hi, everybody, it is 4:00 in new york, i'm in today for nicolle wallace. it feels hopelessly routine. it is a uniquely american disgrace. not just that we are coming on the air prepared to talk about a deadly school shooting, five years to the day after the horrors of parkland. but crueller still, we appear to be running out of days on the calendar that do not coincide with one mass shooting or another. and this time, it happened at two separate locations at michigan state university. the shelter in place email went out 8:31 p.m., quote, run, hide, fight. in that order. and hours later, following a manhunt for the shooter, three students dead, five critically injured and the shooter found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound. now, police aren't sure of his motive just yet, but they are suggesting he had a history of mental health issues and had been previously charged with

gun-related crimes. this was the 67th mass shooting in the united states this year. and we're only 45 days into it. listen to the way one young woman described herd experience to "the today show." she had to jump out of a broke inwin window to exescape. >> at that moment, i thought i was going to die. i will never forget the screams of my classmates, they were, like, screaming in pain, for help. >> the three victims of the shooting have now been identified. they are brian frazier, as of morp at michigan state university. 19-year-old ariel anderson, also as of morp at msu, who aspired to be a pediatrician. and alex verner,. again, one of the most painful parts about days like this is

how agonizingly familiar they have become to all of us. that sense of dread, keenly felt in east lansing this morning. >> we're all broken by an all too familiar feeling. another place that is supposed to be about community and togetherness, shattered by bullets and bloodshed. >> i am filled with rage that we have to have another press conference to talk about our children being killed in their schools. and i would say that you either care about protecting kids or you don't. >> what happened in michigan is the latest extension of catastrophic span in american history. according to nbc news, 104 people have been killed in shootings on campuses since 2013. that is to say nothing of gun violence at churches, at hospitals, at stores, at clubs, practically every public venue in our american way of life. shootings in this country so

ubiquitous that some poor souls have experienced more than one. jackie matthews is a senior at michigan state, a little more than a decade after she sheltered in place at sandy hook elementary. she posted this video on tiktok. >> the fact that this is the second mass shooting that i have now lived through is incomprehensible. my heart goes out to all the families and the friends of the victims of this michigan state shooting. but we can no longer just provide love and prayers. there needs to be legislation, there needs to be action, it's not okay. we can no longer allow this to happen. we can no longer be complacent. i'll forever be sandy hook strong and forever be spartan strong. >> a seemingly out of control epidemic of gun violence is where we begin our coverage today. senator chris murphy of connecticut will join us, but with us now, frank figliuzzi,

plus tim miller and kim atkinstore. frank, i'll start with you, and the investigation. tell us a little bit about the law enforcement response here. one of the things that jumped out to me and we understand that the fbi is involved, any idea what that is about this this moment? >> so, at first, it's all hands on deck and that was why we saw just the swarm of law enforcement to establish a perimeter, clear buildings, evacuate buildings, but the fbi also gets involved in a number of other ways. first, to determine if there is a federal terrorism nexus to this, which appears there is not. no indication of that. and all of the support that comes along the investigative services component of things. so, actually mapping out with computer design the actual crime scene, so it is determining trajection of bullets, all of that. and then the deep dive into

forensics, any devices the shooter had. the i.t. cyber side of things. what was he looking up? what had he been doing. and reports today that he may have had a letter in his trousers that related to a threat against a school system in new jersey, that's interstate situation, the fbi will help with that. but they're in a support mode right now. and of course, they'll all be involved in interviews and more interviews that try to get to the heart of the big question, why? but i'm going to try to level set here for people. over the course of my career, i've had to try to answer the question why with regard to death and violence and when i confront subjects and they try to explain the logic in their head -- it's not logic. it won't make sense. and this may not make sense to anybody but the deceased shooter. >> kim, i think you spoke for a lot of us today when you simply put it -- sick and tired of being sick and tired. and i think, you know, that is the problem that we are seeing in this country.

it is getting a whole lot worse, day after day. >> i think that's exactly right. and what is so difficult about this is, we know what will work. we know that the united states is different from other countries, where this thing doesn't happen, is because we don't have -- we have the kind of gun sul sure culture that other countries don't have, and there's also this starch opposition -- staunch opposition from the gun lobb and the weapons lobby that prevents reasonable gun control measures from going into place that can save lives. we know that keeping guns out of the hands of people that should not happen, like this person, will save lives, but lawmakers, not just republicans, but even democrats in some swing states and swing districts, just find it impossible to avoid the push-back, the pressure from the gun lobby to prevent these laws from going into place. and this keeps happening again

and again. i just don't know, after all of this, what it will take to actually get people to change the way they think about guns in this country. >> let me play for you, tim, and everyone else and our viewers, what president biden said earlier today about this shooting. watch. >> last night, i spoke with governor whitmer and the fbi and additional federal law enforcement are on the ground assisting the state and local folks and three lives have been lost, five seriously injured. and it's a family's worth nightmare that's happening far too often in this country. far too often. while we gather more information, there's one thing we do know to be true -- we have to do something to stop gun violence ripping apart our communities. ripping them apart. >> we have to do something to stop our communities from being ripped apart. what specifically, tim, do you think the president can do here? the road through congress is probably harold, if not impossible.

what could he do? >> well, i'm not really sure he can do anything, unfortunately, i hate to be so -- offer so little hope on yet another time coming onto the show to discuss a mass shooting. but ahead of 2024, i think this is once again an opportunity for the democrats, because it is mostly democrats, to use this as an issue to push electorally. and i think the politics on this have changed over the past two decades of these shootings. maybe not changed as much as we've wanted, but it has changed quite a bit, and i think that joe biden deserves credit for signing the first bipartisan gun law since the '90s last year. chris murphy, i'm sure when he comes on, will talk about that, he was a big part of getting that done. but i interviewed chris murphy about it and he'll even say, i'm sure when he comes on, it wasn't enough. it's good, it's progress, we

shouldn't not make progress where we can on the edges, but if you're not going to be able to take -- to put in place, you know, things that get guns out of the hands of these shooters, then what are you going to do? one thing i talked to senator murphy about, for example, is can we ban people under 21, i would say under 25, but hey, let's start with under 21, from having ar-15s. they are banned from having hand guns in this country, but not banned from having assault rifles that are being used in almost all of these mass shootings. that seems like a winning political issue for democrats, that's a 15% issue of the most insane people in the republican primary who want 19-year-olds to be able to go online and buy an ar-15. so, i think that would be a place that you can start to kind of roll this back. but it's a long road. you know, last night, i just went to look up to see -- there are 30 states right now where you can open carry without a license or would a permit. so, that just shows you how

