off to a good start for nikki haley this week. >>, no it's not. and what she should really be worried about, here's what she should really be worried about. donald trump is not afraid of her. donald trump just quietly said, good lock. and faded into the background. if donald trump is afraid of somebody, he comes after them. with everything he's got. he's not afraid of nikki haley and it's obvious. and i don't know how she -- republican party. despite spouting poll tested phrases that don't mean anything. she's in trouble. >> it seems like it's off to a rocky start. claire mccaskill, michael steele, always a pleasure. thank you very. time and that is all in on this thursday night. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for chris hayes. alex wagner tonight starts right now. >> it's always good to see you, a man. great to share the studio with you. great show. and thanks to at-home for joining us. first, it was the lawyers, trump attorneys john eastman

and rudy giuliani were subpoenaed to testify by the fulton county district attorney in georgia. about their involvement in trump's scheme to overturn the election results in that state. the da also subpoenaed three other lawyers, whose names you may remember from the january six hearings, jenna alice, clara mitchell, and kenneth chesebro, all of them appear before the special grand jury in fulton county. at the same, time those subpoenas -- also subpoenaed senator lindsey graham. again, related to his involvement in that scheme. for context, ten days after the 2020 election senator graham placed a phone call to georgia secretary of state, brad raffensperger. the georgia secretary of state told the washington post at the time, he was stunned by graham 's request to toss out huge swath of legally cast ballots. but a few days later, senator graham denied he'd ever said such a thing, instead he said that he wanted to talk about the process for future elections. >> did you or did you not ask

him to throw out votes? >> no, that's ridiculous. i talked to him how -- i suggested if you go forward, can you change to make sure that bipartisan teams verifies signatures. >> that postelection phone call quickly became a focus of the district attorney's criminal investigation. senator graham fought his subsequent subpoena to common testify but the fighting did not work and so senator graham also wound up in the hot seat before that fulton county ground jury. then there was former chief of staff mark meadows, who's also called to testify. meadows had been part of that infamous phone call where than president trump pressured election officials to find him 11,000 votes to tip the election in his favor. meadows also travel to georgia on trump's behalf to monitor the states audit of the vote. so, meadows was ordered to testify before the grand jury, but to this day we don't have any reporting to confirm that he ever actually dead. , then there was mike flynn, the trump ally and conspiracy

theories who advocated that trump declare martial law. and seize voting machines after the election. he was also forced to testify. , so i want to keep people from a lot of key moments. all of them among the 75 people who were called to testify before that fulton county grand jury. and now all those people at least the ones i just mentioned are presumably on the phones with their lawyers. trying to recall exactly what they said in those hearings. and that's because today, three parts of the special grand jury's report were released on a judges orders. it confirmed, that a majority of the grand jury believes that perjury may have been committed by law or more witnesses testify before. the grand jury recommends the district attorney seek appropriate indictments for such crimes or the evidence is compelling. translation, at least one of the witnesses who appeared before that grand jury appears to have lied. and could end up in jail.

today reporters caught up with senator lindsey graham who said he was confident that he hadn't perdram south before rushing out of the room to avoid answering more questions. >> yes, i'm very confident i have no idea what they're going to do. i'll leave it up to them. >> you're hoping you're not one of the ones that purchase themselves? >> i'm confident. >>. you can add that to the pile official groups in georgia that have found trump's clean of widespread voter fraud to be patently false. former president trump first part used to release of this report to prematurely declare victory. on his social media platform, truth social, trump's claim that the report amounted to, quote, total exoneration. noting the sections of the report released today don't mention his name once.

they don't mention many names at all. one potential reason trump's name doesn't appear in the sections of the report released today, could be because he's still the subject of the criminal investigation, one where the da may soon have to decide whether or not to charge him with a crime. with the special grand jury's work now finish, that decision about whether or not to bring criminal charges against the former president, that decision could come any day now. joining us now is michael moore, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia. mr. moore, thanks for being. here i want to start with the bread crumbs that we are following today upon the release of a short section of this report. the phrase one or more witnesses in the sentence may have committed perjury. is that meaningful to you? >> i'm glad to be with you tonight. i'll tell you, i don't know anybody that appeared before the grand jury all the taking great comfort in anything that was sad.

