psyche. >> shoving off from south hampton, england, to new york in 1912. after the titanic struck an iceberg and sank, more than 1,500 people died. the ship still lays at the bottom of the sea. but remains the object of worldwide fascination. miguel almaguer, nbc news. >> thank you, miguel, for that report. we've got a lot to cover in our second hour of "chris jansing reports," let's get right to it. any moment now, we're expecting to hear from president biden, the moment he's been under heavy pressure to deliver for the better part of the last week. he's going to come to this podium, and give us more information about those recent military shoot downs of the chinese spy balloon and the three other unidentified objects over northern american airspace.

what were they? how much has been recovered. do we definitively know the level of threat they posed or lack thereof. bipartisan critics have been saying there's plenty that isn't classified that the american public has a right to know, and we are now waiting, as you see, for the president to come to that podium and begin. but in the meantime, let's talk to nbc news senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell, along with nbc news capitol hill correspondent, ryan nobles and robert gibbs, former obama press secretary and an msnbc political analyst. robert, let me start with you, you know the criticism has been out there, the pressure the white house has been under, you have been in the white house when a president was under pressure. what does he need to deliver right now? >> well, i think the more than people want to know what level of new information we have about the three objects that have been shot down recently. i also think the president needs to outline what our posture is dealing with china and the

aggressiveness of the balloon that traversed the country. as you said, i think he's been under some pressure to do this. but at the same time, i think the administration wants to get this right, so i think i'll be listening for what level of new information he imparts today and what it means for our foreign policy going forward. >> are we getting indication, kelly, that there is going to be new information, stuff we haven't heard before? >> well, we know that this will bring forward some of what has been a part of this inter-agency process, where you have the department of defense, which has been a part of this, as well as the recovery that has gone on with the chinese spy balloon that was shot down off south carolina, where some of the material from that device has been recovered, and of course you've got some of the thinking behind where is the threshold when as commander in chief, the president takes action to use military force. we had obviously pilots in the air using american tools and at

some risk to do that, and so that's something as commander in chief, it's important for the president to communicate when munitions are expelled over american airspace, and there could be some risk to pilots. also one of the reasons we have been hearing from the white house is there could be some risk to civilian air traffic because of the altitude that these -- whether it was the spy balloon from china and the three other aerial objects as they have been described. could there have been any interference there. so could they give us more information. we don't know specifically what the president will be able to say here. but the fact that he's saying anything is certainly notable. the images you're seeing are from the building next door to the white house in the eisenhower, old executive office building where they have what is kind of a studio created for use for the president to make television appearances or to conduct the big video screen conversations sometimes, especially earlier in the covid

period or when he does video chats with people around the country. so that's what they're setting up here now, and journalists will be in the room, and we would hope, perhaps, the president would take a question or two after this because this has been such an issue that really brings together so many areas from the kind of pop culture curiosity about what is out there above the skies around the world, and then the very serious issues of u.s./china relations, as well as the ongoing reality that the u.s. and other nations spy on each other and where are the boundaries and the limits of that. so there are a lot of important issues that intersect when it comes to this spy balloon drama that we've always been watching unfold over the last ten days or so. >> yeah, and ryan, it's about what we know, what we don't know, right? which a number of members of the u.s. senate have said, he should come out and say that. but what are the questions that you're hearing from members of the house and senate, that they

still have or things that they think the white house needs to talk about that maybe they have been briefed on that aren't classified? >> yeah, first off, chris, there's no doubt that the calls from this side of pennsylvania avenue were growing louder and louder, for the president to come out and say something on the record. it wasn't just from republicans. you were starting to hear from democrats as well yesterday who truly believe that the president needed to show in a very visible way that he was out in front in dealing with this particular issue. but to your other questions, in terms of what congress wants to hear, i think there is a strong sense among particularly members of the senate that so much of this information that they've been given is not necessarily classified. it is information that the average american can be tuned into and learn more about, and would actually calm their fears about all of this activity that's happening in the skies above the united states. and finally, what you really get a sense of here from the congress is what exactly does

