tv Morning Joe MSNBC February 17, 2023 3:00am-7:00am PST
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information he believes has come from the white house. that's based on the intelligence briefings he's attended with other senators about these balloons. but this was before biden's speech. biden has gone for trying to address that point, making it clear that what was shot down, these last three balloons, were not surveillance balloons, aircraft, should we say. antony blinken is going to meet with his counterpart this week in munich to address the ongoing tensions between china and the u.s. hopefully that will put a stop to this. we must note these balloons are more common than people believe. there have been balloons over 40 countries in the past few years around the world. >> we'll have updates from the munich security conference all weekend long on msnbc and live reports from poland ahead of president biden's speech there. senior politics reporter for "ax owe axios," thank you for
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joining us, eugene scott. have a great weekend, everybody. thank you for joining us "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. because we won the state. >> that conversation is the main reason a special grand jury in georgia is investigating election interference. yesterday, we got some of their report, and it reveals that the jurors believe that witnesses lied to them. and, somehow, the former president, donald trump, thinks this report exonerates him. we'll explain why that's not even close to being true. plus, the group trump famously told to stand back and stand by now wants to call him as a witness in its trial tied
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to january 6th. we'll have an update on senator fetterman, who is in walter reid for treatment of clinical depression. he checked himself in. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, february 17thment we have the host of "way to early," "politico's" jonathan lemire. executive editor of "the recount," john heilemann. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan is with us. professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. is with us. great group we have. a lot going on this morning, joe. >> a lot going on. we're going to, obviously, start in georgia. but, john heilemann, you know, sometimes there's statements that are layered with ambiguities. you listen to them, and the more you listen, the more you think, well, maybe, maybe there's a mitigating factor here. maybe this person meant this. maybe they meant that.
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no. the more you hear donald trump's call with the secretary of state of georgia, demanding one more vote than he lost by, it keeps getting worse every time. every time i hear it, i come away with it thinking, there's just no way they're not going to indict that guy in georgia. >> the only slight amendment i'd say to that, joe, is it was pretty clear from the beginning. we all heard it the first time. what was so stunning when we first heard it was, man, that's naked. there was not a lot of, like, parsing to do when you first heard it. what's amazing is every time you go back to it, it's just as clear as the first time. i think i'll go back and, when i listen, i'll find something new here. no, no, it's as blatant and gratuitous as it was on first listening. i agree with you, you know, it would be more shocking
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inexplicable, by far, if he doesn't indicted given the evidence in front of this grand jury. crazy things happen in american grand juries and the legal system, so never say never, but a lot of people will be stunned, certainly anyone who is even just a simple country lawyer like you, but anyone familiar with the american legal system will be stunned if he isn't and will ask the question, what is the point of the law if this doesn't get in man indicted? >> yeah. we'll take that first look now at the report. the fulton county grand jury put it together on potential interference in the 2020 election. three sections were unsealed yesterday. the introduction, conclusion and a section where a majority of the grand jury asserted that one or more witnesses may have committed perjury and recommended charges be filed. the identities of which witnesses the panel thought may have lied under oath was not revealed. senator lindsey graham, one of several high-profile figures to
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be questioned, told reporters, "i'm confident i testified openly and honestly." the unredacted pages revealed the jury unanimously concluded there was no fraud in the 2020 election. >> what a shock. >> the panel also voted to release the entire report to the public. the judge said that would not happen before the district attorney investigation is completed. former president trump took the release to mean he would not be indicted. writing on his social media platform, quote, thank you to the special grand jury in the great state of georgia for your patriotism and courage. >> why are we reading this? >> totally -- because it's fun. it's so stupid, it's fun. >> it's just such nonsense. >> well, it is, but it is beyond stupid. >> it is. >> it is almost -- i'm at the point where i think i have to laugh. otherwise, i'd cry.
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>> yeah. well, you know, let's bring in chuck rosenberg. chuck, the president's babbling notwithstanding, it seems there are plenty of reasons for donald trump, and others who testified, to be very concerned right now about criminal charges. what was your take away from just a little bit of the grand jury report we were able to see yesterday? >> well, that's right. i mean, joe, there's good cause for a whole bunch of people to be concerned. the district attorney in fulton county has identified 20 or so targets. a target is a likely or putative defendant. there's reason for people to be worried. it is certainly not a total exoneration, though it is possible mr. trump doesn't understand what the word exoneration means. what i take away from the report is simply this. a special grand jury sat for seven months hearing from scores
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of witnesses and believes crimes have been committed. now, it is not their job to indict those crimes. that's up to the district attorney. but she has a wealth of evidence. don't forget, the important thing here is not that the grand jury wrote a report. the important thing here is that the grand jury heard all of this evidence and all of this evidence is preserved for prosecutors to use at any subsequent trial that they may have. joe, if the important fact is you saw the light as green, and we put you in the grand jury and under oath you testified that the light was green, that is substantive evidence of the color of the light. if you change your story one day at trial, because you're nervous or scared or intimidated, and you say the light was red, we can use your old grand jury testimony as substantive evidence of what you actually saw, the truth. that's incredibly important to prosecutors. that's why prosecutors put witnesses in front of the grand
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jury, to lock in their testimony. the district attorney has all of that at her disposal. don't lose that point because that matters a lot to prosecutors. >> let's bring in politico reporter for the "atlanta journal constitution." greg, what can we expect next? >> first, donald trump's statement that he was exonerated is a flat out lie. we still don't know whether the former president will face charges or members of his inner circle. but district attorney fani willis suggested she'll seek charges. we can't be certain until she does. if she does, we don't know who she'll target, what charges, when they'll come. we do know now that perjury charges are on the table, and we know the grand jurors were unanimous in rejecting donald trump's false claims of election fraud. that's a good baseline where her investigation can start. we know prosecutors can exert leverage over those witnesses
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who might have purgered themselves. that can flip and lead to other charges. fani willis is not just looking at election fraud charges. she's also exploring conspiracy charges using georgia's pretty extensive anti-racketeering law. there's a lot of different statutes that could be on the table right now. >> greg, you're the g.o.a.t. down there when it comes to covering local politics and local government in that state. we hear about fani willis all the time. not that many people who follow this closely know that much about her and what her kind of m.o. has been. there's no case she's ever gotten involved in that has been this high-profile or consequential, but can you talk a little about her, her background, her ambitions, and how she's gone about doing that job in the time she's had it? >> yeah, she's not to be trifled with. he is a hard-nosed prosecutor here who led some of the prosecution against the atlanta school cheating trial that was national news, made into books and movies. right now as we are talking,
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she's leading prosecution against a massive gang, anti-gang charges involving different groups, different musicians and rappers. that's one of the biggest stories in georgia as we speak. she won an upset battle over an entrenched democratic incumbent who had been in office for years. she is also a democrat. she's facing re-election next year and has to look over her shoulder. as we are speaking, georgia republican lawmakers are thinking about debating legislation that would make it easier for voters to recall district attorneys. it is not directly aimed at her, but it could be used against her. >> well, political reporter for "the atlanta journal of constitution," greg bluestein, thank you very much. of course, talking about finding no fraud in the presidential election, an appeals court yesterday rejected failed
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arizona gubernatorial ruling from kari lake. it said lake did not provide enough evidence to support her claims that the election results were tainted by illegal votes and misconduct by election officials. the chief judge wrote, in part, the everyday ultimately supports the court's conclusion, that voters were able to cast their ballots, that votes were counted correctly, and that no other basis justifies setting aside the election results. this ruling comes as lake's lawyers are facing bar complaints over their work with the former candidate. the lawyers have already been sanctioned by a federal judge over an election-related lawsuit. where are these lawyers coming from, joe, that trump is getting and kari lake? who are these people? who are these people? where do they get them, off the side of the road? >> who are these men?
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who are these men, she asked from the witness stand, and women. you know, elise, we could step back for a second here and look at all the times we asked, are some people just above the law? the lawyers go in front of courts and lie? is there no recourse? is there no justice? we are finding now, time and time again, just look at the top two stories this morning. a grand jury found what was found time and time again by republican-appointed judges in georgia, by a republican governor in georgia, by a republican secretary of state in georgia, by republican elected officials in georgia, and we just had a judge panel -- a three-judge panel in arizona find what republicans in maricopa county found, republican-appointed judges found, republican officials found time and time again, that
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there was no election fraud. not only are these people facing justice in court, and donald trump may face the ultimate justice in court with the coming indictment in georgia, but even their lawyers are being held accountable for going in front of judges and just lying. again, this is something -- i guess as a lawyer, it's strange. as a politician, i understand, everything is on the table. you've got to swat everything away. but the lawyer in me has always been deeply offended by the arguments these people have made in front of judges. i asked myself from the beginning, how can rudy giuliani get away with that? how can these other lawyers get away with it? i would have been disbarred the first day if i tried to do something like that. chuck would have been disbarred as a lawyer if he tried doing something. how are these people getting away with this? we're finding out, as time goes on, elise, they're not getting away with this. >> i think of the ordinary
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citizen who is petrified of a traffic ticket, joe. they don't get away with it. it seemed like all of these lawyers and former government officials have gotten away with it. i think it'll reflect on the political fortunes down the road, especially for governor brian kemp. but you have all these top officials like donald trump. is he ever going to face consequences? >> right. >> giuliani -- >> i understand this feeling. >> -- is facing consequences. >> people are in jail. charged with seditious conspiracy. >> exactly. they face consequences, but when will donald trump actually face consequences? >> that is my question for professor eddie glaude. is it good that these people keep coming back to the trough and trying to find some sort of infraction against them, some sort of election conspiracy and
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judges keep saying, no, no, no, or is it good because judges keep saying no? or is it bad they keep coming back? they keep coming back. kari lake, donald trump, when will they ever go away and realize they lost and probably broke the law? >> it's a good thing judges are saying no. it is a bad thing, though, that they keep coming back. it erodes the trust in the democratic process. part of what joe, and we've been talking about, is americans have been awash in lies. those lies have, in some ways, affected our ability to engage in reasoned deliberation, to do the work that madisonian democracy requires. with donald trump tweeting the special grand jury's report is a clear exoneration of him, that's just fat elvis running the bill barr move with regards to
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mueller, right? we know these people are trying to pursue power and protect themselves. the ongoing effect, though, is, in some ways, you know, the erosion of the foundation of our democratic process. it is dangerous, mika. it is dangerous. >> chuck rosenberg, georgia is one of many places donald trump faces legal peril. we don't know if he will have to face the music. he might. he hasn't yet. threats remain in georgia, special counsel january 6th, that's, of course, the mar-a-lago documents, that's cases in new york, d.c., just about everywhere it seems, where do you assess these in terms of where he faces the greatest legal risk? and with the idea that, of course, any case that involves someone as high-profile as donald trump, it'd seem to be prosecutors would only bring a charge if they're really confident they can get a conviction.
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>> yeah, jonathan. let me take your second point first because it is an incredibly important one. as a federal prosecutor, our standards, guidelines, require we have a reasonable probability of conviction before we charge somebody. so a hunch doesn't cut it. my personal belief, jonathan, that you committed a crime isn't enough. to eddie's point, we need this pesky thing called evidence. the courts of the united states are where evidence matters. you know, you can say things that aren't true on television. you can say things that aren't true on the, you know, house floor. but in court, it matters. prosecutors need evidence. we only see a small portion of what prosecutors in manhattan may have or in fulton county may have or in jack smith's federal investigation, what they may have. it's hard for us to totality of the case against
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donald trump and others. but evidence matters in court. joe was talking about this i recallie earlier, right? if you show up without evidence, you lose. you may not lose in politics, but you lose in court. if you think back to the 60 or so cases that the trump folks brought challenging the election after november 2020, they lost every single one of them. the reason they lost every single one of them is they didn't have evidence. it's not that complex. jonathan, i don't know which case poses the greatest existential threat to mr. trump because i haven't seen all of the evidence. but good prosecutors and good agents are working on these cases. if they bring charges, it is because they believe they have a reasonable probability of conviction. our standard. if you do bring charges -- and this isn't just true for mr. trump, it's true for anybody, you want to bring charges that are going to hold up in court because they're evidence based.
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that's what we ought to be looking for and waiting for and watching for. >> chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney, as always, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you, chuck. >> john heilemann, speaking of losing and trump lawyers lost time and time and time again on all these cases, let's talk about kari lake who lost yesterday. let's talk about the trumpy lane she's decided to continue down. it's one of these things where i talk about how it doesn't make sense, that republicans keep doing the same thing over and over and losing. with kari lake, let's face it, she ran against a governor, a gubernatorial candidate who really didn't show up on the campaign trail. everybody thought she was going to win. any rational human being or any hman being somewhat rational
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would say, well, she lost because she took the crazy lane. there weren't enough crazy people in arizona in those swing precincts, those swing districts, to elect her governor. yet, she is doubling down and is probably going to run for senate in 2024. i'm just -- again, you don't have the answer to this, i'm sure, but the question raised is why in the hell would she be doing this when she knows it is a ticket to loserville? >> well, let's just say. >> let's break this down. >> i didn't think about this. joe, this is a great question. as you know, arizona, georgia. the new front line battleground states in 2024. you had this whole slate of election deniers in arizona.