daunting the task is. but i think looking at some of the extremely popular things that were not in the last gun bill, you know, ages for assault rifles, license and permitting requirements, it feels like small ball, but you know, something has to be done and ult's better to make progress along the edges than to do nothing. >> frank, people are sometimes surprised to hear that law enforcement are some of the most, biggest proponents of some kind of meaningful reform when it comes to gun legislation in this country, just because of the fact, they are on the very tip of the spear of having to deal with mass shootings. and we see it time and time again, and yet nothing gets done. why do you think there is such a rejection in this country politically and legislaively to do something that across the spectrum people want to see done? >> right, you have -- you have professional law enforcement organizations and leaders saying emphatically, they want less guns on the street. they want more ability toll

control who gets guns in terms of past felons, mental health issues, yet politicians ignore them. it happened in texas. september 1st in texas, we had the change in the law that allowed no permit, no license, the largest police association in the state of texas came out openly and said, we don't like it, it's going to endanger officers lives, it happened anyway. the vast majority of the american public wants gun laws enforced, wants something to happen about gun violence, that gets ignored, and why is that? it comes down, as often the case to money. the nra and lobbyists and donations to politicians who feel be-holden to them, but not to the constituents that elected them. until that dynamic changes, we're not going to see significant mitigation of the violent threat. there are things states can do. red flag laws do work. michigan does not have a red flag law, so, hypothetically, if

this shooter's father was as concerned as he says he was about his son, locking himself in a room and shooting target practice out the back door, possibly -- possibly a red flag law in michigan might have allowed police to temporarily seize that weapon. we also need to enforce existing laws. most cops just want to be able to do that, yet this guy, we know, was a -- someone who had a gun charge the on him and could not have possessed lawfully or purchased a gun in michigan, yet his father says he, quote, bought a gun. we don't know if he bought it at a shop with a background check or bought it stolen on the street, we'll have to figure that out. we have to start training our population to understanding warning signs and indicators of gun violence and do something on that side of the house. >> yeah, absolutely incredible. frank, thank you so much. kim and tim, please stick around. we're going to continue this conversation a little bit later, but i do want to bring into this conversation democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut. senator, it's good to have you with us, i hate to say that it

is for this occasion. i know that you visited michigan state university just back in october and you met with students who had formed a march for our lives chapter on that campus. now that community, sadly, joins the list of schools struck by tragedy. so, just, for starters, tell me your thoughts on what happened last night and the state of our country right now, sir. >> so, in connecticut, we, you know, know a version of what michigan state is going through right now you sandy hook is a pretty amazing community, a community that, in many ways, has come back, but a communities that in many ways will never, ever be the same. i just don't you can really articulate the trauma that just sticks around, never goes away, in a community that's been impacted by a mass shooting. all that being said, i don't buy this narrative that we can't do anything about it, or that we haven't done anything about it. the fact of the matter is, since sandy hook, we've passed 525

laws at the federal level, the state level, that have made our communities safer. now, we're in a race, because there are more guns, more illegal guns, more assault weapons out there than ever before, but i am absolutely certain that the law that we passed last year, the first gun safety measure passed by congress in 30 years, is as we speak saving lives. and coincidentally, today, the federal government announced a series of grants to states who want to use federal resources to implement red flag laws. michigan will get millions of dollars toll implement a red flag law if they choose to pass it. and what we know is the states that have these laws, they save lives. florida, a red state, has a red flag law. they've used it 5,000 times. most of the time, those are stopping suicides, but sometimes they're stopping mass shootings, as well. so, we know these laws work. we've passed federal legislation to guarantee states are going to have the resources to implement

these laws, if they choose to put them on the books, and my hope is that the students that i met with last fall at michigan state university are going to have a lot more recruits to join their chapter of students and in action, or march for our lives, and they are going to demand the state capitol responds to this tragedy, but frankly, the epidemic that exists every single day in michigan, dozens of people losing their lives from guns. >> let me play for you and our viewers something that the michigan attorney general said just earlier, to my colleague chris jansing, on this network. she has two sons at michigan state. watch. >> i couldn't even make it through their sophomore year would an incident like this happening. i'm the top law enforcement official in this state. what, you know, what do any of us have, what hope do we have as parents if we don't have legislators who are willing to actually do something to protect our children? we have to start loving our kids

more than we love our guns. >> all right, so, you just outlined the 500 plus laws that have been passed that have made a difference or are making a difference, but what do we need more of right now? where can we see some areas improved so that we don't have to hear the attorney general say that, effectively, what sounds like she's hopeless. >> well, obviously the holy grail here is a national criminal background check system and a ban on assault weapons, chl tend to be the weapon of choice for mass killers because they are just much more effective as killing as many human beings as quickly as possible, that is what they are designed for. and i think as we're learning more about this shooting, it may be that this individual shouldn't have been able to purchase a weapon, but did. there are plenty of mass shooters, plenty of perpetrators of homicides who are prohibited by federal law from getting a weapon, but they get it through

the black market because there are so many weapons being sold out there. get to the black market because of a lack of background checks at gun stores -- excuse me, at gun shows and through online sales. so, a federal, mandatory comprehensive background check law, which, by the way, is supported by 90% of americans, is probably the most important thing we can do to stop both mass shootings, maybe like this one, and the every day gun violence that we see in cities across this country. again, that's a really popular endeavor and i just think if republicans continue to oppose it and vote against it, they are going to increasingly lose elections. >> you have spoken about it and written at length about the epidemic of loneliness in this country. how do you see that overlapping with the gun epidemic and the mass shooting violence that we see, like the one that we saw last night? >> so, it is true that more people today feel deeply lonely than ever before. and in particular, this is a problem amongst young people.

right now, 60% of teenagers feel very alone. and it is true that oftentimes, when you mix together loneliness with grievance or grudge, which tends to be felt a little bit moreso by young men, the result can be violence. but i don't think it's right to explain america's gun violence epidemic through the prism of loneliness, because loneliness doesn't exist only in the united states, just like mental illness. that emotion exists in every other high income nation. it's just in those countries, people that are sort of feeling a combination of loneliness and grievance and want to take out their frustration in violence don't have access to any weapons of mass destruction. only in this country can you be feeling really terrible about yourself, contemplate some act of violence as your brain is breaking, and within 24 hours, get your hands on a military-style assault weapon that allows you to kill 30 people in five minutes. so, to me, yes, we should attack

this issue of loneliness. i've written extensively about it, i think it's good for the mental health of our nation, but we shouldn't expect that if we fix the epidemic of loneliness we are going to fix the problem of gun violence. >> senator chris murphy, greatly appreciate your time and your insights on this. as i said, we wanted to talk to you about the anniversary of parkland, yet here we are talking about yet another mass shooting, this one at michigan state. thank you so much for your time, sir. kim, tim, please stick around, we're going to continue the conversation when we come back. growing fears of an environmental catastrophe in the wake of a train derailment that has released toxic fumes in east palestine, ohio. many residents there fearful of returns to their homes, as people and their pelts are getting sick. plus, we're going to turn to politics. donald trump has an official challenger for the 2024 republican nomination. his former u.n. ambassador, nikki haley. we're going to talk about that. and later on in the program, the justice department may soon have a major legal fight on its hands. former vice president mike pence plans to challenge a subpoena

from special counsel jack smith. all those stories and a whole lot more when "deadline white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere. tinues after . don't go

