisions about the educational needs of kids as opposed to teachers and parents. >> i mean, i think, basel, there are also lessons of the effectiveness of governing by bullying and ignorance. and i think the fact that they are now accusing him of slander, which has a legal -- a very specific legal definition. i'm curious to ask dana if there will be legal proceedings to come. it is interesting again, anew, one more time, to see that when any institution yields to political pressure, politicization and bullying, it never wins. it's never the right thing to do. >> yeah, and what's scary here is that the college board does wield so much power. i mean, the psat exam is used to determine scholarships, merit

scholarships for some of these -- for young people. so it's an incredibly important organization in the life of a child who's seeking higher ed. i imagine that the college board got swift and substantial backlash. listen, i'm a ph.d. in education and politics. that's my concentration. so i'm well aware of the intersection of these two themes and two subjects. but to co-opt the legal term, it seems as though the college board was concerned that they were aiding and abetting the nascent presidential campaign of ron desantis, who is -- who clearly is intent upon talking about and nationalizing a curriculum that is anti-inclusion, anti-diversity, anti-teacher in my view. and i am concerned that what

this does is it creates a chilling effect not just for k-12 education but for higher ed. the college board did say in their letter that theyogized to were helping them. but the reality is i'm a black professor, i work with a lot of black professors. there are only 7% of us in higher ed, about the same in k-12 education in terms of black teachers. so what does it say that you essentially undermined so much of the work that was put into creating this curriculum in the first place? it's unfortunate. i think the damage is already done. but there is more to come because now desantis has a strong narrative for whatever campaign he decides to run. >> it's such a good context to ask you this question, dana. is the college board angry that desantis is bragging about controlling the curriculum, or is the college board upset that the curriculum was altered? >> the college board is under

intense political pressure from many sides right now. they were in negotiations with the desantis administration, and they did make changes following their discussions. they are eager to present those changes as the right thing to do pedagoguically in order to be able to roll this class out to black students and students of all races in florida and the 20 other states that have passed these restrictive laws. so they believe in what they're doing. at the same time they had contact with hundreds of african american studies scholars to create this class, and in that process some of those scholars feel deeply misled by the college board. they were told point blank that there was no political negotiations or discussions going on to shape the content of this curriculum. if college black studies or african american studies departments do not feel confident in this course, they may not accept the credits from students that are arriving on campus who have received that 4

or 5 on the a.p. test. and that sort of puts this whole project of bringing this class to kids at risk. so the college board is trying to tread very carefully right now. they're trying to defuse the situation. i think randi's right, the potential for florida to sort of broaden this as the governor indicated to all a.p. classes could be huge. i mean, because we don't have a national curriculum in this country our federal government doesn't say what kids should learn, the college board plays this huge role. and florida is the third most populous state. and if kids don't have access to calculus, if they don't have access to a.p. biology, a.p. spanish, a.p. french, u.s. history, that could be a real equity issue for the students of florida. >> it's an unbelievable story. dana, we're so glad you're on it. randi weingarten, thank you for joining us to talk is it.

basil sticks around. how one long-time educator is defying ron desantis by taking florida high school students to the sites of some of the worst racial violence in florida's history. he'll join our conversation after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ just till e what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ] lomita feed is 101 years old this year and counting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com.

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the stop woke act in florida is a lot of things. among them a mishmash of vague rules and terminology, perhaps by design. there are worries about its chilling effect, though, on

teachers who want to avoid punishment under this new mishmash. so it's something of a brave, heroic life-changing act when teachers there are willing to and take it upon themselves to press forward with the important true lessons about black history anyway. marvin dunn is one such instructor who is refusing to let this new law impede the way he teaches the facts in history. from the "washington post," "dunn's statewide teach the truth tours are taking high school students to the sites of some of the worst racial violence in florida history. his first tour in january took more than two dozen high school students from miami and their family members to a museum that marks where married black civil rights activists tarry t. moore and heniette b.s. moore were killed on christmas day in 1951 when a bomb planted under their home exploded." the non-profit that dunn leads he in miami to promote black history is sponsoring the tours, and he plans to take another

group during the spring legislative session. let's bring in right now marvin dunn, professor emeritus at florida international university. he's also the auth ort of the book "a history of florida through black eyes," which cannot be used in florida classrooms. basil's still around. thank you so much for being here, professor. i want to talk about what you're doing and then i want to get your thoughts on what's happening in the state's politics. tell me about what you're doing and what you're trying to teach kids there. >> well, thanks for having me, nicolle. i appreciate being on. we're trying to create a counternarrative to what desantis has out there. we're trying to show young people that they can go to places where the blood was shed, they can feel the experiences of our ancestors and those who suffered there, learn from it, share it with others, and be just better informed about our history. so we go to places where these things have happened and we have people visit, sit, pray, sing,