they probably should be calling their lawyers, if they're not they've wasted an afternoon -- rotten unusual waters here and it's really uncharted territory because you don't see these reports in georgia. we don't have special grand jury's very often. we have a criminal grand jury, so there is really no playbook to play by for this type of report. the special purpose granbury said some things, the judge redacted most of the report, and he did that sort of balance in the interest of the public had access to some information and protect the da's investigation. and the due process rights of differential defendants in the case. we're seeing something that isn't a normal occurrence in the superior court of fulton county. it's unusual to have a grand jury that says they don't believe some of the witnesses. that may happen at times a prosecutor in the confines of

the grand jury room, but not necessarily in a public filing like this, are a public report that gets put out. my guess is at the end of the day, you have to find that those people that challenge the subpoenas, filed frivolous claims of privilege, and other things to keep from having to testify before a grand jury, again, you'll find some correlation likely between those names in the people of the grand jury or thought polluting less than forthcoming, less than candid with them. >> one of those names that appears and bright lights is that of senator lindsey graham. who we already know that there is a disagreement between two people in including him involved in a central part of this scheme. the secretary state of georgia, brad raffensperger says that senator graham asked him to eject votes. senator graham says, he did not. assuming they both said the same thing to the ground jury, that means that one of them is lying. am i doing the math wrong here? >> no, we are doing it.

right and the problem for senator graham is that secretary raffensperger laid it really secretive about it, what happened was he went public, and made some public comments about how he felt about the call. and when he thought the purpose of the call was. so, those contemporaneous statements at the time are gonna come down to bite senator graham if in fact he's one of the people that the grand jury was talking about. but remember, this is just a report it's almost like a recommendation to the da that you can take, she can reject the whole thing, put in a file drawer another look at it before -- this does not mean that she will move forward with charges. it means that there's a grand jury hearing, who felt like they weren't get the full story. so, time will tell if she wants to bring a privy charge, will have to play forward with other likely defendants in the case. and she may decide that that's enough. we'll see.

this report, you can't have beef stew without carrots and potatoes and beef, we have the carrots and potatoes, arab or waiting on the beef. to see at the end of the day what's gonna shake out in this investigation. >> i will assume that some brunswick stew metaphor? >> that's just a good beef stew. you gotta have the carrots and potatoes, but we're waiting on the beef. >> just real quick, trump, the president the former president saying that he's fully exonerated by this report. which is as you point out, it's not a charging document. it's basically georgia's version of the january six committee, right? they had a lot information, and they're issuing their recommendation, it's up to the da to decide what to do with a. do you think the presidents on any solid ground here and claiming -- exoneration? >> he's putting more spin on that then a basketball player with a ball.

there is no comfort he can take in this report in the silliness of it. off a statement. it's that the judge said specifically, of taking the names out, i'm taking the recommendations out -- should be indicted. so, to say now. my name is out, it's sort of laughable at this point. it's not surprising that he would call to testify before the grand jury, typically across -- if they have a target, are subject of the investigation you don't bring him in to put on a circus in front of the grand jury. and claim the fifth time and time again, and over and over. i'm not really surprised at all. this is just classic trump. -- is meaningless. and it may provide some fodder for channels, some supporters somewhere, but it's a completely meaningless statement that he put out. >> my name is not in a report

with no names. [laughter] >> my name is not in it either. >> and mine -- mine is also not in there. i'm also. exonerated michael more, thank you for your time. thanks for joining us this evening. joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi counsel and senior member of special counsel robert mueller's investigation. andrew, i just said yesterday, let's camp out here. because i just want to talk about this all the time. what's your reading, again, of a middle east can't literature that we have on the grand jury's findings? what's interesting to you? >>, first i've been totally exonerated, that rang about. because of course, of the eight pages we've had we, have 400 pages were donald trump said where he's exonerated, which he wasn't. here it's so silly, it's a very very redacted, pages so just to

highlight something that i think -- you alluded to. but to point out something that's interesting that you had unanimity on this issue of was there fraud, widespread fraud in the election. and it's interesting that that wasn't unanimous. but the issue of whether people, anybody had committed perjury was by majority. and that tells me that there will be critical thinkers. this wasn't a -- block of people who are saying all the same thing. so, it was like one small piece of tea leaf reading. >> in the summer we got. they said you'll find in the four report who voted yes and no uncertain thanks. >> which is fascinating. as a former trial lawyer, the idea that a jury is gonna give you their breakdown in a case, it just doesn't happen. we don't get a breakdown. and this is what the grand jury thinks. it's just who thought what. usually you just get, there is an indictment, or there's not

