>> quickly for you, finally, mark meadows, cnn's reporting has been subpoenaed by jack smith. we don't yet nbc have that. we haven't match that although kudos to cnn for breaking that, if it's true. what do you think about that? >> he's obviously a material witness. i come back to other first things they said to you after january six happened, which is the highest ranking people in the country, like the president and the chief of staff, the people who have sworn an oath of office to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic should be the very first people to come out and tell everything they know about exactly what happened. and that's two of mark meadows. >> congressman jamie raskin, thank you very much sir. it is only now that is all in on wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening. >> right where you left off on the subpoena for mark meadows. my friend, thank you for joining us this hour.

we start tonight with a late breaking news of special counsel jack smith subpoenaed former president donald trump's former chief of staff mark meadows as part of smith's investigation into trump and his role in the january 6th insurrection. i should say this as according to a single source, and it's being reported by cnn, msnbc has not yet independently confirmed this reporting. cnn reports tonight that meadows received a subpoena for a -- sometime in january. this comes just one week after we learned the special counsel smith subpoenaed trump's former vice president mike pence. clearly, things are heating up. beyond the fact that subpoena of the former presidents chief of staff is a huge deal on its own, mark meadows in particular is quite a potential witness. meadows was involved in the infamous phone call between trump and georgia secretary of state brian rat -- in which he pressured raffensperger to find 11,780 votes. meadows was in the over office

with trump for a lot of the day on january 6th, and not to mention everything else that he was privy to as the former president chief of staff. joining me now to discuss all of this, and give us the spot, fbi general counsel, legal analyst, the person that you want to talk to, the person that you request desperately to hang out for another hour wind breaking news like this happens, inter weisman. it's good to see you, sir. >> thank you. >> and so mike pence has a subpoena, mark meadows has a subpoena. for some degree, that all makes a lot of sense. what does that tell you about the special counsel's investigation, and the alacrity with which jack smith conducts himself. >> do you remember when jack smith was appointed? everybody was a -- about how this should slow things down, and i will pat myself on the back because i know jack smith, and i was like, quite the opposite. he is a career guy who does not like grass growing under his feet. he is really, just like robert paul, are really enjoying steep

ideas that he has an obligation to go as fast as possible and responsible, and i think that's what we're seeing. mark meadows makes total sense that you're going to put him in the grand jury for all of the reasons that he said. he's a key player and key witness. he now has four things he can do. he can assert the same kind of executive privilege, which i think would go nowhere very fast. >> he's tried to do that before. >> he's done that before, but by all sides, the district court and d.c. circuit, they might have already ruled on that issue. that's really not going to be a winner. he can assert the first amendment, and then jack smith has to make a hard decision as to whether he charges him or tries to immunize him. or he can go on the grand jury. if he goes there and testifies he can lie, or he can tell the truth. lying is going to be very hard for him to pull that off because there are so many people around him and some of the documents to confront him. if you are his lawyers and i have been his defense lawyer, it is a hard thing. first, you can counsel somebody

who lies, and then second, you're going to get caught. he could end up getting charged not just with the underlying crimes of seditious conspiracy, obstruction of justice, of congress, he could actually get charged with the -- with obstructing the grand jury. this is the right maneuver if you are jacques mid. if you want marshmallows to feel pressure to come clean. >> do you think the jack smith is moving quickly, because the judge in this case who has been the judge -- and you know her well, she is retiring. a new judge has been coming in to oversee all of these subpoenas, et cetera. >> i don't think so. the reason is that, she has kind of turned out as the chief director. she will still be a judge, but she will not be in charge of all of the grand jury work. the new judge, she's also excellent. we don't have them in the special counsel time to time,

kind of the back of judge fringe of alison. i just don't think that would be the reason. i think that there would be many reasons in terms of the investigation itself to be moving very quickly. pence and meadows are the two. >> if i'm a special counsel, there are two guys that i want to talk to. the other three, donald trump is obviously one of them, but mike pence and mark meadows are the guys. i think i'm old enough to remember the juncture at which mark meadows was cooperating with investigations into january 6th. the investigation into the january 6th committee. he handed over a lot of his text messages, would provide safely to say, the foundation of so many of the case that the committee laid out. >> everybody at the time was thinking that you would fully cooperate. this is a sign that he did not deny it. he decided not to go down that road. one other technical thing that's going to be interesting is that mark meadows can't be a target of the grand jury.