talk to each other, and understand our history a lot better. i'm very, very disturbed about what's happening. i understand that in their response, in the state's response to the college board they even misspelled the word "african." what does ron desantis know about black history and where did he learn it to begin with? so he's way in over his depth. he's using education and using blacks as a way of climbing to the nomination of the republican party and is hurting american education. if i were a new professor or a new teacher, the last place i would want to go and work is florida. and for good reason. you've got to hide your books. the governor determines if you get tenure or not. this is going to destroy our educational system in florida and desantis is doing it for political reasons. >> marvin, i want to know what you think -- you're right. he's put out a narrative, so to counter the narrative you have to aggressively put the facts out there. but there's only one set of

facts. there's only one history. and i wonder what you think threatens him about the one set of facts and the true history. >> i think it threatens a lot of white people, that this history is so brutal, so pervasive, that it lasted so long and so much has to be done to make up for it. so that's a subject a lot of politicians particularly on the right would rather avoid. and i believe that sooner or later america will face the situation but not with ron desantis leading the educational charge. he has invented a monster, this woke mob, that he now has to sway and be the savior of basically white people in america. it's a cheap shot at the presidency. there's nothing honorable about what's happening. i don't see the kennedy in it. i don't see the reagan in what he's doing. i don't see the lincoln in it. it's a cheap way to try to get the nomination and it's hurting america.

>> and what is the consequence of erasing this history? >> oh. sadness. >> yeah. >> the removal of the most important aspects, of one of the most important aspects of what built our country. to take that away, to suppress that, is to suppress the very essence of america. we all built this country together. and we can all discuss our history together and not have anybody feel guilty. i was in education in classrooms for 40 years. i was a principal for a high school for 15 years. if a teacher in my building had told a white students you need to feel guilty because of slavery, i would have had that teacher out of my building the same day. it is not happening. white students are not being told they must feel bad or guilty about slavery. it is a political tactic that desantis is using and appears to be working at least in florida. >> basil, it's also so shallow and so inane.

these people don't have kids. kids go on the internet and they find the facts. and they go to movies. and there's so much out there. i mean, it is this terror, right? and i think what i'm trying to understand is what are they terrified of? >> well, i think professor dunn is -- >> i think -- >> oh, yeah. >> oh. >> professor, let me bring basil in and i'll give you the last word. >> all right. >> i think professor dunn's absolutely right. there is this -- there is a history, as he pointed out and he's pointed out, that a lot of folks are quite afraid of. and the reality is when you have african americans learning about their history, learning about their ideology, all the research says that actually increases their civic engagement. that is what folks are so concerned about. as the white population of k-12 children decreases, the population of black and brown kids is increasing and it's the mobilization and action -- of those voters, of those potential

voters that is scaring ron desantis. and just very quickly, there are two strains of scholarship, one by good brother deron jarvis called black fugitive pedagogy, the art of black teaching, and the other abolitionist teaching and learning. i bring this up because this has been going on for a very long time, decades, 100-plus years. it didn't start with ron desantis. but the reality is it should end with him. i thought we were in a different place, but we're clearly not. and the work goes on, quite frankly. >> professor, that's what i wanted to ask you. i mean, can you just take me inside -- i mean, is it transformative? is it healing? tell me what it's like when kids learn the history you're teaching them. >> frankly, some of them cry, nicolle. when we walked on that railroad track in rosewood that was used to evacuate so many people,

people were moved by that. that's not necessarily bad. history is emotion. i would hate to have someone learn about slavery or lynchings or the holocaust and not feel bad. but guilt is another matter. we're not pointing guilt at anybody. we're trying to bring forth understanding and healing. and that means facing the facts. >> amen. that's a perfect place to stop. it's a pleasure and a privilege to get to talk to you. thank you for spending some time to talk to us. basil, thank you for being part of our coverage today. we're going to shift gears a little bit. you may not have heard about it, but there's an environmental disaster unfolding in northeastern ohio, where a train carrying hazardous chemicals derailed. and residents fear things are not as safe as they're being told they are. we'll bring you the latest reporting on that after a quick break. ter a quick break. that's why visionworks gives you 100 days to change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what?

