nouns were supposed to use. one of the top lawmakers on the intelligence committee, in the house, a member of what they call the gang of eight, which gets briefed on all the most sensitive intelligence stuff he's gonna join us live here tonight to help us understand what is exactly going on with these multiple shoot downs. when i'm really interested in, is what he can tell us about whether the government knows a lot more about what's going on here than they have deaths far told us. so big information gap between what we know, and the government knows, it is nobody know anything. as hand night. rules could be talking tonight about president biden surprise firing a federal official who was still inir pla as of today from the trump administration. he was a trump appointee, but president biden has fired him tonight. and interestingly both the republican leader of the senate and the republican speaker of

the house say they support the firing, they support president biden getting rid of this trump appointed official. that is a somewhat strange story that isa breaking in washingto tonight. we'll have moren on that comin upon as well. but we start tonight here. this was just a little bit under a year ago. this was march last year, and this was the evening newscast on the biggest state run tv station in russia. this is march 14th last year. you can see the anchor there seat d in the foreground and the other person behind here. the other person behind her is actually an editor who worked at that tv station. and the sign she's holding part of it's in english says no war at the top but in russian it basically says stop the war, don't believe in propaganda, they're lying to you here and at the end russians against war. this woman held up the sign,

shouted stop the war and no to war. and again this was during a live national news broadcast on state run tv, the biggest news tv channel in russia. the woman who interrupted that broadcast she was arrested. she knew she'd be arrested for doing that. just days before she made that protest on live national tv in russia, russian president vladimir putin got his rubber stamp parliament to pass a new law declaring it was now a crime in russia just to call russia's war in ukraine a war. this wasn't even just for criticizing the war or talking negatively about the war, literally just calling it a war could get you more than a decade in prison. and then she did this, calling it a war both in english and in russian just days after that law was passed. a brave woman, potentially death

defyingly brave woman to do that. so she was arrested as she knew she would be. she was charged. she was then facing ten years in prison, but now she is free -- well, she's a fugitive, but she's free. she is out of russia. you know the group doctors without borders? there's a similar group, a truly heroic group called reporters withoutal borders, and reporter without borders are headquartered in paris and they just held a press conference with that brave russian journalist who interrupted that broadcast that night. they held a press conference with her to tell the world she's now in paris, they got her out of russia. while she was awaiting trial on those charges for which she could havech received a decade prison, russian authorities put her on house arrest in moscow. apparently according to reporters without borders after months of planning, they put

into effect a plan. it started with her using wire cutters to cut off her electronic monitoring bracelet. she then fled. they reportedly used seven different cars to sneak her to the russiansn border. they're not saying exactly which border or which route she took to get there or even which country she initially snuck to you, but they explain it was seven different cars, leaving the final car in the middle of a muddy field, and then she crossed the last few 100 meters on foot in the mud in the dark with no illumination other than the stars to keep her directional bearing. but she crossed the border, and again they are not saying how they did it, but they want it to be known that they did it, that they got her out along with her daughter. and the two of them are safe. they are out of russia. they are now in france. and the decision to publicize her exfiltration, her extraction

from russia is itself an interesting thing. the head of doctors without borders explained at this press conference why it is they didn't just get her out safely and quietly, why it is they want everybody to know she'she alive. why it is they want everyone it see her, to see she's alive, that she is out, and that she is safe. he said this. he said what marina has done shows it is possible to resist propaganda rap rat ss, that one can disrupt from within, that one can say no, and that it is possible to get out of them, to defect, to oppose the falsification of history and the news and to oppose their manipulation. it is possible. it ispu possible to resistturb disrupt, and then thereafter get away and stay alive. and they want everybody to know it. they particularly want people to

know it inside russia. it has never been easy to be the press, be the free press under an authoritarian like vladimir putin. as we reported a couple weeks ago putin has put his foot on the neck on one of the last remaining russian news organizations, an independent news organization called medusa. they're based outside russia, but they cover russia and publish in the russian language. putin has just declared even though they are not in russia, muduza is not allowed inside russia anymore, and beyond that he's declared them to be effectively almost a criminal enterprise. putin has legally branded the news organization meduza an

