♪♪ hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. the clearest sign yet that special counsel jack smith has evidence of a crime in the probe into donald trump's handling of classified documents after he left the white house. that is thanks to brand new reporting on a behind the scenes legal battle between doj and one of trump's attorneys. his name is evan corcoran. the special counsel investigating donald trump's handling of classified documents

is seeking to compel a lawyer for the former president to testify before the grand jury. according to a source familiar with the matter. prosecutors alleged in a sealed filing that they have evidence that some of trump's conversations with the attorney were in furtherance of a crime. the special counsel is reportedly asking a judge to invoke the crime fraud exception. and force an attorney to testify under oath about conversations between him and his client which in this case, would be evan corcoran and one donald trump. "the new york times" which was first to report the news at the special counsel is zeroing in on this quote, whether trump or his associates obstructed justice in failing to comply with demands to return a trove of government material he took with him from the white house upon leaving office, including hundreds of documents with classified markings. one potentially very important

piece of evidence determining whether the ex-president or his attorneys obstructed justice is a letter delivered to doj and signed by one of trump's attorneys in june of last year. declaring there were no classified documents, none at all, left at mar-a-lago. once again from that "times" reporting another lawyer from trump, christina bobb signed a statement saying that quote, a diligent search had been conducted at mar-a-lago, trump's residence and private club in palm beach, florida, and that there were no additional documents bearing classification markings. bobb has told investigators and others that mr. corcoran drafted that statement, and she added caveats to it seeking to make it less ironclad. two months later, the fbi found 100 classified documents during their search of mar-a-lago, including highly sensitive intelligence about a foreign government's nuclear secrets, as well as empty folders with

classification markings. a search warrant said there was quote, probable cause to believe that evidence of an obstruction would be found. an aggressive new legal strategy becoming somewhat public, is where we begin with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. "washington post" national investigative reporter and msnbc contributor carol leonnig is back. harry lipman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general, host of the podcast talking feds. frank figliuzzi, now an msnbc national security analyst, and our friend charlie sykes is here, editor at large of the bulwark.

you can compare the last special counsel investigation into obstruction with this special counsel investigation into obstruction. we refer to it as the two prongs of the mueller probe, and what seems to be the difference is that in don mcghan, he had a lawyer who was skilled enough and smart enough not just to take notes but have a chief of staff that took notes and to know where the lines were and retain a skilled lawyer to make sure he didn't cross any of them. in this case, it sounds like potentially, this special counsel is trying to figure out bobb and corcoran came on the other side of the line. >> that's not far off. we should be careful and say that the crime/fraud exception that jack smith is trying to use to pierce the privilege that evan corcoran had with donald trump doesn't require a finding that evan corcoran engaged in a

crime, doesn't require that evan corcoran knew what donald trump's intent to commit a crime was, if that was his intelligent. what jack smith is tying to find out is what did donald trump tell you when you began crafting this obviously false and misleading assertion that you'd carefully searched, diligently searched and there were no more classified records at the mar-a-lago property. remember, we have to put some pieces together here about what the government knew about evidence of a crime to start with. in july, they have by this point video surveillance showing people moving boxes from the storage area. and that evidence pre-dates, forgive me, that evidence comes after donald trump has been served with a subpoena to turn over records, right? so evan corcoran is now being told, this is where you should search for documents. what did donald trump tell him about where the government documents were? what did he tell them about the totality of where he should be

searching? what instructions did donald trump give his lawyer at that point? a lawyer that the government has come to distrust in the highest form. it doesn't mean that bobb and corcoran were engaged in a crime. what they want to know is we have evidence of a crime, were you getting instructions that helped build the evidence for that? >> carol, i have that. let me read from that. this is from a doj filing, through further investigation the fbi uncovered multiple sources of evidence indicating that the response to the may 11th grand jury subpoena was incomplete and that classified documents remained at the premises notwithstanding the sworn certification made to the government on june 3rd. in particular, the government developed evidence that a search limited to the storage room would not have uncovered all the classified documents at the premises. the government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room and that efforts were likely

taken to obstruct the government's investigation. just, again, help us understand how this new reporting and this revelation fits into what they've known it would appear from pre-dating may 11th and june 8th filings. >> i think you're right, nicolle to want to pull the dots together, draw the dots together. there's a may subpoena. there's a june promise by evan corcoran. we've given you all the records, we've searched and here's everything complying with the subpoena. there is a request and obtaining of video surveillance in july that shows that's probably a lie, and now jack smith with all the evidence of obstruction, with all the evidence that records not only were likely being concealed but ended up in the august raid being found to have been concealed, and some of our most highly guarded secrets

in the national firment. -- firmament, with all of that, jack smith is trying to, based on this new development, what is the evidence of that crime? who directed it? it was donald trump? did he intend to conceal or did he embroil his attorney in the concealing of national security secrets? i think this indicates something important which is dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's in an investigation that could end with criminal charges or could end with a finding that there is not sufficient evidence to prove obstruction at trial. >> harry, tell us how crow see it. i'll put this out there on the table. our friend says this. these are final steps of the investigation. manafort was indicted after ruling mueller could use crime

fraud exception, do you agree with that? well, first, yes, we're pretty far down the line. i wouldn't make manafort the exact analog. i think that's the headline. the focus is not on corcoran and bobb. what happened here is they lie about the subpoena. that's flat out obstruction. they brought corcoran to a grand jury, and want to know, and there's some evidence that's independent of all of this that maybe there was fraud in the communications between trump and corcoran. they say, what did trump tell you? he says, well i refuse to answer because of attorney/client privilege. smith says, fine, see you in court, it's the kind of aggressive move you contrasted with mueller up top, that mueller wouldn't do. and it's got trump, and really trump alone in the cross hairs, the question is what was the

communications from trump, and were they, as you suggest, either -- unless corcoran decided to fall on his sword giving trump total deniability, possible, but man, you know, you don't find that that often. then trump's involved in this decision. trump told him something and it could be very strong evidence of obstruction. one quick point of process. the government just has to come forward with a little bit of a showing that there may be evidence of a crime and then the judge howell will decide whether more than likely or not, that's enough to pierce the exception. obviously that's less than the criminal threshold. this is exactly what happened in california with judge carter and the john eastman docks to find there's enough to pierce the attorney general privilege. >> not to sound like a nonlawyer who doesn't know what she's talking about. don't we have this evidence of obstruction in full view?

haven't we seen it in the affidavit and i read from one of doj's filings in the back and forth with aileen cannon, we know that the national archives spent 11 to 15 engagements trying to get the stuff. we know christina bobb has caveated to death and oblivion. she's been before the grand jury. we know that she was she wasn't attesting to the truth. we know they found a whole bunch of stuff. we know there was stuff everywhere, the fbi knew exactly where it was. don't we know that donald trump obstructed the investigation into classified documents at mar-a-lago? >> everything you say is right, and don't kid yourself in the last few years, you've earned several times over, but what we don't know, and it's a potential pristine and killer piece of evidence, what did trump tell you before you signed that document saying we'd done a diligent search and turned

everything up. if the real answer is he wasn't involved, that's one piece of evidence that smith doesn't have. if on the other hand, it's he said just tell him this, i don't care whether it's true or not, now, you have just a terrific piece of evidence that has to come from the mouth of the lawyer in front of the jury. that specific piece, nicolle is not, we don't know one way or the other yet, and it could be killer. >> frank figliuzzi, clearly what becomes public becomes public so far down the chain from where the fbi investigators and doj comes into conduct with the potential criminal agents, but it seems going back today and looking at the filings to obtain the search warrant for the court-approved search of mar-a-lago that they clearly believed there was evidence that was pristine and pretty solid to obtain the warrant in the first place, what do you see?