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♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. i've got a lot of concerns for the impact of the people locally, what it's going to look like, not only now, but in the future. >> as she comes outside and plays in the summer, i definitely have a right to know what was on that train, you know, to see the manifest, to know what chemicals are in the creek, and also how much. they put thousands of gallons of water on that fire with city lake right there, you know, they've admitted it's in the streams, how much? >> my video camera footage shows

my chickens were perfectly fine before they started the burn. and my chickens slowed down and it died. if it can do this to chickens in one night, imagine what it's going to do to us in 20 years. >> we basically nuked a town with chemicals so we could get a rail road open. >> residents of east palestine, ohio, on their fears for health and safety after a train derailment forced people to evacuate their homes. the chemicals can cause side effects including burning and irritation of the skin, eyes, nose, and throat. shortness of breath and coughing as well as headache and vomiting. >> and the effects of the crash have left residents demanding answers and suspicious by claims of state and local authorities that it is in fact safe to return. a town hall is scheduled tomorrow for east palestine residents demanding answers. joining us now is prim tucker, breaking news associate writer

with the new republic who has reported on the situation there in east palestine, and dr. blackstock, an msnbc medical contributor. dr. blackstock, i would like to start with you. tell us about the discovery of these new chemicals. should residents of east palestine and the surrounding areas be concerned at this moment? >> thank you so much for having me on today. so, you know, i you this it's important for people to realize that the immediate threat was that these chemicals would come bust and cause a fire, but now, we are concerned about the more long-term threat. we know that several of these chemicals are car sin jens. there is one that when it come busts can produce hydrogen chloride and another gas that is quite toxic. and it can end up causing rare types of liver cancer, blood cancers, and lung cancers. so, i think that, you know, those residents are quite right in that we are concerned about

what's going to happen in the long-term, that they need to be aware of the symptoms that they're having right now that you mentioned, so, skin, eyes, lung irritation, but also more longer term, some other more concerning symptoms that could be linked to cancers further down the road. >> prim, you've been doing some incredible reporting there on the ground. talk to us about the stories you have heard from the residents about what they have experienced, what they are most afraid of right now. >> thank you, ayman. appreciate being here. and, you know, to this point, it's just remarkable that all these people are being assured that it's safe to come home, things seem to be okay, but so many people, beyond just coincidence or patterns, have shown that it's not necessarily true that it's safe. i recall one woman i talked to who just an unbelievably unfortunate story of her 2-year-old cat who after the derailment was just motionless, her heart was racing, her breathing was labored and, you

know, he remained that way overnight and was found with congestive heart failure. and this was definitely something that the vet narn assumed was likely linked to the derailment. and they had to put her down, because she couldn't afford to keep treating her and the company didn't support her in time. other folks have mentioned skin rashes, constant headaches, sore throats, burning sensations. too many to fully believe that it's safe yet for these residents. >> dr. blackstock, how value lid are these concerns that there could be contaminates lingering in the soil, lingering in the water, that could, you know, really impact the areas for years to come? because there was an norfolk southern spokesperson has admitted that it is hard to tell what was burned off and what went into the soil.

>> oh, absolutely, ayman. those residents' concerns are incredibly valid. we know that those gases, when they dissipate, could have gone, you know, or are hanging around in the air, and that's affeced bun sunlight and wind. we know it's probably absorbed into the soil, we know that it is probably in the groundwater, as well. and so, you know, the concerns are significant. you know, we could be looking at one of the most catastrophic environmental disasters in the u.s. and the residents are saying that both -- the ohio e.p.a. is saying that the air and water quality are within normal values and that it is safe to return home, but if people are saying that they're having these variety of symptoms, then obviously it is not safe yet. so, it's not safe in the short-term and not safe in the long-term, and we know that what will be important is it's going to be constant and continuous monitoring of the air, of the

soil, of the water, in these communities, to ensure that it's safe. we know the evacuation order, i believe, was only for a few days and people were allowed to return. for those who haven't returned, i definitely understand their concern about not returning, because of the array of symptoms that residents are already saying they are experiencing, as well as their pets and other animals. >> prem, you know, are we likely to see more disasters like this in the future? you have the pulse on this beat certainly better than i do. there was this report in "the guardian" that says the u.s. transportation department back in 2020 approved a rule to allow rick by if ied natural gas or lng to be shipped via rail with no additional safety regulations and trains can now run 100 or more tanks filled with 30,000 gallons of the substance. largely from shale fields to saltwater ports. and to put that in perspective, just 22 train tank cars filled with lng hold the same amount of

energy as the hiroshima number bomb. and a coalition of environmental groups wrote in comments to regulators opposing this lng rule change back in 2020. the decision was opposed by local leaders, unions, fire departments, and the ntsb, so, what do you think is the big takeaway here? >> yeah, i mean, you're totally right, there's the lng rule for one thing, but i think one bigger picture issue here is that workers have been warning about this for months and months and years. railroad companies have been slowly but surely undergoing this process where they get smaller and smaller work crews from six to five to now often just two, there's a great piece by my colleague tim that gets into this, but the trains get longer, the work staff gets smaller and therefore they're working so much harder to manage these large trains. norfolk southern specifically has undergone this and i think in 2015, 30,000 workers, today,

they have just 19,000. rail workers have reminded us over and over again, none of those workers have guaranteed paid sick leave. another issue here is that this train uses a very antiquated braking system. the american prospect, us, we have done good reporting on that. and not only do they have this braking system, but norfoul southern and many others have lobbied against updating those. there's obama-era rule that required newer, safer electronic systems, but that rule was overturned by president trump and so far, you know, despite trump overturning it, we have a democratic administration right now, and the department of transportation has not indicated they are going to revive that rule, so, unless things change, both in terms of corporate power, in terms of the things workers are asking for, this could happen again and we should take it seriously. >> yeah, we certainly should. prem, thank you for the reporting. dr. blackstock, thank you for your insights and analysis on this. after the break, switching

gears. a candidate who has changed positions on practically every major issue, including whether she would run if donald trump did, jumps into the race for the republican nomination. stay with us.