undesirable organization. anyonede who reads it, shares i online, gives them money or donates, anyone who gives an interview to a meduza reporter for their reporting could be arrested too andg seen as a criminal act. the staff are scared but defiant. their staff put out a statement in response to this action by putin saying, quote, we'd like to tell you that our new undesirable status doesn't worry us, it means nothing but it is untrue. we are afraid. we fear for our readers and those who have collaborated with meduza for many years and our famomy and friends. we believe in what we do. the stronger the pressure, the tougher we will resist it. that was two weeks ago, and indeed tonight two weeks hence, two weeks after we first brought you that report meduza is still there, they still exist. and tonight you can look at them

online. they offer english language translations with their reporting. here they are tonight online publishing independent accounts of the death toll of russian soldiers in ukraine, which of course we will never get from russian state media. here's something they posted earlier today on account of a report on putin being too afraid now to travel by air. he is now only traveling by heavily armored train, traveling by train instead of by plane means no one can monitor his flight data. they also have reportedly painted this train so that it's a stealth operation. it now looks just like a regular russian airways train except you canai tell it's the special put train because it has two extra axles to deal with all the extra weight because it is heavily armored, and also all the other trains has to move and get out of its way because it doesn't stop at any stations. you can find that report tonight

at meduzaio. they're still piecing it together under every threat. as every single news organization has been shutdown or forced out of that country. this is the authoritarian play book, right? you can't have total dictatorial control of a country as long as that country still has, you know, an independent source of fact or information or perspective or god forbid scrutiny or criticism of the leader. if you're going to have a unitary control of a country you must get rid of the free press. it is a systematic thing for authoritarians, and it is the same for them everywhere. remember the nobel peace prize a couple years ago went to two people who didn't know each even though they do the same type of work in two parts of the world. it went to an editor from russia on the right and editor from the

philippines. these two shared the nobel peace prize in 2021. by 2022 her news organization was ordered shutdown by the duterte administration. personally was sentenced to prison in the philippines. the action was even quicker in russia. again, this is the editor of the philippines xt and that russian entity sharing that nobel peace prize in 2021. by march 2022 his russian news organization was forced out of russia. that was in march 2022, in april 2022 he was attacked physically on a train. the u.s. government said it was the work of russian intelligence. he then put his nobel peace prize medal up for auction with the proceeds to benefit ukrainian refugees from the war. he raised over $100 million

doing that. but attacking the press, attacking any source of information, of expertise, authority, anything that can rationally offer an authoritative credible perspective other than that of the dear leader, you've got to get rid of that, that's the play. book. and i think it's much easier for us to see it far away than see it close up, particularly when you can see it happening not just in one other country, you can see it happening basically the same way in a bunch of different countries where the only thingie those countries ha in common is they have authoritarian leaders. you see attack ones the press in russia under an authoritarian leader and also see it in hungary, the way their leader victor orban did it is he got his party and oligarchs hosted

him to forcibly take over ownership of about 80% of the media, 80% of the entire media landscape in the nation of hungary. then the remaining 20%, the remaining independent press they didn't outright own, they started just arbitrarily revoking the license of those entities to operate. victor organ in hungary just like vladimir putin in russia, her also led his country into full-blown moral panic about gay people andan trans people in. and in both countries they use that in particular as a way to not just hurt and scapegoat queer people, they used it as a way to consolidate yet more control over theso media and ov schools at all levels. in orban's case he then led a moral panic about schools themselves, declaring war on the

once prestigious internationally aflute graduate school in hungary. central european university is very important in hungary. it had an important publishing house, an important library, a highly ranked law school. victor orban couldn't stand that. he demonized that. he forced that university out of hungary all together in 2019. this past year he took control of 11 more universities. and then after making -- eating his way through the media just like putin he then ate the judiciary, too. orbany, forced out judges in hu numbers and then appointed all their replacements and then he just created a whole new court system in which he appointed everyone in it, and they all report to him including him deciding which cases go to which judges on an individual level by

his own say so. once he got complete control of the judiciary, he wrote himself a new constitution in which he gaveon himself the power to do l things that had been previously struck down as unconstitutional when his country used to have real u courts. it is -- it is easier to see it, it is easier for us as americans to see these patterns when they're farther away, right? when we can see them in happening in other countries particularly c simultaneously i different countries all run by authoritarian leaders. and the patterns aren't that hard to discerne because you s the same ones in history as you see in modern life. authoritarian rule is pretty simple thing. basic idea of authoritarian rule is i'm in charge, no one gets a say. if that's g your goal your road map g basically only has one ro on it, set about making sure no one else has m a say.