>> yeah, i agree. what they're doing here is absolutely nailing it down tight. that's what they need to do. when you present to a jury, you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. yes, we've got evidence that there's obstruction here, and i'll note on the obstruction thing. there's so much buzz around the pence and biden documents and their residences or offices and what is that impact going to be on smith and potential prosecution for possessing or mishandling documents, but we done know, but what we do know is this. as you've just pointed out at least twice now, the obstruction part of the document case is solid, and it's going to get more solid, it appears. the other thing i'll add and tack on to what harry said is this concept of, hey, you need more than a hunch. you've got to show a judge you've got evidence that a crime occurred as you're asserting. that's important here because this is -- i wouldn't say this

is rare to demand an attorney to testify and provide evidence against his client, but it requires high levels of approval at doj, very senior levels. i've overseen such cases. i've overseen searches of an attorney's office. and then i started thinking back, you know, carol talked about, hey, let's be careful. you don't need to show that these lawyers have committed a crime. you don't. but i'll tell you, i've had cases where the lawyer was embedded with the crime, and some of the language being used here. the legal services were in furtherance of a crime. that's very interesting to me, and i go back 23 years to my days in miami, and the cocaine culture, where we had lawyers being paid in suitcases full of drug cash, and yes, we were debating about going into lawyers' offices. again, it's infrequent, requires

high levels, and i'm certainly if jack smith is doing this, he's got somebody talking, more than what we described about the video tape and people moving boxes after the subpoena. i think people are talking, and i think, you know, the ultimate dilemma for a defense attorney is having to basically give evidence against their client but now it's time for them to decide do i like my career and my bar license, do i like my freedom. they're really going through things now. >> when you say something's interesting, you pique my interest in following up. when you say it's interesting that they're looking at the conduct of lawyers who may have acted in furtherance of a crime, do you think they're looking at a conspiracy to obstruct an investigation? >> as carol accurately pointed out, caution is important here, but some of the language being used does intrigue me. this seems to be more than just hey, you know, a lawyer being able to say i was relying entirely on my client. that's it. well, something caused you to draft a letter.

something caused you to rely on that with some certainty of what that client was telling you, and i wonder -- i wonder if one attorney is talking about the other attorney to the investigators right now. you know, he did it. no, she did it. she told me, but most importantly of all, as has been the focus here, if the question is whether trump not only just lied outright to his counsel but actually went and manufactured evidence, discussed other matters around declassification or how many documents there were, that goes right to his mindset and intent which is how you would then prove obstruction. >> charlie, i forget the ad campaign, but i think there's an app for that, or an interview on fox for that. in this case, trump has reportedly said to people trying to return the documents to their rightful owners, the various national security agencies and the national archives, quote,

they're mine. he said on hannity's show, he classified things by imagining them. he's not denying really much of what's been alleged. >> no, he's not. you know, but you ran through all of the things we know about donald trump, and this is one of the signature moves, of course, is that it's all in broad daylight. but i do think that at this moment, and i speak as another non-lawyer here, we need to be very clear about what we know and don't know. and we don't know exactly what is going on. we don't know how this is going to turn out. what we do apparently know, though, is that jack smith is moving with real speed at the moment toward what appears to be the terminus of these cases. i was on your show, i think it was last thursday, and i was complaining about the slow pace of the department of justice pointing out that it was more than two years since january 6th, and the moment that show ended, he began dropping

subpoenas, including a subpoena to the vice president, former vice president. these are the kinds of moves that a prosecutor makes when he is reaching the point where he is wrapping it up and getting toward a decision on whether to charge or whether not to charge. and again, we don't know where there is going. what we do know is i think he is moving with a good deal of dispatch at the moment. >> charlie, this is a little sort of trump rabbit hole, but boris epshteyn is back. let me read the reporting in the times on him. prosecutors overseeing the documents investigation have been asking witnesses questions about boris epshteyn who's played a role on coordinating lawyers. he brought corcoran into trump's orbit. one person briefed on the interviews said investigators were interested in

discussions. creating a kind of umbrella privilege allowing groups of lawyers and clients to communicate with each other confidentially. prosecutors are asking questions indicating they're interested in whether boris epshteyn was trying to improperly influence witness testimony. i could play some sound. i have it here, and it's pretty amazing, i'm not going to. he is another one of these people who was in the orbit. out of the orbit, and when trump left in disgrace, as the twice impeached, he returned to the orbit, and oversaw the recruitment of lawyers to potentially obstruct investigations in the classified materials. what are your thoughts about his reemergence? >> well, there are always these misfit toys at the center of every one of these scandals. i mean, boris epshteyn is like the driver of the clown car and the fact that he would have been

involved in the selection of lawyers in a case of this significance tells you a little bit about how business is conducted at mar-a-lago. but, again, a reminder and i apologize for repeating myself, but, you know, a clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower. you know, even though the former president surrounded himself with this almost unprecedented group of goof balls, they can do a lot of damage, and we have seen this, but anytime you have one of these stories where the decision making appears to be absolutely chaotic or completely irrational, all you need to do is sort of look under the rug, and you're going to find people like boris epshteyn crawling out once again, so this is so very much on brand for trump world. >> all right. no one's going to go anywhere. here's what we're going to do after the break. we've talked, i've talked in a rather unorganized way about what's public facing and what we

know as carol and everyone helps us plug in this new reporting. we'll bring you the full time line of what we know about the criminal investigation into the mishandling of documents at mar-a-lago and potential obstruction of justice. plus, late this afternoon, doj is closing its multiyears long investigation into congressman matt gaetz. it involved allegations of sex trafficking, child sex traffics, what was behind that decision, and what he could still be facing. we'll talk about that coming up in the show. later in the program, we'll dive into what a possible criminal indictment of an ex-president looks like, just hours away from the release of the key parts of the fulton county, georgia, special grand jury report. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team.