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the "circus," we called it state of denial. arizona, the ultimate test tube of the republican party. there was fear among democrats. in biden world, if you imagine one or more of those candidates winning in arizona, especially governor or secretary of state, arizona would be off the map for joe biden. it was like, we won't be able to play there in 2024. that's a battleground state we won't dip our toes in because the state will have free and fair elections undermined by the governor or secretary of state. election day, as joe says, not only does kari lake lose, they all lose. they all get beaten. trumpism in its pure, distilled form in arizona gets beaten in the five, six races it was tested, election denial in the state. kari lake is pursuing the same line. this is all political, right? she doesn't think she's going to win in court. she is campaigning. she is going to run for the senate seat in 2024. she is making the calculation
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that, despite the losses up and down the ballot of election deniers in arizona, the way to win the republican nomination in 2024 for the senate seat is still to be in that lane with donald trump, the loser lane, the crazy lane. i got to say, -- talk to people around joe biden -- arizona has gone from, if the election deniers win, we'll have to give it to republicans, to, now, kari lake is joe biden's best friend. a republican ticket dominated by more election deniers, proven losers, all of a sudden, that state never is going to be easy, it is a battleground for a reason, but it is -- like, that is the electorate. that is the kind of republican candidate, kari lake with maybe another election denier at the top of the ticket, that opens the door to joe biden having the electorate he wants to face in arizona in 2024. >> yeah. so let's expand upon that. jonathan lemire, again, it wears
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me out that these republicans can't learn. >> like parenting. >> we talk about it every day. >> you do seem tired, joe. >> joe is very tired. >> no, it's like parenting a toddler. >> i know. >> that just doesn't learn. it's like, does kari lake not understand? do republicans not understand that -- just look at arizona or pennsylvania. look at herschel walker in georgia. i mean, does anybody question how dave mccormick would have done in a race in pennsylvania if he had been the republican senate candidate there? i mean, instead, you had dr. oz ending up losing by five points. you look at arizona. again, this is what i don't understand. republicans take this as hostility when they should take this as an act of paying the
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love, to say, you will lose arizona again if you have election deniers like kari lake on the ballot. go mainstream republican. by mainstream republican, i'm not talking about being a liberal, i'm talking about being a republican, being what republicans used to be, and you win states like arizona. you'll win states like georgia. but it is just so crazy. i mean, talk about how the biden camp -- all the things that trumpers think, not conservatives, that trumpers think they're doing to own the libs are the very things that the biden administration are praying for. they want donald trump at the top of the ticket because they know that gets joe biden four more years. they want kari lake on the top of the ticket in arizona when
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he's running in arizona. doug mastriano. they want all of these people that took the most extreme views because that's just a win for them. that means they win in 2017, they win in 2018, win in 2019, they win in 2020, they win in 2021, they win in 2022, and they win in 2024. why can't republicans figure this out? >> yeah, the biden campaign would endorse herschel walker moving to wisconsin, running there. [ laughter ] there is no doubt here that their path to re-election starts with those three great lake states. it is michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania. that said, to this point, arizona on the map now, when a few months ago, maybe it wouldn't have been. georgia still on the map. they're going to be close. no one is saying the president is definitely going to win, but he has a shot now, in part because of the candidates the republicans seem to be putting forward again. there is an interesting moment, elise, right now, about where
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the republican for they is going. you can be an election deier and still win your house seat. as much as the prominent election deniers lost in 2022, a number of republicans cruised to re-election. they don't believe joe biden should be president, that he was legitimately elected. nikki haley who, right now, is the only candidate in beyond donald trump, she made a point of saying joe biden is the president. he was elected. he should be in office. the moment now will be, do other republicans start to follow her lead? not her lead, but away from trump, leaving trump that much more isolated as the one guy, with a few accolades like kari lake saying, no, no, donald trump should still be president? will they be left alone, or will republicans drift back to him? >> i think there's 30% of the republican base that's going to stick with trump no matter what. it'll all depend on how many candidates get in, if donors put their money behind a wide republican field, or if they
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show discipline. that's what i'm watching, that 30% means that trump can win if there are four, five, six candidates. >> all right. we have a lot more to get to this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," president biden's message to china after the downing of a suspected surveillance balloon and three other aerial objects. we'll take a look at those new remarks. plus, the latest from ohio following that toxic train derailment two weeks ago. we'll talk to the head of the epa about what is being done to make sure residents are safe. also ahead, what we are learning about senator john fetterman's condition after he checked himself into the hospital for clinical depression. and the must-read opinion pages, including one piece entitled "the republicans have an acute trump dilemma." ed luce of "the financial times" joins us with that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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and bring manufacturing jobs back to america. president biden knows we can get more done if we come together. because joe biden's a president for all americans. joe." half past the hour. rainy look at reagan national airport in washington, d.c., this morning. president biden received a clean bill of health yesterday following a routine physical exam at walter reid national military medical center in maryland. in a memo, biden's personal physician wrote he, quote, remains a healthy, vigorous 80-year-old male who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the presidency. the medical assessment noted that biden had a small lesion removed from his chest during a dermatology consultation. it was sent off for a biopsy, and the results are still pending.
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we tell you all of this so we can, i don't know, take a trip down memory lane. >> oh, this will be fun. >> yeah. why not, right? always good. >> mm-hmm. >> here is dr. ronny jackson after donald trump's physical, if that's what you want to call it, when he was president in 2018. >> explain how a guy who makes mcdonald's and all the diet cokes and never exercises is in as good of shape as you say he is in. >> it's called genetics. i don't know. >> call it genetics. he went on to say, john heilemann, that trump had such great genes, that if he didn't eat badly, he'd live until he was 200 years of age. >> did he mean dad genes? >> i guess the shock of it is that, actually, people in the obama administration actually vouched for this guy for 15 minutes before he started doing
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this. again, the lies started rolling off his tongue. i guess they've continued over the past couple years. >> i mean, look, i would say, just to stand up for the good doctor here on one point, i mean, you know, if you think about trump's diet over the course of his life, you think about trump's -- the way he's taken care of his body, if you can use those words, "taking care" and "body" in the same sentence. think about the stress of the presidency, sleeping patterns, everything we know. the fact that the guy made it out of four years of the presidency alive is an amazing thing. i mean, with that -- if i had that diet, that lack of exercise and those sleeping habits, i'd be dead now, you know? there is something to the notion that he does have some kind of extraordinary genes. it is the case that the trump men, historically, in his family, have lived to ripe, old ages in general. i don't want to give too much credit to dr. jackson. obviously, you know, the dude is
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a whack job on a lot of levels, but there is something about donald trump, that he is still out there. he's still a wreck but upright. it's an incredible thing. >> didn't fred trump have really bad dementia at the end, though? >> both his parents lived to their 90s. >> okay. >> the white house, though, certainly this white house, not ronny jackson's white house, wanted to put this physical out. we know the president's age hovers over his re-election decision. he is 80 years old, undeniable. but he got a clean bill of health yesterday. they'll get back to reporters about the one skin lesion. they believe this should quiet some of the concerns that he is not up for the job, mika. >> yeah. >> did he have to identify, like -- did biden have to identify animals or say, dog, cat, camera, moose, pig, anything like that? i mean, i don't know. >> like, i think it is a good -- it's good to do physicals and say how is he doing at 80. >> sure. >> i will tell you, my mom was operating a chainsaw and making
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sculptures at 82 years old, completely fit for what she was doing. was creating some of her best work in her early 80s. >> the eighth wonder of the world, your mom. >> she was amazing. >> exactly. i mean, it is different with different people. >> it is. >> i will say, i had a chance to meet, in passing, president macron. it was just jarring. absolutely jarring to spend time talking to a leader who wasn't in his 70s or 80s. you're like, wait a second. i'm serious, he was in his 40s. i remember, you know, talking, just being jarred by it. you look back through history. eddie glaude, how old was martin luther king when he changed the world? he was a young, young man.
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>> absolutely. i mean, look, we know that president biden's age has been an issue. it will continue to be an issue, but this is a good thing. we do know that people can be functional and actually exhibit excellence up until their old age. but it would be nice to begin to see a new cohort of leaders to take a leadership role in the country. >> yeah, you look through history, jonathan lemire. you have winston churchill saved western civilization. didn't become prime minister until he was in his 60s. ronald reagan, of course, what, did he get elected at 69? i think he got elected at 69. so it really is just dependent on the individual who is in the office. i will say, joe biden's superpower, if he were an
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avenger, right, if joe biden were in the next "avenger" movie, you would have captain america with his powers. you would have thor with his extraordinary strength, and you'd have joe biden with his extraordinary ability to be underestimated. >> yes. >> underestimated time and time again. underestimated by the people on the far left when he first ran for president mocked and ridiculed on twitter constantly. just completely, completely ridiculed after iowa and new hampshire. time and time again, the first year, people saying, wait a second, i thought this guy was going to pass legislation. he can't get anything done. then, boom, an extraordinary streak of bipartisan legislation passed. then, of course, the midterms. we heard red wave, red wave, red
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wave. joe biden, once again, makes history at the head of his party, doing something a president didn't do in his first midterm election since fdr in the 1930s. i don't think a single incumbent democratic governor lost in the 2022 midterms. again, underestimated time and again. even as newt gingrich says, republicans who continue to underestimate this guy will continue to be beaten by him. >> yeah. reagan was just shy of his 70th birthday, joe, when he was sworn in. you make a good point about biden. we certainly know his age is going to be an issue. it will be on the republican side, too. we heard from nikki haley, sarah huckabee sanders in recent days, talking about it is time for a new generation. but there are democras who say, look, president biden is, yes, 80 years old. he'll be 82 years old come election day. but look at the record. and he is going to poland next week. he is the focal point.
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his leadership, american leadership on the world stage has held the alliance together and supported ukraine in its war against russia. that's an area he has received bipartisan praise for what he's done. lindsey graham saying this is a signature accomplishment for this president. he deserves credit here, the way he's held the alliance together. mika, age or not, this is something this president and his team can point to his record, they're confident of it. they also believe his age was litigated the last time around. he was not a young man in 2020. american voters still chose him. >> yeah. i agree. >> mika, leading up to the midterm election, we were asking people, should biden run again? they said, i don't know. they would not come out and say whether they thought he should run for re-election again. then, of course, democrats had
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massive success in the 2022 midterms, more so than anybody expected. kevin mccarthy thought they'd pick up 50 seats. he's still hanging on by a thread. look how well they did in the senate. look how they did with governor ships. they took all of michigan. again, it's the underestimation. but you look -- i think jonathan is right. perhaps his greatest achievement is an achievement that a lot of americans may not be paying close attention to, but it is how he's put back together the nato alliance. >> yes. >> an alliance that was fractured. an alliance that donald trump quite clearly wanted to blow to pieces. people close to trump said if he is elected again, we're going to finish off nato once and for all. you see with joe biden, a historic nato alliance. a historic response to russian aggression. and done so in a subtle way.
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i suspect when history books are written, many people will be saying of him what historians wrote about what harry truman did after world war ii. >> it is really -- it was very -- he was very underestimated. he's accomplished more than any modern president. is that fair to say, in two years? yes? >> yeah, right up there, sure. >> legislatively, you'd have to go back to lbj. >> in terms of his ability to perform. did you see his state of the union? who is making his age an issue? i'd like to know what evidence they have that his age is an issue. >> you know, one of the things, mika, there's always talk in the air about who is and who isn't past their prime and, you know, what the age of prime is. don't want to delve into the discussion. but most would say when you get into your -- into joe biden's age territory, 80, you know, you're definitely on the -- >> then you look at the performance and see he's doing great. like my mom with a chainsaw.
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>> here's the thing, though, i think this is a thing that's peculiar to our politics. i want to echo this. we sort of have developed a political culture where we systematically undervalue experience. >> correct. >> it's like the new guy, the outsider. >> it's the trumpy thing, forget history, forget experience. >> but it was true. obama had it. clinton had it. everybody was the outsider. you have to come in, you know, not having a lot of experience seen as beneficial. biden has been the guy on not just proving age is a mutable characteristic, you can still accomplish a lot in your 70s and 80s, but, like, experience actually in government -- >> wisdom. >> wisdom and experience actually matter. it is a big, complicated world, complicated government. >> i need to get our next guest in here. editor of "the financial times," ed luce. good to see you. your new column for the financial times is entitled, "the republicans have an acute
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trump dilemma." you write that the more crowded the 2024 race gets, the higher the chance that former president trump will secure the party's nomination. quote, in a straight matchup, ron desantis would beat trump according to most of the polls, but in a crowded field, trump could repeat what he did in 2016 when he won primary after primary with less than half the vote. from trump's point of view, the more candidates in the race, the merrier. the weaker trump seeks, the likelier others will enter the race. call this trump's heads, i win, tails, you lose, strategy. such is the familiar dread coursing through the republican establishment. few think that trump could beat joe biden, who shows every sign of running again. they believe every republican could beat biden. they are probably right. trump has never won the u.s.
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popular vote and is unlikely to start now. elise, you want to take the first question for mr. ed luce? >> sure. ed, have you seen any signs or heard from your sources that the republican establishment is going to actually try to be a limiting force with the pool of candidates in the republican primary? >> that's a really good question, elise. the party decides age of politics, particularly when it comes to the republican party. with the democrats, you did see jim clyburn, who is a party elder, intervening in 2020 for biden's benefit. i don't think there is an equivalent situation or equivalent figure or an equivalent donor on the republican side who could do this. if there were, they'd be pulling the lever pretty soon. i don't see that. i think you're going to see a lot of effort extended to
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persuade ron desantis to enter this cage. he seems to be a little reluctant. i guess there's no prizes for guessing why. meatball ron is something that trump apparently called him, although he now denies that he's used that italian aphobic nickname. he's the only one who gets a nickname from trump of this potential field. nikki haley hasn't got a nickname yet, i don't think. mike pompeo hasn't. there are obvious other contenders, like chris christie and, you know, a whole bunch of other governors, but i don't think there's a structure there any longer in the republican party, where the party decides that. that model has been blown up. we could get a repeat, where trump won 45% of the primary vote but took 70 of the
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delegates. 40% something in florida but 100% of the delegates. it benefits him to have a large field. i don't know anybody who can quietly tap nikki haley or mike pence on the shoulder and say, look, could you bow out for the sake of greater party interest? i don't think that exists. >> this is eddie glaude. i really found your piece fascinating, but it took me to another aspect of this. even if we narrow the field, if there weren't a lot of folks in the primary, would we still find the two candidates appealing to those disaffected, white voters? the way in which trump offered this strategy to expand the electorate was by appealing to white voters. if you narrow it, would we still see that play, the struggle over that lane to appeal with
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grievance and fear? does that make sense? >> yeah, i fear so. i mean, i think nikki haley, part of her wants to be the mitt romney kind of candidate, the pre-trump era candidate. but she knows that's not where the base is. the maga spirit is just as strong. if they don't get trump, they want somebody like trump. on paper, that's ron desantis. i'm skeptical as to whether, in practice, when we see the whites of his eyeballs in iowa or new hampshire or wherever it would be, if he did decide to run, i'm a little skeptical he's got the retail, that visceral, almost demonic retail sort of ability that trump has. it's certainly what the big donors thing, the charles kochs, the griffins, elon musks, they're fans of desantis.