the white house want to do next? why was this sudden desire to shoot devices like this out of the sky and what does it mean about a policy heading forward? is this something that is going to be a regular occurrence? is this something that was just an anomaly that was born out of this spy balloon making its way into american airspace or does the administration have a new way of handling situations like this, and if they do, does congress need to play a role? does it need to appropriate additional funds to help with a program that would prevent something like this. is there just an oversight responsibility that congress has in terms of learning more as to exactly how the administration wants to handle it? these are all questions that they want to have answered and then finally, which is kind of a long-term question, chris, what does this mean about the long-term relationship with china? this obviously started with what everyone has confirmed is a chinese spy balloon. this was a huge diplomatic problem for the white house and

chinese communist party. it has obviously raised the tensions here on capitol hill as well where you see both democrats and republicans speaking out against the chinese government, the senate passed a unanimous resolution condemning china for putting that balloon into american airspace. so there's a variety of different ways this conversation is headed on capitol hill. but it begins right here and now with what the president has to say about exactly what's going on. >> robert, even if you understand and maybe accept the argument that the president had to wait because he wanted to make sure that he had something to say, right, and that they knew some things, questions maybe, even intelligence officials had or the president had that they were waiting to get answers and share with the american people. even if you accept that, does that essentially up the ante, the expectation is he needs to come out here and say something that the american public hasn't already heard. >> well, i think just hearing his perspective on this may well be enough.

i think that that will clearly engender more questions. i think you heard, laid out the tension here also is that the briefings that have been done on capitol hill don't feel classified, don't feel top secret, should be and can be shared. i think it's important that we begin to understand, again, what was said. we all of a sudden begin to pick up objects because norad has readjusted radar because of the chinese spy balloon. putting framing around that so that people don't believe their weekends are going to be filled with news of missiles flying across the country and knocking out objects. i think it's important to put essentially the brakes on kind of where we've been on the news. he may make news because we have new information or not, but i just think putting some framing around where we've been is going to be important to let the american people know what is going on and how it impacts them

in our lives. >> robert gibbs, ryan nobilities, kelly o'donnell, thank you, we'll continue to watch the podium and wait for the president to come out and make his remarks. in the meantime, any minute in ohio, we'll hear from epa administrator and sherrod brown. they spoke to locals and toured a community two weeks after a train carrying toxic chemicals was derailed. i want to bring in nbc's george solis who was there for us. what do we know about what's happened so far and what's to come? >> reporter: the head of the epa is meeting with residents one on one, and questions about air quality and water. the epa has been here on the ground. they have been a presence since this derailment occurred, and they are actively looking at concerns. they have been in homes. 500 or so, doing indoor water and air quality checks to make sure it is safe.

yes, things are looking better. they know that may not be a comfort to some people who are experiencing some symptoms, who are reporting feeling sick, nausea, headaches, people who are noticing fish kills in their waterways, reporting livestock that may be getting ill. they have a lot of work ahead of them. they want to hold the train operator accountable through all of this as this investigation unfolds. one thing they want to make sure to let people know is they are an active presence here, and in work is ongoing. it will be a 24/7 operation until they are certain it is safe for all residents. >> george solis, i know you'll update us. maybe we'll get information from the residents about the conversation they had with the epa administrator. thank you for that. and still ahead, police just gave an update on the michigan state shooting. we're learning more about the gunman this afternoon. we'll have that for you. plus, speaking of guns. new data about just how unhappy the country is with our current

gun laws. but does congress care? and now that parts of the fulton grand jury report is out, will the d.a. bring charges against former president trump. we'll talk to a former georgia prosecutor about the decision the current one is facing. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. "chris jg reports" only on msnbc nicorette knows quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like... try hypnosis... or, quit cold turkey. are you kidding me? instead, start small with nicorette, which will lead to something big.

so cozy. how many rooms are in there? should we go check it out? yeah. we get to stay here all weekend! when you stay at a vrbo... a man, his family, and his tractor, penny. china's high altitude balloon. our military through the north american defense, norad, closely scrutinized our airspace, including enhancing our radar to pick up more slow-moving objects above our country and around the world. in doing so, they tracked three unidentified objects. one in alaska, canada and over lake huron in the midwest. they acted in accordance established parameters for determining how to deal with unidentified aerial objects in u.s. airspace.