an indictment, you don't get that it's 14 people, seven people, and these people just set -- it's fascinating to me. to have such a strong breakdown. >> do you think that could be at all an issue? i'm an amateur leader scholar, very amateur legal scholar, but it seems the da has some civilian cover if she does pursue an indictment here, right? >> absolutely. >> she has the folk of georgia making the call on these plays. and if we now, if she does go forward with high stakes indictments. and we then read the full report and learn, while not all the folk of georgia wanted to move forward on for example, criminal indictment of senator lindsey graham. or donald trump. does that complicate her mission at? all >> know, it remains to be seen. i don't know if it's a close call, maybe, but you might find that it's more diverse when it comes to georgia electors but not with donald trump.

it remains to be seen. i just don't think that's gonna come out in a way that at trial it's gonna hurt somebody. at the end of the, day your analogy to this is what the january six committee vis-à-vis of jay, is a really good one. >> thank. you >> all take the winds where i can get them. >> because this is interesting, it's nice to know what they thought. and here they were sitting with evidence. but at the end of the day the person who has to make the call is the da and the grand jury. she's gonna -- second ground jury that will decide just the issue, is there probable cause. so, this is yes you can get cover in a statewide january six committee can give doj cover. this can help public acceptance, if there is the first ever indictment of a former president. having sort of public acceptance of why it's being done. and why they're some legitimacy. it's gonna be critical. more critical than any critical

-- i certainly was involved in. or that any of us -- >> certainly, and the stakes from a state da to go, shoot for the moon as at war with the former president. what do you see is the timeframe here, you make the important point there's another grand jury that's involved here, it's not like fani willis is off to the races. what should be expecting in terms of -- ? >> one thing it's not like a new grand jury needs to reinvestigate everything, and hear from the same witnesses. all that can be read, so you don't have a lot of time for that. i also find it interesting when i'm thinking about the timeframe. that we're not hearing about new witnesses being called into that grand jury. so, i my suspicions are just that. is that what she's doing is preparing for all of the onslaught that she is going to have to be ready for when she brings in a tight man.

so, for instance, there's all sorts of motions that will be made if the former president is charged, and change of venue to take the case federally. she's gotta prepare for that, to challenge the grand jury, the minutes of the grand jury. i can see her really wanting to have all her ducks in a row. so, in this is brought, all of that's thought through. so, it reminds me in that sense when i was in a special counsel investigation. there's a lot of work that goes into things other than the actual charge. and being ready for the court fight that's about to happen. >> unlike anything we've ever seen. speaking of federal investigations, i do want to call your, attention to -- i like talking about subpoenas. the thing that gets me up in the morning. mike pence has been served a subpoena to testify to the doj's investigation responsible counsel jack smith. there's been a lot of back and

forth. about the reasons he's invoking about not having to comply with the subpoena. he was asked point black last night by our own lana, about whether he would testify -- i want to play that sound. it's very telling. >> the issue here is whether or not a vice president served as president in the senate should be subject to a subpoena to appear in court. >> would you voluntarily -- >> the justice department has insisted on that. and i'm reserving that right in the event that this were a matter that would go to trial. we simply made it clear to them we don't think it's not only unprecedented but it's unconstitutional. so, -- >> would you be open -- to >> i'll tell you, i've written extensively about this, i've spoken extensively. >> really, he could just testify. >> well, there is this issue though. why not just do it voluntarily. and i need to say when i was in the government i thought, you

have an obligation to the public. if your apology, you're supposed to speak, you're paid by the taxpayers, i know this may sign naive, but when i was listening to nikki haley sort of dodge, i only kicked a little kick to the site -- you're running for the highest office in the land. you have an obligation to knots -- you need to answer the question. so, i thought the vaughn hillyard questioning was fantastic. why are you just not doing this out of a sense of patriotism in terms of what the public said. and whatever the chips are, they fall where they may. so, the truth helps someone and it can hurt someone. it's not your job -- but i need to say one thing i will say is the speech and debate clause issue. it's going to be more complicated than people think. >> which is the defense. what he's invoking right now. >> exactly. i don't think people who say