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. we're back with everybody. let me put this up, carol. you make a good point about not plugging in things that are unrelated. here are the dots that are publicly relatable. january 18th, 2023, the national archives retrieved 15 boxes from mar-a-lago. may 11th, 2022, doj subpoenas trump. june 3rd, 2022, trump's team met with doj. signing a letter saying there are no documents, attesting to the fact that there are no documents left at mar-a-lago. between that june 3rd attestation and august 8th, things happened and the fbi executes a search warrant and conducts a rather impressive search on the ex-president's private club and residence. november 4th, kash patel

testifies before the grand jury. i remember him receiving some version of limited immunity. november 18th, 2022, jack smith appointed as special counsel. january of 2023, is when we learn that evan corcoran who we have been talking about and christina bobb who signed that attestation with some caveats testified. all of this has been pulled together from the "washington post," "new york times," cnn and the "wall street journal." carol, to your point, i think when you look at this, the place where we actually have the least visibility is not the longest stretch. when doj released the affidavit, we figured out what was happening between the time he was subpoenaed. well, we figured out what was happening between the archives got 15 boxes and when doj gets involved. we figure out what's happening between when doj is involved and they execute a search warrant. they think they're being lied to. all of that evidence is the crush of the production. does this time line give you

clues into what those pieces might be that would give him the confidence to go before a judge to pierce attorney/client privilege. >> that's a great outline of the most important parts of this probe, but let's also remember the appointment of the special counsel. he comes on board, and he isn't actually in the country until basically christmas eve, and working in his office probably by shortly after christmas, but mostly the first week of january. so jack smith gets to washington, no pun intended, and has a lot of reading that he has been doing and more to do. more discussions with people about what was the status of this investigation, what did we bring in, what did we know. i would go so far as to say, based on our reporting, that he was getting up to speed on everything that had already been done and a lot had been done up until his appointment. prosecutors in the national security division and fbi agents

in the washington field office had witness testimony and video surveillance in july that made them very worried that donald trump and/or his aides were concealing some of the country's most highly guarded secrets, and were doing so basically in the government's face, and lying to them about the fact that no classified records remained at the property. none could remain. and that witness testimony is really what we don't have the best window into. i think both -- i would agree with both harry and frank and things they said earlier today. the things we don't know is what did the witnesses say about their interactions with donald trump and what they saw on the property. the video surveillance, we know what happened there. well, what led to the movement of those storage boxes. what were the specific instructions of donald trump and to whom? what was his role, and then

finally with evan corcoran, that diligent search, what we don't know is -- by the way, i just have to take a pause here and say one thing, which is when we learned thats aer was false, trying to look for clients records that are pure pursuant to a subpoena must be turned over. many said evan corcoran's letter, the one he drafted and that christina bobb signed, was not exactly the way they would have done it, not what they would have written. they would have written on information and belief, i looked in these places, i searched this, i was instructed blank, and now everything in that location has been provided. this one was a little more whiffy, so to speak, and what we don't know is did evan corcoran search that storage area because he was instructed by donald trump? this is the only place you need

to search. or did he search there because someone else told him that? because clearly he did not look in the president's office or residence because an august 8th raid found many more classified records, 18 of them top secret, after additional search, a surprised, unannounced search. >> and frank, just to build on carol's analysis and reporting, we learned in reporting in the fall, i believe both of these developments pre-date or coincide with jack smith's appointment, there was a valet, a former military aide, i think his name is mr. naruto who the government didn't think was truthful, who may have been involved in this alleged relocation of documents, and we also know that there are a lot of machinations behind kash patel's conditions for testifying, and he received some version of limited immunity, and

then we haven't heard much about either of those individuals since. >> yeah, i think the question is not really who was it that may have talked to the special counsel's office, but who was it that -- who didn't talk to the special counsel's office. i think the list of people grows, including as you said, the diet coke guy, the guy you're referring to is the guy allegedly who kept bringing the diet cokes to trump in the oval office when the buzzer was activated and left the government service and went to trump. people are facing the decision of their lifetime about talking. add to the list, and this is completely hypothetical, but i can tell you with certainty that after a footnote appeared in one of the trump team legal filings over the documents case, if there's a footnote in one of the filings that implied, hey, everything is cool in mar-a-lago, and safe and secure because you know the secret service sets up a special

security function to watch over my documents here. something to that effect. that was absolute horse manure, and i can tell you that folks at the secret service were livid that trump was implied that everything was great and kosher because the secret service protects the documents here. they do not. they do not, particularly for a former president, and so why am i bringing this up. hypothetically, add secret service to the list of people who might have said the guy is lying through his teeth. >> that's so interest. two pieces of business, the individual, i mispronounced his last name, walt, the former military valet who went to mar-a-lago with donald trump. to go back to the time line we started with, frank, i mean, this is the point in time at which the january 6th committee is going politically speaking guns ablazing at the secret service on the january 6th investigation, and so it would be an interesting, i won't call

it a coincidence but an interesting concurrence of events if they cooperated in the documents investigation. harry litman and charlie sykes, stick around when we come back, we'll dig into the decision not to charge matt gaetz with alleged child sex trafficking, a criminal who's now serving time, joel greenberg. criminal who's now serving time, joel greenberg y office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they also tell me they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied and unusual taste sensation. why wait? ask your eye doctor about a 90-day prescription for xiidra today.

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when you prosecute the tax collector, you have a false sense of security and complacency, that everything is fine, justice has been achieved, and we move on. really what i have seen is there is a more insidious backdrop to mr. greenberg, and he's only the tip of the sphere. >> it's a familiar pattern in these investigations that we cover over and over again here. that was fritz scheller on this program as our guest in december. his client has been at the center of the lengthy justice department investigation into whether republican congressman matt gaetz was part of a scheme that led to the sex traffics of a 17-year-old girl. these are allegations that gaetz has denied. today, nbc news learned from gaetz' attorneys that they were informed by doj that doj has ended its probe, and that gaetz will not be charged with any

crimes. the doj's decision lifts a heavy and serious legal burden that has hung over gaetz for years now. it began in december of 2020 when the fbi seized his cell phone and it comes just months after scheller's client joel greenberg was sentenced to eleven years in prison, involving the same woman. and warned gaetz should be warned based on what my client knows. the judge in this case admitted that they had quote provided substantial cooperation to the government, more than i have seen in 22 years. wow. let's bring in dave aaronberg, state attorney for palm beach county, florida, harry litman, and charlie sykes are with us. nbc reported back in october that attorneys involved in this case knew that the hang up for doj was concerns about the credibility of two key witnesses, and i believe that reporting made clear that that

was joel greenberg who's now in jail and the alleged underaged woman at the center of the child sex trafficking allegations. >> yeah, nicolle, that's the key to this is the lack of corroboration of these two key witnesses. now, i thought that matt gaetz's ex-girlfriend who was given immunity to testify before the grand jury, and has no ax to grind with her ex-boyfriend, they're apparently friends, apparently she didn't provide enough corroborating evidence. she was close to not only matt gaetz but the alleged victim. the doj was not going to put on case against matt gaetz based on the testimony of a convicted liar, like joel greenberg who tried to frame someone else for child sex trafficking and the alleged victim who lied about her age to put a profile on the seeking arrangements web site. so it looks like this case is now at an end.