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desantis is capable of bull horning racially on gender politics as trump is. >> ed, i'll first say something on behalf of meatball diversity. you know, there are many meatballs that are not from italy. that's not necessarily -- >> meatball is my cat. >> swedish meatball. meatball the cat. let's be clear, not an anti-italian slur. >> yes. >> but here's the other lesson of 2016, right, about the multi- -- it's true, there was a big, wide, multi-candidate field, and trump was able to mow them all down. it benefitted him to have the split vote of his opposition. the other thing that benefitted him was the fact that all of those candidates did not take him seriously from the beginning. they thought, in the end, he will fade. in the end, this is just a branding exercise. he won't stick with it. in the end, i will get him one-on-one. in the end. they didn't attack trump at the outset. trump was allowed to march through from july until february when he started actually winning
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contests before anybody said, i have to take donald trump on. they all had this theory they'd eventually get him one-on-one so they'd lay off him. i wonder in this field if something everyone knows is, yes, a split field helps him, but a whole bunch of candidates who all realized that trump is strong, he is a dominant figure of republican politics for all these years, that they all need to attack him. whether you can have a world whether thislogic is flipped on its head, and you have republicans gunning for trump from the beginning, is that possible? >> it is. although, if you look at nikki haley's careful, delicate campaign launch, in which the closest she comes to criticizing trump is saying you need cognitive tests for people over 75. you know, she can claim it's aimed at biden. it shows that it's one thing thinking it makes sense to attack trump, and it is another thing doing it in practice.
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because when trump goes for you, there are no limits. there are no moral limits to what he will say. there's no truth-based limits to what he will say. he will eviscerate you and may ruin your future career ascomme. i think it is a tough step for people to take. lock at marco rubio. he was eviscerated by trump. him attacking trump didn't do him any good at all. he diminished by the minute. >> okay. u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce, haven't seen you for the while. great to have you on this morning. eddie glaude jr., thank you, as well, for joining us. still ahead, is the law closing in on donald trump? columnist david french joins us with what he says prosecutors should consider as three criminal probes of the former president come to a conclusion. plus, the uk appears to be lagging behind the rest of the
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developed world when it comes to economic growth. steve rattner went international with his next set of charts on what's dragging down britain's economy. he joins us next from london. we'll be right back. memory question, it's like you'll go, person, woman, man, camera, tv. ten minutes, 15, 20 minutes later, remember the first question? not the first but the tenth question? give us that again. can you do it again? you go, person, woman, man, camera, tv. they say, that's amazing. how did you do that? i do it because i have, like, a good memory, because i'm cognitively there. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools,
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welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot of the white house at 6:56 a.m. in the morning. tell you, as we look at the white house and talk about who may be running on the republican side, i'm going to talk to john heilemann in a little bit about why i don't think ron desantis is going to run this year. first, let's bring in "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, you're in london. i know to take in quite a few premier league football matches this weekend. i thank you for that. so let me ask you a question that we teased, that britain is lagging behind the rest of europe, the united states, with their economy. how much of that do you tie into other -- and do other economic analysts tie into brexit?
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>> a fair amount, joe, as i'll show you. i suggest you try doing the show from here. it's almost lunchtime. civilized to be doing the show at 12:00 instead of 7:00 in the morning. brexit certainly contributed to this significantly, as i'll show you on some of those charts. if you look back over the -- >> hold on one second, steve. you said the german economy, you mean the british economy, right? >> sorry, the british economy. thank you for helping me with that. i am in london. >> it's still too early for you. >> it's not -- >> even at noon, it's too early for you. >> a lot of travel this week, so i forget. if it is tuesday, it must be belgium. anyway, the uk had a tough run for a number of years as you can see on this chart, which shows what's happened since 2019 in the darker bars. the u.s. being the leader all the way over on the left, and then canada, france and so forth. you can see the uk on the right,
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which actually saw its economy shrink even before 2022 by a small amount and is now expected to shrink some more over the next year or so. there's a whole variety of factors behind that, but it's also had very high inflation, over 10% at the motion. really in pretty tough shape. >> so can you explain to me -- of course, we're fascinated by why our friends in britain are not doing well, but put the chart back up. why are the united states and canada doing so well? why are the north american economies doing so well? >> the u.s., first of all, you know, is the best house in what can sometimes be a tough neighborhood, sometimes be an okay neighborhood. our economy is still the most resilient, the most flexible and the most productive. but we also handled covid pretty well. we may have overstepped and created some inflation, but all the rescue plans we put in place, all the efforts we did to get covid behind us have contributed significantly to our growth.
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you see that now. we're still having very, very substantial growth in this country. so high, it is forcing the fed to raise interest rates by a pretty significant amount, as you know. >> yeah, you know, over the past couple decades, when people asked why the united states continues to do well, a lot of times, people talk about productivity. that's actually a problem in the uk, isn't it? >> that's really the nut of the problem. the uk has really had a productivity crisis, really going back to the great recession and what happened after that. you can see in the chart on the left that productivity was following a nice trend line until about 2007, and then it flat lined. it has stayed flat lining the whole time. why has that happened? a good part of that is investment. the chart on the right, you can see that investment in the uk also was growing until the financial crisis, then it took a big drop, then started growing again. as it, more or less, got back to almost where it was, a little past where it was in 2007, covid
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hit. brexit hit in 2016. you can see it flat lined and actually went down. if you look at that green and pink line on the right, those are estimates, actually, from the bank of england, what would have happened if investment had stayed on the trend it was on before the brexit vote, where would investment be today? depending upon what time period you look at, at least if it followed the pre-brexit trend, investment would be substantially higher than it turned out to be, really flat lining. investment leads to productivity. productivity leads to growth. growth leads to more incoms for people. that's what has been really tough here. >> what about the labor strike britain has been facing? >> so if you take a look at what's happened to wages, you can get a sense of what's happening to labor. on the left, again, are real wages. just like i showed you on investment, they were following a nice trend up. then they started flat lining
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around the time of the financial crisis. then, of course, brexit and so forth, everything we were just talking about. what has that done? it's led to real wages for the average british worker falling. the average british worker today is making about 4.3% less than they were making a year ago, a combination of no growth and inflation. that's led to a lot of labor unrest. you can see on the right, days lost to strikes hit 2.4 million last year, the highest it's been since back in the days of margaret thatcher. you have nurses on strike. you have transport workers going on strike. you have all kinds of labor action because people, very understandably, are being left behind. they feel it. they're responding by what is a very long tradition in britain of going on strike. >> but, steve, i guess let's welcome at this from 30,000 feet. i just don't understand how an economy that had been as vibrant
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as britain's from the mid '80s, starting with thatcher and then through blair, i'm curious, why did it hit a wall in 2008? of course, we had our problems in 2008 but we kept moving up, other countries kept moving up. why did britain hit a wall and crash so suddenly? >> i think there are a number of reasons, joe. first, britain is the second most important financial center in the world after new york. the financial community here in london is a very, very big part of the country's economy. so the financial crisis obviously dealt that a severe blow. then you had a variety of pretty bad policies. tax policies, regulatory policies. britain, in a sense, slipped back to where it was when margaret thatcher came in. a rigid, not flexible, not competitive economy with a set
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of bad policies. of course, then you had brexit. most recently, you've had this succession of prime ministers, a revoling door of prime ministers and confused policies relating to that. it's really been a whole series of factors that kind of have put it back to almost where it was, in a sense, when margaret thatcher arrived. >> i remember you were reporting for "the new york times" when margaret thatcher arrived. you said if not for thatcher, britain would have become france. it's fascinating now. we look at france and macron, who is retaining steadfast as he is trying to move retirement age from 62 to 64, which seems, of course, like a very rational thing if you want to make france more competitive and you want to help the fiscal situation there. but macron is facing, of course, strikes and a lot of political unrest and, yet, he is remaining
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steadfast. it's quite something to see, isn't it? >> yeah, macron is trying to be a version of thatcher. france has its own set of rigidities and, as you said, retirement age of 62, younger than the u.s., where we feel like we need to move that up a little to deal with our future fiscal challenges. and he's getting a lot of resistance, as you said. he is being very steadfast. europe as a whole still is a tough economy. all of the economies are tough. germany is growing slowly. italy is italy. they don't have the flexibility and competitiveness that we have here. britain, which had kind of looked like the u.s. for a while as you said, before the financial crisis, has kind of slipped back to be just another rigid, uncompetitive european economy. it does need some version of margaret thatcher to come back and do what she did. >> needs a kickstart, that's for
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sure. steve rattner, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, steve. >> see you very soon. of course, by the way, that retirement age of 62 in france is the lowest in the industrialized west. i august -- suspect in the end they'll push it up. >> steve is getting his bearings as an economic correspondent for us. >> steve is auditioning for the new opening for economic correspondent for good morning sheffield. he's got the job. >> is he trying to leave us? >> we have to tell him in the future, if he is going to do the show later in london, he's got to skip the two martini lunch. >> i know. >> with his business talking about germany. >> it's okay. >> that's a prerequisite. if you're doing british morning television, you have the two
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martinis before lunch. good morning, lancaster is another prerequisite. >> 50 over 50. >> incredible announcement yesterday, mika. >> i know. >> with the first lady of ukraine connecting. >> so excited. >> then you have hillary, of course, and gloria steinem, billie jean king, ayesha curry. >> jessica alba. >> doing it by memory. >> i'm so excitexcited. this event has really come together. the 50 over 50 list, when it started last year, we had 10,000 submissions, including women trying to lie up about their age. it went international. asia, middle east and africa. this is our second annual 30/50 summit, and the lineup is simply remarkable. >> yeah. all right. >> it is. look at hillary clinton, gloria
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steinem, billie jean king, right there, these were the founders of the modern feminist movement, really. >> mm-hmm. >> on the national scale in a massive way as public figures. there were many women who went before them, but at least in our time, in the early '70s, mid '70s and late '70s, into the '80s, '90s and now, their impact has been absolutely remarkable. we look forward to that. >> to have them share the stage in abu dhabi with olena zelenska and others, it'll be a powerful show of women lifting up other women on a global level. we'll have so many women from the 50 over 50 list. ceos, founders, creators, so many women who have found their greatest impact, made their most money, paid it forward in the most significant way well after the age of 50, in their 60s,
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70s, 80s and 90s. this list is powerful. what we tapped into is a powerful demographic that is not just here in the state, it's global. this event will shine a light on that. >> it certainly is global. >> let's get to -- >> you look here in the states. you have the person that signs our dollar bills, you know. >> exactly. women in finance, my god, globally. >> women in finance here, globally, everywhere. it's really going to be incredible. >> yup. >> john heilemann, before we brought on steve rattner, our financial correspondent in london, i teased the fact that i was going to pass a theory by you about ron desantis. >> sure. >> why in the world would it make sense for ron desantis to run in 2024 if donald trump is running? here, you have a guy who is raising hundreds of millions of dollars. he's got the stage in his state that he completely dominates. he won by a landslide in 2022
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because the democrats didn't challenge him. he now has a run of the entire state top to bottom. he could serve his second term, keep holding his press conferences, keep raising money, keep upping his game, let donald trump run in '24 and lose yet again, and then joe biden leaves and the '28 election -- i'm just speculating if people are advising him. why don't you let trump lose again, then you get out after your second term as florida governor and you run with hundreds of millions of dollars in the account and a clear field. no one would run against that ron desantis if he could somehow keep that momentum up. some people around him have to be asking, why would you run into a buzzsaw named donald trump when you could have the field to yourself four years from now, after he lost again?
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>> well, i think if governor desantis is thinking about that, he should probably have a conversation with hillary clinton and barack obama in private. you know, the reality in presidential politics, it is an axiom and one that is true. timing is everything. the argument for desantis to run right now is, it goes right to the one thing you said in the middle of that theory, joe, which is, you know, if he can keep the momentum going. right now, ron desantis is at what may be the peak of his popularity, maybe the peak of his power. a moment comes along, i mentioned obama and hillary because she thought about getting in in 2004. for the rest of her life, she will regret that, at a moment when the democratic party had howard dean on fast track to be the nominee, she decided not to run. decided not to get in. in the end, she says, oh, it's not my time. 2008 will be my time. then barack obama turned up in 2008 and turned out not to be her time. she was more popular in the democratic party in 2004 than any time, including even in
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2016. her popularity was at its peak, and she passed it up. obama in 2008, some people said it was too early, don't do it. obama said, you know, i'm never going to have a better moment than this. it can only get worse for me. this is my time. i think, you know, for desantis, the argument would be, when will i have a clearer -- there is never a clear shot. someone is always going to be in the way. right now, there are a lot of republicans urging him, who think he is the guy who can rid the party of donald trump. if he were to do that, you know, imagine the degree of unanimity in the party once he got past trump. if he beat him in a primary, the degree of power he'd have headed into a general election, a lot of people say the contrast between him and biden in terms of age would be beneficial to desantis. i think, you know, the argument for running now is that you can't game these things out too much. when you're hot, you're hot and you have to go. that's the thing that will probably drive him into the race, and it may turn out to be the right move. >> well, now let me go back to
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what you said and look at what you said near the end of your argument. the important sentence is if he can beat donald trump. >> totally. >> i see no evidence that either he or anybody else in the republican party the beat donald trump. to talk more about this, let's bring in former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst and, of course, a proud chiefs fan who i hope appreciates my chiefs tie i'm wearing today, claire mccaskill is with us. also, the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and head of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. and "new york times" opinion columnist, sounds good, david french. mitt romney issued a bit of a warning to fellow republicans about donald trump. take a look. >> i think president trump is by far the most likely to become our nominee.
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but i think if there's an alternative to that, it would be only realist if it narrows down to a two-person race at some point. i won't be supporting president trump. >> what you could do to stop him? >> i'mowly senator from utah. >> claire, what is past is prologue. this sounds identical to 2016, the conversations people were having in 2016. january, february, march of that year. >> exactly. and i have to say, there were two things -- well, there were several things that were notable about nikki haley getting in the race. one that was notable, that she should worry about, is trump said nothing, other than good luck. that means, one, he's glad she's in. two, he's not afraid of her. the other thing that was interesting is she entered the
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race like a conventional politician, with poll-tested political phrases. there was no red meat. she couldn't even make up her mind, whether she was for or against a federal abortion ban. i think her getting in is going to signal to others, okay, well, if she can do this, we can, too. i do think you're going to end up with snow white and the seven dwarves. the question is, will one of those dwarves, dopey, rise to the occasion? that'd probably be dopey desantis that would rise to the occasion and end up making it a two-person battle after a couple of the early primaries. that remains to be seen. >> david french, what do you think? >> i think it is already trump and desantis in the field. >> right. >> so the question is, is somebody from the field going to rise up? that's the big question for me to challenge the trump and desantis duo right now. i think somebody is going to have a moment. will they actually arise out of
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the field? you know, it remains to be seen. i'm not willing to crown desantis yet as the alternative, but it is already trump and desantis, by and large. >> it's so early. you've seen a lot of these primaries, rev. is ron desantis just peaking too early? it seems like he's so overhyped, how can he ever meet the expectations that have been set out for him by so many voters but also the donor class? >> on one hand, you always see the early frontrunner fall. i think he has to worry about that. also, again, i ran in the 2004 primaries. i've not seen him prove himself on the big stage. when the lights go on, it's different than "the miami herald" and "tallahassee" newspapers. i don't know if he can handle the scrutiny under pressure. and a fight with trump.
