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. good to be with you, i'm katy tur, former vice president mike pence is putting up a fight. a moment ago in minnesota, he told reporters he is pushing back on special counsel jack smith's subpoena requiring him to testify about january 6th. pence is citing the speech and debate clause, something normally reserved for sitting lawmakers. >> my fight is on the separation of powers. my fight against the doj's subpoenas very simply is on defending the prerogatives that i had as president of the senate to preside over the joint session of congress on january 6th. for me, this is a moment where you have to decide where you stand and i stand on the constitution of the united states. >> yesterday if you were with us, you would have heard former

federal prosecutor paul butler tell us that argument, that speech and debate clause would be a good academic paper for a law student but not as good of an argument in court. after all, pence was not a legislator, technically. he was vice president. we're going to talk about the timing of pence's refusal and what it means politically because it's politically significant in a moment. but first, step back and take in just how far jack smith has now shown us he is willing to go in his investigations into donald trump, not just with the subpoena for the former vice president regarding the insurrection, but now another potential subpoena for donald trump's own lawyer and the other trump investigation into the classified documents found at mar-a-lago. smith wants to hear from evan , citing the crime fraud exception. that is a lot of legal jargon, if you didn't follow it all, don't worry. we're going to explain it right

now. joining me is msnbc news correspondent, julia ainsley and by phone, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard who's in cedar rapids, iowa. would have loved to see your face, but barring that, happy to get your voice. you've covered vice president pence for years now. you know that he doesn't say something unless he intends to say something. he won't even answer a question that you ask him if he doesn't want to answer that question. he'll say what he wants to say anyway. read between the lines for us, and help us understand what mike pence is sending, the message he's sending by pushing back on this subpoena and why right now? >> reporter: we will be holding this event in cedar rapids, iowa, momentarily, to hopefully put the questions to him. for mike pence, he's somebody who's been the controlled messenger, and he wrote in his book published earlier this year when talking about the january 6th events, he said he left the

oval office one day just before january 6th and told the president, president trump at the time, that there had been nobody outside of his family more loyal than him, and what you have consistently seen is mike pence defend the actions of the administration outside of the events of donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. when it comes to this subpoena, he says that he is going to fight it on the grounds of the role that he played on that day of january 6th. and that was, as the president of the senate. urn the speech or debate clause of article i of the institution, it outlines that house and senate members cannot face the legal inquiry from the department of justice over their deliberations in the legislative body. this is the issue is because just a couple of months ago, ahead of the january 6th select committee on capitol hill talking about subpoenaing him, his position at the time was as

a member of the executive branch and executive privilege and his relation to donald trump, he would not be able to testify. so essentially he is now looking to make the case that the legal position that he served on january 6th was that of the senate president. but ultimately he says that he has talked about the success of his book, answered questions and interview, and all of that is true, but one thing that mike pence has not done to this point is answer questions under oath, and if there was, as the january 6th select committee frames in their report in december that there was a conspiracy that donald trump was a part of to defraud the u.s. government, the vice president, his number two, would likely have a lot of information the department of justice would like to get at that only he could provide. >> do we know if this is something he just doesn't want to do or is this just too much of a political hot potato for him because he might be running for president? he's heading to iowa after all.

>> right, and i can't tell you, how many conversations i have had over the last two years, 762 days since pence left washington, d.c. with republican voters who, you know, outside of the four years that he served in that white house have a hard time seeing past the actions that he took on january 6th when he certified that donald trump lost. and a reality for mike pence who is here in iowa today actually trying to focus on gender affirming care in schools in the right wing culture war against transgender minors, this is topic that he would much rather not discuss. and if he is able to at least make the case to republican voters as he mounts a potential presidential run himself that he did not comply with what he says is the politicized biden department of justice, he goes at least he will be able to make the case that he did not

undermine or was complicit, i should say, undermine the republican party and complicit with the democratic party by taking part in this subpoena through the department of justice, and at least he'll be able to say that he spoke his word and he did what he was constitutionally obligated to do, but outside of that, he did not play merrick garland or joe biden's politicalization in his words of the department of justice. he did not play into their hands on that account. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. julia, let's talk about the broader scope here, bigger picture as i said at the top. it's not just pence, the special counsel jack smith wants to hear more from donald trump's lawyer. "the new york times" is reporting that evan corkeran has sat in front of a grand jury. why would jack smith take the further step of going to a federal judge and asking to compel more testimony from him citing crime fraud? >> well, it seems as perhaps