>> harry, i won't touch that matt gaetz's girlfriend is friends with the victim who is allegedly the 17-year-old with whom he had sex, but what does it say to you? this case i believe was opened under bill barr, continued for two years under merrick garland. we saw the receipts of the transactions and the testimony of joel greenberg was deemed credible, not just by doj but by this judge that resulted in a significantly shorter sentence. and the facts haven't -- other than matt gaetz's denial, which is only, a lot of the paper document corroborations seem indisputable? >> yeah, all true, and by the way, this woman, the ex-girlfriend, was sort of the purveyor of the victim as it were. but, yeah, all kinds of documents. it doesn't seem much doubt that it happened, and moreover, under federal law it's weird, but it was basically strict liability. if the victim was 17 at the time, he was guilty of sex trafficking under federal law.

if she wasn't, he was guilty of basically nothing under federal law. we don't know about state law. so the fact that they were worried, as dave says, about the credibility of him and joel greenberg who was crowing before, basically making it seems like he was bringing gaetz down just says volumes because it was less about whether it happened but just how it would look on the stand, how tawdry the whole thing might be and the like. gaetz has dodged not just a bullet by a cannon ball. it seemed very serious for a time, and the decision seemed premised not exactly on the evidence but just on how kind of difficult the presentation would be, how hard the cross-examinations of the two critical witnesses would be. so it's closed off. one more quick point. they did it just the right way here as opposed to to say, jim comey, and hillary clinton. a letter goes to him, he's been publicly, you know, knowing he's

being charged. no charges and no more comment. so we're not going to hear and we shouldn't be hearing about how he might have been 50% guilty. the doj doesn't charge him, and they shut up. >> dave, what does it mean that one of the participants in the trip across state lines, which i think is what made it fall into the federal jurisdiction in the first place was convicted with the same crime with the same person and they had the goods, how do you avoid the perception that i think fritz is alluding to that doj flinched when it was a more powerful person? >> well, you know, it's a good point, nicolle. it's not good for optics. joel greenberg confessed, he admitted it. that's why they're able to get a conviction against him. he went down for 11 years. remember, he could have gotten life if prison. child sex trafficking was the big whammy. greenberg cooperated so much and ratted out so many people that

he only got eleven years, and other people are going to prison because of joel greenberg's testimony. one person who will not is matt gaetz. it's hard to avoid the perception that because he was a member of congress he was treated differently, and he was because they know at doj about the political ramifications. so they were extra careful here, but in the end, they've got to prove cases beyond any reasonable doubt. and these prosecutors believe that unless they had better corroboration they were not going to get matt gaetz for these charges. >> charlie, i'm thinking as i'm having this conversation of mitt romney on the floor telling george santos he's a sick puppy, and matt gaetz is still a pretty sick puppy on fox news saying there's nothing left to extort kevin mccarthy for, he was the tip of the sphere, if you will, if ousting liz cheney from congress because she believed in telling the truth about trump's role in plotting january 6th. he is still, his public perception is still of a

gleeful, villainous, loathsome figures, and one of the most powerful people in kevin mccarthy's congress today. >> and he will be more powerful as a result of this. he was no chagrinned that he was under this cloud for some time. it's a reminder that it's one thing to report something, believe it, and quite another to be a federal prosecutor and bring these kinds of charges that you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and the reality is this has always been a big question mark over this. joel greenberg may be one of the most, shall we say, you know, challenging witnesses to rely upon if you are a prosecutor. so matt gaetz will continue his deplorable career, but he won't have to worry about this. and i have to say that even though he might have skated on this particular charge. it's not really that surprising,

and i'm not going to accuse the department of justice of blinking here because of the nature of the testimony they would have had to rely on. this is part of the problem that sleazy characters will often surround themselves with other sleazy characters who make for questionable witnesses and, right now, that's working in matt gaetz's favor. >> last question for you, dave. would it have been something they looked at that matt gaetz was concerned enough to have a federal pardon, did they look at it and find he committed so many crimes, it wasn't for child sex trafficking? >> it's a good point, why would you ask for a pardon unless you were guilty of something. he asked for a complete pardon because it wasn't just child sex trafficking here, it was witness tampering, campaign finance violations. antiprostitution law. identity theft, and it looks like he's going to be able to skate on all of them, and yeah, because he's a member of congress, they were extra

careful, they brought in additional prosecutors from main justice so no one could accuse them of being political, but in the end, they never reached that higher level, that burden that they could prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and it came back to corroboration for the main charges. as far as the other charges, i don't know what they had. i'm surprised. i thought it would be more likely he would be found guilty or charged on the lesser charges than child sex trafficking but here we are. >> here we are. dave aaronberg, thank you, harry litman and charlie sykes, stick around. a judge ruling that a lawsuit against fox news for lies broadcast about the 2020 election can continue. we'll tell you about that development next. continue. we'll tell y aoubout that development next

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it's quviviq. ask your doctor if it's right for you. ♪ ♪ your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire there are some who want to divide us, to make a political point or turn a profit. joe biden just wants to get things done. in just two years, joe biden's done a lot. biden brought both parties together to rebuild our roads and bridges and passed laws that lower the cost of prescription drugs, deliver clean drinking water,

and bring manufacturing jobs back to america. president biden knows we can get more done if we come together. because joe biden's a president for all americans. it's way beyond what people think including a very, very dangerous foreign company that did the votes in 27 states, a company that's not american, a company that's foreign, a company that has close, close ties with venezuela and therefore china. and it appears it's venezuelan company software been used to steal elections in other countries. the software they use is done by a company called smartmatic. >> the president's lawyers alleging a company called dominion which they say started in venezuela with cuban money and the assistance of smartmatic

software, a back door is capable of flipping votes. the media has no interest in any of this, but you and i do as we should because 73 million americans voted for donald trump. >> i literally can't listen to anything she says because her cadence is mesmerizing. those baseless lies made by rudy giuliani and judge junear piro about the voting technology company smartmatic all there on the air for everyone to see will be crucial pieces of evidence in one of the defamation lawsuits against fox news. the network lost its latest attempt to dismiss the $2.7 billion suit that accuses fox of spreading lies about the 2020 election. the court concluding there were significant allegations that fox news, its anchors, and guests claimed that smartmatic helped flip votes to then democratic nominee joe biden. with this ruling smartmatic will

continue its fight against hosts like maria, and trump allies like rudy giuliani. fox has said its claims are protected under the first amendment of the constitution, and they say they'll ultimately prevail. harry and charlie are back with us. harry, what does this say to you? >> it's very significant. it's a huge price tag. there have been very, very few cases, nicole in the modern era where people have successfully brought down companies, but this seems different. it's not just it was false but they need to prove those guys knew or reckless disregard that it was false. so now that a motion to dismiss has been denied, we're going to get into some very gnarly discovery for fox. it was a 5-0 decision by the court of appeals keeping the case alive and reinstating counts against the two

miscreants you showed at the top of this segment, giuliani and host janine piro. we also have tucker carlson, rupert murdock, a lot of fox corporate folks that knew the allegations, that this was all garbage and did it anyway for ratings and anything other than actual news coverage. so this could be big, and it's the kind of suit now that we're past the motion to dismiss that isn't going away and smartmatic and dominion don't want to seem to just settle. they seem to want to make a public demonstration of the lies of fox and their hosts told. >> you know, charlie, i've got a lot bit of visibility into some of the people working on the public relations piece of all this. and you talk about what we again as non-lawyers understand about actual malice, and i believe they have this company dead to rights. also when i cover stories that happened a long time ago i like

to go back to the actual facts to root myself in reality because trump world takes you so far away from it. do you know where smartmatic was used in 2020? do you know? l.a. county that's it. >> one county. >> right, the claims are so detached from reality that you have to wonder if any of these people were ever in a room with a real lawyer. >> no, this is an extraordinary lawsuit, and fox is in big trouble. this was a terrible legal defeat. i've been in the media for a long time. i've followed libel suits. as harry points out the bar is high. you have to establish they acted in reckless disregard of the truth, and you watch the clips you played from fox again and again that is textbook reckless disregard of the truth.