the reason i'm saying is that the doj has a rule, which is that they cannot put a target in the grand jury. you would not be able, to for instance, if donald trump was the target, you would not be able to subpoena him. it just an internal doj rule. somebody has decided that mark meadows might be what is called a subject, he might be somebody of interest. he's not actually somebody targeted as looking to see whether you can charge him. and so that's an interesting call that you would think he might be so exposed, in terms of seeming to be the right-hand man of donald trump. >> what legal exposure does he have, and what kind of legal peril is he in in georgia? it seems like he is almost certainly -- >> my idea is that everybody that you're seeing with respect to donald trump, i was a prosecutor on this, i would be thinking mark meadows is aiming

and abetting, and conspiring. i don't see any daylight but this is really going to put a lot of pressure from mark meadows to cut a deal. i do think that before them, he's going to be distributing any privilege he can in order to throw sand in the gears and delay this. he might at the end of the day assert his methods, and then that will really leave it to jack smith to decide if he has enough evidence to charge him, or if it is so important to get his testimony that you are willing to immunize. that is a hard call to >> decide to do that with somebody that might be not that culpable, that you would give that kind of deal to him. that is all kind of things that we are going to be watching to see, that's my guess. >> it is his behavior initially on january 6th committee give you any insight into his state of mind as it might inform the decisions that he has to make now? >> it does. we have the same issue as the special counsel investigation,

with which gates, who is the number two to paul manafort, where he started to cooperate, and then backed off. there is so many pressures in these kinds of cases from your conspirators. there are so many pressures in any wrongdoing, and a huge public case. just imagine if you had to, as an upstanding citizen, suddenly admit that you had done something wrong and it was not just in a court but it was going to be on every front page of the united states use papers -- and so it's very hard to get cooperators, and get people to admit that because it is so public. there's a lot of pressure on people to do with they're going to do, and so if you are in the government, the way the you do that is that you have to build the case. you have to kind of make it clear that the only choice is going to jail, or just cooperating. >> do you know who built that case must effectively? his former aide, cassidy hutchinson. >> what is great is that she

has some evidence but not a lot of directive, as a respect to donald trump. she has a lot of direct evidence with mark meadows. that's what he has to worry about, is that there are a lot of people that saw him, heard him, there are writings from him,, and so it is going to be very hard for him to decide votes for the grand jury, and i will try to light my way out of this. >> that is just the phrase that i'm going for, with this grand jury to lie. i'm not a lawyer, but i would not advise then. andrew weizmann, thank you for your time and brilliance, as always, it's great to have you. to spend the whole night here. [laughter] georgia, we were just talking about, in this news regarding mr. meadows comes on the eve of release of certain parts of the cult and found the grand jury results and what trump did to overturn the 2020 or lectures in the state of georgia. nationally, former county george -- fani willis is best known for this investigation of 2020. in the state of georgia, she's been making a name for herself prosecuting gangs.

in the last two years, she brought three rico cases against a total of 66 alleged members of three atlanta area gangs. racketeering fluid and corrupt organization charges on rico. victoriously difficult to bring and you have to prove that a group of people were involved in a pattern of multiple crimes and those crimes were all related to another. rico cases are not all gangs in mafia members. the first case of fani willis they got national media attention was a rico case that she brought almost a decade ago. against a group of atlanta public school teachers and administrators that willis alleged was working together to cheat state standardized tests. literally, fani willis brought rico charges against teachers and one conviction. one of the big questions from president trump's case is, will fani willis wearing the particular skill she has of bringing rico cases against

unsurprising defendants? will she bring charges against -- tomorrow, we get a sneak think that might answer that question. emphasis on the word, might. from may to december of last, year willis's office had been using a special grand jury in fulton county to investigate the matter. the special grand jury was specifically charged with submitting a report recommending whether anyone involved should be prosecuted for potential crimes. in december, that grainger gave the report to a fulton county judge, who in turn gave it to fani willis's office. tomorrow, less than 24 hours from now, that same judge is going to release three chunks of the report to the public. most of the report, including a quote, roster of who should or should not be indicted, the judge has said, our quote, for the district attorney's eyes only for now. but by tomorrow, the judge will release the introduction and conclusion, and a section devoted explicitly to the grand jury's concern some witnesses