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trump were also a candidate, telling the ap, quote, i would not run if president trump ran, and i would talk to him about it. that's not the only flip-flop she's made over the course of her career. two days after the horrific shooting at the emanuel ame church in her state. when asked if she would have the confederate flag removed from state house grounds, she said she was, quote, not doing that to the people of my state. here she is, three days later. >> today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will, to say, it's time to move the flag from the capitol grounds. >> five days after the january th insurrection, she told politico, quote, we need to acknowledge he let us down, he went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him and we can't let that ever happen again. fast forward ten months later, she told "the wall street journal" this. there was fraud in the laeblgs,

but i don't think the numbers were so big that it swayed the vote in the wrong direction. we need him in the republican party. i don't want us to go back to the days before trump. we are back with kim at skins stohr and tim miller. tim, haley is polling under 1%, according to a recent manmouth poll. that is three points behind other candidates. what does that say about her candidacy at this point? >> yeah, she is doing a little better than in other polls. but she's looked at skeptically by the maga voter. and here's the thing, about 80%, maybe 85% of the republican primary is going to be people who are maga voters. and i say that to say, they thought trump did a good job on balance. they're more from this nationalist switch in the party than to being, you know, a

globalist party, if you will. and so, they look at nikki haley with deep skepticism for lots of reasons. and so, that leaves her is very small pool from which to swim. the party might look for someone else besides trump, someone like desantis, but it will be in that vein, not in the haley vein. and the other thing, she doesn't even know what her own message is. if you look at this intro video today, just as a prime example, the first sentence is about how she grows up in this city in south carolina that is divided by a railroad track that divides the city by black and white, divides the city by race. and then five seconds later into the video, she attacks the 16 19 project and the george floyd protests and people that said that racism is a structural problem. well, how can the video be both about how you grew up in a racist town and also making fun of people who say racism is a structural problem? she's trying to have it both ways. she's trying to be the maga nationalist and the uniter.

i think that's where she's at right now. >> yeah, and this is a woman who said, you know, america is not racist, but also describes how she experienced discrimination with her family growing up in south carolina, so, to your point. and, you know, kim, mother jones put it like this, saying, haley warns in that video she released today, you should know this about me, i don't put up with bullies. and she did support the guy who, i would say, is a bully. he called for a ban on all muslims entering the country, boasted on tape of sexually assaulted women. the man who reminded her of the forces that unleashed hate on her state in south carolina. and then she went to work for this guy. in a video in which hley promises to stand up to the bullies, she never mentions the one she is running against. er the perhaps the biggest bully of all. talk about the cowardice she's shown talking about donald

trump. >> that's absolutely right. and i associate myself with everything that tim said. this is the problem with candidates who are trying to run away from trump, but till striating to embrace trumpism. it's really hard to do and not look hypocritical. i thought the exact sail thing about the comment she made about race in that video, that was nonsensical. and it's sort of like she wants everyone to forget that as u.n. ambassador, she not only was espousing an embracing what donald trump brought in his administration, but she was carrying that message to other nations throughout the world. she was on and international platform doing it. that's really hard to turn around. but we've seen that do that before. chef was critical of trump before she became apart of his administration. i think there's no place in the republican party for someone who sort of tries to have it both ways, unless you have a senator from utah, that is probably

going to be his last job, because he criticizes trump sometimes and embraced him at other times. that seems to be a dead end in the republican party. i don't know where the party is actually headed and who can speak successfully and oppose trump world for the republican party, but you see the struggle happening in real time right now and i think haley's campaign is a big example of that. >> let me ask you, if i can, kimberly, as we talk about nikki haley jumping into the race, you had somebody say they will not be running, that is california senator dianne feinstein of california. she announced she will be retiring at the end of this term. what do you make of her retirement and how that may impact the race for california -- for the senate seat for democrats? >> i mean, i think that it was expected. i think she has had a long career, people have appreciated that career, but there comes a time when you need to have a generational change. it goes far beyond age or time

that you spend. it's that ideals change and things change. and we have already seen democrats sort of champing at the bit at the potential for that hotly contested race, that will be one of the most -- i know every year, the most expensive senate race in the country, it smashes the record. i think the record will probably be smashed out of california this year for people seeking that. >> kim, tim, thank you both. greatly appreciate it, as as. up next, a guilty plea from one of the men who attacked officer michael fanone on january 6th. stay with us. 6th. stay with us

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as i was swarmed by a violent mob, they ripped off my badge, they grabbed and stripped me of my radio, they seized ammunition that was secured to my body. they began to beat me with their fists and with what felt like hard metal objects. at one point, i came face-to-face with an attacker who repeatedly lunged for me and attempted to remove my firearm. i heard chanting from some in the crowd, "get his gun" and "kill him with his own gun." i was aware enough to recognize i was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm. i was electrocuted again and again and again. with a taser. i'm sure i was screaming but i

don't think i could even hear my own voice. >> all right, so, that was former capitol police officer michael fanone at the first january 6th select committee hearing, speaking about the horrors that he experienced while defending the capitol and our democracy on that day. today, justice for michael fanone. daniel rodriguez, the rioter accused of attacking fanone with his taser plead guilty to four of the eight counts that he was charged with, including conspiracy and inflecting bodily injury on an officer using a dangerous weapon. three of the charges to which rodriguez pleaded guilty carry a maximum of 20 years in prison. joyce vance joins us, a former u.s. attorney, now law professor at the university of alabama and an msnbc contributor. joyce, great to see you again. so, this seemed like a pretty clear case for prosecutors, and according to the indictment in federal court, rodriguez wrote in a group chat with other rioters, quote, omg, i did so much -- and got away.

tell you later. tased the out of the blue. it seems like the bragging is pretty blatant. does this fit into the pattern that we've seen with other january 6th cases? >> so, it does in the sense that many of these defendants convict themselves with their own words, and that's the case here. there's an acknowledgement after the fact in the texts. but there's also a lot of communications here in preparation for january 6th. talking about what they want to do and ultimately traveling to d.c. with things like a taser, not the one he used on officer fanone, a different one, but also other sorts of items that they intended to use that day at the capitol, and so that's, i think, why we see this plea agreement here rather than a trial. >> rodriguez pleaded guilty to conspiracy, obstructing an official proceeding, tampering with documents, and as i mentioned, inflicting bodily injury on an officer using a dangerous weapon. and was also charged with four

additional counts. and i think a lot of people, even though it carries a maximum sentence of 20 years, wonder how much actual jail time he is likely to get. what is your assessment on that? >> right, so, federal sentencing is driven by something called the sentencing guidelines. we have these statutory sentences, which in this case, the most serious charge carries the penalty of no more than 20 years, but in reality, both his conduct and his prior criminal history will be assessed under the sentencing guidelines. he may be in a resulting range that looks at something like perhaps six to eight years. it could go higher, if the government seeks enhancements. it is enhancements. it's a significant amount of time. >> the doj says that more than 985 individuals have been arrested, 500 have pleaded guilty. there's been more than 60 convictions at trial, 394 have been sentenced.

for an investigation this big, how effective do you think doj has been at prosecuting these specific cases? we haven't talked about the big one about the people that planned this yet, but specifically, for the large scale involvement of these protesters. >> and that's obviously the gorilla in the room. doj has done just a tremendous job of going after what in some sets are lower level offenders. the people in the mob that overran the capitol. as this case today demonstrates with mr. rodriguez, these are very serious crimes ask not something really that should be pushed aside. the real question is whether doj will be able to parlay it now through the office of the special counsel and go after those who are most responsible for events on january 6th. it is a massive undertaking. i think doj will be judged through the lens of history as acting very favorably in a very

difficult situation. >> joyce vance returns in the next hour on a pivotal moment in the january 6th investigation. mike pence digging n fighting a a subpoena. we're going to talk to her about that and more. we'll be right back after a quick break. more. we'll be right back after a quick break. ubrelvy helps u fight migraine attacks. u rise to the challenge. u won't clock out. so u bring ubrelvy. it can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within 2 hours... ...without worrying if it's too late or where you are. unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks a protein believed to be a cause of migraine.