at their recommendation, i gave the order to take down the three objects, due to hazards in civilian air traffic, and we could not rule out the surveillance risk of sensitive facilities. we acted in consultation with the canadian government. i spoke personally with prime minister trudeau from canada on saturday, and just as critically we acted out of an abundance of caution, an opportunity that allowed us to take down these objects safely. our military and the canadian military are seeking to recover the debris so we can learn more about these three objects. our intelligence community is assessing all three incidents. they're reporting to me daily, and will continue their urgent efforts to do so, and i'll communicate that to the congress. we don't yet know exactly what these three objects were, but nothing right now suggests they were related to china's spy balloon program or that they were surveillance vehicles from any other country.

the intelligence community's current assessment is that these three objects were most likely balloons tied to private companies, recreation or research institutions studying weather or conducting other scientific research. when i came into office, i instructed our intelligence community to take a broad look at the phenomenon of unidentified aerial objects. we know that a range of entities, including companies, countries and research organizations operate objects at altitudes for purposes that are not nefarious, including legitimate scientific research. i want to be clear, we don't have any evidence that there has been a sudden increase in the number of objects in the sky. we're now just seeing more of them partially because the steps we've taken to increase our radars, narrow our radars, and we have to keep adapting our approach to dealing with these challenges. that's why i've directed my team to come back to me with sharper rules for how we will deal with

these unidentified objects moving forward, distinguishing between those that are likely to pose safety and security research that necessitate action and those that do not. but make no mistake, if any object presents a threat to the safety and security of the american people, i will take it down. i'll be sharing with congress these classified policy parameters when they're completed and they'll remain classified so we don't give our road map to our enemies to try to evade our defenses. going forward, these parameters will guide what actions we'll take while responding to unmanned and unidentified aerial objects. we're going to keep adapting them as the challenges evolve, if it evolves. in addition, we drive to our nasa security adviser to make sure we're positioned to deal safely and effectively with the objects in our airspace. first, we will establish a better inventory of unmanned

airborne objects in space, above the united states airspace, and make sure that inventory is accessible and up to date. second, we'll implement further measures to improve our capacity to detect unmanned objects in our airspace. third, we'll update the rules and regulations for launching and maintaining unmanned objects in the skies above the united states of america. and fourth, my secretary of state will lead an effort to help establish common global norms in this largely unregulared space. these will lead to safer skies for our military and scientists and people on the ground as well. that's my job as your president and commander in chief. as events of the previous days have shown, we'll always act to protect the interests of the american people and the security of the american people. since i came to office, we have developed the ability to

identify, track, and study high altitude surveillance balloons connected with the chinese military. when one of these high altitude surveillance balloons entered our airspace over the continental united states earlier in the month, i gave the order to shoot it down, as soon as it would be safe to do. the military advised shooting it down over land because of the sheer size of it. it was the size of multiple school buses and posed a risk to people on the ground if it was shot down where people lived. instead we tracked it closely, analyzed its capabilities, and we learned more about how it operates. and because we knew its path, we were able to protect sensitive sites against collection. we waited until it was safely over water, which would not only protect civilians, but enable us to recover substantial components for further analytics. and then we shot it down. sending a clear message, clear message, a violation of our

sovereignty is unacceptable. we'll act to protect our country, and we did, now. this past friday, we put restrictions on six firms that directly support the people's republic liberation army, the people's liberation army aerospace program, that includes airships and balloons, denying them access to u.s. technology. we briefed our diplomatic partners and our allies around the world, and we know about china's program and where the balloons have flown. some of them have also raised their concerns directly with china. our exports have lifted components of the chinese balloons payload off the ocean floor. we're analyzing them as i speak. what we learn will strengthen our capabilities. now, we'll also continue to engage with china, as we have throughout the past two weeks. as i've said since the beginning of my administration, we seek competition, not conflict with china. we're not looking for a new cold

war. but i make no apologies and we will compete. and we'll responsibly manage the competition so it doesn't veer into conflict. this maintains open lines of communication between our diplomats and military professionals. our diplomats will be engaging further, and i will remain in communication with president xi. i'm grateful for the work of the last several weeks of our intelligence, diplomatic, and military professionals to who have proved once again to be the most capable in the world. i want to thank you all. the other thing i want to point out is we are going to cope our allies and the congress contemporaneously informed of all we know and all we have learned. and i expect to be speaking with president xi, and i hope i make no apologies for taking