jack smith didn't get as much as he wanted. he's at the heart of jack smith's task into looking into the way classified documents were handled by former president trump when he took those documents to mar-a-lago. he was the lawyer who told christina bobb saying they handed over all documents to the archives and complied with the presidential records act when in fact we found from the search in august of mar-a-lago that that wasn't the case. bobb took the step to add a clause next to her signature to the best of my knowledge all of these documents have been turned over. what jack smith wants to know is was there a conversation between evan corcoran and former president donald trump. that is at the heart of the investigation when you're looking at trump's handling of classified documents might have

been different from other people who have had classified documents go back to their private residences. we know that what jack smith has been looking into is whether or not there was obstruction, whether or not there was espionage, and whether or not there was actually something that could be charged here criminally, not just that it was a violation of the presidential records act, and so what this shows us is, a, jack smith is aggressive. he's using this to show he wants the judge to say that they cannot keep that communication about signing that document protected by attorney/client privilege, that's an aggressive strategy, it also shows that he is taking this investigation to a serious level where it could turn into criminal charges from this grand jury, and that he would try to seek an indictment based on that from the grand jury. so it really ups the ante and shows us where jack smith is, which is always hard to do during grand jury investigations because of course this is all

sealed and this situation is coming from sources. >> let's understand it further with msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. explain the legal jargon, what is the crime/fraud exception? >> so like you said in your intro, we're taking our viewers, i don't think this is law 101. this is more like law 102. it's complicated stuff but the principle here is this, people are entitled to have confidential conversations with their lawyers. if i, for instance, am accused of committing a bank robbery, i can go talk candidly with my lawyer, and get information on how best to defend myself. but what i can't do, i can't go to my lawyer and say can you help me commit the next bank robbery. if i do that that otherwise confidential communication is deemed to be no longer privileged because of the crime/fraud exception. you can't go to your lawyer to

get advice on how to commit a crime. >> this is the documents case, what smith is use to go try to compel evan corcoran, and the other case is the insurrection, jack smith remembers looking into both of these things regarding donald trump. he wants to hear from vice president pence, the former vice president, and pence is saying, no, i'm protected by the speech and debate clause. we spoke briefly to paul butler about this. he said it would be a great academic argument. why he thinks this would be an effective, successful argument to not have to sit for jack smith's interview? well, katy, the reason, the likely reason that the former vice president is using this argument is because the argument of executive privilege has already failed. we know that his former legal counsel, his former chief of staff have already testified in

front of the special counsel's grand jury. they likely made an effort to use this executive privilege argument and it failed resulting in their testimony. so mike pence has had to find a new argument, and someone has stumbled upon this notion that he's somehow covered by the speech or debate clause privilege that protects members of congress from having to testify about work they undertake not just on the floor of the congress but also when they're doing, for instance, investigative work to facilitate some of the committee work they do as members of congress. you know, i am 100% with paul butler here. i think he's wise to say that this technically is an interesting argument. there's little case law on this. a court might spend time trying to disentang l the issues here. ultimately mike pence was elected to be the vice president, he was not elected to the united states senate. it's a little bit disingenuous

to use this privilege to shield his testimony. pence ends up looking a lot like someone who doesn't want to testify. someone who has something to hide, and that's the sort of behavior that really piques federal prosecutors' interest. >> interesting. i assume we're going to talk to you about this again as it winds its way through the courts. joyce vance, thank you very much. and now to capitol hill with our other lead story. senators are getting a classified briefing on china. senator chris coons told us relations with china are at a cold point. those were his words. how cold exactly? joining me now is nbc news white house correspondent carol lee, nbc capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles, and nbc news pentagon correspondent, courtney kube. they're in a classified briefing, it's happening yigt right now, can you give us an expectation of what senators were expecting.

>> this briefing was scheduled before the dust up with the unidentified objects and the chinese spy balloon. this was on the books for some time, and it's been described as a briefing on defense preparedness as it relates to china, and so there is the distinct possibility that the conversation around the spy balloon and other unidentified objects could come up because the majority of the briefers are from the pentagon and members of the department of defense. they will are insight into that. this is really expected to be a much broader conversation about china in general. the increased competition between china both diplomatically and militarily and how the united states is prepared to handle that growing threat as time goes on. >> do you have any information, any insight about what the white house might be doing to defrost relations with china? i know the secretary of state was supposed to head over this before this balloon stuff popped up. now we're hearing general lloyd