there's no ground for it, there's no basis, i think that's too much. i think this is a novel issue. he does have sort of -- a dual role as vice president. so, he sits in the white house now but not that long ago the vice presidency we used to set the capitol. their salary comes from the capital. there is an interesting hi brad, he's gonna play that up. i don't think it would prevent him from testifying completely. but i do think that this is not one or we should just say, dismissive. we all know why he's doing. it but that doesn't mean that there isn't until some colonel there that may, the court may quickly with you. on >> it's like star trek for law. going where no man's ever gone before. >> another great analogy. >> they're rolling off. me andrew weissmann, thank you sir for your time. we have quite a bit to get to tonight, we'll talk to the reporter who's latest reporting is raising new questions about

just exactly when and how a former high-level fbi counter intelligence official got tangled up with a controversial russian all of dark. and if you're wondering whether other states are following georgia's lead and investigating potential criminal behavior in around the 2020 election. we've got some news for you. that's just ahead. at's just ahead. why are 93% of sleep number sleepers very satisfied with their bed? maybe it's because you can adjust your comfort and firmness on either side. your sleep number setting. to help relieve pressure points and keep you both comfortable all night. and now, save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed. ends monday.

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>> georgia wasn't the only state where president trump falsely claimed that there was election fraud. georgia wasn't the only state republicans issued a separate slate of fake electors. the schemes also unfolded in new mexico, arizona, nevada, pennsylvania, west conson and michigan. and the justice department is starting to zero in on them. in december, special counsel jack smith sent granbury subpoenas to state and local election officials from six states. basically, every battleground state that the fake electors scheme -- except for new mexico. he's seeking any and all communications those officials had with trump. his campaign and his allies. and while it's notable that a fake electors scheme touched that many states. the efforts to -- were particularly zealous. just two weeks after the presidential election, trump himself some into michigan republican legislators to the white house. do you remember?

that it was right as he was contesting the states election results. they met, trump and those officials for nearly an hour. despite that pressure, the two legislators left the meeting promising to follow the law. and follow the normal process regarding michigan's electors. the attempt to subvert the will of michigan's voters did not end there. on december 14th 2020 -- signed on to their own certificate to michigan 16 electoral college votes. they actually try to break into the state house to deliver their electoral votes. just trying to blow past security. ultimately, law enforcement block them. those fake -- entering michigan's capitol the night before. and hiding out overnight. if you ensure they'd be inside the state senate chambers on the 14th to deliver those fake votes. in the end, joe biden certify the winner by a little more than 154,000 votes. though trump didn't make a call to the michigan secretary of

state to find another 154,000 votes that we know of. the brazenness of his attempt to steal the election in that state it rivals the scheme in georgia. which is perhaps why attorney general dana nessel open investigation into the michigan fake electors scheme. and referred to the u.s. attorney's office for the west district of -- january of 2022. and last bat, she reopened her criminal probe into the electors scheme saying quite candidly,, yes for reopening our investigation, we don't know what the federal government plans to do. meanwhile, the claims of election fraud didn't end there even though it's the year 2023. michigan's -- happened in 2020, it's also moving quickly to try and in-flight the states election infrastructure from the wrought of election denialism in the years to come. joining us now is -- front of that fight, michigan secretary of state, josh benson, madam secretary, thank you for

being here tonight. -- i know you are busy doing the important work of trying to save democracy. i want to get to some of the measures that you're proposing in your state to ensure that the sin city of democracy -- i just want to start, if you could with this moment for reexamining the outlandish, brazen, anti-democratic efforts to steal the election in 2020, and remind us what it was like to live through what happened in michigan in 2020. >> it was a constant every day, constant whack-a-mole. not to be so flippant, about every day we wake up thinking, is this it, have we protected against every potential challenge, and it became clear every day that indeed, every lever was gonna put, every tactic was gonna be dry day after day after day. after we got -- and had shut down the fake electors scheme. we thought that none of us had