down that balloon. thank you very much. >> reporter: compromised by your family's -- >> reporter: sir, mr. president -- >> give me a break, man. >> reporter: was there an overreaction -- >> okay. you can come to any ask and ask the question when we have more polite people. >> reporter: the anniversary o. -- of the war and what's your message? >> so the president paused for a minute, but his last words besides wanting fewer people to speak at the same time, i make no apologies for taking down that balloon. back with us, nbc's kelly o'donnell, former white house press secretary robert gibbs, along with retired four-star general, barry mccaffrey, now an msnbc military analyst. a lot of what we heard, kelly,

frankly, we knew, right, about the first balloon, about the other three. there's not a lot, frankly that we know. we don't know exactly what they were, but officials don't believe they were a threat. we knew he was going to have this new plan put in place. so what's your headline? what's your take away from what you heard from the president? and we just lost kelly o'donnell. so robert gibbs, do you think the president did what he needed to do to calm some of the fears to answer some of the questions given, frankly, that a lot of what we heard we have heard from other members of the administration previously? >> i do because they're words from the president, and i think hearing from the president that the likelihood of the three objects that were shot down most recently after the spy balloon was shot down aren't chinese related, aren't related to other

countries. that's not what they think. i think that's broadly reassuring to the american people, and i think that's probably the headline coming out of this. i think it's also important for the other end of pennsylvania avenue to hear he was going to keep them and allies up to date, and i think just generally, you know, going through this idea that if our sovereignty, the airspace is threatened, we'll shoot that balloon down, whether it's chinese or some other country. i think it's just important to reiterate for the american people, but i think the real news here, the three objects don't appear to be either chinese or from another foreign country. >> also, general, it's clear they're upping their plans, right? they are going to have a better inventory of what's in the skies, the president said. they're going to improve their capacity to detect. in fact, they already have in some ways, adjusting their radar is the reason we found out about the second groups, the other three objects. they're going to update the rules and regulations for what can actually be up in the sky, and also they're calling for

global norms, but when you look at that, it does beg the question, are we adapting quickly enough to a world where the technology is changing so much, are the intelligence and military communities adept at changing with the technology? >> well, i think clearly this is a major chinese program that we were -- the intelligence community was aware of but that they really hadn't focused on. i'm not too sure the politicians grasp it. president biden's presentation here this morning was solid, no surprises there. going forward, we're going to stop shooting down weather or research balloons, you know, with fire aircraft, i'm sure of that. it's going to be a terrible struggle to get control of hundreds of balloons that are being released willy nilly all over the globe, which, by the way, the word in combat was always big sky, little bullet,

the chances of a commercial aircraft running into one of these weather balloons and being downed is really remote. thankfully. so much of what we're seeing here is political posturing in congress. every issue turns into now an attack on the administration. the president did a good jobment i don't think there's any great fear in the country about what's flying overhead. the chinese balloon they shot down first. that was a brazen affront or a sovereignty. so that one had to be shot down, and in the future, i think we'll take them down before they come over the united states. >> what's the over arching message you heard, kelly? >> i was struck by the fact this was focused more on the three later devices and that the president was careful about an audience that went beyond the united states, and that's the

one in china. he talked about having an intention to speak with the chinese president, xi jinping. he made no apologies for taking action. that was a key part of what he wanted to do here was to manage two kinds of expectations, what was needed for the american audience, for his constituents, for the political audience. but also as important for him, dealing with the only other super power on the planet, and that is china, and dealing with a leader that he knows well and a leader that he will have to continue to deal with on all sorts of issues. we don't want to have confrontation with china. there is often tense, difficult competition with china, and this has been an unpleasant and in many ways unexpected episode in that relationship. and so i think that to me stood out a great deal, that he wants to speak with xi jinping, that he makes no apologies, that he will take action when he

believes it's necessary. those were important messages for him to send to beijing, chris. >> and punctuating the point that when a president speaks, there's never one audience in this case, there are many here and abroad. kelly o'donnell, robert gibbs, general barry mccaffrey, thank you to all of you. in a few hours, speaker kevin mccarthy will head to the border. are house republicans backing up their talk about border security with action? the fighting within the caucus on an issue they hoped to own. (cecily) what's up, einstein? (einstein) my network went into a black hole! (cecily) oh, you tried to save a buck on it? (einstein) i got what i paid for. not so smart. (cecily) nah, you're still a genius. but, there is a smarter way to save. (einstein) oh?! (cecily) switch to verizon! and get a new iphone 14 pro and apple watch, on them. (vo) yep. right now get iphone 14 pro and apple watch se, on us. that's a value of up to $1200. (einstein) eureka! i'm switching! (cecily) wow. you're pretty spry. (vo) the network you deserve. the savings you want. verizon