might have lied under oath during their testimony. the judge has said explicitly that tomorrow's report will not be naming names. that is obviously a huge deal, considering that they testified before the grand jury. that would be trump favorites, including a mutual -- giuliani and john eastman. senator lindsey graham, and former trump national security adviser, michael flynn. these are just some of the dozens of witnesses have special grand jury accusing of certain crimes here, and some of the most explosive questions will be, that is the grand jury's guess that a group of people involved in a pattern of multiple crimes, all related to one another, with the end goal of overturning the 2020 election? could this be another fani willis rico case? joining us now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan, and director of michigan school of law. thank you for being here on this illegal --

-- this night of all things legal. i have to ask you, every time that i read a story about fani willis, the word rico is in the story, because of her record on this. and it's because of the speculation that she might have tried to turn this into a rico case, as it concerns trump and the 2020 election. does that look like what could happen to you? where do you land on that question? >> i think there's a very good reason, alex, the people are talking about a rico charges in this case. one is fani willis's ex historical use of them, and there are some prosecutors that shy away from them, they tried to needlessly complicated, or maybe fearful of it. you don't want to charge something that's so complicated that the jury does not understand it, and so in some ways you have this snatch of defeat from the jaws of victory, by needlessly complicating the case. she has known that she can use, and it's not just for the mafia, although that is what its original intent, the federal rico statute was passed in the

1960s, during the efforts to dismantle the mafia, but it's since been used for gangs, as fani willis has, she used against teachers. he's used to gimmick against political machines, and the idea of why it is so useful is that it allows you to go after the boss. it's the person that doesn't get his hands dirty and allow these underlings to do all of the dirty work. you can bring together various schemes under one umbrella, and charge the entire group, which is called the enterprise, the enterprise could be a street gang. the enterprise could be a mob, the enterprise could be the political campaign. it does allow you to get everybody participating in that group, as long as you can show it, that some member of the group, agreed that some racketeering activities would be completed. that makes it a pattern. it could be fraud, it could be pressuring by raffensperger to change the votes. it could be tinkering with machines. it could be submitting false slates of electors, and so all of those games would be able to come under one umbrella, it would be able to reach the

entire top of the people that are in the puppet master, of the entire organization. for that reason, i think it's an attractive charge in this case. if fani willis has shown an ability and fearlessness in charging, it i think that it is a decent path. >> it is surprising when you go through the history of investigations into trump, how much the rico charge comes up. i know that in the manhattan da's investigation, former special assistant to the da, mike pomerantz who just wrote a book, he mentions in the book that it considered using a state level rico charge against trump in terms of the trump organization. they ultimately decided not to. this is from the book. pomerantz writes at the task of building up the proof of the entire pattern of enterprise corruption was simply too ambitious for the human and investigative bandwidth. how difficult is that? the trump organization, if you listen to michael cohen's testimony, it really does seem like an organized crime syndicate, the more information

that we have. the election fraud piece of this seems much more complicated to prove in terms of your ego charges. how much of an uphill climb with this be for somebody like fani willis, who is too much for her alvin bragg and his da's. >> it's complicated, and the thing that you worry about is that -- can you help a jury to understand this kind of a case, because it does have a lot of moving parts. there are always, to explain it to a jersey, and i do think that it doesn't necessarily require additional manpower from the prosecutors. it does require a level of complexity, and understanding of these things. i'm not sure that i fully credit mark pomerantz's assessment there of the team, in manhattan, but i do think they're probably capable, and i think that fani willis is also very cup capable of winning this case. you've shown that she is and other cases. it is a perfect tool in a case that -- where you have somebody calling

the shots, but allowing other people to be engaged on the ground, some of the illegal activity so that you can allow a jersey to hear the entire scope of criminal activity. in this case, trump himself was involved in that call, but you also have fake electors, tampering with voting machines, but if other people did those things, it might not ordinarily come in other normal joined your rules, in the rules for colonel procedures. if you charge the rico, then all that comes in, and the jury gets to understand the scope of the criminal activity, it's really important. if you do -- it might seem less important, but when you view them in their entirety, you see that this was a very wholehearted effort to overturn an election. >> indeed it was. what do you expect for the report tomorrow? everybody is saying lower your expectations in terms of the amount of information you're going to get here. do you think will be able to determine anything in which the direction of this is going, given the conclusion, everything else that's been released?