anticipated the depths to which people would go all the way up to the tragedy at our u.s. capitol on january. six in that moment, on january six i realize that we should never underestimate just that far people are willing to go to further the political agenda. and overturn the will of the people. >> as you witness what's unfolding down and witness cohen -- work being done by the district attorney there, fani willis, the number of high-level trump officials she subpoenaed. the testimony she's got. in the report that's forthcoming, charges or decisions on charges are eminent. do you think it's a shot in the arm to other state level officials that are saying, we're gonna hold these folks accountable. just because he's a former president or a current senator, or whoever it is. it doesn't mean that they're insulated from following the law. >> absolutely. the truth, law, justice, the constitution. they're all in a sidewalk lissie in the will of the people. but if we don't have consequences, for those who are

a part of what was a well coordinated national effort to overturn a presidential election. the bat valuable of the people, if there's no consequences, we don't have any assurance that will be tried. again in 2020, people showed up outside my home. outside our state capital. i don't like clarks throughout our states homes. and of, course everything we saw in fulton on january six occurred. we hope to never experienced anything like that again. we have no assurance that we want unless there's real consequences that we have yet to see. i'm grateful that our attorney general in michigan has said,, look at the federal government has plans to do. on this court today -- but we in michigan will seek justice against those the try to affront our voters and take away our voters voices. and i'm really proud that she continues to lead and work with all of us to seek justice. more the aunt -- we saw michigan. >> are you heartened by the fact that the doj has requested documents from michigan officials, the special counsel

seems to be looking at your state now, tell me how that ranks in terms of, full stop, your heart and. tell me about the efforts that you're engaged in to make sure that this does not happen again, could you outline some of them and how they might work? because election misinformation, and election fraud feels like it's -- groundwater. how do you combat it from -- ? >> well, one, again legal consequences and political consequences are key. volker -- up and down the ticket, those that are running on a platform of denying legitimate results for the 2020 election. we have the will of the people to enact policies that would do everything from protect election workers from the threats that this misinformation generates. to addressing those who intentionally spread disinformation by seeking action there. we want to make it against the law to intentionally lie to voters about their rights, about their democracy. and to address these practices

while also ensuring that our system itself is protected from the evolution of what that misinformation generates. we hope we're working with other ships as. well it's again wasn't just about michigan. nevada, arizona, all of it, we're all part of. it but we hope to lead michigan by showing what real consequences look like. and accountability looks like. in preparation to prevent against future efforts. >> are you at all worried about when you talk about criminalizing this information, are you worried about waiting into the debate over civil liberties, that's unfolding for example on social media? does that complicate what you're trying to do it all? >> we respect, and will respect the parameters of the first amendment. it's not about appropriate or legal to lie to people -- commercial advertising that should be not appropriate by people to intentionally lie. and spread disinformation about our elections and the rights of voters. especially when we know so often there connected directly

to threats of violence against those very people that make our democracy work. , so in michigan we're working to protect people -- and protect the people who participate and it. the voters from fraud, deceptive practices, from any type of intimidation or violence at the polls. >> it's like this consumer financial protection bureau but for democracy. michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson, thank you for a time tonight. we appreciate. it. >> thanks for having. >> me coming up, the latest was in the sack of the chinese spy balloon. and all the other stuff shut out of the sky after that. plus, new reporting raises concerns about a former fbi official indicted over his work for a controversial russian oligarch. specifically, about when that relationship began. we'll talk to reporter who's been getting all the scoop, that's next. that's next.

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>> during his tenure at the fbi, he oversaw roughly -- fbi agents in new york and handed the head of the recruitment of foreign spies to come work for the u.s.. he handled some of the most highly sensitive intelligence of this role of the fbi had a counter intelligence in new york. and now he's federally indicted, twice. his name is charles mcgonigle, he left the fbi in 2018, but

this past about the justice department charged mcgonigle with taking and concealing over $200,000 from an albanian intelligence officer while still working at the fbi. they also of charge mcgonigle would violating u.s. sanctions by warning for a notorious russian oligarch, oleg dara pasta. who has close ties with vladimir putin. the fbi alleging it's -- from derek pastime, after mcconnell of the fbi in 2018. and it doesn't appear to concern espionage. the new reporting today from insiders, posing a handful of questions as to when exactly that russian relationship began. here is the report. in 2018, mcgonigle travel to london, where he met with a russian contact was under surveillance by british authorities, to u.s. intelligence sources told insider. insider was able to determine the year, but not the month of the meeting. the four source noted that regardless of whether the meeting occurred before or after mcgonigle retired from