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trump, who will be a bad knuckle fight, he's never been in a big fight, especially on the large stage. on the other side of that, where i have to deal with my lately new habit of agreeing with john over there, which i hate. >> goodness. >> he can't beat trump, he can't beat biden. if he cannot beat trump and overcome whatever that is that's going to be bloody, he will not be ready for the democrats in november. so if i were the republicans, i'd say, get in and prove your metal. otherwise, in november, you will not be the one that can bring us across the goal line. >> david, in your recent op-ed entitled "the law is closing in on trump," you write, in part, quote, former presidents should be subject to prosecution. this position doesn't endanger our system of government, it protects and applies a fundamental american legal principle. we are all equal in the eyes of the law. a refusal to prosecute trump
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because of a fear of mob violence or civil unrest would grant trump the equivalent of a heckler's veto. presidents cannot pardon state crimes. even if president biden could pardon trump, he should not. the evidence clearly indicates that trump committed a crime. he should face a jury, and if the jury convicts, he should go to prison. did i read that right? >> yes. >> okay, just making sure. so, look, i'm waiting and wondering what's going to happen here because there is this frustration among people who love the constitution and this country and this democracy, that there is no consequence for this former president. >> well, you know, i share the frustration of how long it is taking to investigate some events that were not terriby complex. but we absolutely have a looming
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wall in front of us, a deadline in front of us. the deadline is voting is going to start pretty soon, and there's going to have to be final decisions made within the next few months on the latest, on the outset. >> right. you said if the evidence clearly indicates. >> if the evidence -- and we have not seen all the evidence. >> we haven't. >> it's a lot of speculation based on news reports. one of the things i think is very important is that some of these claims are stronger than others. >> yes. >> it's not just that, okay, there's three main criminal streams. one of them, i think, is weaker than the other two, and that's the manhattan d.a. looking into the stormy daniels situation. >> wow, that one, okay. john heilemann, go ahead. >> i want to take this to joe, because, to me, there is a question. i agree with everything david said. i think there's probably unanimity that former presidents, if they're guilty of crimes should be prosecuted. if we take the position that you can't prosecute the sitting
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president, which some disagree, you can't take that and say that you can't prosecute a former president because then they would be above the law. the best thing that ever happened to donald trump in the year 2022, joe, was when the fbi went down and did the search at mar-a-lago. the whole party, at a moment when trump's influence seemed to be waning, his power seemed to be waning, the gold watch strategy, hey, tell him he made america great again and send him to the old folk's home, that was the thought in the republican party. then the fbi went down there. the whole party rose up and rallied around trump. i ask you this, what do you think -- and i know your view is no one can beat trump anyway, or it is likely he is the 600-pound gorilla in the field -- but is it not in trump's political interest to have what david suggested? an indictment of donald trump, a trial that would likely not take place before 2024, puts him in the position where he's once again the martyr.
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he's once again putting on the, guys, they're coming to get me once again, the law enforcement, liberals, democrats, would that not enhance his standing in the republican party opposed to diminish it? >> if you look what's happened in israel with netanyahu, you can face legal peril and still get elected. i think it is different here. david, i'm curious about what you think. because republicans have already quietly come to the conclusion that this guy cost us in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022. we're not going to let him cost us an election again in 2024. so, actually, i agree, mar-a-lago helped donald trump for about 15 minutes, but i suspect, if you look at polls, his numbers since 2020, i think
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they've been slowly on the decline. desantis is closer now to him in a lot of these polls than he was before mar-a-lago. you know, my gut is that, actually, the worst thing that could have happened to donald trump is when the fbi went down to mar-a-lago. because of all of these cases, david, that you and i could talk about, about where is an indictment the likeliest? are they going to be able to get him on january 6th? are they going to be able to get him in georgia? the one thing that you and i can read newspapers and know is they most likely already have him and his lawyers on obstruction in the documents case because they lied to the fbi and they lied to the department of justice about whether they still had documents. >> you know, you raise a great point about the obstruction issue. there's no question about that. you know, there are two prongs when it comes to the mar-a-lago
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incident. one is holding the documents themselves. that one is complicated by the fact that a lot of people have been holding on to documents. then there's the other aspect, which is the obstruction aspect. the facts there seem pretty unique. they seem quite different from the mike pence situation. they seem quite different from the biden situation, even though there's a lot of hazy parts of that. we'll see. that obstruction piece is substantially different. we know, absolutely, that jack smith is looking at it. they're seeking testimony from lawyers. so he absolutely has his eyes on that. >> all right. we'll come back to this. some news now on senator john fetterman of pennsylvania, who is receiving treatment for clinical depression at walter reid national military medical center. the senator checked himself into the hospital wednesday night. writing in a statement, while john experienced depression off
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and on throughout his life, it only became severe in recent weeks. fetterman suffered a stroke last year while campaigning in a highly competitive senate race. he was hospitalized last week after he felt lightheaded, but his staff says tests ruled out another stroke. fetterman's wife posted on twitter after what he's been through in the past year, there's probably no one who wanted to talk about his own health less than john. i'm so proud of him for asking for help and getting the care he needs. several senators also posted messages online supporting him. joining us now, nbc news correspondent dasha burns. dasha covered the 2022 senate race in pennsylvania between fetterman and dr. oz. what more do we know about his condition and how long he will be in the hospital? >> reporter: mika, first, i have to say, having covered fetterman now for over a year, i know him.
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i know his family. i got to know his staff during this process. they're all incredibly close. it's been really difficult to watch them go through this, to continue to go through this. you know, anyone who has ever experienced severe depression, myself included, by the way, knows how important it is to go and seek help but also how incredibly hard it is to do that, especially when you're in the public eye like this. so i'm just glad he is where he needs to be and is getting the care he needs. but you ask some important questions about the latest and about the timeline here. i did speak to a close senior aide of his last night, and he said that we're looking at not days but also notikely weeks th fetterman will be in inpatient care. likely few weeks he'll be in
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inpatient care for clinical depression, according to this aide. the doctors are trying different medications. it'll take some time to ramp up the dosages. he'll need time for observation and any adjustments that he needs. the aide also tells me that both the staff and fetterman himself were surprised by the severity of the depression, by this onset. you know, there was a feeling internally, according to the aide, that after this hard-fought victory after the midterms, he'd have some time to rest, to recover before being sworn in. but, you know, depression just doesn't follow that kind of timeline. the aide says for those around him, it's been sort of difficult to distinguish the symptoms of the stroke from symptoms of depression, saying that sometimes, you know, it is hard to know if he's not hearing you or if he is just sort of being crippled by depression and social anxiety.
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so there is a sense of relief on the team that they're now able to sort of address this depression issue that has been so complicated in the context of the stroke and everything else that has been going on with the senator. so you mentioned the hospital visit last week. i was told by the aide that the doctors there recommended that he seek outpatient care for mental health. then on monday, he saw dr. moynihan, who told him that he needs inpatient care, that this is severe enough that he should take some time to take care of himself. checked himself in. now, like i said, we're looking at likely a few weeks. just a little more context that he told me based on some of those conversations, just described the challenges with adjusting to this new reality post stroke. you know, we saw that even in our interview back in october. fetterman telling us that everything had changed after the stroke.
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conversations with his family, with his staff, you can imagine how difficult that can be. >> unbelievable. nbc's dasha burns, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. claire, that last point is something that jumped out at me, and annie carney, who has written great articles on senator fetterman and the challenges he's faced, wrote an article last week, there was a line that really stood out to me. that was what dasha just pointed out, that he was having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that some of his limitations, whether they were physical or whether they were mental, would be permanent. it was something very difficult for him to put his arms around. you couple that with the fact that this guy has, you know, been in control, sort of had this image of being a tough guy and being in control his entire
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life, something that annie also brought up in the article yesterday. then add on top of that just the adjustment to going to congress. i know for a little, young congressman like me, i mean, you know, it was -- there were adjustments. you went in as a united states senator, there's a lot coming at you very quickly. for all this to be happening while he is struggling with these challenges that many of us can't even imagine, depression seems like a natural consequence of all of that. >> you know, john fetterman is doing america a tremendous favor. set aside the pain that he and his family are in, and look at the fact that he is, in the most public way, declaring to the world that mental health is not
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unlike a broken leg or cancer or a heartclearly wants to be what stroke will not let him be. it's the collision of those two things, i'm imagining, and the pace of the u.s. senate that is really getting him in a mental state that he can't function. i think it is important to compare and contrast what my dear, dear friend and mentor, tom eagleton, went through. tom eagleton had severe depression, and he, too, sought treatment, but in secret, behind the door. it all came to the forefront when he was selected to be vice president. it was so difficult for tom eagleton to grapple with the way he was perceived before that became public and after that became public. so this is a moment where fetterman, john fetterman, senator fetterman is saying to the world, "hey, everybody,
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mental health is real. you can get help. i'm going to show you how it's done." i know all of us are rooting for him. >> you know, joe, i'll say something else about this, which is, you know, when fetterman had his stroke, a lot of people wondered how he would -- the effects would be on hispolitics in the senate rate. i think it was an advantage. in the final stretch of the race, you know, what happened to him was not that unusual. many people in pennsylvania had strokes or people in their families had strokes or they had other health care challenges. they made it a humanizing element that connected him to the electorate in pennsylvania, and it kind of enhanced the view that people have of fetterman. he is an ordinary guy. he is in the hoodie. he wears the shorts. this is not your traditional politician. he is one of us, right? i would say that this also -- he
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has six years to go before he has to run for re-election. it is brave of him to be doing what he is doing. it is hard to talk about your depression. he is going through all these difficulties. but, again, how many american families have someone who suffered from depression? almost all of them. in the state of pennsylvania, there will be millions of people, or hundreds of thousands in pennsylvania, certainly millions across the country, who look at john fetterman and say, i've been depressed. i've had severe depression. my sister had, my mother had, my cousin had. this makes him -- it is another element of making him more relatable, more accessible, making him seem more, again, like one of us. the one thing you and i both know is that there is no more powerful thing in politics than one of us. one of us is a powerful thing. >> right. >> if he -- john has a long time to go. he comes out the other side of this, he is going to be potentially of enhanced political stature, not diminished, on the other side. >> well, and as claire said, i
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mean, the difference between the reaction he'll probably face and the reaction that tom eagleton faced in '72 could not be more different. >> sure. >> because there are so many of us who have loved ones, i think most people are close to those who have suffered from depression. we understand the extraordinary courage it takes, sometimes just to get through the day. sometimes just to put one foot in front of the other, to get into a shower, to get out of a shower, to get ready for work, to go to your car, to open the door. when you talk to people with severe depression, they tell you that every small thing that they do is a battle just to take one, small step forward, and to keep moving. to get to their school or get to their job and get through the day. it is heroic. there are millions and millions
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of people out there that are suffering from depression, from severe depression, and what they do every day is nothing short of heroic. so they look right now to a united states senator who is talking about this for the entire world. i have no doubt that it will be -- i don't know how it'll help him politically. i don't think he gives a damn how it'll help him politically. i do know it'll help millions of americans out there, though, to see a senator going to seek help when he faces severe depression. i think it is going to make a big difference. i will say, too, this is a lesson for politicians. let me say for one second. we had dasha burns on earlier, who got just raked over the coals on social media for actually reporting on john fetterman's condition when he was a candidate. the fetterman campaign pushed back hard.
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other people close to him pushed back hard. but an amazing thing happened after that, david french. john fetterman started embracing the challenges that were confronting him. some of the most powerful advertisements i've ever seen, political ads i've ever seen, came from the fetterman camp. because we always see these politicians in the coat and tie, kind of like this, standing in front of a labor audience or standing in front of an audience in a rural town in post industrial pennsylvania or michigan or wisconsin. they don't relate. but you look at fetterman. you looked at that audience in some of the ads that he was talking to, talking about his struggle, and you thought, just as he said, my god, he's one of us. that's what the crowd had to be thinking. now, he continues his journey, a painful journey, and i suspect
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most of his constituents will have nothing but praise and also thanks for him doing this publicly. >> well, you know, i think doing this publicly was important on a number of levels. number one, you're destigmatizing receiving treatment. number two, you're also being transparent that something is going on. that's important for politicians, as well. the question for me is, we want him to get better. we want him to get better. i think that's just the focus. i don't know about what the future holds for him politically, but it is quite clear he suffered a severe stroke. it would be incredibly understandable that you're dealing with depression after something like that, where you're questioning, you know -- it is a traumatic event on every level, so i think the total focus is, is he going to get better? he needs to get better. then talk about the political future from there. >> i absolutely agree.