austin isn't getting his phone calls answered by china. are there phone calls happening behind the scenes to try and get things back on track? >> one of the things that we have heard from the administration is that from their perspective, including from the president, this is not something they see as affecting u.s./china relations. that's hard for some people to imagine, but that's what the administration is saying. essentially saying that their position on china and how they would respond to things like interfering in u.s. airspace, that their views on that, or the administration's views on that are very clear, and this shouldn't have come as a shock to the chinese. secretary blinken did cancel that trip that he had planned since november to beijing, but there are rumors and discussions about whether or not he may have a meeting with a chinese counter part while in munich for a security conference, and so there's potentially lines of communication that could be open. one thing we know for sure is that from the administration's

perspective, we have heard this from multiple officials, it's better to have a line of communication open with china, given the importance of the relationship and so there's a real emphasis on trying to get things to shut down. president biden met with president xi in november to try to resettle things, and now here we are where they're cancelling secretary blinken's trip there. they would like to get things on a better path or at least stabilized. >> what about the president speaking to the american public? what's the reasoning behind him not coming out. they don't want to make this a bigger deal than they believe it is? >> we heard from the white house press secretary saying americans don't need to panic here. there is that factor into it. we have heard from officials who have said, look, the information just isn't fully enough for the president to come out and speak to this. he's answered questions here and there but he hasn't explained or said to the american people,

here's what's happening and here's what we're doing about it. on monday the president ordered the review by various government agencies on how these on thes are handled and how they're tracked and what the white house is saying is that review is expected to be complete by the end of this week, and that some protocols would be set in place for dealing with these sorts of objects in u.s. airspace, and that could provide a platform or an opportunity for the president to speak to the american people, given he would likely have a lot more information after that review. the preliminary results were given to him. again, the white house and officials are reporting just discussing this and haven't made final plans. >> courtney, you are with the secretary of defense lloyd austin in brussels. you got a sit down with him, a one on one. what did he tell you about these objects and balloons that we're now detecting? >> reporter: he said there's been no claim of ownership for the three unidentified objects

that we have been talking about so much. we know that the first one was chinese. it was a high altitude surveillance balloon. the follow-on ones that the u.s. military shot down are still unidentified. we know now that the u.s. is leaning towards the conclusion that they were not a threat. they were nonthreatening. he did acknowledge they were not a military threat to people on the ground but defended the decision to shoot them down saying they may have posed a threat to civilian aviation or military aviation, and they weren't sure whether they may have been surveilling on the ground. he seems optimistic they'll be able to collect the debris, and he says that's one of the next steps to being positively identifying exactly what these were. he also acknowledged that they done really know how many of these sorts of flying objects may have been over the u.s. in the past or may have been over

them in the recent past. i asked him what that means for the american public, is that an intelligence failure. here's what he had to say? >> the fact that the u.s. military didn't know about these until recently, is than an intelligence failure, a military failure? >> no, it's how you use your radars. we typically are focused on things that are moving fast, and so it's a bit more difficult to collect on slow moving objects like a balloon. and as they made adjustments, they were able to see some of that. >> reporter: keep in mind that, you know, these radar differences, these radar changes they have made, they will mean they will detect more of these going forward. they're going to take each one on a case by case, not a blanket policy to take out small i think so. i have to add the relationship with the chinese, he acknowledged for the first time on camera, he tried calling his chinese counter part before they

shot down the high altitude surveillance balloon, that was a potentially dangerous development. if there's a miscommunication and they don't have military-to-military hot lines, it could lead to a real problem. >> i asked john kirby about that, he said there are other lines of communication but everyone is acknowledging they would like to have that line open. and my last question to ryan, the reason the line was not answered was because nancy pelosi made a trip to taiwan. now there's talk of speaker kevin mccarthy going to tie tie -- taiwan, what's going on? >> reporter: he's talking around it every time the question is posed but he was very specifically asked about this a week or so ago, and said if he had any concerns that the chinese government has specifically said that they would not be in favor of a trip by the speaker to taiwan, and he specifically said that the chinese government will not tell

him what to do. it's very clear, if kevin mccarthy wants to go to china or taiwan, i should say, he will end up doing so. at this point, there are no official plans on the books to make that happen. if it were to happen, it would probably happen sometime over the summer. >> ryan nobles, courtney kube, carol lee, thank you very much. and coming up, what president biden said in the last hour about our economy as we're hearing new warnings about when the u.s. could default on its debts. plus, she's in, but can she beat her former boss? what nicky haley says she can do that trump cannot. and enough is enough. what michigan state students did just two days after three of their classmates were shot and killed on their campus. e shot ad killed on their campus (woman 1) i just switched to verizon business unlimited. it's just right for my little business. unlimited premium data. unlimited hotspot data. (woman 2) you know it's from the most reliable 5g network in america? (vo) when it comes to your business, not all bars are created equal. so switch to verizon business unlimited today.