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means all of us. so please call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. lomita feed is 101 years old this year and counting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges like a lot of businesses did. i heard about the payroll tax refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. see if your business may qualify. go to getrefunds.com. a landmark moment for the democrats. the senate confirmed president biden's 100th judicial nominee, significantly outpacing donald trump, who had 85 federal

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vote rs for president of the united states are as follows. joseph r. biden jr. of the state of delaware has received 306 votes. donald j. trump has received 232 votes. the announcement of the state of of the vote by the president of the senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected president and vice president of the united states. each for the term beginning on the 20th day of january, 2021. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it was former vice president mike pence's role as president of the senate, which required him to certify the 2020 election results before a joint session of congress on january 6th that had him at the center of a

pressure campaign by the ex-president to overturn the election results and as a target of the ex-president's supporters when they stormed the capitol. now he's attempting to use that role to block a subpoena from special counsel jack smith. nbc news confirming what was first reported by politico. pence's legal team will fight the. s&p on the grounds that the former vice president was acting in it his role as president of the senate during the joint session of congress on january 6th arguing that he should be shielded from having to testify as part of the speech or debit clause that protects legislators from outside scrutiny. the source adds, it's unclear how the clause prevents pence from testifying about conversations before the capitol attack. pence previously defied his request from the january 6th select committee saying the committee had no right to his testimony. the leading of law fair to point out the ri tickness that seems

to be obvious to everyone else except his legal team. so let me get this straight. pence refused to testify before january 6th committee on separation of powers grounds because congress couldn't compel his testimony as veep and he refuses to testify before the grand jury because he's president of the senate. so pence's challenge to the subpoena is not as many anticipated having to do with executive privilege, which former president trump attempted to use multiple times to block the house january 6th committee from obtaining documents. instead, the separation of powers defense political reports could lead to a legal mess for jack smith. that's because the legal question of whether the vice president draws the same speech or debate protections as members of congress remains largely unsettled and scholars say pence raising the issue will certainly force a court to weigh this that

could take months. pence's fight comes as reporting finds jack smith's probe is moving aggressively, and as pence is gearing up for a likely 2024 run for presidency. adam schiff tweeted, in response to pence's fight, this just shows the lengths pence will go to avoud doing his duty in telling truth. what a way to launch a presidential campaign. joining us now is democratic congressman eric swalwell, michael steel and joyce advance is back, former attorney and now law professor at the university of alabama. mikal and joyce are both msnbc contribuors. talk to us about the merits of the speech or debate argument defense that pence wants to use. what does it signal to you about the strategy and could it be effective? >> so i think ben get this is

just right. ultimately, there's not much merit in this argument. and it's very disingenuous. pence in front of the january 6th committee said you can't take my testimony because it would violate separation of power since i work in the executive branch. now he's trying to tell doj you can't take my testimony because it would violate my rule of working in the legislature. ultimately, it's just hypocritical. what it does do is permits pence to at least give the appearance that he's not willing to testify against the former president. there maybe some political benefit in that. ultimately, if pence really has some reason that he does notment to have to testify under oath, perhaps he hopes he can use delay in the courts to drag the process out. >> the interesting thing is that lindsey graham who are is an actual senator and legislator, tried to use this defense to block a subpoena in the fullton

county, georgia, investigation and was unsuccessful. does that set a precedent for the way mike pence's case might play out? >> yes and no. for one thing, pence's role is unique. he's the president of the senate. there's not a the lot of case law that looks at issues in that context. that might cause courts to believe that they have to engage in a briefing process ask fully consider the issues. but the precedent with senator graham is productive because what it tells us is that speech and debate clause doesn't protect everything that someone does just because they happen to be serving in the congress. there's a narrow limited scope, where the protection applies, but beyond that, they can be testified in front of a grand jury. ultimately, perhaps the best outcome if you're jack smith is that you might sit down with the former vice president's lawyers and negotiate the scope of his testimony. that certainly is one option here. but it's also likely that smith is playing heads up ball here.

he appreciate when is he gets to the point where he wants to talk to pence in front of the grand jury, these sort of objections would be interposed and so he's letting that litigation process play itself out beginning now. >> congressman swalwell, as a lawmaker yourself, someone protect by the speech or debate clause, what do you make of this defense by mike pence? do you think it will hold up? >> i look at mike pence refusing to cooperate not as a lawmaker, but as a former prosecutor. i know it's easy to get mired in the executive privilege claim or the speech and debate clause, but how about the do the right thing clause or your country is asking for your help and you raise your hand and say i want to help them. that's what this is about. dozens of cases before juries with the benefit of witnesses who could jam me up for weeks and months on ridiculous legal claims, but most americans when

they witness a crime want to help their government catch the people responsible. so mike pence's book title that he just res leased is called "so help me god." that's what we say at the end of oaths we say. it's to defend our country. and by not standing up and helping his government, he's actually advocating the oath that is the title of his book. i hope he reconsiders this. i think he's better than this. >> michael, you chuckled through that committee, we learned so much about pence's involvement leading up to on january 6th. talk to me about what a critical witness he would be to the special counsel in all this ask why his testimony would matter. >> it's absolutely critical, and he knows it.