the fbi in september of 2018. it suggested a serious and extended relationship. what does this all mean in terms of mcconnell's russian contacts? did he foster these relationships while he was at the fbi, and if so, when? also, remember roughly two years before this meeting, the fbi was the center of some very highly controversial work. including an investigation into hillary clinton's emails, and a probe into the trump campaign's possible links to russia. , welcome this new reporting act to our understanding of this mess, or as one source describes it, what the f-was he thinking. joining us, now is a reporter on that. peace match ward, senior correspondent at insider. he was the force to -- mcgonigle of estimation in september. and he's been the lead reporter on the story with scoops galore. matt, it's great to have you here. thank you for joining me. i want to get right to the timeline here. 2018, we know this meeting

happen. do you suggest in pace that it may have proceeded, the correspondence between mcconnell and this russian asset, we have proceeded the actual meeting? can you tell us, how you try to pinpoint the month in which this meeting happened, and you know what intelligence you have about the degree to which there was any back and forth prior to the meeting? >> certainly. so, we know the mcgonigle retired from the fbi it september of 2018. and we know this meeting with the russian, in london, who is under uk surveillance also occurred in 2018. we don't know whether he met with the russian before after his retirement. i try to pin it down, if anyone out there knows, please reach out. i've also tried to pin down exactly who this russian's. there are some indications in the indictment that suggests that it could be, possibly, -elect dara pasco, but we don't know. that i reached out to dara pass cars. people and they don't want to

compliment -- they have their own issues going with doj, what we do know is that charlie mcgonigle did travel to london, he met with the russian who was important enough for the british people to be watching. we know that the british were concerned enough about this meaning, to alert the fbi, it's actually rid of the u.s. embassy in london. and tell the fbi's legal attaché, this happened, and we're concerned about, it or -- i don't know exactly what was said but they were worried, we know that alert that went from the uk to the u.s. was part, at least part of the predication or the beginning of the fbi's investigation into mcgonigle. until that happened, it seems likely that the fbi may not have been aware that there was a problem here. >> matt, why would mcgonigle go, he's former head of counter-intelligence for the

fbi in new york. he must have known that this russian he was meeting it was under surveillance by the brett. wouldn't have known that? >> it's very likely that he would've known that. he would've been running the same intelligence and counterintelligence operations in new york city. that was his job. he would have known to some degree, the degree to which surveillance from the british would've penetrated london. it's possible that he was dumb, greedy, and anyway it's possible that he thought this meeting was above board. maybe he thought this sort of behavior, it happened after a tire attire, maybe thought going to work or speaking to this person for whatever reason was normal. it's also possible that he thought that he was recruiting this person as a source. and if that's, true sometimes as kind of relationships can go both ways. and someone doesn't know what they're getting into. but it's very strange that someone at his role, would basically be caught, meeting

with someone who both the british and his former players at the fbi seem to have felt from their strongly that he shouldn't have been meeting with. so, why did he do? this this is something that folks i've talked before the story asked over and over again. what was he thinking here, because it really seems like either a real miscalculation or a blunder, that you wouldn't expect someone in a senior role to make when the stakes are this. hi >> matt schwartz, the reporting has been relentless and eliminating. thank you for all of. it will follow the story as you post, senior correspondent at insider, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank, you alex. it was a pleasure. >> up next, memo to all republican balloon hunters out there. a white house announcement today highlights what can happen when you shoot first, and ask questions later. stay with us. with us i was born here, i'm from here, and i'm never leaving here. i'm a new york hotel.