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default that the treasury secretary janet yellen predicted, which could mean that debt limit negotiations will feel even less urgent. some house republicans find themselves in the unusual position of agreeing with house progressives and hoping to cut some spending from defense. a prospect real enough that senate republicans are warning them to stay away from the pentagon according to reporting this morning from our friends at punch bowl. joining us now is one of our friends from punch bowl, punch bowl news cofound ir, jake sherman, and senior white house correspondent kayla tausche. treasury says they're sticking to their june deadline. that's when they believe the u.s. will default on its debts. what's the status of the negotiations you can tell us between the white house and republicans? are you hearing anything, and how is the number two at the fed moving over to the white house?

lael brainard going to affect these negotiations? >> when dr. brainard moves to the national economic council this is going to be the number one issue that she will have to tackle, and she's going to be leaning on long-term relationships that she has up on capitol hill to try to advance those negotiations and broker some sort of deal but right now it's sort of a stalemate between the hill and the white house with republicans on the hill saying, you know, president biden show us your budget. well, the white house is planning to release its budget on march 9th, and then perhaps from there, republicans will look at the fine print on what the administration releases and figure out what's this the blueprint that they don't like and that they want to cut out as what they see as wasteful spending. treasury is usually more conservative on what it calls the x date, the date when it sees a potential default in the works. it said june 5th. you don't like to get too close to that because of how much it

can rattle domestic and international financial markets. treasury is conservative, but the congressional budget office said today it could be earlier than july. it just really depends on what tax season looks like and how much revenue the u.s. gets from corporations and individuals paying their taxes this year. >> got it. house republicans, how serious are they about dipping into the pentagon? >> reporter: they are serious, kevin mccarthy the speaker has said many times he believes there's lots of waste, fraud and abuse. now, waste, fraud and abuse, even according to the most liberal estimates is still quite a small piece of the pie. lindsey graham, somebody who has protected the penalty gone for many decades, said he doesn't want defense spending to go less than 3.2% of gdp. tom cotton is out there saying that the pentagon should increase its spending.

think of it this way. let's break it down for a second. you're not cutting defense spending, not messing with medicare, social security, where's the money coming from? kevin mccarthy says he wants to cut spending alongside a debt limit increase, he wants to cut it back to 2022 levels, you're not cutting from all of those places, where are you cutting from, and that's the question he and president biden will have to come to some sort of conclusion on in the next couple of months. >> there's little likelihood, president biden will cut social programs to get them back to the 2022 budget. that would be like taking a sledge hammer to it. the two biggest pieces of the pie. >> this is the staring contest. this is the kevin mccarthy's insistence that he will not raise a clean debt ceiling, combined with joe biden's wanting to protect social programs and the federal

spending he set into law that were approved with wide bipartisan majorities in most cases on capitol hill. this is not a -- this is a staring contest that's very far from over, and i agree with kayla. i do think according to the experts i talked to, the real likelihood here is sometime middle of july to end of july, so that's what i think -- that's where i think we're heading. >> hope you don't have a concert to go to. >> seven shows at msg, we're screwed once again. >> let's talk about social security and medicare. the cbo says both programs need more money. by the time you and i will be taking out social security, not even us, ten years from now, if you're taking out social security, you're not going to get your full benefit, unless more taxes are raised or spending is cut and put into medicare and social security.

does that feel urgent to any lawmakers? >> reporter: no, it should though. this is one of the issues where kind of everybody understands that these programs are not going to be solvent for much longer, but no one wants to touch the hot stove to get to a place they want to be. we have seen politically what happens when people talk about what happens to entitlement programs, social security and medicare. paul ryan put a budget in place in 2012 that would have changed these programs. they were very conservative budgets but would have changed the programs to make them more solvent in his view, and he got completely destroyed for that. of course this is a huge problem and it's something that nobody wants to deal with. and the tide has turned. the script has flipped in a way, now republicans are pretty much across the board saying we're not going to touch medicare, we're not going to touch social security. ten years ago, eleven years ago, every republican was saying we need to touch these programs,