set about undermining and dis-empowering any other institution, anyer other entity that might challenge you or tell the truth about what you're doing. undermine it, dis-empower it, takepo it over, shut it down, ultimately kill it off. it's the same pattern over where. it'sam the same playbook everywhere, and that is why it is , unnerving to see elements the american right going for it in the small ways where they can, too. they can't do it federally, but they're doing it in the states wherever they can, right? i mean what's called central european university in victor orban's hungary might recently be called the new college of florida here inth the united states where the ambitious hard-right republican guv inenoughig of that state moved quickly about stoking a panic aboutin gay people and trans people to asserting

ideological control of education broadly and then demonize and taking overd one scapegoat college in police car. you might also see some of this at work just today in west virginia. npr reported on how republican governor jim justice in west virginia has declared war on west virginia public broadcasting, which is increasingly important as a news source in west virginia particularly as the news business has led to the collapse of local news gathering operations. but at west virginia public broadcasting jim justice has decided that's got to go, too, so he's gotten rid of the professional leadership, he installed his own communications director as thest new ceo and n they've started firing reporters who have reported on scandals and failures in government justice's information. i could describe that west virginia situation as a scandal. i think for most americans whose value the idea of a free and

independent press it would be seen as ape scandal, but just watch at what jim justice is doing with the media in west virginia. if that i starts getting nation attention just watch, other republican governors will see what he's doing andov try to emulate it themselves because this is what's in style right now on the american far-right. it is a race to outdo each other with this stuff. and we know where it ends. we've seen this playbook lots of different places. we can is all around the world. and in that spirit there is just i think one more dot to put on this map today from today's news. it's here today in israel of all places. very large-scale aggressive but peaceful reprotests today in israel. we have seen these recently in tel aviv.y now we're also seeing them in jerusalem, which is also much more unusual. and honestly as lot of the signage and everything you see

there is in hebrew for obvious reasons, butor if you look at y can see in english these are pretty dramatic message. you see for example this on handmade signs and t-shirts, not prime minister but crime minister. this banner at one of the demonstrations in del avive, see the big banner in the background there? no one is above the law. this sign, help, our democracy has been kidnapped by criminals. this one has a lighter tone but much more to the point, israel goes bananas. this one kind of puts your heart in your throat. with our souls and our blood we will defend our democracy and he identifies himself asr a holocaust survivor. these protests in israel today are because the far right leader there has just proposed effectively that he's going to take over the judiciary. he says the courts in his country are in his words, quote,

out of w control and the courts need to be controlled. and so his party is now advancing legislation in which he will control the courts, just like victor orban did in hungary because of course an independent judiciary is just as important to a democracy as it is anathema to a leader with authoritarian designs. now, the personal ancontext her inna israel is that the prime minister who's trying to do this is personally facing serious corruption charges in courts, so of course he thinks the courts are out of control and they must be brought under his purview. that's also why you see the protests saying things like crime minister and no one is aboveni the law. they see the authoritarian would-be leader of israel, that's their accusation, they see him as essentially moving to get rid of the independent judiciary in that country both

to consailidate his own power and to save himself from his own legal liability. putting that pillar of democracy on the chopping block both because he wishes to put it on the chopping block but because it serves him personally in a short-term and transactional way. that's what's led allra the protests. that's what's led to the accusations of authoritarianism from that leader of israel. again, i think it's easy to see how similar they look between all these other countries as they, you know, slough off democracy one after the other with or without a fight in the streets. but it's also for us at home i think it is worth us watching it in other countries to learn the pattern but also to recognize the signs that we're not immune. and so here's what we're going to talk about tonight about what may be around the corner for us in this country because in this

country our most prominent far-right leader has been, of course,ad subjected to multiple criminal and counter intelligence investigations by the fbi and the u.s. justice department. and so we have seen and we have goggled over the past several years as he started waging and then escalated and escalated further his attacks on the justice department and the fbi in particular to the point where not just him but his party now considers the fbi to be effectively an enemy, and they attack it at every turn, and they're talking about defunding the fbi and talk about wanting itsin leaders to be arrested. that has been amazing enough for something to happen in american politics. still almost feels like something we're watching in another country. these trump maga attacks on justice department, fbi, and other departments. as trump has been under investigation by the fbi and justice department he has trained his sights on the fbi and justice department.