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time. it was a great hands on science experiment that's made easy, because boone's like this are cheap, and easy for civilians to get their hands on. you can buy a ha altitude balloon for as little as $12. an illinois high altitude balloon hobbyist group that uses balloons like these, has come forward to say, that their balloon which they were using to float ham radio transmitters, went missing. it was last spotted over the yukon territory in alaska, on the same day that the u.s. government shot down an unidentified object a similar description, altitude, and location with a lockheed martin f-22. so, there is a non zero chance that the u.s. government used a 400,000 dollar missile to shoot a ham radio transmitter on a 12-dollar balloon, out of the sky. today president biden confirmed that other than the initial chinese spy balloon, the three other mystery objects to the u.s. shot down were likely scientific, or civilian balloons. publics -- jumping up and down over how

much an emergency these balloons are. and how everything needs to be shot out of the sky basically as soon as we see it. but maybe we need to cooler jets here. literally. joining us now is shane harris, intelligence and national security reporter for the washington post. shane, thank you for being here. but the balloon as a science experiment is something that's happening in middle schools all over the country. and now maybe we're using f-22 fighter jets -- to shoot them down. is this the new normal, do you think the pentagon has to adopt a new political posture, a new posture because of politics on the chinese balloon? >>, well as sad as i feel for some of the students whose balloons were shot down, and the search for them has been suspended apparently in canada. so, how much do your science -- if they're not gonna go looking for it. , now i think that the pentagon is a very awkward position that there and as you pointed out. where they're scrambling jets, and the reason why we should say that they're spotting these balloons. they've recalibrated the radars,

there's all kinds of different intelligence components that are going to spotting these, things but, yes they need to go up and check to see if there are -- this is untenable. obviously the pentagon can't scramble f-22s at retime a science project or a commercial weather balloon passes on the radar. i think right now, three guys are trying to figure out how they discern chinese surveillance balloons, which we're all familiar with from science projects like this. because no, they can't afford to be sending jets after small balloons floating in the air. >> i was surprised the u.s. government can't tell the difference between what could be a foreign government spy balloon and a middle school weather project. did that surprise you, it's certainly the government isn't admitting that this is a middle school science project. as yet -- the distinction couldn't be made given the technology that we have seems surprising to me. >> yeah, it did actually. it's funny because i've been running for a number of years

about the so-called uap, or an adaptive -- unidentified aerial phenomenon, which we've talked about before. these little green men, or are these drones, or are they balloons, what are they. the military is looking closely at this. but what we think has happened in the past several months, where we've seen both the chinese spy balloon that came across the continental united states recently. there was one that crashed back in june, this brought a lot of attention off the coast of hawaii. but what our sources have told us is that the intelligence committees taking what they've learned about these actual surveillance balloons, and kind of used it to understand more about other objects that are out there floating in the atmosphere. and they've recalibrated the radar in recent days. and people of use this analogy, if you're on a shopping website, and you're on selecting certain boxes on that website, you're gonna get tons more hits. maybe things that you filtered out that you didn't want to see before. now they're gonna appeared of u.s. options. the radar that the military is used, essentially, is like that

for a lot of these slow-moving, high altitude objects. they just filter that out. they thought, it's not a missile, it's not a fighter plane, it's probably harmless. we don't need to look at it. but now they're looking. at it because of the giants by balloon floated across the united states. that's what's prompting a lot of this reaction i think. and, hopefully they'll calibrate so we don't have to do this every time. >> hopefully. there seems to be electors better uses for our radar. how much has been made about the sort of ridiculousness of the situation. and the politics of. it from a national security perspective, how developed is the chinese spy balloon in terms of actual intelligence gathering, how concerned should we be as it is a component of the chinese spy program? >> officials i've talked to. u.s. officials have said it doesn't rank very high -- hierarchy of intelligence gathering capabilities. they have satellites that can do a lot of this work. they have very sophisticated computer hack operations that can take information off computer networks.

the balloons that have a certain advantage in that they can hover over, or later over a certain target for a longer period of time. maybe take pictures of different resolutions, gather communication signals, and satellites that are spinning around the earth maybe have only a few minutes to take pictures, gather intelligence as they pass around the target. so, the balloons are useful but when u.s. officials are saying, but not a really high priority -- as part of a broader program. and they're pretty confident this balloon can cross over the u.s. earlier in february, did not gather a lot of useful information. >>, shane i just think it's amazing that middle school students -- first of, all a it's a good time to be alive when middle school students have the tech that's readily available -- for a spy program. also, balloons, bonus come in different shapes like for example, pikachu, or a football, and that then i would assume makes them appealing to all kinds of people across the globe. shane harris, thank you for

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we'll see you again tomorrow. and now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening. there will be a dramatic reading coming up on the show of fox text messages that have been revealed tonight in a legal filing