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the first concern must be his health and whether he gets better. but the politics of it is something you have to deal with because he is a sitting senator. >> yeah. >> he is a very obvious rising star in the democratic party, depending on how this works out. but i have to agree, that people relate to people that rise up but also shows the same vulnerabilities that they've either faced themselves or are familiar with. politically, i think this doesn't hurt him. the fact that he himself and his staff says he, himself, went forward and admitted depression and wants to deal with it, i think he can come out at the other end of this, given if all goes well with his health, as a hero, as somebody that stood up and did what i wish i would have done or my aunt would have done or i want to do if i'm faced with that. i think that, joe, at the end of the day, the politics of it may work for him. i just hope that the health side of it, that he gets where he
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needs to be. >> of course, that's what we'll be keeping the senator in our prayers and his family in our prayers during just an extraordinarily difficult time for him and for the millions of others who battle depression every day. "new york times" opinion columnist david french, thank you so much for being with us. it is great to see you again. go big blue. >> thank you, joe. still ahead on "morning joe," senator sherrod brown of ohio is calling on governor mike dewine to declare a disaster following the toxic train derailment in the state that happened two weeks ago. it seems to keep getting worse. the senator joins us next. plus, we're breaking down what we did and did not learn from the partial release of the fulton county special grand jury report. also ahead, the family of award-winning actor bruce willis gives everybody an update on his health after announcing he has
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how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou frustrations are understandably mounting as ohio residents keep demanding transparency following that train derailment and toxic chemical spill in east palestine. the head of the epa, michael regan, visited the area yesterday and reaffirmed that tests there show no air quality issues. he also promised the biden administration will, quote, get to the bottom of the train derailment and hold the rail operator, norfolk southern, accountable. we'll hear more fromregan about the situation in ohio when he joins us the top of the ohio. first, we're joined by senator sherrod brown of ohio, who also visited east palestine. thanks for coming on. >> of course. >> after 9/11 ground zero, and
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learned as a lawyer looking at toxic spills, the impact, they're usually felt for years. should the government be doing more? should the state government be doing more? should the federal government be doing more here? >> well, yes, yes and yes. one of the things that the epa administrator said, ohio, as the dewine administrator and also the mayor said the water is safe in the city drinking water system. individual wells not necessarily so much. they all need to be tested. but the administrator was careful to say, when you go back into your home, before you do, you need to get another test to make sure the water, the soil and the air are clean. and these tests are paid for by norfolk southern, who caused all of this. it is especially important that we -- people don't trust norfolk
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southern and don't always trust the government either, but we are making progress. this could go on for a long time. the cleanup is going to take months, i'm sure, visiting what seeing those gnarled train train cars, and cut train cars. norfolk southern don't invest nearly enough in rail and train safety as they should. they laid off thousands of workers. this company is going to be held responsible, and we're going to make sure of that. >> how in the world could anybody guarantee the people of east palestine that the water, the drinking water there, is safe? again, i mean, you study any toxic spill, again, sometimes the impact stays in the community for years, for decades, for generations. it seems like, i don't know, just looking at the pictures, reading the news accounts, you have to be worried for the safety of the people within
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miles of that spill. >> well, that's right. that's right, joe. i think you're going to see continued, ongoing testing. i mean, the testing of the water now says the water is drinkable. the administrator said he would -- in response to a hostile question, would you have your family drink this water, would you bathe small children in this wawater, he said yes, b it was conditioned on each time anybody moving back in, at least 500, 600 people have done that and had the tests. i think the tests will be ongoing. i don't think this is the only time they test. the epa will stay involved in this. the tests are beyond east palestine. if necessary, they will be throughout unity township. they'll go across the state line to darlington township and more toward salem in columbiana county. this is a huge thing, not a one-shot deal or temporary thing. this is going to be ongoing to
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make sure this water is safe and clean. i talked to the chief and mayor and also went to the home of ms. ferguson. the anguish in her voice, she had to move her disabled mother-in-law out of the house, too, and they're staying in a hotel. they can't afford theexpensive. even low-cost, i think she went to, but it's a lot. the anguish on her face as she sat with administrator regan, congressman johnson and me, it takes us double down. that's why we need to go there and talk to people who live there, who are struggling to get their lives, some semblance of their lives on track. >> senator, good morning. jonathan lemire. i want to pick up on that thread. what more can be done for some residents there? we've heard from them in recent days, who simply don't want to go back, who say, i can't risk
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this with my children or my parents or whoever it might be. i can't set foot there. what down done for them in the short term? also, what steps are put in place to track this potentially for not just months but years down the road, as, theoretically, the impact of this lingers and causes illness? >> we're working with those families that don't want to go back. that's not at all clear where they go, how they get their lives back on track. hard to sell their property, obviously, if they're doing that. in terms of longer term, that's still to be worked out. but i think that, in response to your question and joe's earlier assertion, it's important that testing continue on. again, it's really important that norfolk southern underwrite this, pay for every cent of this. when i was at the fire station, the fire station literally 30 feet in the backyard from the railroad tracks. if the train had derailed another 3, 4 minutes earlier, it
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would have blown up the fire station. do they move that fire station further from the tracks for the future? if they do, then norfolk southern pays for it. another word of warning, norfolk southern is offering 1,000 and $2,000 checks to people to help them get through this. i just warn norfolk southern, under no condition should you be asking anybody to sign away their legal rights for that $1,000 or $2,000 check, when you're dealing with people who are pretty desperate, that need that money to stay at a hotel, need the money to go back to their home after testing, all of those things. norfolk southern, as one rich federal reserve official told me once, watch me and let me know you're watching me. that's what we're doing. it is bipartisan. i spoke with congressman johnson. i spoke with him by phone last night when he called. we're watching. we are on this and going to continue to be. >> critically important that
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they continue to be watched. again, you look at this devastation. i will just say, again, my personal experiences, dealing with these sort of toxic spills and these sort of toxic sites, this impacts a community for years. >> decades. >> could impact a community for decades, for a generation. i had friends in pensacola, florida, who were dying of cancer and they couldn't figure out why. i'm not going to get into the specifics of it. let's just say, though, there was an oil company that had bee and the '60s and an impact for a generation. and i can't underline enough for the senator said. don't sign anything with these people.
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don't sign anything. and would i have my children drink the water? no! i wouldn't. remember, again, we have administrators trying to do the right thing. they say everything is safe like after 9/11. the firefighters. ground zero. because by some general standard it seems safe. it is not. one other thing i don't usually say and talk this way on the show with a guest here but the state of ohio is going more red year after year after year. the people of east palestine and the people impacted by this can thank god they have somebody to stand up for them and fight moneyed interests who want them to sign a check and get the hell
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out of their way. so, senator, thank you for coming on. any final words you would like to say to the people of east palestine? >> thank you for those words. there's another derailment yesterday in detroit. two earlier in ohio including sandusky. problematic if you live there. they haven't totally taken care of that one. this is ongoing and really important to stand up. >> yes, it is. epa administrator michael regan will be our guest at the top of the hour. next on "morning joe," from america's mayor to what some might call an american disgrace. we'll have a look at a new documentary exploring the rise and fall of rudy giuliani. plus "airmail" with a special dedicated to maga world.
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i think wallace is going to the breaking ball too much. this is a game situation. almost like bobby cox is shaking his head. if you get beat you want to be beat on the best pitch. not the third best pitch. >> 2-2. in the air to left field. back at the track! at the wall! we are tied! 6-6 here in the eighth. >> it was a slider.
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another slider from wallace. we talked about it before it happened. they are dancing in the streets of new york right now. it's a very quiet -- >> that is what tim mccarver did so well. some sad news to report this morning. world champion catcher and emmy winning broadcaster tim mccarver has died. he passed away yesterday due to heart failure in memphis, tennessee, where he was born and with his family. his baseball career spanned seven decades including 21 years playing in the majors and a two-time all-star and two-time world series champion. he switched to tv in 1980 going
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on to call a record 24 world series and 20 all-star games. he was inducted into the hall of fame. he was 81. what a legend. as mike barnacle said yesterday, a hall of fame player and broadcaster and guy. and claire mccaskill, he will be missed in st. louis. >> tim mccarver had -- i think there was an article yesterday that's so good about him. he had a generosity of spirit and he was the ultimate teacher of baseball. he made baseball so consumable by people who didn't know a fraction of what tim mccarver knew about the game. his sense of humor and story telling as a broadcaster. he was so close to bob gibson.
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he would say he would go out and try to tell him something about the pitches he was throwing and bob gibson said to him the only thing you know about pitches is you can't hit one. it's one of those many stories that he would tell that he could laugh at himself and by doing that he gay you permission to enjoy the game that few other broadcasters could do. it is with a heavy heart that viewing this broadcaster and don't dismiss the fact he was pretty damn good behind the plate. >> so self effacing a teacher of the gail. the legacy will be in the broadcasting booth.
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the voice of the post season for a long time. so appropriate the clip coming in predicting almost precisely what was going to happen with that huge home run for the yankees in '96. one making the round yesterday. the game seven of one world series. perhaps the greatest played. mccarver warned saying this is dangerous for the yankees. it was a tie game. because luis gonzalez was up. the cutter to lefties sometimes are blooped over. that is exactly what happened. ten seconds later. >> unbelievable. >> world series winning run for the diamondback. the love for the game came through effortlessly. >> i went back and read roger angel wrote a piece about mccarver maybe 20 minutes ago.
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the key to it is that angel honed in on the notion that the skill in the booth, how much he knew, incredibly smart about the game and his joy for the game came from the fact that he was a catcher and the view, always the smartest man on the field and can see the whole field. like a surrogate manager in the ga ims. he has transferred that to the booth and infused with joy and make everybody else smarter and more joyful. a combination to make him truly one of the greatest. >> two minutes past the top of the hour. we have rebecca here from "time"
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talking about the documentary when truth isn't truth, the rudy giuliani story. we'll talk about that in a moment. also, editor of "airmail" here to talk about the satirical issue on donald trump devoted to maga world. first, the top story. moments ago we spoke to senator brown saying the families affected by the train derailment have a long way to go before getting back the normal. he saw firsthand the impact of the toxic chemical fire that officials set off. another person on the front lines is epa administrator michael regan who joins us now. thank you for joining us. what is the latest of the safety
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of the air in the ohio town? >> thank you for having me. for those homes tested and given the clear to reenter the homes the air is safe based on the data. we have very high tech aerial equipment circle the community. we have a mobile van through the community. we have air monitoring. we have also been in the homes of nearly 500 people testing the indoor air quality. none come back with levels of concern. >> what about the water? what about effect else? fish are dying. animals are dying. people are scared. some people are told not to drink the water. what's the status of the water? >> we had a great partnership
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with the state of ohio. i have been in contact with the governor and discussed we need for people to trust state and local government. the state is leading the water testing efforts. they have tested the municipal water and private wells. for those who have had the testing if given the green light to drink the water they should have conferred in that data. everyone hasn't had the water tested. the governor indicated if the water is not tested reach out to the state and remain on bottled water until you do so. those that gotten the air and water test, the science is sound and we really need for the local community to trust their state and local government if they had the test. >> administrator regan, al sharpton, is there any early consideration on how to deal
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with more environmental safety so that when we see situations like this occur, i believe two other points in the country with derailments. not as bad as this. that we do not have the environmental concerns because we have safeguards in in terms of what can and cannot be possible to get into the atmosphere? >> thank you for the question. yes. i don't want to get ahead of the invest by the ntsb and d.o.t. but there is an ongoing investigation and conversations with congress already about safety concerns and railway regulations. those conversations are under way. we owe it to the community to effectively communicate and monitor and analyze the situation to give them
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confidence. >> all right. we'd love to have you back as the story progresses. i think people are scared and concerned about living in that town and we would love to get up dates on what is happening there so please come back. >> i will. i want to say we will be there until this job is done. we will hole norfolk southern accountable. epa will use the full authority. we are with the people. we want the community to know that. >> appreciate those words. all right. thank you for being on this morning. a few moments better crystallize -- fewer moments better crystallize the moments of donald trump than a phrase uttered by rudy giuliani when told the word quote truth isn't truth. that's part of a new documentary series that will air on msnbc beginning this sunday night at
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10:00 p.m. eastern. here's a look. >> faith and patriotism are pretty much one and the same. this is an identity that was forged in the 1950s. it was seen as an anchor for social life, family life, political life. all continues jruedy was very much cut from that cloth and made no bones about it. >> i will make white people feel safe here. they believe in one white man is the boss. >> i want to introduce rudy giuliani. maybe i'll ask him to say a few words. >> we can have a very, very close working relationship. >> there is no appeasing people like rudy and trump. there are people whose core value is white supremacy. >> "when truth isn't truth" will
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be available for streaming on peacock. the director is executive producer at "time." tell us more about it and why this is an important topic to focus on jruedy's rise and fall has to a lot to do with what is going on with disinformation during this time especially post-trump administration. what was the core focus to taking a look at america's mayor and what happened to him? >> thank you for having me on. i think that i wanted to really unpack this idea of what happened to america's mayor because the rudy story is long and people might have forgotten pre- 9/11 rudy and the similarities between early rudy and right now are eerily
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similar. we looked at a long and deep history of this smoke and mirrors story and wanted to tell it for what it was. >> joe? >> yeah. i'm just curious. it's so interesting that my view of rudy has always been regarding trump he is another in a long line of naked opportunists. i talked to him offline saying the things about trump that other people were saying about trump. he can never be president, talking about how the guy you couldn't negotiate with him in good faith. everybody else i negotiated with you give something, they give you something. the city and the developer wins. with trump it is a zero sum game. then the front of the line hugging donald trump.
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it is more opportunism. >> yeah. jimmy breslin has a great line and a favorite of the documentary that rudy is a dictator looking for a balcony. there's no lack of evidence of ambition and the willingness to push any buttons. we look at the police riot which is widely hidden from history and january 6, the big lie, hunter biden, examples of this blind ambition that rudy really has. >> yeah. reverend al, what a way to describe him and donald trump who as we have known far long time is far more comfortable around democrats, contributed to democrats and kamala harris even in 2014. a dictator in search of a
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balcony. he -- >> in my conversations with rebecca the element that people don't understand is that rudy and trump, i believe that rudy helped to set a lot of the tone that trump used nationally in new york, they were so cynical to use race and division to help their careers more than they were doing it because they -- in the gut believed it. i believe they believed jruedy when he was the head of southern district to meet with me and black leaders. he came to a kid's funeral killed in a racial killing. when david dinkens he became these blacks can't run the city.
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what rebecca referred to the riot. the keynote speaker was rudy giuliani. he used that and i think donald trump and, rebecca, i would be interested to hear your reaction why donald trump that grew up with rudy giuliani that used race and division and us against them as a political model took it national. i think that's where he was apprenticed. >> absolutely. i i'm glad you brought up david dinkens. in the film the election was very indicative of what to see in trump's election in the recent years and the rudy story is perception. >> exactly. >> isn't it though as we have charted on the documentary his
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response to september 11'd is an exception than the rule. he was deemed at america's mayor. some new yorkers can't stand him and donald trump but are grateful when the nation was reeling. where did you find that that came from? it seems so discordant from the rest of the career. >> i would never want to take away from him what he gave new yorkers right after 9/11 and the country. he was on the cover of "time" in 2001 as the person of the year but i think that what he has become and what he was before that has been consistent and what we set out to prove in the documentary is there's mistakes made at 9/11 that we with respect as a country willing to talk about because we had a universal enemy at that point. >> yep. >> when we live in this political state we go after the
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other state but in that time we with respect because we had this other enemy. we wanted to look so much deeper at the things that we view and think we know and as a film maker it is my job and goal to go deeper and unpack these things. >> very cool. >> joe, i wonder and everyone around the table, that moment and what it was in that moment. the parallel between that moment and the andrew cuomo moment in early covid is striking. the autocratic tendencys. the bullying. a lot of things that republicans find unpleasant of them but in that moment when people needed clarity, leadership, someone was in charge and strong and clear. willing to push everything aside
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and people were like andrew cuomo, he is just doing great in contrast to donald trump. they benefited from a moment when people are willing to say we don't care except for clarity epa strength and interesting to me that they are both new york stories tells you about the political culture of this state. >> absolutely. >> not just the state. let's put it in context. people remember george w. bush on top of the pile of debris. >> sure. >> be the bull horn and seemed to take control of the crisis and understand the grasp of the crisis but between 9/11 when the planes first went in to the towers and that moment when bush finally found his voice fact is rudy giuliani was the person
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americans were looking to because he was the only guy who seemed to like know what he was talking about. he was the only guy. nothing autocratic of what rudy giuliani was doing. monitoring ground zero. going to the funerals of firefighters and police officers. i have got to say these documentaries are fascinating an enthis story so fascinating to me in part because you can look at him for that week and say, you know what? giuliani filled the role. he wasn't following the practice of hitler. he was following churchill and crime is a never ending debate. i understand that.