but where is that going? because we now know that three days from now on thursday of this week former president and current presidential candidate donald trump as of thursday this week is likely to understand that he's noli longer just faci scrutiny and investigation from law enforcement agencies, he is likely -- not certain, but likely to find out this week that he's about to be under court b scrutiny as well. today a judge in georgia announced that the special grand juryd investigating trump's efforts to stay in power after losing re-election in 2020, the report on the special grand jury's investigation into that matter which is meant to inform the prosecutor's decisions about seeking indictments in that case, that grand jury report is about to be partially unsealed for the public. and we're going to talk about the details of that in just a minute because they're important. but the bottom line isnu a big picture story for our democracy.

i mean trump may not find himself being charged in georgia just as he may not find himself being charged in new york state where a grand jury is investigating him as well. he may not find himself being charged in federald court in washington where multipleer gra juries are investigating him now, too. it's possible he won't face charges in any of these places, right? but if he is that process of us adjusting to that as a democracy is about to start now because the first grand jury we're going to hear from substantively is the one in georgia and going to hear from them this week. if youth thought it was a bad lk for the american version of these guys to be attacking the press what's around the corner as a democracy if he is indicted? what's around the corner for us if he ise indicted is an attac on the specific system that now poses the threat to him, the

specific system that holds the powerte to indict him, to potentially arrest him, to put him in court, to put him on trail. what do you do when the court compels you to do something indo you attack that system with the same vuhemmance and with the same willingness to burn down one of the pillars of our democracy? i mean all around the world we know what itun looks like when far-right leaders try to disassemble those kinds of systems in order to assert and maintain power for themselves. we've never had to contend with that here. we have a lot to learn quickly how to shore those things up. stay with us tonight. we've got lots to come. stay witt we've got lots to come

we have a simple and powerful concept in the court. prosecutors are not to air accusations against anyone without giving the accused person the opportunity to refute the allegations and defend themselves. it's a pillar of american justice, that is due process. that is innocent until proven guilty. that is fair play. and in fulton county, georgia, the district attorney there cited that need to be fair to any future defendants when she told a judge last month that she did not want released to the

public a special grand jury's report on its investigation into 2020 election interference by donald trump and his associates. district attorney willis was basically saying i know there is this grand jury report, i know that special grand jury said they want their report released to the public, but i say, no, don't do it, don't give it to the public. she's basically saying wait for me to file indictments in the court or not. let allegations be aired that way against people who will then be given a fair shot to defend themselves in court, otherwise we should keep them secret. well, today we know the judge hearing this case agreed with her argument in part. the judge in the case ruled against releasing the full grand jury report at this juncture, except he decided he does want to release three sections of it, the introduction, the conclusion, and this other part which is interesting and sort of

unexpected. it's what he describes as the part of the grand jury's report in which the grand jury expresses its concerns about witnesses potentially lying to them under oath. the judge says that section can be released because it doesn't name individual names of people who the grand jury is accusing of lying. the judge says in his ruling, quote, because the grand jury does not identify those witnesses that conclusion may be publicly disclosed at this time. but two bottom lines from this judge's ruling today. first, material from this report at least the introduction, the conclusion, and this part about people lying under oath, it's going to be coming occupy to the public as of thursday this week. and secondly we know this also from judge's ruling it does seem crystal clear from his wording today that the grand jury has recommended that people should be indicted under georgia state law in this case. this again from the judge's order today.