he knows what happened. he knows whatecret service was saying to him. he knows the reason why he retuesdayed to get in the car. he knows exactly what these elements are that would round out the rest of the story. so to both joyce's and eric's point, i'm going to break it down politically. he's running for president, and he doesn't want to piss off the trump base. he thinks they are going to actually back him after saying "hang him" two years ago. where do you thi goes? so help me god, okay, that means nothing. it means nothing to any of them. the oath is just words. there's no value in it. and they prove it every time they are asked to step up and say these words mean something to you. they have value because they

have value to the rest of us. we can't get away with half the crap these people get away with. and how they use the rule of law and the judicial system against itself. we can't do that. the very people that stand there and rally behind these fools. can't go into a court and get away with what he's about to try to do. so this is their reality. they know they are playing suckers every day. they are going to say i'm standing here on the principle of defending the position i hold as president of the senate. oh, as vice president, fill in the blank. that's why i chuckled because this is a joke to them. they are using us, they are using the system, and every day they figure out a new, creative way to blow the crap back in our faces. >> to michael steele's point, i

want to take a listen to what mike pence said about his conversations with donald trump. . watch. >> i made my position clear for weeks to him that as vice president i believed i did not have the authority to return or reject electoral votes. when the house convened to count the electoral votes, but there was great tension in the room. at the outset, i remember the president looking at me. he pointed out the window at the crowd gathering off the south lawn. said did you see that crowd? i said, i did. and he said those people love us. and i said, those people love you. he said, that's probably true. and then i locked at him very seriously and i said, can those

people love the constitution. >> so a lot to unpack there. among which an acknowledgment that they had been talking about this for weeks because he said he had spoken to the president about this for weeks. how would those conversations with the former president fit into mike pence's defense. was he acting in a legislative role then or could he be subject to the special counsel's subpoena? >> right, exactly. it's so hard to make sense of all of this. it's exactly why prosecutors are entitled to this testimony. it is clear from statements pence has made and stuff he's written in his book he had a series of conversations with the former president where he talked with him about things that are important to that investigation. something the big picture here we shouldn't walk too tar away

from is what we just saw. we saw mike pence voluntarily talking about events that he's now refusing to testify about under soviet oath if that doesn't highlight the hypocrisy and lack of principle that's at play here as he attempts to come up with constitutional arguments to protect hums from sitting down and testifying under oath, i don't know what this is. pence is trying to decide what questions he will and won't answer. i hope a federal judge will tell him that's not how this works. when you observe a crime in action, when you're a fact witness to a crime, you have to sit down and testify. >> congressman, talk to me a little bit about what michael steele was raising, the political calculation. you talked about the moral calculation that mike pence should take. he's obviously not taking it. he's hiding behind a legal argument. michael steele, elaborated by saying there's a political ambition at play here for mike

pence. what do you think of that? >> michael is absolutely right. he's hitting right on what this is really about, which is mike pence and nikki hailey and all these people who disavowed donald trump and now recognize that trumpism still prevails are trying to rehabilitate themselves to get well, so to speak, with that crowd. as michael knows and i know because i interact with trumpism in my district, across the country, with friends and families who still support the former president, they are never, ever in a million years going to convert to a mike pence vote. it's not going to happen. and that's why if you take a step back as mike pence, think about that greater good. think about that moral obligation to do the greater good. i don't know what blinders he's wearing that he thinks he's going to get back in with them. i have a question for joyce.

i have been years out of practice as a prosecutor. but by mike pence talking about his conversations with donald trump to sell a book, where come from, that's called waiving a privilege. he's talked about something they refused to testify. it seems awfully convenient we want to sell a book he would a talk about it and he's afraid of hurting the former president, he would try to shame himself. >> joyce, the floor is yours. >> i have very much the same reaction to that situation. i don't think the law is as clear under speech and debate clause as it would be if this were attorney/client privilege, but i don't know how you avoid that principle at play. pence is trying to have it both ways and i hope the judiciary will tell him not on our watch. >> congressman, let me come back to you for a moment about the end of last year, which was part of the omnibus spend issing package. there was the reforms made to

the electoral count act. precisely because of what happened in 2020. the clarification that the role of the vice president is purely ceremonial when it comes to the certification of the electoral college to avoid this repeating itself. does this update factor in at all to pence's defense? >> it shouldn't. he was a witness to ta crime. i don't accept any of these defenses are meritorious. we put that in place to cement the idea that it was ceremonial. i don't accept we actually had to do that. he never had the ability to change the outcome. we wanted to make it absolutely clear. i do worry separately about this independent state legislature theory that is being considered in the supreme court and how trumpism would use that. but i think this is just about you saw a crime. do you want to help your country or do you not.

that's it. >> pure and simple. michael steele, this is yet another example, if you will, pulled from trump's world famous playbook. delay, try to run out the clock. they did it with the january 6th committee in congress. mike pence hopes he can do it again. merrick garland seems to have taken into consideration the political nature of the race in 2024 because joe biden is running with the special counsel. you have donald trump. is this going to be a factor, the clock and the politics of this? >> the clock and the politics are always a factor. the question is the degree to which they have a direct impact on what merry gak lard does. and what ultimately donald trump or mike pence is able to get away with. they are going try to run the clock out and trump was going to

play the victim when the indictments come down on him. and the question then royals up does that prevent him from running my thinking is no, he will still pursue that all the while claiming to be a victim of the man. you're seeing a little bit of that from mike pence now. sort of taking this holier position that because of my role president of the senate, i am somehow can avoid the responsibility of reporting on the crime that i saw or testifying to the crime that i saw. that we have evidence from my own personal writing in my books, from my interviews on television, and from the record. that from others who were around me testifying to what was going on in my presence at the time. but they are going to use the system. and they are going to try to use it to the best abiliies to slow the roll as much as possible. the question really boils back

down, how much is garland and company ready to press this? and really bring to bear whether it's the special counsel or the justice department as a whole to hold these individuals accountable and to get the testimony out of them. >> that leads me to my question because it's all about what happens next. this weekend before this news about mike pences, "the new york times" reported that the investigation was moving aggressively and pence's subpoena was a sign of that. what do you think will happen next now that we have this indication that mike pence will fight this subpoena? where does it go? >> right, so i think that it's clear that the special counsel anticipated that. that perhaps is one of the reasons that the subpoena has dropped at this particular point in time. jack smith comes out of out of the public integrity section at main justice. these are folks whose bread and butter is prosecuting public

corruption. and they are used to these sort of dug-in battles, where you have to go to court to litigate your ability to get testimony. don't think jack smith took the job of special counsel to back down at the first sight of battle. we can expect to see him fight aggressively to get every last piece of evidence he's sbut theed to to make decisions about who should be prosecuted and what they should be prosecuted for. >> congressman, thank you so much. michael steele, joyce, stick around. looking ahead to thursday, when parts of the grand jury report from fullton county, georgia, will be made public. what we're learning about the district attorney maybe planning to indict. plus new evidence of how intertwined donald trump is with saudi arabia and how a breakaway golf league is funneling money to trump properies. it's raising major national security questions here at home. and we will have a live