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but the difference between crime in new york city in 1991 and 1995, 1996, a massive change. just a massive change. quality of life in new york city. isn't this what makes rudy giuliani's story so fascinating? is that you can look back at the moments and say you know what? this is a guy who whether it was the week after 9/11 or whether it was in new york, i hate to go on and on but of course i will. i hate to -- but there's in story, rebecca, i always tell about giuliani that it was i think '97. i was flying up to new york city from washington. i happen to be next to a biggest
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democratic fund-raiser on long island and tearing my ear off. you right wing republicans. you are what's wrong with america. i said yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. as we were landing, i said there's a mayoral election coming up. i guess you will vote for mark green? she said i will vote for giuliani. we can go to restaurants without being assaulted. went on and on and on. i was fascinated about it. that's what makes the giuliani story so fascinating is that guy that did some things right ended up doing things just so horribly wrong. >> you're absolutely right. giuliani did a lot of things right and wrong. he is a multidimensional
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character. we could have made a seven-part series. reverend al, what you said in the documentary is he is an intentional demagogue and absolutely true. >> i think the problem and the tragedy of both rudy giuliani and donald trump is their narcissism. it was about them. even when they did the right thing they did it for the wrong reasons. there's a parent in the bible, joe and i talk biblical a lot. he that findeth himself will lose himself. at the height of 9/11 where he had become an admired man all over the world he thought 9/11 rose to him rather than him rising to that moment. same thing happened to donald
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trump. you have to be about something more than yourself. it is not about us. they thought it was about them. >> talking about the bible it is simple. i'm not being mocking here. it is about servant leadership. is it for yourself or the people? from the very start it was all about rudy. >> you can catch the first episode of "when truth isn't truth" at 10:00 p.m. eastern this sunday on msnbc. and streaming on peacock. rebecca, thank you so much let's bring in graden carter, the former long time editor in chief of "vanity fair" and now at "airmail" with an
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issue to maga world. the special issue just released this morning. joe, you have the first question. >> of course i do. my god. from heilman. it is practically going back to our childhood with spy magazine when you called donald trump a short fingered bulgarian. tell us about it. >> no. i woke up -- it is wonderful to be here. i listen to you guys every morning. now i'm talking to you. a wonder of technology. i woke up in december and said magazine? i thought, capital m-a-g-a. there was nothing. i called bruce andy who's an old spy magazine hand and we brought half a dozen old spy writers who
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followed trump in his career back and this is the result. >> it is heilman. with magazine, the word, those who were in that business for a long time, you are a great magazine maker of the age and i wonder what you make of living in a world where email, a thing like "airmail" is to communicate and the era of magazines seems to be over. i'm not a person to get nostalgic often but it is hard to not feel as though the magazine era are dead and replaced with what you are doing now. >> the magazine is about 250 years old. if the internet existed at the
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time of the first magazine i don't think they would have ever printed anything. magazines are a tough business. you ship them around the world. wait to see if they sell. it takes months. it is a very difficult, complicated process and the internet made it seamless. if it was over when we started "spy" 35 years ago we never would have printed the magazine. you see them everywhere. halfway between magazines and books. >> i'll go through the pages with you and you can narrate them. one called princess diary. >> this is like a diary from ivanka down in miami beach.
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that's it. i'm going to save it for the readers. >> my house is a very, very nice house where i really live. >> george santos is a real gift. he is probably complaining about this to his girlfriend madonna right now. who knows? he is special. >> i love this next one. nonwoke wellness, the best you is yet to come. by kimberly guilfoyle. show a little sleeve. style for the maga man by jim jordan. >> he is special, too. the whole thing is done anybody from the trump world would think this is fine and anybody from the msnbc world find it somewhat
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funny. >> you have known and tangled with donald trump for a very long time. what do you think? he has launched the new presidential campaign. not off to a sparkling start and questions whether he will follow through. what do you see? what do you think the next chapter is for donald trump? >> i've known him for 40 years. i spent three weeks with him. i never thought he would become president. i think that he is -- the sort of legal problems he gets in a day would hobble us for a lifetime but to him it's oxygen in a way. i don't think it slows him down but i do think that the wagons are -- things are closer and him. there's too much out there that something is going to catch him. i don't think he'll be in jail but he'll find up disgraced at
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the end as he should be. >> as you know i have unapologetically been a massive fan of yours for a long time and not of newsletters because it is like everything else across the phone. you have captured the aesthetic that you at "vanity fair" and other magazines that you read. just a legend at this work. i'm curious. how did you manage to put together "airmail"? what was the guiding light and the vision? why do you think it's working so well? >> i was in france. i went to france for about two and a half years and i don't think the stories made it to
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american shores. i had the idea for a while. i worked with a designer named angela panici and a brilliant engineer and we sort of put it together over long distance and supposed to be like the weekend edition of a nonexistent international newspaper. arts and humor. it looks really beautiful and home delivery every saturday morning. >> it does look beautiful. i talked to you before about this. i will do it again on tv here. >> okay. >> would love to have a weekly airmail segment here. >> i like this. >> yeah. let's -- i talked to you about it a year and a half. you are about as good as following up on things as i am.
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i will shame you here. >> he will never call you back. >> maybe every friday because it comes out on saturday. >> perfect. >> am-joe. airmail joe. get it? a pun. in a way. a play on words. >> heilemann. >> a quick one for you. elon musk is a fan of graden carter, too. >> yeah. no. i was flattered. he sent out a tweet. but he was wrong. >> we'll get the thing set up. airmail's new satirical issue devoted to maga world this
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morning. thank you. so good to see you. >> thank you. nice to see you. still ahead on "morning joe," the guardrails of democracy holing firm. there's no widespread evidence of voter fraud and in arizona an appeals court throws out kari lake's election challenge after she claimed the results were tainted. we'll breaking down both stories. god! heilemann, slamming everything around here. ahead on "morning joe." throwing stuff around! be quiet for this. before break, willie has a huge show for "sunday today. "sitting down with actor austin butler who played elvis and now nominated for an oscar.
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it is a fascinating and emotional conversation about his late friend lisa marie presley. check out the sunday sitdown with austin butler. i told him he would be a big star. he didn't believe me. it is willie geist on sunday morning. we'll be right back. research shows people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. did you know that liberty mutual custo— ♪ liberty mutual. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ custom home insurance created for you all. ♪ ♪ now the song is done ♪ ♪ back to living in your wall. ♪ they're just gonna live in there? ♪ yes. ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you love closing a deal. but hate managing your business from afar. you need to hire.
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i had no idea how much i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ appeals court yesterday rejected failed arizona gubernatorial candidate kari lake's appeal. they said lake did not provide enough evidence to support the claims that the election results were tainted by illegal votes and misconduct. the chief judge wrote in part that the evidence out mattly supports the court's conclusion that voters were able to cast
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the ballots, votes were counted correctly and no other basis justifies setting aside the results. the lawyers have been sanctioned by a federal judge over an election related lawsuit. where are the lawyers coming from that trump is getting and kari lake? who are these people? who are these people? they get them off the side of the road? >> who are these men? who are these men she asked. >> and women. >> and women. and women. but you know, elise, we can actually just step back for a second here and look at all the times we asked, are some people just above the law? can lawyers just go in front of courts and lie? is there no recourse?
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is there no justice? we are finding now time and time again -- look at the top two stories. a grand jury found what was found time and time again by republican appointed judges in georgia, republican governor in georgia, republican secretary of state in georgia, republican elected officials in georgia. had a three-judge panel in arizona find what republicans in mare copa have found and republican officials found time and time again. there was no election fraud. not only are the people facing justice in court and donald trump may face justice in georgia but even their lawyers are being held accountable for going in front of judges and just lying. and again, this is something -- i guess as a lawyer it is
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strange. as a politician i understand everything is on the table. but the lawyer in me is deeply 0 fepded by the arguments that the people made in front of judges. how can rudy giuliani get away with that? how can the other lawyers get away -- i would have been disbarred the first day. chuck would have been disbarred as a lawyer trying to -- how do they get away with it? they're not getting away with this. >> i think of the ordinary citizen petrified of a traffic ticket and doesn't get away with it. seemed like the lawyers and former government officials gotten away with so much. looks like in georgia they held the line well and will reflect well for the political fortunes down the road potentially especially looking at governor
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brian kemp. you have all of these top officials like donald trump, is he ever going to face consequences? giuliani consequences. >> people are in jail. >> the people -- >> charged with seditious conspiracy. >> face consequences. when will donald trump face consequences? >> that is my question for professor eddie. is it good they come back and find an infraction against them and judges keep saying no, no, no? or, is it good because judges keep saying no? or is it bad they keep coming back? they keep coming back. kari lake, donald trump. when will they ever go away and realize they lost and probably broke the law? >> it is a good thing that judges are saying no. it is a bad thing, though, they
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keep coming back because it erodes the trust in the democratic process. part of what joe and we have been talking about is americans have been awash in lies and we can't do the work of madisonian democracy requires of us. with donald trump tweeting out the special grand jury's reaction is -- we know that these people are constantly trying to angle the way to pursue power and protect themselves but the ongoing affect is the erosion of the foundation of the democratic process so it's dangerous. it is dangerous. coming up, live to munich where andrea munich sat down with the vice president of the
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welcome back. as we get ready for the 30/50 sum in it abu dhabi we celebrate women over 50 who are reaching their maximum impact and success. and using it to help others. women in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. nobody does this better than our next guest. fran sene is executive vice president and chief people, policy and purpose officer at the tech giant cisco. they topped the list of 100 best companies to work for and announced second quarter results exceeded expectations proving
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companies can do good for the world and their business. fran was also an honoree on the second annual forbes know your value. congratulations. >> thank you. >> did you ever -- let's talk about this whole like over 50 thing because i feel more confident and more powerful than ever at 55. did you ever though? i have asked every woman on the list this question. did you in your 20s imagine your career would flourish at 50? >> no. part is because i didn't understand what careers were open to me. growing up my father was a grocery store manager. i knew education was important and i think the beauty is it left a lot to be explored. i think now that i am at this
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age i see two or three more chapters and inspired and passionate about that and i think about the last 24 hours not only do we have to feel this way we have to break the bias out there that tell us that we can't. >> beliefs. >> that's right. >> need to be broken. >> so ingrained. i must say i'm so glad you're doing this to show everything that women are doing and the barriers to break and live in a society that celebrates young women. >> young women are struggling. it is hard to start in careers and what i love about this, this is for young women. telling you all that you have a long runway. it will be okay. take your time. find your purpose. make the changes. you have a long time to do it. when we were in our 20s and 30s,
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fran, i don't think we knew that. >> we didn't. the other thing is there isn't one path. there's so many ways to grow and develop. the more they see role models in a corporation or externally is powerful. >> cisco works on literally connecting the world. >> that's right. >> that's what you do. i'm curious because as you delve into issues -- connecting people and connecting people on issues -- you have also played a role in major world events like jumping in on the situation in ukraine pretty shortly after the war started. you met with my brother mark in poland. >> we were there and bringing us right after the war started. the first is 2,000 employees in poland. three weeks in, we could feel
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the heaviness of what they were going through. many had already brought ukrainians in to their home so. they were suffering from a mental and financial perspective. we built the programs to support the ukrainians and themselves and their wellness. second thing is our technology in crisis can be critical in really driving the connections and communication and helping nonprofits get on the ground, scale, be at the very best. bringing technology into the welcome centers within poland. and the last thing and i think this is so very important. many of the amazing folks that came over the border were women with young children. what we recognized was providing the training, the tech training that would give them that
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financial stability in poland was incredibly important. right now within poland we train about 40,000 students and trying to get as many ukrainians into the program that we can. >> so amazing. cisco is doing that in small town usa and for the women of ukraine seeing the need. what an incredible job you have. top job at cisco and using the job to do good and promote as best you can the business. i'm curious as we are getting ready for the 30/50 summit and hoping you are coming. and you are coming. >> i am. >> cisco is presenting the international women's day award ceremony, which i'm so excited about. hillary clinton, billie jean king, malala, gloria steinem. we have an incredible stage of women who represent the fight,
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whatever that fight is for our rights, for our lives, for our ability to grow, for our ability to take care of our families and our children. i'm wondering what you're hope you will get and women will get out of this event. >> i'm inspired by the list of people who are attending. what i'm most excited about is the fact that this summit is unique and you have women at all stages of their career, some just starting, and the ability for us to come together and support one another and create this connection and these ecosystems that i think not only build amazing careers but amazing lives is everything. we're so excited from a cisco perspective to be there. >> we're excited for you to be there. thank you so much. for more information on the upcoming 30/50 summit and the 50 over 50 list, head over to forbes.com and know your value
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dotcom. there is tons of information on all of this there. still ahead on "morning joe," nearly a year after he announced he would be stepping away from acting, the family of bruce willis released an update on the beloved actor's condition. update on the beloved actor's condition. can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds.