quote, the final report provided the district attorney with exactly what she requested, a roster of who should or should not be indicted for what in relation to the conduct and aftermath of the 2020 general election in georgia. joining us now is gwen, a former district attorney in georgia. she coauthored the report that said the it left him quote at substantial risk of multiple crimes. nice to see you. >> same here. thank you. >> so district attorney faunae willis is not appealing the judge's ruling. she put out a statement today that sounded like she agrees with it. that means with her not appealing it, to the media organizations who asked for it to be made public, with them not appealing it to looks like this will happen on thursday. what stands out to you about

that? what should we understand as important about that? >> well, i think first and foremost it's clear the judge threaded the legal needle. he balanced the public's desire and the media's desire to have public disclosure, the district attorney's desire to maintain any disclosures and protecting the due process rights of any possible named defendants which then enables this disclosure issue to ensure that the entire investigative and possible trial process maintains the integrity that is required in the criminal justice system. >> how do you calibrate -- how do you think about the pressure on the outside of this case bearing in on it? obviously one thing that is unusual about this case compared

to a sort of normal criminal case in the normal course of things in georgia is that, you know, on thursday when this report comes out there's going to be not just georgia, not just national but international attention to what this special grand jury has concluded with everybody and their mother speculating as to what it's going to mean in terms of potential charges for a former president, which is something we've never had before in this country. you've been the district attorney, you've dealt with high profile cases, you know something of faunae willis and how she operates. what do you think about that pressure, that attention on this process going forward? >> well, i think, again, faunae is a seasoned professional. she like all of us and myself included at the time took an oath to investigate matters and make decisions as it relates to possible crimes in the state of georgia without fear, favor, or affection. and that means that i think she

will be able to withstand whatever sort of external pressure because she's focused on her case, her team is focused on her case. they're looking at all the facts. they have left no stone unturned, and i think that's her main focus. she's not going to get caught up in what is happening outside her charging decision. she's obviously aware and made decisions in the past, again, to protect the integrity of her case such as suspending her investigation while the elections were going on last year, but she's laser focused and ensuring if and when she makes decisions to charge defendants or present indictments that she's going to have her evidence, she knows and understands the law, and her team is ready to go forward. >> gwen keys flemming, thank you so much for your time tonight. i have a feeling we'll be

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at msnbc world headquarters with a breaking news update on a story we've been following all night, three people are dead after a mass shooting at michigan state university. police say five others are injured, some of the wounds are life threatening. gunfire was first reported on the campus just after 8:00 p.m. eastern. police say an hours long manhunt ended after the gunman fatally shot himself after being confronted by police. investigators believe the single shooter is responsible for violence at two locations on campus that sent terrified students running for their lives. and after a four-hour lock down police shared these photos of the suspected gunman who they only identified as a 43-year-old

who has no affiliation with the university at this point. and just after midnight officials announced the suspect had been found off-campus and was deceased. >> the suspect in this incident was located outside of the msu campus, and it does appear that that suspect has died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. this truly has been a nightmare that we are living tonight. >> the shelter in place order has since been lifted, and authorities believe there is no longer a threat to the campus. state and federal agencies are investigating, and there are multiple crime scenes being processed. michigan state university has canceled all campus activities including athletics and classes for the next two days, and resources will be available for students and faculty after the unimaginable violence. >> i was talking to one of my best friends yesterday. we were dropping off my partner

and talking about how school shootings are still an issue and how everyone thinks we left it in high school, and never did i think this would happen directly the next day. >> michigan governor gretchen whitmer reacting to the shootings calling this a uniquely american problem, saying in part we cannot accept living like this any longer. and she goes onto say, this is a uniquely american problem. too many of us scan rooms for exits, we plan, we cannot and should not accept living like this. keep it to here for more on msnbc's continuing coverage. i'm frances rivera. coverage. i'm frances rivera r a great low, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage- go with the general.

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number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. so it keeps happening. a u.s. military f-16 this time shot down an object over lake heron in michigan. apparently came down on the canadian side of the lake but they shot it down over michigan. if you're keeping score at home

this is the fourth object shot down by the u.s. military in the last eight daysch the first of course was the big chinese surveillance balloon that drifted across a big portion of the continental yooubs before it was shot down off the coast of south carolina. but u.s. officials say the three objects since then are smaller than the first balloon but they were also flying much lower than the first balloon which at least theoretically opens up the possibility that commercial airlines could have flen into them. and if you're looking for a pretext to justify shooting them down that seems as good as any. the three latest objects to be shot down u.s. officials are not yet saying what they are. we don't even know what the right noun is to describe them. object seems a little vague. they're calling the one from yesterday an octagonal structure. aren't these things all balloons? if they're not all balloons are they all any one thing or are they all different from each