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suspect, and this note was interesting because they didn't go into too many details about what was written on the note, only to say that the suspect listed out a couple of other locations he wanted to visit, and also said he felt slighted by businesses as well as some folks. no details beyond that. we have clues on a potential motive, but as the investigation moves forward, we know that he had no connection to msu, but earlier today, reporters pressed him on the suspect's background, here's what they told us. take a listen. >> through our interviews with the shooter's father, we brought that up to him. and he had mentioned that his son does not have any friends. he pretty much sat in his room most of the time. he ate, went to the bathroom in there. he never left his room, and his father didn't believe he had any friends, let alone 20 of them that would help him put this out. we kind of determined he was the lone shooter in this.

>> reporter: and chris, there were also questions about the suspect's criminal history, and 2019 was a year that stood out because that's when the suspect was arrested for a weapons charge. he did not have a permit to carry a weapon when he was confronted by police. initially he was charged with a felony, but was able to plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge. eventually he was on probation, did not serve any jail time, but obviously the way things played out at that time is under a lot of scrutiny because eventually the suspect was able to get those hand guns, purchase them legally, and carry out this attack. as you can see, it's still a crime scene here. but this was an academic hall, and earlier today we have seen students coming in and out collecting their belongings, but it's been relatively quiet on campus because classes have been cancelled throughout the week. it appears they plan on resuming classes next week. chris. >> thank you so much for that update, appreciate it. republicans today, planting

a proverbial flag at the border. speaker kevin mccarthy leading a congressional delegation to arizona this afternoon with what they believe is a winning political message about the crisis at the border. for the white house, it's nothing more than a publicity stunt. nbc news congressional correspondent, julie tsirkin is on capitol hill for us. high profile visit by speaker mccarthy coming at a time when members of his own party aren't all on the same page when it comes to the border. talk about that. >> forget getting democrats and republicans on the same page, as you mentioned, republicans even in the house are divided in how to handle this. speaker mccarthy, i think it's notable, making his first trip as speaker, choosing that location to be the southern border in the next two hours, he's going to receive an aerial tour with border patrol officials. he's on the trip with four freshman republican lawmakers, including juan, who gave the republican rebuttal to the state of the union in spanish.

clearly mccarthy trying to send a message to the biden administration and to democrats this is something they're going to take seriously. what we have seen in the last couple of weeks, they haven't been able to act as much as they wanted to, there was no vote on the floor, even though it was promised on the border security bill, because of disagreements on how to go about this issue. half of his party in the house seemed to be interested in prosecuting the biden administration and holding alejandro mayorkas accountable for actions on the border while the other half want meaningful solutions to change the circumstance at the border, fix immigration laws, to provide legal pathways to dreamers as well. we saw the push reignited in the senate. in the senate, among democrats, it's hard to have meaningful conversations as well. as mccarthy is making this trip to the border, we learned in the last few minutes, the house democratic leader, hakeem jeffries is making a pitch on the other side of the border.

a lot of moving pieces. >> i got handed a statement from john fetterman's office, the senator from pennsylvania. he says he has checked himself into walter reid national medical center. what more do we know? >> reporter: this is coming out in the last few minutes. this is obviously really sad. it says in the statement from fetterman's chief of staff, he checked himself into walter reid medical hospital to receive treatment for clinical depression. he said he visited with the attending physician brian monahan earlier in the week on monday who advised him to do this, to check himself into the hospital. they said he will continue getting voluntary treatment on a voluntary basis, and after examining john, the doctors at walter reid told us he's getting the care he needs and will soon be back to normal. it's been a rough start for the senator who came off a heated victory in pennsylvania. a week ago he was in the hospital after not feeling bell, feeling lightheaded after the democratic retreat last wednesday. fortunately, no signs of further

stroke symptoms. of course he experienced a near death experience by having a severe stroke just months ahead of the election in novp. -- november. this has been a rough start for the senator. he missed the vote at night, and i wondered why that was. now we know. it's because of this. but this is somebody who we've seen in the halls. obviously he's still suffering from some auditory process issues coming off the stroke he suffered. there are combinations coming into play in committee rooms and on the floor. clearly someone now who's getting the care he needs after disclosing this diagnosis that many americans suffer with. >> julie tsirkin, thank you for that. i have been handed a statement from his wife and i want to read it for you. after what he's been through in the past year, there's probably no one who wanted to talk about his own health less than john. i'm so proud of him for asking for help and getting the care he needs. this is a difficult time for our