>> fani willis worked hard to keep this under wraps, which also signals to me that it seems the charges are likely. she wouldn't be fighting hard to keep it quiet if only to say that no charges here, folks, the case is closed. as she talks about protecting the fair trial rights of defendants. i do think there's going to be something there, but if all we see is the introduction and conclusion, and it's been scrubbed of names, then it seems like all we might learn a little bit is about the scope of the investigation. it's hard to, say it might say we recommend charges against individuals, we will see. i make specially ex by this part that will disclose witnesses the vibe before the grand jury. that's very intriguing. if somebody lied before the grand jury, that itself is a serious crime. i'll be particularly interested in that section. >> we're going to be talking about it, whatever is there, we are going to talk about it in detail tomorrow. barbara mcquade, thank you as always for your time. >> thanks, alex. >> coming up, rhonda sanchez

has opened up the new front in the war against woke. that is next. that is next i know what you're thinking - it's cool, i don't want anything too serious either. just a fun, spontaneous thing. i'm looking for someone who will let loose. dress up a little. see a show. order the steak and the lobster. some people say i'm excessive, but who cares. i'm just looking for a saturday to remember, and a sunday by the pool. think you can keep up?

♪ ...i'm over 45. ♪ ♪ i realize i'm no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪ >> this election was stolen.

we don't need any more proof. truth isn't truth. >> tonight, about 48 hours after a government killed three michigan state university students in critically injured five others, students on the campus are holding a candlelight vigil to remember

their classmates. the vigil tonight caps of a day of protests in east lansing, michigan, tonight hundreds of students and parents gathered at the michigan state capital for a sit-in. they directly addressed mission -- urging them to do something to protect lives as they try to learn. the sad part is that i want to feel protected to come here today, because i know there are important people here. why can't i still feel that safe regardless, it's only getting worse? it won't get better until we start changing, and that starts with you. it does not start with me. i can't do anything, i'm 20, and i'm broke. i can vote, exactly. i can vote, but my vote will not matter if you guys do not do anything that we are putting you there. you need to talk to your peers. >> michigan lawmakers are responding to that pressure

from the young constituents by preparing to introduce three new gun safety measures. governor whitmer outlined in her state of the statement address last month. state senators say they will release the bill soon, and hope that the republican peers will support them. students today were clear, they are fed up, their parents are fed up. their teachers are fed up. they want action now. that urgency could also be heard in calls from action in florida today, where hundreds of protesters gathered in tallahassee for another kind of education protest. they are holding another elected official to account. this week, florida governor ron desantis indicated that the potential expansion of these decisions to ban the new advanced placement, which is still in its pilot stage. desantis in florida officials rejected the courses initial conclusion of contemporary themes, black queer studies, and black feminism. the college board has now stripped the course of those lesson plans, and removed the

works of scholars like bella pucks, tallahassee coats, and kimberly crenshaw, the woman that coined the term, intersectionality. desantis is now threatening to sever the relationships with the college board and ep courses altogether, potentially replacing all ep courses with other methods of conferring college credit to high school students in the state. today, protesters marched from matt missionary back to this charge to tallahassee to say that they've had enough of governors so-called war on woke. led by reverend al sharpton, demonstrators held a rally to save history, and to help the governor get a little lesson on american protesting. >> at the 57 years of age and -- jim crow, it was education, versus the board of education, it kicked off in 1954. it inspired rosa parks to sit down a year later in 1955.

if you would study history, you should've known to mess with us and education, always ends in your defeat. [applause] you talk about florida being, woke, we went from woke to white. and when we are -- until we so tell the whole story. >> sharpton invoked a long history of civil rights protests in america, and how they've moved the needle of progress. today's demonstrations served as a reminder of desantis that that pattern of protest and progress will continue, no matter how many history courses and books he tries to ban. in the meantime, there are still classroom libraries that have been papered over. subject matter that has been banned from classrooms, ap classes that are unavailable in the state of florida, and the war on woke expanding nationwide. joining us now is the renounced