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nearly a year after actor bruce willis was diagnosed with a cognitive disease that forced him to step away from acting, his family says he's now been diagnosed with a rare form of dementia. kaylee hartung reports. >> reporter: this morning, the family of legendary hollywood action star bruce willis sharing new details about the cruel disease they say he's battling. nearly one year after willis was diagnosed with aphasia, the disease which impacts his cognitive abilities, forcing him
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to retire from his acting career, his family says his disease has progressed. he became a bona fide star as john mcclain in the diehard franchise. and in 2015, willis shared on "today" he was checking off another bucket list item. broadway. >> i have never been on broadway. you know, as far as i'm concerned, it is the big time. >> reporter: starring in misery, an adaptation of steven king's book, now the golden globe winner is facing a different challenge off stage. this rare form of dementia affects areas of the brain associated with personality, behavior and language. it tends to occur at a younger age than other forms of dementia, the onset often between 45 and 60 years old. willis, now 67, is among the 50
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to 60,000 americans fighting it. his family saying, unfortunately challenges with communication are just one symptom of the disease bruce faces. while this is painful, it is a relief to finally have a clear diagnosis. willis's blended family has rallied around him through this difficult time. his wife emma, their two daughter, as well as his ex-wife demi moore and their daughters, writing in a statement, bruce has always found joy in life and has helped everyone he knows to do the same. it has meant the world to see that echoed back to all of us. >> sad news. we wish bruce willis and his family well. we also thank them for sharing about his condition to help people understand it more. coming up, we're going break down the report from the fulton county grand jury on the potential interference in the 2020 election. and we'll have an update on
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i'm going to fight the biden doj subpoena to appear before the grand jury because i think it's ed and unconstitutional. i stand on the constitution of the united states. in a very real sense. [ laughter ] >> you shouldn't do that. you're going to get it dirty. >> i get it. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to get up. 9:00 a.m. on the west coast. we've been up for a while. we have a lot to get to, including president biden's first extensive comments about his administration's decision to shoot down four flying objects this month. we'll have the latest for you,
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including what officials knew about mysterious objects in us air space during the trump administration. also ahead, nbc's andrea mitchell will join us fresh off her exclusive sitdown with the vice president. we'll have a first look at that interview in just a moment. later this hour we'll delve into a new report that found nearly 60% of teenage girls experience persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness in the previous year. this is a report by the cdc. it is staggering. >> it really is. you know, we had actually talked about a pandemic of mental health crisis for teenagers, especially teenage girls. it also impacts teenage boys. before covid. so covid obviously made things much worse, but make no mistake, one of the things the cdc report
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shows and something that we all know is that this has continued unabated throughout covid. this wasn't a problem that was just brought on by covid. a lot of people like to try to simplify it and say it's not the case. it's just not the case. i look forward to talking about that. also i want to bring in for one second, there's apparently a hobby club in the midwest that for some reason i'm not exactly sure, but they think, hey, it would be really cool if we launch a balloon at 20,000 feet and track it. maybe it's just me, but i'm a little concerned that jets fly around 20,000 feet. i'm not sure why they're putting balloons up there, but seems to me the white house is in sort of a no-win situation.
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if they let the objects float up there, they're hammered for that. now you watch, the same people complaining about the chinese spy balloon are going to be the same ones going, oh, i can't believe biden wasted this much money shooting down a hobbyist balloon. >> i think that's already started. someone saying those missiles used to shoot down the balloon are half a million dollars each. the same republicans voices who were in a rage because that chinese spy balloon was allowed to float over the u.s. for a few days. it does seem that these three that were shot down over canada and the northern united states were, in fact, harmless. my concern is if these were actually weather balloons, the quality of our forecasts is really going to slip. we don't know what's coming now because the president has declared war on the weather. >> i think we will learn
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something out of this. maybe congress, instead of bitching and whining and complaining about what the administration is doing and saying stupid things like shoot first, ask questions later, maybe they start passing legislation that regulates air space a little bit better to make sure that if you're launching balloons 20,000 feet in the air or other craft that could get in the way of airplanes or cause other potential threats to america's national security, like it's got to be regulated a lot better so people, whether it's commercial entities or hobbyists out of the midwest, they're not doing this. >> let's hope they start pushing some legislation. i think the bitching and moaning contingent will continue, unfortunately. but it is nice to know that hopefully these aren't spy balloons. i would rather people in the midwest just be having fun with
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a hobby. >> yeah. stay out of the air space, though. we're getting a first look at the fulton county grand jury report on potential interference in the 2020 election. three sections were unsealed yesterday. the introduction, conclusion and the section where the grand jury asserted one or more of the witnesses may have committed perjury and recommended charges be filed. the identifies of which witnesses the panel thought may have lied under oath was not revealed. the unredacted pages revealed the jury unanimously concluded there was no fraud in the 2020 election. the panel also voted to release the entire report to the public. the judge said that would not happen before the district attorney investigation is completed. the judge said a portion of the report that has not been revealed does include a list of people the jury say should be
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indicted. joining us, blayne alexander. do we know anything about the timeline for more information? >> around hire we've been kind of waiting for two shoes to drop, the first of which happened this week. that is what, if anything, we're going to see from the report. we saw those nine pages yesterday. the other thing which is the heftier shoe, if you will, is what is the d.a. going to do? what is her decision going to look like when it comes to possibly seeking indictments and who's going to face charges. that's the other thing we're waiting for. now the ball is squarely in the d.a.'s court. as for timing, we don't know, but we're potentially watching for an announcement at any moment. when we talk about this report, we only got a very small glimpse of that report yesterday. we saw kind of the bookends and
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a very short section in the middle in which the special grand jurors said, hey, some people lied and they should face consequences. the rest of the things in the report we don't know, but we do know that's been in the d.a.'s hands for quite some time. the special grand jury signed off on this back in december and they were dissolved in early january. she's had this report for quite some time. she was an integral part of this investigation, so she has a good idea of what's in that report. the question is, of course, what do those recommendations look like and will she choose to follow those. >> joining us now, chief investigative correspondent for yahoo news, michael iz cough and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. what can you glean from the portions that were released and what's your reaction to it? >> yeah. it was a little more informative
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than people have presented at first. yes, all the details are out, but the perjury is new that the grand jury recommended charges for perjury. it's also clear if you read it closely that they recommended multiple indictments of other individuals unrelated to the perjury on the core matters that were being investigated. they refer to voting on indictments, plural, and there's an appendix that lists statutes, plural, that they believe apply here, multiple statutes. you take that all together and you remember that d.a. willis, a pretty aggressive prosecutor, convened this special grand jury, she called the witnesses. it's hard to image she's not going to act on the recommendations of the grand jury she convened.
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i think we are very likely looking at criminal charges. i don't know that it's going to come in the next days or weeks. my sources tell me this could get delayed until may, possibly even later. but it's pretty clear at this point that this presents the most imminent criminal threat to donald trump as he prepares to run for president. >> for sure. >> dave aronberg, you're an active prosecutor, state attorney for palm beach county, where donald trump resides. i'm curious what was your take, what were your first impressions when you read the report yesterday. >> we didn't expect to learn much from this report and it lived up to its low expectations. there were some juicy nuggets. i think the most important part is that the grand jury unanimously found that there was no widespread election fraud. now, that's not a majority.
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that's everyone. that's important because it undercuts trump's defense. why would they put that in the report? they didn't have to. my guess is that they're recommending indictments for those who tried to overturn this free, fair and clean election. so i think that was important. also the perjury stuff is important. why should we be surprised that some of the members of trump's inner circle may have committed perjury in front of the grand jury? we're talking about rudy giuliani, who unleashed an avalanche of lies after the 2020 election, including lying in front of the georgia legislature, which i think will lead to criminal charges against him. and michael flynn was charged and plead guilty to lying to the fbi. so why should we be surprised perjury occurred? >> we had talk about the possibility of indictments for those who perjured themselves. did you see anything in the
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report that suggested this could lead to the indictment of donald trump? >> well, i think the fact that they went out of their way to say that the grand jury unanimously found that there was no widespread election fraud, i think that points to indictment of those who tried to overturn the election and who was on tape saying find me 11,780 votes? yeah, donald trump. i know donald trump says this report exonerates him. he's not in the report because his name is redacted. that's like saying if you redact the last two quarters of the super bowl, then the philadelphia eagles are the champions. i think there is trouble ahead for the president. i think the person most likely to be charged is rudy giuliani. this is far from an exoneration. i think it's quite the opposite. >> there's a dramatic new development in the proud boys
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seditious conspiracy trial. defense attorneys for five proud boys facing sedition charges in connection with the january 6th insurrection are now seeking to issue a subpoena that would compel former president trump's appearance as a witness at their trial. the attorneys are hoping trump's testimony could persuade the jury that the former president and not their clients instigated the crowd that stormed the capitol on january 6th, 2021. prosecutors contend the five proud boys induced dozens of members of the far-right group and others in the mob that day into taking action. it is still not clear if the judge will allow the subpoena. the trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment. what do you make of this? also, if they do subpoena him, must he appear, or can he get out of it like he gets out of everything? >> fair to say that his lawyers
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are going to make every effort to avoid having him to show up in that courtroom. that brings up to me what is one of the more fascinating aspects if you try to game through how the georgia case goes. assuming d.a. willis does bring indictments and donald trump is included, we can expect trump's lawyers to immediately go to federal court to try to get that case removed to federal court. that's going to be a prolonged legal battle that will go up to the supreme court. here's one that you could really have fun with and talk about for quite some time. let's say trump chooses not to show up in georgia, just says this is a radical leftist democratic prosecutor, i'm going to ignore it, i'm not going to show up in a georgia courtroom. well, what is d.a. willis's next move? the standard move in a case like
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that is you go to the governor of the state where the indicted individual resides. that's governor ron desantis. he may have to choose between whether he extradites trump to georgia to face charges or not. interesting political question that we could be speculating about for quite some time >> yes, we could be. thank you both very much for being on. a few other stories we're following this morning, a terminal at jfk airport in new york will be closed today due to electrical issues. a power outage was reported overnight and led to a small fire that was immediately extinguished. this affects the airport's ability to accept inbound and outbound flights. some flights are being diverted
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to other airports. officials says should check their flight status before arriving to jfk. >> i'm just curious, do you think that's what the problems were in miami when you sent me all of those pictures this past week? >> oh my god, i was in miami, you guys. >> every escalator you sent broken, all the walkways, broken. it's unbelievable. >> i went back to my local news roots and did man on the street interviews at miami airport. i said when do you think this people mover will be working? the guy that works at the airport goes, i don't know, never. i go thanks ron desantis. seriously. and their pay phones that you put 25 cents in at miami airport, that's how outdated it
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is. >> and of course the labels are all ripped off. >> and the ladies room, disgusting. >> i think i may for your stories on instagram, i may do a montage of this. it is really funny. unless, of course, you have to go through miami airport, it is really funny. nothing works there. everything's broken. >> like signs are falling off. i pulled a sign off the ladies room. just came right off. >> one of the unexpected story lines with "morning joe" has been mika's problems with the miami airport. >> it's disgusting. thanks, ron desantis. >> that's very funny because of course it's not ron desantis's domain, but still this is a crazy thing about it though. if you talk to anybody in
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finance, in business, in tech, they will tell you that there's been a massive migration from new york to miami over the past two or three years. miami is becoming not only the cultural center of the americas, which it's been for decades, but it's becoming a new financial center, it's becoming a new tax center, it's becoming a new center of commerce in a way that it's never been before. it's pretty crazy. the airport is a third world airport. it is absolutely horrific. >> it's always been the gateway to the u.s. from latin america. miami has exploded in terms of tech money, venture capitalist money, finance money moving from the northeast, from new york, some from california too, setting up shop in miami.
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it's glitzy and booming. you're right. governor desantis has taken credit for some of that. but the infrastructure there seems ill equipped to handle this. >> one terminal, the sky train out of service. the elevators, out of service. four banks of escalators, out of service. the people movers, out of service. >> is the fort lauderdale or west palm beach airports any better. >> you can fly into those if you want to drive to miami, that's your best bet. >> fort lauderdale, a little better. west palm is great, easy to get into it and get out. it's great. but just for people that are watching that are thinking, oh, mika is whining because she can't go on people movers. >> i don't use them.
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>> she never takes the escalators down. she's always running the stairs. so she's not complaining for herself. >> it's not for me. >> it's very hard for me to carry a suitcase and a big mac and a shake right here and fries here. when she's complaining, she's complaining for me. >> i also got a good mile run in going from one end of the firmal to the other finding all these problems and documenting them. i helped one lady with her luggage. i had a flight day from you know where and i spent the day at the miami airport. my god, i couldn't walk six feet without finding something gross or broken. there you go. >> thanks ron desantis. tesla is recalling more than
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360,000 vehicles equipped with the auto maker's full self-driving system. >> that's not good. >> it comes amid pressure from safety regulators. >> hold on. didn't we see this at the end of the silicon valley episode on apple plus where the guy gets into a self-driving car and it drives him to the dock and puts him on a ship and he ends up in china or something like that. >> no. i didn't see that one. >> maybe that was a finale i missed. >> we can thank ron desantis for this too. it comes amid pressure from the safety regulators who say the
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self-driving program can misbehave and doesn't always follow speed limits. tesla will put out a software update in the coming weeks. elon musk says he can prove cars with automatic driving systems are safer than humans. >> yeah, no. new research suggests the immunity you acquire from a covid infection is on par from the protection you get from two doses of the vaccine. scientists say infection acquired immunity can cut the risk of hospitalization and death from a reinfection by 88% for at least ten months. still, researchers say vaccines are the best way to stay safe. i was getting my first booster today. should i get it? >> you should get it. >> i'm going. coming up, we'll have more of president biden's comments on
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the chinese spy balloon and how it could impact u.s. relations with beijing. plus, new reporting on what the trump administration knew about foreign objects in our air space. and nbc's andrea mitchell joins us after sitting down with vice president kamala harris in germany. ng down with vice president kamala harris in germany.
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i believe they shot this balloon down over the water because they wanted to be able to decide what was on board that balloon and if some of it was lost at sea that they didn't want us to ever know about, that was an easy narrative that they could sell to us that they could keep as much quiet as they felt they wanted to. >> balloon truther, christy gnome. >> hey, christy, meet aaron rodgers, who's thinking these balloons are going around because of the jeffrey epstein tapes. i mean, come on. why don't you and aaron rodgers have a podcast, okay?