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so is his testimony actually looking less likely? joining me here on set, nbc's vaughn hillyard and michael moore, a former u.s. attorney in georgia. great to have both of you here. you were in iowa yesterday, you're back. what did he tell you? >> i put the question whether he would voluntarily sit down, and come to an arrangement and agreement with the department of justice. this is the individual who said that the lead up to january 6th, he was being asked to do one of the most un-american things possible, and that would be to choose who the president was. those were mike pence's own words here, and so clearly he wrote a book about it, he has talked publicly about it, but there's a difference between talking publicly about it, and going under oath and answering questions in the american justice system and that is where i asked him, if he were to win the legal challenge and fight the subpoena, would he be willing to testify about the experience and pressure he faced. take a listen. >> the issue here is whether or not a vice president who served

as president of the senate should be subject to a subpoena to appear in court. >> would you voluntarily -- >> the justice department has insisted on that, and on reserving that right in the event this were a matter that would go to trial, and we just simply made it clear to them, we think it is not only unprecedented by unconstitutional. and so we'll -- >> would you be open to volunteering did. >> as i said, i have written extensively about this, i have spoken extensively. >> reporter: it's different than going under oath. >> well, no. >> clearly the department of justice and the special counsel's office have reached a climax as part of their information. mike pence isn't wrong to say that it is unprecedented for a vice president to be subpoenaed to come testify about conversations with the president for which he served. it's unprecedented by also we haven't seen anything like january 6th before play out here, and so that is where it gets to the crux of clearly department of justice believes mike pence is aware of

conversations that perhaps he has not even made the public privy to, and that is why they want him to come and speak. the question is will he win this legal challenge and will he be able to avoid having to go before the department of justice. >> michael, pence argues his role as president of the senate gives him legislative immunity. the doj has appeared to make a similar case in a past filing. what exactly does legislative immunity cover? >> well, i'm glad to be with you both, and it basically protects someone in congress from testifying about doing their regular job as part of a member of congress, and he's claiming he was president of the senate, and by that designation, should be protected from having to give testimony. it's a pretty cowardly move if you ask me. it's hard for me to think that people think you can only be a patriot when you're getting

publicized and paid to do it, and so here they simply are asking about information that he may have received at the time that he was in consultation with trump, not at the time he was presiding over the senate. and so while there may be an argument that some aspects of the testimony could, in fact, be protected, the court has been fairly clear in the past, and nixon tried this when they started talking about immunities and privilege and this kind of stuff that, you know, you can't hide. you can't use the law and protections that are given in the law as a shield to commit crimes. and so this testimony may be necessary. you know, again, it may be the type of thing where they exclude and maybe they reach an agreement to exclude some information. but to suggest that somehow he's standing on principle is a laughable joke at this point given what he knows. i'm not surprised to see it. we are in unchartered waters,

but the whole last administration was uncharted waters. we had love letters with dictators. here we have the fbi searching presidents and former presidents homes. the whole thing that's gone on in the last administration. it will be an interesting task for the court, and that's where it's going to head. >> we just moments ago heard from lindsey graham about his testimony to the fulton county grand jury, and he was asked whether he was confident he did not perjure himself because one of the things that was released was that members of this grand jury said we believe people lied to us. anyway, here's what lindsey graham said about that. >> very confident, i have no idea what they're going to do. i'll just leave that. >> reporter: you're confident you're not one of the ones that perjured yourself? >> i'm curious what you think about what we have learned so far. the only thing we know about possible charges here is that they believe there is