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in georgia we're witnessing a symbolic two-prong fallout from the political failure of donald trump's big lie, and what's perhaps the fastest moving criminal investigation into his attempts to subvert the 2020 election. they are both what appear to be the political down falls for one of the district attorney's known

targets. the party chair and fake elector schaffer, a former state senator, informed members of the state gop committee on friday he won't seek a third term when the party votes this summer. but in case that decision seems too in touch with reality for him, there's more. quote, his mem poe is an aggrieved victim of partisan politics. he depicked 2022 as a dark environment in which the organs of law enforcement have been weaponized against republicans. we're back with michael steele and joyce vance. michael, i'll start with you. is this the most gop every. a fake elector steps down amid a criminal investigation and portrays and sees himself as a

victim of partisan politics. the political report of this on how this is the same elected gop leader who went to court, still deeply connected to other electors, judge robert said while the criminal exposure for those alternate electors might be limited and relatively comparable, shafer was in what do you make of all this? >> forgive me for smiling so heavily. joyce is going to offer a more legal analysis. i'm asked to opine on stupid behavior, so i will. you're exactly right. let me get this straight. you engage in activity that arouses the concern of the legal system that then warrants their investigation of that behavior,

and you're saying somehow that this is weaponizing the system against you as a republican because you engaged in suspiciously and probably criminal behavior. what do you expect the system to do when you engage in such behavior? i'm sorry. you go rob a bank, guess what happens. >> you can investigate it. >> you're going to get investigated. they are not criminalizing the behavior. your behavior was criminal. this is the circular logic we find ourselves in, america. you got to laugh at it because otherwise you take it way too seriously. that's what they want you to take. they want want you to take the stupidity seriously and believe somehow this man including people like pence and others who are now sitting there going, oh, my god, somehow their behavior

should be excused because they want to layer it with politics. but this is judicial. this is rule of law. this is criminal. and that's what investigations are meant to do is to decide how much of your behavior talls into those buckets. if it doesn't, what. you'll get it from the system and move on. if not, you're going to court. >> that leads us to joyce for the legal analysis here. so he defended his role in orchestrating the fake state of fwrks op electors. this from the atlanta journal constitution that said what he highlights in one of his final acts, he praised the state party for agreeing to finance the legal expenses of the 14 phoney electors who could face criminal charges. i have raised the money to honor that commitment, he wrote. so that none of them have had to pay a penny out of pocket. and i apologize that i chuckled there, but what does that say as

we await a glimpse at the grand jury report this thursday and any charging decisions from the da that you have this guy saying he raised the money for these phoney electors. >> in my experience, elected officials tepically don't step down unless they have real problems in a criminal investigation. so we'll have to see how that unfolds. perhaps we'll see representative shafer an upcoming representation of the select subcommittee in the house. it seems like he would be prime for that sort of thing. what do we expect on thursday when the judge releases the fullton county da's report from the grand jury. i have to be honest and say i don't think that we'll learn a lot that we don't already know. the judge has already expressed a lot of deep processed concerns about the rights of people who maybe subject to that

investigation. i think that means that we won't expect to see a lot of talk about specific individuals. we'll get the introduction and the conclusion of the report. we know we'll see some parts of it that we'll talk about the grand jury's belief that some witnesses weren't completely forthcoming with them. perhaps this will set the table to some extent for the charges that it's now widely opportunitied that willis will be bringing. but i don't think we'll get a lot of unsight into who she is going to charge or she's going to charge them with yet. >> greatly appreciate your time and insights over the past hour. thank you so much. when we return, big new questions are being raised about the deep financial connections between donald trump and the crown prince of saudi arabia and the breakaway golf league at the middle of all of it. we'll try to get some answer, after a quick break. ome answer, after a quick break.

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a number of democrats and former trump administration officials say they are increasingly worried about what's become of the ex-president's and jared kushner's close controversial ties with the government of saudi arabia. it's a relationship built during their four years in the white house that later brought substantial investments for beth of their troubled brands and businesses. the kind of stuff that could leave a former president and a current presidential candidate beholden to another government. for example, just one year out of the white house and in defiance of the family's of 9/11

victims, trump began hosting tournaments for liv golf. saudi arabia's investment fund, the fund's chairman, the saudi crown prince. we learned in court proceedings that the fund actually owns an alarming 93% of liv golf and pays for 100% of its events. which brings us to what all of this means today. now with trump running for president again, some national security experts and two former white house officials say they have concerns that trump and kushner use their offices to set themselves up to profit from their relationship with the saudis after the administration ended. i didn't really know what jared was doing with the saudis, one former administration official said, ands that's part of the problem. we didn't know what jared was doing generally. and you know other governments had decided that you want to get

close to trump, the way to do it is through jared. joinings now is the report whose biline is on that story, reporter michael kranish and former cia director john brennan. michael, i'll start with you. the trump spokesman told you president trump is the most pro america president in history and used his negotiating skills to ensure this country is never beholden to anyone. based on your reporting, what are all the ways he could be beholden to saudi officials. >> well, that response did not answer directly a whole list of questions that i sent to president trump. he declined to talk for the story. so this story came about and has been going on for more than a years. his private equity fund got $2 billion from the sovereign wealth fund chaired by the crown prince and that liv golf is financed by the same fund. and this happened after the

trump administration left office. the question is if they help the saudis, which they did, if they help the crown prince become the count prince, which effectively they did, what are they getting in return? there are some senior officials on the record in the story and others i talked to as well who had concerns they were using their time in office to sort of build this relationship. whether that happened or not, the reality is kushner is running a private equity fund that got $2 billion from the saudis and trump is getting through his golf courses millions of dollars. we don't know exactly how much that process is opaque. so it's raised a lot of questions. there's some people, members of congress, ethics expert who is say there should be some way to enact rules to let the public know what former presidents and their top aids are getting from a foreign government that they work with closely while they were in office. >> so to that point, let me read

you a quote from michael's piece from the former acting director of the office of government ethics. he writes, i think the congress had a certain vision in mind for what a post-presidency looks like, such as creating a library account and museum and some speaking and a writing a memoir. i don't think it ever occurred to the drafters of these ethics laws that a former president would actually try to cash in on his years of office this way. how do we fix this? how do we fix it fast? >> well, i think it's quiter clear that donald trump never believed that u.s. laws and ethics and principles apply to him. he was going to try to use every opportunity while he was president and also i think in his post-presidency, to advantage himself financially, politically, whatever ways. so i do think there is a need and there's soom serious questions that have been raised by this recent reporting about what might have taken place in the waning days of the trump

administration in terms of understandings or agreements, but also afterward, what is the relationship right now between trump, kushner and the saudi crown prince? trump has declared candidate for presidency of the united states. the fact that there's a lot of money moving around in many different ways raises some very serious legitimate questions about whether or not this amounts to some type of foreign interference in the political processes here in the united states. so i do think it's up to congress. ones that are not politicized, but ones interested in trying to ensure that ethics pervade government service and continue after one leaves the office to make sure they are not going to use that time in office just to advance themselves in an unethical and illegal way. >> this lawsuit is quite fascinating. the former pga president told you that a major tournament typically pays anywhere between $2 to $3 million just to play on