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it's very entertaining. >> no. it's not. >> we now have balloon truthers? >> governor gnome has apparently done her own research when it comes to the balloons. we said earlier about how some republicans just want to change the talking point to attack the administration. there's nothing the administration could do about these balloons that would satisfy them. so they, if needed, do an about face and use a nonsensical argument to claim they were trying to hide what the chinese were doing. >> it's exhausting. >> the thing is, again, the stuff just doesn't work. elise, if it worked, if there was a big enough market for stupid, i'd say okay, well, okay, go sell stupid to the
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masses. that's a 38% proposition when you want to run nationwide. >> still, there's a lot of money there, joe, a lot of votes there. there are going to be plenty of people who are going to have no problem saying things they know are patently false just to pander. >> president biden spoke extensively for the first time yesterday about his administration's decision to shoot down those flying objects earlier there month. nbc news's kristin welker has more. >> reporter: facing mounting pressure for more transparency after the u.s. shoot down a chinese spy balloon and three unidentified objects over the u.s. and canada, president biden on defense, making his first extensive remarks on the matter. >> if any object presents a threat to the safety and security of the american people, i will take it down. >> reporter: the president giving new details about the three objects over alaska, the
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canadian yukon and lake huron saying while the u.s. doesn't know exactly what they were, they do not appear to be surveillance from a foreign power. >> these three objects were most likely balloons tied to private companies, recreation or research institutions. >> reporter: the president said there is no evidence of a sharp increase in unidentified objects, explaining the u.s. is seeing more of them after enhancing its radar in the wake of the spy balloon. in an exclusive phone interview with nbc news, peter alexander pressed the president whether it was an overreaction to shoot down those three objects. the president responded, it would have been easier not to shoot them down in the face of political pressure, adding, i got a recommendation from the military. with tensions rising between the u.s. and china, the president unapologetic for shooting down
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that suspected spy balloon earlier this month, despite criticism he waited too long. >> we waited until it was safely over water, which would not only protect civilians but also enable us to recover substantial components for further analytics. and then we shot it down, sending a clear message. >> reporter: insisting the u.s. is seeking competition with china, not conflict, mr. biden also telling peter he plans to speak with chinese president xi jinping, saying, i think the last thing xi wants is to fundamentally rip the relationship with the united states and with me. >> certainly all the evidence is that china wants relations to be better. it was interesting yesterday, though, at the press conference. at the end of the press conference, biden was ready to answer questions and reporters kept shouting and screaming. he finally just gave up and walked off. >> it wasn't a great scene. the white house press pool,
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sometimes we want to question the president. it can mean shouting out a question and getting a response. the question wanted to take questions. he turned to peter alexander and wanted him to ask a question. the problem is there were some reporters from conservative outlets including from the new york post who kept shouting questions non-germane. i'll just note that the white house correspondent's association put out a statement saying this sort of behavior isn't acceptable. there is a decorum. sometimes you have to raise your voice to be heard. the president understands that. this is a moment where he was trying to take questions and frankly was rudely interrupted
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and it cost the entire press corps the ability to get answers. >> the "wall street journal" reports a small circle of intelligence officials at the pentagon during the trump administration monitored a series of mysterious objects, now suspected to be balloons, but the incidents were never reported to the white house because it wasn't clear what they were, a former u.s. official said. that seems like exactly why you would report it, but okay. pentagon intelligence analysts reached their assessment about the objects in the summer of 2020, the former official said. vice president kamala harris just sat down with andrea mitchell for an exclusive interview from the munich security conference and addressed that chinese surveillance balloon. take a look. >> why shoot first when we didn't have a policy in place? >> well, let's be clear.
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first of all, as it relates the chinese balloon, we shot it down because it needed to be shot down because we were confident that it was used by china spy on the american people. >> the president, of course, has reached out to china to talk to president xi. they have said today it was accidental, that we're overreacting, that there can't be this kind of dialogue given our reaction. >> we will maintain the perspective that we have in terms of what should be the relationship between china and the united states. that is not going to change, but surely and certainly that balloon was not helpful, which is why we shot it down. >> andrea mitchell joins us from live from munich. it's great to have you on. tell us what you heard from vice
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president kamala harris. >> reporter: on the chinese balloon, specifically saying that she does expect more dialogue and all indications are that that call between president biden and president xi is going to happen, but that the relationship is important. i asked her about the fact that there's been no military to military calls, that even during the cold war we had a hotline and there could be the severe risk of miscalculation of an accident. she said there has to be communication. it's very clear the white house believes this relationship is too important and the chinese believe that as well. wong ye, the top diplomat is here in munich and secretary blinken arrived today. there's every expectation there could be that contact between china's diplomat and secretary blinken, who of course cancelled his meeting in beijing because
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of the balloon incident. but that could happen this weekend, if not now perhaps at the g 20. >> clearly ukraine is going to factor in a huge way on the agenda, but what specifically are you hearing from your sources about any chance or hope for international coordination against the russians and their war crimes? >> reporter: that is a major focus here, elise. kamala harris talked about that. the vice president talked about the atrocities, the children. i asked her about the more than 6,000 children that according to a state department report have been abducted or sent to, quote, re-education camps. she talked about that. president zelenskyy addressed today by satellite. he was here last year just days before the war broke out. that trip he took against u.s.
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advice because he could be shot down. for the first time the russians have not been invited by the germans for this conference. the chinese are here, but the russians have not been invited. this is a united front. there's some division on sweden and finland being admitted to nato, they would be willing to split the two and let finland in first because of turkey's opposition to sweden for their own domestic reasons. that is not the u.s. position. the u.s. position is those two countries are ready for admission. it's just hungary and turkey that are objecting. >> thank you very much. we'll be watching more of your exclusive interview with vice president harris today at noon eastern right here on msnbc. joining us now u.s.
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undersecretary of defense for policy, dr. colin call. he helps guide the defense department's ukraine assistance process, which currently totals around $30 billion. it's great to have you on the show. we're at almost the one-year mark since the war began. how much assistance has the u.s. provided for ukraine? >> thanks for having me on. since the beginning of the biden administration, about $30 billion, more than $29 billion since russia invaded ukraine again last february. >> what is that in the form of? >> the prioritization has shifted as the battle has shifted. in the initial period of war, it was tanks and air defense systems. as the conflict shifted to the east, we really focused on artillery, these high mar
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systems people have talked about. in the current period of the fight we're focused on air defense and armor. >> i'm curious about the training that might be happening. also, is there too much of a delay like when you hear the intensity from the ukrainians that obviously what they need now and yet when you hear about the delivery, which you're involved with, it takes often months to get helicopters or tanks. >> obviously if you're ukraine and you're in an existential fight for the survival of your nation, you want everything and you want it right now. i will say as someone who's worked at the pentagon for a number of years, if you told me a year ago we could have delivered $29 billion of assistance to anywhere on planet earth, i would have told you you were crazy. in most instances, especially when we're drawing down from our own stocks, it's days between when the president signs that
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presidential drawdown and when stuff starts to flow into ukraine. >> two questions on future assistance. first, it would be that we know that republicans have raised concerns. how much longer will this money last? and then the concern is to get more. what do you say also to gop criticisms that this money can't be tracked how it's been used over there and they lean on the idea of corruption in kyiv? >> i'll say this. the congress has been very generous in providing assistance for ukraine in two types of buckets, the presidential drawdown that allows us to draw out of our own d.o.d. stocks and contracts for weapons. we believe we have a good amount to last us through this fiscal year. in terms of whether we can track it, sometimes you've heard that we're not going fast enough and other times you hear we're going too fast and can't keep track of
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what we're providing, so it's a little damned if you do, damned if you don't. obviously this is a war zone, so that creates some constraints. we have to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars and that's what we're doing. >> has there been a special inspector general put in place to oversee the spending? >> yes. there is an oversight process, both internal and whatever congress needs, we'll provide that information. >> undersecretary of defense for policy, drft colin call, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming up, the latest on the condition of senator john fetterman after the pennsylvania democrat checked himself into the hospital to receive treatment for clinical depression. "morning joe" will be right back. ession "morning joe" will be right back wow. request a cash offer at opendoor.com
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lomita feed is 101 years old. when covid hit, we had some challenges. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that have been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. oh booking.com, ♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah. senator john fetterman of pennsylvania is receiving treatment for clinical depression at walter reed national military medical center, a senior aide tells nbc news that the senator is dealing with now a much different situation than the aftermath of the stroke over the summer and that he will likely remain in inpatient care for a few weeks.
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nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles has the latest. >> reporter: pennsylvania senator john fetterman taking a temporary step back this morning after revealing a struggle familiar to millions of americans. the lawmaker checked himself into a hospital after being diagnosed with clinical depression. he met with the capitol physician on monday who suggests he seek care at walter reed. while john and experienced depression on and off, it only became severe in recent weeks. experts say depression is very common. >> it is the most frequent psychiatric complication from stroke. many patients experience depression. >> reporter: fetterman's announcement comes a week after being hospitalized for lightheadedness. he returned to work after a battery of tests revealed no physical problems. he has auditory and sensory
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processing issues related to the stroke. >> it's really just how things happen, because i sometimes will hear things in a way that's not perfectly clear, so i use captioning so i'm able to see what you're saying. >> reporter: while his doctors said he has no cognitive issues, the impacts of the stroke appear to have taken an emotional toll. the depression symptoms he's dealing with now are, quote, a very different beast. his colleagues and family rushing to his support. >> i think what john has done is really courageous, to step up and take care of himself. >> reporter: his wife tweeting him so proud of him for getting the care that he needs. >> he can absolutely be successfully treated for this. >> a couple of things just before we go to a break, because
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our next segment is also on mental health. i do think it was extremely courageous to check himself in. usually people with depression can be treated. it's just like any other condition. people who self-check in want to get better and get treatment and can be fully functional. people with depression can also be fully functional. he's working on feeling better. i'm not speaking directly for senator fetterman, because i don't know exactly what his situation is. but i do think shining a spotlight on checking yourself in to get the help you need should not be seen as the end of anything. it's actually very possibly a new beginning for fetterman, who clearly has been struggling for weeks. >> yeah. not even close to being the end of anything if he chooses to move forward, whatever is best
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for his mental health, whatever is best for his physical health, obviously he will do that. what a great example for millions and millions of americans. there's been such a stigma in the past about mental health and we saw in the 1972 campaign, claire mccaskill was talking about this before. thomas eagleton came out that he had had some mental health struggles. actually it was treated like a scandal. it actually badly damaged his political career. it's so good to see that in 2023 you have a sitting united states senator talking about the struggles that he's having. his colleagues and i think everybody else gathering around and supporting him. >> take it as it goes. >> it's a great, great message
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to the millions and millions of americans who are struggling with depression and feel isolated and alone and are afraid to go out and seek help. this is an example of somebody who's doing it. it could make a big difference. >> coming up we'll go through an alarming report on teenagers and their struggles with mental health. we're back after a very quick break. health we're back after a very quick break. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome
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the cdc is out with a new report on teenage mental health that finds teen girls are experiencing unprecedented levels of hopelessness and suicidal thoughts. researchers analyzed data from the youth risk behavior survey, while all teens reported increased mental health challenges, experiences of violence and suicidal thoughts, teenage girls fared worse than boys across nearly all measures.
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one in three young girls seriously considered attempting suicide. that's up nearly 60% from a decade ago. one in five experienced sexual violence, up 20% since 2017. the report also found that more than half of lgbtq students are experiencing poor mental health, and more than 20% have attempted suicide in the past year. cdc officials say quick action is needed to help save the lives of young people. joining us now, the director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university john dell vol pay. your reaction to these results and exactly how these surveys were taken give you a sense of a pretty bleak outlook and a frightening one for our young people. >> thank you, and thank you for continuing this conversation that we've had on this show now for years actually, dating back
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before the pandemic. it was something that i was struck back in 2017, 2018 when gen z was really kind of coming of age. before i could conduct a focus group on a particular issue i'd ask young people how they were doing. within the first couple of minutes of this conversation, younger people were truly telling me as an outsider about the serious concerns they had for themselves, the depression, the concern about others, you know, kind of committing suicide, and it's something that's been on the forefront of their minds now for several years or asking for help. this data is consistent with so many other pieces of data. but think about this for a second. there are about 17 million high school students across the country, right? when you're talking a third of younger women, half of those who identify as lgbtq seriously
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considered suicide. that means that there are millions of young people every single day today walking the halls of a middle school or high school college thinking about these sorts of things. we just need to elevate this conversation. and the one thing i want to also stress here is it's always been a challenge as we know to be a younger person. the world of social media hurts more than helps. what i'm finding in my surveys the concern about the political divisions in this country, the cultural wars, they're turning cultural issues into weapons of intimidation that makes all these issues. >> internet access exposes kids to so much more at such a young age. add to that social media and the stress of that. another survey reveals younger americans are more likely to report feeling depressed and anxious when compared to those in older generations.
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the study published in education week found that 66% of gen z experienced feelings of being nervous, anxious, or on edge in the past two weeks. 44% of gen z said they felt down, depressed or hopeless, more than any other group. 21% of gen z respondents had thoughts they'd be better off dead or thoughts of hurting themselves in some way. that's more than any other group in the survey, joe. >> yeah, you know, a couple of thoughts come to mind immediately. i think back to reading the 30th anniversary of rolling stone, an essay by tom wolf, and my god, that would have been i think probably 1998, and the quote still stays with me, and that is that wolf said one of the great mysteries to him was how the wealthiest generation in the
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history of human kind was also the most heavily medicated because of psychiatric challenges, and then, john, i go back to seven or eight years ago, mika and i were giving a speech at a college, we asked how are things going? what's the biggest challenge? i expected what i always get, we need funding for this program, funding for that program, and the dean of students said my biggest problem, instagram, and i'll tell you why. i go what? what are you talking about? he started talking about the women especially, the younger women, anxious, depressed, all the things that we take for granted now. this was like a canary in the coal mine. i'd never heard this before, and in the weeks and months that followed, it's all i hear. it has such a disproportionately bad impact on young women just like smoking is bad for all
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americans' health. >> that's right, joe, and ironically, and the cdc report shows that the physical characteristics, there's less drug use, less alcohol use, it's the mental health variables that are just screaming for attention. to your point about instagram, listen, instagram, youtube, snap, facebook, twitter, they know how to sell us things. those algorithms are finely tuned to deliver us what we're looking for. they could certainly play a greater role in lowering what makes people's trust, and then offering opportunities to fiend helping community when needed. >> john della volpe, thank you so much for being on. if you know someone who's experiencing a mental health crisis, please call the suicide and crisis lifeline or help yourself. the number is 988. and joe, i think this is a conversation that we need to dig deeper into, especially when it comes to young people, i'm
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seeing it. they're struggling. >> yeah, i tell you what, it was so much easier for our parents. they had their problems, obviously, with their kids, but that generation it was so much easier in so many ways, but john, alis you all have young kids. i'm sure this is something both of you are worried about every day. >> no question, whether it's phone, social media, they're so fragile, and we just have to hope for the best. >> it's just heartbreaking. my family has been personally affected by the suicide of my dear cousin as a teenager and will never recover, and so i hope that people really listen to themselves and do what they need to do and know that someone out there loves you and wants to give you help. >> thank you for sharing that. thank you so much. >> and thank you so much. and i've got to say also, mika, you know, parents can take charge. they can take
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