scholar and light writer, kimberly crenshaw. she's the professor of law at the university of california, and director of the african american policy forum. professor crenshaw is a critical race pioneer, literally the person at the center of so many of these debates that coined the term and it's intersectionality. it's a word that describes how race and gender, class, and other traits intertwine. the crtc and intersectionality have been removed from that new ap african american studies course in the education board down in florida. professor crenshaw, it's great to see you tonight. apologies for the long introduction, but we felt it was important. let me first task you about this term culture war, because the idea that the culture war implies there are these two states battling it out, but with this feels like as much more asymmetric. it means more much of an attack. do you think we need to reframe how we are talking about what is going on courtesy of governor desantis, and at the republicans who are waging this

kind of battle? >> i could not agree with you more, alex. in fact, one of my good friends, jason stanley just wrote an op-ed in yesterday's guardian, arguing precisely that. to call this a culture war is not only a misnomer, it is actually disinformation. people are not being told exactly what is happening, and so you're right to point out that asymmetry of this. you are right to point out that a culture war is often a war of values. it can be warring op-eds, it is not a faction that basically takes the law. it determines that there are ideas, there are practices, there are policies, there are interests that can no longer be legally expressed in public

institutions. that's what desantis has done, and that's what upwards of 17 states have done across the country, pursuing what they consider this anti-wokeness crusade. what it actually is, alex, it's a retrenchment, it's a reaction, it is a response to the tremendous mobilization that happened in 2020. in response to the killing of breonna taylor, george floyd, and frankly, i think that the fear that many people saw in every state, there was a massive protested involve people of all ages and all races. anti racism was becoming the majority therrien value that was demanding people to pay attention, not just individuals who are racist, but to institutions and structures. that is precisely why the

backlash has gone after the framework that allow people to understand our history in order to change our present. >> i think we have a copy of some of the op-ed that you mentioned, and i think that it bears reading an excerpt from it. the passing of these laws signals the dawn of a new authoritarian age in the united states, where the state uses laws restricting speech to intimidate, bully, and punish educators, forcing them to submit to the ideology of the dominant majority or lose their livelihoods, and even their freedom. my question to you, is that do you use the word repentant? i would love if you can frame up the tradition that this fits into in america, because i think that there was contempt meant for at least a few years, maybe in the early mid shots -- the early part of the early 21st century, where these issues feel like they've been litigated. this appears so retrograde, very much in line with an

america that is not the [interpreter] -- civil war america, that's where it feels like a, at least from my vantage point that we are at. how do you contextualize this in terms of american history? >> let's elevate some concepts. there are soundbites that sound like the 19th century. we have states rights, people basically making arguments that our states rights allow us to say there were certain ideas that cannot be taught about your history. the idea that white rights trump black realities, that white emotions and comfort are more important than access and equity for black people and other people of color. these ideas are old, old ideas. they are ideas that basically suggest that your civil rights violate my civil rights. there can only be my civil

rights, and so basically you don't get a chance to have your history told. you don't get a chance to vote for the people that you want to vote for. you don't get a chance to be one full hundred percent citizens of this country. the reality is that black freedom, freedom of people of color has always been a divisive concept. the very effort to actually create laws that illuminate the ability to advocate, and to learn about racial justice under divisive concepts. they tell you everything you need to know about how retrograde this moment and this movement actually is. >> critical race theory pioneer writer, scholar, the woman at the center, literally of all of this, professor kimberly crenshaw, please come back to the show all of the time. we will ask you to speak contemporaneously from periods of time, we will never censor anything you say. we really appreciate your time and efforts.

>> alex, if i may, i just want to tell people that black scholars have a new petition called a call to the college board to restore the integrity of ap courses. you will be able to see it tomorrow. >> we will be looking over that, thank you for the heads up, professor. we have more ahead tonight. nikki haley wants everyone to know that she's part of a new generation of leaders, but she is campaigning with some very old school bigots. plus, fresh off a justice department subpoena, mike pence says that he will not enthusiastically participate in the last session with race, sex, and gender. wait a second, the last succession? that is next. that is next research shows people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. did you know that liberty mutual custo— ♪ liberty mutual. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ custom home insurance created for you all. ♪