it is falsehoods repeated again and again. and the fact is they have told it was false, they knew it was false. and so you're looking at a lawsuit. the top line is $2.7 billion. that's a lot of money even for the fox corporation, and i think this litigation is going to get messier. as harry pointed out now you're going into a completely new area of discovery where people are going to be under oath, and i think you're going to find out how -- how incredibly dishonest the process was. this poses -- this lawsuit is not just one of many other lawsuits. i think this kind of lawsuit may provide us the kind of accountability that has been -- you know, that has escaped us so far. but it also potentially poses an existential threat to any of these alternative reality media that think they have a license

to traffic in this kind of falsehood. so this is worth keeping a very bright spotlight on, and they really have to be nervous in the fox -- in the fox corporate suites about this lawsuit. >> and they have all the internal communications between the anchors and producers where they make clear i imagine people who think and live on earth, one, knew these were false claims. >> that's what they got already. as charlie suggests this really goes to the heart of is fox a news enterprise or just a kind of maga entertainment package. the money could be big, the reputational hit could be huge. >> harry litman, and charlie psyches, thanks for spending the hour with us. up next around here what next to expect from the fulton county d.a. tomorrow. we'll tell you about it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. about it aft quick break. don't go anywhere. w. which stands for skilled hands at work.

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can you give us any idea now that since you testified before judge mcburny, can you give us an update on the time frame of a decision might be made. >> we're still working. hi there, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york now. we're still working, those are the most recent tea leaves we can read made public by fulton county d.a. faunae willis. she's the individual who may be the closest human right now who's considering indicting the ex-president. tomorrow we'll get a glimpse whether charges for trump

stemming from willis' probe could be on the way over his efforts to overturn the election in 2020. he'll release three excerpts of the report from the now completed special grand jury. the sections of the introduction, the conclusion and section 8, that's where the grand jury discusses its concern some witnesses may have lied under oath during their testimony. the names won't be revealed in that section released tomorrow, but judge mcburny did acknowledge the grand jury does name names in the report. he said this, quote, indeed it provided the d.a. with exactly what she requested, the roster of. the statement went further giving this little hint that we could glean something from tomorrow's release. quote, while publication may not be convenient for the pacing of the d.a.'s investigation the compelling public interest in these proceedings and the

unquestionable value and importance of transparency require their release. willis' investigation has been characterized by some legal experts as the probe that could be the most potentially damaging for trump. a november report by the brookings institute analyzed public reporting and evidence and concluded this, quote, trump's post election conduct in georgia leaves him at substantial risk of possible state charges predicated on ultple crimes. these charges potentially include criminal solicitation to commit election fraud, intentional interference with performance of election duties, conspiracy to commit election fraud, criminal solicitation, and state racketeer influenced corrupt organizations. so she and her team are in her words still working, the rest of the country i don't know what the word is anxiously awaits any determination or decision on

whether she'll take this extraordinary step, a possible criminal charge which could have colossal impact of the next president. it would be the first time the next president is indicted. cbs news reports this, quote, if willis brings charges against the former president and current contender for the 2024 nomtags, she could be positioned to mount a high profile prosecution in a county courthouse that has previously permitted cameras and live television coverage. the potential for it to become a riveting national spectacle or even a circus is hard to ignore. waiting for a potential possible indictment by the fulton county d.a. ahead of tomorrow's relose of portions of of the special grand jury's report is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. washington correspondent for the atlantic journal constitution tia mitchell is back. also joining us andrew wiseman, former just department prosecutor as well as a senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. with me at the table former top

state department official rick stengel. he's also the host of the podcast "mandela the lost tapes." tell us what you understand district attorney faunae willis to mean when she says, quote, we're still working. >> well, it means hurry-up and wait is how we're interpreting it. at one point she said imminent and i think us reporters thought it could be any day now. it could be some time, days, weeks even before the district attorney is ready to announce an indictment. she could do so at any time but she's taking her time. she clearly wants to make sure she builds what she feels is the strongest case possible for whoever she does decide to go to the actual regular grand jury and attempt to indict.

>> tia, were you surprised to find that it believes several -- i don't think we have the number but several witnesses lied. >> yeah, i think that was surprising. we've been a lot of times comparing what the special grand jury was able to obtain in contrast, for example, to the january 6th committee as well as the department of justice investigation. and we know for the january 6th committee they did have concerns about testimony not necessarily because they felt people lied, but in their case there were people who chose to ignore those -- those requests for subpoenas and things like that. and so now with this criminal case in georgia, in this special grand jury which did move forward with subpoenas and were able to get testimony from people that the january 6th committee did not hear from, now we hear this new wrinkle which

is, yeah, we did get to hear from some people but perhaps some of these new witnesses we believe weren't exactly forthcoming. now, again, this portion of the report we expect to receive tomorrow will not name names, so the question is will there be enough detail there that we can try to infer who they were talking about. we just don't know. >> andrew wiseman, let me bring you in on this. let me put this up, and again we don't know if people who the special grand jury believes lied to it are on this list, but this is a list of some of the top names who were subpoenaed by the fulton county special grand jury. lindsey graham, rudy giuliani, mark meadows, cassidy hutchinson, jody heist, brad raffensperger, pat cipollone, governor kemp -- i'm not good at percentages but i think you can put it at about 75% of people

who have lied and lied in public and brazenly. so really it could be anyone's guess who might have lied to a special grand jury. what do you make of that development and what we'll know about it tomorrow? >> a few things. one, i think if you put it together with your coverage in the past hour about what jack smith is looking at with respect to mr. corcoran, you really have what is a little window into what it's like to bring a public corruption case, meaning you deal with lying eyewitnesses every day. you see that jack smith is contending with that and trying to figure out who was to blame for the false certification that was given to the department of justice in june. i think what we're going to see tomorrow is the grand jury saying that they have strong concerns about various people telling things that were false. and by the way it's hard to not

take a shot at mike flynn has admitted that he lied to a judge in connection with his sentencing. so the idea that he would take his oath to testify before the grand jury, you know, any less seriously or more seriously, you know, is -- seems pretty clear. but this is commonplace. this is one of the real challenges in doing a public corruption case is that, unfortunately, you deal with people who get their stories straight and tailor their testimony to what they think is their best avenue to avoid accountability. and i think it's -- it's going to be interesting, and i think it's very useful for the public to see a grand jury that is common, normal people reacting to what they saw. i think it's going to be useful for jack smith to be presenting his evidence to a federal judge about why he thinks there's the

same thing going on. but, unfortunately, i think it is unfortunately commonplace in these kind of investigations. >> what remedy exists for it? do we just say these people told the truth, the special grand jury believes these people lied, and oh, well, we'll try someone else? what happens? >> nicolle, the remedy is you charge people. again, just to relate it to the special counsel mueller investigation one of the reasons that we charged people with lying is because we felt that there had to be consequences for people doing that. and by the same token donald trump astutely attacked us for bringing what he derisively called process crimes, but it's those process crimes that really ensure that the system can work better. because if you don't prosecute it, then it really becomes much more rampant. there are people who will be deterred because they'll be concerned about going in and