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♪♪ and the connection of a 13.4” diagonal touchscreen. chevy silverado. taking adventure to a whole new level. an environmental disaster is unfolding right now on the ohio-pennsylvania border in the city of east palestine where a train derailment forced thousands of residents to evacuate. crews ignited a controlled vent and burn of toxic chemicals to prevent a much more dangerous explosion after the derailment ten days ago. while officials have said now i safe to return home. residents have been very reluctant to do so due to lingering safety concerns including they have yet to see a full list of the chemicals aboard the train when it went off the tracks and is now

burning in their air. one resident said, quote, the air smells like an overchlorinated swimming pool. another says her family has experienced headaches and nausea, and that there is a, quote, pungent odor that reminds her of a mixture of nail polish remover and burning tires. quote, i've watched every news conference, and i haven't heard anything that makes me think this is a data-driven decision. east palestine resident maura todd said, quote, we don't feel like we have a lot of information. let's bring in andrea salcedo, who has been covering this story for "the washington post." tell us what's happening. i read your reporting. i followed it closely. how -- i mean this community doesn't seem to be getting the support it would deserve if suddenly a train derails and lobs toxic chemicals into the air around their homes. >> thank you so much for having me. my colleague, justine and

mcdaniel and i have been told that although authorities keep saying that the air quality is safe and the water is drinkable, residents can come back, but residents that we talked to do not feel like it's safe enough to come back. some who have come back are coming back to pack everything and move. i talked to a woman who said that she's going to move to kentucky and reenroll her son at a school there, at least temporarily because she unfortunately says that doesn't trust what the authorities are saying and that she is going back on sunday, yesterday, to her home with her husband, with n95 masks to use her senses. that's the word that she said. "i'm going to use my senses because i don't feel like i have enough information, and i'm going to see what my house looks like, if i have to do any cleaning, but i don't feel safe coming back." we have also talked to some of

the residents who said, i live right by the tracks. this has been my home since i was born or for a very long time, and i have to believe them. i have no choice but to trust the authorities because i just can't afford to pack my bags and leave. so it's a mixture of that, of people who either feel kind of resigned that pretty much that's all they have to do, trust the authorities, and then another half of people who don't feel like it's safe for them to stay there and are moving, at least temporarily. >> andrea, so there is norfolk southern train. is norfolk southern providing anything to the community to pay for them to relocate? just reading some of the reports from the community members themselves, they've seen fish and frogs that are dead in the local streams. they've reported dead chickens. there are shared photos of dead dogs and foxes. they smell chemical odors all around town.

who's in charge, and is anybody helping people relocate temporarily or deal with the consequences? >> so initially, authorities were telling residents that they had to -- everyone who lived within a one-mile radius of the site, of the incident, had to relocate. at first it was taken -- some residents did it. some other residents did not. then when the temperature of one of the train cars that was carrying this toxic chemical drastically changed, it was a governor of ohio who said you have to leave immediately. many residents by then did do so because they could be charged, some with child endangerment if they didn't leave. norfolk southern has set up a center where families can go and bring their receipts of those days that they were out of town. this is everyone who was within

that one-mile radius, and pretty much show this is what i've expensed, whether that be lodging, traveling, gasoline, anything, you name it, food, and then they can get reimbursed. they're also offering a $1,000 check for a member of each household as some sort of an inconvenience, and that's the word that the residents used with me. an inconvenience sum of money. the question is here is that residents feel like if they do take those $1,000, that might hurt them in future potential litigation against norfolk southern. so some of them have drafted a letter that they would want norfolk southern to sign saying if we receive this money, you cannot use this against us if we do go into litigation, and in

the future this shows that it had an impact on our health. so far, as of yesterday when i talked to residents, norfolk southern had not signed that document. >> it's an incredible body of reporting that you're doing and a really important story. thank you so much for being here with us to talk about it. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. er newbie, there's something for everyone. try one of six dishes, like new lobster and shrimp tacos for $17.99. and leave completely lobsessed. welcome to fun dining. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar

or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices. less sugar. balanceus.org . some good news from capitol hill today. pennsylvania senator john fetterman is back at work after being in the hospital for two days. doctors confirmed he did not suffer from another stroke. fetterman's communications director confirmed in a statement that all tests came back normal. fetterman had checked himself into a hospital on wednesday after feeling lightheaded during a senate democratic retreat. fetterman suffered a stroke last may. while he's on track for full recovery, the senate has made accommodations to help him

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. let me tell you off top we have a special and unusual edition of "the beat" tonight. we're launching a new series tonight. its first installment asks some big