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he is an american pastor and a televangelist for the history of making outlandishly events of comments. in 2006, he claimed it hurricane katrina was god's way of punishing the city for allowing a gay pride parade. he once claimed it godsend hitler to john hunt the jewish people as part of a divine plan to drive them back to the land of israel. he claimed that women are only meant to be mothers and their children. he believes are so

controversial that into any -- john mccain was forced to publicly reject his endorsement as part of his campaign. for 15 years later, pastor hagee has found a person to endorse him. he gave a personal prayer for governor nikki haley. >> i have to give a shout out to the people it took the podium before me. to pastor hagee, i still say i want to be when i grew up. thank you. >> with her campaign announcement today, she made clear that she was ready to be a warrior in the new battle for wokeness. >> a self loading as swept our country. some people may -- this is not about identity politics, i don't believe in that. and i don't believe in glass ceilings either. strong and proud, not weak and woke. that is the america that i see. >> strong impaired, not weak

and woke. this is the 2024 playbook, the washington post has reported that donald trump is now trying to play catch up with potential rivals like ron desantis in the fight for race, gender, and in public schools. part of the warren woke. today, former vice president mike pence and other potential contenders held her own rallies on the same issues on minnesota and iowa. >> the average american today is being dragged into a culture war that has invaded our schools. every day, we are told that we must not only tolerate the lefts of obsessions with race and sex, and gender, but we must earnestly and enthusiastically participate. >> joining me now is david director, writer for the dispatch, thank you for joining us tonight. i wonder if you could square for me the results of the 2022 midterms, and the playbook that

is emerging in the 2024 presidential race? >> i don't know, alex, if there is a way to square it, but if there is a republican candidate, and these potential candidates are going to compete for the base authority, then that's always going to be hot begins initially. i could see this broadening out to have more general themes about the economy, national security, and we saw nikki haley today in charleston, south carolina touch on, that but one of the issues that's driving the republican base today and even republicans beyond the base who are coming out of the coronavirus pandemic, and they were concerned about public schools, these kids being taught, they are very interesting in this topic. and interesting, that is not a topic that we have discussed in the 2016 republican primaries. more than 12 republican primaries up 2008 were republican primaries. this is very new, but there's a

reason that these candidates and potential candidates are focusing on, it because that is where a lot of the energy, and the intention of republican voters are today. >> and no matter what kind of election results that they might actually result in, in terms of a general election, i do wonder why, with the exception of mike pence, nikki haley and donald trump, they have not mentioned what used to be an old standard in this kind of cultural conversation, which is the war on choice. it's the question of reproductive freedom, the big a, abortion. the right has won that battle in a lot of ways. there are new fronts emerging every day. why do you think that haley and trump are not talking about abortion? are they kind of nodding towards a sort of reality on the ground, in terms of voter support for antichoice measures? >> listen, if what we saw from nikki haley today is that she did pay homage to the abortion

issue. donald trump, we know has expressed skepticism in going for the supreme court, in terms of overturning roe v. wade. it's not an issue that he feels is totally helpful. i do however expect over, the course of this presidents primary, to have a republican primary be at least some, over who can take this issue to the next level. there is a debate amongst the republican party about if there should be a national ban, or if there should be rights in the terms of classical republican position, that they should be overturned. and then either blue or red should make their own decisions on abortion. most people that elect them at the legislative level. i do think that we're going to see some republicans called for congress to engage in implementing a national ban on abortion rights. i do think that some will promise that if they are elected, they will do that, or they will push for that.

obviously, they need congress to go along with it. others will talk about the need for states rights, and saying that i oppose abortion rights, i don't think than a national ban is proper. and so i actually think they were going to see that. it's going to be one of the more interesting debates in the republican party, as the primary unfolds. i do think that this issue in 2024 could really work for democrats, in fact this is no longer only hypothetical, theoretical, but this issue about judges in the supreme court and the court needs to evolve, other judges are getting older. we do know that they will last forever, and i don't think it can be a motivating issue for voters that are being concerned about abortion rights, as we head into a general election in 2024. >> yeah. i think it was a motivating issue. it was number two is young voters minds according to exit polling in the 2022 midterms. it is kind of a proven winner for democrats but if republicans want to

re-litigated in 2024 or keep pushing for a federal ban i am sure democrats will opt out that the beat on the national stage. david rideout, thank you for your time tonight. >> anytime, thank you. >> coming up, democrats are flipping the script on election denialism, we will tell you how, that is next. s next how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar.