lying, so you end up getting at least some greater percentage of people telling the truth if you actually bring charges. and so one of things that's unusual here is that we haven't actually seen that yet in connection with any of these cases at the state level or federal level. it's one of it most unusual things i think about all these investigations is we're not seeing those kinds of charges being brought by prosecutors. >> why do you think that is? >> so i think at the federal level i think it's because they were sort of late to get started. and i think that we may see that, but i think that i don't think they were really focusing on what the higher ups until the january 6th investigation. i do think that with jack smith that we could end up seeing that as they make those kinds of cases. and with respect to faunae willis, it'll be really

interesting to see whether she among other charges of those sort of election type crimes that you mentioned, whether there are also these sort of run of the mill charges of making false statements to the grand jury, which are, you know, very important cases to bring. but we'll get a window into that tomorrow. >> let me, again, with all things trump i like to come back to the beginning of the beginning. and the call he described i don't know if this was the perfect call to zelenskyy but this was one of his perfect calls to raffensperger. listen. >> you're going to find which is totally illegal. it's more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did, and you're not reporting it. you know, that's a criminal -- that's a criminal offense. and you can't let that happen. that's a big risk to you and to ryan, your lawyer. that's a big risk.

but they are threading ballots in my opinion based on what i heard, and they are removing machinery, and they're moving it as fast as they can. both of which a criminal finds and you can't let it happen and you are letting it happen. i'm notifying you you're letting it happen. so, look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. >> i mean it's like a pupuplatter of incriminating comments. first of all what we now know -- i remember when that transcript came out i listened to the whole thing once. i think i played it and the insurrection happened two days later and got wiped off the news. you look at what happened during the january 6th hearings when he's talking about crimes we

know richard clark who was going to disgorge what was left thereafter bill barr left mr. donohue and mr. rosen we know what he had done and meadows had traveled to georgia to do was overturn the results of georgia. we also heard him say he won more than biden. i mean he knows exactly how many votes needs to be manufactured. how does that not play to a jury that he was trying to steal georgia? >> well, i hope that's what she's investigating. i mean i'm so glad you play it because i forgot about the early part of the conversation -- >> it's hidden crimes. >> right in a mafioso way this could be a problem for you. yes, so he was threatening him, nen he asked for the votes to overturn the election. yes, i'm glad you played it. but the whole grand jury, the special grand jury is about finding a road map to solve

those problems, to indict people for defrauding the american public, for trying to overturn the election. we also forget about the phony elector scheme which 16 people from fulton county signed. those people have to be under investigation as well. i do think it'll be a momentous thing if there's an indictment, and i think the fact that it's local, that it's state will actually have more authenticity and power for americans because it's like, wow, these are local laws they violated to try to overturn the election. they've done a pretty good job of trying to show the justice department is somehow not objective, but a local lawyer violating local law i think people will go, wow, that's something. >> well, i usually hate and better if this one doesn't, anyone think trump broke a law in the jurisdiction would hold him to the same standard as you or me if we broke a law in their jurisdiction. georgia is different. it's run by trump supporters and

surrogates. governor kemp was a trump supporter, brad raffensperger until he became trump's nemesis was a trump backer and trump supporter. this is a state run by trump supporters. >> yes, these are people who are standing up for law over party. brad raffensperger has been a profile on courage like this even though he was once upon a time in the tank. but it's like it's such a clear violation. that call, can you find me 11,800 votes, i mean that should just be in red and bold every time people talk about this. >> we'll do that. we'll play it every day until -- andrew wiseman, i want to come back to you on something david write's in "the new york times" under scrutiny here. georgia law prohibits, quote, criminal solicitation to commit election fraud. and a person solicits, requests, commands, and protends or otherwise causes the person to engage in conduct that would be a felony under georgia election law. moreover georgia law makes it a

felony to conspire to commit election fraud and the crime is complete when conspiracy or agreement is effective and overact or furtherance thereof has been committed. in other words, the conspiracy doesn't have to succeed to be criminal. trump didn't have to overturn his defeat in georgia, just had to close the loop. and again the call seemed to go a long way toward proving what happened. >> absolutely. the law makes total sense here. you want to deter people from attempting to do this. you don't want to say, oh, we're only going to prosecute if you actually succeed. and it's also important to remember that in addition to the really damning taped call there also are other people who on behalf of the trump campaign and it must be with trump's knowledge were doing the same thing. so you have rudy giuliani who was entertaining the

legislature, you have lindsey graham. there's other evidence to support not just that tape but the grand scheme here. as you said and pointed out in the tape there is, frankly, a form of extortion that is going on, and it is, unfortunately, you have to say just like a mob boss. and that itself is a crime. if you are trying to extort somebody to break the law, which is to my mind is clearly what was going on, when you hear that tape as a former prosecutor i say, you know what, i'm happy to take that to a jury and let 12 people decide because they don't think that's extortion by the former president, so be it. i think it's plain on the face. and this is where you don't want prosecutors to get too wrapped up in legalistics. of course you have to follow the law, but here you have to rely on people's common sense listening to that tape recording and knowing what's going on. >> tia, i want to ask you about

any logistics that we know to be under way. i mean obviously rick made the good point this is happening at a local level as opposed to a doj prosecution or charging decision. does that complicate things? i mean does she have to be in touch with people who live out-of-state, for example, ron desantis if she's looking at donald trump? >> well, i think that logistically, yes, it's a local entity. but fulton county has had many high profile cases and some big cases have come before that courthouse. so they'll be used to the potential or prepared for the potential of a big circus. now logistically faunae willis has had and the special grand jury has had to coordinate with potential witnesses and folks like that from all across the state. i don't necessarily know if ron desantis, for example -- for example, lindsey graham and mark

meadows, rudy giuliani, for example, they've had to coordinate with out-of-state witnesses. so i think they're prepared. again, fulton county is a major courthouse, major entity. i think the logistics part might be the least of their worries. i think what faunae willis is worried about at this point is building the case so that on the day she's ready to go before the world and quite frankly we know the eyes on the world will be on her that day when she goes before the cameras and makes her announcement that she can stand behind it and is willing to withstand the questions in the trials to come. >> tia mitchell, andrew wiseman, thank you so much for starting us off on this story. much more ahead on this front. rick sticks around. when we come back the disaster in ohio is spreading today. there's a toxic plume of hazardous chemicals released

after a train went off the tracks is now moving further downstream. there are growing fears among frightened residents who say they do not feel safe and a lengthy cleanup has just begun. an environmental activist on where east palestine goes from here after a quick break. we're so excited about that. plus a major protest at the florida statehouse led by our friend and colleague the reverend al sharpton to stop florida ron desantis from whitewashing black history from that state's schools. the reverend will join us from tallahassee along with joy reid later in the hour. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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i've had a migraine, i've been dizzy. all my mucus membranes irritated. i haven't felt well since then. >> if the ground is poisoned, the water is poisoned it's a farm anymore. >> all our fish are dead. >> our lips and mouths started to burn, our tongues started to swell up. it was like a stinging burn and our eyes were watering, our eyes were burning, and we realized, yeah, we couldn't stay here. >> what is your biggest concern? >> that i'm going to get cancer and die. >> horrific. concerned residents of east palestine, ohio, and the surrounding areas opening up for reporters talking about their fears for their health and safety and the health and safety of their families, the farms, and their pets. after a train operated by norfolk southern derailed exposing that community to toxic

chemicals. one of the the problems appears to be growing with the toxic plume that is now moving down the ohio river toward west virginia where officials there have said they're taking extra steps to monitor water quality. but residents of east palestine and surrounding areas remain very angry and scared and confused by the official response there. residents had been told that it was safe to return to their homes and communities and that their water was safe to drink, but never mind that, they're now being advised to bring bottled water only, and norfolk southern has admitted it has no idea how much of the chemicals have gotten into the soil there. our next guest puts it this way, quote, a train derails, they tell the community to evacuate, they tell them to go home, they tell them everything's fine. and then they tell them on second thought don't drink the water. it's hard to believe people are scared and confused. joining us now erin brockovich.