make them more solvent, make them stronger for the next generation. >> talk to me about when they start addressing immigration in terms of the economy. when they start to talk about getting more immigration so they can shore up the tax base, that is a conversation i want to hear about. jake sherman, thank you very much. and coming up, did governor desantis go too far. the protest he's facing at the florida state capitol today. and nicky haley is in, and she's not so subtly attacking her former boss. what she said republicans need to do to start winning elections again. ed to do to start winning elections again. (woman 1) i just switched to verizon business unlimited. it's just right for my little business. unlimited premium data. unlimited hotspot data. (woman 2) you know it's from the most reliable 5g network in america? (vo) when it comes to your business, not all bars are created equal. so switch to verizon business unlimited today. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother, alice. and, long lasting gain scent beads. try gain odor defense.

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well, that ends today. >> nikki haley came out swing, an hour after rallying her first campaign crowd, trump's team started slamming her record. joining me from charleston is nbc news capitol hill correspondent ally vitale, what's the trump team saying about nicky haley. >> reporter: for them, it's point to go statements that haley has made in the past. we saw this when she made her official announcement with a video yesterday. the trump team saying they wish her well but noting that she had previously said she wouldn't run in a 2024 primary if donald trump were running in t. of course that's exactly the situation we're in now as nicky haley tries to turn the panl. page. the way she's talking about shadow boxing with the former president under whom she once

served as u.n. ambassador. she's not willing to talk about trump directly, but referencing him in the larger landscape of trying to turn the page as she argues for a new generation of leadership. to me what that says is the strategy for haley, and this might be something we see from other contenders as well is not to take on trump directly but instead to talk about things that they bring to the table that he can't. specifically the fact that he is in his 70s running again, and these are new faces on the republican and national stage. >> ali vitale, thank you very much. activists in florida rallied against ron desantis for rejecting an ap african-american studies course. students, parents and educators spoke out about desantis's attempt to send the state back to the pre-civil rights era. trymaine lee, who showed up and

what did they say? >> reporter: you mentioned the kind of group across the board, activists, protesters, elected officials and clergymen, all coming out here along with young folks to raise their voices about an issue that's deeply personal, not unlike racialized, polarized issues. for governor desantis to in some ways censure, restrict black history, many people say it feels like you're trying to erase who we are as a people, not just the ugly parts of the american experience black oem folks have gone through, but the greatest. one young teacher said he's not only navigating in the classroom with pressure top down, but wrestling with this as a father, a black man in this state. let's take a listen. >> black history is american history and history is not supposed to be comfortable. history is a beautiful, ugly

story. if you can engage with the ugly parts, you're bound to repeat those ugly parts. >> reporter: when folks talk about the fear of repeating the ugly parts of the history, the jim crow south and white supremacist violence we have experienced, it's not hyperbole for those who see this as a broader attempt to restrict access, not only to the franchise and history but how black folks are experiencing life in this country and the power that they're trying to harness. folks out here were certainly fired up. it was certainly personal, and again, one important important is the range of folks. you have the obvious folks, the reverend al sharpton, and other elected officials, but a lot of young people in classrooms, learning about themselves or where they fit in american history, and it allowed them to be here today. >> trymaine lee, thank you very much. and coming up next, what will happen, democrats control both chambers in the michigan state legislature. what are they going to do about the latest school shooting. and on the subject of mass

shootings. there was an outburst during the sentencing for the man who massacred shoppers at tops grocery in buffalo. we'll show you what happened in the courtroom. l show you what h the courtroom.

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or live chat at calhope.org today. . michigan state university is waiting on word about five students, all injured in monday's shooting. this as the school mourns of three others staging a sit in to say enough is enough.

>> look at these students right here, and understand their pain. before you act like you understand us, please take a moment to sit with us and to listen to us. and to be with us because you won't be us, you haven't been us, and hopefully soon you'll never be us. but it could be any of you. it could be anywhere at any time, and i only feel protected and the sad part is i only feel protected to come here today because i know there are important people here. why can't i feel that safe regardless? >> joining me now from east lansing is nbc news correspondent shaq brewster. you cover a lot of politics for us, including in michigan. democrats now control both houses in the state legislature, which would mean if they would to, they should be able to get some sort of gun reform legislation into place. what's the word on what might happen? i know the governor's calling for it, so is, i believe, the

attorney general. >> reporter: yeah, those calls are definitely coming, a lot of focus on what can be done at a statewide level, especially with the shift in the balance of power in the state. i'll tell you here on the campus, i asked a couple of students about that, and they said that conversation is happening, but our focus is on what's lost in the shooting, the three individuals lost, and of course those prayers that are still ongoing for the five who remain hospitalized, the folks in critical condition, still in the hospital fighting for their lives. we know there are more commemorations we can expect later today. you'll also see a scene we saw on this campus today. you'll see this play out over the next couple of days. in the building behind me issue we saw people going up, people in the student union. the second scene of the shooting where you had people drop their bags, drop their laptops, drop their phones and rush out as the shooting was taking place, well, the fbi reopening it to students today who were in the building, and i watched students go in.