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year 2023 but election denialism is still very much alive and well. and with the prospect of a presidential election on the

horizon and has the potential to get worse. to confront the hundreds of election deniers who are still out there, election officials across the country are now leading the charge to combat misinformation about election integrity. according to the washington post, in arizona, the new democratic attorney general has repurposed a unit that under her predecessor focused on election fraud and it will now focus on voting rights and ballot access. in michigan, secretary of state jocelyn benson is working to toughen penalties against those who threaten election officials. she is also drafting legislation that would make it a crime to knowingly spread misinformation about elections, comparing the legislation to laws barring deceptive marketing practices. the way that pence insisted, individuals who intentionally spread misinformation which leads to threats or worse, targeting election officials are just as culpable, and should be held culpable, just as those who are actually exercising the threats themselves. in north carolina, the board of

elections is considering the removal of county election officials, who without evidence of irregularities refused to certify the 2022 midterm results. after more than two years of unabashed election denialism, the cavalry is coming to combat the big lie at the state level, which if you like democracy's highly anticipated and also probably very good news. joining us now to help us figure out whether it is indeed good news is marc elias, voting rights attorney and founder of democracy docket. thank you for making the time. how heartened are you by these measures that are being announced at the state level across the country? >> i think that they are important but i don't want to get ahead of ourselves. as you say, we have been having election denialism for two years, and at each stage, we have thought that it would get better. after donald trump loses, it will get better. after he litigators his 65 cases and loses them, it will get better. certainly after republicans win this, the violent insurrection

at the nation's capital, the fever will break and it will get better. after they lose the midterms, it has to get better. but the fact is, it's not getting better. so i'm happy to see that democratic election officials and democratic officeholders are pushing back. but i think that we need to be very realistic about the threats that we face. they are persistent, they're escalating, and they are coming from one side of the aisle. >> what about, i mean, enforcing some of these? there is a question of how you enforce them, like benson's legislation making it a crime to knowingly spread misinformation about elections, is it enforceable? then there is a counter argument that the more you punish folks like this, the more a kind of almost -- the more it makes them dig in their heels, the more, at least when you talk about misinformation on social media, you try and sensor it, you try and prevent it from spreading and the virus finds its way to another host. i mean, when we talk about efficacy, where do you grade

these things? >> yeah, i think it is hard for me to address the speech content stuff because it is tricky with the first amendment. i want to see what the texts are. but there are things that we can do to really push back against election denialism. you said that the bill is aimed at people who provide misinformation, it is not people, it is republicans. the election officials in north carolina, republicans. you need to be able to acknowledge that this is not a bipartisan problem. the problem that we have is not one party's hijacking a system of elections that rely on bipartisanship. they rely on democrats and republicans certifying elections together. they rely on democrats and republicans observing elections together. and they assume that at the end of the day, everyone has a common interest in seeing that the accurate results are tabulated and certified, but not just is not the case. so the measures i think that we need to focus on are the ones

that do away with the nostalgia of the pageantry of democracy once was, and focuses on the challenges of democracy that are today. they focus on making sure that the county officials have to certify elections whether they like the results are not, and if they don't, they will get sued, and if necessary they will go to jail. we need to be much more intentional about bringing to bear the resources and the steps necessary to enforce the laws to make sure every ballot is counted and accurately certified. >> do you think at this point it matters if any of these new laws are put into place, that any of them have republican support, does it matter at this point if you have a republican stated tierney general, or an attorney general that is willing to go out on a limb here and tried to reform a broken system as far as the party and misinformation? >> no. actually, that is one of the things that is always frustrating to me.

right now, as we said here, there are 17 states. more than the american public lives in a state that has a democratic trifecta which means that it is a democratic governor, and democratic legislator. those legislators and governors can act in concert to implement these provisions. they will not target every battleground state, every swing the state, but they will create a momentum and the standard just in the way that desantis and his cronies have acted in partisan fashion to create standards on the other side. i don't think that we should be trying to find some magical unicorn republican, we should be moving for with the business and hand. >> there are no you know corn 's. thank you for joining us tonight, we appreciate your time, we will be right back. be right back. hey bud. wow. what's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake.

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now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, good evening lawrence. >> good evening alex, tomorrow night we will have some of that report from