potentially perjury involved, and in fact, they think fani willis should pursue that, and people should be the target of criminal indictments. does that mean that's the only thing they found? >> it really doesn't mean it's the only thing. i think it's pretty clear that they have recommended she indict some people. we don't know exactly who and for what. the idea of the perjury, i think, the report has been redacted. the court has decided to do that to protect the due process rights of potential defendants and recognize the public's right to have information. what i think you're going to find is that those witnesses who were particularly recalcitrant with the grand jury, and who fought the subpoena and filed all kind of court actions to keep from coming forth and telling what they knew, i think you're probably going to find some of those people are indicated by the grand jury to be less than forthcoming. whether or not that's graham, i don't know, you've got a cast of characters who have always been one step away from the truth,

who have testified in the fulton county case, and so we don't know who they recommended, who they're talking about, and i certainly don't know that, who they may be meaning in the report. the report itself is fairly anti climactic in the sense that there's not a lot of information about who the grand jury was specifically looking at and specifically what charges, and that was done for a purpose by the judge, so i will take the d.a. at their word that decisions are imminent as we move forward, and whether or not she takes up a perjury charge, the cases will be tough given a grand jury testimony. my guess is she has to play full when she has to deal with whether or not she's going to indict a former president and the rest of the team there. >> much more to come, and michael moore, vaughn hillyard, i hope you'll both come back to talk to us about it. thank you so much for your time today. it has been three days since the shooting at michigan state university. we have new polling showing that a stunningly high number of

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new polling shows americans have never been as unhappy about our nation's gun laws as they are right now. 63% of americans are dissatisfied with current gun laws according to gallop, up 7 points since last year, the highest point in the 23 years that gallop has been keeping track. it begs the question, is washington listening? joining me on set, former director of the new york state democratic party. we have seen spikes before, other mass shootings, i'll tell you what surprised me about this. there's a sense among a lot of people that we have become numb to it. the problem for people who want change is that we have become numb to it. we almost expect it. people have been in multiple mass shootings, we heard from the folks at msu. does this suggest maybe not? >> it's hard to say, but my

guess is that we are becoming desensitized to it. as much as we want change, there's this other understanding that change is difficult if not impossible, particularly this congress. the assault weapons ban was 30 years ago, just about. it's highly unlikely we'll get anything close to that in the near future. remember columbine in 1999, we thought that was this defining moment and now we're still talking about msu, the buffalo shooter was just sentenced. today lucy macbeth is celebrating her son who would have celebrated his birthday today, though he was shot by an individual who thought the music that his friends were playing was too loud. we have a gun culture in this country that is unshakable and unmovable. the one thing that i will say that may change the dynamic, because we've talked about this before is that it's affecting the suburbs more than it ever

did. it's not being racialized and urbanized in a way that it used to be, and it's children, more and more children, hundreds of thousands are being exposed to gun violence in schools every day. and maybe that changes the dynamic a little bit. but if it's not happening at the state level, it's unlikely it will happen at the federal level. >> you can't look at the pictures of the three students killed at msu and not think about the futures lost. going to be a pediatrician. is there, though, in this poll, something that democrats, and not 100% democrats, mostly democrats, but people who want to see change can use, can capitalize on it, how do you take a moment if you see people are frustrated and turn it into something, even if it's not something sweeping. >> i always say, run for office in your state houses, it has some of the lowest turnout in these elections but that's where the gun laws can be changed. new york has strong gun laws, so does illinois but the legal guns

that people have in those states aren't coming from within those states. they're coming elsewhere. we have to focus on mobilizing people in the states where in that iron triangle, change the state laws from within, and then i think you see a network of change across the country. >> it's one of the things people are learning, guns, abortion, so many issues that are really focused now on the state level. basil smikle, always great to have you here, thank you so much. that's going to do it for us this hour. join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday, 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern every weekday. on msnbc. katy tur reports is up next. msc katy tur reports is up next.

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good to be with you, i'm katy tur. the presidential just spoke for the first time about the unidentified objects shot down over american and canadian airspace over the weekend, but we've got to start on capitol hill with breaking news on a sitting senator. pennsylvania senator john fetterman who suffered a stroke during the campaign last year has just checked himself in to the hospital for clinical depression. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent julie tsirkin, what's going on? >> reporter: we just got a statement a couple of minutes ago from fetterman's chief of staff who says in a statement, quote, last night, senator john fetterman checked himself into walter reid national medical center to receive treatment for clinical depression. ied