they had to fill out a list of what they had missing, and they went in and one by one, they were escorted by fbi agents to pick up those items, and then i would watch them come out with their families, sometimes with their friends, usually with tears in their eyes as they had to essentially relive that moment that caused so much fear and shock on this campus, rather. i want you to listen to a conversation i had with a student outside of the makeshift memorial here on campus. listen to what she said is her focus right now. >> we're not safe at the grocery store. we're not safe at the movie theater. we're not safe at school, whether it's kindergarten, elementary school, middle school, high school, anywhere, kids aren't safe and no one cares. no one's doing anything. there's no reform. there's nothing in place to protect kids from this, and people are dying, i mean, what is this, the 60th mass shooting of the year, and it's february. we can't live like this. we can't continue to live like

this, it's not safe here. >> reporter: and then there's also the latest with the investigation. i spoke to the police chief, an fbi special agent who said there's not much to release publicly in terms of the investigation. they still say there's no connection, no known connection between the suspect and the university. there are a lot of questions, and we hope to get some of them answered during a press conference tomorrow. >> you feel the pain in that girl's voice, and i think it's important to remember there are students, including one we spoke to yesterday who survived two mass shootings in just under two years. it's a lot. she says she doesn't feel safe, you understand why. the 19-year-old who shot and killed ten people and injured three others in a racist massacre in buffalo, new york, last year has been sentenced to life in prison, without the possibility of parole.

>> there is no place for you or your ignorant, hateful and evil ideologies in a civilized society. there can be no mercy for you, no understanding, no second chances. the damage you have caused is too great, and the people you have hurt are too valuable to this community. you will never see the light of day as a free man ever again. >> the hearing, which featured statements from victims' family was interrupted when a man lunged at the shooter. you see it right here in the video. it is unclear how that man was related to the victims. before the sentence was handed down, the 19-year-old now convicted murderer apologized to the families. >> i can't take it back, but i wish i could, and i don't want

anyone to be inspired by me and what i did. >> you don't mean none of that. >> apology did not go over well. the shooter faces separate federal charges which carry the possibility of the death penalty. those are his victims. and nearly two weeks after a train carrying hazardous chemicals derailed in eastern ohio, residents are complaining of health problems, they're also worried about the local wildlife, at least 3,500 fish have now been found dead local waterways. 20 of the rail cars were carrying some form of toxin, including vinyl chloride, a toxic chemical gas in order to avoid explosion, authorities did a controlled release of those chemicals. that's that smoke. while the epa says the air is safe, residents are not so sure. the government meanwhile says

the railroad should have been required to notify people that there was high hazardous material on board. >> look, we're going to hold the railroad responsible. the railroad caused this. i called the ceo yesterday, i talked to him a number of times. i said, look, there's people in palestinian who are concerned that you guys are going to leave before you get the total area cleaned up and he assured me, no we're not going to leave. and we're going to hold him to that. >> norfolk southern railroad began offering checks to residents and small businesses in and around east palestinian ohio as a quote, inconvenience fee. coming up next, more unbelievable rescues in turkey, and more unbelievable images of what the earthquakes did, not just to the buildings and the people but the land itself. ut tf

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searchers and survivors refusing to give up. at least nine people freed from the mountains of concrete and twisted metal that used to make up their homes tuesday. these rescuers finding the out sketched hand of a 65-year-old survivor pulled out after nearly nine days, rescue crews digging long tunnels to reach them. many exhausted, some sleeping on piles of debris. more than 200,000 homes in turkey were destroyed or so badly damaged they'll have to be demolished. turkey's president saying more than 35,000 have died in this country alone. close to the fault line, the quakes changing the landscape. this used to be a single olive grove. now separated by a deep canyon a mile and a half long. tens of thousands are homeless and hungry. these volunteers feeding a thousand people a day.

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