she was instrumental in helping to sue giant pg&e for its contamimation of drinking water in a town in the '90s. tell me how this got on your radar and how with your expertise you understand the situation to be unfolding in what is like a horror movie in realtime for these people. >> it does feel that way. well, hi, nicolle, and i thank you for having me on. and how i got involved in this situation is how i get involved in so many environmental disasters throughout the country. whenever there's a water contamination or environmental issue it kind of goes along with the movie so people will e-mail me. so this train derailment happened february 3rd as early as friday on the 4th in the

morning i started getting e-mails from the community. but, you know, what was going on, there were concerns, the misinformation they were getting. and here we are 12 days in and we're still not getting the information. this community is getting more and more angry, more and more concerned, more and more fearful. and the frustration just got worse yesterday because we're creating such a distrust with this community in believing what they're hearing. after everything and even in the absence of testing in my opinion to even deem it was safe for them to go home, they're now told we have a water issue and to drink bottled water. so i'm genuinely involved because the community will reach out to me when these situations happen. >> you've got some very practical advice for people in the community. will you talk about that?

>> what frustrates me the most -- and listening to some of those people from east palestine before i came on just almost gets my heart racing and gets me very upset because more often than not we aren't listening to or paying attention to the very people that we should be. those that were in harms way, those that are living in it, breathing in it, experiencing it, and we're not learning or listening from them. rather the narrative will come from what an agency is telling them or who the defendant in this case norfolk railroad and the testing that they're doing. and they want to believe in that, but their symptoms continue. and they are worried. their animals are dying. all of us are watching this unfold. what i want to say to them is you have got to use your best common senses.

i can't share enough with you, nicolle, working across this country and these issues especially with their moms, they know it's instinctual. we're not getting the answers we need. they need to stay strong as a community. they need to ask questions, they need to demand answers, and they need to rely on that instinct. if they don't feel safe, get out. if they don't feel safe coming home yet, don't go home. heed the issues about drinking bottled water, and this is really important for people on their own private wells because they're going to have to do their own testing. so the most porn thing that they can do and i see them do it all the time often when they band together, when they stay as a community, they use that common sense, they listen to those instincts, they can protect themselves even though there's an absence of data at this

point. >> erin, we have the pictures up while you're talking of the plume of smoke. in all of your years of this work is it ever safe to be standing where that plume of smoke is above your head? >> no, and common sense would tell you that. and this is why they don't believe what's going on as this plume continues to go on. they're smelling it, they're tasting it, and this is something today that i became concerned about that i would really like to share with you. we are focusing and hearing about the vinyl chloride. but there's another compound out there that they're not really sharing much about and it's the butyl aprolate. so they're saying and what we do know at this very moment that it has been detected outside of the containment area in the creeks

headed for the rivers. what worries me about this chemical is what they're not testing for, the additive to that chemical. that additive is benzene. we haven't been confirmed that they're testing for that, but that becomes another very large big game changer. are these people being exposed to benzene? if they are we need to start doing blood draws immediately. and is that benzene headed to the ohio river? is it going to the mississippi? we're going all the way down to louisiana. they're prepared and they know it's coming to shutdown their intake valves that will allow it to pass by, but it won't evaporate or sab sorb in the water. and so at this point i'd really like to know that information because they need to start setting up boons as well, and communities need to be on higher alert about benzene.

and we need to know. and that's the thing that's so maddening for me our own agencies and the lack of information and data sets that are coming out that even put them in a position to deem it safe to come back. so the community needs to be on high alert and know what's happening and be prepared. and at this point they're going to have to really protect themselves until we know for fact what is or isn't and what chemicals are or aren't in that community and burning in that plume. >> thank you for your work on this. in 2015, erin, there was a similar derailment in north dakota and the obama administration passed regulations asking for electronic numatic brakes for trains that have this kind of material on it. that regulation was overturned by the trump administration in 2018. i don't know if that would have made a difference, but i wonder

you mention agencies, i wonder whether you have a view of that. >> well, do. i mean i've talked often about infrastructure problems that exist throughout the country, and with the rail system we have our own infrastructure problems. we need to look at that. we need to know why the train was derailed, and for me what i worry about within the community so as parallels are going on here and in the focus of what's most important, the politics that can get involved just become so convoluted and such a fight that i don't want us to miss the focus of this community and this area of the massive ground water contamination and destruction of our rivers we could be looking at, the impacts to health and welfare. but, yes, this conversation is going to be had, and it's going to be a political firestorm, if you ask me about rules and

regulations with the railroad industry and failing infrastructure. and i think we're going to have to look at that, but for me my focus is going to stay on this community, what they're not telling us, what i feel is being covered up and the severity and impact this could be to public health and welfare, the land, the air, the soil, and our water. >> erin, we're going to continue to call on you on this. you have both a special, specific expertise but also a real compassion for the human beings who are enduring the unthinkable, going about their lives and now they're afraid to drink the water in their own wells. it's just an unbelievable event. thank you so much for spending time with us and thank you, my friend, for being at the table for this. >> when we come student activists, students, teachers and families all led by the reverend al sharpton and fighting back against governor ron desantis' efforts. what they're doing in the face of an unprecedented assault on

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the power of his office, state office to essentially banish black history from the classroom. today, though, a show of force from advocates for such knowledge this afternoon at the state capitol in tallahassee a united front of students, teachers, elected officials, civil rights leaders and clergy made clear they're not going to let the whitewashing happen without a fight. the reverend al sharpton of the national action network is there in a david versus goliath. >> i said we'll open up the history books and tell the whole story about ourselves to pave a way for the children. we'll stand together, we'll fight together.