a course. you write, trump declined to comment, but eric trump said that liv is doing incredible things for the game of golf and it should be no surprise we were asked to host these amazing events. do you see trump and kushner's struggling businesses as perfect for the saudi approach to dealing with unstable actors who need this type of money and this type of cash? >> well, there was a portion of the pga that pulled out a tournament, so trump as some an mouse towards the pga and liv said we're going to pay you money to hold this on jury courses and trump accepted that deal. part of this story that i wrote about is about the former "washington post" contributing column u.s. jamal khashoggi. it's an important part of the story because it score when is president trump told "the washington post" that he, quote,

saved, unquote, by basically not releasing the cia report that said they ordered the killing or capture of khashoggi. that was very important. there are people who believe if trump had released that finding that later came out through president biden, but that that really did save the crown prince. we don't know exactly, but i think obviously since we have a former cia director here, i have to wonder what he thinks about the import of that, the fact that cia made this finding about the crown prince. >> director brennan, isn't this a moral question of a presidential candidate? trump told pga golfers last year to just take the money and join liv? there's a report in mike pompeo's book, he said to say to the crown prince you owe us. now you're thinking about as we connect these dots about what may have motivated the american

president and his policy towards saudi arabia while he was in office. >> well, it seems like whatever trump does, it just raises so many questions. i do believe that trump and kushner protected the crown prince from accountability for what i think was certainly true that he was responsible for the murder and the dismemberment of jamal khashoggi. so both trump and the crown prince are transactional. they have done favors for each other over the years. the fact that now we have professional golf involved in this, it gives them one more instrument to be able to try to manipulate in order to ensure that both of them are going to benefit from this continued relationship that they have. and i think they both share an unprincipled view of what they can and can't do. so therefore, they are very much kindred spirits in that regard. >> former director brennan,

michael, thank you for joining us. it'ses a story we're going to continue to follow. when we return, a live report from ukraine. russian gains in the east are underscoring kyiv's urgent need for more weapons and more ammunition. back with that a after a quick break. ammunition back with that a after a quick break. (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe

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citizen ises to leave the city of bakhmut as cities continue to attack on the eastern front at the beginning of russia's first offensive in months. richard engel traveled to see how ukrainians are preparing if for this new attack. we just want to wash you that some of these images may be upsething to some viewers. >> reporter: russian troops are throwing everything they can at their new offensive in eastern ukraine hitting more than a dozen cities. the ukrainian military is fighting back hard, but is slowly losing ground. nato warned they are using up ammunition faster than allies can provide it. we entered the town. some have had enough. i thought it would get better, but now i don't, he says. he boards a bus for a safer village. others here waited too long. she left her place to find food

and a russian al till ri killed her. she has a son. how long can we bear all of this? the may your and his team arrive with aid. he tells us he's many encouraging people to get out now. then that's incoming, he says. we're leaving. he's saying ha that the incoming is getting too close. he thinks we should go inside. we're going to go down here to a bunker. there are people inside here. helo. how are you today? this family has been down here for eight months. the may your tries to talk them into leaving to no avail. back outside, she is has just given birth and being evacuate ed to a hospital. maxine is two hours old, even the mayor's team paused for a

quick peek. then another surprise. we met this woman last week. she wouldn't let me leave her shelter until i sampled ukrainian hospitality. she's a former nurse. >> you delivered the baby? >> reporter: yes, she said. i had had some clamps and dlifred the baby in the basement. they made it to safety. far away from the advancing frontline. richard engel, nbc news. >> our thanks to richard for that report. let's bring in foreign correspondent raf sanchez live in kyiv for us. "the washington post" has some new reporting today which says that u.s. officials are telling ukraine that this moment in the war could change the trajectory of the war. saying recent aid packages from congress and america's allies represent kyiv's best chance to decisively change the course of the war. what are you hearing there on the ground in kyiv?

>> reporter: well, we sat down yesterday with the speaker of the ukrainian parliament. he came to that interview directly from a meeting with president zelenskyy and ukraine's top military leadership. he agreed that this is a moment of peril, but also opportunity for ukraine. the peril, vladimir putin has mobilized hundreds of thousands of new constricts. many of them are not particularly well trained or well equipped, but he's throwing waves and waves of bodies at ukrainian lines. as richard described in his report, this is a groinding russian offensive along hundreds of miles of frontline, and the russians are taking ground, but the opportunity here is that every week the ukrainians could hold the line is one week closer to getting those advanced nato weapons on to the battlefield and the speaker of the parliament, who is a close ally

told us ukraine cannot compete in a war of attrition with the russians. they are too outnumbered on the battlefield. ukraine can win through a war of technology. they can fight smarter, not harder and that those vabsed nato weapons are going to be absolutely key for this. now the item the ukrainians have in mind are f-16 fighter jets, and they need that to sea off the russian offensive, but also to protect their cities, which every night are being hammered by both missiles and iranian made self-destructing drones. now when nato ministers met earlier today in brussels, they were worried about something much less low the ukrainians are getting through some 7,000 rounds of artillery every single day in the fighting in the east. that is a far higher rate of fire than the nato countries are able to produce. these artillery shells.

and there is real concern in western capitals that not only are the ukrainians going to not have enough ammunition to continue the fight, but nato countries themselves may have depleted stocks. so the nato alliance agreed to step up its production of artillery shells. that will be key. but this is a very, very tough fight in the east focused around the city of bakhmut. the russians do appear to be tightening the noose around that city. they've taken a number of the villages surrounding it. as you mentioned, ukrainian officials are both encouraging their own civilians to evacuate, but also telling volunteers who, up until this point, have been going into the city, trying to evacuate people, treat the wounded, they should not go into bakhmut. looks like any day the russians will cut the one road into the

city and at that point they should have it pretty well encircled. that should fall in the coming days, but that will be a symbolic victory, not a strategic victory because the ukrainians have held on there for such a long time at a bloody cost has bought them time. >> raf sanchez live in kyiv. thank you as always. quick break for us. we'll be right back. k for us we'll be right back. ♪ this feels so right... ♪ adt systems now feature google products like the nest cam with floodlight, with intelligent alerts when a person or familiar face is detected. sam. sophie's not here tonight. so you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt. something's happening at ihop.

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retired u.s. army colonel paris davis, one of the first black officers to lead a special forces team in combat was first nominated for the military's highest honor almost 60 years ago, but the paper work recommending davis for that medal of honor disappeared at least twice. after speaking with president biden yesterday, colonel davis released a statement saying their phone call, quote, prompted a wave of memories of the men and women i served with in vietnam, from the members of the fifth special forces broup and other military younts to the doctors and nurses who cared for our wounded. another break for us. we'll be right back. us we'll be right back.

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thank you very much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we have a big show tonight, and we've got a lot to get to. donald trump has drawn his first official competitor in this primary election. nikki haley is in, running against donald trump. later, neil de grasse tyson. we're definitely going to get into the talk of ufos. we begin with a story i've told you before is super important, even if you are