other? the u.s. government has now con23r78ds as of today china has been operating a high altitude surveillance balloon program since the trump administration. they're saying it was happening during the trump administration, but the trump administration didn't notice it. they have since discovered it during the biden administration. it's a program by which china flies balloons over dozens of countries across multiple continents. but that said they're still not saying and we don't know if they've determined if the latest three things that got shot down also belong to china and whether or not they were balloons. do other countries have balloon surveillance programs? what could these things be if they're not balloons? do we have balloon surveillance programs? and are there rules for shooting these things down? are we effectively setting the international rules for shooting these things down by setting a new four-object precedent for shooting them down over or near

the united states? joining us now is connecticut congressman jim hines. he's the highest ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee. he's therefore a member of the gang of eight, which means he gets briefed regularly on very sensitive classified intelligence matters, which he can't talk about with us at all. nevertheless, i look forward to talking about this with you tonight. thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me, rachel. >> i know you can't talk about anything classified of which you've been brief. that said can you help me answer any of those questions which i just asked? can you help us understand whether those are known things the u.s. government isn't sharing answers with us about or whether the u.s. government is equally in the dark as the rest of us? >> yeah, rachel, let me take a snap at that. i don't have to be quite as precise as say a general who's in charge of norad has to be. based on what i've heard from

the government and this is speckumentive lut informed speculation these are inially likelihood balloons. and balloons are not hard to put up there. any nation state does put up weather balloons. what's happening now there's a lot to talk about with china. they put up a surveillance balloon. we recalibrated our eyes and ears to look for something wave never looked for throughout the continent and guess what now we're seeing a lot of the stuff. to your question about should we always be shooting them down, i take the white house at their word when they say they spend a lot of time flying around these things to determine they're not a danger, they do worry about the incursion into airspace. i do ask you to reflect how many

airliners have been brought down by a balloon in recent memory and we probably need a better policy than spending millions of dollars on a kinetic attack on a balloon and deploying resources on those balloons. >> is it possible that some of these -- one or more of these recently shot down items was not something launched by a nation state but might have been a commercial thing that didn't know it might be sort of straying into word geopolitical waters between us and china because of that initial surveillance balloon last week? >> yeah, it absolutely could be. again, i'm no expert in this area but any number of companies are experimenting in how you can use balloons to provide video surveillance, howl you can use balloons to provide temp rar bandwidth, as i was saying maybe wi-fi through a rural area. and by the way though this is

little less likely this things aren't expensive. that's why the chinese might be thinking about a balloon as a surveillance tool. satellite you're talking hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars. a balloon is really, eely cheap and that means not just nation states but corporations and a even a bunch of people willing a put a couple thousand dollars into a big metallic bag filled with helium can operate one of these things. >> what do you think congress about sort of what the government owes us or what they ought to explain to us? you said you'd like there to be more transparency with the public about what's going on here. how do you think they should handle this in terms of communicating to us, letting us know what they know, and indeed what they should decide about sort of future policymaking around perceived threats or perceived incursions like this. >> at the end of this whole experience and do hope three

weeks from now we're not shooting down or talking about balloons. based on the previews i've had i think they've made good decisions on the way. but i would suggest to the white house you want to tell us about a balloon coming in before some guy on the back of a horse in montana looks up and sees it or in the case of john kirby losing track of the second or third balloon you ought to not be asked by a reporter in order to talk about one these balloons. because guess what, a guy on horseback can see them. and we need to develop a process if i'm right, but there's a lot of stuff floating up out there. we better have a smart policy for addressing that stuff. if it is a legitimate threat to civil aviation, and i'd like to think about how many airliners have been brought down by balloons. it may plot be us but eventually

somebody is going to make a bad mistake and shoot something down full of people or whatever. >> congressman jim himes, the ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee, a man who knows of what he speaks maybe as much as anybody does on this subject, thanks for making time to be here with us tonight. i appreciate it. >> thank you. here with us toni. i appreciate it. >> thank you ♪

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