>> joining us now live from tallahassee, florida, the reverend al sharpton, the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and the president of the national action network. also joining us msnbc correspondent trymaine lee and joy reid is here, the host of "the reid out." i watched your speech as much as i could find. tell me about the rallying cry and the response to it. >> well, the rallying cry came from faith leaders, student leaders, a lot of students, hundreds of students and many civil rights groups really standing up saying they're not going to let this governor tamper with history. they're really talking about censorship here. and even though they said, no, no we're doing black history but they're being very selective, and they're really trying to tamp down parts of the story

that points out the contradictions in american history and what we had to overcome. and it's not in a negative, it's to show the strength of people. you can't talk about american history without talking what about what blacks and women and the lgbtq people went through. and desantis wants to pivot his campaign for president -- i call them baby trump. he wants to be baby trump and do it in a different way to pit us one against another, americans against another type of american. and we are not going to allow that to happen. just like we had to fight educational segregation with a governor standing in the door, we will not have another governor standing in the wy of history. >> rev, one thing -- i've been covering the story for a long time here, but why does one want to erase the history? what evidence does the right point to suggest that learning

today the history of racism in this country and learning history does any harm today? the opposite appears to be true. >> i think that he wants to make a racial divide to energize a far-right base that his mental and political donald trump did to win the nomination and go on and run in the general election. you have to remember trump, what did he use? he used that barack obama is not a real american, and he started with he's really born in kyiv race card. and what desantis is doing is a race card at the expense of the minds of students, blacks, whites, and others. and he shouldn't be allowed to do it. one of the reasons why today's march was important and hundreds came out is to say there's going to be a backlash.

we did not take it from daddy trump, we won't take it from baby trump. >> joy, you've got an hour on this and when i say you've been preaching this tell us what you're doing tonight. >> we're going to talk with professors, talk with stakeholders, talk with tumain lee, people covering the story but also people impacted by it right now. because you have to realize, nicolle, it is a political stunt on desantis' part. this is the gambit as the rev said of getting this nomination. this state has 67 counties. only 11 of them are fully following the law that has existed since 1994 that mandates african american studies be taught in k-12 education. desantis and the republicans who run the state legislature has

been underfunding by hundreds of thousands, maybe up to millions of dollars the programs that are supposed to fully implement the study of african american history, and they have outlawed the conversation about reparations. why is that law in place? because there was a massacre in a place called rosewood in this state and there were reparations paid to the people in this community that was wiped out, burned to the ground, only a plaque left where this prosperous black community used to be. it's not clear it's legal to teach about rosewood, which was a massacre that happened in florida. it's not clear it's legal to teach about the reparations that were actually paid to surviving families from rosewood. it's not clear, nicolle, it's legal to teach about the history of the old statehouse, which is right next to where the rally took place today. that is where florida declared itself a part of the confederacy and seceded to protect and

defend slavery. so ron desantis has been waging a full-scale war against the black past and only the black past, but i think that's an important point. i spoke with some students today, high school students who are ninth graders, freshmen, and they said they would love to take this class. i believe one was latino, one was asian american and they should they felt it was important to understand all of history and it was important to take ap classes so they would be more attractive to colleges. and their concern is if this is taken away, they will not be competitive with students from other states, so desantis is hurting students who aren't black as well in this state, and they also talked about the discomfort factor. it's illegal to make white people feel uncomfortable in florida if you can believe that. >> what does that mean? what does that mean and where does it stop?

do you teach about suffrage? do they know women didn't vote? do you teach about -- what does that mean? what does that mean? >> i don't know because it doesn't seem to be illegal to teach the things that make african americans uncomfortable. as the rev pointed out today there's been confederate statues across the south and that makes black folks uncomfortable. they don't think that should be illegal. it's siphoning off only white students to say you can't teach history that makes them feel badly. why wouldn't they identify with white abolitionists when you talk about slavery. you just assume maybe he identifies with the bad guy and he assumes kids will, too. kids are a lot smarter than desantis, and i'll say one last thing. i think based on the response that i had seen just in talking to folks here in tallahassee today this was a tremendous political error on ron desantis'

part. he was on a glide path to potentially be competitive with trump for the nomination. he says he does not like wokeness to paraphrase the rev today. he has put power into wokeness because folk here are now fully awake. they understand who he is and what he is and what he's pushing. he didn't like wokeness, he's going to get more wokeness than he ever thought. he has now taken the african american community and made them his primary opponent. ask anybody, you don't want that if you want to be president. >> trymaine, i know you travel this country all the time and you hear from people, and the reality in peoples lives is often so distant from sort of the fox news greenroom where a lot of republican ideas and ideology is hatched, frankly, these days. what is sort of the reality on the ground just to pick up on

joy's reporting about kids of all races feeling deprived of access to the ap course, for example? >> nicolle, i think joy and rev hit it right on the head talking to folks, this isn't just political weaponry, this isn't being politicized and weaponized for public sake, this is deeply personal for a lot of people especially here in florida. this is the deep south. and some of the first black feet to ever touch this continent landed here in florida first. talking to folks out here today members of the old, young, clergy, officials, i talked about how deeply painful this is because talking to former teachers who say i have to contort myself and i can't even speak to my own history, i can't speak to my student's history. and another retired teacher said, you know, it's one thing to kind of cut away the bad parts of this country what white folks have done to black people, the experience we've had but what about the greatness? you're also shaving that off as

well. the disconnect between what we're seeing on fox news, and the way it's politicized and this idea of wokeness in the first place -- they really should have said black that's what it seems like. there was marjorie taylor greene at the super bowl who said it was great but we don't need to deal with all that wokeness. the disconnect between what's happening on television and the real world are worlds apart. but we see here in florida those things colliding. >> reverend, i want to ask you because you made the point about trump being sort of the birth mother, if you will, of all this. you know, he rose to national prominence at the same time learned about the grab them in the you know where tape, and republicans and his voters said, women, oh, well. he ran on an anti-immigrant build the wall and as president build as sadistic a wall as

anyone could conjure up in their wildest dreams. during the protest around the country after george floyd was murdered we know from reporting that's come out he wanted to shoot them, the protesters. the kkk rally where they're chanting jews will not replace many white students are saying, as georgia said, that they want to learn the whole history. once you start cutting off history, you can cut it off anywhere on anybody. once you open that door it goes everywhere. let's not forget, trump started his political career on nepotism. that's how he started. and he went, as president,

talking about when the looting starts the shooting starts? all of this, one right after the other, which is why i'm not just getting the hashtag saying he is baby trump. he is playing the trumpet handbook. taking migrants and flying them to martha's vineyard. he is using the trump playbook and he must be stopped. what he didn't expect was to see people rise up. something happened where george floyd happened. at rallies there were more whites than blacks. people are not asleep. they call it woke? it's that people are looking at what they are seeing and desantis doesn't understand that playbook this time. hundreds of his citizens showed that today in huge numbers it is only going to get worse. we will not let them turn history around and sanitize it their way which is really a distortion, rather than sanitizing.

>> joy is hosting a special edition of the readout at 7:00 p.m. right here on msnbc. to you all, thank you so much for spending time with us and for all of your action and reporting on this. it's really important. we will be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred.

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for his family and for his community. in black because we are still grieving. >> we will continue to elevate and be everything that you are not. everything you hate and everything you intended to destroy. >> extraordinary moment today in buffalo. emotion and anger directed at the shooter who killed 10 innocent people last may in a grocery store. a hate filled, racist, senseless act of violence today has the perpetrator in prison on life without parole. the gunman was escorted out. according to the associated press, you don't know what we are going through. we will be right back.

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thank you for letting us into your home during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts now. hi, ari. >> welcome to the beat. i'm ari melber. we have an exclusive tonight. a convicted figure from trump world. giuliani is here on the beat for the first time since going to jail. this interview is tonight. i can tell you the facts of the matter, you won't see it anywhere else. stay with us. also tonight, special counsel